Consumer Homes.

Question:

> LOL.  Yeah.  I suppose so.  I even thought about renting a car and > driving to the nearest major city outside of the storm zone – like > Philly.  But it still would have meant driving through Manhattan in > that snow. > Best Regards, > Bill Mattocks

Philly would not have helped. Philly was a mess too! alec

Response:

:>Greetings faithful! Your intrepid road-warrior is here again.  One :>more week in the barrel of a gun aimed at the bollocks of eternity, :>and my head has been spinning around so rapidly it is coming :>completely off my freaking neck. :>My satan-worshipping boss gave me a last-minute gig in midtown :>Manhattan (that’s New York City, you rubes), teaching a class from :>December 1 to December 5.  Well, the sun does not always shine on me, :>and this time was no exception. :>My travel agent informed me that there were very few flights to be had :>into NYC for that time-frame, she was talking about flying me into :>Philly or Baltimore, etc.  To hell with that noise.  Also, hotels were :>at a premium.  Midtown Manhattan is not the cheapest place on earth :>when Christmas is not breathing down our necks like a drunk on a :>three-day bender, and when the Christmas Spirit is upon those who live :>in flyover country, they really seem to develop a yen to hie :>themselves off to Broadway and view them thar neon lights.  Hotels, :>when available, run from $300 a night and up.  Some of them were :>quoting $1600 per night, and one was a spectacular $12,500 per night. :>At those rates, damned right I’m stealing the towels.  At those :>prices, I’ll steam off the wallpaper and roll up the damned carpet :>when I check out. :>My company, whose management are all apparently on crack, has a :>company policy of $150 per night, tops.  Regardless of locality.  Oh :>yeah, that was going to work out well. I really don’t understand your depth of being a company man. If there aren’t any reasonable hotels at your companies per diem, tell them. You should not have to make the choice of spending your own money or sleeping on a park bench. If they do not make enough from the class to pay for expenses, they should not offer the class. — http://www.dissensoftware.com

Response:

> My company wanted me to save money on a hotel by staying in Weehawken, > New Jersey and taking the ferry across every morning (never rent a car > in Manhattan).  I could not feature that, so I spent the weekend > before the trip looking around online.  My travel agent recommended > that I try a bucketshop like hotels.com, as all the available hotels > had been turned over to consolidators by then and she could no longer > get me a hotel room at all.  Lovely.  Oh yeah, there was a ’boutique’ > B&B in Chelsea.  No smoking.  Can you see me staying there?  Me, > neither.

I don’t know about Weehawken, but the Jersey City waterfront has some pretty good hotels (with great views!) for good prices, and both ferry and subway (PATH) connections into Manhattan. Sure, it’s a touch further from midtown than you’d like to be, but we were very impressed when we stayed there. (There’s a Doubletree, a Hyatt and an extended-stay place called Candlewood Suites that we really enjoyed…)

Response:

The Bill Mattocks wrote >…. something that I had forgotten some time ago ? everyone who >works at EWR hates people…

Arriving/Departing passengers THINK they are already/still in New York. Airport workers KNOW they are in NJ?

Response:

> I really don’t understand your depth of being a company man.

Less a ‘company man’ than a ’salaryman’.  I like getting a paycheck, and I’m one of 5 in my department who still do – down from about 25. I am not the best at what I do, but I’m good.  I have to give what I can to keep me valuable to the company.  Times will change. And then, there’s that Marine mentality that’s still operating twenty-some odd years on.  Tell me to take the hill, then By God I’m going to take the hill. > If there aren’t any reasonable hotels at your companies per diem, tell them. > You should not have to make the choice of spending your own money or sleeping > on a park bench.

In many cases, I’d agree with you – and I do get my luxuries most of the time.  I stay at Courtyards – nice enough and better than the Motel 6.  In this case, there were just damned few rooms still available for the entire week in Manhattan.  My company usually does not deny me the few extra bucks I spend on the hotels, air fare, or rental cars – but when they can pimp me out for a few bucks on a couple days notice, they don’t stop to think what it does to me.  I try to take the bad with the good.  And lately, I guesss because of the end of the year/quarter, they’ve been nickel and diming me on my expenses. > If they do not make enough from the class to pay for expenses, they should not > offer the class.

They’re managers.  You have to talk to them slowly and use small words.  I just try to give ‘em something shiny to play with and stay out of their way. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

Response:

> ah, Bill, we just have your best interests at heart…

I know, I know.  And don’t think I don’t appreciate it.  Nothing like torturing drug addicts to show them the error of their ways.  That’ll work. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

Response:

> Philly would not have helped. Philly was a mess too!

I even thought of renting a car and driving on to my next assignment in Kansas City.  But I really wanted to go home and see my wife.  Call me crazy, I like to see her for 10 hours every week or so. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

Response:

> I don’t know about Weehawken, but the Jersey City waterfront has some > pretty good hotels (with great views!) for good prices, and both ferry > and subway (PATH) connections into Manhattan. Sure, it’s a touch > further from midtown than you’d like to be, but we were very impressed > when we stayed there. (There’s a Doubletree, a Hyatt and an > extended-stay place called Candlewood Suites that we really > enjoyed…)

If you’re in Manhattan for fun, sure.  But I’m working.  I carry a 30 pound pack on my back and I’m not walking a step more than I have to. I was there to teach classes – 8 hours a day on my feet.  An hour going to and from work turns an 8 hour day into a 10 hour misery. Not to mention the fact that I found it very difficult to find cabs in midtown – probably due to the shopping season.  I can’t feature trudging 25 blocks from the ferry landing to 56th and 8th twice a day. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

Response:

> Wow, Bill!  What a trip! > I’ve had the misfortune of staying at the Milford Plaza.  You make it sound > downright wonderful  I remember it being even worse.

I didn’t mention the clientele… The place was packed with retirees, foreign tourists, and what appeared to be crack ho’s.  However, my friend Austin Hastings came up and visited me one evening last week, and he thought they were college students.  Hmmm.  The stench of cheap perfume in the elevators told me otherwise, but kids are different nowadays.  And their music?  It’s just noise.  I’ll take Steppenwolf over System of a Down anytime. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

Response:

>   Yeah, my thoughts too.  As soon as I saw those original flights being > canceled, I probably would have watched the weather channel and headed > by ground in a favorable direction. He could probably have driven > to Cincinatti in a day.

Sure, but who knew the airports would be closed nearly all weekend?  I figured that they’d have the plows out, get the runways cleared, and by Saturday afternoon we’d be fine.  I figured wrong, but what are ya gonna do? Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

Response:

Bill — I was in NYC this weekend too.  I’m going to post a trip report when I have some time, appropriately titled "Planes, Trains, and Automobiles".    It was a real mess in NYC this weekend, but I flew in Friday and departed Monday. Flying in Friday was terrible, but luckily I did manage to get in on another airline to a different NYC airport after having my original flight cancelled. It was a good, but interesting weekend.  When I left on Monday, things were still a mess at the airports.  I saw a friend off Sunday and T7 at JFK was pretty bad and from what I heard, a riot almost broke out (it got pretty damn close from what I heard, police called in, etc). Will post my report when I have time, likely tomorrow — it’ll be a good read. Steve

Response:

> Sure, but who knew the airports would be closed nearly all weekend?  I > figured that they’d have the plows out, get the runways cleared, and > by Saturday afternoon we’d be fine.  I figured wrong, but what are ya > gonna do?

In the northeast, when they start to issue PR notices advising pax that they are waving change penalties due to the predicted storm, it means that they expect a backlog of a few days. As I recall, those started coming out on Thursday night.

Response:

> >   Yeah, my thoughts too.  As soon as I saw those original flights being > canceled, I probably would have watched the weather channel and headed > by ground in a favorable direction. He could probably have driven > to Cincinatti in a day. > Sure, but who knew the airports would be closed nearly all weekend?

  No, no, no.  You don’t understand.  Monday morning quarterbacks don’t have to worry about problems like this.  We already KNOW you WERE stuck.  It makes the job SO much easier. >  I figured that they’d have the plows out, get the runways cleared, and > by Saturday afternoon we’d be fine.  I figured wrong, but what are ya > gonna do?

   I can’t say I would have made a whole lot different decision.   I’m about 50/50 on such.  I’d probably have a leg up on ya though having sat through a few more of those living in Michigan as I did. It helps to know how to interpret TV weather broadcasts for a certian area.  It took me a few years after moving to Florida to translate what they were saying into a risk/benefit analysis for my own situation.

Response:

The Bill Mattocks muttered…. > ah, Bill, we just have your best interests at heart… > I know, I know.  And don’t think I don’t appreciate it.  Nothing like > torturing drug addicts to show them the error of their ways.  That’ll > work.

I suspect that no small part of your unhappy hours in NYC may have bbeen due to a traditional furriner’s perspective of the subway system, suburban rail or regular railroad travel.  Even with a 30lb backpack, there were some easily accessible (with no more walking) alternatives to the Milford as long as you’re willing to forego "Midtown Manhattan" (in exchange for Lower Manhattan, a couple of parts of Brooklyn, or as mentioned NJ.   Shucks, given where you were working, you could have commuted from Connecticutt and not walked 10 blocks.  Time?  Yes, but in contrast to us puir Southwesterners, those rich in sophistication new Yorkers seem unfazed by hour commutes. Like the personnel at EWR, NYC hoteliers (except those in the fashionable high dollar boutiques) seem a surly lot to those of us who stay in Fairfields and Courtyards out here in the big empty middle.  For four decades, I’ve gotten a preferential rate at an old midtown hotel, the Warwick.  Today, the preferential rate is only a slightly more modest extortion, and the staff are but a travesty of yesteryear’s friendly and accommodating hosts. With all your experience and apparent airlines-cajoling ability, I’m surpised you didn’t head South on the train at first opportunity. TMO

Response:

hey, been to SoCal – HOUR commutes?  Those are the SHORT ones

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Bill Mattocks muttered…. >> ah, Bill, we just have your best interests at heart… > I know, I know.  And don’t think I don’t appreciate it.  Nothing like > torturing drug addicts to show them the error of their ways.  That’ll > work. > I suspect that no small part of your unhappy hours in NYC may have bbeen > due to a traditional furriner’s perspective of the subway system, suburban > rail or regular railroad travel.  Even with a 30lb backpack, there were > some easily accessible (with no more walking) alternatives to the Milford > as long as you’re willing to forego "Midtown Manhattan" (in exchange for > Lower Manhattan, a couple of parts of Brooklyn, or as mentioned NJ. > Shucks, given where you were working, you could have commuted from > Connecticutt and not walked 10 blocks.  Time?  Yes, but in contrast to us > puir Southwesterners, those rich in sophistication new Yorkers seem unfazed > by hour commutes. > Like the personnel at EWR, NYC hoteliers (except those in the fashionable > high dollar boutiques) seem a surly lot to those of us who stay in > Fairfields and Courtyards out here in the big empty middle.  For four > decades, I’ve gotten a preferential rate at an old midtown hotel, the > Warwick.  Today, the preferential rate is only a slightly more modest > extortion, and the staff are but a travesty of yesteryear’s friendly and > accommodating hosts. > With all your experience and apparent airlines-cajoling ability, I’m > surpised you didn’t head South on the train at first opportunity. > TMO

Response:

kinda hard to clear it when it keeps falling as fast as you can MOVE it  ;-) (been there, done that.  I HATE snow except when it’s in the MOUNTAINS – where it belongs)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->   Yeah, my thoughts too.  As soon as I saw those original flights being > canceled, I probably would have watched the weather channel and headed > by ground in a favorable direction. He could probably have driven > to Cincinatti in a day. > Sure, but who knew the airports would be closed nearly all weekend?  I > figured that they’d have the plows out, get the runways cleared, and > by Saturday afternoon we’d be fine.  I figured wrong, but what are ya > gonna do? > Best Regards, > Bill Mattocks

Response:

> In the northeast, when they start to issue PR notices advising pax that they > are waving change penalties due to the predicted storm, it means that they > expect a backlog of a few days. As I recall, those started coming out on > Thursday night.

I will have to remember that for the future.  Next week, I’m flying into ALB on Sunday, working in Pittsfield, MA, driving to Portsmouth, New Hampshire, working there, and then flying out of BOS on Friday. Should be fun. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

Response:

> I suspect that no small part of your unhappy hours in NYC may have bbeen > due to a traditional furriner’s perspective of the subway system, suburban > rail or regular railroad travel.  Even with a 30lb backpack, there were > some easily accessible (with no more walking) alternatives to the Milford > as long as you’re willing to forego "Midtown Manhattan" (in exchange for > Lower Manhattan, a couple of parts of Brooklyn, or as mentioned NJ.   > Shucks, given where you were working, you could have commuted from > Connecticutt and not walked 10 blocks.  Time?  Yes, but in contrast to us > puir Southwesterners, those rich in sophistication new Yorkers seem unfazed > by hour commutes.

I’m sure you’re right – but I found about on Wednesday of the week previous that I’d be in Manhattan the following week.  Not much time to prepare, look up subway routes/time tables, and so on.  Was it do-able?  Yes.  Was it do-able by me in the time I had to prepare? Probably not. It’s like today – I’m in Kansas City, and it snowed last night – I was an hour late to work – the hiway was jammed up.  Some of the people I’m working for here wanted to know why I didn’t just take umpty-ump street.  Uh, because I have no idea where umpty-ump street is or how to take it.  I only know one way to work most times. > Like the personnel at EWR, NYC hoteliers (except those in the fashionable > high dollar boutiques) seem a surly lot to those of us who stay in > Fairfields and Courtyards out here in the big empty middle.  For four > decades, I’ve gotten a preferential rate at an old midtown hotel, the > Warwick.  Today, the preferential rate is only a slightly more modest > extortion, and the staff are but a travesty of yesteryear’s friendly and > accommodating hosts.

Unlike many, I don’t find rude service and surly employees to be ‘Noo Yawk Charming’. > With all your experience and apparent airlines-cajoling ability, I’m > surpised you didn’t head South on the train at first opportunity.

