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Question:

This article somehow doesn’t seem all that off topic for this group, but since it doesn’t involve amps, chili or politics… HOW TO ARGUE EFFECTIVELY By Dave Barry I argue very well. Ask any of my remaining friends. I can win an argument on any topic, against any opponent. People know this and steer clear of me at parties. Often, as a sign of their great respect, they don’t even invite me. You too can win arguments. Simply follow these rules: 1. Drink liquor. Suppose you are at a party and some hotshot intellectual is expounding on the economy of Peru, a subject you know nothing about. If you’re drinking some health-fanatic drink like grapefruit juice, you’ll hang back, afraid to display your ignorance, while the hotshot enthralls your date. But if you drink several large martinis, you’ll discover you have STRONG VIEWS about the Peruvian economy. You’ll be a WEALTH of information. You’ll argue forcefully, offering searing insights and possibly upsetting furniture. People will be impressed. Some may leave the room. 2. Make things up. Suppose, in the Peruvian economy argument, you are trying to prove that Peruvians are underpaid, a position you base solely on the fact that YOU are underpaid, and you’ll be damned if you’re going to let a bunch of Peruvians be better off. DON’T say: "I think Peruvians are underpaid." Say instead: "The average Peruvian’s salary in 1981 dollars adjusted for the revised tax base is $1,452.81 per annum, which is $836.07 before the mean gross poverty level." Note: Always make up exact figures. If an opponent asks you where you got your information, make THAT up too. Say: "This information comes from Dr. Hovel T. Moon’s study for the Buford Commission published on May 9, 1982. Didn’t you read it?" Say this in the same tone of voice you would use to say, "You left your soiled underwear in my bathroom." 3. Use meaningless but weighty-sounding words and phrases. Memorize this list:     * Let me put it this way     * In terms of     * Vis-a-vis     * Per se     * As it were     * Qua     * So to speak You should also memorize some Latin abbreviations such as "Q.E.D.", "e.g.", and "i.e." These are all short for "I speak Latin, and you don’t." Here’s how to use these words and phrases. Suppose you want to say, "Peruvians would like to order appetizers more often, but they don’t have enough money." You never win arguments talking like that. But you WILL win if you say, "Let me put it this way. In terms of appetizers vis-a-vis Peruvians qua Peruvians, they would like to order them more often, so to speak, but they do not have enough money per se, as it were. Q.E.D." Only a fool would challenge that statement. 4. Use snappy and irrelevant comebacks. You need an arsenal of all-purpose irrelevant phrases to fire back at your opponents when they make valid points. The best are:     * You’re begging the question.     * You’re being defensive.     * Don’t compare apples to oranges.     * What are your parameters? This last one is especially valuable. Nobody (other than engineers and policy wonks) has the vaguest idea what "parameters" means. Don’t forget the classic: YOU’RE SO LINEAR. Here’s how to use your comebacks: You say: As Abraham Lincoln said in 1873… Your opponent says: Lincoln died in 1865. You say: You’re begging the question. – or – You say: Liberians, like most Asians… Your opponent says: Liberia is in Africa. You say: You’re being defensive. 5. Compare your opponent to Adolf Hitler. This is your heavy artillery, for when your opponent is obviously right and you are spectacularly wrong. Bring Hitler up subtly. Say, "That sounds suspiciously like something Adolf Hitler might say," or "You certainly do remind me of Adolf Hitler."

Response:

Oh man, THAT was funny- particularly appropriate for alt.guitar.amps Wheaton vs. timepxdc comes to mind. Dave Barry never fails to leave me laughing, he’s great. Thanks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > This article somehow doesn’t seem all that off topic for this group, > but since it doesn’t involve amps, chili or politics… > HOW TO ARGUE EFFECTIVELY > By Dave Barry > I argue very well. Ask any of my remaining friends. I can win an > argument on any topic, against any opponent. People know this and steer > clear of me at parties. Often, as a sign of their great respect, they > don’t even invite me. You too can win arguments. Simply follow these > rules: > 1. Drink liquor. > Suppose you are at a party and some hotshot intellectual is expounding > on the economy of Peru, a subject you know nothing about. If you’re > drinking some health-fanatic drink like grapefruit juice, you’ll hang > back, afraid to display your ignorance, while the hotshot enthralls > your date. But if you drink several large martinis, you’ll discover you > have STRONG VIEWS about the Peruvian economy. You’ll be a WEALTH of > information. You’ll argue forcefully, offering searing insights and > possibly upsetting furniture. People will be impressed. Some may leave > the room. > 2. Make things up. > Suppose, in the Peruvian economy argument, you are trying to prove that > Peruvians are underpaid, a position you base solely on the fact that > YOU are underpaid, and you’ll be damned if you’re going to let a bunch > of Peruvians be better off. DON’T say: "I think Peruvians are > underpaid." Say instead: "The average Peruvian’s salary in 1981 dollars > adjusted for the revised tax base is $1,452.81 per annum, which is > $836.07 before the mean gross poverty level." > Note: Always make up exact figures. > If an opponent asks you where you got your information, make THAT up > too. Say: "This information comes from Dr. Hovel T. Moon’s study for > the Buford Commission published on May 9, 1982. Didn’t you read it?" > Say this in the same tone of voice you would use to say, "You left your > soiled underwear in my bathroom." > 3. Use meaningless but weighty-sounding words and phrases. > Memorize this list: >     * Let me put it this way >     * In terms of >     * Vis-a-vis >     * Per se >     * As it were >     * Qua >     * So to speak > You should also memorize some Latin abbreviations such as "Q.E.D.", > "e.g.", and "i.e." These are all short for "I speak Latin, and you > don’t." > Here’s how to use these words and phrases. Suppose you want to say, > "Peruvians would like to order appetizers more often, but they don’t > have enough money." You never win arguments talking like that. But you > WILL win if you say, "Let me put it this way. In terms of appetizers > vis-a-vis Peruvians qua Peruvians, they would like to order them more > often, so to speak, but they do not have enough money per se, as it > were. Q.E.D." > Only a fool would challenge that statement. > 4. Use snappy and irrelevant comebacks. > You need an arsenal of all-purpose irrelevant phrases to fire back at > your opponents when they make valid points. The best are: >     * You’re begging the question. >     * You’re being defensive. >     * Don’t compare apples to oranges. >     * What are your parameters? > This last one is especially valuable. Nobody (other than engineers and > policy wonks) has the vaguest idea what "parameters" means. > Don’t forget the classic: YOU’RE SO LINEAR. > Here’s how to use your comebacks: > You say: As Abraham Lincoln said in 1873… > Your opponent says: Lincoln died in 1865. > You say: You’re begging the question. > – or – > You say: Liberians, like most Asians… > Your opponent says: Liberia is in Africa. > You say: You’re being defensive. > 5. Compare your opponent to Adolf Hitler. > This is your heavy artillery, for when your opponent is obviously right > and you are spectacularly wrong. Bring Hitler up subtly. Say, "That > sounds suspiciously like something Adolf Hitler might say," or "You > certainly do remind me of Adolf Hitler."

Response:

Yeah, but I miss Mike Royko.  He’d destroy the LV clan in a heartbeat and leave the rest of us rolling at the results!

Response:

Question:

Is there any way in which plants can be used on a large scale to produce energy, I was thinking about genetically engineering plant (for max yield, mass etc) and then farming energy (using a process with bees (get the bees to think they are collecting honey (behaviour mod??) and the deposited "honeycomb" could be burnt or the  chemicals extracted etc?? Could you guys at least tell me how this wouldn’t work!! Thank you

Response:

Search "biomass" I think.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is there any way in which plants can be used on a large scale to produce > energy, I was thinking about genetically engineering plant (for max yield, > mass etc) and then farming energy (using a process with bees (get the bees > to think they are collecting honey (behaviour mod??) and the deposited > "honeycomb" could be burnt or the  chemicals extracted etc?? > Could you guys at least tell me how this wouldn’t work!! > Thank you

Response:

I think I saw somewhere once that the fastest growing Plant is a Seaweed. Cultivated and messed about with, we might find a use for it? — Ashley Clarke

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is there any way in which plants can be used on a large scale to produce > energy, I was thinking about genetically engineering plant (for max yield, > mass etc) and then farming energy (using a process with bees (get the bees > to think they are collecting honey (behaviour mod??) and the deposited > "honeycomb" could be burnt or the  chemicals extracted etc?? > Could you guys at least tell me how this wouldn’t work!! > Thank you

Response:

Diatomaceous salt-water algae grow at an incredible rate and can yeld an oil capable of being converted to diesel oil, burned whole in place of most fuel oils, or thinned.  some research also suggests an algae-yeast symbiotic system can be used for direct photosynthesis to ethanol conversion.  ethanol can then be used for fuel in slightly modified gasoline engines. Fielding Isaacs

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is there any way in which plants can be used on a large scale to produce > energy, I was thinking about genetically engineering plant (for max yield, > mass etc) and then farming energy (using a process with bees (get the bees > to think they are collecting honey (behaviour mod??) and the deposited > "honeycomb" could be burnt or the  chemicals extracted etc?? > Could you guys at least tell me how this wouldn’t work!! > Thank you

Response:

Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? — Ninerfan

Response:

> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

 Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot substance and let the puppy go at it?  "tim" in "elora"

Response:

>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

First, if you have anything remotely poisonous, throw it out or give it away to somebody without pets. Then just treat it the same way you would if your pup started chewing on the coffee-table…"NO!" give him one of his own toys, "Goooood Puppy!" Make sure your puppy is supervised until he learns what is not his to chew…keep him in the same room as you unless he’s crated. Piece of cake If you have lots of plants, you could put some out of reach temporally to make it easier on you. Gooblet

Response:

:> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? :> — :> Ninerfan :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot : substance and let the puppy go at it? :  "tim" in "elora" Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described in the books I’ve listed above. — Diane Blackman To reach a goal you must set a destination.

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>>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

  We’ve had good success in discouraging plant-gnawing (not to mention furniture- and book-gnawing!) by both puppies and cats using the deterrent spray. What we do is to use rags (or cardboard covers for when we were discouraging digging in the pots). Saturate the *rag* with the deterrent and hang it from the plant or wrap it around the pot.. it holds the chemical smell much longer and eliminates the possibility of harming the plant.   I would also, however, suggest puppy-proofing! I.e. put whatever you can where the pup can’t get it… just as with a human baby, it’s best to take as much temptation as possible out of the way. Furthermore, I’d suggest investigating which of your plants might be poisonous and making damn sure they’re out of reach until the pup has matured, by which time you should have been able to train it to leave the plants alone, right? <G> Sarah (Alpha Bitch and Mamcat) Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, 1/2 OAC (formerly the book-chewing Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Wicked Cat Extrordinare (strewing of dirt from plant pots a specialty)

Response:

Hi Diane, Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come to that. A funny story here:  Last week as you all might recall I caught him digging in the pot–he left potting soil all over the damn house, and he did this 3 times, twice while we were at home!!!  Well I repotted the tree and replaced the rocks on top of the soil to discourage him from digging, and he went right back at it eating the leaves off the short part of the tree.  Last night he took *all* of them off except for 2…..well apparently, between the potting soil and the leaves, he gave himself quite a tummy ache; he’s been moping around all last night and most of today, hardly even *moves* and whimpers whenever I try to pick him up.  Maybe he’s learned his lesson? Maybe??? — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > :> > :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? I’ve > :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > :> — > :> Ninerfan > :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot > : substance and let the puppy go at it? > :  "tim" in "elora" > Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here > regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done > in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > in the books I’ve listed above. > — > Diane Blackman > To reach a goal you must set a destination.

Response:

>He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that.

If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are toxic, ever. Gooblet

Response:

My suggestion was to remove the plants to avoid developing bad habits. Allowing the plant to be destroyed will establish the habit very firmly. That there may be long periods between things to destroy will strengthen, not reduce, the habit.  Don’t let him near the tree when you can’t watch him.  Surround it with an exercise pen, or simply don’t allow him in that area when you are not also there. You can use baby gates to control his acces to different areas. When you are present you can use your voice "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant – then give him an alternative activity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

: Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come : to that.

:> :> :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? : I’ve :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone?

<snip> :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

My roommate has lots of plants.  Most are at a height the puppy can’t get to. The others we just immediatly say NO, Leave It for.  One plant in particular he wanted to get whenever he was near it.  The NO helped some and as time goes on he stops before he jumps for it and now when he just looks at it he gets a NO.  I think this helps him realize that he shouldn’t even be THINKING about biting its leaves. Good Luck Dennis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

Response:

So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it > also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this > case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like > the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that. > If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not > replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised > when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you > could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and > praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him > *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a > puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes > for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining > room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to > a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are > toxic, ever. > Gooblet

Response:

> You can use baby gates to control his > acces to different areas.

Now *that’s* a great idea!  Why didn’t I ever think of that? > When you are present you can use your voice > "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant

Well that’s the biggest part of the problem I guess–he *never* goes after things he’s not supposed to have when we’re present.  I *know* that HE KNOWS these things are bad!  So he doesn’t go after them when we’re there–only when we’re not around!  Very frustrating!!! — Ninerfan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Diane Blackman > –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – > "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation > and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the > physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The > Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM. > : Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that! (He > : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also > : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case > : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the > : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come > : to that. > :> :> > :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? > : I’ve > :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > <snip> > :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it : when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. : First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated : realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of : furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that : be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to : be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. : — : Ninerfan It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about a year, the other not until about 18 months.  I day boarded them two days a week (cut rate from the vet because they shared a kennel and he was so happy to help someone who was trying) and yes, I crated them, and later confined them to one room.  The bathroom and the kitchen are frequent choices for the adolescent dog.  The place that will make your dog feel the most comfortable is the one most occupied (i.e. most full of your scent). The book "Surviving Your Dog’s Adolescence" by Carol Lea Benjamin is full of tips for dealing the period of maturing.  You need to lerarn about "set-ups" – I already recommended two books that go over it in detail.  Try your local library.  When you start to give freedom give it in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the responsiblity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "If others’ interpretations either bother us or recur, we owe it to ourselves and our dogs to reevaluate our own orientation carefully.  If we find ourselves becoming angry and defensive, chances are our own interpretations are the incorrect ones.  "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

Response:

Thanks for explaining my "logic" so well Diane, I couldn’t have done it better…except to mention to Niner that a large crate makes a *lovely* piece of furniture. Put an end-table in storage for a year or two, and you won’t loose an inch of space. Gooblet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it >: when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. >It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. >Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and >adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about >a year, the other not until about 18 months When you start to give freedom give it >in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s >view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the >responsiblity.

Response:

Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? — Ninerfan

Response:

> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

 Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot substance and let the puppy go at it?  "tim" in "elora"

Response:

>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

First, if you have anything remotely poisonous, throw it out or give it away to somebody without pets. Then just treat it the same way you would if your pup started chewing on the coffee-table…"NO!" give him one of his own toys, "Goooood Puppy!" Make sure your puppy is supervised until he learns what is not his to chew…keep him in the same room as you unless he’s crated. Piece of cake If you have lots of plants, you could put some out of reach temporally to make it easier on you. Gooblet

Response:

:> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? :> — :> Ninerfan :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot : substance and let the puppy go at it? :  "tim" in "elora" Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described in the books I’ve listed above. — Diane Blackman To reach a goal you must set a destination.

Response:

>>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

  We’ve had good success in discouraging plant-gnawing (not to mention furniture- and book-gnawing!) by both puppies and cats using the deterrent spray. What we do is to use rags (or cardboard covers for when we were discouraging digging in the pots). Saturate the *rag* with the deterrent and hang it from the plant or wrap it around the pot.. it holds the chemical smell much longer and eliminates the possibility of harming the plant.   I would also, however, suggest puppy-proofing! I.e. put whatever you can where the pup can’t get it… just as with a human baby, it’s best to take as much temptation as possible out of the way. Furthermore, I’d suggest investigating which of your plants might be poisonous and making damn sure they’re out of reach until the pup has matured, by which time you should have been able to train it to leave the plants alone, right? <G> Sarah (Alpha Bitch and Mamcat) Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, 1/2 OAC (formerly the book-chewing Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Wicked Cat Extrordinare (strewing of dirt from plant pots a specialty)

Response:

Hi Diane, Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come to that. A funny story here:  Last week as you all might recall I caught him digging in the pot–he left potting soil all over the damn house, and he did this 3 times, twice while we were at home!!!  Well I repotted the tree and replaced the rocks on top of the soil to discourage him from digging, and he went right back at it eating the leaves off the short part of the tree.  Last night he took *all* of them off except for 2…..well apparently, between the potting soil and the leaves, he gave himself quite a tummy ache; he’s been moping around all last night and most of today, hardly even *moves* and whimpers whenever I try to pick him up.  Maybe he’s learned his lesson? Maybe??? — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > :> > :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? I’ve > :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > :> — > :> Ninerfan > :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot > : substance and let the puppy go at it? > :  "tim" in "elora" > Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here > regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done > in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > in the books I’ve listed above. > — > Diane Blackman > To reach a goal you must set a destination.

Response:

>He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that.

If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are toxic, ever. Gooblet

Response:

My suggestion was to remove the plants to avoid developing bad habits. Allowing the plant to be destroyed will establish the habit very firmly. That there may be long periods between things to destroy will strengthen, not reduce, the habit.  Don’t let him near the tree when you can’t watch him.  Surround it with an exercise pen, or simply don’t allow him in that area when you are not also there. You can use baby gates to control his acces to different areas. When you are present you can use your voice "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant – then give him an alternative activity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

: Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come : to that.

:> :> :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? : I’ve :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone?

<snip> :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

My roommate has lots of plants.  Most are at a height the puppy can’t get to. The others we just immediatly say NO, Leave It for.  One plant in particular he wanted to get whenever he was near it.  The NO helped some and as time goes on he stops before he jumps for it and now when he just looks at it he gets a NO.  I think this helps him realize that he shouldn’t even be THINKING about biting its leaves. Good Luck Dennis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

Response:

So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it > also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this > case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like > the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that. > If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not > replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised > when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you > could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and > praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him > *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a > puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes > for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining > room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to > a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are > toxic, ever. > Gooblet

Response:

> You can use baby gates to control his > acces to different areas.

Now *that’s* a great idea!  Why didn’t I ever think of that? > When you are present you can use your voice > "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant

Well that’s the biggest part of the problem I guess–he *never* goes after things he’s not supposed to have when we’re present.  I *know* that HE KNOWS these things are bad!  So he doesn’t go after them when we’re there–only when we’re not around!  Very frustrating!!! — Ninerfan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Diane Blackman > –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – > "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation > and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the > physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The > Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM. > : Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that! (He > : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also > : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case > : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the > : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come > : to that. > :> :> > :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? > : I’ve > :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > <snip> > :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it : when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. : First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated : realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of : furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that : be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to : be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. : — : Ninerfan It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about a year, the other not until about 18 months.  I day boarded them two days a week (cut rate from the vet because they shared a kennel and he was so happy to help someone who was trying) and yes, I crated them, and later confined them to one room.  The bathroom and the kitchen are frequent choices for the adolescent dog.  The place that will make your dog feel the most comfortable is the one most occupied (i.e. most full of your scent). The book "Surviving Your Dog’s Adolescence" by Carol Lea Benjamin is full of tips for dealing the period of maturing.  You need to lerarn about "set-ups" – I already recommended two books that go over it in detail.  Try your local library.  When you start to give freedom give it in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the responsiblity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "If others’ interpretations either bother us or recur, we owe it to ourselves and our dogs to reevaluate our own orientation carefully.  If we find ourselves becoming angry and defensive, chances are our own interpretations are the incorrect ones.  "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

Response:

Thanks for explaining my "logic" so well Diane, I couldn’t have done it better…except to mention to Niner that a large crate makes a *lovely* piece of furniture. Put an end-table in storage for a year or two, and you won’t loose an inch of space. Gooblet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it >: when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. >It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. >Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and >adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about >a year, the other not until about 18 months When you start to give freedom give it >in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s >view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the >responsiblity.

Response:

Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? — Ninerfan

Response:

> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

 Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot substance and let the puppy go at it?  "tim" in "elora"

Response:

>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

First, if you have anything remotely poisonous, throw it out or give it away to somebody without pets. Then just treat it the same way you would if your pup started chewing on the coffee-table…"NO!" give him one of his own toys, "Goooood Puppy!" Make sure your puppy is supervised until he learns what is not his to chew…keep him in the same room as you unless he’s crated. Piece of cake If you have lots of plants, you could put some out of reach temporally to make it easier on you. Gooblet

Response:

:> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? :> — :> Ninerfan :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot : substance and let the puppy go at it? :  "tim" in "elora" Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described in the books I’ve listed above. — Diane Blackman To reach a goal you must set a destination.

Response:

>>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

  We’ve had good success in discouraging plant-gnawing (not to mention furniture- and book-gnawing!) by both puppies and cats using the deterrent spray. What we do is to use rags (or cardboard covers for when we were discouraging digging in the pots). Saturate the *rag* with the deterrent and hang it from the plant or wrap it around the pot.. it holds the chemical smell much longer and eliminates the possibility of harming the plant.   I would also, however, suggest puppy-proofing! I.e. put whatever you can where the pup can’t get it… just as with a human baby, it’s best to take as much temptation as possible out of the way. Furthermore, I’d suggest investigating which of your plants might be poisonous and making damn sure they’re out of reach until the pup has matured, by which time you should have been able to train it to leave the plants alone, right? <G> Sarah (Alpha Bitch and Mamcat) Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, 1/2 OAC (formerly the book-chewing Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Wicked Cat Extrordinare (strewing of dirt from plant pots a specialty)

Response:

Hi Diane, Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come to that. A funny story here:  Last week as you all might recall I caught him digging in the pot–he left potting soil all over the damn house, and he did this 3 times, twice while we were at home!!!  Well I repotted the tree and replaced the rocks on top of the soil to discourage him from digging, and he went right back at it eating the leaves off the short part of the tree.  Last night he took *all* of them off except for 2…..well apparently, between the potting soil and the leaves, he gave himself quite a tummy ache; he’s been moping around all last night and most of today, hardly even *moves* and whimpers whenever I try to pick him up.  Maybe he’s learned his lesson? Maybe??? — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > :> > :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? I’ve > :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > :> — > :> Ninerfan > :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot > : substance and let the puppy go at it? > :  "tim" in "elora" > Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here > regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done > in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > in the books I’ve listed above. > — > Diane Blackman > To reach a goal you must set a destination.

Response:

>He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that.

If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are toxic, ever. Gooblet

Response:

My suggestion was to remove the plants to avoid developing bad habits. Allowing the plant to be destroyed will establish the habit very firmly. That there may be long periods between things to destroy will strengthen, not reduce, the habit.  Don’t let him near the tree when you can’t watch him.  Surround it with an exercise pen, or simply don’t allow him in that area when you are not also there. You can use baby gates to control his acces to different areas. When you are present you can use your voice "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant – then give him an alternative activity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

: Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come : to that.

:> :> :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? : I’ve :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone?

<snip> :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

My roommate has lots of plants.  Most are at a height the puppy can’t get to. The others we just immediatly say NO, Leave It for.  One plant in particular he wanted to get whenever he was near it.  The NO helped some and as time goes on he stops before he jumps for it and now when he just looks at it he gets a NO.  I think this helps him realize that he shouldn’t even be THINKING about biting its leaves. Good Luck Dennis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

Response:

So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it > also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this > case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like > the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that. > If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not > replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised > when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you > could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and > praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him > *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a > puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes > for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining > room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to > a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are > toxic, ever. > Gooblet

Response:

> You can use baby gates to control his > acces to different areas.

Now *that’s* a great idea!  Why didn’t I ever think of that? > When you are present you can use your voice > "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant

Well that’s the biggest part of the problem I guess–he *never* goes after things he’s not supposed to have when we’re present.  I *know* that HE KNOWS these things are bad!  So he doesn’t go after them when we’re there–only when we’re not around!  Very frustrating!!! — Ninerfan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Diane Blackman > –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – > "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation > and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the > physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The > Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM. > : Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that! (He > : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also > : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case > : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the > : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come > : to that. > :> :> > :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? > : I’ve > :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > <snip> > :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it : when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. : First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated : realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of : furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that : be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to : be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. : — : Ninerfan It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about a year, the other not until about 18 months.  I day boarded them two days a week (cut rate from the vet because they shared a kennel and he was so happy to help someone who was trying) and yes, I crated them, and later confined them to one room.  The bathroom and the kitchen are frequent choices for the adolescent dog.  The place that will make your dog feel the most comfortable is the one most occupied (i.e. most full of your scent). The book "Surviving Your Dog’s Adolescence" by Carol Lea Benjamin is full of tips for dealing the period of maturing.  You need to lerarn about "set-ups" – I already recommended two books that go over it in detail.  Try your local library.  When you start to give freedom give it in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the responsiblity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "If others’ interpretations either bother us or recur, we owe it to ourselves and our dogs to reevaluate our own orientation carefully.  If we find ourselves becoming angry and defensive, chances are our own interpretations are the incorrect ones.  "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

Response:

Thanks for explaining my "logic" so well Diane, I couldn’t have done it better…except to mention to Niner that a large crate makes a *lovely* piece of furniture. Put an end-table in storage for a year or two, and you won’t loose an inch of space. Gooblet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it >: when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. >It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. >Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and >adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about >a year, the other not until about 18 months When you start to give freedom give it >in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s >view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the >responsiblity.

Response:

I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig.  Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about  low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s  usefull. thank you marie

Response:

>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

Marie, I just want to steer you towards checking with Lilypons Water Gardens, because they will match up to $1,000 in donations for building a pond as a school project. Try this number 1-800-999-5459. HTHs Useful reference for Low-Maintenance Anything concerning ponds, can be found in Helen Nash’s, Low-Maintenance Water Gardens book. ~Keep ‘em Wet!~ jan/3-Cities WA Zone 6.5 Remove Z to e-mail

Response:

>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

        First off, i’d say algae is your lowest maintenence plant!  The Hearty Water Lilies are ok.  Water Hyisynth (sp) and water lettuce are good summer producers, and die in colder areas in winter.  Some water plants are aggressive growers…you’ll have to repot these, or simply pull them up often.  Go visit your local water garden farm, seed & feed, or you can get  a great catalog from many mail order houses…like Van Ness Water Gardens.  I can dig up their phone number if you want it.

Response:

Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? — Ninerfan

Response:

> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

 Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot substance and let the puppy go at it?  "tim" in "elora"

Response:

>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

First, if you have anything remotely poisonous, throw it out or give it away to somebody without pets. Then just treat it the same way you would if your pup started chewing on the coffee-table…"NO!" give him one of his own toys, "Goooood Puppy!" Make sure your puppy is supervised until he learns what is not his to chew…keep him in the same room as you unless he’s crated. Piece of cake If you have lots of plants, you could put some out of reach temporally to make it easier on you. Gooblet

Response:

:> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? :> — :> Ninerfan :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot : substance and let the puppy go at it? :  "tim" in "elora" Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described in the books I’ve listed above. — Diane Blackman To reach a goal you must set a destination.

Response:

>>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

  We’ve had good success in discouraging plant-gnawing (not to mention furniture- and book-gnawing!) by both puppies and cats using the deterrent spray. What we do is to use rags (or cardboard covers for when we were discouraging digging in the pots). Saturate the *rag* with the deterrent and hang it from the plant or wrap it around the pot.. it holds the chemical smell much longer and eliminates the possibility of harming the plant.   I would also, however, suggest puppy-proofing! I.e. put whatever you can where the pup can’t get it… just as with a human baby, it’s best to take as much temptation as possible out of the way. Furthermore, I’d suggest investigating which of your plants might be poisonous and making damn sure they’re out of reach until the pup has matured, by which time you should have been able to train it to leave the plants alone, right? <G> Sarah (Alpha Bitch and Mamcat) Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, 1/2 OAC (formerly the book-chewing Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Wicked Cat Extrordinare (strewing of dirt from plant pots a specialty)

Response:

Hi Diane, Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come to that. A funny story here:  Last week as you all might recall I caught him digging in the pot–he left potting soil all over the damn house, and he did this 3 times, twice while we were at home!!!  Well I repotted the tree and replaced the rocks on top of the soil to discourage him from digging, and he went right back at it eating the leaves off the short part of the tree.  Last night he took *all* of them off except for 2…..well apparently, between the potting soil and the leaves, he gave himself quite a tummy ache; he’s been moping around all last night and most of today, hardly even *moves* and whimpers whenever I try to pick him up.  Maybe he’s learned his lesson? Maybe??? — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > :> > :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? I’ve > :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > :> — > :> Ninerfan > :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot > : substance and let the puppy go at it? > :  "tim" in "elora" > Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here > regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done > in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > in the books I’ve listed above. > — > Diane Blackman > To reach a goal you must set a destination.

Response:

>He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that.

If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are toxic, ever. Gooblet

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My suggestion was to remove the plants to avoid developing bad habits. Allowing the plant to be destroyed will establish the habit very firmly. That there may be long periods between things to destroy will strengthen, not reduce, the habit.  Don’t let him near the tree when you can’t watch him.  Surround it with an exercise pen, or simply don’t allow him in that area when you are not also there. You can use baby gates to control his acces to different areas. When you are present you can use your voice "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant – then give him an alternative activity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

: Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come : to that.

:> :> :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? : I’ve :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone?

<snip> :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

My roommate has lots of plants.  Most are at a height the puppy can’t get to. The others we just immediatly say NO, Leave It for.  One plant in particular he wanted to get whenever he was near it.  The NO helped some and as time goes on he stops before he jumps for it and now when he just looks at it he gets a NO.  I think this helps him realize that he shouldn’t even be THINKING about biting its leaves. Good Luck Dennis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

Response:

So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it > also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this > case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like > the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that. > If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not > replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised > when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you > could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and > praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him > *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a > puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes > for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining > room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to > a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are > toxic, ever. > Gooblet

Response:

> You can use baby gates to control his > acces to different areas.

Now *that’s* a great idea!  Why didn’t I ever think of that? > When you are present you can use your voice > "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant

Well that’s the biggest part of the problem I guess–he *never* goes after things he’s not supposed to have when we’re present.  I *know* that HE KNOWS these things are bad!  So he doesn’t go after them when we’re there–only when we’re not around!  Very frustrating!!! — Ninerfan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Diane Blackman > –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – > "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation > and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the > physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The > Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM. > : Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that! (He > : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also > : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case > : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the > : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come > : to that. > :> :> > :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? > : I’ve > :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > <snip> > :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it : when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. : First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated : realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of : furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that : be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to : be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. : — : Ninerfan It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about a year, the other not until about 18 months.  I day boarded them two days a week (cut rate from the vet because they shared a kennel and he was so happy to help someone who was trying) and yes, I crated them, and later confined them to one room.  The bathroom and the kitchen are frequent choices for the adolescent dog.  The place that will make your dog feel the most comfortable is the one most occupied (i.e. most full of your scent). The book "Surviving Your Dog’s Adolescence" by Carol Lea Benjamin is full of tips for dealing the period of maturing.  You need to lerarn about "set-ups" – I already recommended two books that go over it in detail.  Try your local library.  When you start to give freedom give it in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the responsiblity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "If others’ interpretations either bother us or recur, we owe it to ourselves and our dogs to reevaluate our own orientation carefully.  If we find ourselves becoming angry and defensive, chances are our own interpretations are the incorrect ones.  "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

Response:

Thanks for explaining my "logic" so well Diane, I couldn’t have done it better…except to mention to Niner that a large crate makes a *lovely* piece of furniture. Put an end-table in storage for a year or two, and you won’t loose an inch of space. Gooblet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it >: when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. >It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. >Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and >adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about >a year, the other not until about 18 months When you start to give freedom give it >in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s >view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the >responsiblity.

Response:

I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig.  Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about  low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s  usefull. thank you marie

Response:

>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

Marie, I just want to steer you towards checking with Lilypons Water Gardens, because they will match up to $1,000 in donations for building a pond as a school project. Try this number 1-800-999-5459. HTHs Useful reference for Low-Maintenance Anything concerning ponds, can be found in Helen Nash’s, Low-Maintenance Water Gardens book. ~Keep ‘em Wet!~ jan/3-Cities WA Zone 6.5 Remove Z to e-mail

Response:

>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

        First off, i’d say algae is your lowest maintenence plant!  The Hearty Water Lilies are ok.  Water Hyisynth (sp) and water lettuce are good summer producers, and die in colder areas in winter.  Some water plants are aggressive growers…you’ll have to repot these, or simply pull them up often.  Go visit your local water garden farm, seed & feed, or you can get  a great catalog from many mail order houses…like Van Ness Water Gardens.  I can dig up their phone number if you want it.

Response:

Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? — Ninerfan

Response:

> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

 Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot substance and let the puppy go at it?  "tim" in "elora"

Response:

>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

First, if you have anything remotely poisonous, throw it out or give it away to somebody without pets. Then just treat it the same way you would if your pup started chewing on the coffee-table…"NO!" give him one of his own toys, "Goooood Puppy!" Make sure your puppy is supervised until he learns what is not his to chew…keep him in the same room as you unless he’s crated. Piece of cake If you have lots of plants, you could put some out of reach temporally to make it easier on you. Gooblet

Response:

:> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? :> — :> Ninerfan :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot : substance and let the puppy go at it? :  "tim" in "elora" Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described in the books I’ve listed above. — Diane Blackman To reach a goal you must set a destination.

Response:

>>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

  We’ve had good success in discouraging plant-gnawing (not to mention furniture- and book-gnawing!) by both puppies and cats using the deterrent spray. What we do is to use rags (or cardboard covers for when we were discouraging digging in the pots). Saturate the *rag* with the deterrent and hang it from the plant or wrap it around the pot.. it holds the chemical smell much longer and eliminates the possibility of harming the plant.   I would also, however, suggest puppy-proofing! I.e. put whatever you can where the pup can’t get it… just as with a human baby, it’s best to take as much temptation as possible out of the way. Furthermore, I’d suggest investigating which of your plants might be poisonous and making damn sure they’re out of reach until the pup has matured, by which time you should have been able to train it to leave the plants alone, right? <G> Sarah (Alpha Bitch and Mamcat) Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, 1/2 OAC (formerly the book-chewing Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Wicked Cat Extrordinare (strewing of dirt from plant pots a specialty)

Response:

Hi Diane, Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come to that. A funny story here:  Last week as you all might recall I caught him digging in the pot–he left potting soil all over the damn house, and he did this 3 times, twice while we were at home!!!  Well I repotted the tree and replaced the rocks on top of the soil to discourage him from digging, and he went right back at it eating the leaves off the short part of the tree.  Last night he took *all* of them off except for 2…..well apparently, between the potting soil and the leaves, he gave himself quite a tummy ache; he’s been moping around all last night and most of today, hardly even *moves* and whimpers whenever I try to pick him up.  Maybe he’s learned his lesson? Maybe??? — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > :> > :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? I’ve > :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > :> — > :> Ninerfan > :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot > : substance and let the puppy go at it? > :  "tim" in "elora" > Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here > regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done > in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > in the books I’ve listed above. > — > Diane Blackman > To reach a goal you must set a destination.

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>He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that.

If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are toxic, ever. Gooblet

Response:

My suggestion was to remove the plants to avoid developing bad habits. Allowing the plant to be destroyed will establish the habit very firmly. That there may be long periods between things to destroy will strengthen, not reduce, the habit.  Don’t let him near the tree when you can’t watch him.  Surround it with an exercise pen, or simply don’t allow him in that area when you are not also there. You can use baby gates to control his acces to different areas. When you are present you can use your voice "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant – then give him an alternative activity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

: Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come : to that.

:> :> :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? : I’ve :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone?

<snip> :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described :> in the books I’ve listed above.

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My roommate has lots of plants.  Most are at a height the puppy can’t get to. The others we just immediatly say NO, Leave It for.  One plant in particular he wanted to get whenever he was near it.  The NO helped some and as time goes on he stops before he jumps for it and now when he just looks at it he gets a NO.  I think this helps him realize that he shouldn’t even be THINKING about biting its leaves. Good Luck Dennis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

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So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it > also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this > case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like > the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that. > If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not > replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised > when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you > could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and > praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him > *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a > puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes > for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining > room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to > a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are > toxic, ever. > Gooblet

Response:

> You can use baby gates to control his > acces to different areas.

Now *that’s* a great idea!  Why didn’t I ever think of that? > When you are present you can use your voice > "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant

Well that’s the biggest part of the problem I guess–he *never* goes after things he’s not supposed to have when we’re present.  I *know* that HE KNOWS these things are bad!  So he doesn’t go after them when we’re there–only when we’re not around!  Very frustrating!!! — Ninerfan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Diane Blackman > –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – > "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation > and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the > physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The > Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM. > : Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that! (He > : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also > : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case > : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the > : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come > : to that. > :> :> > :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? > : I’ve > :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > <snip> > :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it : when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. : First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated : realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of : furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that : be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to : be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. : — : Ninerfan It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about a year, the other not until about 18 months.  I day boarded them two days a week (cut rate from the vet because they shared a kennel and he was so happy to help someone who was trying) and yes, I crated them, and later confined them to one room.  The bathroom and the kitchen are frequent choices for the adolescent dog.  The place that will make your dog feel the most comfortable is the one most occupied (i.e. most full of your scent). The book "Surviving Your Dog’s Adolescence" by Carol Lea Benjamin is full of tips for dealing the period of maturing.  You need to lerarn about "set-ups" – I already recommended two books that go over it in detail.  Try your local library.  When you start to give freedom give it in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the responsiblity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "If others’ interpretations either bother us or recur, we owe it to ourselves and our dogs to reevaluate our own orientation carefully.  If we find ourselves becoming angry and defensive, chances are our own interpretations are the incorrect ones.  "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

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Thanks for explaining my "logic" so well Diane, I couldn’t have done it better…except to mention to Niner that a large crate makes a *lovely* piece of furniture. Put an end-table in storage for a year or two, and you won’t loose an inch of space. Gooblet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it >: when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. >It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. >Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and >adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about >a year, the other not until about 18 months When you start to give freedom give it >in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s >view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the >responsiblity.

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I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig.  Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about  low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s  usefull. thank you marie

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>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

Marie, I just want to steer you towards checking with Lilypons Water Gardens, because they will match up to $1,000 in donations for building a pond as a school project. Try this number 1-800-999-5459. HTHs Useful reference for Low-Maintenance Anything concerning ponds, can be found in Helen Nash’s, Low-Maintenance Water Gardens book. ~Keep ‘em Wet!~ jan/3-Cities WA Zone 6.5 Remove Z to e-mail

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>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

        First off, i’d say algae is your lowest maintenence plant!  The Hearty Water Lilies are ok.  Water Hyisynth (sp) and water lettuce are good summer producers, and die in colder areas in winter.  Some water plants are aggressive growers…you’ll have to repot these, or simply pull them up often.  Go visit your local water garden farm, seed & feed, or you can get  a great catalog from many mail order houses…like Van Ness Water Gardens.  I can dig up their phone number if you want it.

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Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? — Ninerfan

Response:

> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

 Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot substance and let the puppy go at it?  "tim" in "elora"

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>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

First, if you have anything remotely poisonous, throw it out or give it away to somebody without pets. Then just treat it the same way you would if your pup started chewing on the coffee-table…"NO!" give him one of his own toys, "Goooood Puppy!" Make sure your puppy is supervised until he learns what is not his to chew…keep him in the same room as you unless he’s crated. Piece of cake If you have lots of plants, you could put some out of reach temporally to make it easier on you. Gooblet

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:> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? :> — :> Ninerfan :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot : substance and let the puppy go at it? :  "tim" in "elora" Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described in the books I’ve listed above. — Diane Blackman To reach a goal you must set a destination.

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>>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

  We’ve had good success in discouraging plant-gnawing (not to mention furniture- and book-gnawing!) by both puppies and cats using the deterrent spray. What we do is to use rags (or cardboard covers for when we were discouraging digging in the pots). Saturate the *rag* with the deterrent and hang it from the plant or wrap it around the pot.. it holds the chemical smell much longer and eliminates the possibility of harming the plant.   I would also, however, suggest puppy-proofing! I.e. put whatever you can where the pup can’t get it… just as with a human baby, it’s best to take as much temptation as possible out of the way. Furthermore, I’d suggest investigating which of your plants might be poisonous and making damn sure they’re out of reach until the pup has matured, by which time you should have been able to train it to leave the plants alone, right? <G> Sarah (Alpha Bitch and Mamcat) Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, 1/2 OAC (formerly the book-chewing Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Wicked Cat Extrordinare (strewing of dirt from plant pots a specialty)

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Hi Diane, Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come to that. A funny story here:  Last week as you all might recall I caught him digging in the pot–he left potting soil all over the damn house, and he did this 3 times, twice while we were at home!!!  Well I repotted the tree and replaced the rocks on top of the soil to discourage him from digging, and he went right back at it eating the leaves off the short part of the tree.  Last night he took *all* of them off except for 2…..well apparently, between the potting soil and the leaves, he gave himself quite a tummy ache; he’s been moping around all last night and most of today, hardly even *moves* and whimpers whenever I try to pick him up.  Maybe he’s learned his lesson? Maybe??? — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > :> > :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? I’ve > :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > :> — > :> Ninerfan > :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot > : substance and let the puppy go at it? > :  "tim" in "elora" > Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here > regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done > in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > in the books I’ve listed above. > — > Diane Blackman > To reach a goal you must set a destination.

Response:

>He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that.

If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are toxic, ever. Gooblet

Response:

My suggestion was to remove the plants to avoid developing bad habits. Allowing the plant to be destroyed will establish the habit very firmly. That there may be long periods between things to destroy will strengthen, not reduce, the habit.  Don’t let him near the tree when you can’t watch him.  Surround it with an exercise pen, or simply don’t allow him in that area when you are not also there. You can use baby gates to control his acces to different areas. When you are present you can use your voice "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant – then give him an alternative activity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

: Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come : to that.

:> :> :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? : I’ve :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone?

<snip> :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

My roommate has lots of plants.  Most are at a height the puppy can’t get to. The others we just immediatly say NO, Leave It for.  One plant in particular he wanted to get whenever he was near it.  The NO helped some and as time goes on he stops before he jumps for it and now when he just looks at it he gets a NO.  I think this helps him realize that he shouldn’t even be THINKING about biting its leaves. Good Luck Dennis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

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So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it > also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this > case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like > the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that. > If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not > replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised > when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you > could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and > praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him > *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a > puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes > for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining > room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to > a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are > toxic, ever. > Gooblet

Response:

> You can use baby gates to control his > acces to different areas.

Now *that’s* a great idea!  Why didn’t I ever think of that? > When you are present you can use your voice > "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant

Well that’s the biggest part of the problem I guess–he *never* goes after things he’s not supposed to have when we’re present.  I *know* that HE KNOWS these things are bad!  So he doesn’t go after them when we’re there–only when we’re not around!  Very frustrating!!! — Ninerfan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Diane Blackman > –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – > "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation > and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the > physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The > Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM. > : Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that! (He > : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also > : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case > : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the > : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come > : to that. > :> :> > :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? > : I’ve > :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > <snip> > :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it : when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. : First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated : realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of : furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that : be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to : be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. : — : Ninerfan It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about a year, the other not until about 18 months.  I day boarded them two days a week (cut rate from the vet because they shared a kennel and he was so happy to help someone who was trying) and yes, I crated them, and later confined them to one room.  The bathroom and the kitchen are frequent choices for the adolescent dog.  The place that will make your dog feel the most comfortable is the one most occupied (i.e. most full of your scent). The book "Surviving Your Dog’s Adolescence" by Carol Lea Benjamin is full of tips for dealing the period of maturing.  You need to lerarn about "set-ups" – I already recommended two books that go over it in detail.  Try your local library.  When you start to give freedom give it in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the responsiblity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "If others’ interpretations either bother us or recur, we owe it to ourselves and our dogs to reevaluate our own orientation carefully.  If we find ourselves becoming angry and defensive, chances are our own interpretations are the incorrect ones.  "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

Response:

Thanks for explaining my "logic" so well Diane, I couldn’t have done it better…except to mention to Niner that a large crate makes a *lovely* piece of furniture. Put an end-table in storage for a year or two, and you won’t loose an inch of space. Gooblet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it >: when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. >It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. >Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and >adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about >a year, the other not until about 18 months When you start to give freedom give it >in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s >view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the >responsiblity.

Response:

I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig.  Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about  low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s  usefull. thank you marie

Response:

>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

Marie, I just want to steer you towards checking with Lilypons Water Gardens, because they will match up to $1,000 in donations for building a pond as a school project. Try this number 1-800-999-5459. HTHs Useful reference for Low-Maintenance Anything concerning ponds, can be found in Helen Nash’s, Low-Maintenance Water Gardens book. ~Keep ‘em Wet!~ jan/3-Cities WA Zone 6.5 Remove Z to e-mail

Response:

>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

        First off, i’d say algae is your lowest maintenence plant!  The Hearty Water Lilies are ok.  Water Hyisynth (sp) and water lettuce are good summer producers, and die in colder areas in winter.  Some water plants are aggressive growers…you’ll have to repot these, or simply pull them up often.  Go visit your local water garden farm, seed & feed, or you can get  a great catalog from many mail order houses…like Van Ness Water Gardens.  I can dig up their phone number if you want it.

Response:

Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? — Ninerfan

Response:

> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

 Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot substance and let the puppy go at it?  "tim" in "elora"

Response:

>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

First, if you have anything remotely poisonous, throw it out or give it away to somebody without pets. Then just treat it the same way you would if your pup started chewing on the coffee-table…"NO!" give him one of his own toys, "Goooood Puppy!" Make sure your puppy is supervised until he learns what is not his to chew…keep him in the same room as you unless he’s crated. Piece of cake If you have lots of plants, you could put some out of reach temporally to make it easier on you. Gooblet

Response:

:> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? :> — :> Ninerfan :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot : substance and let the puppy go at it? :  "tim" in "elora" Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described in the books I’ve listed above. — Diane Blackman To reach a goal you must set a destination.

Response:

>>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

  We’ve had good success in discouraging plant-gnawing (not to mention furniture- and book-gnawing!) by both puppies and cats using the deterrent spray. What we do is to use rags (or cardboard covers for when we were discouraging digging in the pots). Saturate the *rag* with the deterrent and hang it from the plant or wrap it around the pot.. it holds the chemical smell much longer and eliminates the possibility of harming the plant.   I would also, however, suggest puppy-proofing! I.e. put whatever you can where the pup can’t get it… just as with a human baby, it’s best to take as much temptation as possible out of the way. Furthermore, I’d suggest investigating which of your plants might be poisonous and making damn sure they’re out of reach until the pup has matured, by which time you should have been able to train it to leave the plants alone, right? <G> Sarah (Alpha Bitch and Mamcat) Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, 1/2 OAC (formerly the book-chewing Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Wicked Cat Extrordinare (strewing of dirt from plant pots a specialty)

Response:

Hi Diane, Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come to that. A funny story here:  Last week as you all might recall I caught him digging in the pot–he left potting soil all over the damn house, and he did this 3 times, twice while we were at home!!!  Well I repotted the tree and replaced the rocks on top of the soil to discourage him from digging, and he went right back at it eating the leaves off the short part of the tree.  Last night he took *all* of them off except for 2…..well apparently, between the potting soil and the leaves, he gave himself quite a tummy ache; he’s been moping around all last night and most of today, hardly even *moves* and whimpers whenever I try to pick him up.  Maybe he’s learned his lesson? Maybe??? — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > :> > :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? I’ve > :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > :> — > :> Ninerfan > :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot > : substance and let the puppy go at it? > :  "tim" in "elora" > Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here > regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done > in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > in the books I’ve listed above. > — > Diane Blackman > To reach a goal you must set a destination.

Response:

>He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that.

If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are toxic, ever. Gooblet

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My suggestion was to remove the plants to avoid developing bad habits. Allowing the plant to be destroyed will establish the habit very firmly. That there may be long periods between things to destroy will strengthen, not reduce, the habit.  Don’t let him near the tree when you can’t watch him.  Surround it with an exercise pen, or simply don’t allow him in that area when you are not also there. You can use baby gates to control his acces to different areas. When you are present you can use your voice "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant – then give him an alternative activity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

: Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come : to that.

:> :> :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? : I’ve :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone?

<snip> :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

My roommate has lots of plants.  Most are at a height the puppy can’t get to. The others we just immediatly say NO, Leave It for.  One plant in particular he wanted to get whenever he was near it.  The NO helped some and as time goes on he stops before he jumps for it and now when he just looks at it he gets a NO.  I think this helps him realize that he shouldn’t even be THINKING about biting its leaves. Good Luck Dennis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

Response:

So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it > also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this > case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like > the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that. > If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not > replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised > when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you > could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and > praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him > *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a > puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes > for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining > room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to > a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are > toxic, ever. > Gooblet

Response:

> You can use baby gates to control his > acces to different areas.

Now *that’s* a great idea!  Why didn’t I ever think of that? > When you are present you can use your voice > "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant

Well that’s the biggest part of the problem I guess–he *never* goes after things he’s not supposed to have when we’re present.  I *know* that HE KNOWS these things are bad!  So he doesn’t go after them when we’re there–only when we’re not around!  Very frustrating!!! — Ninerfan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Diane Blackman > –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – > "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation > and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the > physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The > Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM. > : Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that! (He > : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also > : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case > : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the > : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come > : to that. > :> :> > :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? > : I’ve > :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > <snip> > :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it : when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. : First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated : realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of : furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that : be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to : be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. : — : Ninerfan It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about a year, the other not until about 18 months.  I day boarded them two days a week (cut rate from the vet because they shared a kennel and he was so happy to help someone who was trying) and yes, I crated them, and later confined them to one room.  The bathroom and the kitchen are frequent choices for the adolescent dog.  The place that will make your dog feel the most comfortable is the one most occupied (i.e. most full of your scent). The book "Surviving Your Dog’s Adolescence" by Carol Lea Benjamin is full of tips for dealing the period of maturing.  You need to lerarn about "set-ups" – I already recommended two books that go over it in detail.  Try your local library.  When you start to give freedom give it in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the responsiblity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "If others’ interpretations either bother us or recur, we owe it to ourselves and our dogs to reevaluate our own orientation carefully.  If we find ourselves becoming angry and defensive, chances are our own interpretations are the incorrect ones.  "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

Response:

Thanks for explaining my "logic" so well Diane, I couldn’t have done it better…except to mention to Niner that a large crate makes a *lovely* piece of furniture. Put an end-table in storage for a year or two, and you won’t loose an inch of space. Gooblet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it >: when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. >It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. >Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and >adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about >a year, the other not until about 18 months When you start to give freedom give it >in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s >view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the >responsiblity.

Response:

I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig.  Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about  low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s  usefull. thank you marie

Response:

>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

Marie, I just want to steer you towards checking with Lilypons Water Gardens, because they will match up to $1,000 in donations for building a pond as a school project. Try this number 1-800-999-5459. HTHs Useful reference for Low-Maintenance Anything concerning ponds, can be found in Helen Nash’s, Low-Maintenance Water Gardens book. ~Keep ‘em Wet!~ jan/3-Cities WA Zone 6.5 Remove Z to e-mail

Response:

>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

        First off, i’d say algae is your lowest maintenence plant!  The Hearty Water Lilies are ok.  Water Hyisynth (sp) and water lettuce are good summer producers, and die in colder areas in winter.  Some water plants are aggressive growers…you’ll have to repot these, or simply pull them up often.  Go visit your local water garden farm, seed & feed, or you can get  a great catalog from many mail order houses…like Van Ness Water Gardens.  I can dig up their phone number if you want it.

Response:

Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? — Ninerfan

Response:

> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

 Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot substance and let the puppy go at it?  "tim" in "elora"

Response:

>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

First, if you have anything remotely poisonous, throw it out or give it away to somebody without pets. Then just treat it the same way you would if your pup started chewing on the coffee-table…"NO!" give him one of his own toys, "Goooood Puppy!" Make sure your puppy is supervised until he learns what is not his to chew…keep him in the same room as you unless he’s crated. Piece of cake If you have lots of plants, you could put some out of reach temporally to make it easier on you. Gooblet

Response:

:> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? :> — :> Ninerfan :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot : substance and let the puppy go at it? :  "tim" in "elora" Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described in the books I’ve listed above. — Diane Blackman To reach a goal you must set a destination.

Response:

>>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

  We’ve had good success in discouraging plant-gnawing (not to mention furniture- and book-gnawing!) by both puppies and cats using the deterrent spray. What we do is to use rags (or cardboard covers for when we were discouraging digging in the pots). Saturate the *rag* with the deterrent and hang it from the plant or wrap it around the pot.. it holds the chemical smell much longer and eliminates the possibility of harming the plant.   I would also, however, suggest puppy-proofing! I.e. put whatever you can where the pup can’t get it… just as with a human baby, it’s best to take as much temptation as possible out of the way. Furthermore, I’d suggest investigating which of your plants might be poisonous and making damn sure they’re out of reach until the pup has matured, by which time you should have been able to train it to leave the plants alone, right? <G> Sarah (Alpha Bitch and Mamcat) Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, 1/2 OAC (formerly the book-chewing Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Wicked Cat Extrordinare (strewing of dirt from plant pots a specialty)

Response:

Hi Diane, Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come to that. A funny story here:  Last week as you all might recall I caught him digging in the pot–he left potting soil all over the damn house, and he did this 3 times, twice while we were at home!!!  Well I repotted the tree and replaced the rocks on top of the soil to discourage him from digging, and he went right back at it eating the leaves off the short part of the tree.  Last night he took *all* of them off except for 2…..well apparently, between the potting soil and the leaves, he gave himself quite a tummy ache; he’s been moping around all last night and most of today, hardly even *moves* and whimpers whenever I try to pick him up.  Maybe he’s learned his lesson? Maybe??? — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > :> > :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? I’ve > :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > :> — > :> Ninerfan > :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot > : substance and let the puppy go at it? > :  "tim" in "elora" > Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here > regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done > in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > in the books I’ve listed above. > — > Diane Blackman > To reach a goal you must set a destination.

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>He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that.

If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are toxic, ever. Gooblet

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My suggestion was to remove the plants to avoid developing bad habits. Allowing the plant to be destroyed will establish the habit very firmly. That there may be long periods between things to destroy will strengthen, not reduce, the habit.  Don’t let him near the tree when you can’t watch him.  Surround it with an exercise pen, or simply don’t allow him in that area when you are not also there. You can use baby gates to control his acces to different areas. When you are present you can use your voice "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant – then give him an alternative activity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

: Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come : to that.

:> :> :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? : I’ve :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone?

<snip> :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described :> in the books I’ve listed above.

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My roommate has lots of plants.  Most are at a height the puppy can’t get to. The others we just immediatly say NO, Leave It for.  One plant in particular he wanted to get whenever he was near it.  The NO helped some and as time goes on he stops before he jumps for it and now when he just looks at it he gets a NO.  I think this helps him realize that he shouldn’t even be THINKING about biting its leaves. Good Luck Dennis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

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So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it > also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this > case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like > the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that. > If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not > replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised > when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you > could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and > praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him > *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a > puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes > for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining > room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to > a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are > toxic, ever. > Gooblet

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> You can use baby gates to control his > acces to different areas.

Now *that’s* a great idea!  Why didn’t I ever think of that? > When you are present you can use your voice > "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant

Well that’s the biggest part of the problem I guess–he *never* goes after things he’s not supposed to have when we’re present.  I *know* that HE KNOWS these things are bad!  So he doesn’t go after them when we’re there–only when we’re not around!  Very frustrating!!! — Ninerfan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Diane Blackman > –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – > "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation > and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the > physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The > Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM. > : Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that! (He > : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also > : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case > : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the > : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come > : to that. > :> :> > :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? > : I’ve > :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > <snip> > :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > :> in the books I’ve listed above.