I did consider it.  My biggest concern was for my wallet.  Once a ticket is cancelled and I don’t have an alternative flight scheduled, I have a chance to do something creative and not have to eat the cost.  But as long as AA kept giving me new reservations on later flights, if I walk away from the ticket, and it ends up not being cancelled for whatever reason, I pay for it.  Out of MY pocket.  Not fun. My wife and I are taking the train from ABQ-CHI (Amtrak’s designation for ORD) at Christmas this year.  I got FF tickets for all the relatives, and we’re taking the TRAIN.  Got a sleeper car, we’ll see how it works out. Best Regards, Bill Mattocks

Response:

Greetings faithful! Your intrepid road-warrior is here again.  One more week in the barrel of a gun aimed at the bollocks of eternity, and my head has been spinning around so rapidly it is coming completely off my freaking neck. My satan-worshipping boss gave me a last-minute gig in midtown Manhattan (that’s New York City, you rubes), teaching a class from December 1 to December 5.  Well, the sun does not always shine on me, and this time was no exception. My travel agent informed me that there were very few flights to be had into NYC for that time-frame, she was talking about flying me into Philly or Baltimore, etc.  To hell with that noise.  Also, hotels were at a premium.  Midtown Manhattan is not the cheapest place on earth when Christmas is not breathing down our necks like a drunk on a three-day bender, and when the Christmas Spirit is upon those who live in flyover country, they really seem to develop a yen to hie themselves off to Broadway and view them thar neon lights.  Hotels, when available, run from $300 a night and up.  Some of them were quoting $1600 per night, and one was a spectacular $12,500 per night. At those rates, damned right I’m stealing the towels.  At those prices, I’ll steam off the wallpaper and roll up the damned carpet when I check out. My company, whose management are all apparently on crack, has a company policy of $150 per night, tops.  Regardless of locality.  Oh yeah, that was going to work out well. My travel agent finally came through with a round-trip on AA for $800; ABQ-ORD-LGA and back.  It was all that was left

Question:

"To all of our men and women in uniform, and to their parents and families: Help is on the way!" — Dick Cheney campaigning in the 2000 presidential elections. UPI reports: "One month after President Bush greeted soldiers at Fort Stewart — home of the famed Third Infantry Division — as heroes on their return from Iraq, approximately 600 sick or injured members of the Army Reserves and National Guard are warehoused in rows of spare, steamy and dark cement barracks in a sandy field, waiting for doctors to treat their wounds or illnesses. … "Some of the soldiers said they have waited six hours a day for an appointment without seeing a doctor. Others described waiting weeks or months without getting a diagnosis or proper treatment. "Soldiers here estimate that nearly 40 percent of the personnel now on medical hold were deployed to Iraq. Of those who went, many described clusters of strange ailments, like heart and lung problems, among previously healthy troops. They said the Army has tried to refuse them benefits, claiming the injuries and illnesses were due to a ‘pre-existing condition,’ prior to military service. "Most soldiers in medical hold at Fort Stewart stay in rows of rectangular, gray, single-story cinder block barracks without bathrooms or air conditioning. They are dark and sweltering in the southern Georgia heat and humidity. Around 60 soldiers cram in the bunk beds in each barrack. "Soldiers make their way by walking or using crutches through the sandy dirt to a communal bathroom, where they have propped office partitions between otherwise open toilets for privacy. A row of leaky sinks sits on an opposite wall. The latrine smells of urine and is full of bugs, because many windows have no screens. Showering is in a communal, cinder block room. Soldiers say they have to buy their own toilet paper." Since UPI broke this story, CNN has reconfirmed it, and the Pentagon says today it will send a team to Georgia to investigate. CNN also quotes a sergeant who says Fort Stewart soldiers are afraid to talk to the news media about their poor treatment. "Here we all were overseas, ready to get ourselves killed in order to bring democracy to these countries, and we get home and we don’t even have freedom of speech anymore," she says. * * * The obvious solution: Horrifically overpay some overcharging defense contractor to go to Iraq and build "a $500 million to $700 million children’s hospital with all the latest technology." After all, the home front should always come last, right? Then again, if we wanted to divert some of the $87 billion (billion!) the President wants to spend in Iraq to places like Fort Stewart we could do so easily — because that $87 billion isn’t even necessary right now. According to a study by the non-partisan Congressional Research Service, we’ve already approved hundreds of billions of dollars for military needs, both general and Iraq-specific, and the White House has enough cash to play with through early May. Apparently Bush is trying to pile up as much slush for the war as he can now because he doesn’t want to ask later — during an election season. Leadership like this does not go unnoted. So it’s not surprising a survey by Stars and Stripes newspaper of troops serving in Iraq found half of them won’t re-enlist; half of them feel their training was inadequate; and a third were even willing to state that the whole Iraq war is of little or no value and lacks a clearly defined mission. http://www.thenation.com/outrage/index.mhtml?bid=6

Response:

November, 2004 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > "To all of our men and women in uniform, and to their parents and families: > Help is on the way!" — Dick Cheney campaigning in the 2000 presidential > elections. > UPI reports: "One month after President Bush greeted soldiers at Fort > Stewart — home of the famed Third Infantry Division — as heroes on their > return from Iraq, approximately 600 sick or injured members of the Army > Reserves and National Guard are warehoused in rows of spare, steamy and dark > cement barracks in a sandy field, waiting for doctors to treat their wounds > or illnesses. … > "Some of the soldiers said they have waited six hours a day for an > appointment without seeing a doctor. Others described waiting weeks or > months without getting a diagnosis or proper treatment. > "Soldiers here estimate that nearly 40 percent of the personnel now on > medical hold were deployed to Iraq. Of those who went, many described > clusters of strange ailments, like heart and lung problems, among previously > healthy troops. They said the Army has tried to refuse them benefits, > claiming the injuries and illnesses were due to a ‘pre-existing condition,’ > prior to military service. > "Most soldiers in medical hold at Fort Stewart stay in rows of rectangular, > gray, single-story cinder block barracks without bathrooms or air > conditioning. They are dark and sweltering in the southern Georgia heat and > humidity. Around 60 soldiers cram in the bunk beds in each barrack. > "Soldiers make their way by walking or using crutches through the sandy dirt > to a communal bathroom, where they have propped office partitions between > otherwise open toilets for privacy. A row of leaky sinks sits on an opposite > wall. The latrine smells of urine and is full of bugs, because many windows > have no screens. Showering is in a communal, cinder block room. Soldiers say > they have to buy their own toilet paper." > Since UPI broke this story, CNN has reconfirmed it, and the Pentagon says > today it will send a team to Georgia to investigate. CNN also quotes a > sergeant who says Fort Stewart soldiers are afraid to talk to the news media > about their poor treatment. "Here we all were overseas, ready to get > ourselves killed in order to bring democracy to these countries, and we get > home and we don’t even have freedom of speech anymore," she says. > * * * > The obvious solution: Horrifically overpay some overcharging defense > contractor to go to Iraq and build "a $500 million to $700 million > children’s hospital with all the latest technology." After all, the home > front should always come last, right? > Then again, if we wanted to divert some of the $87 billion (billion!) the > President wants to spend in Iraq to places like Fort Stewart we could do so > easily — because that $87 billion isn’t even necessary right now. According > to a study by the non-partisan Congressional Research Service, we’ve already > approved hundreds of billions of dollars for military needs, both general > and Iraq-specific, and the White House has enough cash to play with through > early May. Apparently Bush is trying to pile up as much slush for the war as > he can now because he doesn’t want to ask later — during an election > season. > Leadership like this does not go unnoted. So it’s not surprising a survey by > Stars and Stripes newspaper of troops serving in Iraq found half of them > won’t re-enlist; half of them feel their training was inadequate; and a > third were even willing to state that the whole Iraq war is of little or no > value and lacks a clearly defined mission. > http://www.thenation.com/outrage/index.mhtml?bid=6

Response:

Question:

I’m interested in using a hydronic floor system, for cooling.  Presumably there would be one or two central dehumidifiers used as well.  The house is in central Virginia.  I’m trying to avoid installing forced air A/C (which would only be used 10-20 days a year anyways) in a superinsulated (straw-bale), passive solar house. Comments welcome… a

Response:

> I’m interested in using a hydronic floor system, for cooling.  Presumably > there would be one or two central dehumidifiers used as well.

… The main problem is that as you cool air there is a tendency for water to condense. If you cool the air with your floors then the water will condense on your floors and you’ll have cold, wet floors. Due to the fact that warm air rises, you’ll find that even with cold floors you may still have warm rooms. Anthony

Response:

> I’m interested in using a hydronic floor system, for cooling. Presumably > there would be one or two central dehumidifiers used as well. > … > The main problem is that as you cool air there is a tendency for water > to condense. If you cool the air with your floors then the water will > condense on your floors and you’ll have cold, wet floors. Due to the > fact that warm air rises, you’ll find that even with cold floors you > may still have warm rooms. > Anthony

I realize that the floor has to be kept above the dewpoint.  Thus the use of whole house de-humidifiers.  It is my understanding that such systems are in use in Europe.  I’m trying to get more info and hopefully some case studies here in the US (and pref in the mid-atlantic region). a

Response:

> I’m interested in using a hydronic floor system, for cooling.  Presumably > there would be one or two central dehumidifiers used as well.  The house is > in central Virginia.  I’m trying to avoid installing forced air A/C (which > would only be used 10-20 days a year anyways) in a superinsulated > (straw-bale), passive solar house. > Comments welcome… > a

It would be a wonderful way of heating the house.  When I build my dream house the bathrooms are going to be heated like that.  No more cold feet shock when I step out of the shower!  Yay!     I’d not bother using it for cooling.  There is the condensation problem that the other fellow mentioned, and if you are putting in central dehumidifiers, you need to put in ductwork anyway.     Have you considered putting in a whole house fan?  Those are far more efficient and are also mighty handy when you burn something on the stove..     –Dale

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m interested in using a hydronic floor system, for cooling. Presumably > there would be one or two central dehumidifiers used as well.  The house is > in central Virginia.  I’m trying to avoid installing forced air A/C (which > would only be used 10-20 days a year anyways) in a superinsulated > (straw-bale), passive solar house. > Comments welcome… > a > It would be a wonderful way of heating the house.  When I build my > dream house the bathrooms are going to be heated like that.  No more > cold feet shock when I step out of the shower!  Yay! >     I’d not bother using it for cooling.  There is the condensation problem > that the other fellow mentioned, and if you are putting in central > dehumidifiers, you need to put in ductwork anyway. >     Have you considered putting in a whole house fan?  Those are far > more efficient and are also mighty handy when you burn something on > the stove.. >     –Dale

Yes.  Will have whole-house fan.  My strategy is as follows: hydronic heat (geothermal, with water-piped fireplace and solar h2o panels integrated) hydronic cooling (geothermal) two in-ceiling dehumidifiers (house is two main areas, and mostly ‘open’ space) whole house fan for evening cooling when appropriate. walls and ceiling expected to be R40 min. passive solar design, with deep overhangs, mass, appropriate glazing etc. Really the only ‘innovation’ is the hydronic cooling.  If you google it, there’s a bunch of pretty good links, but little in the way of case studies. a

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I’m interested in using a hydronic floor system, for cooling. > Presumably > > there would be one or two central dehumidifiers used as well.  The house > is > > in central Virginia.  I’m trying to avoid installing forced air A/C > (which > > would only be used 10-20 days a year anyways) in a superinsulated > > (straw-bale), passive solar house. > > Comments welcome… > > a > It would be a wonderful way of heating the house.  When I build my > dream house the bathrooms are going to be heated like that.  No more > cold feet shock when I step out of the shower!  Yay! >     I’d not bother using it for cooling.  There is the condensation > problem > that the other fellow mentioned, and if you are putting in central > dehumidifiers, you need to put in ductwork anyway. >     Have you considered putting in a whole house fan?  Those are far > more efficient and are also mighty handy when you burn something on > the stove.. >     –Dale > Yes.  Will have whole-house fan.  My strategy is as follows: > hydronic heat (geothermal, with water-piped fireplace and solar h2o panels > integrated) > hydronic cooling (geothermal) > two in-ceiling dehumidifiers (house is two main areas, and mostly ‘open’ > space) > whole house fan for evening cooling when appropriate. > walls and ceiling expected to be R40 min. > passive solar design, with deep overhangs, mass, appropriate glazing etc. > Really the only ‘innovation’ is the hydronic cooling.  If you google it, > there’s a bunch of pretty good links, but little in the way of case studies. > a

   It is worth a try, the big thing is the management of the system to keep the floor from becoming a condensing surface.  If you are still in construction, see if you can add some water loops on vertical wall surfaces, with a drip pan underneath them to catch the condensation, so even if floor cooling doesn’t work out, you still can use the cool water effectively.     I thought maybe water loops in the ceiling would be good, but that is where the air is going to be hottest, and if that starts condensing, then you have created an indoor rainstorm.  Which would be a bad thing.     If you can direct the incoming air to the house through some sort of pre-treatment area, that would be a great place for these water loops to be placed in the summer.   even if they do condense, they dehumidify the incoming air and cool it off.  Have you looked into those buried pipe systems that pipe in outside air and run it through a long buried pipe and then into the house with a small fan to suck that air into the house?  This gives you geo-ambiant air for makeup into the house, allowing you to make the house more airtight elsewhere.     –Dale

Response:

remember, that if you don’t want condensation on the floor, you have to dehumidify the air. however if the watervapor should condense in the dehumidifier and not on the floor, this also means your dehumidifier is doing most of the cooling job!! (based on the assumption, that the dehumidifier is one of the (most-common) types based on cooling)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m interested in using a hydronic floor system, for cooling.  Presumably > there would be one or two central dehumidifiers used as well.  The house is > in central Virginia.  I’m trying to avoid installing forced air A/C (which > would only be used 10-20 days a year anyways) in a superinsulated > (straw-bale), passive solar house. > Comments welcome… > a

Response:

<snip> > the incoming air and cool it off.  Have you looked into those buried pipe > systems that pipe in outside air and run it through a long buried pipe and > then into the house with a small fan to suck that air into the house? This > gives you geo-ambiant air for makeup into the house, allowing you to make > the house more airtight elsewhere. >     –Dale

Have not…  but sounds like and interesting idea – sort of like e cheap geothermal forced air (!). thanks a

Response:

> remember, that if you don’t want condensation on the floor, you have to > dehumidify the air. > however if the watervapor should condense in the dehumidifier and not on the > floor, this also means your dehumidifier is doing most of the cooling job!! > (based on the assumption, that the dehumidifier is one of the (most-common) > types based on cooling)

Good point.  I’m having a mech eng do some consulting/number crunching.  It will be interesting to ask about this. a

Response:

I saw this tried in a solar underground home in central Missouri a number of years ago.  The pipes were there for heating and there was a 65*F spring on the property so 2 +2 added up to the inevitable 5.  The floors were wet and ruined a bunch of carpeting.  They ended up doing, somewhat, as someone else has suggested by running the water through (believe it or not) a pair of truck radiators with several small solar fans to push the air around.  The radiators put off several gallons of condensate a day (I think) but it was no problem because it was all happening in the utility space where it was easily controlled.  Last I heard the home has remained ultra low grid power use for all these years. Also, they HAD to circulate the air inside and had a centralized de-humidifier that ran almost year ’round. Primary heat was about 2 cords of wood/year if memory serves—for almost 2400 Sq. ft. !

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m interested in using a hydronic floor system, for cooling.  Presumably > there would be one or two central dehumidifiers used as well.  The house is > in central Virginia.  I’m trying to avoid installing forced air A/C (which > would only be used 10-20 days a year anyways) in a superinsulated > (straw-bale), passive solar house. > Comments welcome… > a

Response:

This is kind of what I wanted to do. Place one tank under ground with hoses to a pump unit. Place a batch solar collector to my hot water line and to the pump unit. The batch water heater will have three sections so it can be set so that during summer it can make just enough hot water for DHW use. During winter it can be set to provide both DHW and hot water to the pump. The pump sends the hot or cold water to an automotive radiator inside an old window air conditioner. The fan draws air over the radiator and either heats or cools it. The advantage I see is that the condensation would be outside. The case would have to be insulated. Any ideas on doing it this way?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I saw this tried in a solar underground home in central Missouri a number of > years ago.  The pipes were there for heating and there was a 65*F spring on > the property so 2 +2 added up to the inevitable 5.  The floors were wet and > ruined a bunch of carpeting.  They ended up doing, somewhat, as someone else > has suggested by running the water through (believe it or not) a pair of > truck radiators with several small solar fans to push the air around.  The > radiators put off several gallons of condensate a day (I think) but it was > no problem because it was all happening in the utility space where it was > easily controlled.  Last I heard the home has remained ultra low grid power > use for all these years. > Also, they HAD to circulate the air inside and had a centralized > de-humidifier that ran almost year ’round. > Primary heat was about 2 cords of wood/year if memory serves—for almost > 2400 Sq. ft. ! > I’m interested in using a hydronic floor system, for cooling. Presumably > there would be one or two central dehumidifiers used as well.  The house > is > in central Virginia.  I’m trying to avoid installing forced air A/C (which > would only be used 10-20 days a year anyways) in a superinsulated > (straw-bale), passive solar house. > Comments welcome… > a

Response:

> I’m interested in using a hydronic floor system, for cooling.