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: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it : when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. : First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated : realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of : furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that : be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to : be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. : — : Ninerfan It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about a year, the other not until about 18 months.  I day boarded them two days a week (cut rate from the vet because they shared a kennel and he was so happy to help someone who was trying) and yes, I crated them, and later confined them to one room.  The bathroom and the kitchen are frequent choices for the adolescent dog.  The place that will make your dog feel the most comfortable is the one most occupied (i.e. most full of your scent). The book "Surviving Your Dog’s Adolescence" by Carol Lea Benjamin is full of tips for dealing the period of maturing.  You need to lerarn about "set-ups" – I already recommended two books that go over it in detail.  Try your local library.  When you start to give freedom give it in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the responsiblity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "If others’ interpretations either bother us or recur, we owe it to ourselves and our dogs to reevaluate our own orientation carefully.  If we find ourselves becoming angry and defensive, chances are our own interpretations are the incorrect ones.  "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

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Thanks for explaining my "logic" so well Diane, I couldn’t have done it better…except to mention to Niner that a large crate makes a *lovely* piece of furniture. Put an end-table in storage for a year or two, and you won’t loose an inch of space. Gooblet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it >: when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. >It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. >Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and >adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about >a year, the other not until about 18 months When you start to give freedom give it >in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s >view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the >responsiblity.

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I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig.  Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about  low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s  usefull. thank you marie

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>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

Marie, I just want to steer you towards checking with Lilypons Water Gardens, because they will match up to $1,000 in donations for building a pond as a school project. Try this number 1-800-999-5459. HTHs Useful reference for Low-Maintenance Anything concerning ponds, can be found in Helen Nash’s, Low-Maintenance Water Gardens book. ~Keep ‘em Wet!~ jan/3-Cities WA Zone 6.5 Remove Z to e-mail

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>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

        First off, i’d say algae is your lowest maintenence plant!  The Hearty Water Lilies are ok.  Water Hyisynth (sp) and water lettuce are good summer producers, and die in colder areas in winter.  Some water plants are aggressive growers…you’ll have to repot these, or simply pull them up often.  Go visit your local water garden farm, seed & feed, or you can get  a great catalog from many mail order houses…like Van Ness Water Gardens.  I can dig up their phone number if you want it.

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Bitter Apple makes a spray specifically for plants that,when sprayed on the leaves,makes them taste VERY BAD.I have found this spray at Petsmart. Megan P.S. When you post to newsgroups(with the exception of groups that allow binaries,etc.),make sure that you take all the HTML stuff off your message,so it looks like this one.

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Well, my cat is indoors, and although I always have greens available to her year-round, she’ll still occasionally munch on a few of my plants, especially spider plants. I suppose if I cared that much about that particular plant, (in my case I don’t,) I’d use pepper spray or something like that on them.  Bitter apple, or what have you. For dangerous or valuable plants, I’ve made a special shelf in front a window, which helps a lot, and gives me much-needed plant space and looks good to boot. It’s apparently too narrow, crowded, and high up for her to want to risk jumping up on it.     Has anyone found a good way to keep your cats away from your     houseplants??  I have problems with them chewing off the leaves.. To the     best of my knowledge, in many things I have read they are not hamful so     please don’t anyone freak out about that part of it……   I just need     something to discourage them from chewing…

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Has anyone found a good way to keep your cats away from your houseplants??  I have problems with them chewing off the leaves.. To the best of my knowledge, in many things I have read they are not hamful so please don’t anyone freak out about that part of it……   I just need something to discourage them from chewing…

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Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? — Ninerfan

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> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

 Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot substance and let the puppy go at it?  "tim" in "elora"

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>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

First, if you have anything remotely poisonous, throw it out or give it away to somebody without pets. Then just treat it the same way you would if your pup started chewing on the coffee-table…"NO!" give him one of his own toys, "Goooood Puppy!" Make sure your puppy is supervised until he learns what is not his to chew…keep him in the same room as you unless he’s crated. Piece of cake If you have lots of plants, you could put some out of reach temporally to make it easier on you. Gooblet

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:> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? :> — :> Ninerfan :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot : substance and let the puppy go at it? :  "tim" in "elora" Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described in the books I’ve listed above. — Diane Blackman To reach a goal you must set a destination.

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>>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

  We’ve had good success in discouraging plant-gnawing (not to mention furniture- and book-gnawing!) by both puppies and cats using the deterrent spray. What we do is to use rags (or cardboard covers for when we were discouraging digging in the pots). Saturate the *rag* with the deterrent and hang it from the plant or wrap it around the pot.. it holds the chemical smell much longer and eliminates the possibility of harming the plant.   I would also, however, suggest puppy-proofing! I.e. put whatever you can where the pup can’t get it… just as with a human baby, it’s best to take as much temptation as possible out of the way. Furthermore, I’d suggest investigating which of your plants might be poisonous and making damn sure they’re out of reach until the pup has matured, by which time you should have been able to train it to leave the plants alone, right? <G> Sarah (Alpha Bitch and Mamcat) Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, 1/2 OAC (formerly the book-chewing Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Wicked Cat Extrordinare (strewing of dirt from plant pots a specialty)

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Hi Diane, Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come to that. A funny story here:  Last week as you all might recall I caught him digging in the pot–he left potting soil all over the damn house, and he did this 3 times, twice while we were at home!!!  Well I repotted the tree and replaced the rocks on top of the soil to discourage him from digging, and he went right back at it eating the leaves off the short part of the tree.  Last night he took *all* of them off except for 2…..well apparently, between the potting soil and the leaves, he gave himself quite a tummy ache; he’s been moping around all last night and most of today, hardly even *moves* and whimpers whenever I try to pick him up.  Maybe he’s learned his lesson? Maybe??? — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > :> > :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? I’ve > :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > :> — > :> Ninerfan > :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot > : substance and let the puppy go at it? > :  "tim" in "elora" > Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here > regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done > in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > in the books I’ve listed above. > — > Diane Blackman > To reach a goal you must set a destination.

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>He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that.

If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are toxic, ever. Gooblet

Response:

My suggestion was to remove the plants to avoid developing bad habits. Allowing the plant to be destroyed will establish the habit very firmly. That there may be long periods between things to destroy will strengthen, not reduce, the habit.  Don’t let him near the tree when you can’t watch him.  Surround it with an exercise pen, or simply don’t allow him in that area when you are not also there. You can use baby gates to control his acces to different areas. When you are present you can use your voice "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant – then give him an alternative activity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

: Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come : to that.

:> :> :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? : I’ve :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone?

<snip> :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

My roommate has lots of plants.  Most are at a height the puppy can’t get to. The others we just immediatly say NO, Leave It for.  One plant in particular he wanted to get whenever he was near it.  The NO helped some and as time goes on he stops before he jumps for it and now when he just looks at it he gets a NO.  I think this helps him realize that he shouldn’t even be THINKING about biting its leaves. Good Luck Dennis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

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So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it > also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this > case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like > the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that. > If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not > replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised > when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you > could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and > praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him > *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a > puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes > for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining > room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to > a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are > toxic, ever. > Gooblet

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> You can use baby gates to control his > acces to different areas.

Now *that’s* a great idea!  Why didn’t I ever think of that? > When you are present you can use your voice > "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant

Well that’s the biggest part of the problem I guess–he *never* goes after things he’s not supposed to have when we’re present.  I *know* that HE KNOWS these things are bad!  So he doesn’t go after them when we’re there–only when we’re not around!  Very frustrating!!! — Ninerfan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Diane Blackman > –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – > "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation > and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the > physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The > Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM. > : Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that! (He > : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also > : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case > : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the > : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come > : to that. > :> :> > :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? > : I’ve > :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > <snip> > :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it : when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. : First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated : realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of : furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that : be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to : be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. : — : Ninerfan It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about a year, the other not until about 18 months.  I day boarded them two days a week (cut rate from the vet because they shared a kennel and he was so happy to help someone who was trying) and yes, I crated them, and later confined them to one room.  The bathroom and the kitchen are frequent choices for the adolescent dog.  The place that will make your dog feel the most comfortable is the one most occupied (i.e. most full of your scent). The book "Surviving Your Dog’s Adolescence" by Carol Lea Benjamin is full of tips for dealing the period of maturing.  You need to lerarn about "set-ups" – I already recommended two books that go over it in detail.  Try your local library.  When you start to give freedom give it in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the responsiblity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "If others’ interpretations either bother us or recur, we owe it to ourselves and our dogs to reevaluate our own orientation carefully.  If we find ourselves becoming angry and defensive, chances are our own interpretations are the incorrect ones.  "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

Response:

Thanks for explaining my "logic" so well Diane, I couldn’t have done it better…except to mention to Niner that a large crate makes a *lovely* piece of furniture. Put an end-table in storage for a year or two, and you won’t loose an inch of space. Gooblet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it >: when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. >It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. >Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and >adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about >a year, the other not until about 18 months When you start to give freedom give it >in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s >view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the >responsiblity.

Response:

I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig.  Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about  low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s  usefull. thank you marie

Response:

>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

Marie, I just want to steer you towards checking with Lilypons Water Gardens, because they will match up to $1,000 in donations for building a pond as a school project. Try this number 1-800-999-5459. HTHs Useful reference for Low-Maintenance Anything concerning ponds, can be found in Helen Nash’s, Low-Maintenance Water Gardens book. ~Keep ‘em Wet!~ jan/3-Cities WA Zone 6.5 Remove Z to e-mail

Response:

>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

        First off, i’d say algae is your lowest maintenence plant!  The Hearty Water Lilies are ok.  Water Hyisynth (sp) and water lettuce are good summer producers, and die in colder areas in winter.  Some water plants are aggressive growers…you’ll have to repot these, or simply pull them up often.  Go visit your local water garden farm, seed & feed, or you can get  a great catalog from many mail order houses…like Van Ness Water Gardens.  I can dig up their phone number if you want it.

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Response:

Bitter Apple makes a spray specifically for plants that,when sprayed on the leaves,makes them taste VERY BAD.I have found this spray at Petsmart. Megan P.S. When you post to newsgroups(with the exception of groups that allow binaries,etc.),make sure that you take all the HTML stuff off your message,so it looks like this one.

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Well, my cat is indoors, and although I always have greens available to her year-round, she’ll still occasionally munch on a few of my plants, especially spider plants. I suppose if I cared that much about that particular plant, (in my case I don’t,) I’d use pepper spray or something like that on them.  Bitter apple, or what have you. For dangerous or valuable plants, I’ve made a special shelf in front a window, which helps a lot, and gives me much-needed plant space and looks good to boot. It’s apparently too narrow, crowded, and high up for her to want to risk jumping up on it.     Has anyone found a good way to keep your cats away from your     houseplants??  I have problems with them chewing off the leaves.. To the     best of my knowledge, in many things I have read they are not hamful so     please don’t anyone freak out about that part of it……   I just need     something to discourage them from chewing…

Response:

Has anyone found a good way to keep your cats away from your houseplants??  I have problems with them chewing off the leaves.. To the best of my knowledge, in many things I have read they are not hamful so please don’t anyone freak out about that part of it……   I just need something to discourage them from chewing…

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Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? — Ninerfan

Response:

> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

 Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot substance and let the puppy go at it?  "tim" in "elora"

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>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

First, if you have anything remotely poisonous, throw it out or give it away to somebody without pets. Then just treat it the same way you would if your pup started chewing on the coffee-table…"NO!" give him one of his own toys, "Goooood Puppy!" Make sure your puppy is supervised until he learns what is not his to chew…keep him in the same room as you unless he’s crated. Piece of cake If you have lots of plants, you could put some out of reach temporally to make it easier on you. Gooblet

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:> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? :> — :> Ninerfan :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot : substance and let the puppy go at it? :  "tim" in "elora" Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described in the books I’ve listed above. — Diane Blackman To reach a goal you must set a destination.

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>>Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves

  We’ve had good success in discouraging plant-gnawing (not to mention furniture- and book-gnawing!) by both puppies and cats using the deterrent spray. What we do is to use rags (or cardboard covers for when we were discouraging digging in the pots). Saturate the *rag* with the deterrent and hang it from the plant or wrap it around the pot.. it holds the chemical smell much longer and eliminates the possibility of harming the plant.   I would also, however, suggest puppy-proofing! I.e. put whatever you can where the pup can’t get it… just as with a human baby, it’s best to take as much temptation as possible out of the way. Furthermore, I’d suggest investigating which of your plants might be poisonous and making damn sure they’re out of reach until the pup has matured, by which time you should have been able to train it to leave the plants alone, right? <G> Sarah (Alpha Bitch and Mamcat) Brenin, O-NAC, S-NJC, CGC, 1/2 OAC (formerly the book-chewing Puppy From Hell) Gwydion, Wicked Cat Extrordinare (strewing of dirt from plant pots a specialty)

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Hi Diane, Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come to that. A funny story here:  Last week as you all might recall I caught him digging in the pot–he left potting soil all over the damn house, and he did this 3 times, twice while we were at home!!!  Well I repotted the tree and replaced the rocks on top of the soil to discourage him from digging, and he went right back at it eating the leaves off the short part of the tree.  Last night he took *all* of them off except for 2…..well apparently, between the potting soil and the leaves, he gave himself quite a tummy ache; he’s been moping around all last night and most of today, hardly even *moves* and whimpers whenever I try to pick him up.  Maybe he’s learned his lesson? Maybe??? — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > :> > :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? I’ve > :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > :> — > :> Ninerfan > :  Why not try soaking a few with tobasco sauce or some similarly hot > : substance and let the puppy go at it? > :  "tim" in "elora" > Some dogs (mine for one) LIKE hot sauce.  Several of us who post here > regularly have dogs who would really appreciate the nice thing you’ve done > in adding spice.   There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > in the books I’ve listed above. > — > Diane Blackman > To reach a goal you must set a destination.

Response:

>He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that.

If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are toxic, ever. Gooblet

Response:

My suggestion was to remove the plants to avoid developing bad habits. Allowing the plant to be destroyed will establish the habit very firmly. That there may be long periods between things to destroy will strengthen, not reduce, the habit.  Don’t let him near the tree when you can’t watch him.  Surround it with an exercise pen, or simply don’t allow him in that area when you are not also there. You can use baby gates to control his acces to different areas. When you are present you can use your voice "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant – then give him an alternative activity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

: Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that!  (He : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come : to that.

:> :> :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? : I’ve :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone?

<snip> :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

My roommate has lots of plants.  Most are at a height the puppy can’t get to. The others we just immediatly say NO, Leave It for.  One plant in particular he wanted to get whenever he was near it.  The NO helped some and as time goes on he stops before he jumps for it and now when he just looks at it he gets a NO.  I think this helps him realize that he shouldn’t even be THINKING about biting its leaves. Good Luck Dennis – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves?  I’ve > tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > — > Ninerfan

Response:

So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. — Ninerfan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->He destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it > also >doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this > case >it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like > the >thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come >to that. > If your puppy starts chewing the couch, will you get rid of that and not > replace it? The coffee table? The corner of the wall? Why is he unsupervised > when he does not know the rules of your home? If you were *with* him, you > could correct him when you see him thinking about chewing the plant, and > praise him for chewing one of his own toys. If you leave the room, take him > *with* you. It’s just another part of housetraining…you don’t leave a > puppy unsupervised until you know it won’t piddle in your absence, same goes > for chewing, and it doesn’t make a difference if it is a plant or the dining > room chair legs. If you leave home, confine him to a puppy proof room or to > a crate. *Please* make sure you are certain that none of your plants are > toxic, ever. > Gooblet

Response:

> You can use baby gates to control his > acces to different areas.

Now *that’s* a great idea!  Why didn’t I ever think of that? > When you are present you can use your voice > "ahchT!" to distract him when he *starts* for the plant

Well that’s the biggest part of the problem I guess–he *never* goes after things he’s not supposed to have when we’re present.  I *know* that HE KNOWS these things are bad!  So he doesn’t go after them when we’re there–only when we’re not around!  Very frustrating!!! — Ninerfan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Diane Blackman > –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – > "[It's] impossible to separate body language from the specific situation > and the emotional condition of either the sender or the recipient of the > physical cues.  This also holds true in our relationships with dogs." "The > Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM. > : Interesting suggestion, and for the most part I’ve done exactly that! (He > : destroys a plant/it doesn’t get replaced.  He destroys another one/it also > : doesn’t get replaced.  I’m about out of plants!)  Unfortunately in this case > : it’s a very large potted tree which really can’t be moved.  I don’t like the > : thought of just letting him destroy it completely, but it might indeed come > : to that. > :> :> > :> :> Any suggestions on how to stop a puppy from chewing on plant leaves? > : I’ve > :> :> tried the spray–it worked on the carpet but seems to evaporate off the > :> :> leaves, so it doesn’t last.  Anyone? > <snip> > :>    There are a variety of techniques described in "People, > :> Pooches, Problems" by Job Micheal Evans and "Good Owners, Great Dogs" by > :> Brian Kilcommons.  Still my preference is to pick my battles.  That means > :> I leave the teaching of some things to a bit later in the dogs maturity. > :> Although bad habits don’t cure themselves sometimes removing the > :> opportunity for a while allows establshing good habits and avoids > :> cementing bad ones.  Once you have a solid training/ good  manners > :> foundation you may find that – combined with maturity – changes the > :> behavior.  And if it hasn’t then you can work on that one small problem, > :> instead of trying to deal with many things at once.  You might want to > :> consider just removing the plants to allow you to focus on establishing a > :> pattern of good behavior first, then work on the kinds of setups described > :> in the books I’ve listed above.

Response:

: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it : when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. : First of all we’re talking about a 45 pound "puppy" who can’t be crated : realistically, unless we wanted to acquire another rather large piece of : furniture.  I suppose we could lock him in the bathroom all day–would that : be better?  At what point should be begin to *apply* what he is supposed to : be learning?  According to your logic, that time might never come. : — : Ninerfan It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about a year, the other not until about 18 months.  I day boarded them two days a week (cut rate from the vet because they shared a kennel and he was so happy to help someone who was trying) and yes, I crated them, and later confined them to one room.  The bathroom and the kitchen are frequent choices for the adolescent dog.  The place that will make your dog feel the most comfortable is the one most occupied (i.e. most full of your scent). The book "Surviving Your Dog’s Adolescence" by Carol Lea Benjamin is full of tips for dealing the period of maturing.  You need to lerarn about "set-ups" – I already recommended two books that go over it in detail.  Try your local library.  When you start to give freedom give it in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the responsiblity. Diane Blackman –     –    -    -    -    -    -    -     – "If others’ interpretations either bother us or recur, we owe it to ourselves and our dogs to reevaluate our own orientation carefully.  If we find ourselves becoming angry and defensive, chances are our own interpretations are the incorrect ones.  "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.

Response:

Thanks for explaining my "logic" so well Diane, I couldn’t have done it better…except to mention to Niner that a large crate makes a *lovely* piece of furniture. Put an end-table in storage for a year or two, and you won’t loose an inch of space. Gooblet – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >: So, at what point do you leave him by himself to *find out* if he’ll do it >: when you’re not there?  Sorry but your logic just does not make sense. >It depends upon the dog.  Mental maturity includes impulse control. >Impulse control is missing from children and puppies, teenagers and >adolescent dogs.  One of my dogs was essentially mentally mature at about >a year, the other not until about 18 months When you start to give freedom give it >in small pieces.  Having the whole house to take care of (from the dog’s >view) can be overwhelming.  The dog needs to mature into the >responsiblity.

Response:

I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig.  Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about  low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s  usefull. thank you marie

Response:

>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

Marie, I just want to steer you towards checking with Lilypons Water Gardens, because they will match up to $1,000 in donations for building a pond as a school project. Try this number 1-800-999-5459. HTHs Useful reference for Low-Maintenance Anything concerning ponds, can be found in Helen Nash’s, Low-Maintenance Water Gardens book. ~Keep ‘em Wet!~ jan/3-Cities WA Zone 6.5 Remove Z to e-mail

Response:

>I am helping my high school in research about the pond we are planning to dig. > Does anyone have information or know where I can get information about > low-matience plants?? I can find out how big the pond will be if that’s > usefull.

        First off, i’d say algae is your lowest maintenence plant!  The Hearty Water Lilies are ok.  Water Hyisynth (sp) and water lettuce are good summer producers, and die in colder areas in winter.  Some water plants are aggressive growers…you’ll have to repot these, or simply pull them up often.  Go visit your local water garden farm, seed & feed, or you can get  a great catalog from many mail order houses…like Van Ness Water Gardens.  I can dig up their phone number if you want it.

Response:

Question:

> One thing not mentioned: the squat toilets are actually quite hygienic. No > matter what the "hole" looks like, your ass never comes into contact with a > toilet seat because there isn’t a toilet seat.

But there is always a possibility of stepping into the hole.

Response:

> One thing not mentioned: the squat toilets > are actually quite hygienic. No matter what > the "hole" looks like, your ass never comes > into contact with a toilet seat because there > isn’t a toilet seat.

I mentioned it, but I guess nobody noticed. The main problem with these toilets, as I see it, is that they require squatting in a way that puts a lot of stress on the knees, and for people who aren’t in sufficiently good shape, this can be a serious problem. Having a seat relieves the mechanical stress on the knees.

Response:

One thing not mentioned: the squat toilets are actually quite hygienic. No matter what the "hole" looks like, your ass never comes into contact with a toilet seat because there isn’t a toilet seat. These toilets also exist in some areas of Taiwan (although same principle, they are slightly different in style).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Toilets at last, what a relief > Just when you think you’ve finally found the toilets, there’s only a > black hole in the white floor. Welcome to French toilets (or Turkish > toilets, as the French call them), probably the most reviled piece of > French furniture. Men can use the hole as an urinal, but for the rest > it remains a problem. > How to use French toilets > 1. Close the door and look for a dry place to put your toilet paper. > 2. Drop your pants just far enough, keep them up as high as possible. > The floor is mostly filthy and wet. > 3. Take a seat with your face towards the door. In the floor you’ll > find two steps to put your feets on. > 4. Squat! That means: knees and upper body to the front, and put your > bottom backwards. Sometimes there are ’stirrups’ to grab with your > hands, to help keep your balance. > 5. just for the gentlemen: use a hand to point Percy at the porcelain. > Let’s not be too shy to talk about this – you don’t want to wet your > trousers and shoes. > 6. Do what you have to do and clean your bottom. > 7. Put on your clothes again and take your time to let that fade > grimace from your face. > 8. Don’t flush just yet. These toilets have the habit of spraying lots > of water over a much larger area than just the toilet to make it clean > (mm, clean, anyway, the floor is getting wet). You risk wet feet. So, > open the door and flush while you step out. > I wondered why France, specifically Paris, stunk so much. Lots of misses!!! > Dan

At least those ultra-smelly "pissoirs" are disappearing.  One thing that I’ve always wondered about.  Why do we, in the USA, make in so difficult to relieve ourselves.  There are virtually no public facilities in our cities.  Most European cities have public, albeit a litle gross, toilets.  I take a deep breath, hold it (my breath too) make my way to the toilet and if I’m doing number one I don’t look down. I don’t do number two in Europes’ public WC’s.  Only in hotels, museums, private homes, and some restaurants. BTW re the orignal posters instructions ROTFLOL. Gary Nichols

Response:

> Why do we, in the USA, make in so difficult to > relieve ourselves.  There are virtually no public > facilities in our cities.

I’ve wondered the same thing. I do know that, in some cases, special-interest groups have blocked public facilities.  For example, the city of New York wanted to install Sanisettes (the self-cleaning street toilets popular in Paris), and a test installation of a number of Sanisettes showed them to be an enormous success.  However, the wheelchair lobby in NYC pointed to a very bizarre law requiring absolutely equal access for all disabled people (which in practice seems to mean only people in wheelchairs, since that’s the group that constantly insists on expenditures), and insisted that all Sanisettes be wheelchair friendly.  This required much larger Sanisettes, with no time limit on usage, and that encouraged drug dealers to use them as meeting places. Additionally, NYC ended up having to provide a human _attendant_ at each Sanisette just in case a wheelchair-bound person wanted to use it. Essentially, the wheelchair lobby made it so difficult and expensive to install Sanisettes that the project was abandoned. Some other cities have adopted Sanisettes, though (I’ve heard San Francisco mentioned a lot).  They are much preferable to many types of public toilets, IMO, since they are very clean when properly maintained. > Most European cities have public, albeit a > litle gross, toilets.

Paris has, in addition to Sanisettes, a fair number of very clean public toilets, usually in M

Question:

> Watching the troops storm Saddams palaces, one news commentator was > talking about the paranoia Saddam has about germs,and how horrified he > would be knowing that the troops who have not had showers for over 25 > days were now taking showers inside his palace bathrooms. > Poetic justice don’t you think ?   .

Dontcha love it!   I am so proud of our young people.  What a great bunch of young men and women! Ryan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Watching the troops storm Saddams palaces, one news commentator was > > talking about the paranoia Saddam has about germs,and how horrified he > > would be knowing that the troops who have not had showers for over 25 > > days were now taking showers inside his palace bathrooms. > > Poetic justice don’t you think ?   . > This is totally off-topic so I really shouldn’t respond, but has anyone else > noticed how totally empty all these palaces are that keep getting stormed. > Did Sadman remove all his belongings before the invasion, thus suggesting he > thought he might loose, or did they never have much by the way of contents. >     Good questions.  Some are suggesting he never actually intended upon > using them for living in, merely that he was using them as cover for > military activites.  (Remember, at one time he wanted his palaces listed > as off limits for inspections).  Others suggest he’s taken it all with > him to where ever he went.  Of course at this point some are suggesting > that where he went, you can’t take it with you.

Several years ago I went to a private residence of a Pakistani living here in the U.S. He lived alone in a new house that was 27,000 square feet – it looked similar to Saddam’s palaces. Lots of big open space and lots of gold plated plumbing fixtures. He took me on a tour of the house and there wasn’t any room with much furniture. Even the bedroom had one dresser and a king-sized bed – In a bedroom of about 2000 square feet. It was a strange feeling. But, I suspect you’re right, Saddam’s palaces were more "other use" facilities rather than residences.

Response:

>You’re right, it’s completely off topic.

Not really.  I like airports that offer showers for arriving passengers.

Response:

You’re right, it’s completely off topic.

Response:

> > Watching the troops storm Saddams palaces, one news commentator was > talking about the paranoia Saddam has about germs,and how horrified he > would be knowing that the troops who have not had showers for over 25 > days were now taking showers inside his palace bathrooms. > Poetic justice don’t you think ?   . > This is totally off-topic so I really shouldn’t respond, but has anyone else > noticed how totally empty all these palaces are that keep getting stormed. > Did Sadman remove all his belongings before the invasion, thus suggesting he > thought he might loose, or did they never have much by the way of contents.

    Good questions.  Some are suggesting he never actually intended upon using them for living in, merely that he was using them as cover for military activites.  (Remember, at one time he wanted his palaces listed as off limits for inspections).  Others suggest he’s taken it all with him to where ever he went.  Of course at this point some are suggesting that where he went, you can’t take it with you.

Response:

Watching the troops storm Saddams palaces, one news commentator was talking about the paranoia Saddam has about germs,and how horrified he would be knowing that the troops who have not had showers for over 25 days were now taking showers inside his palace bathrooms. Poetic justice don’t you think ?   .

Response:

> Watching the troops storm Saddams palaces, one news commentator was > talking about the paranoia Saddam has about germs,and how horrified he > would be knowing that the troops who have not had showers for over 25 > days were now taking showers inside his palace bathrooms. > Poetic justice don’t you think ?   .

This is totally off-topic so I really shouldn’t respond, but has anyone else noticed how totally empty all these palaces are that keep getting stormed. Did Sadman remove all his belongings before the invasion, thus suggesting he thought he might loose, or did they never have much by the way of contents.

Response:

Question:

We’re buying a house and hope to move next month.  Anybody have any advice on making this less stressful for our three cats? The cats are rather elderly – two are 15 and the other is 13. Thanks in advance. Kent

Response:

> We’re buying a house and hope to move next month.  Anybody have any advice > on making this less stressful for our three cats? > The cats are rather elderly – two are 15 and the other is 13.

I’ve had to move more than a few times with my two older cats now.  If you can set up a room in your new house with some familiar furniture in it before you bring the cats over, it helps a lot.  Try to keep them shut up in a room by themselves while the moving crew is busy, both in the old house and the new.  My two get a little anxious as they see all the furniture disappearing from the old house, but again it helps if they have at least some familiar stuff left behind until it’s time to take them over to the new place.  If you would have to leave them alone for extended periods of time while you are busy seeing to moving, it might be better to board them for a few days instead so they are completely away from the confusion. One of my cats is very curious and will quickly explore and make herself at home, while the other one is a ‘fraidy cat and prefers to spend most of his time hiding under the bed or behind the sofa or in a closet for the first couple days, until things settle down from the moving and unpacking.  I’ve put the litter boxes and food dishes in their permanent locations right away, and just given the cats a guided tour of the house to show them where the important places are, and even the shy guy has been able to catch on quickly (even if he heads right back under the bed afterwards). -Sandra

Response:

I’ve moved my cats several times, the last time 9 years ago when they were 4, 5 and about 12.  You need to be very careful that they don’t run out in the confusion of the move so I put them in their travel cases and into the bathroom.  One time one of the movers, an idiot, let them out of their cases and I was lucky I didn’t lose them.  When I asked him why he did that he said he felt sorry for them. When all the furniture is out the cats go in the car with me to the new residence and again into the bathroom in their cases until all the stuff is moved in.  Then I open the cases and they come wandering out, the furniture is the same, they walk around and seem to settle right in.  It helps that they are indoor cats. Good luck with your move, Barb

Response:

Thanks Sandra and Barb.  I should have mentioned that they are strictly indoor cats (though they like to give us heart attacks by running out between our legs sometimes when we open a door). Kent

Response:

We’re buying a house and hope to move next month.  Anybody have any advice on making this less stressful for our three cats? The cats are rather elderly – two are 15 and the other is 13. Thanks in advance. Kent

Response:

> We’re buying a house and hope to move next month.  Anybody have any advice > on making this less stressful for our three cats? > The cats are rather elderly – two are 15 and the other is 13.

I’ve had to move more than a few times with my two older cats now.  If you can set up a room in your new house with some familiar furniture in it before you bring the cats over, it helps a lot.  Try to keep them shut up in a room by themselves while the moving crew is busy, both in the old house and the new.  My two get a little anxious as they see all the furniture disappearing from the old house, but again it helps if they have at least some familiar stuff left behind until it’s time to take them over to the new place.  If you would have to leave them alone for extended periods of time while you are busy seeing to moving, it might be better to board them for a few days instead so they are completely away from the confusion. One of my cats is very curious and will quickly explore and make herself at home, while the other one is a ‘fraidy cat and prefers to spend most of his time hiding under the bed or behind the sofa or in a closet for the first couple days, until things settle down from the moving and unpacking.  I’ve put the litter boxes and food dishes in their permanent locations right away, and just given the cats a guided tour of the house to show them where the important places are, and even the shy guy has been able to catch on quickly (even if he heads right back under the bed afterwards). -Sandra

Response:

I’ve moved my cats several times, the last time 9 years ago when they were 4, 5 and about 12.  You need to be very careful that they don’t run out in the confusion of the move so I put them in their travel cases and into the bathroom.  One time one of the movers, an idiot, let them out of their cases and I was lucky I didn’t lose them.  When I asked him why he did that he said he felt sorry for them. When all the furniture is out the cats go in the car with me to the new residence and again into the bathroom in their cases until all the stuff is moved in.  Then I open the cases and they come wandering out, the furniture is the same, they walk around and seem to settle right in.  It helps that they are indoor cats. Good luck with your move, Barb

Response:

Thanks Sandra and Barb.  I should have mentioned that they are strictly indoor cats (though they like to give us heart attacks by running out between our legs sometimes when we open a door). Kent

Response:

We’re buying a house and hope to move next month.  Anybody have any advice on making this less stressful for our three cats? The cats are rather elderly – two are 15 and the other is 13. Thanks in advance. Kent

Response:

> We’re buying a house and hope to move next month.  Anybody have any advice > on making this less stressful for our three cats? > The cats are rather elderly – two are 15 and the other is 13.

I’ve had to move more than a few times with my two older cats now.  If you can set up a room in your new house with some familiar furniture in it before you bring the cats over, it helps a lot.  Try to keep them shut up in a room by themselves while the moving crew is busy, both in the old house and the new.  My two get a little anxious as they see all the furniture disappearing from the old house, but again it helps if they have at least some familiar stuff left behind until it’s time to take them over to the new place.  If you would have to leave them alone for extended periods of time while you are busy seeing to moving, it might be better to board them for a few days instead so they are completely away from the confusion. One of my cats is very curious and will quickly explore and make herself at home, while the other one is a ‘fraidy cat and prefers to spend most of his time hiding under the bed or behind the sofa or in a closet for the first couple days, until things settle down from the moving and unpacking.  I’ve put the litter boxes and food dishes in their permanent locations right away, and just given the cats a guided tour of the house to show them where the important places are, and even the shy guy has been able to catch on quickly (even if he heads right back under the bed afterwards). -Sandra

Response:

I’ve moved my cats several times, the last time 9 years ago when they were 4, 5 and about 12.  You need to be very careful that they don’t run out in the confusion of the move so I put them in their travel cases and into the bathroom.  One time one of the movers, an idiot, let them out of their cases and I was lucky I didn’t lose them.  When I asked him why he did that he said he felt sorry for them. When all the furniture is out the cats go in the car with me to the new residence and again into the bathroom in their cases until all the stuff is moved in.  Then I open the cases and they come wandering out, the furniture is the same, they walk around and seem to settle right in.  It helps that they are indoor cats. Good luck with your move, Barb

Response:

Thanks Sandra and Barb.  I should have mentioned that they are strictly indoor cats (though they like to give us heart attacks by running out between our legs sometimes when we open a door). Kent

Response:

Question:

Instead of a garage, my suggestion is a spare bedroom, preferably with an attached bathroom where you can put the litterbox. I’ve converted my guest bedroom into a ‘new cat room’. I confine a new cat to that area until it is cleared healthwise, and until I see how well it is doing in a home environment. To be honest, I’ve never had any problems with kittens before, even stray ones. They always knew how to use the litter box (make sure the kitten is old enough when you adopt it i.e. ideally 10-12 weeks) and spend the majority of the time while I’m at work sleeping, reserving their bad habits till I came home

Response:

> Really, if all of these issues are that big a deal for you, I wonder if a > kitten is the right choice.  Kittens are like toddlers.  They have endless > energy and curiosity, and they get into things and climb things and knock > things over unless you do a stellar job of kitten-proofing.

This is mostly true for me.  Mason is a wild man and gets into everything.  He is very willful and wants to be involved in everything that’s going on, right down to eating what I eat and getting in the shower with me.  It’s very cute and fun but also tiring. I let Mason have the run of the house from Day One.  I fed him right away when I brought him home.  When he was finished, I took him straight to the litter box.  He used it immediately and has never missed– he loves indoor plumbing. Aside from getting in the garbage can, and being a pest attacking the big kitties and wanting to wrestle them even when they are sleeping, he is fine.  No problems around the house at all.  He’s a great addition to my family and 100% wonderful.  Yes, I get a little neurotic worrying about him, but he’s totally relaxed, so at least one of us is… Ray (who has the cutest kitten in the world sleeping on the ol’ lap right now)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where > to scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, > for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be > about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on > what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in > it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a > power cord, ect. > So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much > light will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I > shoudl have one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around > garage door that let in some light but not sure if enough for the > kitten to see. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~ > If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do > you want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if > you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog. You can’t train a cat to > do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want > because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you > lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality.

Personally, I think it’s great that he’s trying to be informed before making the decision. I wish more people would.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where > to scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, > for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be > about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on > what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in > it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a > power cord, ect. > So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much > light will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I > shoudl have one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around > garage door that let in some light but not sure if enough for the > kitten to see. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~ > If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do > you want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if > you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog. You can’t train a cat to > do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want > because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you > lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality.

Sorry, I see some others said the same thing and I don’t want to come across as ganging up on anyone. Ignore my other post.

Response:

>You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do,

….but we *can* bribe them to do some of the things we want them to do! Phil. — "Cats are a great warm-up to a successful marriage;      they teach you your place in the household".                            –Paul Gallaco      Feline Healthcare: http://maxshouse.com

Response:

>This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >where do you house the kitten while you are at work ??

When I had the three foster kittens with me, they had to stay shut in the bathroom with their mom all day because they were still (more or less) milking and their mom was aggressive with my cats. When I was at home, they had the whole house to explore (LOL as if it was big ) ). Since I already had cats, the house was full of scratchable things, and what I saw is that, without any training on my side, the kittens just preferred scratching posts to furniture. So I never had one claw problem with the kitten I kept, and her brother/sister were given away with a mini scratching post (the cheap cardboard things you buy in packs of 3) and they successfully used them in their new houses too…

Response:

>I have been pretty much told I will be the cat person she will be the >baby person when the baby comes. But lets be honest name me one father >who does not want to spend time with his new baby also ??

An ex colleague of mine found a kitten a few weeks after his baby girl was born. He brought him home, seriously intentioned to have him adopted by someone else. First thing the kitten did was to climb into the baby’s cradle. If you took him away, kitten cried, baby cried. No use to say that they grew up together like twins, with no stress at all on their parents side (apart from having the baby understand the difference between real and plush cat )

Response:

I have been pretty much told I will be the cat person she will be the baby person when the baby comes. But lets be honest name me one father who does not want to spend time with his new baby also ?? I hoping I don’t neglect the cat and have even started rethinking on waiting on the cat for a few more years to ensure the cat gets proper attention. Or like many of you have said, get 2 and they will take care of themselves pretty much J~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Yes, it would be wise to have the training by the time the baby comes. > Your wife will be totally focused on her new baby. > Bill >thank you for your support. I will be honest I am new at this, I did >have cats growing up but my mom pretty much took care of them and I >traveled a lot so I only played and feed them, was not involved in >training them. >I will rethink the one or two cat thing, but I am thinking the wife will >probably not work after the baby so it will be easier to train the new >cat at that time, but to be honest, hope it would be done by then. >J~ >>>>ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, >>>>and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where >>>>to scratch instead of declawing it. >>>>This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >>>>where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I >>>>both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, >>>>for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be >>>>about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on >>>>what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in >>>>it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a >>>>power cord, ect. >>>>Thanks again for help/opinions. >>>>J~ >>>If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you > want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had a > Canary or a Gekko or even a dog.. You can’t train a cat to do anything it > doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to please > you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a > cat type personality. >>On the other hand, he said that this will be the first time for him and >>he is asking questions first.  It may be that he simply doesn’t know how >>to care for a cat but is willing to learn.  He has probably heard about >>putting puppies in a large crate.  I remember when I got my first cat >>(many years ago).  I had always had dogs and loved them.  I certainly >>did not dislike cats, but I hadn’t given much thought to them because we >>never had one at home.  I considered myself "a dog person."  Then I >>moved across several states for graduate school and was going to be >>entirely alone for the first time in my life.  I wanted a companion, but >>a dog was not practical in an apartment (or so I thought at that time). >>So, I decided to try a cat "because it would be easier."  Then I learned >>that some feral cats were about to be destroyed, so I decided to take a >>big leap and adopt one of them.  My neighbor helped me trap one, and off >>we went across the country.  It was quite a learning experience for a >>"newbie" to cats, but it was one of the most positive experiences of my >>life.  My cat was feral, so it took about 2 years before he truly >>bonded; but he became an absolutely wonderful friend and companion.  He >>was not declawed, and it really wasn’t difficult to teach him to use a >>scratching post, even under those circumstances.  The result is that I >>soon learned that I am also "a cat person."  That cat lived to be almost >>20 years of age, my next cat lived to be 16, and now I have Holly >>(currently aged 6-1/2).  They became my babies, my loves.  So let’s give >>the person who wrote this message a similar opportunity and help with >>the learning process because he really does sound interested.  For >>example, he started out asking about declawing but has now decided not >>to declaw, based on responses from this newsgroup. >>MaryL

Response:

thank you for your support. I will be honest I am new at this, I did have cats growing up but my mom pretty much took care of them and I traveled a lot so I only played and feed them, was not involved in training them. I will rethink the one or two cat thing, but I am thinking the wife will probably not work after the baby so it will be easier to train the new cat at that time, but to be honest, hope it would be done by then. J~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, >>and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where >>to scratch instead of declawing it. >>This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >>where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I >>both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, >>for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be >>about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on >>what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in >>it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a >>power cord, ect. >>Thanks again for help/opinions. >>J~ >If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog.. You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality. > On the other hand, he said that this will be the first time for him and > he is asking questions first.  It may be that he simply doesn’t know how > to care for a cat but is willing to learn.  He has probably heard about > putting puppies in a large crate.  I remember when I got my first cat > (many years ago).  I had always had dogs and loved them.  I certainly > did not dislike cats, but I hadn’t given much thought to them because we > never had one at home.  I considered myself "a dog person."  Then I > moved across several states for graduate school and was going to be > entirely alone for the first time in my life.  I wanted a companion, but > a dog was not practical in an apartment (or so I thought at that time). > So, I decided to try a cat "because it would be easier."  Then I learned > that some feral cats were about to be destroyed, so I decided to take a > big leap and adopt one of them.  My neighbor helped me trap one, and off > we went across the country.  It was quite a learning experience for a > "newbie" to cats, but it was one of the most positive experiences of my > life.  My cat was feral, so it took about 2 years before he truly > bonded; but he became an absolutely wonderful friend and companion.  He > was not declawed, and it really wasn’t difficult to teach him to use a > scratching post, even under those circumstances.  The result is that I > soon learned that I am also "a cat person."  That cat lived to be almost > 20 years of age, my next cat lived to be 16, and now I have Holly > (currently aged 6-1/2).  They became my babies, my loves.  So let’s give > the person who wrote this message a similar opportunity and help with > the learning process because he really does sound interested.  For > example, he started out asking about declawing but has now decided not > to declaw, based on responses from this newsgroup. > MaryL

Response:

Yes, it would be wise to have the training by the time the baby comes. Your wife will be totally focused on her new baby. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > thank you for your support. I will be honest I am new at this, I did > have cats growing up but my mom pretty much took care of them and I > traveled a lot so I only played and feed them, was not involved in > training them. > I will rethink the one or two cat thing, but I am thinking the wife will > probably not work after the baby so it will be easier to train the new > cat at that time, but to be honest, hope it would be done by then. > J~ >>>ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, >>>and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where >>>to scratch instead of declawing it. >>>This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >>>where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I >>>both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, >>>for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be >>>about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on >>>what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in >>>it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a >>>power cord, ect. >>>Thanks again for help/opinions. >>>J~ >>If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you

want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog.. You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On the other hand, he said that this will be the first time for him and > he is asking questions first.  It may be that he simply doesn’t know how > to care for a cat but is willing to learn.  He has probably heard about > putting puppies in a large crate.  I remember when I got my first cat > (many years ago).  I had always had dogs and loved them.  I certainly > did not dislike cats, but I hadn’t given much thought to them because we > never had one at home.  I considered myself "a dog person."  Then I > moved across several states for graduate school and was going to be > entirely alone for the first time in my life.  I wanted a companion, but > a dog was not practical in an apartment (or so I thought at that time). > So, I decided to try a cat "because it would be easier."  Then I learned > that some feral cats were about to be destroyed, so I decided to take a > big leap and adopt one of them.  My neighbor helped me trap one, and off > we went across the country.  It was quite a learning experience for a > "newbie" to cats, but it was one of the most positive experiences of my > life.  My cat was feral, so it took about 2 years before he truly > bonded; but he became an absolutely wonderful friend and companion.  He > was not declawed, and it really wasn’t difficult to teach him to use a > scratching post, even under those circumstances.  The result is that I > soon learned that I am also "a cat person."  That cat lived to be almost > 20 years of age, my next cat lived to be 16, and now I have Holly > (currently aged 6-1/2).  They became my babies, my loves.  So let’s give > the person who wrote this message a similar opportunity and help with > the learning process because he really does sound interested.  For > example, he started out asking about declawing but has now decided not > to declaw, based on responses from this newsgroup. > MaryL

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where > to scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, > for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be > about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on > what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in > it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a > power cord, ect. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~ > If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog. You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality.

On the other hand, he said that this will be the first time for him and he is asking questions first.  It may be that he simply doesn’t know how to care for a cat but is willing to learn.  He has probably heard about putting puppies in a large crate.  I remember when I got my first cat (many years ago).  I had always had dogs and loved them.  I certainly did not dislike cats, but I hadn’t given much thought to them because we never had one at home.  I considered myself "a dog person."  Then I moved across several states for graduate school and was going to be entirely alone for the first time in my life.  I wanted a companion, but a dog was not practical in an apartment (or so I thought at that time). So, I decided to try a cat "because it would be easier."  Then I learned that some feral cats were about to be destroyed, so I decided to take a big leap and adopt one of them.  My neighbor helped me trap one, and off we went across the country.  It was quite a learning experience for a "newbie" to cats, but it was one of the most positive experiences of my life.  My cat was feral, so it took about 2 years before he truly bonded; but he became an absolutely wonderful friend and companion.  He was not declawed, and it really wasn’t difficult to teach him to use a scratching post, even under those circumstances.  The result is that I soon learned that I am also "a cat person."  That cat lived to be almost 20 years of age, my next cat lived to be 16, and now I have Holly (currently aged 6-1/2).  They became my babies, my loves.  So let’s give the person who wrote this message a similar opportunity and help with the learning process because he really does sound interested.  For example, he started out asking about declawing but has now decided not to declaw, based on responses from this newsgroup. MaryL

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I did just pick up the cats for dummies books and if I was paying more attention when growing up I probably would know this stuff but did not and I feel this groups has a vast amount of experience that will be very helpful. J~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I >both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, for >lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be about >8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on what is >acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in it the >house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a power >cord, ect. >    Well, my boys had immediate full run of the house.  However, > my fiance and I also both took a week of vacation to bond with the > kittens and be around and get them settled in.  If this is something > you are willing to consider, I would very highly suggest it — because > we took the time to bond with them, our cats are extremely > affectionate and confident.  We never had a litterbox accident, never > had a furniture incident, nothing.  You also may want to consider the > fact that kittens don’t respond to moving litterboxes very well, they > *are* just babies and they get confused. >    Really, pens are for puppies, who not only do not have the > bladder control of kittens but who require a whole other set of house > skills.  The vast majority of kittens do just fine without being > confined.  If you *must* confine, use a bathroom and leave the light > on. >    You might want to get a few books on kittens and cats.  I > bought these, and found them to be very useful.  Both are available > from Amazon. >    Communicating With Your Cat by J. Anne Helgren  (this is a > wonderful book on feline behaviour, which really helps you understand > your cat and what she is trying to tell you) >    Cats for Dummies by Gina Spadafori  (this covers just about > everything in cat ownership, from choosing the cat you bring home to > kitten-proofing, feeding, vet care, etc.) > Orchid

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???? This is a kitten, not a hamster.  Assuming the kitten is 8 weeks old or more I would- and always have- just let them have the run of the house while I am out.  I never heard of caging a pet kitten.  (I have heard of crating  dogs while the owners are out.) Barb

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This reminds me of the time a lady came to my father’s tv shop and told him about her new born kittens.  There were 3 or 4 and she described them all.  So, my father said he would take one (our cat’s best friend had been run over and she needed someone to get her out of the depression). The lady brought him early a few days later and my father had no place to keep him at work so the kitten was left to wander around the shop and work bench. He had to be rescued a few times or he would have stepped on a soldering iron or walked into a tv’s flyback (high voltage thingy). Finally, he was brought home at lunch hour.  So tiny, like a hamster, he was taken from his mom too early (he pooped in my lap). My father still has him but now the cat is really huge, like a small melon (and the cat who he was supposed to be a companion to, she died a few years ago) . CPS.

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I wouldn’t recommend keeping the kitten in the garage.. I suggest keeping her in a bathroom for only the first week when you are not home.  But if she seems curious and confident I wouldn’t confine her. Make sure you put a cat bed in the bathroom (can use a wicker basket) and put a shirt with your scent in the cat bed.  Make sure the cat bed is nice a cozy.  I tend to add a stuffed animal so they have something to snuggle with. While you are out if you absolutely feel the need to restrict try for your bedroom, so that s/he learns how to cuddle up with you on the bed it will become his/her nesting room. I’m no expert at this but this is what I have has worked in the past for me. Fuga

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> ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where to > scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ??

In the house.  I’d start her off in one room for a few days until she gets her bearings, and then let her have the run of the house. > My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, for > lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be about > 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on what is > acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in it the > house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a power > cord, ect.

Okay, first off I think a better idea than confining the kitten to the garage, is to take some essential steps re: kitten proofing your house.  Get the power cords out of the way where she can’t get to them, or better yet buy those rubber thingies that you encase power cords in so that they can’t be chewed through.  Put a few scratching posts around the house, the best ones are covered with sisal rope, and also get one or two of those inexpensive cardboard floor scratching mats in case she prefers to scratch horizontally.  Show her where the posts are and how to scratch on them and praise her lavishly while she uses them.  She’ll catch on very quickly.  Put a couple of litterboxes where she can easily get to them and show her where they are.  She’ll catch on to this quickly as well. Really, if all of these issues are that big a deal for you, I wonder if a kitten is the right choice.  Kittens are like toddlers.  They have endless energy and curiosity, and they get into things and climb things and knock things over unless you do a stellar job of kitten-proofing.  I love kittens and am in the middle of raising one that came to me as a rescue, but I have to admit that she occasionally drives me batty, just like a small child would.  But confining a kitten in a pen in the garage isn’t a very good solution any more than confining a toddler would be.  Maybe you need to seriously think about adopting an adult cat that has already gone through the kitten phase and settled down, and that you won’t have to worry about while you’re away from home.  There are plenty of adult cats out there who need homes; if you only want one, then look for one that needs to be in a single-cat home.  There’s plenty of those, too.  Otherwise, find a pair. That’s another thing about kittens (and a lot of cats) – they do a lot better if they have companionship, especially if they are left home alone all day.  I really try as much as possible to encourage people to adopt kittens in pairs.  They are happier with another cat in the house, plus, two kittens are no more trouble than one and they are twice the fun.

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>I did just pick up the cats for dummies books and if I was paying more >attention when growing up I probably would know this stuff but did not >and I feel this groups has a vast amount of experience that will be very >helpful. >J~

We closed all the doors to the bedrooms, bath, laundry and left them have the run of the living room and kitchen…..we put fuzzy blankets in their favorite chair for napping, toys around the room, scratching posts of various types and an old rug they love to scratch. They did fine. Karryl "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former." — – Albert Einstein

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>>I did just pick up the cats for dummies books and if I was paying more >attention when growing up I probably would know this stuff but did not >and I feel this groups has a vast amount of experience that will be very >helpful. >We closed all the doors to the bedrooms, bath, laundry and left them >have the run of the living room and kitchen…..we put fuzzy blankets >in their favorite chair for napping, toys around the room, scratching >posts of various types and an old rug they love to scratch. >They did fine.

Yes, I would recommend shutting them *out* of where they shouldn’t go rather than shutting them *in* to somewhere.  Close off the room with the china ornaments and keep the door to the room with the litter box open.   Later, when you’ve secured the breakables, just leave them with everything open. Oh, er, I mean "he" or "she."  (But two really *is* better!) Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where > to scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, > for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be > about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on > what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in > it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a > power cord, ect. > So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much > light will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I > shoudl have one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around > garage door that let in some light but not sure if enough for the > kitten to see. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~

If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog. You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where > to scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, > for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be > about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on > what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in > it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a > power cord, ect. > So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much > light will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I > shoudl have one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around > garage door that let in some light but not sure if enough for the > kitten to see. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~ >If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you

want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had >>a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog. You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to >>please you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality. I think this is a bit unfair. I think he is just thinking ahead and planning and inexperienced. This is not really a bad thing. Karen

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Assuming you’ll be getting a kitten that is at least 8 weeks old, an 8×10 pen is probably too small a space for it to be confined during the day while you’re away. It’s just as easy just to park your cars outside the garage for two or three weeks and kitten-proof the garage.  It shouldn’t take any longer than that to see what the cat’s behavior pattern is.  Most garages have an overhead light.  Just leave it on during the day. This would probably be a good place to introduce a scratching post and a scratching mat (some cats prefer to scratch horizontally).  If the cat is allowed outside, it will tend to prefer to do it’s scratching there, tree trunks usually being the preferred choice. Using the litter box should be less of a problem.  Cats naturally prefer to scratch around in something loose to find a spot to go to the bathroom unless they have a medical problem or are unhappy about something.  Buy two litter boxes because cats sometimes prefer to pee in one and poop in the other. If the furniture is really more important than the cat, perhaps you should consider adopting an adult cat that has already been declawed from a rescue group. Good luck. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where to > scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, for > lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be about > 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on what is > acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in it the > house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a power > cord, ect. > So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much light > will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I shoudl have > one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around garage door that > let in some light but not sure if enough for the kitten to see. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~

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>This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I >both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, for >lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be about >8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on what is >acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in it the >house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a power >cord, ect.

        Well, my boys had immediate full run of the house.  However, my fiance and I also both took a week of vacation to bond with the kittens and be around and get them settled in.  If this is something you are willing to consider, I would very highly suggest it — because we took the time to bond with them, our cats are extremely affectionate and confident.  We never had a litterbox accident, never had a furniture incident, nothing.  You also may want to consider the fact that kittens don’t respond to moving litterboxes very well, they *are* just babies and they get confused.         Really, pens are for puppies, who not only do not have the bladder control of kittens but who require a whole other set of house skills.  The vast majority of kittens do just fine without being confined.  If you *must* confine, use a bathroom and leave the light on.         You might want to get a few books on kittens and cats.  I bought these, and found them to be very useful.  Both are available from Amazon.         Communicating With Your Cat by J. Anne Helgren  (this is a wonderful book on feline behaviour, which really helps you understand your cat and what she is trying to tell you)         Cats for Dummies by Gina Spadafori  (this covers just about everything in cat ownership, from choosing the cat you bring home to kitten-proofing, feeding, vet care, etc.) Orchid

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ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where to scratch instead of declawing it. This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a power cord, ect. So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much light will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I shoudl have one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around garage door that let in some light but not sure if enough for the kitten to see. Thanks again for help/opinions. J~

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Instead of a garage, my suggestion is a spare bedroom, preferably with an attached bathroom where you can put the litterbox. I’ve converted my guest bedroom into a ‘new cat room’. I confine a new cat to that area until it is cleared healthwise, and until I see how well it is doing in a home environment. To be honest, I’ve never had any problems with kittens before, even stray ones. They always knew how to use the litter box (make sure the kitten is old enough when you adopt it i.e. ideally 10-12 weeks) and spend the majority of the time while I’m at work sleeping, reserving their bad habits till I came home

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> Really, if all of these issues are that big a deal for you, I wonder if a > kitten is the right choice.  Kittens are like toddlers.  They have endless > energy and curiosity, and they get into things and climb things and knock > things over unless you do a stellar job of kitten-proofing.

This is mostly true for me.  Mason is a wild man and gets into everything.  He is very willful and wants to be involved in everything that’s going on, right down to eating what I eat and getting in the shower with me.  It’s very cute and fun but also tiring. I let Mason have the run of the house from Day One.  I fed him right away when I brought him home.  When he was finished, I took him straight to the litter box.  He used it immediately and has never missed– he loves indoor plumbing. Aside from getting in the garbage can, and being a pest attacking the big kitties and wanting to wrestle them even when they are sleeping, he is fine.  No problems around the house at all.  He’s a great addition to my family and 100% wonderful.  Yes, I get a little neurotic worrying about him, but he’s totally relaxed, so at least one of us is… Ray (who has the cutest kitten in the world sleeping on the ol’ lap right now)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where > to scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, > for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be > about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on > what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in > it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a > power cord, ect. > So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much > light will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I > shoudl have one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around > garage door that let in some light but not sure if enough for the > kitten to see. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~ > If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do > you want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if > you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog. You can’t train a cat to > do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want > because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you > lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality.

Personally, I think it’s great that he’s trying to be informed before making the decision. I wish more people would.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where > to scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, > for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be > about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on > what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in > it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a > power cord, ect. > So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much > light will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I > shoudl have one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around > garage door that let in some light but not sure if enough for the > kitten to see. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~ > If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do > you want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if > you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog. You can’t train a cat to > do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want > because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you > lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality.

Sorry, I see some others said the same thing and I don’t want to come across as ganging up on anyone. Ignore my other post.

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>You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do,

….but we *can* bribe them to do some of the things we want them to do! Phil. — "Cats are a great warm-up to a successful marriage;      they teach you your place in the household".                            –Paul Gallaco      Feline Healthcare: http://maxshouse.com

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>This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >where do you house the kitten while you are at work ??