Sounds doable. >Presumably there would be one or two central dehumidifiers used as well.

Dumping the latent heat outdoors… >I realize that the floor has to be kept above the dewpoint…

Sure. Ceiling fans and thermal mass and night ventilation can help. You might try some numbers… Nick

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Question:

  First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. US market apparently doesn’t care.   Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.? — de N2MPU Jack FN20 Proud NRA member You can learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.com/

Response:

>  First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder >containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of >soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to >continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. >US market apparently doesn’t care. >  Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.?

I hope your company isn’t implying that Europeans eat their circuit boards.  They’re not all French you know. It can’t mean that lead-free solder does a GOOD job soldering if it’s such a pain in the ass to solder with. I’m using Kester because I don’t work for your company.  So far it’s the best solder I’ve ever used. Pete — You don’t have to go home, but you can’t stay here.

Response:

Hi, Plumbers using for quite some time. Must be OK, I guess. I did not hear them complaining. Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >   First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder > containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of > soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to > continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. > US market apparently doesn’t care. >   Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.?

Response:

It sucks. There are certain pastes and formulations containing antimony and bismuth that are supposed to be "compatible" with existing build processes. Why anyone would rather have antimony and bismuth instead of lead is beyond me. "Green" politics run amok, along with some protectionist motivations from the EU is all it really is. Some companies in the process industry are looking at alternatives, like conductive epoxies. The other reason is that inductance from solder blobs is starting to become significant in the speeds some stuff runs at today. >  First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder >containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of >soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to >continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. >US market apparently doesn’t care. >  Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.? >– >de N2MPU Jack FN20 >Proud NRA member

– Dr. Nuketopia Sorry, no e-Mail. Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

Response:

Lead is serious shit.  Children in particular should not be around it.  For those of us who don’t do much, so what?  Plumbing code here changed  in the early 90s. The lead free solders take lots more heat, so much the code on copper went heavier.  I’m a chicken shit in amps, and will stick to lead in there.  If  I worked every day or in production with the stuff I would expect my employer or self to take precautions. I know a logger, who in the days of leaded gas got pretty sick, yellow eyes and all. turns out it was lead from the saws.  I would not be so quick to hit the ‘greens’ on this one.    Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It sucks. > There are certain pastes and formulations containing antimony and bismuth that > are supposed to be "compatible" with existing build processes. > Why anyone would rather have antimony and bismuth instead of lead is beyond me. > "Green" politics run amok, along with some protectionist motivations from the > EU is all it really is. > Some companies in the process industry are looking at alternatives, like > conductive epoxies. The other reason is that inductance from solder blobs is > starting to become significant in the speeds some stuff runs at today. >  First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder >containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of >soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to >continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. >US market apparently doesn’t care. >  Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.? >– >de N2MPU Jack FN20 >Proud NRA member > — > Dr. Nuketopia > Sorry, no e-Mail. > Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

Response:

> I know a logger, who in the days of leaded gas got pretty sick, yellow eyes and > all. turns out it was lead from the saws.  I would not be so quick to hit the > ‘greens’ on this one.    Chris

the amount of lead in solder is somewhat less to the amount of lead he was exposed to – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It sucks. > There are certain pastes and formulations containing antimony and bismuth that > are supposed to be "compatible" with existing build processes. > Why anyone would rather have antimony and bismuth instead of lead is beyond me. > "Green" politics run amok, along with some protectionist motivations from the > EU is all it really is. > Some companies in the process industry are looking at alternatives, like > conductive epoxies. The other reason is that inductance from solder blobs is > starting to become significant in the speeds some stuff runs at today. > >  First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder > >containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of > >soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to > >continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. > >US market apparently doesn’t care. > >  Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.? > >– > >de N2MPU Jack FN20 > >Proud NRA member > — > Dr. Nuketopia > Sorry, no e-Mail. > Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

Response:

>  First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder >containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of >soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to >continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. >US market apparently doesn’t care. >  Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.?

I had to use lead free solder when I re-did my plumbing… man what a pain!! You have to get the pipes so hot you burn the studs they run into!! I almost set the bathroom on fire heating up the shower manifold! I don’t know what lead-free electronic solder is, but the plumbing stuff requires 800 degrees to melt!! I won’t use it… I’m stock-piling regular solder…

Response:

>Lead is serious shit.  Children in particular should not be around it.  For those >of us who don’t do much, so what?  Plumbing code here changed  in the early 90s. >The lead free solders take lots more heat, so much the code on copper went >heavier.  I’m a chicken shit in amps, and will stick to lead in there.  If  I >worked every day or in production with the stuff I would expect my employer or self >to take precautions. >I know a logger, who in the days of leaded gas got pretty sick, yellow eyes and >all. turns out it was lead from the saws.  I would not be so quick to hit the >’greens’ on this one.

The problem isn’t the amount of lead in your environment, it’s the amount in your body. They stuff used in gas tetra ethyl lead (some such thing) was absorbed quickly and thoroughly. Very poisonous stuff. Soldering is not a big deal. Wash your hands – don’t light cigarettes with the soldering iron – don’t use your iron as an immersion heater to warm your coffee – don’t hold the solder in your mouth while holding parts together over the iron (any more than you have to) and you’ll be okay. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It sucks. > There are certain pastes and formulations containing antimony and bismuth that > are supposed to be "compatible" with existing build processes. > Why anyone would rather have antimony and bismuth instead of lead is beyond me. > "Green" politics run amok, along with some protectionist motivations from the > EU is all it really is. > Some companies in the process industry are looking at alternatives, like > conductive epoxies. The other reason is that inductance from solder blobs is > starting to become significant in the speeds some stuff runs at today. > >  First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder > >containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of > >soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to > >continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. > >US market apparently doesn’t care. > >  Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.? > >– > >de N2MPU Jack FN20 > >Proud NRA member > — > Dr. Nuketopia > Sorry, no e-Mail. > Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

Ron Delenda Carthago Est

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder >containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of >soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to >continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. >US market apparently doesn’t care. >  Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.? > I hope your company isn’t implying that Europeans eat their circuit > boards.  They’re not all French you know. > It can’t mean that lead-free solder does a GOOD job soldering if it’s > such a pain in the ass to solder with. > I’m using Kester because I don’t work for your company.  So far it’s > the best solder I’ve ever used.

  I use Kester at home for all my stuff (the kind with rosin core flux). Solders great. So I have to clean the connections with isopropyl alcohol after soldering – BFD! That water soluble shit we have to use at work (I’m in NJ) is a royal pain to solder right, if at all. Leaves all kinds of muck on the pc boards that doesn’t want to come off.   I once asked why we use the water-soluble stuff and was told that it was mandated by the state of NJ. I found that hard to believe. I wonder if other states are as picky. — de N2MPU Jack FN20 Proud NRA member You can learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.com/

Response:

> I don’t know what lead-free electronic solder is, but the plumbing > stuff requires 800 degrees to melt!!

  That kind of temperature would seriously damage the surface mount components we use. At least it’s not silver solder, which IIRC needs an even higher temp to solder. — de N2MPU Jack FN20 Proud NRA member You can learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.com/

Response:

> Hi, > Plumbers using for quite some time. > Must be OK, I guess. I did not hear them complaining.

A water tight pipe and a properly conductive electrical connection aren’t quite the same, though…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Lead is serious shit.  Children in particular should not be around it.  For those >of us who don’t do much, so what?  Plumbing code here changed  in the early 90s. >The lead free solders take lots more heat, so much the code on copper went >heavier.  I’m a chicken shit in amps, and will stick to lead in there.  If  I >worked every day or in production with the stuff I would expect my employer or self >to take precautions. >I know a logger, who in the days of leaded gas got pretty sick, yellow eyes and >all. turns out it was lead from the saws.  I would not be so quick to hit the >’greens’ on this one. >The problem isn’t the amount of lead in your environment, it’s the amount in >your body. They stuff used in gas tetra ethyl lead (some such thing) was >absorbed quickly and thoroughly. Very poisonous stuff. >Soldering is not a big deal. Wash your hands – don’t light cigarettes with the >soldering iron – don’t use your iron as an immersion heater to warm your coffee >- don’t hold the solder in your mouth while holding parts together over the iron >(any more than you have to) and you’ll be okay.

Oh great, now I’ll have to walk to the microwave with my coffee cup! Would that be a good way to clean your tip, or would caffeine just give you a dirty solder joint? Pete — You don’t have to go home, but you can’t stay here.

Response:

The antimony & tin (lead free) solder that plumbers use requires a hotter torch than the old lead/tin combo. I wouldn’t want to use it for electronic work unless they got the melting temp close to the same as lead. I suppose you could use a thinner gauge… epp

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > Plumbers using for quite some time. > Must be OK, I guess. I did not hear them complaining. > Tony >   First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder > containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of > soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to > continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. > US market apparently doesn’t care. >   Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.?

Response:

The thing is he was a 10 X 6 guy.  He used more chain saw gas in a week than I’d use in a year.  I  think most of what I have on hand is 90 / 10.    Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I know a logger, who in the days of leaded gas got pretty sick, yellow > eyes and > all. turns out it was lead from the saws.  I would not be so quick to hit > the > ‘greens’ on this one.    Chris > the amount of lead in solder is somewhat less to the amount of lead he was > exposed to > > It sucks. > > There are certain pastes and formulations containing antimony and > bismuth that > > are supposed to be "compatible" with existing build processes. > > Why anyone would rather have antimony and bismuth instead of lead is > beyond me. > > "Green" politics run amok, along with some protectionist motivations > from the > > EU is all it really is. > > Some companies in the process industry are looking at alternatives, like > > conductive epoxies. The other reason is that inductance from solder > blobs is > > starting to become significant in the speeds some stuff runs at today. > > >  First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder > > >containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of > > >soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to > > >continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free > solder. > > >US market apparently doesn’t care. > > >  Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, > etc.? > > >– > > >de N2MPU Jack FN20 > > >Proud NRA member > > — > > Dr. Nuketopia > > Sorry, no e-Mail. > > Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my > address.

Response:

Don’t put beans in your ears.  Yeah, those direct routs.    Peace Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Lead is serious shit.  Children in particular should not be around it.  For those >of us who don’t do much, so what?  Plumbing code here changed  in the early 90s. >The lead free solders take lots more heat, so much the code on copper went >heavier.  I’m a chicken shit in amps, and will stick to lead in there.  If  I >worked every day or in production with the stuff I would expect my employer or self >to take precautions. >I know a logger, who in the days of leaded gas got pretty sick, yellow eyes and >all. turns out it was lead from the saws.  I would not be so quick to hit the >’greens’ on this one. > The problem isn’t the amount of lead in your environment, it’s the amount in > your body. They stuff used in gas tetra ethyl lead (some such thing) was > absorbed quickly and thoroughly. Very poisonous stuff. > Soldering is not a big deal. Wash your hands – don’t light cigarettes with the > soldering iron – don’t use your iron as an immersion heater to warm your coffee > – don’t hold the solder in your mouth while holding parts together over the iron > (any more than you have to) and you’ll be okay. >> It sucks. >> There are certain pastes and formulations containing antimony and bismuth that >> are supposed to be "compatible" with existing build processes. >> Why anyone would rather have antimony and bismuth instead of lead is beyond me. >> "Green" politics run amok, along with some protectionist motivations from the >> EU is all it really is. >> Some companies in the process industry are looking at alternatives, like >> conductive epoxies. The other reason is that inductance from solder blobs is >> starting to become significant in the speeds some stuff runs at today. >> >  First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder >> >containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of >> >soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to >> >continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. >> >US market apparently doesn’t care. >> >  Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.? >> >– >> >de N2MPU Jack FN20 >> >Proud NRA member >> — >> Dr. Nuketopia >> Sorry, no e-Mail. >> Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address. > Ron > Delenda Carthago Est

Response:

Well, a jittery quick one.    Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Lead is serious shit.  Children in particular should not be around it.  For those >>of us who don’t do much, so what?  Plumbing code here changed  in the early 90s. >>The lead free solders take lots more heat, so much the code on copper went >>heavier.  I’m a chicken shit in amps, and will stick to lead in there.  If  I >>worked every day or in production with the stuff I would expect my employer or self >>to take precautions. >>I know a logger, who in the days of leaded gas got pretty sick, yellow eyes and >>all. turns out it was lead from the saws.  I would not be so quick to hit the >>’greens’ on this one. >The problem isn’t the amount of lead in your environment, it’s the amount in >your body. They stuff used in gas tetra ethyl lead (some such thing) was >absorbed quickly and thoroughly. Very poisonous stuff. >Soldering is not a big deal. Wash your hands – don’t light cigarettes with the >soldering iron – don’t use your iron as an immersion heater to warm your coffee >- don’t hold the solder in your mouth while holding parts together over the iron >(any more than you have to) and you’ll be okay. > Oh great, now I’ll have to walk to the microwave with my coffee cup! > Would that be a good way to clean your tip, or would caffeine just > give you a dirty solder joint? > Pete > — > You don’t have to go home, > but you can’t stay here.

Response:

Yup, lot’s of the new valves are not made to be disassembled, so the packing and seats are at risk. Silver is good, but ya got to lock it up!    Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder >containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of >soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to >continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. >US market apparently doesn’t care. >  Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.? > I had to use lead free solder when I re-did my plumbing… man what a > pain!! You have to get the pipes so hot you burn the studs they run > into!! I almost set the bathroom on fire heating up the shower > manifold! > I don’t know what lead-free electronic solder is, but the plumbing > stuff requires 800 degrees to melt!! > I won’t use it… I’m stock-piling regular solder…

Response:

Im just a bit sensitive on the lead issue, having seen first hand permanently damaged kids. NRA folks may be interested that the Brits went to lead free rounds for their indoor ranges, years ago.  I don’t think it’s a knee jerk thing, just prudent.    Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >   First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder > containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of > soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to > continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. > US market apparently doesn’t care. >   Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.? > — > de N2MPU Jack FN20 > Proud NRA member > You can learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.com/

Response:

>Im just a bit sensitive on the lead issue, having seen first hand >permanently damaged kids. >NRA folks may be interested that the Brits went to lead free rounds for >their indoor ranges, years ago.  I don’t think it’s a knee jerk thing, just >prudent.    Chris

Indoor ranges here are requiring fully jacketed ammo too. The important thing for an indoor range is ventilation. Yeah a bullet can put lead in the air, but that’s nothing compared to the crap produced by the primer. One of my favorite ammo’s was a result of indoor range development, the old Federal Nyclad in 38 spl +P was invented so cops and FBI could train indoors with something basically identical to the duty load. >   First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder > containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of > soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to > continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. > US market apparently doesn’t care. >   Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.? > — > de N2MPU Jack FN20 > Proud NRA member > You can learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.com/

Ron Delenda Carthago Est

Response:

>The problem isn’t the amount of lead in your environment, it’s the amount in >your body. They stuff used in gas tetra ethyl lead (some such thing) was >absorbed quickly and thoroughly. Very poisonous stuff.