When I had the three foster kittens with me, they had to stay shut in the bathroom with their mom all day because they were still (more or less) milking and their mom was aggressive with my cats. When I was at home, they had the whole house to explore (LOL as if it was big ) ). Since I already had cats, the house was full of scratchable things, and what I saw is that, without any training on my side, the kittens just preferred scratching posts to furniture. So I never had one claw problem with the kitten I kept, and her brother/sister were given away with a mini scratching post (the cheap cardboard things you buy in packs of 3) and they successfully used them in their new houses too…

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>I have been pretty much told I will be the cat person she will be the >baby person when the baby comes. But lets be honest name me one father >who does not want to spend time with his new baby also ??

An ex colleague of mine found a kitten a few weeks after his baby girl was born. He brought him home, seriously intentioned to have him adopted by someone else. First thing the kitten did was to climb into the baby’s cradle. If you took him away, kitten cried, baby cried. No use to say that they grew up together like twins, with no stress at all on their parents side (apart from having the baby understand the difference between real and plush cat )

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I have been pretty much told I will be the cat person she will be the baby person when the baby comes. But lets be honest name me one father who does not want to spend time with his new baby also ?? I hoping I don’t neglect the cat and have even started rethinking on waiting on the cat for a few more years to ensure the cat gets proper attention. Or like many of you have said, get 2 and they will take care of themselves pretty much J~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Yes, it would be wise to have the training by the time the baby comes. > Your wife will be totally focused on her new baby. > Bill >thank you for your support. I will be honest I am new at this, I did >have cats growing up but my mom pretty much took care of them and I >traveled a lot so I only played and feed them, was not involved in >training them. >I will rethink the one or two cat thing, but I am thinking the wife will >probably not work after the baby so it will be easier to train the new >cat at that time, but to be honest, hope it would be done by then. >J~ >>>>ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, >>>>and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where >>>>to scratch instead of declawing it. >>>>This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >>>>where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I >>>>both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, >>>>for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be >>>>about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on >>>>what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in >>>>it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a >>>>power cord, ect. >>>>Thanks again for help/opinions. >>>>J~ >>>If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you > want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had a > Canary or a Gekko or even a dog.. You can’t train a cat to do anything it > doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to please > you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a > cat type personality. >>On the other hand, he said that this will be the first time for him and >>he is asking questions first.  It may be that he simply doesn’t know how >>to care for a cat but is willing to learn.  He has probably heard about >>putting puppies in a large crate.  I remember when I got my first cat >>(many years ago).  I had always had dogs and loved them.  I certainly >>did not dislike cats, but I hadn’t given much thought to them because we >>never had one at home.  I considered myself "a dog person."  Then I >>moved across several states for graduate school and was going to be >>entirely alone for the first time in my life.  I wanted a companion, but >>a dog was not practical in an apartment (or so I thought at that time). >>So, I decided to try a cat "because it would be easier."  Then I learned >>that some feral cats were about to be destroyed, so I decided to take a >>big leap and adopt one of them.  My neighbor helped me trap one, and off >>we went across the country.  It was quite a learning experience for a >>"newbie" to cats, but it was one of the most positive experiences of my >>life.  My cat was feral, so it took about 2 years before he truly >>bonded; but he became an absolutely wonderful friend and companion.  He >>was not declawed, and it really wasn’t difficult to teach him to use a >>scratching post, even under those circumstances.  The result is that I >>soon learned that I am also "a cat person."  That cat lived to be almost >>20 years of age, my next cat lived to be 16, and now I have Holly >>(currently aged 6-1/2).  They became my babies, my loves.  So let’s give >>the person who wrote this message a similar opportunity and help with >>the learning process because he really does sound interested.  For >>example, he started out asking about declawing but has now decided not >>to declaw, based on responses from this newsgroup. >>MaryL

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thank you for your support. I will be honest I am new at this, I did have cats growing up but my mom pretty much took care of them and I traveled a lot so I only played and feed them, was not involved in training them. I will rethink the one or two cat thing, but I am thinking the wife will probably not work after the baby so it will be easier to train the new cat at that time, but to be honest, hope it would be done by then. J~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, >>and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where >>to scratch instead of declawing it. >>This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >>where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I >>both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, >>for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be >>about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on >>what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in >>it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a >>power cord, ect. >>Thanks again for help/opinions. >>J~ >If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog.. You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality. > On the other hand, he said that this will be the first time for him and > he is asking questions first.  It may be that he simply doesn’t know how > to care for a cat but is willing to learn.  He has probably heard about > putting puppies in a large crate.  I remember when I got my first cat > (many years ago).  I had always had dogs and loved them.  I certainly > did not dislike cats, but I hadn’t given much thought to them because we > never had one at home.  I considered myself "a dog person."  Then I > moved across several states for graduate school and was going to be > entirely alone for the first time in my life.  I wanted a companion, but > a dog was not practical in an apartment (or so I thought at that time). > So, I decided to try a cat "because it would be easier."  Then I learned > that some feral cats were about to be destroyed, so I decided to take a > big leap and adopt one of them.  My neighbor helped me trap one, and off > we went across the country.  It was quite a learning experience for a > "newbie" to cats, but it was one of the most positive experiences of my > life.  My cat was feral, so it took about 2 years before he truly > bonded; but he became an absolutely wonderful friend and companion.  He > was not declawed, and it really wasn’t difficult to teach him to use a > scratching post, even under those circumstances.  The result is that I > soon learned that I am also "a cat person."  That cat lived to be almost > 20 years of age, my next cat lived to be 16, and now I have Holly > (currently aged 6-1/2).  They became my babies, my loves.  So let’s give > the person who wrote this message a similar opportunity and help with > the learning process because he really does sound interested.  For > example, he started out asking about declawing but has now decided not > to declaw, based on responses from this newsgroup. > MaryL

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Yes, it would be wise to have the training by the time the baby comes. Your wife will be totally focused on her new baby. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > thank you for your support. I will be honest I am new at this, I did > have cats growing up but my mom pretty much took care of them and I > traveled a lot so I only played and feed them, was not involved in > training them. > I will rethink the one or two cat thing, but I am thinking the wife will > probably not work after the baby so it will be easier to train the new > cat at that time, but to be honest, hope it would be done by then. > J~ >>>ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, >>>and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where >>>to scratch instead of declawing it. >>>This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >>>where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I >>>both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, >>>for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be >>>about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on >>>what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in >>>it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a >>>power cord, ect. >>>Thanks again for help/opinions. >>>J~ >>If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you

want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog.. You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On the other hand, he said that this will be the first time for him and > he is asking questions first.  It may be that he simply doesn’t know how > to care for a cat but is willing to learn.  He has probably heard about > putting puppies in a large crate.  I remember when I got my first cat > (many years ago).  I had always had dogs and loved them.  I certainly > did not dislike cats, but I hadn’t given much thought to them because we > never had one at home.  I considered myself "a dog person."  Then I > moved across several states for graduate school and was going to be > entirely alone for the first time in my life.  I wanted a companion, but > a dog was not practical in an apartment (or so I thought at that time). > So, I decided to try a cat "because it would be easier."  Then I learned > that some feral cats were about to be destroyed, so I decided to take a > big leap and adopt one of them.  My neighbor helped me trap one, and off > we went across the country.  It was quite a learning experience for a > "newbie" to cats, but it was one of the most positive experiences of my > life.  My cat was feral, so it took about 2 years before he truly > bonded; but he became an absolutely wonderful friend and companion.  He > was not declawed, and it really wasn’t difficult to teach him to use a > scratching post, even under those circumstances.  The result is that I > soon learned that I am also "a cat person."  That cat lived to be almost > 20 years of age, my next cat lived to be 16, and now I have Holly > (currently aged 6-1/2).  They became my babies, my loves.  So let’s give > the person who wrote this message a similar opportunity and help with > the learning process because he really does sound interested.  For > example, he started out asking about declawing but has now decided not > to declaw, based on responses from this newsgroup. > MaryL

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where > to scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, > for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be > about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on > what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in > it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a > power cord, ect. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~ > If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog. You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality.

On the other hand, he said that this will be the first time for him and he is asking questions first.  It may be that he simply doesn’t know how to care for a cat but is willing to learn.  He has probably heard about putting puppies in a large crate.  I remember when I got my first cat (many years ago).  I had always had dogs and loved them.  I certainly did not dislike cats, but I hadn’t given much thought to them because we never had one at home.  I considered myself "a dog person."  Then I moved across several states for graduate school and was going to be entirely alone for the first time in my life.  I wanted a companion, but a dog was not practical in an apartment (or so I thought at that time). So, I decided to try a cat "because it would be easier."  Then I learned that some feral cats were about to be destroyed, so I decided to take a big leap and adopt one of them.  My neighbor helped me trap one, and off we went across the country.  It was quite a learning experience for a "newbie" to cats, but it was one of the most positive experiences of my life.  My cat was feral, so it took about 2 years before he truly bonded; but he became an absolutely wonderful friend and companion.  He was not declawed, and it really wasn’t difficult to teach him to use a scratching post, even under those circumstances.  The result is that I soon learned that I am also "a cat person."  That cat lived to be almost 20 years of age, my next cat lived to be 16, and now I have Holly (currently aged 6-1/2).  They became my babies, my loves.  So let’s give the person who wrote this message a similar opportunity and help with the learning process because he really does sound interested.  For example, he started out asking about declawing but has now decided not to declaw, based on responses from this newsgroup. MaryL

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I did just pick up the cats for dummies books and if I was paying more attention when growing up I probably would know this stuff but did not and I feel this groups has a vast amount of experience that will be very helpful. J~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I >both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, for >lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be about >8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on what is >acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in it the >house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a power >cord, ect. >    Well, my boys had immediate full run of the house.  However, > my fiance and I also both took a week of vacation to bond with the > kittens and be around and get them settled in.  If this is something > you are willing to consider, I would very highly suggest it — because > we took the time to bond with them, our cats are extremely > affectionate and confident.  We never had a litterbox accident, never > had a furniture incident, nothing.  You also may want to consider the > fact that kittens don’t respond to moving litterboxes very well, they > *are* just babies and they get confused. >    Really, pens are for puppies, who not only do not have the > bladder control of kittens but who require a whole other set of house > skills.  The vast majority of kittens do just fine without being > confined.  If you *must* confine, use a bathroom and leave the light > on. >    You might want to get a few books on kittens and cats.  I > bought these, and found them to be very useful.  Both are available > from Amazon. >    Communicating With Your Cat by J. Anne Helgren  (this is a > wonderful book on feline behaviour, which really helps you understand > your cat and what she is trying to tell you) >    Cats for Dummies by Gina Spadafori  (this covers just about > everything in cat ownership, from choosing the cat you bring home to > kitten-proofing, feeding, vet care, etc.) > Orchid

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???? This is a kitten, not a hamster.  Assuming the kitten is 8 weeks old or more I would- and always have- just let them have the run of the house while I am out.  I never heard of caging a pet kitten.  (I have heard of crating  dogs while the owners are out.) Barb

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This reminds me of the time a lady came to my father’s tv shop and told him about her new born kittens.  There were 3 or 4 and she described them all.  So, my father said he would take one (our cat’s best friend had been run over and she needed someone to get her out of the depression). The lady brought him early a few days later and my father had no place to keep him at work so the kitten was left to wander around the shop and work bench. He had to be rescued a few times or he would have stepped on a soldering iron or walked into a tv’s flyback (high voltage thingy). Finally, he was brought home at lunch hour.  So tiny, like a hamster, he was taken from his mom too early (he pooped in my lap). My father still has him but now the cat is really huge, like a small melon (and the cat who he was supposed to be a companion to, she died a few years ago) . CPS.

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I wouldn’t recommend keeping the kitten in the garage.. I suggest keeping her in a bathroom for only the first week when you are not home.  But if she seems curious and confident I wouldn’t confine her. Make sure you put a cat bed in the bathroom (can use a wicker basket) and put a shirt with your scent in the cat bed.  Make sure the cat bed is nice a cozy.  I tend to add a stuffed animal so they have something to snuggle with. While you are out if you absolutely feel the need to restrict try for your bedroom, so that s/he learns how to cuddle up with you on the bed it will become his/her nesting room. I’m no expert at this but this is what I have has worked in the past for me. Fuga

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> ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where to > scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ??

In the house.  I’d start her off in one room for a few days until she gets her bearings, and then let her have the run of the house. > My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, for > lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be about > 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on what is > acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in it the > house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a power > cord, ect.

Okay, first off I think a better idea than confining the kitten to the garage, is to take some essential steps re: kitten proofing your house.  Get the power cords out of the way where she can’t get to them, or better yet buy those rubber thingies that you encase power cords in so that they can’t be chewed through.  Put a few scratching posts around the house, the best ones are covered with sisal rope, and also get one or two of those inexpensive cardboard floor scratching mats in case she prefers to scratch horizontally.  Show her where the posts are and how to scratch on them and praise her lavishly while she uses them.  She’ll catch on very quickly.  Put a couple of litterboxes where she can easily get to them and show her where they are.  She’ll catch on to this quickly as well. Really, if all of these issues are that big a deal for you, I wonder if a kitten is the right choice.  Kittens are like toddlers.  They have endless energy and curiosity, and they get into things and climb things and knock things over unless you do a stellar job of kitten-proofing.  I love kittens and am in the middle of raising one that came to me as a rescue, but I have to admit that she occasionally drives me batty, just like a small child would.  But confining a kitten in a pen in the garage isn’t a very good solution any more than confining a toddler would be.  Maybe you need to seriously think about adopting an adult cat that has already gone through the kitten phase and settled down, and that you won’t have to worry about while you’re away from home.  There are plenty of adult cats out there who need homes; if you only want one, then look for one that needs to be in a single-cat home.  There’s plenty of those, too.  Otherwise, find a pair. That’s another thing about kittens (and a lot of cats) – they do a lot better if they have companionship, especially if they are left home alone all day.  I really try as much as possible to encourage people to adopt kittens in pairs.  They are happier with another cat in the house, plus, two kittens are no more trouble than one and they are twice the fun.

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>I did just pick up the cats for dummies books and if I was paying more >attention when growing up I probably would know this stuff but did not >and I feel this groups has a vast amount of experience that will be very >helpful. >J~

We closed all the doors to the bedrooms, bath, laundry and left them have the run of the living room and kitchen…..we put fuzzy blankets in their favorite chair for napping, toys around the room, scratching posts of various types and an old rug they love to scratch. They did fine. Karryl "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former." — – Albert Einstein

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>>I did just pick up the cats for dummies books and if I was paying more >attention when growing up I probably would know this stuff but did not >and I feel this groups has a vast amount of experience that will be very >helpful. >We closed all the doors to the bedrooms, bath, laundry and left them >have the run of the living room and kitchen…..we put fuzzy blankets >in their favorite chair for napping, toys around the room, scratching >posts of various types and an old rug they love to scratch. >They did fine.

Yes, I would recommend shutting them *out* of where they shouldn’t go rather than shutting them *in* to somewhere.  Close off the room with the china ornaments and keep the door to the room with the litter box open.   Later, when you’ve secured the breakables, just leave them with everything open. Oh, er, I mean "he" or "she."  (But two really *is* better!) Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where > to scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, > for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be > about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on > what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in > it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a > power cord, ect. > So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much > light will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I > shoudl have one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around > garage door that let in some light but not sure if enough for the > kitten to see. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~

If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog. You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where > to scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, > for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be > about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on > what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in > it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a > power cord, ect. > So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much > light will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I > shoudl have one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around > garage door that let in some light but not sure if enough for the > kitten to see. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~ >If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you

want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had >>a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog. You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to >>please you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality. I think this is a bit unfair. I think he is just thinking ahead and planning and inexperienced. This is not really a bad thing. Karen

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Assuming you’ll be getting a kitten that is at least 8 weeks old, an 8×10 pen is probably too small a space for it to be confined during the day while you’re away. It’s just as easy just to park your cars outside the garage for two or three weeks and kitten-proof the garage.  It shouldn’t take any longer than that to see what the cat’s behavior pattern is.  Most garages have an overhead light.  Just leave it on during the day. This would probably be a good place to introduce a scratching post and a scratching mat (some cats prefer to scratch horizontally).  If the cat is allowed outside, it will tend to prefer to do it’s scratching there, tree trunks usually being the preferred choice. Using the litter box should be less of a problem.  Cats naturally prefer to scratch around in something loose to find a spot to go to the bathroom unless they have a medical problem or are unhappy about something.  Buy two litter boxes because cats sometimes prefer to pee in one and poop in the other. If the furniture is really more important than the cat, perhaps you should consider adopting an adult cat that has already been declawed from a rescue group. Good luck. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where to > scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, for > lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be about > 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on what is > acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in it the > house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a power > cord, ect. > So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much light > will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I shoudl have > one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around garage door that > let in some light but not sure if enough for the kitten to see. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~

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>This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I >both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, for >lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be about >8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on what is >acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in it the >house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a power >cord, ect.

        Well, my boys had immediate full run of the house.  However, my fiance and I also both took a week of vacation to bond with the kittens and be around and get them settled in.  If this is something you are willing to consider, I would very highly suggest it — because we took the time to bond with them, our cats are extremely affectionate and confident.  We never had a litterbox accident, never had a furniture incident, nothing.  You also may want to consider the fact that kittens don’t respond to moving litterboxes very well, they *are* just babies and they get confused.         Really, pens are for puppies, who not only do not have the bladder control of kittens but who require a whole other set of house skills.  The vast majority of kittens do just fine without being confined.  If you *must* confine, use a bathroom and leave the light on.         You might want to get a few books on kittens and cats.  I bought these, and found them to be very useful.  Both are available from Amazon.         Communicating With Your Cat by J. Anne Helgren  (this is a wonderful book on feline behaviour, which really helps you understand your cat and what she is trying to tell you)         Cats for Dummies by Gina Spadafori  (this covers just about everything in cat ownership, from choosing the cat you bring home to kitten-proofing, feeding, vet care, etc.) Orchid

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ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where to scratch instead of declawing it. This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a power cord, ect. So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much light will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I shoudl have one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around garage door that let in some light but not sure if enough for the kitten to see. Thanks again for help/opinions. J~

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Instead of a garage, my suggestion is a spare bedroom, preferably with an attached bathroom where you can put the litterbox. I’ve converted my guest bedroom into a ‘new cat room’. I confine a new cat to that area until it is cleared healthwise, and until I see how well it is doing in a home environment. To be honest, I’ve never had any problems with kittens before, even stray ones. They always knew how to use the litter box (make sure the kitten is old enough when you adopt it i.e. ideally 10-12 weeks) and spend the majority of the time while I’m at work sleeping, reserving their bad habits till I came home

Response:

> Really, if all of these issues are that big a deal for you, I wonder if a > kitten is the right choice.  Kittens are like toddlers.  They have endless > energy and curiosity, and they get into things and climb things and knock > things over unless you do a stellar job of kitten-proofing.

This is mostly true for me.  Mason is a wild man and gets into everything.  He is very willful and wants to be involved in everything that’s going on, right down to eating what I eat and getting in the shower with me.  It’s very cute and fun but also tiring. I let Mason have the run of the house from Day One.  I fed him right away when I brought him home.  When he was finished, I took him straight to the litter box.  He used it immediately and has never missed– he loves indoor plumbing. Aside from getting in the garbage can, and being a pest attacking the big kitties and wanting to wrestle them even when they are sleeping, he is fine.  No problems around the house at all.  He’s a great addition to my family and 100% wonderful.  Yes, I get a little neurotic worrying about him, but he’s totally relaxed, so at least one of us is… Ray (who has the cutest kitten in the world sleeping on the ol’ lap right now)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where > to scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, > for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be > about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on > what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in > it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a > power cord, ect. > So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much > light will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I > shoudl have one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around > garage door that let in some light but not sure if enough for the > kitten to see. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~ > If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do > you want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if > you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog. You can’t train a cat to > do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want > because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you > lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality.

Personally, I think it’s great that he’s trying to be informed before making the decision. I wish more people would.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where > to scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, > for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be > about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on > what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in > it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a > power cord, ect. > So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much > light will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I > shoudl have one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around > garage door that let in some light but not sure if enough for the > kitten to see. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~ > If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do > you want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if > you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog. You can’t train a cat to > do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want > because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you > lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality.

Sorry, I see some others said the same thing and I don’t want to come across as ganging up on anyone. Ignore my other post.

Response:

>You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do,

….but we *can* bribe them to do some of the things we want them to do! Phil. — "Cats are a great warm-up to a successful marriage;      they teach you your place in the household".                            –Paul Gallaco      Feline Healthcare: http://maxshouse.com

Response:

>This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >where do you house the kitten while you are at work ??

When I had the three foster kittens with me, they had to stay shut in the bathroom with their mom all day because they were still (more or less) milking and their mom was aggressive with my cats. When I was at home, they had the whole house to explore (LOL as if it was big ) ). Since I already had cats, the house was full of scratchable things, and what I saw is that, without any training on my side, the kittens just preferred scratching posts to furniture. So I never had one claw problem with the kitten I kept, and her brother/sister were given away with a mini scratching post (the cheap cardboard things you buy in packs of 3) and they successfully used them in their new houses too…

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>I have been pretty much told I will be the cat person she will be the >baby person when the baby comes. But lets be honest name me one father >who does not want to spend time with his new baby also ??

An ex colleague of mine found a kitten a few weeks after his baby girl was born. He brought him home, seriously intentioned to have him adopted by someone else. First thing the kitten did was to climb into the baby’s cradle. If you took him away, kitten cried, baby cried. No use to say that they grew up together like twins, with no stress at all on their parents side (apart from having the baby understand the difference between real and plush cat )

Response:

I have been pretty much told I will be the cat person she will be the baby person when the baby comes. But lets be honest name me one father who does not want to spend time with his new baby also ?? I hoping I don’t neglect the cat and have even started rethinking on waiting on the cat for a few more years to ensure the cat gets proper attention. Or like many of you have said, get 2 and they will take care of themselves pretty much J~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Yes, it would be wise to have the training by the time the baby comes. > Your wife will be totally focused on her new baby. > Bill >thank you for your support. I will be honest I am new at this, I did >have cats growing up but my mom pretty much took care of them and I >traveled a lot so I only played and feed them, was not involved in >training them. >I will rethink the one or two cat thing, but I am thinking the wife will >probably not work after the baby so it will be easier to train the new >cat at that time, but to be honest, hope it would be done by then. >J~ >>>>ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, >>>>and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where >>>>to scratch instead of declawing it. >>>>This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >>>>where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I >>>>both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, >>>>for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be >>>>about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on >>>>what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in >>>>it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a >>>>power cord, ect. >>>>Thanks again for help/opinions. >>>>J~ >>>If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you > want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had a > Canary or a Gekko or even a dog.. You can’t train a cat to do anything it > doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to please > you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a > cat type personality. >>On the other hand, he said that this will be the first time for him and >>he is asking questions first.  It may be that he simply doesn’t know how >>to care for a cat but is willing to learn.  He has probably heard about >>putting puppies in a large crate.  I remember when I got my first cat >>(many years ago).  I had always had dogs and loved them.  I certainly >>did not dislike cats, but I hadn’t given much thought to them because we >>never had one at home.  I considered myself "a dog person."  Then I >>moved across several states for graduate school and was going to be >>entirely alone for the first time in my life.  I wanted a companion, but >>a dog was not practical in an apartment (or so I thought at that time). >>So, I decided to try a cat "because it would be easier."  Then I learned >>that some feral cats were about to be destroyed, so I decided to take a >>big leap and adopt one of them.  My neighbor helped me trap one, and off >>we went across the country.  It was quite a learning experience for a >>"newbie" to cats, but it was one of the most positive experiences of my >>life.  My cat was feral, so it took about 2 years before he truly >>bonded; but he became an absolutely wonderful friend and companion.  He >>was not declawed, and it really wasn’t difficult to teach him to use a >>scratching post, even under those circumstances.  The result is that I >>soon learned that I am also "a cat person."  That cat lived to be almost >>20 years of age, my next cat lived to be 16, and now I have Holly >>(currently aged 6-1/2).  They became my babies, my loves.  So let’s give >>the person who wrote this message a similar opportunity and help with >>the learning process because he really does sound interested.  For >>example, he started out asking about declawing but has now decided not >>to declaw, based on responses from this newsgroup. >>MaryL

Response:

thank you for your support. I will be honest I am new at this, I did have cats growing up but my mom pretty much took care of them and I traveled a lot so I only played and feed them, was not involved in training them. I will rethink the one or two cat thing, but I am thinking the wife will probably not work after the baby so it will be easier to train the new cat at that time, but to be honest, hope it would be done by then. J~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, >>and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where >>to scratch instead of declawing it. >>This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >>where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I >>both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, >>for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be >>about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on >>what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in >>it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a >>power cord, ect. >>Thanks again for help/opinions. >>J~ >If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog.. You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality. > On the other hand, he said that this will be the first time for him and > he is asking questions first.  It may be that he simply doesn’t know how > to care for a cat but is willing to learn.  He has probably heard about > putting puppies in a large crate.  I remember when I got my first cat > (many years ago).  I had always had dogs and loved them.  I certainly > did not dislike cats, but I hadn’t given much thought to them because we > never had one at home.  I considered myself "a dog person."  Then I > moved across several states for graduate school and was going to be > entirely alone for the first time in my life.  I wanted a companion, but > a dog was not practical in an apartment (or so I thought at that time). > So, I decided to try a cat "because it would be easier."  Then I learned > that some feral cats were about to be destroyed, so I decided to take a > big leap and adopt one of them.  My neighbor helped me trap one, and off > we went across the country.  It was quite a learning experience for a > "newbie" to cats, but it was one of the most positive experiences of my > life.  My cat was feral, so it took about 2 years before he truly > bonded; but he became an absolutely wonderful friend and companion.  He > was not declawed, and it really wasn’t difficult to teach him to use a > scratching post, even under those circumstances.  The result is that I > soon learned that I am also "a cat person."  That cat lived to be almost > 20 years of age, my next cat lived to be 16, and now I have Holly > (currently aged 6-1/2).  They became my babies, my loves.  So let’s give > the person who wrote this message a similar opportunity and help with > the learning process because he really does sound interested.  For > example, he started out asking about declawing but has now decided not > to declaw, based on responses from this newsgroup. > MaryL

Response:

Yes, it would be wise to have the training by the time the baby comes. Your wife will be totally focused on her new baby. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > thank you for your support. I will be honest I am new at this, I did > have cats growing up but my mom pretty much took care of them and I > traveled a lot so I only played and feed them, was not involved in > training them. > I will rethink the one or two cat thing, but I am thinking the wife will > probably not work after the baby so it will be easier to train the new > cat at that time, but to be honest, hope it would be done by then. > J~ >>>ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, >>>and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where >>>to scratch instead of declawing it. >>>This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >>>where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I >>>both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, >>>for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be >>>about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on >>>what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in >>>it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a >>>power cord, ect. >>>Thanks again for help/opinions. >>>J~ >>If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you

want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog.. You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On the other hand, he said that this will be the first time for him and > he is asking questions first.  It may be that he simply doesn’t know how > to care for a cat but is willing to learn.  He has probably heard about > putting puppies in a large crate.  I remember when I got my first cat > (many years ago).  I had always had dogs and loved them.  I certainly > did not dislike cats, but I hadn’t given much thought to them because we > never had one at home.  I considered myself "a dog person."  Then I > moved across several states for graduate school and was going to be > entirely alone for the first time in my life.  I wanted a companion, but > a dog was not practical in an apartment (or so I thought at that time). > So, I decided to try a cat "because it would be easier."  Then I learned > that some feral cats were about to be destroyed, so I decided to take a > big leap and adopt one of them.  My neighbor helped me trap one, and off > we went across the country.  It was quite a learning experience for a > "newbie" to cats, but it was one of the most positive experiences of my > life.  My cat was feral, so it took about 2 years before he truly > bonded; but he became an absolutely wonderful friend and companion.  He > was not declawed, and it really wasn’t difficult to teach him to use a > scratching post, even under those circumstances.  The result is that I > soon learned that I am also "a cat person."  That cat lived to be almost > 20 years of age, my next cat lived to be 16, and now I have Holly > (currently aged 6-1/2).  They became my babies, my loves.  So let’s give > the person who wrote this message a similar opportunity and help with > the learning process because he really does sound interested.  For > example, he started out asking about declawing but has now decided not > to declaw, based on responses from this newsgroup. > MaryL

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where > to scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, > for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be > about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on > what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in > it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a > power cord, ect. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~ > If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog. You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality.