It’s kind of funny. Seems like nobody remembers why they took the lead out of motor fuels. It had nothing to do with lead in the environment. (Unless you consider the inside of your catalytic convertor to be the environment). It was because it "poisoned" the catalytic convertors. -ray

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Hadn’t thought about the primer, ain’t it great thoe.  38 special is a comfey round.  I haven’t hit an indoor range in 30 years.      Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Im just a bit sensitive on the lead issue, having seen first hand >permanently damaged kids. >NRA folks may be interested that the Brits went to lead free rounds for >their indoor ranges, years ago.  I don’t think it’s a knee jerk thing, just >prudent.    Chris > Indoor ranges here are requiring fully jacketed ammo too. The important thing > for an indoor range is ventilation. Yeah a bullet can put lead in the air, but > that’s nothing compared to the crap produced by the primer. > One of my favorite ammo’s was a result of indoor range development, the old > Federal Nyclad in 38 spl +P was invented so cops and FBI could train indoors > with something basically identical to the duty load. >>   First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder >> containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of >> soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to >> continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. >> US market apparently doesn’t care. >>   Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.? >> — >> de N2MPU Jack FN20 >> Proud NRA member >> You can learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.com/ > Ron > Delenda Carthago Est

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I know there were studies that showed road side produce ( growing not vended) containing elevated lead levels.  That included fodder and, naturally milk.  I don’t think there was a singular reason, in fact the catalytic converter may have been pivotal, but no way the singular reason.  Chris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The problem isn’t the amount of lead in your environment, it’s the amount in >your body. They stuff used in gas tetra ethyl lead (some such thing) was >absorbed quickly and thoroughly. Very poisonous stuff. > It’s kind of funny. Seems like nobody remembers why they took the lead > out of motor fuels. It had nothing to do with lead in the environment. > (Unless you consider the inside of your catalytic convertor to be the > environment). It was because it "poisoned" the catalytic convertors. > -ray

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>>The problem isn’t the amount of lead in your environment, it’s the amount in >your body. They stuff used in gas tetra ethyl lead (some such thing) was >absorbed quickly and thoroughly. Very poisonous stuff. >It’s kind of funny. Seems like nobody remembers why they took the lead >out of motor fuels. It had nothing to do with lead in the environment. >(Unless you consider the inside of your catalytic convertor to be the >environment). It was because it "poisoned" the catalytic convertors. >-ray

How many more catalytic converters must die??  Why?  WHY??? Oh… the humanity!! Actually, I knew some hotrodders who were able to get their cars to pass the emissions tests even without the catalytic converters because they knew how to tune their cars properly.  But which testing station you were at sort of determined how much you could get away with. I’m pretty sure that the test station guys walk around with a mirror on a stick these days, so they can look under your car to make sure that it’s there.  But some guys just drained the beads anyhow.  My ‘84 Chevy has a monolithic converter though, which is a bit different. Pete — You don’t have to go home, but you can’t stay here.

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38 specials are no fun.  Neither are those 9mm peashooters.  357s are fun to shoot though, even the lighter rounds.  45acp is the most fun to shoot by a long shot though.  For me, there’s no point in shooting if I’m not having fun.  That’s one of the reasons I don’t bother with that rimfire shit anymore either. Pete – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hadn’t thought about the primer, ain’t it great thoe.  38 special is a comfey >round.  I haven’t hit an indoor range in 30 years.      Chris > >Im just a bit sensitive on the lead issue, having seen first hand > >permanently damaged kids. > >NRA folks may be interested that the Brits went to lead free rounds for > >their indoor ranges, years ago.  I don’t think it’s a knee jerk thing, just > >prudent.    Chris > Indoor ranges here are requiring fully jacketed ammo too. The important thing > for an indoor range is ventilation. Yeah a bullet can put lead in the air, but > that’s nothing compared to the crap produced by the primer. > One of my favorite ammo’s was a result of indoor range development, the old > Federal Nyclad in 38 spl +P was invented so cops and FBI could train indoors > with something basically identical to the duty load. > >>   First the company I work for uses water soluble flux and solder > >> containing the same. I think most of us here that do any amount of > >> soldering think that shit sucks. Now, we’re told that to be able to > >> continue to sell our product in Europe, we have to use lead-free solder. > >> US market apparently doesn’t care. > >>   Question is: anyone here know how well lead-free solder solders, etc.? > >> — > >> de N2MPU Jack FN20 > >> Proud NRA member > >> You can learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.com/ > Ron > Delenda Carthago Est

– You don’t have to go home, but you can’t stay here.

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Pete, Hell no you don’t. Just buy a couple more 100 watt irons , then cut a hole in your bench, and mount the irons tips in the center. Ensure that you use U-bolts to hold the irons, then place your mug in the center. It will keep your coffee hot. If you burn your face, you used the WRONG MUG. Hope this helps, Spike

<snippage> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Oh great, now I’ll have to walk to the microwave with my coffee cup!

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Question:

Congrats!  Stick with it, its worth it!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Man, am I the last smoking bass player on Earth? > Soon to be.  Started a class for quitting this morning > — > -rob >    O< "!" > /() >    ^^

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>> I hate the smoke smell too.  Haven’t found a solution, other than airing out > the gear.  That crap gets on everything. > When I come home from a gig, I have to shower before bed or my wife gets > pissed because the entire bed smells like smoke in the morning.  My clothes > hit the washing machine right as I walk in the door, because if I leave them > in a hamper, the entire room smells like smoke by morning.

I *always*  take a shower when I get home from a gig. I figure smoking goes hand in hand with drinking. I know a lot of people who don’t smoke unless they’re drinking. I figure a bar is an adult establishment that already derives its income from something that’s already bad for you. Where I live, pretty much any restaurant is smoke-free. There are plenty enough places for people to go if they don’t want to smell smoke. Hell, I wouldn’t be opposed to allowing people to imbibe other drugs in bars, but I’m weird that way. As nightfall does not come all at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight. And it is in such twilight that we all must be aware of change in the air – however slight – lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. — William O. Douglas

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> Man, am I the last smoking bass player on Earth?  

Soon to be.  Started a class for quitting this morning — -rob    O< "!" /()    ^^

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Ouch.  It just won’t be the same with those little chiclets sticking out of my strings, but I’m willing to consider it Good luck and good health, Rob. Kindest Wishes, B — Jerry’s dead.  Phish sucks.  Go home.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Man, am I the last smoking bass player on Earth? > Soon to be.  Started a class for quitting this morning > — > -rob >    O< "!" > /() >    ^^

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>> Man, am I the last smoking bass player on Earth? > Soon to be.  Started a class for quitting this morning

Woohoo!         -Zev

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> I hate the smoke smell too.  Haven’t found a solution, other than airing out > the gear.  That crap gets on everything. > When I come home from a gig, I have to shower before bed or my wife gets > pissed because the entire bed smells like smoke in the morning.  My clothes > hit the washing machine right as I walk in the door, because if I leave them > in a hamper, the entire room smells like smoke by morning.

Not to mention gets in your hair so it stinks like mad. Smoke is a problem with some gigs (dive bars) though I have to say that these days thanks to the anit-smoke nazis things are really a lot better than they used to be. Lots of bars have installed these smoke catchers that really work well at keeping the air from depositing vast amounts of smoke on your gear. As you note, washing cloth items (and yourself) works pretty well to clean smoke smell off. For amps and cabs that that have finishes that can take water, Dow scrubbing bubbles bathroom cleaner works wonders to srub all that brown smelly niotine off stuff. I even do that to my basses that have water-proof finishes, but usually you have to sort of take them apart for a good cleaning so it isn’t something you do all the time. Is a good treatment when you get a used bass that’s been through the bar scene. > If someone ever finds a solution, please let me know!

I guess move to California is it.  But while I hate smokey gear, as a former smoker, I really don’t go along with the Smoke Gestapo who try to treat smokers like criminals. Like I said, bars with decent electrostatic smoke filters really aren’t that bad and people who want to smoke can do so without driving the rest of us nuts. Benj — SPAM-Guard!  Remove .users (if present) to email me!

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> Yeah, California has basically banned smoking from all enclosed area’s. The > way I see it, if everyone is so against smoking establishments, open > non-smoking bars and clubs. <snip>

Yeah. I started working on my MBA in the fall, and am wanting very badly to get a chance to capture the non-smoking market. It’s wide-a$$ open here.

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Yeah, California has basically banned smoking from all enclosed area’s. The way I see it, if everyone is so against smoking establishments, open non-smoking bars and clubs. I know there are few places around the Portland, Oregon area that are non-smoking establishments. Solves the issue. You don’t want to hang at a smoking establishment, don’t go. It doesn’t take rocket science to figure out that if there’s a need and a way to make money off it, someone will do it. Wes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gig only in California! > From all the references to gigging in California I’m assuming they’ve > passed some form of ‘no smoking in public places’ law. > Which gives us all another option, lobby those who make the laws in our > respective states/countries to also pass such a law. > I’m expecting a no smoking in bars etc. law to be passed here in New > Zealand in the next couple of years and I’m looking forward to playing > in bars again.

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>The answer is to have some sort of device that keeps the air pressure in the >vicinity of the stage higher than the surrounding area.  Giant overhead fans >would probably work. >-Ryan

Brrrrrrrr! Edward G. ‘Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.’ –Henry Kissinger

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Thanks for all of the suggestions. I guess that maybe I was looking for some kind of "home remedy" inside stuff that might work, but the best thing seems to be just letting the stuff air out. As for choosing different venues to play, I have to say that I just love playing too damn much! Besides, I’m usually the guy standing outside on the breaks getting some air. There’s always hope, though. I’ve played most of the major jazz clubs in the country, and every one had a ‘no-smoking, no-talking’ policy during the sets. I guess it’s time to get back on the road. . . PT

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> Here’s a perennial question for all of my fellow low-enders: I’ve been > gigging now for, probably, about 10+ years and I still can’t seem to > find a solution to bringing home a smoky, smelly club in my > instrument, my cabinets, my gear, and my cases. How can I combat the > smoke? Sure, Febreeze helps, but there has to be a more effective way > than just covering up the smell. I heard a while back that someone put > orange rinds (?) in a pouch in their double bass bag to absorb the > odors of smoke–is this ‘urban legend’? I don’t know. I’d appreciate > any suggestions on how to keep my electric bass, my acoustic bass, or > any other gear (relatively) somke-free by night’s end. Thanks. . . > PT > http://www.paulthompson.us

Yes, orange oil works to a degree Activated charcoal?! Baking soda?!! Ozium (similar to Febreeze) Gig only in California!

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> Gig only in California!

From all the references to gigging in California I’m assuming they’ve passed some form of ‘no smoking in public places’ law. Which gives us all another option, lobby those who make the laws in our respective states/countries to also pass such a law. I’m expecting a no smoking in bars etc. law to be passed here in New Zealand in the next couple of years and I’m looking forward to playing in bars again.  

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Man, am I the last smoking bass player on Earth?  I keep one in the strings. Marlboro Menthol 100’s, mmmm, good.  Airing out and frequent cleaning/maintenance work.  Hadn’t thought of Fabreze or Ozium, but the latter works great in my car (Vanilla). Kindest Wishes, B — Jerry’s dead.  Phish sucks.  Go home.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gig only in California! > From all the references to gigging in California I’m assuming they’ve > passed some form of ‘no smoking in public places’ law. > Which gives us all another option, lobby those who make the laws in our > respective states/countries to also pass such a law. > I’m expecting a no smoking in bars etc. law to be passed here in New > Zealand in the next couple of years and I’m looking forward to playing > in bars again.

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I’ve never found a good solution to that problem either. The only thing that helps is airing out the gear for a couple days. I usually put mine in my garage and leave it there for a while. I also wipe down the cables once in awhile , ’cause it appears that the rubber REALLY holds the smell. As for the orange rinds in the case….I’ve never heard of it. I’ve never heard of alot of things , so that doesn’t make it a bad thing to do. My concern is with the amount of instruments I have , and the infrequency that some of them leave the house, I’d probably forget the orange peels in the case for a few months. Nobody wants a bass that smells like a bag of smoky old mouldy tangerines. Jay S

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here’s a perennial question for all of my fellow low-enders: I’ve been > gigging now for, probably, about 10+ years and I still can’t seem to > find a solution to bringing home a smoky, smelly club in my > instrument, my cabinets, my gear, and my cases. How can I combat the > smoke? Sure, Febreeze helps, but there has to be a more effective way > than just covering up the smell. I heard a while back that someone put > orange rinds (?) in a pouch in their double bass bag to absorb the > odors of smoke–is this ‘urban legend’? I don’t know. I’d appreciate > any suggestions on how to keep my electric bass, my acoustic bass, or > any other gear (relatively) somke-free by night’s end. Thanks. . . > PT > http://www.paulthompson.us

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Here’s a perennial question for all of my fellow low-enders: I’ve been gigging now for, probably, about 10+ years and I still can’t seem to find a solution to bringing home a smoky, smelly club in my instrument, my cabinets, my gear, and my cases. How can I combat the smoke? Sure, Febreeze helps, but there has to be a more effective way than just covering up the smell. I heard a while back that someone put orange rinds (?) in a pouch in their double bass bag to absorb the odors of smoke–is this ‘urban legend’? I don’t know. I’d appreciate any suggestions on how to keep my electric bass, my acoustic bass, or any other gear (relatively) somke-free by night’s end. Thanks. . . PT http://www.paulthompson.us

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I just air stuff out when I get home.  I take the covers off my carpeted cabs, leave the bass case completely open, pop the covers off my rack (this is only occasionally), then go to bed.  I have found that doing these small things is better than not doing them. When I am in the club, I put my cabinet covers completely away, so that they don’t get filled with smoke too. Edward G. ‘Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac.’ –Henry Kissinger

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We were playing a gig at the Scarlet & Grey Cafe on High St. in Columbus during OSU’s winter break.  That in itself eased the smoke problem as there were only about 10 people there.  Anyways, a guy from the opening band pulls out a pack of incense, sticks a stick in a beer bottle, and lights it.  He said that the smoke from the incense kept the smoke from cigarettes away from the stage.  Bullshit, I thought.  If anything, it just added a different scent, albeit a better one, to overall mix.  And it stayed lit for maybe 5 minutes. The answer is to have some sort of device that keeps the air pressure in the vicinity of the stage higher than the surrounding area.  Giant overhead fans would probably work. -Ryan www.bricktop.net

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here’s a perennial question for all of my fellow low-enders: I’ve been > gigging now for, probably, about 10+ years and I still can’t seem to > find a solution to bringing home a smoky, smelly club in my > instrument, my cabinets, my gear, and my cases. How can I combat the > smoke? Sure, Febreeze helps, but there has to be a more effective way > than just covering up the smell. I heard a while back that someone put > orange rinds (?) in a pouch in their double bass bag to absorb the > odors of smoke–is this ‘urban legend’? I don’t know. I’d appreciate > any suggestions on how to keep my electric bass, my acoustic bass, or > any other gear (relatively) somke-free by night’s end. Thanks. . . > PT > http://www.paulthompson.us

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> Nobody wants a bass that smells like a bag of smoky old mouldy tangerines.

Now there is a QOTW!