On the other hand, he said that this will be the first time for him and he is asking questions first.  It may be that he simply doesn’t know how to care for a cat but is willing to learn.  He has probably heard about putting puppies in a large crate.  I remember when I got my first cat (many years ago).  I had always had dogs and loved them.  I certainly did not dislike cats, but I hadn’t given much thought to them because we never had one at home.  I considered myself "a dog person."  Then I moved across several states for graduate school and was going to be entirely alone for the first time in my life.  I wanted a companion, but a dog was not practical in an apartment (or so I thought at that time). So, I decided to try a cat "because it would be easier."  Then I learned that some feral cats were about to be destroyed, so I decided to take a big leap and adopt one of them.  My neighbor helped me trap one, and off we went across the country.  It was quite a learning experience for a "newbie" to cats, but it was one of the most positive experiences of my life.  My cat was feral, so it took about 2 years before he truly bonded; but he became an absolutely wonderful friend and companion.  He was not declawed, and it really wasn’t difficult to teach him to use a scratching post, even under those circumstances.  The result is that I soon learned that I am also "a cat person."  That cat lived to be almost 20 years of age, my next cat lived to be 16, and now I have Holly (currently aged 6-1/2).  They became my babies, my loves.  So let’s give the person who wrote this message a similar opportunity and help with the learning process because he really does sound interested.  For example, he started out asking about declawing but has now decided not to declaw, based on responses from this newsgroup. MaryL

Response:

I did just pick up the cats for dummies books and if I was paying more attention when growing up I probably would know this stuff but did not and I feel this groups has a vast amount of experience that will be very helpful. J~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I >both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, for >lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be about >8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on what is >acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in it the >house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a power >cord, ect. >    Well, my boys had immediate full run of the house.  However, > my fiance and I also both took a week of vacation to bond with the > kittens and be around and get them settled in.  If this is something > you are willing to consider, I would very highly suggest it — because > we took the time to bond with them, our cats are extremely > affectionate and confident.  We never had a litterbox accident, never > had a furniture incident, nothing.  You also may want to consider the > fact that kittens don’t respond to moving litterboxes very well, they > *are* just babies and they get confused. >    Really, pens are for puppies, who not only do not have the > bladder control of kittens but who require a whole other set of house > skills.  The vast majority of kittens do just fine without being > confined.  If you *must* confine, use a bathroom and leave the light > on. >    You might want to get a few books on kittens and cats.  I > bought these, and found them to be very useful.  Both are available > from Amazon. >    Communicating With Your Cat by J. Anne Helgren  (this is a > wonderful book on feline behaviour, which really helps you understand > your cat and what she is trying to tell you) >    Cats for Dummies by Gina Spadafori  (this covers just about > everything in cat ownership, from choosing the cat you bring home to > kitten-proofing, feeding, vet care, etc.) > Orchid

Response:

???? This is a kitten, not a hamster.  Assuming the kitten is 8 weeks old or more I would- and always have- just let them have the run of the house while I am out.  I never heard of caging a pet kitten.  (I have heard of crating  dogs while the owners are out.) Barb

Response:

This reminds me of the time a lady came to my father’s tv shop and told him about her new born kittens.  There were 3 or 4 and she described them all.  So, my father said he would take one (our cat’s best friend had been run over and she needed someone to get her out of the depression). The lady brought him early a few days later and my father had no place to keep him at work so the kitten was left to wander around the shop and work bench. He had to be rescued a few times or he would have stepped on a soldering iron or walked into a tv’s flyback (high voltage thingy). Finally, he was brought home at lunch hour.  So tiny, like a hamster, he was taken from his mom too early (he pooped in my lap). My father still has him but now the cat is really huge, like a small melon (and the cat who he was supposed to be a companion to, she died a few years ago) . CPS.

Response:

I wouldn’t recommend keeping the kitten in the garage.. I suggest keeping her in a bathroom for only the first week when you are not home.  But if she seems curious and confident I wouldn’t confine her. Make sure you put a cat bed in the bathroom (can use a wicker basket) and put a shirt with your scent in the cat bed.  Make sure the cat bed is nice a cozy.  I tend to add a stuffed animal so they have something to snuggle with. While you are out if you absolutely feel the need to restrict try for your bedroom, so that s/he learns how to cuddle up with you on the bed it will become his/her nesting room. I’m no expert at this but this is what I have has worked in the past for me. Fuga

Response:

> ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where to > scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ??

In the house.  I’d start her off in one room for a few days until she gets her bearings, and then let her have the run of the house. > My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, for > lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be about > 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on what is > acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in it the > house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a power > cord, ect.

Okay, first off I think a better idea than confining the kitten to the garage, is to take some essential steps re: kitten proofing your house.  Get the power cords out of the way where she can’t get to them, or better yet buy those rubber thingies that you encase power cords in so that they can’t be chewed through.  Put a few scratching posts around the house, the best ones are covered with sisal rope, and also get one or two of those inexpensive cardboard floor scratching mats in case she prefers to scratch horizontally.  Show her where the posts are and how to scratch on them and praise her lavishly while she uses them.  She’ll catch on very quickly.  Put a couple of litterboxes where she can easily get to them and show her where they are.  She’ll catch on to this quickly as well. Really, if all of these issues are that big a deal for you, I wonder if a kitten is the right choice.  Kittens are like toddlers.  They have endless energy and curiosity, and they get into things and climb things and knock things over unless you do a stellar job of kitten-proofing.  I love kittens and am in the middle of raising one that came to me as a rescue, but I have to admit that she occasionally drives me batty, just like a small child would.  But confining a kitten in a pen in the garage isn’t a very good solution any more than confining a toddler would be.  Maybe you need to seriously think about adopting an adult cat that has already gone through the kitten phase and settled down, and that you won’t have to worry about while you’re away from home.  There are plenty of adult cats out there who need homes; if you only want one, then look for one that needs to be in a single-cat home.  There’s plenty of those, too.  Otherwise, find a pair. That’s another thing about kittens (and a lot of cats) – they do a lot better if they have companionship, especially if they are left home alone all day.  I really try as much as possible to encourage people to adopt kittens in pairs.  They are happier with another cat in the house, plus, two kittens are no more trouble than one and they are twice the fun.

Response:

>I did just pick up the cats for dummies books and if I was paying more >attention when growing up I probably would know this stuff but did not >and I feel this groups has a vast amount of experience that will be very >helpful. >J~

We closed all the doors to the bedrooms, bath, laundry and left them have the run of the living room and kitchen…..we put fuzzy blankets in their favorite chair for napping, toys around the room, scratching posts of various types and an old rug they love to scratch. They did fine. Karryl "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former." — – Albert Einstein

Response:

>>I did just pick up the cats for dummies books and if I was paying more >attention when growing up I probably would know this stuff but did not >and I feel this groups has a vast amount of experience that will be very >helpful. >We closed all the doors to the bedrooms, bath, laundry and left them >have the run of the living room and kitchen…..we put fuzzy blankets >in their favorite chair for napping, toys around the room, scratching >posts of various types and an old rug they love to scratch. >They did fine.

Yes, I would recommend shutting them *out* of where they shouldn’t go rather than shutting them *in* to somewhere.  Close off the room with the china ornaments and keep the door to the room with the litter box open.   Later, when you’ve secured the breakables, just leave them with everything open. Oh, er, I mean "he" or "she."  (But two really *is* better!) Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where > to scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, > for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be > about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on > what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in > it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a > power cord, ect. > So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much > light will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I > shoudl have one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around > garage door that let in some light but not sure if enough for the > kitten to see. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~

If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog. You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to please you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where > to scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, > for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be > about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on > what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in > it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a > power cord, ect. > So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much > light will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I > shoudl have one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around > garage door that let in some light but not sure if enough for the > kitten to see. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~ >If I may judge by the questions you’re asking, I would wonder why do you

want a cat? You wouldn’t feel these kind of thing a problem if you had >>a Canary or a Gekko or even a dog. You can’t train a cat to do anything it doesn’t want to do, but it does things you want because it wants to >>please you. It won’t want to please you if you lock it up. You really don’t have a cat type personality. I think this is a bit unfair. I think he is just thinking ahead and planning and inexperienced. This is not really a bad thing. Karen

Response:

Assuming you’ll be getting a kitten that is at least 8 weeks old, an 8×10 pen is probably too small a space for it to be confined during the day while you’re away. It’s just as easy just to park your cars outside the garage for two or three weeks and kitten-proof the garage.  It shouldn’t take any longer than that to see what the cat’s behavior pattern is.  Most garages have an overhead light.  Just leave it on during the day. This would probably be a good place to introduce a scratching post and a scratching mat (some cats prefer to scratch horizontally).  If the cat is allowed outside, it will tend to prefer to do it’s scratching there, tree trunks usually being the preferred choice. Using the litter box should be less of a problem.  Cats naturally prefer to scratch around in something loose to find a spot to go to the bathroom unless they have a medical problem or are unhappy about something.  Buy two litter boxes because cats sometimes prefer to pee in one and poop in the other. If the furniture is really more important than the cat, perhaps you should consider adopting an adult cat that has already been declawed from a rescue group. Good luck. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, > and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where to > scratch instead of declawing it. > This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, > where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I > both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, for > lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be about > 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on what is > acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in it the > house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a power > cord, ect. > So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much light > will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I shoudl have > one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around garage door that > let in some light but not sure if enough for the kitten to see. > Thanks again for help/opinions. > J~

Response:

>This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, >where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I >both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, for >lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be about >8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on what is >acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in it the >house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a power >cord, ect.

        Well, my boys had immediate full run of the house.  However, my fiance and I also both took a week of vacation to bond with the kittens and be around and get them settled in.  If this is something you are willing to consider, I would very highly suggest it — because we took the time to bond with them, our cats are extremely affectionate and confident.  We never had a litterbox accident, never had a furniture incident, nothing.  You also may want to consider the fact that kittens don’t respond to moving litterboxes very well, they *are* just babies and they get confused.         Really, pens are for puppies, who not only do not have the bladder control of kittens but who require a whole other set of house skills.  The vast majority of kittens do just fine without being confined.  If you *must* confine, use a bathroom and leave the light on.         You might want to get a few books on kittens and cats.  I bought these, and found them to be very useful.  Both are available from Amazon.         Communicating With Your Cat by J. Anne Helgren  (this is a wonderful book on feline behaviour, which really helps you understand your cat and what she is trying to tell you)         Cats for Dummies by Gina Spadafori  (this covers just about everything in cat ownership, from choosing the cat you bring home to kitten-proofing, feeding, vet care, etc.) Orchid

Response:

ok, I am hoping this time I won’t create the uproar my last post did, and if you missed it, I am going to try to train the new kitten where to scratch instead of declawing it. This Question, and again I don’t have kitten yet just doing research, where do you house the kitten while you are at work ?? My wife and I both work and can’t watch the new kitten all day. I was planning on, for lack of better words, creating a kitty pen in the garage (will be about 8 feet by 10 feet or one car bay) while it is being trained on what is acceptable and not for behavior. I am concerned if I leave in it the house unattend it might not use the litter box or play with a power cord, ect. So after creating a kitty pen in garage(which is heated) how much light will be needed ?? right now there is no window but I think I shoudl have one put in so it could see. There are small gaps around garage door that let in some light but not sure if enough for the kitten to see. Thanks again for help/opinions. J~

Response:

Question:

she’s absolutely right.  do it right away.  you won’t want to mess with introducing cats when you have a one year old and your new kitten will be MUCH happier for it. peace, pen

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I *guarantee* you that two kittens will give you less trouble because they > keep each other happy and use up the kitten energy. In the end, you would > find that two kittens are less trouble in many ways than one and with a baby > on the way, that will be a good thing. > Karen > as much as I would like 2 kitten, with a baby on the way, I think I will > start with one and maybe next year add another but I just want to take > slowly and make sure I do things correctly. > J~ > >>Just to let the group know, I have decide NOT to declaw the cat but > >>rather try to train it to NOT scratch the nice furniture and hope that > >>works. > > Bravo!  :-) > > Now, can we talk you into adopting *two* kittens instead of one? > They’re > > great company for each other and actually make for less work?  ;-) > > Priscilla

Response:

>as much as I would like 2 kitten, with a baby on the way, I think I will >start with one and maybe next year add another but I just want to take >slowly and make sure I do things correctly. >J~

J~ I thought about getting just one cat 2 years ago….I am so glad that I got 2 instead. I thought 1 would be easier. Now 2 years later I see having 2 is really easier. They keep each other entertained when we humans are busy….and when they are up at night playing as cats do, I get to sleep. They seem so happy together I can’t even begin to understand how life would be with just one cat. We now have three cats (we added a new rescue cat in Feb 2002). Karryl "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former." — – Albert Einstein

Response:

You’re going to have another set of problems if you adopt a second cat when you already have a cat. It could take the two cats as long as two months to get along without growling and hissing at each other.  Some owners never succeed in getting two cats to get along when they came into the home at different times. There’s a procedure you can go through when you adopt a second cat to be successful, but it takes a long time and a lot of patience. I predict you’ve be posting more messages to this newsgroup asking how in the heck to get two cats to get along. It really would be better to adopt two cats now that are known to get along together and like each other’s company rather than trying to find a compatible cat to adopt later. If you do decide to adopt a second cat later, a general rule of thumb one rescue worker told me was to adopt a cat that is older or younger than the resident cat and of the opposite sex.  I would think that getting two males to get along would be the most difficult, but the lady told me she actually has a more difficult time getting two female cats to get along. Hope this helps. Bill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > as much as I would like 2 kitten, with a baby on the way, I think I will > start with one and maybe next year add another but I just want to take > slowly and make sure I do things correctly. > J~ >>Just to let the group know, I have decide NOT to declaw the cat but >>rather try to train it to NOT scratch the nice furniture and hope that >>works. > Bravo!  :-) > Now, can we talk you into adopting *two* kittens instead of one? They’re > great company for each other and actually make for less work?  ;-) > Priscilla

Response:

>Just to let the group know, I have decide NOT to declaw the cat but >rather try to train it to NOT scratch the nice furniture and hope that >works.

Bravo!  :-) Now, can we talk you into adopting *two* kittens instead of one?  They’re great company for each other and actually make for less work?  ;-)   Priscilla — "Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."                                             – Albert Einstein

Response:

> Just to let the group know, I have decide NOT to declaw the cat but > rather try to train it to NOT scratch the nice furniture and hope that > works. > J~

It’s very easy to teach the kitten where to scratch.  Get several different kinds of posts, some lying flat on the floor, and some with good vertical scratching surfaces.  Take a long piece of string and drag it around until the kitten starts to chase it. When you have a good game going, drag the string across one of the scratching posts.  The kitten will chase the string onto the post, get a good hold of it, and he/she will know this is the best place to scratch. Check this site:  http://www.onthe.net.au/~flippy/enticingcats.html There you will see my lovely kitties properly using their posts. Eva

Response:

as much as I would like 2 kitten, with a baby on the way, I think I will start with one and maybe next year add another but I just want to take slowly and make sure I do things correctly. J~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Just to let the group know, I have decide NOT to declaw the cat but >rather try to train it to NOT scratch the nice furniture and hope that >works. > Bravo!  :-) > Now, can we talk you into adopting *two* kittens instead of one?  They’re > great company for each other and actually make for less work?  ;-)   > Priscilla

Response:

the funny part is I have had long hair and short hair cats and in my personal experience the long hair needed more attention in regards to grooming and shed a lot more then the short hair. My aunt who is very allergic had not problem with the short hair but did with long hair. Now it is possible was a rare case since I have only had one short and one long hair cat growing up. J~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Most cats can be trained not to scratch – offer a good, sturdy > scratching post, clip the nails regularly, and you should be fine. > If you’re not sure you’ll have the patience to teach the cat, you may > want to consider adopting a cat which is already declawed. While you > may not get a declawed kitten, you should be able to get a young cat > of around 1 year at your local shelter or Humane Society. Adopting a > slightly older cat would have the added advantage that you would know > a little more about the personality! > By the way, if your wife has slight allergies, you may want to > consider adopting a medium/long-haired cat. They often shed less than > short haired cats, thus have less need for grooming, and produce less > allergens. The shelter personnel or foster home should be able to > indicate which of their cats are heavy/light shedders.

Response:

I *guarantee* you that two kittens will give you less trouble because they keep each other happy and use up the kitten energy. In the end, you would find that two kittens are less trouble in many ways than one and with a baby on the way, that will be a good thing. Karen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > as much as I would like 2 kitten, with a baby on the way, I think I will > start with one and maybe next year add another but I just want to take > slowly and make sure I do things correctly. > J~ >>Just to let the group know, I have decide NOT to declaw the cat but >>rather try to train it to NOT scratch the nice furniture and hope that >>works. > Bravo!  :-) > Now, can we talk you into adopting *two* kittens instead of one? They’re > great company for each other and actually make for less work?  ;-) > Priscilla

Response:

>My biggest question is if the cat sneaks outside in the future which >they always seem to do, will be declawed hurt the cat in any way?? Or is >there a trick to keeping a cat from clawing the furniture ?? The wife >has some very nice antique stuff and she does not want the cat using it >as a scratching post.

        www.stopdeclaw.com — the real truth behind declawing Orchid

Response:

Just to let the group know, I have decide NOT to declaw the cat but rather try to train it to NOT scratch the nice furniture and hope that works. J~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Newbie and first time poster here >     I am thinking of getting a new cat, last had one growing up and now > that I don’t see me moving any more I think it is time. The wife and I > both want a short hair, she has slight allergies, and want the cat to be > a mainly indoor cat.  Thinking of removing the front claws to reduce the > clawing of furniture. The cat will be about 12 weeks old when we get it > and pretty much box trained also. > My biggest question is if the cat sneaks outside in the future which > they always seem to do, will be declawed hurt the cat in any way?? Or is > there a trick to keeping a cat from clawing the furniture ?? The wife > has some very nice antique stuff and she does not want the cat using it > as a scratching post. > Thanks, > J~

Response:

>Just to let the group know, I have decide NOT to declaw the cat but >rather try to train it to NOT scratch the nice furniture and hope that >works.

        YAY!  :)  Getting a 12 week-old kitten will help too — my kittens were 14.5 weeks old when they came home and they immediately took to their cat tree and scratching posts because their mommy taught them how to use them.  Here are some good hints:         Scratching surfaces must be stable.  Cats will not scratch on something tippy or on something that falls over when they scratch on it.         Scratching surfaces are best when they are tall enough that the cat can stand on her hind legs and really stretch up there and scratch.         Offer a variety of scratching surfaces — some cats prefer sisal rope, some prefer carpet, some prefer bark-covered wood, some prefer bare wood, some prefer cardboard.  As well, offer both horizontal and vertical surfaces — some cats prefer horizontal to vertical.         Good places to buy a cat tree:         www.angelicalcat.com         www.sittingprettykitty.com         www.bjmarketers.com         www.fatcatfurniture.com Orchid

Response:

Way to go J, its really good to hear you opted for that decision! … and if ever you wish,  spread what you have learned about declawing to everyone you know.  Every little bit counts in making this practice stop.  :-) Elaine – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just to let the group know, I have decide NOT to declaw the cat but > rather try to train it to NOT scratch the nice furniture and hope that > works. > J~ > Newbie and first time poster here >     I am thinking of getting a new cat, last had one growing up and now > that I don’t see me moving any more I think it is time. The wife and I > both want a short hair, she has slight allergies, and want the cat to be > a mainly indoor cat.  Thinking of removing the front claws to reduce the > clawing of furniture. The cat will be about 12 weeks old when we get it > and pretty much box trained also. > My biggest question is if the cat sneaks outside in the future which > they always seem to do, will be declawed hurt the cat in any way?? Or is > there a trick to keeping a cat from clawing the furniture ?? The wife > has some very nice antique stuff and she does not want the cat using it > as a scratching post. > Thanks, > J~

Response:

Most cats can be trained not to scratch – offer a good, sturdy scratching post, clip the nails regularly, and you should be fine. If you’re not sure you’ll have the patience to teach the cat, you may want to consider adopting a cat which is already declawed. While you may not get a declawed kitten, you should be able to get a young cat of around 1 year at your local shelter or Humane Society. Adopting a slightly older cat would have the added advantage that you would know a little more about the personality! By the way, if your wife has slight allergies, you may want to consider adopting a medium/long-haired cat. They often shed less than short haired cats, thus have less need for grooming, and produce less allergens. The shelter personnel or foster home should be able to indicate which of their cats are heavy/light shedders.

Response:

Newbie and first time poster here         I am thinking of getting a new cat, last had one growing up and now that I don’t see me moving any more I think it is time. The wife and I both want a short hair, she has slight allergies, and want the cat to be a mainly indoor cat.  Thinking of removing the front claws to reduce the clawing of furniture. The cat will be about 12 weeks old when we get it and pretty much box trained also. My biggest question is if the cat sneaks outside in the future which they always seem to do, will be declawed hurt the cat in any way?? Or is there a trick to keeping a cat from clawing the furniture ?? The wife has some very nice antique stuff and she does not want the cat using it as a scratching post. Thanks, J~

Response:

>Newbie and first time poster here

Do a google search for "rec.pets.cats declaw";  read all of them, and PLEASE don’t start another flame war.

Response:

sorry, did not know it would turn out that way. tried do some basic internet searches but will go back and do a few more. J~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Newbie and first time poster here > Do a google search for "rec.pets.cats declaw";  read all of them, and PLEASE > don’t start another flame war.

Response:

Do not get the cat declawed. — Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!  http://members.cox.net/catprotector/station If you love the radio station, you’ll love the gear. Visit the Cat Galaxy Store today http://www.cafeshops.com/catgalaxy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Newbie and first time poster here > I am thinking of getting a new cat, last had one growing up and now that > I don’t see me moving any more I think it is time. The wife and I both > want a short hair, she has slight allergies, and want the cat to be a > mainly indoor cat.  Thinking of removing the front claws to reduce the > clawing of furniture. The cat will be about 12 weeks old when we get it > and pretty much box trained also. > My biggest question is if the cat sneaks outside in the future which > they always seem to do, will be declawed hurt the cat in any way?? Or is > there a trick to keeping a cat from clawing the furniture ?? The wife > has some very nice antique stuff and she does not want the cat using it > as a scratching post. > Thanks, > J~

Response:

>Newbie and first time poster here

And you have innocently stepped into a very controversial topic. >    I am thinking of getting a new cat, last had one growing up and now that >I don’t see me moving any more I think it is time. The wife and I both >want a short hair, she has slight allergies, and want the cat to be a >mainly indoor cat.  Thinking of removing the front claws to reduce the >clawing of furniture. The cat will be about 12 weeks old when we get it >and pretty much box trained also. >My biggest question is if the cat sneaks outside in the future which >they always seem to do, will be declawed hurt the cat in any way?? Or is >there a trick to keeping a cat from clawing the furniture ?? The wife >has some very nice antique stuff and she does not want the cat using it >as a scratching post.

You’ll find that the majority of people who regularly post in this ng are opposed to declawing and feel it is both inhumane and needless. You’ll also find that the majority of people manage to have both nice furniture and cats with claws. So the answer, at least from most of us, is going to be no, declawing is not good. Most cats–personally I believe all cats–can be trained to scratch appropriately. It’s wise of you to consider this topic before getting a cat. If you intend to get an adult cat, you may well find that your cat is already trained to use scratching posts. If not, it’s usually not difficult to train the cat. Provide several good, sturdy scratching posts. Sisal is a good choice which most cats like. Also get a few cardboard scratchers. Get a good cat care/training book, like Anitra Frazier’s the New Natural Cat, which contains a great deal of info on training to scratch appropriately as well as how to clip claws. If, however, you honestly feel you are not going to want to try to train your cat, please consider adopting a cat that is already declawed. Unfortunately, many shelters have plenty of declawed cats available. Post here for more advice, and yes, there are a number of Web sites that provide explanations of why declawing is inhumane, and give step by step instructions on how to train your cat to use appropriate scratching material. Good luck.

Response:

>Newbie and first time poster here >    I am thinking of getting a new cat, last had one growing up and now that >I don’t see me moving any more I think it is time. The wife and I both >want a short hair, she has slight allergies, and want the cat to be a >mainly indoor cat.  Thinking of removing the front claws to reduce the >clawing of furniture. The cat will be about 12 weeks old when we get it >and pretty much box trained also.

Hi J, please go to http://maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm and www.stopdeclaw.com there you will find all the facts you need. Declawing is illegal in most countries. It

Question:

> Putting ‘er down is, of course, not an option. "Rescue kitten" and all. But > I’m getting heartily sick of being woken up by pee and doing two loads of > laundry a day…

I doubt anyone here would recommend euthanising her just because she eliminates improperly. Anyway, you may want to try confining her to the bathroom, or another room with no carpet or furniture, with a litterbox, food, toys, etc for a few days. That will allow you to see if she is using the box, the state of her fecal matter (diarrhea or not) and also may help her learn to use the box again. Cleanup is so much easier on tile. Also, if she is getting used to using fabric as a toilet, you’ll know, since she’ll use the box when she’s confined in the room, but not when she has the run of the house. An off-the-wall idea: If she likes eliminating in plants, try using soil in the litterpan instead of litter for a short time. If, as the vet said, she associates pain with the litterbox, perhaps the smell of soil will help remove that fear (since she eliminates in plants). Gradually, as she gets used to using the litterbox, you can change it to real litter. I would keep her confined to one room, however, until she uses the box consistently, at least when you aren’t *right there* supervising her. Nip the bad habit in the bud, save the laundry, and keep any other cats from picking up the habit. — ~kaeli~ visit me at http://home.att.net/~infinite.possibilities

Response:

    Hi Matt . [..] > The vet seems good, and I’m sure he would have noticed, or at least > mentioned, a urinary tract infection (besides, the kitten is still VERY > young…under or about 3 months).

     The only way to be certain is to have a urine test. UTI can also be caused by crystals in the urine. > [..] > We’re trying the regular show-her-pee-say-BAD-put-her-in-litterbox > approach, but to no avail.

  Please don’t do this. She won’t understand and it  will make her fearful of you . She might sneak away to pee rather than use the box.  Keep her confined when you are not there and pop her into the litterbox frequently when you are with her. If you are going to confine her, you could use a wire crate so she can be in the same room as you at night and not shut away in the bathroom. (make sure she cant squeeze between the bars) Put a cardboard box inside so she has a sleeping area .    Alison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Putting ‘er down is, of course, not an option. "Rescue kitten" and all. But > I’m getting heartily sick of being woken up by pee and doing two loads of > laundry a day… > Help appreciated! Thanks! > — > Kick the crap out of me to respond… > …or visit www.man-man.org!

Response:

It sounds like your cats don’t mind sharing litter boxes, lucky you.  The rule-of-thumb of number of cats plus one for litter boxes seems to be pretty standard advice for cats that don’t like to share. It could be that only the new kitten doesn’t like to share litter boxes. That wouldn’t be surprising considering his medical problems.  He’s had a tough time. The litter box problem may solve itself when the kitten is old enough to go outside if you haven’t found a solution before then.  The open plan of your house and your girlfriend’s position make it difficult to come up with a solution. The kitten is lucky to find such a good home.  I’m sure it will be worth the effort when he’s older and outgrown this. Hang in there. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks for the reply…responses as befitting… > If you have four cats in the house, you should have five litter boxes > (# cats + 1).  Cats don’t always like to share litter boxes.  Keep > them clean, of course. > Huh. That’s a new one. Generally, only the two younger cats use the litter > in the non-winter — the other two go outdoors. Unfortunately, the wee new > one is too small to make the jump to the indoor/outdoor "access window". > You could try restricting the kitten with its litter box to a part of > the house that’s easily cleaned so you can tell if its using the > litter box and if any of the others cats are urinating in the house. > Do this when the kitten is not under your direct observation. > Good idea. My GF has very strong objections to locking the cat in the > bathroom all day, though. (it’s a very open-concept house, and the bathroom > is one of the few rooms with an actual door). > I’m concerned that you’ve said that the house smells vaguely like pee. >  If you can smell it, your cats can smell it much more intensely, > given a cat’s keener sense of smell.  Any of your cats may have begun > to regard the whole house as one big litter box. > I was exaggerating. Frustration talking, I guess. It’s really not that bad. > Cats usually like to go to the bathroom on the edges of their > territory, far away from their main living areas.  If the cat has > access to the outside, most will prefer going to the bathroom outside > rather than a litter box inside the house (if that’s where they are > most of the time).  You might try relocating the litter boxes > accordingly. > Another good idea. Keep a door open to the rear porch all day with the > litter box outside, maybe? > Finding another good home for the kitten would certainly be preferable > to putting it down.  Four cats seem to be a lot for you and your > girlfriend to handle. > Well, I had two, and then she got two more. The new one’s the only one to > give us trouble — the older two have been hale and hearty since day one. > Good luck, and let us know how it goes. > Bill > Thanks for the suggestions, Bill! > — > Kick the crap out of me to respond… > …or visit www.man-man.org!

Response:

If you have four cats in the house, you should have five litter boxes (# cats + 1).  Cats don’t always like to share litter boxes.  Keep them clean, of course. You could try restricting the kitten with its litter box to a part of the house that’s easily cleaned so you can tell if its using the litter box and if any of the others cats are urinating in the house.  Do this when the kitten is not under your direct observation. I’m concerned that you’ve said that the house smells vaguely like pee.  If you can smell it, your cats can smell it much more intensely, given a cat’s keener sense of smell.  Any of your cats may have begun to regard the whole house as one big litter box. Cats usually like to go to the bathroom on the edges of their territory, far away from their main living areas.  If the cat has access to the outside, most will prefer going to the bathroom outside rather than a litter box inside the house (if that’s where they are most of the time).  You might try relocating the litter boxes accordingly. Finding another good home for the kitten would certainly be preferable to putting it down.  Four cats seem to be a lot for you and your girlfriend to handle. Good luck, and let us know how it goes. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi all, > I’m new to the group, but please rest assured that I’ve done some reading > through Google and I couldn’t find any problem precisely like ours. > EXTREMELY long story to follow: > My girlfriend took pity on a kitten (she was working at a pet store > briefly, and somebody found this kitten in a garage and brought it in. The > owner saw it had ticks and was going to send it to the SPCA to be put down, > but my girlfriend decided to save it instead) and brought it home. We took > care of it for a few weeks, de-ticked it, and all was well. The kitten, > when we got it, was probably only 3-4 weeks old; we had to buy that cat- > milk-powder to mix and feed it with. > Tidbit (the kitten) started having severe bowel problems soon after, and > her anus swelled out of her butt; nasty diarrhea, pooing all over the > house, etc. An initial visit to the vet resulted in some de-worming liquid, > which worked for a bit, then stopped working. A second visit, different de- > worming liquid (and an initial vaccination). Now, about three weeks after > that second visit, we’re on vermifuge #3. > Okay. So somewhere in here, she stops using the litter box entirely and > starts pooing and peeing around the house…peeing usually on the bed and > sofa, pooing just about anywhere but often under furniture and in plants (a > good sign, that). The vet assumes that she’s grown afraid of the litter > box, due to the pain when she had the infection, so we get her a new litter > box and a different kind of litter and put it in another room. Mel (my > girlfriend) spends a LOT of time showing Tidbit her poo when she poos, then > taking her to the litterbox and putting her in. Eventually, she starts > going to the bathroom WHEN Mel puts her in the litterbox, but not > otherwise. > The poo problem seems to have cleared up — she may have found a more > secret spot in the house to "do her business," and it’s hard to tell with > four cats in the house whether she’s pooing in the litter box or not — but > she still pees on the couches and the bed, at least once a day. > The vet seems good, and I’m sure he would have noticed, or at least > mentioned, a urinary tract infection (besides, the kitten is still VERY > young…under or about 3 months). > She gets lots of attention and is usually happy to see us, and plays > constantly (and happily) with a slightly older cat in the house. I don’t > think she lacks attention or feels put-out by us not loving her enough. On > the OTHER hand, she often seems to do the peeing while Mel and I are at > home, or while we sleep. On the OTHER OTHER hand, if she does it at home > when we’re not there and it dries, it would be hard to tell as the entire > house now smells vaguely like pee anyway. > We’ve already changed the litter box and location and type of litter > (trying that newspaper-pellet stuff). Again, I have no way of knowing if > she ever uses it, or if she’s pooing somewhere more secretive (large, > unfinished, EXTREMELY chaotic basement with lots of potential poo-places). > I understand now that we should clean the litter daily, and I’ll pass that > on to Mel (we’ve agreed that it’s her "rescue kitten," so she’ll be > responsible for care and maintenance). > We’re trying the regular show-her-pee-say-BAD-put-her-in-litterbox > approach, but to no avail. > Putting ‘er down is, of course, not an option. "Rescue kitten" and all. But > I’m getting heartily sick of being woken up by pee and doing two loads of > laundry a day… > Help appreciated! Thanks! > — > Kick the crap out of me to respond… > …or visit www.man-man.org!

–

Response:

Thanks for the reply…responses as befitting… > If you have four cats in the house, you should have five litter boxes > (# cats + 1).  Cats don’t always like to share litter boxes.  Keep > them clean, of course.

Huh. That’s a new one. Generally, only the two younger cats use the litter in the non-winter — the other two go outdoors. Unfortunately, the wee new one is too small to make the jump to the indoor/outdoor "access window".   > You could try restricting the kitten with its litter box to a part of > the house that’s easily cleaned so you can tell if its using the > litter box and if any of the others cats are urinating in the house. > Do this when the kitten is not under your direct observation.

Good idea. My GF has very strong objections to locking the cat in the bathroom all day, though. (it’s a very open-concept house, and the bathroom is one of the few rooms with an actual door). > I’m concerned that you’ve said that the house smells vaguely like pee. >  If you can smell it, your cats can smell it much more intensely, > given a cat’s keener sense of smell.  Any of your cats may have begun > to regard the whole house as one big litter box.

I was exaggerating. Frustration talking, I guess. It’s really not that bad. > Cats usually like to go to the bathroom on the edges of their > territory, far away from their main living areas.  If the cat has > access to the outside, most will prefer going to the bathroom outside > rather than a litter box inside the house (if that’s where they are > most of the time).  You might try relocating the litter boxes > accordingly.

Another good idea. Keep a door open to the rear porch all day with the litter box outside, maybe? > Finding another good home for the kitten would certainly be preferable > to putting it down.  Four cats seem to be a lot for you and your > girlfriend to handle.

Well, I had two, and then she got two more. The new one’s the only one to give us trouble — the older two have been hale and hearty since day one. > Good luck, and let us know how it goes. > Bill

Thanks for the suggestions, Bill! — Kick the crap out of me to respond… …or visit www.man-man.org!

Response:

Hi all, I’m new to the group, but please rest assured that I’ve done some reading through Google and I couldn’t find any problem precisely like ours. EXTREMELY long story to follow: My girlfriend took pity on a kitten (she was working at a pet store briefly, and somebody found this kitten in a garage and brought it in. The owner saw it had ticks and was going to send it to the SPCA to be put down, but my girlfriend decided to save it instead) and brought it home. We took care of it for a few weeks, de-ticked it, and all was well. The kitten, when we got it, was probably only 3-4 weeks old; we had to buy that cat- milk-powder to mix and feed it with. Tidbit (the kitten) started having severe bowel problems soon after, and her anus swelled out of her butt; nasty diarrhea, pooing all over the house, etc. An initial visit to the vet resulted in some de-worming liquid, which worked for a bit, then stopped working. A second visit, different de- worming liquid (and an initial vaccination). Now, about three weeks after that second visit, we’re on vermifuge #3. Okay. So somewhere in here, she stops using the litter box entirely and starts pooing and peeing around the house…peeing usually on the bed and sofa, pooing just about anywhere but often under furniture and in plants (a good sign, that). The vet assumes that she’s grown afraid of the litter box, due to the pain when she had the infection, so we get her a new litter box and a different kind of litter and put it in another room. Mel (my girlfriend) spends a LOT of time showing Tidbit her poo when she poos, then taking her to the litterbox and putting her in. Eventually, she starts going to the bathroom WHEN Mel puts her in the litterbox, but not otherwise. The poo problem seems to have cleared up — she may have found a more secret spot in the house to "do her business," and it’s hard to tell with four cats in the house whether she’s pooing in the litter box or not — but she still pees on the couches and the bed, at least once a day. The vet seems good, and I’m sure he would have noticed, or at least mentioned, a urinary tract infection (besides, the kitten is still VERY young…under or about 3 months). She gets lots of attention and is usually happy to see us, and plays constantly (and happily) with a slightly older cat in the house. I don’t think she lacks attention or feels put-out by us not loving her enough. On the OTHER hand, she often seems to do the peeing while Mel and I are at home, or while we sleep. On the OTHER OTHER hand, if she does it at home when we’re not there and it dries, it would be hard to tell as the entire house now smells vaguely like pee anyway. We’ve already changed the litter box and location and type of litter (trying that newspaper-pellet stuff). Again, I have no way of knowing if she ever uses it, or if she’s pooing somewhere more secretive (large, unfinished, EXTREMELY chaotic basement with lots of potential poo-places). I understand now that we should clean the litter daily, and I’ll pass that on to Mel (we’ve agreed that it’s her "rescue kitten," so she’ll be responsible for care and maintenance). We’re trying the regular show-her-pee-say-BAD-put-her-in-litterbox approach, but to no avail. Putting ‘er down is, of course, not an option. "Rescue kitten" and all. But I’m getting heartily sick of being woken up by pee and doing two loads of laundry a day… Help appreciated! Thanks! — Kick the crap out of me to respond… …or visit www.man-man.org!

Response:

> Putting ‘er down is, of course, not an option. "Rescue kitten" and all. But > I’m getting heartily sick of being woken up by pee and doing two loads of > laundry a day…

I doubt anyone here would recommend euthanising her just because she eliminates improperly. Anyway, you may want to try confining her to the bathroom, or another room with no carpet or furniture, with a litterbox, food, toys, etc for a few days. That will allow you to see if she is using the box, the state of her fecal matter (diarrhea or not) and also may help her learn to use the box again. Cleanup is so much easier on tile. Also, if she is getting used to using fabric as a toilet, you’ll know, since she’ll use the box when she’s confined in the room, but not when she has the run of the house. An off-the-wall idea: If she likes eliminating in plants, try using soil in the litterpan instead of litter for a short time. If, as the vet said, she associates pain with the litterbox, perhaps the smell of soil will help remove that fear (since she eliminates in plants). Gradually, as she gets used to using the litterbox, you can change it to real litter. I would keep her confined to one room, however, until she uses the box consistently, at least when you aren’t *right there* supervising her. Nip the bad habit in the bud, save the laundry, and keep any other cats from picking up the habit. — ~kaeli~ visit me at http://home.att.net/~infinite.possibilities

Response:

    Hi Matt . [..] > The vet seems good, and I’m sure he would have noticed, or at least > mentioned, a urinary tract infection (besides, the kitten is still VERY > young…under or about 3 months).

     The only way to be certain is to have a urine test. UTI can also be caused by crystals in the urine. > [..] > We’re trying the regular show-her-pee-say-BAD-put-her-in-litterbox > approach, but to no avail.

  Please don’t do this. She won’t understand and it  will make her fearful of you . She might sneak away to pee rather than use the box.  Keep her confined when you are not there and pop her into the litterbox frequently when you are with her. If you are going to confine her, you could use a wire crate so she can be in the same room as you at night and not shut away in the bathroom. (make sure she cant squeeze between the bars) Put a cardboard box inside so she has a sleeping area .    Alison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Putting ‘er down is, of course, not an option. "Rescue kitten" and all. But > I’m getting heartily sick of being woken up by pee and doing two loads of > laundry a day… > Help appreciated! Thanks! > — > Kick the crap out of me to respond… > …or visit www.man-man.org!

Response:

It sounds like your cats don’t mind sharing litter boxes, lucky you.  The rule-of-thumb of number of cats plus one for litter boxes seems to be pretty standard advice for cats that don’t like to share. It could be that only the new kitten doesn’t like to share litter boxes. That wouldn’t be surprising considering his medical problems.  He’s had a tough time. The litter box problem may solve itself when the kitten is old enough to go outside if you haven’t found a solution before then.  The open plan of your house and your girlfriend’s position make it difficult to come up with a solution. The kitten is lucky to find such a good home.  I’m sure it will be worth the effort when he’s older and outgrown this. Hang in there. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks for the reply…responses as befitting… > If you have four cats in the house, you should have five litter boxes > (# cats + 1).  Cats don’t always like to share litter boxes.  Keep > them clean, of course. > Huh. That’s a new one. Generally, only the two younger cats use the litter > in the non-winter — the other two go outdoors. Unfortunately, the wee new > one is too small to make the jump to the indoor/outdoor "access window". > You could try restricting the kitten with its litter box to a part of > the house that’s easily cleaned so you can tell if its using the > litter box and if any of the others cats are urinating in the house. > Do this when the kitten is not under your direct observation. > Good idea. My GF has very strong objections to locking the cat in the > bathroom all day, though. (it’s a very open-concept house, and the bathroom > is one of the few rooms with an actual door). > I’m concerned that you’ve said that the house smells vaguely like pee. >  If you can smell it, your cats can smell it much more intensely, > given a cat’s keener sense of smell.  Any of your cats may have begun > to regard the whole house as one big litter box. > I was exaggerating. Frustration talking, I guess. It’s really not that bad. > Cats usually like to go to the bathroom on the edges of their > territory, far away from their main living areas.  If the cat has > access to the outside, most will prefer going to the bathroom outside > rather than a litter box inside the house (if that’s where they are > most of the time).  You might try relocating the litter boxes > accordingly. > Another good idea. Keep a door open to the rear porch all day with the > litter box outside, maybe? > Finding another good home for the kitten would certainly be preferable > to putting it down.  Four cats seem to be a lot for you and your > girlfriend to handle. > Well, I had two, and then she got two more. The new one’s the only one to > give us trouble — the older two have been hale and hearty since day one. > Good luck, and let us know how it goes. > Bill > Thanks for the suggestions, Bill! > — > Kick the crap out of me to respond… > …or visit www.man-man.org!

Response:

If you have four cats in the house, you should have five litter boxes (# cats + 1).  Cats don’t always like to share litter boxes.  Keep them clean, of course. You could try restricting the kitten with its litter box to a part of the house that’s easily cleaned so you can tell if its using the litter box and if any of the others cats are urinating in the house.  Do this when the kitten is not under your direct observation. I’m concerned that you’ve said that the house smells vaguely like pee.  If you can smell it, your cats can smell it much more intensely, given a cat’s keener sense of smell.  Any of your cats may have begun to regard the whole house as one big litter box. Cats usually like to go to the bathroom on the edges of their territory, far away from their main living areas.  If the cat has access to the outside, most will prefer going to the bathroom outside rather than a litter box inside the house (if that’s where they are most of the time).  You might try relocating the litter boxes accordingly. Finding another good home for the kitten would certainly be preferable to putting it down.  Four cats seem to be a lot for you and your girlfriend to handle. Good luck, and let us know how it goes. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi all, > I’m new to the group, but please rest assured that I’ve done some reading > through Google and I couldn’t find any problem precisely like ours. > EXTREMELY long story to follow: > My girlfriend took pity on a kitten (she was working at a pet store > briefly, and somebody found this kitten in a garage and brought it in. The > owner saw it had ticks and was going to send it to the SPCA to be put down, > but my girlfriend decided to save it instead) and brought it home. We took > care of it for a few weeks, de-ticked it, and all was well. The kitten, > when we got it, was probably only 3-4 weeks old; we had to buy that cat- > milk-powder to mix and feed it with. > Tidbit (the kitten) started having severe bowel problems soon after, and > her anus swelled out of her butt; nasty diarrhea, pooing all over the > house, etc. An initial visit to the vet resulted in some de-worming liquid, > which worked for a bit, then stopped working. A second visit, different de- > worming liquid (and an initial vaccination). Now, about three weeks after > that second visit, we’re on vermifuge #3. > Okay. So somewhere in here, she stops using the litter box entirely and > starts pooing and peeing around the house…peeing usually on the bed and > sofa, pooing just about anywhere but often under furniture and in plants (a > good sign, that). The vet assumes that she’s grown afraid of the litter > box, due to the pain when she had the infection, so we get her a new litter > box and a different kind of litter and put it in another room. Mel (my > girlfriend) spends a LOT of time showing Tidbit her poo when she poos, then > taking her to the litterbox and putting her in. Eventually, she starts > going to the bathroom WHEN Mel puts her in the litterbox, but not > otherwise. > The poo problem seems to have cleared up — she may have found a more > secret spot in the house to "do her business," and it’s hard to tell with > four cats in the house whether she’s pooing in the litter box or not — but > she still pees on the couches and the bed, at least once a day. > The vet seems good, and I’m sure he would have noticed, or at least > mentioned, a urinary tract infection (besides, the kitten is still VERY > young…under or about 3 months). > She gets lots of attention and is usually happy to see us, and plays > constantly (and happily) with a slightly older cat in the house. I don’t > think she lacks attention or feels put-out by us not loving her enough. On > the OTHER hand, she often seems to do the peeing while Mel and I are at > home, or while we sleep. On the OTHER OTHER hand, if she does it at home > when we’re not there and it dries, it would be hard to tell as the entire > house now smells vaguely like pee anyway. > We’ve already changed the litter box and location and type of litter > (trying that newspaper-pellet stuff). Again, I have no way of knowing if > she ever uses it, or if she’s pooing somewhere more secretive (large, > unfinished, EXTREMELY chaotic basement with lots of potential poo-places). > I understand now that we should clean the litter daily, and I’ll pass that > on to Mel (we’ve agreed that it’s her "rescue kitten," so she’ll be > responsible for care and maintenance). > We’re trying the regular show-her-pee-say-BAD-put-her-in-litterbox > approach, but to no avail. > Putting ‘er down is, of course, not an option. "Rescue kitten" and all. But > I’m getting heartily sick of being woken up by pee and doing two loads of > laundry a day… > Help appreciated! Thanks! > — > Kick the crap out of me to respond… > …or visit www.man-man.org!

–

Response:

Thanks for the reply…responses as befitting… > If you have four cats in the house, you should have five litter boxes > (# cats + 1).  Cats don’t always like to share litter boxes.  Keep > them clean, of course.

Huh. That’s a new one. Generally, only the two younger cats use the litter in the non-winter — the other two go outdoors. Unfortunately, the wee new one is too small to make the jump to the indoor/outdoor "access window".   > You could try restricting the kitten with its litter box to a part of > the house that’s easily cleaned so you can tell if its using the > litter box and if any of the others cats are urinating in the house. > Do this when the kitten is not under your direct observation.

Good idea. My GF has very strong objections to locking the cat in the bathroom all day, though. (it’s a very open-concept house, and the bathroom is one of the few rooms with an actual door). > I’m concerned that you’ve said that the house smells vaguely like pee. >  If you can smell it, your cats can smell it much more intensely, > given a cat’s keener sense of smell.  Any of your cats may have begun > to regard the whole house as one big litter box.

I was exaggerating. Frustration talking, I guess. It’s really not that bad. > Cats usually like to go to the bathroom on the edges of their > territory, far away from their main living areas.  If the cat has > access to the outside, most will prefer going to the bathroom outside > rather than a litter box inside the house (if that’s where they are > most of the time).  You might try relocating the litter boxes > accordingly.

Another good idea. Keep a door open to the rear porch all day with the litter box outside, maybe? > Finding another good home for the kitten would certainly be preferable > to putting it down.  Four cats seem to be a lot for you and your > girlfriend to handle.

Well, I had two, and then she got two more. The new one’s the only one to give us trouble — the older two have been hale and hearty since day one. > Good luck, and let us know how it goes. > Bill

Thanks for the suggestions, Bill! — Kick the crap out of me to respond… …or visit www.man-man.org!

Response:

Hi all, I’m new to the group, but please rest assured that I’ve done some reading through Google and I couldn’t find any problem precisely like ours. EXTREMELY long story to follow: My girlfriend took pity on a kitten (she was working at a pet store briefly, and somebody found this kitten in a garage and brought it in. The owner saw it had ticks and was going to send it to the SPCA to be put down, but my girlfriend decided to save it instead) and brought it home. We took care of it for a few weeks, de-ticked it, and all was well. The kitten, when we got it, was probably only 3-4 weeks old; we had to buy that cat- milk-powder to mix and feed it with. Tidbit (the kitten) started having severe bowel problems soon after, and her anus swelled out of her butt; nasty diarrhea, pooing all over the house, etc. An initial visit to the vet resulted in some de-worming liquid, which worked for a bit, then stopped working. A second visit, different de- worming liquid (and an initial vaccination). Now, about three weeks after that second visit, we’re on vermifuge #3. Okay. So somewhere in here, she stops using the litter box entirely and starts pooing and peeing around the house…peeing usually on the bed and sofa, pooing just about anywhere but often under furniture and in plants (a good sign, that). The vet assumes that she’s grown afraid of the litter box, due to the pain when she had the infection, so we get her a new litter box and a different kind of litter and put it in another room. Mel (my girlfriend) spends a LOT of time showing Tidbit her poo when she poos, then taking her to the litterbox and putting her in. Eventually, she starts going to the bathroom WHEN Mel puts her in the litterbox, but not otherwise. The poo problem seems to have cleared up — she may have found a more secret spot in the house to "do her business," and it’s hard to tell with four cats in the house whether she’s pooing in the litter box or not — but she still pees on the couches and the bed, at least once a day. The vet seems good, and I’m sure he would have noticed, or at least mentioned, a urinary tract infection (besides, the kitten is still VERY young…under or about 3 months). She gets lots of attention and is usually happy to see us, and plays constantly (and happily) with a slightly older cat in the house. I don’t think she lacks attention or feels put-out by us not loving her enough. On the OTHER hand, she often seems to do the peeing while Mel and I are at home, or while we sleep. On the OTHER OTHER hand, if she does it at home when we’re not there and it dries, it would be hard to tell as the entire house now smells vaguely like pee anyway. We’ve already changed the litter box and location and type of litter (trying that newspaper-pellet stuff). Again, I have no way of knowing if she ever uses it, or if she’s pooing somewhere more secretive (large, unfinished, EXTREMELY chaotic basement with lots of potential poo-places). I understand now that we should clean the litter daily, and I’ll pass that on to Mel (we’ve agreed that it’s her "rescue kitten," so she’ll be responsible for care and maintenance). We’re trying the regular show-her-pee-say-BAD-put-her-in-litterbox approach, but to no avail. Putting ‘er down is, of course, not an option. "Rescue kitten" and all. But I’m getting heartily sick of being woken up by pee and doing two loads of laundry a day… Help appreciated! Thanks! — Kick the crap out of me to respond… …or visit www.man-man.org!

Response:

> Putting ‘er down is, of course, not an option. "Rescue kitten" and all. But > I’m getting heartily sick of being woken up by pee and doing two loads of > laundry a day…

I doubt anyone here would recommend euthanising her just because she eliminates improperly. Anyway, you may want to try confining her to the bathroom, or another room with no carpet or furniture, with a litterbox, food, toys, etc for a few days. That will allow you to see if she is using the box, the state of her fecal matter (diarrhea or not) and also may help her learn to use the box again. Cleanup is so much easier on tile. Also, if she is getting used to using fabric as a toilet, you’ll know, since she’ll use the box when she’s confined in the room, but not when she has the run of the house. An off-the-wall idea: If she likes eliminating in plants, try using soil in the litterpan instead of litter for a short time. If, as the vet said, she associates pain with the litterbox, perhaps the smell of soil will help remove that fear (since she eliminates in plants). Gradually, as she gets used to using the litterbox, you can change it to real litter. I would keep her confined to one room, however, until she uses the box consistently, at least when you aren’t *right there* supervising her. Nip the bad habit in the bud, save the laundry, and keep any other cats from picking up the habit. — ~kaeli~ visit me at http://home.att.net/~infinite.possibilities

Response:

    Hi Matt . [..] > The vet seems good, and I’m sure he would have noticed, or at least > mentioned, a urinary tract infection (besides, the kitten is still VERY > young…under or about 3 months).

     The only way to be certain is to have a urine test. UTI can also be caused by crystals in the urine. > [..] > We’re trying the regular show-her-pee-say-BAD-put-her-in-litterbox > approach, but to no avail.

  Please don’t do this. She won’t understand and it  will make her fearful of you . She might sneak away to pee rather than use the box.  Keep her confined when you are not there and pop her into the litterbox frequently when you are with her. If you are going to confine her, you could use a wire crate so she can be in the same room as you at night and not shut away in the bathroom. (make sure she cant squeeze between the bars) Put a cardboard box inside so she has a sleeping area .    Alison – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Putting ‘er down is, of course, not an option. "Rescue kitten" and all. But > I’m getting heartily sick of being woken up by pee and doing two loads of > laundry a day… > Help appreciated! Thanks! > — > Kick the crap out of me to respond… > …or visit www.man-man.org!

Response:

It sounds like your cats don’t mind sharing litter boxes, lucky you.  The rule-of-thumb of number of cats plus one for litter boxes seems to be pretty standard advice for cats that don’t like to share. It could be that only the new kitten doesn’t like to share litter boxes. That wouldn’t be surprising considering his medical problems.  He’s had a tough time. The litter box problem may solve itself when the kitten is old enough to go outside if you haven’t found a solution before then.  The open plan of your house and your girlfriend’s position make it difficult to come up with a solution. The kitten is lucky to find such a good home.  I’m sure it will be worth the effort when he’s older and outgrown this. Hang in there. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks for the reply…responses as befitting… > If you have four cats in the house, you should have five litter boxes > (# cats + 1).  Cats don’t always like to share litter boxes.  Keep > them clean, of course. > Huh. That’s a new one. Generally, only the two younger cats use the litter > in the non-winter — the other two go outdoors. Unfortunately, the wee new > one is too small to make the jump to the indoor/outdoor "access window". > You could try restricting the kitten with its litter box to a part of > the house that’s easily cleaned so you can tell if its using the > litter box and if any of the others cats are urinating in the house. > Do this when the kitten is not under your direct observation. > Good idea. My GF has very strong objections to locking the cat in the > bathroom all day, though. (it’s a very open-concept house, and the bathroom > is one of the few rooms with an actual door). > I’m concerned that you’ve said that the house smells vaguely like pee. >  If you can smell it, your cats can smell it much more intensely, > given a cat’s keener sense of smell.  Any of your cats may have begun > to regard the whole house as one big litter box. > I was exaggerating. Frustration talking, I guess. It’s really not that bad. > Cats usually like to go to the bathroom on the edges of their > territory, far away from their main living areas.  If the cat has > access to the outside, most will prefer going to the bathroom outside > rather than a litter box inside the house (if that’s where they are > most of the time).  You might try relocating the litter boxes > accordingly. > Another good idea. Keep a door open to the rear porch all day with the > litter box outside, maybe? > Finding another good home for the kitten would certainly be preferable > to putting it down.  Four cats seem to be a lot for you and your > girlfriend to handle. > Well, I had two, and then she got two more. The new one’s the only one to > give us trouble — the older two have been hale and hearty since day one. > Good luck, and let us know how it goes. > Bill > Thanks for the suggestions, Bill! > — > Kick the crap out of me to respond… > …or visit www.man-man.org!