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Well as a smoker and currently a non-smoker I can tell you that the airborne residue from smoke is like a goo that collects on everything it touches.  I have seen what it does to a white t-shirt displayed on a wall.  It turns yellow in as little as a few days.  Anyway, that is what is collecting on your amps, clothes, and yourself when you play a smokey gig (not to mention what collects in your lungs).  As a non-smoker I become very sensitive to the smell of smoke and I can empathasize with you on how nasty it can be. As for getting rid of the smell you need to wipe down smooth surfaces with what ever oil disolving cleaner that is safe for the surface you are cleaning.  What you need to do is to clean off the tar that sticks to your stuff.  Fuzzy surfaces and things with tiny groves will be harder to clean and products such as Fbreeze can be useful.  Other than that you have to make a choice in the gigs you want to play. Todd

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here’s a perennial question for all of my fellow low-enders: I’ve been > gigging now for, probably, about 10+ years and I still can’t seem to > find a solution to bringing home a smoky, smelly club in my > instrument, my cabinets, my gear, and my cases. How can I combat the > smoke? Sure, Febreeze helps, but there has to be a more effective way > than just covering up the smell. I heard a while back that someone put > orange rinds (?) in a pouch in their double bass bag to absorb the > odors of smoke–is this ‘urban legend’? I don’t know. I’d appreciate > any suggestions on how to keep my electric bass, my acoustic bass, or > any other gear (relatively) somke-free by night’s end. Thanks. . . > PT > http://www.paulthompson.us

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I hate the smoke smell too.  Haven’t found a solution, other than airing out the gear.  That crap gets on everything. When I come home from a gig, I have to shower before bed or my wife gets pissed because the entire bed smells like smoke in the morning.  My clothes hit the washing machine right as I walk in the door, because if I leave them in a hamper, the entire room smells like smoke by morning. I used to haul my gear in a pickup with a tonneau cover, and if the weather was clear, I’d drive home with the cover off and that would air the smoke out of my cabs.  Everything else just takes time and fresh air. If someone ever finds a solution, please let me know!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here’s a perennial question for all of my fellow low-enders: I’ve been > gigging now for, probably, about 10+ years and I still can’t seem to > find a solution to bringing home a smoky, smelly club in my > instrument, my cabinets, my gear, and my cases. How can I combat the > smoke? Sure, Febreeze helps, but there has to be a more effective way > than just covering up the smell. I heard a while back that someone put > orange rinds (?) in a pouch in their double bass bag to absorb the > odors of smoke–is this ‘urban legend’? I don’t know. I’d appreciate > any suggestions on how to keep my electric bass, my acoustic bass, or > any other gear (relatively) somke-free by night’s end. Thanks. . . > PT > http://www.paulthompson.us

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> Here’s a perennial question for all of my fellow low-enders: I’ve been > gigging now for, probably, about 10+ years and I still can’t seem to > find a solution to bringing home a smoky, smelly club in my > instrument, my cabinets, my gear, and my cases. How can I combat the > smoke?

I air my cabs out in the garage overnight.  I left in my car once…crap that was a mistake!  Then I Febreze them, let em air out some more, then bring em in.  That’s about all you can do unless you wanna laminate your cabinets.  :-) If you wipe down your instrument after a gig, that’ll help there.   Other than that, it’s an unfortunate reality of the bar scene. Best Regards, —   /"  ASCII Ribbon Campaign                | Todd H   /                                       | http://www.toddh.net/    X   Promoting good netiquette            | http://triplethreatband.com/   /  http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/     | "4 lines suffice."

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> Here’s a perennial question for all of my fellow low-enders: I’ve been > gigging now for, probably, about 10+ years and I still can’t seem to > find a solution to bringing home a smoky, smelly club in my instrument, > my cabinets, my gear, and my cases. How can I combat the smoke? Sure, > Febreeze helps, but there has to be a more effective way than just > covering up the smell. I heard a while back that someone put orange > rinds (?) in a pouch in their double bass bag to absorb the odors of > smoke–is this ‘urban legend’? I don’t know. I’d appreciate any > suggestions on how to keep my electric bass, my acoustic bass, or any > other gear (relatively) somke-free by night’s end. Thanks. . .

You might want to re-think the gigs you play to something less smoky. Keep in mind that what’s getting in your gear is also getting in your lungs.  There comes to a comfort factor when you decide it’s just no fun playing in that environment, and then to a health factor where you decide playing in that environment is not healthy. I know musicians who are tired of playing in smoky clubs and they choose to only play gigs where they are comfortable playing. — Jay O’Connor http://www.r4h.org/r4hmusic

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I don’t know what the big deal is. I’m not a smoker, but I accept that smelling like smoke is just part of the gig. If you don’t like it, you could start playing country clubs, or move to California. — John Check out www.js3jazz.com to hear my tunes and get FREE bass lessons

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here’s a perennial question for all of my fellow low-enders: I’ve been > gigging now for, probably, about 10+ years and I still can’t seem to > find a solution to bringing home a smoky, smelly club in my > instrument, my cabinets, my gear, and my cases. How can I combat the > smoke? Sure, Febreeze helps, but there has to be a more effective way > than just covering up the smell. I heard a while back that someone put > orange rinds (?) in a pouch in their double bass bag to absorb the > odors of smoke–is this ‘urban legend’? I don’t know. I’d appreciate > any suggestions on how to keep my electric bass, my acoustic bass, or > any other gear (relatively) somke-free by night’s end. Thanks. . . > PT > http://www.paulthompson.us

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Question:

In the shower the other morning, it occurred to me I was throwing water at 40C down the plughole and drawing cold water at 5C to replace it. Sounds like time for a heat exchanger to get back say, 80% of the difference and pre-warm the incoming water. Has anyone done this before? Any pitfalls? — Iain Blackie

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>In the shower the other morning, it occurred to me I was throwing water >at 40C down the plughole and drawing cold water at 5C to replace it. >Sounds like time for a heat exchanger to get back say, 80% of the >difference and pre-warm the incoming water.

Good idea. I’ve been thinking of putting an 6"x8′ horizontal pressurized cold water thick-walled PVC pipe inside an 8"x10′ unpressurized thin-walled greywater pipe that drains to the sewer through a large bulkhead fitting. McMaster-Carr sells 10′ of 6" pipe for $56.61 and 6" caps for $9.75 each. The cold water might enter the 6" pipe via a reinforced garden hose, then flow into the water heater via the drain fitting. Who sells 8" DWV pipe? Nick

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->In the shower the other morning, it occurred to me I was throwing water >at 40C down the plughole and drawing cold water at 5C to replace it. >Sounds like time for a heat exchanger to get back say, 80% of the >difference and pre-warm the incoming water. >Good idea. I’ve been thinking of putting an 6"x8′ horizontal pressurized >cold water thick-walled PVC pipe inside an 8"x10′ unpressurized thin-walled >greywater pipe that drains to the sewer through a large bulkhead fitting. >McMaster-Carr sells 10′ of 6" pipe for $56.61 and 6" caps for $9.75 each. >The cold water might enter the 6" pipe via a reinforced garden hose, then >flow into the water heater via the drain fitting. Who sells 8" DWV pipe? >Nick

I had in mind a tank, rather than a pipe-in-pipe.  As the volume of outgoing water is the same as the incoming, at best you can only get 50% of the heat back – the 40C drops to 22.5C and the 5C rises to 22.5C. The more surface area, the better the efficiency. The tank would take in the warm water at the top and drain it out at the bottom.  The incoming water would go through a coiled pipe starting at the bottom, up to the warmest water at the top. In the UK, I’m told the average family of 4 uses 4000 kWh of hot water, the scheme above should get 80% of 50% back – 40% overall. — Iain Blackie

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>I had in mind a tank, rather than a pipe-in-pipe.  As the volume of >outgoing water is the same as the incoming, at best you can only get 50% >of the heat back – the 40C drops to 22.5C and the 5C rises to 22.5C.

Not so if the system is counter current. >The more surface area, the better the efficiency.

True but the higher the capital cost. >The tank would take in the warm water at the top and drain it out at the >bottom.  The incoming water would go through a coiled pipe starting at >the bottom, up to the warmest water at the top.

I think it can be simpler than this because a volume of water running down a drain "sticks" to the sides, forming a thinnish layer. So Nick’s system could achieve sufficient heat exchange area in a simpler device. If I follow his idea, hot water runs down a central drain, the walls of this drain form the heat exchange surface with an up rising cold water supply in an outer concentric pipe. AJH

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>I think it can be simpler than this because a volume of water running >down a drain "sticks" to the sides, forming a thinnish layer. So >Nick’s system could achieve sufficient heat exchange area in a simpler >device. If I follow his idea, hot water runs down a central drain, the >walls of this drain form the heat exchange surface with an up rising >cold water supply in an outer concentric pipe.

Somebody makes this, with a cold water pipe coiled around a metal section of drain pipe.  It needs a long-ish section of vertical pipe, which makes it unsuitable for my house, but I remember we discussed this here a while back.  Check google’s archives… — ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

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>>…I’ve been thinking of putting an 6"x8′ horizontal pressurized cold >water thick-walled PVC pipe inside an 8"x10′ unpressurized thin-walled >greywater pipe that drains to the sewer through a large bulkhead fitting. >McMaster-Carr sells 10′ of 6" pipe for $56.61 and 6" caps for $9.75 each. >The cold water might enter the 6" pipe via a reinforced garden hose, then >flow into the water heater via the drain fitting. Who sells 8" DWV pipe? >I had in mind a tank, rather than a pipe-in-pipe.  As the volume of >outgoing water is the same as the incoming, at best you can only get 50% >of the heat back – the 40C drops to 22.5C and the 5C rises to 22.5C.

Not true, with a counterflow heat exchanger. >The tank would take in the warm water at the top and drain it out at the >bottom.  The incoming water would go through a coiled pipe starting at >the bottom, up to the warmest water at the top.

A coiled pipe has to be very large for 80% efficiency at, say, 2 gpm. Many basements have sewer outlets near the ceiling, so a greywater output near the floor probably needs a pump. A heat exchanger up in the rafters uses no floorspace and contributes more space heat upstairs, vs wasting heat to the basement. A tank (vs coil) within a tank can smooth out the daily hot water flow and do heat exchange and long-term tempering even with no flow, preheating a significant volume of cold water with basement air. >In the UK, I’m told the average family of 4 uses 4000 kWh of hot water, >the scheme above should get 80% of 50% back – 40% overall.

An average 1557 Btu/h, enough to heat 28 pounds of water per hour from 55 to 110 F. C = 28 Btu/h-F and A = Pi6/12×8 = 12.6 ft^2 and U = 4 make NTU = 12.6×4/28 = 1.8 and E = NTU/(NTU+1) = 0.64, ie 64% efficiency. An 8" inner pipe ($85+2 $25 endcaps) would raise NTU to 2.4 and E to 71%. A 19′ 4" pipe inside a 20′ 6" pipe would make NTU = 2.8 and E = 0.74. How would you improve this? Nick

Response:

> In the shower the other morning, it occurred to me I was throwing water > at 40C down the plughole and drawing cold water at 5C to replace it. > Sounds like time for a heat exchanger to get back say, 80% of the > difference and pre-warm the incoming water. > Has anyone done this before? Any pitfalls?

The shower water is cooled quite a bit through the air, depending on how fine the nozzle. Compare the temperature right out of the nozzle to water just before it hits the tub. Plus the tub must warm up before it stops absorbing heat. Plus the amount of pipe it must travel from the heat exchanger to hot water tank is a lot of mass to heat up in the little time it runs. You could insulate the cold water pipe, but that might only function to add more mass to heat up. The energy reclaimed could be minuscule. OTOH, if the cold water to the shower ran through the heat exchanger, it would be more efficient, but would require the user to adjust the shower more often. But metal drainage pipes don’t last that long. imho it’s a neat idea, but i don’t think it’s practical.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>In the shower the other morning, it occurred to me I was throwing water >>at 40C down the plughole and drawing cold water at 5C to replace it. >>Sounds like time for a heat exchanger to get back say, 80% of the >>difference and pre-warm the incoming water. >Good idea. I’ve been thinking of putting an 6"x8′ horizontal pressurized >cold water thick-walled PVC pipe inside an 8"x10′ unpressurized thin-walled >greywater pipe that drains to the sewer through a large bulkhead fitting. >McMaster-Carr sells 10′ of 6" pipe for $56.61 and 6" caps for $9.75 each. >The cold water might enter the 6" pipe via a reinforced garden hose, then >flow into the water heater via the drain fitting. Who sells 8" DWV pipe? >Nick > I had in mind a tank, rather than a pipe-in-pipe.  As the volume of > outgoing water is the same as the incoming, at best you can only get 50% > of the heat back – the 40C drops to 22.5C and the 5C rises to 22.5C. > The more surface area, the better the efficiency. > The tank would take in the warm water at the top and drain it out at the > bottom.  The incoming water would go through a coiled pipe starting at > the bottom, up to the warmest water at the top. > In the UK, I’m told the average family of 4 uses 4000 kWh of hot water, > the scheme above should get 80% of 50% back – 40% overall.

A counterflow heat exchanger would be able to recover more than 50% of the waste energy.  The tank is really unnecessary since you only create shower drain water when you need hot water anyway. I would think the biggest issue would be piping this up in a practical manner.  In many homes getting to the shower drains and piping that water somewhere it can be run through a heat exchanger might not be all that easy. I am also fairly sure that a homebrew arrangement as suggested by Nick would be seriously frowned on by the building inspectors.  AFAIK, there are requirements that generally you may not mix waste and potable water in the same container.  To do this in a "legel" fashion may well requirement some kind of intermediate heat exchange fluid.

Response:

In our country you can buy this equipment. Look at http://www.nemegeer.com/html/body_requperatie.html The text is in Dutch, but you can understand the pictures. Best regards, Zwerius Kriegsman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>In the shower the other morning, it occurred to me I was throwing water > >>at 40C down the plughole and drawing cold water at 5C to replace it. > >>Sounds like time for a heat exchanger to get back say, 80% of the > >>difference and pre-warm the incoming water. > >Good idea. I’ve been thinking of putting an 6"x8′ horizontal pressurized > >cold water thick-walled PVC pipe inside an 8"x10′ unpressurized thin-walled > >greywater pipe that drains to the sewer through a large bulkhead fitting. > >McMaster-Carr sells 10′ of 6" pipe for $56.61 and 6" caps for $9.75 each. > >The cold water might enter the 6" pipe via a reinforced garden hose, then > >flow into the water heater via the drain fitting. Who sells 8" DWV pipe? > >Nick > I had in mind a tank, rather than a pipe-in-pipe.  As the volume of > outgoing water is the same as the incoming, at best you can only get 50% > of the heat back – the 40C drops to 22.5C and the 5C rises to 22.5C. > The more surface area, the better the efficiency. > The tank would take in the warm water at the top and drain it out at the > bottom.  The incoming water would go through a coiled pipe starting at > the bottom, up to the warmest water at the top. > In the UK, I’m told the average family of 4 uses 4000 kWh of hot water, > the scheme above should get 80% of 50% back – 40% overall. > A counterflow heat exchanger would be able to recover more than 50% of > the waste energy.  The tank is really unnecessary since you only > create shower drain water when you need hot water anyway. > I would think the biggest issue would be piping this up in a practical > manner.  In many homes getting to the shower drains and piping that > water somewhere it can be run through a heat exchanger might not be > all that easy. > I am also fairly sure that a homebrew arrangement as suggested by Nick > would be seriously frowned on by the building inspectors.  AFAIK, > there are requirements that generally you may not mix waste and > potable water in the same container.  To do this in a "legel" fashion > may well requirement some kind of intermediate heat exchange fluid.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In the shower the other morning, it occurred to me I was throwing water > at 40C down the plughole and drawing cold water at 5C to replace it. > Sounds like time for a heat exchanger to get back say, 80% of the > difference and pre-warm the incoming water. > Has anyone done this before? Any pitfalls? > The shower water is cooled quite a bit through the air, depending on how > fine the nozzle. Compare the temperature right out of the nozzle to > water just before it hits the tub. > Plus the tub must warm up before it stops absorbing heat. Plus the > amount of pipe it must travel from the heat exchanger to hot water tank > is a lot of mass to heat up in the little time it runs. You could > insulate the cold water pipe, but that might only function to add more > mass to heat up. The energy reclaimed could be minuscule. > OTOH, if the cold water to the shower ran through the heat exchanger, it > would be more efficient, but would require the user to adjust the shower > more often. > But metal drainage pipes don’t last that long. > imho it’s a neat idea, but I don’t think it’s practical.