Response:

If you have four cats in the house, you should have five litter boxes (# cats + 1).  Cats don’t always like to share litter boxes.  Keep them clean, of course. You could try restricting the kitten with its litter box to a part of the house that’s easily cleaned so you can tell if its using the litter box and if any of the others cats are urinating in the house.  Do this when the kitten is not under your direct observation. I’m concerned that you’ve said that the house smells vaguely like pee.  If you can smell it, your cats can smell it much more intensely, given a cat’s keener sense of smell.  Any of your cats may have begun to regard the whole house as one big litter box. Cats usually like to go to the bathroom on the edges of their territory, far away from their main living areas.  If the cat has access to the outside, most will prefer going to the bathroom outside rather than a litter box inside the house (if that’s where they are most of the time).  You might try relocating the litter boxes accordingly. Finding another good home for the kitten would certainly be preferable to putting it down.  Four cats seem to be a lot for you and your girlfriend to handle. Good luck, and let us know how it goes. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi all, > I’m new to the group, but please rest assured that I’ve done some reading > through Google and I couldn’t find any problem precisely like ours. > EXTREMELY long story to follow: > My girlfriend took pity on a kitten (she was working at a pet store > briefly, and somebody found this kitten in a garage and brought it in. The > owner saw it had ticks and was going to send it to the SPCA to be put down, > but my girlfriend decided to save it instead) and brought it home. We took > care of it for a few weeks, de-ticked it, and all was well. The kitten, > when we got it, was probably only 3-4 weeks old; we had to buy that cat- > milk-powder to mix and feed it with. > Tidbit (the kitten) started having severe bowel problems soon after, and > her anus swelled out of her butt; nasty diarrhea, pooing all over the > house, etc. An initial visit to the vet resulted in some de-worming liquid, > which worked for a bit, then stopped working. A second visit, different de- > worming liquid (and an initial vaccination). Now, about three weeks after > that second visit, we’re on vermifuge #3. > Okay. So somewhere in here, she stops using the litter box entirely and > starts pooing and peeing around the house…peeing usually on the bed and > sofa, pooing just about anywhere but often under furniture and in plants (a > good sign, that). The vet assumes that she’s grown afraid of the litter > box, due to the pain when she had the infection, so we get her a new litter > box and a different kind of litter and put it in another room. Mel (my > girlfriend) spends a LOT of time showing Tidbit her poo when she poos, then > taking her to the litterbox and putting her in. Eventually, she starts > going to the bathroom WHEN Mel puts her in the litterbox, but not > otherwise. > The poo problem seems to have cleared up — she may have found a more > secret spot in the house to "do her business," and it’s hard to tell with > four cats in the house whether she’s pooing in the litter box or not — but > she still pees on the couches and the bed, at least once a day. > The vet seems good, and I’m sure he would have noticed, or at least > mentioned, a urinary tract infection (besides, the kitten is still VERY > young…under or about 3 months). > She gets lots of attention and is usually happy to see us, and plays > constantly (and happily) with a slightly older cat in the house. I don’t > think she lacks attention or feels put-out by us not loving her enough. On > the OTHER hand, she often seems to do the peeing while Mel and I are at > home, or while we sleep. On the OTHER OTHER hand, if she does it at home > when we’re not there and it dries, it would be hard to tell as the entire > house now smells vaguely like pee anyway. > We’ve already changed the litter box and location and type of litter > (trying that newspaper-pellet stuff). Again, I have no way of knowing if > she ever uses it, or if she’s pooing somewhere more secretive (large, > unfinished, EXTREMELY chaotic basement with lots of potential poo-places). > I understand now that we should clean the litter daily, and I’ll pass that > on to Mel (we’ve agreed that it’s her "rescue kitten," so she’ll be > responsible for care and maintenance). > We’re trying the regular show-her-pee-say-BAD-put-her-in-litterbox > approach, but to no avail. > Putting ‘er down is, of course, not an option. "Rescue kitten" and all. But > I’m getting heartily sick of being woken up by pee and doing two loads of > laundry a day… > Help appreciated! Thanks! > — > Kick the crap out of me to respond… > …or visit www.man-man.org!

–

Response:

Thanks for the reply…responses as befitting… > If you have four cats in the house, you should have five litter boxes > (# cats + 1).  Cats don’t always like to share litter boxes.  Keep > them clean, of course.

Huh. That’s a new one. Generally, only the two younger cats use the litter in the non-winter — the other two go outdoors. Unfortunately, the wee new one is too small to make the jump to the indoor/outdoor "access window".   > You could try restricting the kitten with its litter box to a part of > the house that’s easily cleaned so you can tell if its using the > litter box and if any of the others cats are urinating in the house. > Do this when the kitten is not under your direct observation.

Good idea. My GF has very strong objections to locking the cat in the bathroom all day, though. (it’s a very open-concept house, and the bathroom is one of the few rooms with an actual door). > I’m concerned that you’ve said that the house smells vaguely like pee. >  If you can smell it, your cats can smell it much more intensely, > given a cat’s keener sense of smell.  Any of your cats may have begun > to regard the whole house as one big litter box.

I was exaggerating. Frustration talking, I guess. It’s really not that bad. > Cats usually like to go to the bathroom on the edges of their > territory, far away from their main living areas.  If the cat has > access to the outside, most will prefer going to the bathroom outside > rather than a litter box inside the house (if that’s where they are > most of the time).  You might try relocating the litter boxes > accordingly.

Another good idea. Keep a door open to the rear porch all day with the litter box outside, maybe? > Finding another good home for the kitten would certainly be preferable > to putting it down.  Four cats seem to be a lot for you and your > girlfriend to handle.

Well, I had two, and then she got two more. The new one’s the only one to give us trouble — the older two have been hale and hearty since day one. > Good luck, and let us know how it goes. > Bill

Thanks for the suggestions, Bill! — Kick the crap out of me to respond… …or visit www.man-man.org!

Response:

Hi all, I’m new to the group, but please rest assured that I’ve done some reading through Google and I couldn’t find any problem precisely like ours. EXTREMELY long story to follow: My girlfriend took pity on a kitten (she was working at a pet store briefly, and somebody found this kitten in a garage and brought it in. The owner saw it had ticks and was going to send it to the SPCA to be put down, but my girlfriend decided to save it instead) and brought it home. We took care of it for a few weeks, de-ticked it, and all was well. The kitten, when we got it, was probably only 3-4 weeks old; we had to buy that cat- milk-powder to mix and feed it with. Tidbit (the kitten) started having severe bowel problems soon after, and her anus swelled out of her butt; nasty diarrhea, pooing all over the house, etc. An initial visit to the vet resulted in some de-worming liquid, which worked for a bit, then stopped working. A second visit, different de- worming liquid (and an initial vaccination). Now, about three weeks after that second visit, we’re on vermifuge #3. Okay. So somewhere in here, she stops using the litter box entirely and starts pooing and peeing around the house…peeing usually on the bed and sofa, pooing just about anywhere but often under furniture and in plants (a good sign, that). The vet assumes that she’s grown afraid of the litter box, due to the pain when she had the infection, so we get her a new litter box and a different kind of litter and put it in another room. Mel (my girlfriend) spends a LOT of time showing Tidbit her poo when she poos, then taking her to the litterbox and putting her in. Eventually, she starts going to the bathroom WHEN Mel puts her in the litterbox, but not otherwise. The poo problem seems to have cleared up — she may have found a more secret spot in the house to "do her business," and it’s hard to tell with four cats in the house whether she’s pooing in the litter box or not — but she still pees on the couches and the bed, at least once a day. The vet seems good, and I’m sure he would have noticed, or at least mentioned, a urinary tract infection (besides, the kitten is still VERY young…under or about 3 months). She gets lots of attention and is usually happy to see us, and plays constantly (and happily) with a slightly older cat in the house. I don’t think she lacks attention or feels put-out by us not loving her enough. On the OTHER hand, she often seems to do the peeing while Mel and I are at home, or while we sleep. On the OTHER OTHER hand, if she does it at home when we’re not there and it dries, it would be hard to tell as the entire house now smells vaguely like pee anyway. We’ve already changed the litter box and location and type of litter (trying that newspaper-pellet stuff). Again, I have no way of knowing if she ever uses it, or if she’s pooing somewhere more secretive (large, unfinished, EXTREMELY chaotic basement with lots of potential poo-places). I understand now that we should clean the litter daily, and I’ll pass that on to Mel (we’ve agreed that it’s her "rescue kitten," so she’ll be responsible for care and maintenance). We’re trying the regular show-her-pee-say-BAD-put-her-in-litterbox approach, but to no avail. Putting ‘er down is, of course, not an option. "Rescue kitten" and all. But I’m getting heartily sick of being woken up by pee and doing two loads of laundry a day… Help appreciated! Thanks! — Kick the crap out of me to respond… …or visit www.man-man.org!

Response:

Question:

Sitting here crying buckets.  Thankyou for writing this. Deb

(I apologize if this shows up twice. I posted yesterday and it never showed up) It’s been awhile since I’ve posted, and I want to first say thank you to the many people who expressed such kind sentiments during and after Ivan lost his battle with cancer. This is one of the most difficult things I have ever had to deal with, and I miss him terribly. Ivan succumbed to something called Tumor Lysis Syndrome, which is a rare condition. In Ivan’s case, he had a very large tumor which the first dose of chemo broke up almost completely in less than a week. While this may sound good on the surface, it is not and the results can basically poison the cat’s system. There is a basic definition of this here: http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/ccu/pearlindivweb.cfm?questionnumber=273 Ivan’s kidney values at this point were so high that the machine couldn’t even read them, and that made the prognosis even worse. There’s not much that can be done for TLS other than hospitalizing the cat and doing intense fluid therapy, and even then the odds aren’t good unless you can catch it very early. I queried a well known oncologist about this and he concurred and said that in all his years in practice he’s only seen two cases of TLS in cats. My first reaction was to try treatment, but I had to think about what was best for Ivan, and hospitalizing him for days in a strange place with strange people and extremely low chances of a positive outcome would not have been fair to him, and very selfish on my part. It killed me to have to say goodbye, but I knew it was the right thing to do. My vet left us alone so I could say goodbye. I told Ivan over and over how much I loved him. How I loved how he tore the exam room up on the day I trapped him. How I’d cherish the memory of how he scared the hell out of me when he escaped from his cage his first night home and gave me the battle of a lifetime trying to catch him and get him back in. How I’ll always cherish the 4 inch scar he left on my wrist. How I loved it when, after Stella was captured and subsequently delivered her kittens, he would lie next to the cage they were in and gently pat the kittens with his paws through the bars. How I loved that, even though he was a "tough customer", he would always show up in the "front line" if tuna was involved, and was so incredibly gentle taking food from my hand. There were so many things to say to him and so many memories that came flooding back, but the one that meant the most happened two days before he died. In almost six years, I had waited patiently, hoping the day would come when Ivan might discard his feral ways and I would be able to cuddle him or just pet him once in awhile. After he was first diagnosed, things started to get a little easier and as the days went by I was eventually able to pick him up without gloves and even give him pills. It was late at night and I was getting ready for bed and I came into the dining room to turn the lights off. Ivan was lying on the top shelf of one of the bunk beds I have for my cats by the windows. He was stretched out on his side and I slowly walked over to say goodnight. He stayed where he was and I reached out to gently run my hand along him. He stayed there and I leaned down and rested my head on his side and told him how much I loved him. And then it started. A very quiet, slow rumble that quickly blossomed into a steady purr. A moment like this was something I had waited almost six years for, and I couldn’t believe this was happening! I stayed like that for awhile, then kissed him on his head started to walk away… then turned right around and went back to him and again I pressed my cheek and ear to his side. That beautiful, wonderful sound was still there. We stayed like that for awhile, my face feeling the softness of his fur, the warmth of his body, and the lovely rumble coming from within. I had never been able to experience this kind of closeness with Ivan and I wanted to stay there forever. It was the best gift I have ever received, and that is a memory that will be in my heart always. And then it was time to say goodbye. I had been sitting with my arm around Ivan as he lay on the table and my face was level with his so I could look into his eyes while I talked to him, and kiss his face. It was just before he was to settle into his final sleep, that I saw in his eyes something I hadn’t seen before. It was trust. At that moment I KNEW he trusted me, and his eyes told me that he knew I was trying to help him the best I could. There is no way to even describe what it was like to experience that, but it meant more to me than anything in the world. When his final release came, it was quiet and gentle. He let out a little sigh and then he was gone. Of all the cats I’ve had to say goodbye to, Ivan was the hardest and I still grieve terribly for him at times. But he left a legacy, and I can’t help but wonder if he has somehow become a guardian angel for a feral cat or two… Actually, I think he has. ( to be continued… ) Megan

Response:

>http://home.attbi.com/~wi1w/Ivan.jpg >I consider it a miracle that the guy brought >him back to me, after I agonized over >giving him to them, when I found out they >let him outside on one of the busiest >streets in this city. I was lucky all he came >back with was worms and fleas. >Who knows, perhaps your Ivan’s spirit had >a helping hand here!

Oh Mark, what a wonderful story! I really would like to think my Ivan’s spirit somehow lent a helping paw. I truly think Ivan is a guardian angel for some kitties in need, but I’ll post about that in another thread. Thanks for telling your story, and I hope your Ivan, who BTW is a very handsome fellow, gets healthy quickly and spends many happy years with you. Megan "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu’s Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

Response:

<< I consider it a miracle that the guy brought him back to me, after I agonized over giving him to them, when I found out they let him outside on one of the busiest streets in this city. I was lucky all he came back with was worms and fleas. Who knows, perhaps your Ivan’s spirit had a helping hand here! Mark >> Awww, that’s sweet.  I’m glad he’s back home with you.  You sound like a very nice person. Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail) See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

Response:

(I apologize if this shows up twice. I posted yesterday and it never showed up) It’s been awhile since I’ve posted, and I want to first say thank you to the many people who expressed such kind sentiments during and after Ivan lost his battle with cancer. This is one of the most difficult things I have ever had to deal with, and I miss him terribly. …… Megan Welcome back, Megan. What a lovely tribute you wrote for Ivan. Annie, wiping eyes

Response:

<< At that moment I KNEW he trusted me, and his eyes told me that he knew I was trying to help him the best I could. There is no way to even describe what it was like to experience that, but it meant more to me than anything in the world.  >> That was lovely, Megan.  I’m glad he was able to demonstrate his trust in you so that you would know just how he felt…even though that makes the loss all the harder to bear. Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail) See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> (I apologize if this shows up twice. I posted yesterday and it never > showed up) > It’s been awhile since I’ve posted, and I want to first say thank you to > the many people who expressed such kind sentiments during and after Ivan > lost his battle with cancer. This is one of the most difficult things I > have ever had to deal with, and I miss him terribly. > I’m so sorry for your loss. Your story brought a tear to my eyes, but I > was hoping I could show you something to cheer you up a bit. Ivan has a > namesake, my cat Ivan the Terrible. He was one of a litter of 6 brothers > born to a dear, stray cat named Daisy, who had her kittens above the > roof of my bathroom , which is connected to a barn in this old apartment > I live in. Ivan the Terrible is seen in this picture, with his paw on > the pillow: > http://home.attbi.com/~wi1w/LITTER.JPG > I found homes for 3 and kept two, and my landlord’s son took Ivan. He > knocked on my door about 2 weeks ago, 1.5 years later, asking if I’d > take Ivan back. Seems he was making too much noise, attacking their > other, older cat, tearing up their furniture, and scratching their > daughter. It also turned out the moron never had him neutered, duh! Here > he is, the day after he came home, almost exactly 2 years old, and > hiding from his mother, who’s still hostile towards him: > http://home.attbi.com/~wi1w/Ivan.jpg > I consider it a miracle that the guy brought him back to me, after I > agonized over giving him to them, when I found out they let him outside > on one of the busiest streets in this city. I was lucky all he came back > with was worms and fleas. > Who knows, perhaps your Ivan’s spirit had a helping hand here! > Mark > Posted Via Binaries.net = SPEED+RETENTION+COMPLETION = http://www.binaries.net

He’s a beauty. People are really the limit aren’t they? I’m SO glad you got him back and have vetted him all up. Gad that was quite a kittle of kittens! Karen

Response:

How beautiful a tribute. I’m all teary so I hope no one comes to my cubicle but I had to say how glad I am that Ivan found YOU. Karen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> At that moment I KNEW he trusted me, and his eyes told me that he > knew I was trying to help him the best I could. There is no way to even > describe what it was like to experience that, but it meant more to me > than anything in the world. > When his final release came, it was quiet and gentle. He let out a > little sigh and then he was gone. > Of all the cats I’ve had to say goodbye to, Ivan was the hardest > and I still grieve terribly for him at times. > But he left a legacy, and I can’t help but wonder if he has > somehow become a guardian angel for a feral cat or two… > Actually, I think he has. > ( to be continued… ) > Megan

Response:

I am so sorry about your loss:( Hugs, Andr0

(I apologize if this shows up twice. I posted yesterday and it never showed up) It’s been awhile since I’ve posted, and I want to first say thank you to the many people who expressed such kind sentiments during and after Ivan lost his battle with cancer. This is one of the most difficult things I have ever had to deal with, and I miss him terribly. Ivan succumbed to something called Tumor Lysis Syndrome, which is a rare condition. In Ivan’s case, he had a very large tumor which the first dose of chemo broke up almost completely in less than a week. While this may sound good on the surface, it is not and the results can basically poison the cat’s system. There is a basic definition of this here: http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/ccu/pearlindivweb.cfm?questionnumber=273 Ivan’s kidney values at this point were so high that the machine couldn’t even read them, and that made the prognosis even worse. There’s not much that can be done for TLS other than hospitalizing the cat and doing intense fluid therapy, and even then the odds aren’t good unless you can catch it very early. I queried a well known oncologist about this and he concurred and said that in all his years in practice he’s only seen two cases of TLS in cats. My first reaction was to try treatment, but I had to think about what was best for Ivan, and hospitalizing him for days in a strange place with strange people and extremely low chances of a positive outcome would not have been fair to him, and very selfish on my part. It killed me to have to say goodbye, but I knew it was the right thing to do. My vet left us alone so I could say goodbye. I told Ivan over and over how much I loved him. How I loved how he tore the exam room up on the day I trapped him. How I’d cherish the memory of how he scared the hell out of me when he escaped from his cage his first night home and gave me the battle of a lifetime trying to catch him and get him back in. How I’ll always cherish the 4 inch scar he left on my wrist. How I loved it when, after Stella was captured and subsequently delivered her kittens, he would lie next to the cage they were in and gently pat the kittens with his paws through the bars. How I loved that, even though he was a "tough customer", he would always show up in the "front line" if tuna was involved, and was so incredibly gentle taking food from my hand. There were so many things to say to him and so many memories that came flooding back, but the one that meant the most happened two days before he died. In almost six years, I had waited patiently, hoping the day would come when Ivan might discard his feral ways and I would be able to cuddle him or just pet him once in awhile. After he was first diagnosed, things started to get a little easier and as the days went by I was eventually able to pick him up without gloves and even give him pills. It was late at night and I was getting ready for bed and I came into the dining room to turn the lights off. Ivan was lying on the top shelf of one of the bunk beds I have for my cats by the windows. He was stretched out on his side and I slowly walked over to say goodnight. He stayed where he was and I reached out to gently run my hand along him. He stayed there and I leaned down and rested my head on his side and told him how much I loved him. And then it started. A very quiet, slow rumble that quickly blossomed into a steady purr. A moment like this was something I had waited almost six years for, and I couldn’t believe this was happening! I stayed like that for awhile, then kissed him on his head started to walk away… then turned right around and went back to him and again I pressed my cheek and ear to his side. That beautiful, wonderful sound was still there. We stayed like that for awhile, my face feeling the softness of his fur, the warmth of his body, and the lovely rumble coming from within. I had never been able to experience this kind of closeness with Ivan and I wanted to stay there forever. It was the best gift I have ever received, and that is a memory that will be in my heart always. And then it was time to say goodbye. I had been sitting with my arm around Ivan as he lay on the table and my face was level with his so I could look into his eyes while I talked to him, and kiss his face. It was just before he was to settle into his final sleep, that I saw in his eyes something I hadn’t seen before. It was trust. At that moment I KNEW he trusted me, and his eyes told me that he knew I was trying to help him the best I could. There is no way to even describe what it was like to experience that, but it meant more to me than anything in the world. When his final release came, it was quiet and gentle. He let out a little sigh and then he was gone. Of all the cats I’ve had to say goodbye to, Ivan was the hardest and I still grieve terribly for him at times. But he left a legacy, and I can’t help but wonder if he has somehow become a guardian angel for a feral cat or two… Actually, I think he has. ( to be continued… ) Megan

Response:

Megan, What a beautiful post, and so terribly sad. I’m very sorry for your loss. Your memories remind me how important it is to cherish every moment with my guys and be grateful for whatever time we have together. Anna

Response:

Megan, What a beautiful tribute to Ivan.  He added much to your life and you added much to his.   Debbie Berry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > (I apologize if this shows up twice. I posted yesterday and it never > showed up) > It’s been awhile since I’ve posted, and I want to first say thank you to > the many people who expressed such kind sentiments during and after Ivan > lost his battle with cancer. This is one of the most difficult things I > have ever had to deal with, and I miss him terribly. >   Ivan succumbed to something called Tumor Lysis Syndrome, which is > a rare condition. In Ivan’s case, he had a very large tumor which the > first dose of chemo broke up almost completely in less than a week. > While this may sound good on the surface, it is not and the results can > basically poison the cat’s system. There is a basic definition of this > here: > http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/ccu/pearlindivweb.cfm?questionnumber=273

<some snipped> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Megan

Response:

I am so sorry about Ivan’s illness & death. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

(I apologize if this shows up twice. I posted yesterday and it never showed up) It’s been awhile since I’ve posted, and I want to first say thank you to the many people who expressed such kind sentiments during and after Ivan lost his battle with cancer. This is one of the most difficult things I have ever had to deal with, and I miss him terribly. Ivan succumbed to something called Tumor Lysis Syndrome, which is a rare condition. In Ivan’s case, he had a very large tumor which the first dose of chemo broke up almost completely in less than a week. While this may sound good on the surface, it is not and the results can basically poison the cat’s system. There is a basic definition of this here: http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/ccu/pearlindivweb.cfm?questionnumber=273 Ivan’s kidney values at this point were so high that the machine couldn’t even read them, and that made the prognosis even worse. There’s not much that can be done for TLS other than hospitalizing the cat and doing intense fluid therapy, and even then the odds aren’t good unless you can catch it very early. I queried a well known oncologist about this and he concurred and said that in all his years in practice he’s only seen two cases of TLS in cats. My first reaction was to try treatment, but I had to think about what was best for Ivan, and hospitalizing him for days in a strange place with strange people and extremely low chances of a positive outcome would not have been fair to him, and very selfish on my part. It killed me to have to say goodbye, but I knew it was the right thing to do. My vet left us alone so I could say goodbye. I told Ivan over and over how much I loved him. How I loved how he tore the exam room up on the day I trapped him. How I’d cherish the memory of how he scared the hell out of me when he escaped from his cage his first night home and gave me the battle of a lifetime trying to catch him and get him back in. How I’ll always cherish the 4 inch scar he left on my wrist. How I loved it when, after Stella was captured and subsequently delivered her kittens, he would lie next to the cage they were in and gently pat the kittens with his paws through the bars. How I loved that, even though he was a "tough customer", he would always show up in the "front line" if tuna was involved, and was so incredibly gentle taking food from my hand. There were so many things to say to him and so many memories that came flooding back, but the one that meant the most happened two days before he died. In almost six years, I had waited patiently, hoping the day would come when Ivan might discard his feral ways and I would be able to cuddle him or just pet him once in awhile. After he was first diagnosed, things started to get a little easier and as the days went by I was eventually able to pick him up without gloves and even give him pills. It was late at night and I was getting ready for bed and I came into the dining room to turn the lights off. Ivan was lying on the top shelf of one of the bunk beds I have for my cats by the windows. He was stretched out on his side and I slowly walked over to say goodnight. He stayed where he was and I reached out to gently run my hand along him. He stayed there and I leaned down and rested my head on his side and told him how much I loved him. And then it started. A very quiet, slow rumble that quickly blossomed into a steady purr. A moment like this was something I had waited almost six years for, and I couldn’t believe this was happening! I stayed like that for awhile, then kissed him on his head started to walk away… then turned right around and went back to him and again I pressed my cheek and ear to his side. That beautiful, wonderful sound was still there. We stayed like that for awhile, my face feeling the softness of his fur, the warmth of his body, and the lovely rumble coming from within. I had never been able to experience this kind of closeness with Ivan and I wanted to stay there forever. It was the best gift I have ever received, and that is a memory that will be in my heart always. And then it was time to say goodbye. I had been sitting with my arm around Ivan as he lay on the table and my face was level with his so I could look into his eyes while I talked to him, and kiss his face. It was just before he was to settle into his final sleep, that I saw in his eyes something I hadn’t seen before. It was trust. At that moment I KNEW he trusted me, and his eyes told me that he knew I was trying to help him the best I could. There is no way to even describe what it was like to experience that, but it meant more to me than anything in the world. When his final release came, it was quiet and gentle. He let out a little sigh and then he was gone. Of all the cats I’ve had to say goodbye to, Ivan was the hardest and I still grieve terribly for him at times. But he left a legacy, and I can’t help but wonder if he has somehow become a guardian angel for a feral cat or two… Actually, I think he has. ( to be continued… ) Megan

Response:

(I apologize if this shows up twice. I posted yesterday and it never showed up) It’s been awhile since I’ve posted, and I want to first say thank you to the many people who expressed such kind sentiments during and after Ivan lost his battle with cancer. This is one of the most difficult things I have ever had to deal with, and I miss him terribly. Ivan succumbed to something called Tumor Lysis Syndrome, Oh, jeez, I’m so sorry. My sympathies, Phil which is a rare condition. In Ivan’s case, he had a very large tumor which the first dose of chemo broke up almost completely in less than a week. While this may sound good on the surface, it is not and the results can basically poison the cat’s system. There is a basic definition of this here: http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/ccu/pearlindivweb.cfm?questionnumber=273 Ivan’s kidney values at this point were so high that the machine couldn’t even read them, and that made the prognosis even worse. There’s not much that can be done for TLS other than hospitalizing the cat and doing intense fluid therapy, and even then the odds aren’t good unless you can catch it very early. I queried a well known oncologist about this and he concurred and said that in all his years in practice he’s only seen two cases of TLS in cats. My first reaction was to try treatment, but I had to think about what was best for Ivan, and hospitalizing him for days in a strange place with strange people and extremely low chances of a positive outcome would not have been fair to him, and very selfish on my part. It killed me to have to say goodbye, but I knew it was the right thing to do. My vet left us alone so I could say goodbye. I told Ivan over and over how much I loved him. How I loved how he tore the exam room up on the day I trapped him. How I’d cherish the memory of how he scared the hell out of me when he escaped from his cage his first night home and gave me the battle of a lifetime trying to catch him and get him back in. How I’ll always cherish the 4 inch scar he left on my wrist. How I loved it when, after Stella was captured and subsequently delivered her kittens, he would lie next to the cage they were in and gently pat the kittens with his paws through the bars. How I loved that, even though he was a "tough customer", he would always show up in the "front line" if tuna was involved, and was so incredibly gentle taking food from my hand. There were so many things to say to him and so many memories that came flooding back, but the one that meant the most happened two days before he died. In almost six years, I had waited patiently, hoping the day would come when Ivan might discard his feral ways and I would be able to cuddle him or just pet him once in awhile. After he was first diagnosed, things started to get a little easier and as the days went by I was eventually able to pick him up without gloves and even give him pills. It was late at night and I was getting ready for bed and I came into the dining room to turn the lights off. Ivan was lying on the top shelf of one of the bunk beds I have for my cats by the windows. He was stretched out on his side and I slowly walked over to say goodnight. He stayed where he was and I reached out to gently run my hand along him. He stayed there and I leaned down and rested my head on his side and told him how much I loved him. And then it started. A very quiet, slow rumble that quickly blossomed into a steady purr. A moment like this was something I had waited almost six years for, and I couldn’t believe this was happening! I stayed like that for awhile, then kissed him on his head started to walk away… then turned right around and went back to him and again I pressed my cheek and ear to his side. That beautiful, wonderful sound was still there. We stayed like that for awhile, my face feeling the softness of his fur, the warmth of his body, and the lovely rumble coming from within. I had never been able to experience this kind of closeness with Ivan and I wanted to stay there forever. It was the best gift I have ever received, and that is a memory that will be in my heart always. And then it was time to say goodbye. I had been sitting with my arm around Ivan as he lay on the table and my face was level with his so I could look into his eyes while I talked to him, and kiss his face. It was just before he was to settle into his final sleep, that I saw in his eyes something I hadn’t seen before. It was trust. At that moment I KNEW he trusted me, and his eyes told me that he knew I was trying to help him the best I could. There is no way to even describe what it was like to experience that, but it meant more to me than anything in the world. When his final release came, it was quiet and gentle. He let out a little sigh and then he was gone. Of all the cats I’ve had to say goodbye to, Ivan was the hardest and I still grieve terribly for him at times. But he left a legacy, and I can’t help but wonder if he has somehow become a guardian angel for a feral cat or two… Actually, I think he has. ( to be continued… ) Megan

Response:

(I apologize if this shows up twice. I posted yesterday and it never showed up) It’s been awhile since I’ve posted, and I want to first say thank you to the many people who expressed such kind sentiments during and after Ivan lost his battle with cancer. This is one of the most difficult things I have ever had to deal with, and I miss him terribly.