It is. Not that long ago I read about someone sells a commercial unit to do just this. You could do something similar using PVC and copper pipe. In just a few minutes I designed one that should work fine and shouldn’t cost more than $50 and take a couple of hours to make. The major problems are making it in such a way you can take it apart to clean and keeping it from leaking where the copper enters and exits.

Response:

> In the shower the other morning, it occurred to me I was throwing water > at 40C down the plughole and drawing cold water at 5C to replace it. > Sounds like time for a heat exchanger to get back say, 80% of the > difference and pre-warm the incoming water. > Has anyone done this before? Any pitfalls?

A high-school student in New Zealand has designed and built one. http://nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?thesection=news&thesubsection=… It would be easier if your shower was upstairs, so you could just gravity-feed the waste water through. You could heat the cold water on the intake side of your hot water system. — Geoff

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>…I’ve been thinking of putting an 6"x8′ horizontal pressurized cold >>water thick-walled PVC pipe inside an 8"x10′ unpressurized thin-walled >>greywater pipe that drains to the sewer through a large bulkhead fitting. >>McMaster-Carr sells 10′ of 6" pipe for $56.61 and 6" caps for $9.75 each. >>The cold water might enter the 6" pipe via a reinforced garden hose, then >>flow into the water heater via the drain fitting. Who sells 8" DWV pipe? >I had in mind a tank, rather than a pipe-in-pipe.  As the volume of >outgoing water is the same as the incoming, at best you can only get 50% >of the heat back – the 40C drops to 22.5C and the 5C rises to 22.5C. >Not true, with a counterflow heat exchanger. >The tank would take in the warm water at the top and drain it out at the >bottom.  The incoming water would go through a coiled pipe starting at >the bottom, up to the warmest water at the top. >A coiled pipe has to be very large for 80% efficiency at, say, 2 gpm. >Many basements have sewer outlets near the ceiling, so a greywater output >near the floor probably needs a pump. A heat exchanger up in the rafters >uses no floorspace and contributes more space heat upstairs, vs wasting >heat to the basement. A tank (vs coil) within a tank can smooth out the >daily hot water flow and do heat exchange and long-term tempering even with >no flow, preheating a significant volume of cold water with basement air. >In the UK, I’m told the average family of 4 uses 4000 kWh of hot water, >the scheme above should get 80% of 50% back – 40% overall. >An average 1557 Btu/h, enough to heat 28 pounds of water per hour from >55 to 110 F. C = 28 Btu/h-F and A = Pi6/12×8 = 12.6 ft^2 and U = 4 make >NTU = 12.6×4/28 = 1.8 and E = NTU/(NTU+1) = 0.64, ie 64% efficiency. An >8" inner pipe ($85+2 $25 endcaps) would raise NTU to 2.4 and E to 71%. >A 19′ 4" pipe inside a 20′ 6" pipe would make NTU = 2.8 and E = 0.74. >How would you improve this?

Hmmm, not sure I follow your units system?!   But I think your reasoning may be flawed – If there were an unlimited flow of the warm water, you COULD get the incoming cold up to that same temperature, with a very large exchanger.  With a smaller one, the efficiency WOULD be greater than 50% The difficulty is that outgoing volume matches the incoming exactly, so I’m pretty sure you can’t do better than 50%. – see my other post in the same thread. I wanted to dump a whole showerful in the tank to extract the maximum from it.  If I understand your arrangement correctly, much of your warm water will leave the end of the 20 foot (6.096m) pipe still with heat to give. Iain >Nick

– Iain Blackie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>In the shower the other morning, it occurred to me I was throwing water > >>at 40C down the plughole and drawing cold water at 5C to replace it. > >>Sounds like time for a heat exchanger to get back say, 80% of the > >>difference and pre-warm the incoming water. > >Good idea. I’ve been thinking of putting an 6"x8′ horizontal pressurized > >cold water thick-walled PVC pipe inside an 8"x10′ unpressurized thin-walled > >greywater pipe that drains to the sewer through a large bulkhead fitting. > >McMaster-Carr sells 10′ of 6" pipe for $56.61 and 6" caps for $9.75 each. > >The cold water might enter the 6" pipe via a reinforced garden hose, then > >flow into the water heater via the drain fitting. Who sells 8" DWV pipe? > >Nick > I had in mind a tank, rather than a pipe-in-pipe.  As the volume of > outgoing water is the same as the incoming, at best you can only get 50% > of the heat back – the 40C drops to 22.5C and the 5C rises to 22.5C. > The more surface area, the better the efficiency. > The tank would take in the warm water at the top and drain it out at the > bottom.  The incoming water would go through a coiled pipe starting at > the bottom, up to the warmest water at the top. > In the UK, I’m told the average family of 4 uses 4000 kWh of hot water, > the scheme above should get 80% of 50% back – 40% overall. >A counterflow heat exchanger would be able to recover more than 50% of >the waste energy.  The tank is really unnecessary since you only >create shower drain water when you need hot water anyway. >I would think the biggest issue would be piping this up in a practical >manner.  In many homes getting to the shower drains and piping that >water somewhere it can be run through a heat exchanger might not be >all that easy. >I am also fairly sure that a homebrew arrangement as suggested by Nick >would be seriously frowned on by the building inspectors.  AFAIK, >there are requirements that generally you may not mix waste and >potable water in the same container.  To do this in a "legel" fashion >may well requirement some kind of intermediate heat exchange fluid.

You have a point, though it would be grey water only.  If the incoming pipe entered and left the exchanger complete with no internal fittings, it would be OK with me.  Also the pressure in the cold would be greater than the outgoing warm, so it would leak outward. — Iain Blackie

Response:

>>I had in mind a tank, rather than a pipe-in-pipe.  As the volume of >outgoing water is the same as the incoming, at best you can only get 50% >of the heat back – the 40C drops to 22.5C and the 5C rises to 22.5C. >Not so if the system is counter current.

Now that I think about it, you’re right. The temperature rise would be greater with a counterflow, but I’m not sure the efficiency improves.   I’ve lost my notes on heat exchangers so, from first principles on a very large exchanger with very conductive walls: Parallel flow: dT at input is 40-5=35C dT at output is 17.5-17.5=0C so average dT is 35-0/2=17.5C Counter Flow: dT at input 40-22.5 = 17.5 dT at output 40-22.5 = 17.5 average dT is 17.5, same as in the parallel case. All other things being equal, only the delta T causes heat transfer. As they are the same in both cases, the efficiency is the same. I accept the higher the temperature is more useful,If I could slow the rate of the incoming cold water, I would get a lesser quantity of warmer water,  but I cannot control the flowrate of the incoming water – it must be the same as the outgoing, hence the 50% efficiency. It seems I have intuitively made a counterflow without thinking it through – see original description below. >The more surface area, the better the efficiency. >True but the higher the capital cost.

True indeed – as always its cost vs benefit. >The tank would take in the warm water at the top and drain it out at the >bottom.  The incoming water would go through a coiled pipe starting at >the bottom, up to the warmest water at the top. >I think it can be simpler than this because a volume of water running >down a drain "sticks" to the sides, forming a thinnish layer. So >Nick’s system could achieve sufficient heat exchange area in a simpler >device. If I follow his idea, hot water runs down a central drain, the >walls of this drain form the heat exchange surface with an up rising >cold water supply in an outer concentric pipe. >AJH

– Iain Blackie

Response:

>>A 19′ 4" pipe inside a 20′ 6" pipe would make NTU = 2.8 and E = 0.74. >The difficulty is that outgoing volume matches the incoming exactly, so >I’m pretty sure you can’t do better than 50%.

NTU = AU/Cmin, the heat transfer area times the conductance divided by the heat capacity flow rate. With lots of surface (A) we can make NTU arbitrarily large. With the same incoming outgoing flow rates (Z = 1), the efficiency E = NTU/(NTU+1)… >If I understand your arrangement correctly, much of your warm water >will leave the end of the 20 foot (6.096m) pipe still with heat to give.

With infinite pipe, the incoming and outgoing water temps would be equal, but that’s beyond most budgets, and it’s hard to fit in a basement. Nick

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > In the shower the other morning, it occurred to me I was throwing water > > at 40C down the plughole and drawing cold water at 5C to replace it. > > Sounds like time for a heat exchanger to get back say, 80% of the > > difference and pre-warm the incoming water. > > Has anyone done this before? Any pitfalls? > The shower water is cooled quite a bit through the air, depending on how > fine the nozzle. Compare the temperature right out of the nozzle to > water just before it hits the tub. > Plus the tub must warm up before it stops absorbing heat. Plus the > amount of pipe it must travel from the heat exchanger to hot water tank > is a lot of mass to heat up in the little time it runs. You could > insulate the cold water pipe, but that might only function to add more > mass to heat up. The energy reclaimed could be minuscule. > OTOH, if the cold water to the shower ran through the heat exchanger, it > would be more efficient, but would require the user to adjust the shower > more often. > But metal drainage pipes don’t last that long. > imho it’s a neat idea, but I don’t think it’s practical. >It is. Not that long ago I read about someone sells a commercial unit to do >just this. You could do something similar using PVC and copper pipe. >In just a few minutes I designed one that should work fine and shouldn’t >cost more than $50 and take a couple of hours to make. The major problems >are making it in such a way you can take it apart to clean and keeping it >from leaking where the copper enters and exits.

Hear Hear! "Impossible" is not a Scottish word. I had in mind a plastic or Fibreglass tank, (old water drum?) warm entry at the top and warm exit from the bottom with a U-bend such that the final exit is a bit below the top of the tank – the tank is then at atmospheric pressure. In the UK water is supplied in 25mm plastic pipe <nearly one inch for our American Cousins  : )>.   The cold pipe would enter and leave from the top, being one complete coil inside – no fittings to leak. A hatch on the top with a gasket and self – tapping screws completes the job 50 – 100 pounds or dollars sounds about right to me.  It would payback in less than a year. — Iain Blackie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’ve lost my notes on heat exchangers so, from first principles on a > very large exchanger with very conductive walls: > Parallel flow: > dT at input is 40-5=35C > dT at output is 17.5-17.5=0C > so average dT is 35-0/2=17.5C > Counter Flow: > dT at input 40-22.5 = 17.5 > dT at output 40-22.5 = 17.5

Nope.  dT at warm inlet is 40 – <cold outlet> and <cold outlet> is 5 + Q/F. Q is function of surface area and heat transfer coefficient and delta T.  So this problem sometimes gets kind of messy. > All other things being equal, only the delta T causes heat transfer. As > they are the same in both cases, the efficiency is the same.

Sorry, Iain, you miss your notes more than you realize.  In a large enough heat-exchanger, the delta t across the tube from warm water to cold water at each point approaches zero.  In a counter-flow heat exchanger with infinite surface area, the 5 degree cold water coming in would be 40 going out, and the 40 degree warm water going in would be 5 degree going out. If a parallel and counter HX’s both have the same surface area, the counter flow one has a larger *average* delta T as the fluid’s flow.  In a parallel one, the delta T at the inlet is maximum, but it drops continously through the hx.  Counter flow has less delta T at any given point than the parallel’s inlet, but it remains almost constant (if Cp for two fluids are matched) throughout the length. Of course infinite surface area heat exchangers are a bit bulky and hard to install .  But counter flow hx’s that achieve 80% or better are eminently practical to build in commercial applications. The commercially available one that I have installed in my house is from www.endlessshower.com .  This is the unit that we’ve discussed before on this and other NG.  I think it is the same design as the Dutch site you mentioned in another post.  That web site has a link to a DOE (US Dept. Of Energy) report about the design. Mine has the whole house waste pipe going through it (it’s a straight pipe so there is no obstruction to catch/collect ‘waste’).  And I pipe the cold water supply feeding both my shower and HW heater through the potable side. The various sizes do require some amount of vertical drop in the waste line, but it is important to not have the waste pipe completely flooded since that reduces effectiveness. I’ve been monitoring mine every quarter since I installed it, and the effectiveness has dropped from a high of 63% when first installed to 54% last month (guess it’s time to inject some ‘cleaner’ to remove the scum It uses two pipes, one for waste and one for supply so it meets most building codes about avoiding mixing waste & potable.  It uses the film-effect on the waste pipe to improve the film coefficient. As far as recovery, my home has PVC waste pipes and I’ve found the following.  With 2.9 GPM flow and shower (in second floor bathroom) at 110 degrees F, I get 107 degrees F in the basement at the HX inlet after about 3 minutes.  So there is some temperature drop, but not too bad.  With 39 degree supply water temperature going in, I get 76 degree supply water leaving the unit (last month’s numbers).  The drain outlet is cooled to 70 deg F. I’ve noticed that since I installed it, I don’t run out of HW even when taking a long ‘Hollywood’ shower.  And, the faucet temperature control is more towards the ‘C’ than the ‘H’ than what it used to be. daestrom

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve lost my notes on heat exchangers so, from first principles on a > very large exchanger with very conductive walls: > Parallel flow: > dT at input is 40-5=35C > dT at output is 17.5-17.5=0C > so average dT is 35-0/2=17.5C > Counter Flow: > dT at input 40-22.5 = 17.5 > dT at output 40-22.5 = 17.5 > Nope.  dT at warm inlet is 40 – <cold outlet> and <cold outlet> is 5 + Q/F. > Q is function of surface area and heat transfer coefficient and delta T. So > this problem sometimes gets kind of messy. > All other things being equal, only the delta T causes heat transfer. As > they are the same in both cases, the efficiency is the same. > Sorry, Iain, you miss your notes more than you realize.  In a large enough > heat-exchanger, the delta t across the tube from warm water to cold water at > each point approaches zero.  In a counter-flow heat exchanger with infinite > surface area, the 5 degree cold water coming in would be 40 going out, and > the 40 degree warm water going in would be 5 degree going out. > If a parallel and counter HX’s both have the same surface area, the counter > flow one has a larger *average* delta T as the fluid’s flow.  In a parallel > one, the delta T at the inlet is maximum, but it drops continously through > the hx.  Counter flow has less delta T at any given point than the > parallel’s inlet, but it remains almost constant (if Cp for two fluids are > matched) throughout the length. > Of course infinite surface area heat exchangers are a bit bulky and hard to > install .  But counter flow hx’s that achieve 80% or better are eminently > practical to build in commercial applications. > The commercially available one that I have installed in my house is from > www.endlessshower.com .  This is the unit that we’ve discussed before on > this and other NG.  I think it is the same design as the Dutch site you > mentioned in another post.  That web site has a link to a DOE (US Dept. Of > Energy) report about the design. > Mine has the whole house waste pipe going through it (it’s a straight pipe > so there is no obstruction to catch/collect ‘waste’).  And I pipe the cold > water supply feeding both my shower and HW heater through the potable side. > The various sizes do require some amount of vertical drop in the waste line, > but it is important to not have the waste pipe completely flooded since that > reduces effectiveness. > I’ve been monitoring mine every quarter since I installed it, and the > effectiveness has dropped from a high of 63% when first installed to 54% > last month (guess it’s time to inject some ‘cleaner’ to remove the scum

Have you calculated the payback time of the capital cost of installation? In domestic homes these things are rarely worth it.  Commercial system tend to perform better in economy.

Response:

>Have you calculated the payback time of the capital cost of installation? >In domestic homes these things are rarely worth it…

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? Nick

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve lost my notes on heat exchangers so, from first principles on a > very large exchanger with very conductive walls: > Parallel flow: > dT at input is 40-5=35C > dT at output is 17.5-17.5=0C > so average dT is 35-0/2=17.5C > Counter Flow: > dT at input 40-22.5 = 17.5 > dT at output 40-22.5 = 17.5 >Nope.  dT at warm inlet is 40 – <cold outlet> and <cold outlet> is 5 + Q/F. >Q is function of surface area and heat transfer coefficient and delta T.  So >this problem sometimes gets kind of messy. > All other things being equal, only the delta T causes heat transfer. As > they are the same in both cases, the efficiency is the same. >Sorry, Iain, you miss your notes more than you realize.  In a large enough >heat-exchanger, the delta t across the tube from warm water to cold water at >each point approaches zero.  In a counter-flow heat exchanger with infinite >surface area, the 5 degree cold water coming in would be 40 going out, and >the 40 degree warm water going in would be 5 degree going out.

Ah, yes – it makes sense now. Thanks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->If a parallel and counter HX’s both have the same surface area, the counter >flow one has a larger *average* delta T as the fluid’s flow.  In a parallel >one, the delta T at the inlet is maximum, but it drops continously through >the hx.  Counter flow has less delta T at any given point than the >parallel’s inlet, but it remains almost constant (if Cp for two fluids are >matched) throughout the length. >Of course infinite surface area heat exchangers are a bit bulky and hard to >install .  But counter flow hx’s that achieve 80% or better are eminently >practical to build in commercial applications. >The commercially available one that I have installed in my house is from >www.endlessshower.com .  This is the unit that we’ve discussed before on >this and other NG.  I think it is the same design as the Dutch site you >mentioned in another post.  That web site has a link to a DOE (US Dept. Of >Energy) report about the design. >Mine has the whole house waste pipe going through it (it’s a straight pipe >so there is no obstruction to catch/collect ‘waste’).  And I pipe the cold >water supply feeding both my shower and HW heater through the potable side. >The various sizes do require some amount of vertical drop in the waste line, >but it is important to not have the waste pipe completely flooded since that >reduces effectiveness. >I’ve been monitoring mine every quarter since I installed it, and the >effectiveness has dropped from a high of 63% when first installed to 54% >last month (guess it’s time to inject some ‘cleaner’ to remove the scum >It uses two pipes, one for waste and one for supply so it meets most >building codes about avoiding mixing waste & potable.  It uses the >film-effect on the waste pipe to improve the film coefficient. >As far as recovery, my home has PVC waste pipes and I’ve found the >following.  With 2.9 GPM flow and shower (in second floor bathroom) at 110 >degrees F, I get 107 degrees F in the basement at the HX inlet after about 3 >minutes.  So there is some temperature drop, but not too bad.  With 39 >degree supply water temperature going in, I get 76 degree supply water >leaving the unit (last month’s numbers).  The drain outlet is cooled to 70 >deg F. >I’ve noticed that since I installed it, I don’t run out of HW even when >taking a long ‘Hollywood’ shower.  And, the faucet temperature control is >more towards the ‘C’ than the ‘H’ than what it used to be. >daestrom

– Iain Blackie

Response:

Try here. This is the one that was discussed here a few months ago. http://www.endlessshower.com/welcome.htm Hope this helps, Gordon Richmond

Response:

Actually, a single common PVC pipe inside the greywater drain pipe will only raise the temp on the fresh water a few percent at best, even if the pipe run were very long.  PVC pipe isn’t a good heat transfer medium, its actually an insulator. A true heat exchanger would consist of an assembly of many thin channeled stainless steel baffle plates, one channel being pressurized greywater, the next neighboring channel if supply water, the next grey water, and so on. The number of baffle plates depends on the maximum volume of heated fluid, and the corresponding volume of fluid to heat.  One of the names of this type of device is "Chill Water Press Heat Exchanger." The most common form of plate heat exchangers to be found is in the local modern dairy farm, where the fresh hot milk is pumped through a heat exchanger to cool it on the way to the raw milk storage tank.  I worked as a Pasteurizer in a large dairy and packaging plant in the USA in the 1970’s. The extracted milk left the milking machines around 103 degrees F., and exited the heat exchanger at around 38 degrees F.  The chilled water entering the exchange side of the plates entered at 34 degrees F, and exited back to a cooling tower around 115 degrees F.  Part of the increase was due to high efficiency of the device, as well as high pump pressure and friction. There are several commercial uses of heat exchangers, and several variation on the construction, but none manufactured for spent home waste water (which is not all hot water).  Capturing the hot water heater exhaust flue heat would be a more constant heat source, and more cost effective. I believe that a series of small metering vanes (that operate much like a common mechanical water meter) could be setup to generate a small amount of power ever time greywater passes out of a house or business.  This would be universal, not dependant on the temperature of the water, and easily inverted into household current or battery storage. Hope this was helpful. RG >In the shower the other morning, it occurred to me I was throwing water >at 40C down the plughole and drawing cold water at 5C to replace it. >Sounds like time for a heat exchanger to get back say, 80% of the >difference and pre-warm the incoming water.

Good idea. I’ve been thinking of putting an 6"x8′ horizontal pressurized cold water thick-walled PVC pipe inside an 8"x10′ unpressurized thin-walled greywater pipe that drains to the sewer through a large bulkhead fitting. McMaster-Carr sells 10′ of 6" pipe for $56.61 and 6" caps for $9.75 each. The cold water might enter the 6" pipe via a reinforced garden hose, then flow into the water heater via the drain fitting. Who sells 8" DWV pipe? Nick

Response:

>Actually, a single common PVC pipe inside the greywater drain pipe will only >raise the temp on the fresh water a few percent at best, even if the pipe >run were very long.  PVC pipe isn’t a good heat transfer medium, its >actually an insulator.

As I recall, it’s about R1 per inch, ie 4 Btu/h-F-ft^2 for a 1/4" pipe wall, so a sufficiently long horizontal common PVC pipe inside a larger pipe full of greywater will make a dandy heat exchanger, approaching 100% efficiency as the owner’s wallet grows thinner. >A true heat exchanger would consist of an assembly of many thin channeled >stainless steel baffle plates…

Ah, a True Heat Exchanger… >The number of baffle plates depends on the maximum volume of heated fluid,

One might imagine it depends on the flow rate. >There are several commercial uses of heat exchangers, and several variation >on the construction, but none manufactured for spent home waste water (which >is not all hot water).

Can you say "GFX"? >Capturing the hot water heater exhaust flue heat would be a more >constant heat source, and more cost effective.

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? How is "capturing" a heat source? Why would we need to heat hot water? >I believe that a series of small metering vanes (that operate much like a >common mechanical water meter) could be setup to generate a small amount of >power ever time greywater passes out of a house or business.  This would be >universal, not dependant on the temperature of the water, and easily >inverted into household current or battery storage.

This is just fine in concept, but falls apart with a few numbers, like microhydro using rainwater from a roof. >Hope this was helpful.

Not at all. Now go away. Nick

Response:

> I believe that a series of small metering vanes (that operate much like a > common mechanical water meter) could be setup to generate a small amount of > power ever time greywater passes out of a house or business.  This would be > universal, not dependant on the temperature of the water, and easily > inverted into household current or battery storage.

Just out of curiousity, how much potential energy do you think is contained in unpressurized waste water?  Figure an average drop of 10 feet to the sewer. A hint – it ain’t much.

Response:

>Have you calculated the payback time of the capital cost of installation? >In domestic homes these things are rarely worth it… > Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?

Just from people who have costed it and rejected it.  No firm figures to hand, that is why I asked.

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Question:

Hey I’m here anytime.

Response:

> I am sorry you had to go through this situation but as you say it has > provided you with some good laughs and stories to tell for years to come, > and like you said there was very little permanent damage. It sure provided > me with some entertaining reading just visualizing all of this. Thank > goodness you have been able to put it into proper perspective and keep a > smile. > Better luck with your new tenant. > thanks dw..

i am visualizing vivek(aka "rajah") with ibd…if he spends 2-3 hours a day in the shower itself…andhe sleeps about 9 or more…and he is in school about 2-3 and in the library another 6(or so he said..)..and spends another 4 hours a day asking various people how to make rice, tea, boil water and oh yes..how COULD i forget..this "engineering student????" couldnt open the deadbolt on our front door…he would pound loudly when we were there..i stopped opening it for him.. finally alan did too he doesnt know how to use a key..anyway..give him an hour or so to open a door.. we have gone beyond 24 hours a day..when would he have time for the big D i wonder if people like vivek GET the big D or any crohns or uc.. if its stress related as some folks are mentioning…well he was in a constant state of stress(over how much sugar to PUT in his tea)..if its food related..he lived on..whatever he could scrounge from others…we treated him to pizza ..he LOVED it but refused to walk(10 mins) to the place to get his own..he basically ate rice and veggies…and i dont know what after he cleaned our our freezer and cupboard(that was WITH my permission..i was trying to be NICE grrrrrrrrrrrrrr) maybe vivek never uses the bathroom except to clog up the toilet and create a mess..maybe he has the secret..maybe from all of this i can make the sorts of inferences sometimes people make and decide i NOW HAVE THE CURE FOR CROHNS AND UC 1)2-3 hour showers daily.. 2)pounding on doors and not unlocking them yourself 3) never using deodorant..(he smelled as bad after his shower as before..worse perhaps) 4)drinking tea and eating rice after someone else has either made it for you or told you (for the 21st time) how to do it 5)throwing towels around 6) bothering the neighbors 7)being a total pain… now 1..2…3…can we all try these 7 steps to a cure? we could(assuming it works..and heck ..why not…nothing else seems to )..call it "the vivek way to a healthier lifestyle" so glad to be of help on here..i expect a nomination for the nobel prize any minute now..and a special award from the Indian Government for giving credit to one of their own.. love ya all..yeah…am in a bout and the darvon is talking…annie

Response:

Jeffy – Fortunately, I’m not on oxycontin.  Doctors here in FL really hate to prescribe it cause we’ve had so many problems with crime related to it. I would like to hear your withdrawal story though. Christine UC Class of 01 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> …until you have to get off them… > sorry to hear about thy toes.  i did mine like that, not once, but twice. > so sore. > yes, narcotics will definitly firm you up, but are soooooo hard to get > off….omg.  i will tell you my horror story if you really want to know what > it is like coming down off oxycontin….omg…..let me know. > jeffy > Thanks to all you guys!  Well, it seems that 2 toes are broken; the 2 > middle > toes, and the baby toe and the 2nd toe are both sore too and swollen, as > is > the whole foot.  On the bright side, my favourite colour is purple, and > now > 2 toes and part of my foot are purple  They match my sweater-LOL! > Well, as you said, bad things happen in threes, so my luck should turn > around now (knock knock).  At least the pain meds stopped the D. > Narcotics > are a wonderful thing > Christine UC Class of 01 > Ouch!  I know what broken toes feel like Christine – a horse stepped on my > little toe and the next one in last year.  It seemed like they would never > heal!  I hope your New Year gets better > Hugs,  Linda > > ……so please pass the cheese! > > Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse > yesterday, > > but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra > meds > > and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. > > Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my > foot > > into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 > toe > > and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don’t do anything for broken toes, so > > I’ll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I’d wear > > shoes this wouldn’t happen > > Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher > and > > started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there’s a leak in the disposal or > > somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! > > Christine UC Class of 01 > > — > > Christine Ellis > > Treasure Coast Wildlife Hospital > > http://www.tcwh.org

Response:

Oh Annie – What a nightmare!!! It’s worse than I thought!  What a relief to have him finally gone; and hopefully the locks changed! So sorry the 6MP made you that sick again; but bet the stress aggravated it. Feel better and I’ll email you tomorrow! Luv, Christine UC Class of 01

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ……so please pass the cheese! > Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse yesterday, > but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra meds > and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. > Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my foot > into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 toe > and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don’t do anything for broken toes, so > I’ll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I’d wear > shoes this wouldn’t happen > Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher and > started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there’s a leak in the disposal or > somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! > Christine UC Class of 01 > (((((((christine)))))))tell u what i will do > i will send you our ex tenant…he is a young man from india who was > raised with servants…he takes 2-3 hour showers,..(so when u can get > in the bathroom u will really deeply appreciate it)…if he overflows > the toilet(which he does) he will push the sh[t down with the toilet > brush(not a plunger) only if after he asks u from three thousand miles > away to call a plumber and u tell him he will pay) then he will take > the sh-t covered bathroom mats..and wipe up the floor with your good > towels..(not using any disinfectant..) and dump the whole mess in your > downstairs next to the downstairs bedroom..to soak up a month or so > for YOU to wash..(makes u appreciate the washing machine which he said > was broken..it wasnt...the circuit protector had gone off...he is an > engineering student(ms degree) but he couldnt figure that one out > then he will criticize you because "americans have short fences to > their yards..not high ones as WE do"..then he will criticize > everything american about  america..then you will find out he lied to > get his student visa...then you will find that in spite of the 3 hours > showers he smells bad..then he will assume that if he stays part of a > month he doesnt hvae to pay rent cos he paid last month's rent and you > just adore having him there..he will argue the utility bills with you > (that he ran up) and he will NOT leave when asked... > his mother will phone you at midnight demanding to talk to him with no > hello nor apology for waking you up...he will take a phone card you > gave him to call you for emergencies and "lose " it..(yeah right) and > he will ask every member of your family and all the neighbors at least > 10 times each the following > how does one make tea > how does one make rice > how does one boil water > then he will call you with a 30 day notice that HE wants to leave but > then he will refuse to write it til you stand over him...then he will > try to break it.. > so when u finally see his ass out the door at 615 am and you have 16 > loads of sh-t filled wash to do and a stinking room to clean up and a > filthy house.. > your D, your pain your broken toes and all the other things will still > be there.. > but he wont..and the relief will be GREAT > (yeah i am NOT exaggerating a word of this)..myself? also in a bad > bout..no broken toes but i actually puked yesterday from the 6mp...and > that hasnt happened in months...pain is bad...back pain is bad..joint > pains are horrific > D is there....and i am 3thousand miles from my home, my city and my > doctor > but the jerk we had renting is GONE > and my relief knows no bounds..i finally found something worse than > ibd > "vivek" > love you..miss you christine...laugh and get better.. > annie

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> I am sorry you had to go through this situation but as you say it has > provided you with some good laughs and stories to tell for years to come, > and like you said there was very little permanent damage. It sure provided > me with some entertaining reading just visualizing all of this. Thank > goodness you have been able to put it into proper perspective and keep a > smile. > Better luck with your new tenant. > thanks dw.. > i am visualizing vivek(aka "rajah") with ibd...if he spends 2-3 hours > a day in the shower itself...andhe sleeps about 9 or more...and he is > in school about 2-3 and in the library another 6(or so he said..)..and > spends another 4 hours a day asking various people how to make rice, > tea, boil water and oh yes..how COULD i forget..this "engineering > student????" couldnt open the deadbolt on our front door...he would > pound loudly when we were there..i stopped opening it for him.. > finally alan did too > he doesnt know how to use a key..anyway..give him an hour or so to > open a door.. > we have gone beyond 24 hours a day..when would he have time for the > big D > i wonder if people like vivek GET the big D or any crohns or uc.. > if its stress related as some folks are mentioning...well he was in a > constant state of stress(over how much sugar to PUT in his tea)..if > its food related..he lived on..whatever he could scrounge from > others...we treated him to pizza ..he LOVED it but refused to walk(10 > mins) to the place to get his own..he basically ate rice and > veggies...and i dont know what after he cleaned our our freezer and > cupboard(that was WITH my permission..i was trying to be NICE > grrrrrrrrrrrrrr) > maybe vivek never uses the bathroom except to clog up the toilet and > create a mess..maybe he has the secret..maybe from all of this i can > make the sorts of inferences sometimes people make and decide i NOW > HAVE THE CURE FOR CROHNS AND UC > 1)2-3 hour showers daily.. > 2)pounding on doors and not unlocking them yourself > 3) never using deodorant..(he smelled as bad after his shower as > before..worse perhaps) > 4)drinking tea and eating rice after someone else has either made it > for you or told you (for the 21st time) how to do it > 5)throwing towels around > 6) bothering the neighbors > 7)being a total pain... > now 1..2...3...can we all try these 7 steps to a cure? > we could(assuming it works..and heck ..why not...nothing else seems to > )..call it "the vivek way to a healthier lifestyle" > so glad to be of help on here..i expect a nomination for the nobel > prize any minute now..and a special award from the Indian Government > for giving credit to one of their own.. > love ya all..yeah...am in a bout and the darvon is talking...annie

Well I will nominate you for the Nobel Prize for humor anyway. By chance did you tell him how to flush the toilet? Maybe that is why he was having the problems with it, no one showed him how to flush on a daily basis. Take care Annie

Response:

I am sorry you had to go through this situation but as you say it has provided you with some good laughs and stories to tell for years to come, and like you said there was very little permanent damage. It sure provided me with some entertaining reading just visualizing all of this. Thank goodness you have been able to put it into proper perspective and keep a smile. Better luck with your new tenant.

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> ......so please pass the cheese! > Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse yesterday, > but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra meds > and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. > Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my foot > into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 toe > and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don't do anything for broken toes, so > I'll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I'd wear > shoes this wouldn't happen > Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher and > started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there's a leak in the disposal or > somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! > Christine UC Class of 01 > (((((((christine)))))))tell u what i will do > i will send you our ex tenant...he is a young man from india who was > raised with servants...he takes 2-3 hour showers,..(so when u can get > in the bathroom u will really deeply appreciate it)...if he overflows > the toilet(which he does) he will push the sh[t down with the toilet > brush(not a plunger) only if after he asks u from three thousand miles > away to call a plumber and u tell him he will pay) then he will take > the sh-t covered bathroom mats..and wipe up the floor with your good > towels..(not using any disinfectant..) and dump the whole mess in your > downstairs next to the downstairs bedroom..to soak up a month or so > for YOU to wash..(makes u appreciate the washing machine which he said > was broken..it wasnt...the circuit protector had gone off...he is an > engineering student(ms degree) but he couldnt figure that one out > then he will criticize you because "americans have short fences to > their yards..not high ones as WE do"..then he will criticize > everything american about  america..then you will find out he lied to > get his student visa...then you will find that in spite of the 3 hours > showers he smells bad..then he will assume that if he stays part of a > month he doesnt hvae to pay rent cos he paid last month's rent and you > just adore having him there..he will argue the utility bills with you > (that he ran up) and he will NOT leave when asked... > his mother will phone you at midnight demanding to talk to him with no > hello nor apology for waking you up...he will take a phone card you > gave him to call you for emergencies and "lose " it..(yeah right) and > he will ask every member of your family and all the neighbors at least > 10 times each the following > how does one make tea > how does one make rice > how does one boil water > then he will call you with a 30 day notice that HE wants to leave but > then he will refuse to write it til you stand over him...then he will > try to break it.. > so when u finally see his ass out the door at 615 am and you have 16 > loads of sh-t filled wash to do and a stinking room to clean up and a > filthy house.. > your D, your pain your broken toes and all the other things will still > be there.. > but he wont..and the relief will be GREAT > (yeah i am NOT exaggerating a word of this)..myself? also in a bad > bout..no broken toes but i actually puked yesterday from the 6mp...and > that hasnt happened in months...pain is bad...back pain is bad..joint > pains are horrific > D is there....and i am 3thousand miles from my home, my city and my > doctor > but the jerk we had renting is GONE > and my relief knows no bounds..i finally found something worse than > ibd > "vivek" > love you..miss you christine...laugh and get better.. > annie

Response:

> > (((((((christine)))))))tell u what i will do > i will send you our ex tenant... > OMG!!  Your darling ex tenant actually makes my 14 yr old son[1] > sound *civilised*! > [1] An apparent ‘allergy’ to soap, toothpaste, toothbrushes, face > flannels, acne control washing, anti-perspirant, clean clothes… > ugh!  Isn’t it a good job that I love him!

fran my son didnt go thru that stage..he was very clean…showered all the time..brushed teeth and used mouthwash too…all the time..so i wouldnt smell the booze and pot…so dont feel bad..if he aint coverin’ it up ..there aint nothin to cover.. i love my son too..loved him thru all his teen years and stuff…and love him now thru his early 20’s and MORE stuff.. (like the cars…howmany young people have 2 major car accidents both involving being hit by animals or avoiding hitting animals…in 3 months?) but i think if he had been driving more slowly the second one wouldnt have happened..luckily he wasnt hurt..neither were the deer and rabbit or whatever and how many people have an almost genuine redneck for a son…here is a kid who was born and raised in boston.. and he says"y’all.."…owns a couple of guns…and well…at least he isnt vivek.. annie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Annie, I can really sympathise with you. I have been renting out houses and apartments for almost 20 years. I currently > own 2 high-rise condominiums and my house, which I live on the main floor and rent out the basement and second floor. I > have rented to people from every continent (except Australia). The ones I have had the most problems with are the ones > born right here in Canada. I have gone to court 4 times to collect rent or damages caused by tenants. I’ve garnisheed > wages and bank accounts to recover funds owed to me. I now hire a company to manage my two condos (they are 2 hours > drive away) and I am much more careful who I rent my apartments to in my house. I do a full credit and court check on > them first. I have not gone to court for rental problems in more than 5 years. I would rather leave an apartment empty > then rent it to the wrong person. > — > Paul > Visit our photo albums at http://www.laflammefamily.ca > To reply, replace "deadspam.com" with "laflammefamily.ca" > — > paul

well i can see why you would do all that..we did a check on him..we had all of 2 days to rent…we were given almost NO notice..and we have 2 cats that need to be fed daily..and mail to take in…anyway…we called the university he was attebnding and they said that "all our engineering students are topnotch" or something like that…and he had a student visa…proper passport and travelers checks..we did get a security deposit from him..and he only got some of it back cos he owed for part of the month rent and a LOT for utilities… anyway…we checked on our new guy by calling the school where he works…his father also checked on US by lookingover the lease before he would sign it..but if his parents are watching out for him i feel better…besides he is more local..from california but living and working in the boston area.. if we ever had to do this again we would do even more checking as u suggested..but they gave us actually 3 weeks to do the entire move..one week was already gone with a vacation we had already paid for..we basically needed someone in the house to feed the cats…and just be in the house he didnt damage anything permanently at least..but u would expect a graduate student to be somewhat better than just anyone who walked in off the street.. and he had a ton of money..he had been living in a hotel for 125 a night lol but thanks for the advice..i think the next guy will be fine.. besides…this has given me a LOT of laughs… annie

Response:

Sounds like someone who deserved a big boot in you know where as he was leaving.  ;)   Maybe when you get a good person who cares about other peoples property you will feel better too.  Love and miss you.  UM MOM Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ……so please pass the cheese! > Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse yesterday, > but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra meds > and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. > Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my foot > into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 toe > and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don’t do anything for broken toes, so > I’ll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I’d wear > shoes this wouldn’t happen > Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher and > started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there’s a leak in the disposal or > somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! > Christine UC Class of 01 > (((((((christine)))))))tell u what i will do > i will send you our ex tenant…he is a young man from india who was > raised with servants…he takes 2-3 hour showers,..(so when u can get > in the bathroom u will really deeply appreciate it)…if he overflows > the toilet(which he does) he will push the sh[t down with the toilet > brush(not a plunger) only if after he asks u from three thousand miles > away to call a plumber and u tell him he will pay) then he will take > the sh-t covered bathroom mats..and wipe up the floor with your good > towels..(not using any disinfectant..) and dump the whole mess in your > downstairs next to the downstairs bedroom..to soak up a month or so > for YOU to wash..(makes u appreciate the washing machine which he said > was broken..it wasnt...the circuit protector had gone off...he is an > engineering student(ms degree) but he couldnt figure that one out > then he will criticize you because "americans have short fences to > their yards..not high ones as WE do"..then he will criticize > everything american about  america..then you will find out he lied to > get his student visa...then you will find that in spite of the 3 hours > showers he smells bad..then he will assume that if he stays part of a > month he doesnt hvae to pay rent cos he paid last month's rent and you > just adore having him there..he will argue the utility bills with you > (that he ran up) and he will NOT leave when asked... > his mother will phone you at midnight demanding to talk to him with no > hello nor apology for waking you up...he will take a phone card you > gave him to call you for emergencies and "lose " it..(yeah right) and > he will ask every member of your family and all the neighbors at least > 10 times each the following > how does one make tea > how does one make rice > how does one boil water > then he will call you with a 30 day notice that HE wants to leave but > then he will refuse to write it til you stand over him...then he will > try to break it.. > so when u finally see his ass out the door at 615 am and you have 16 > loads of sh-t filled wash to do and a stinking room to clean up and a > filthy house.. > your D, your pain your broken toes and all the other things will still > be there.. > but he wont..and the relief will be GREAT > (yeah i am NOT exaggerating a word of this)..myself? also in a bad > bout..no broken toes but i actually puked yesterday from the 6mp...and > that hasnt happened in months...pain is bad...back pain is bad..joint > pains are horrific > D is there....and i am 3thousand miles from my home, my city and my > doctor > but the jerk we had renting is GONE > and my relief knows no bounds..i finally found something worse than > ibd > "vivek" > love you..miss you christine...laugh and get better.. > annie

Response:

> (((((((christine)))))))tell u what i will do > i will send you our ex tenant...

OMG!!  Your darling ex tenant actually makes my 14 yr old son[1] sound *civilised*! [1] An apparent ‘allergy’ to soap, toothpaste, toothbrushes, face flannels, acne control washing, anti-perspirant, clean clothes… ugh!  Isn’t it a good job that I love him! —          With best wishes               for a happy, healthy and peaceful new year       to all my Usenet friends.

Response:

> omg Annie!   I’m sorry you had all these problems with your ex tenant.  But, > you sure mad me laugh!  <G>  Thanks for that. > I sure hope you start feeling better soon. > {{{{{{Annie}}}}}} > — > Take Care, > Sherry  :o) > (To reply remove nospam from addie.) >- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

sherry. well i hope i made lotsa people not feeling well laugh…for laughs here we do our ‘vivek" imitations..<g> i am so so..had a bad night..am having a quiet day..but at least i am not getting long distance phone calls from boston with a plaintive, whiney voice on the other end asking "and exactly how does the tea bag work? and exactly how much milk does one put in the tea? and exactly how much sugar does one put in the tea?* thats after he learned how to boil the water and MAKE the darned tea i felt like answering "and exactly how does one evict a total idiot like yourself and exactly how does one prove that you must be a student under false pretenses and exactly how does one send you back to india? they say every cloud has a silver lining and every bad thing has something good about it and when God closes a door He opens a window well vivek’s silver lining is that he is out of our house and provides life long laughs his good is that he is out of our house and provides life long laughs and i wish God had opened the window and thrown vivek out long ago <g> Yes people reading this..he really was this bad…people didnt believe us..til they met him…i wish you could all have the privilege of him as your house guest(i supposed u could call h im a "tenant" since he paid some sort of rent..didnt make up for the hassle tho"..)or something for one week..you would appreciate whatever u dont appreciate now..especially the use of your bathroom.. and you would have enough vivek stories to laugh your way through many colonoscopies….he’s better than pain killers annie

Response:

omg Annie!   I’m sorry you had all these problems with your ex tenant.  But, you sure mad me laugh!  <G>  Thanks for that. I sure hope you start feeling better soon. {{{{{{Annie}}}}}} — Take Care, Sherry  :o) (To reply remove nospam from addie.)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> (((((((christine)))))))tell u what i will do > i will send you our ex tenant…he is a young man from india who was > raised with servants…he takes 2-3 hour showers,..(so when u can get > in the bathroom u will really deeply appreciate it)…if he overflows > the toilet(which he does) he will push the sh[t down with the toilet > brush(not a plunger) only if after he asks u from three thousand miles > away to call a plumber and u tell him he will pay) then he will take > the sh-t covered bathroom mats..and wipe up the floor with your good > towels..(not using any disinfectant..) and dump the whole mess in your > downstairs next to the downstairs bedroom..to soak up a month or so > for YOU to wash..(makes u appreciate the washing machine which he said > was broken..it wasnt…the circuit protector had gone off…he is an > engineering student(ms degree) but he couldnt figure that one out > then he will criticize you because "americans have short fences to > their yards..not high ones as WE do"..then he will criticize > everything american about  america..then you will find out he lied to > get his student visa…then you will find that in spite of the 3 hours > showers he smells bad..then he will assume that if he stays part of a > month he doesnt hvae to pay rent cos he paid last month’s rent and you > just adore having him there..he will argue the utility bills with you > (that he ran up) and he will NOT leave when asked… > his mother will phone you at midnight demanding to talk to him with no > hello nor apology for waking you up…he will take a phone card you > gave him to call you for emergencies and "lose " it..(yeah right) and > he will ask every member of your family and all the neighbors at least > 10 times each the following > how does one make tea > how does one make rice > how does one boil water > then he will call you with a 30 day notice that HE wants to leave but > then he will refuse to write it til you stand over him…then he will > try to break it.. > so when u finally see his ass out the door at 615 am and you have 16 > loads of sh-t filled wash to do and a stinking room to clean up and a > filthy house.. > your D, your pain your broken toes and all the other things will still > be there.. > but he wont..and the relief will be GREAT > (yeah i am NOT exaggerating a word of this)..myself? also in a bad > bout..no broken toes but i actually puked yesterday from the 6mp…and > that hasnt happened in months…pain is bad…back pain is bad..joint > pains are horrific > D is there….and i am 3thousand miles from my home, my city and my > doctor > but the jerk we had renting is GONE > and my relief knows no bounds..i finally found something worse than > ibd > "vivek" > love you..miss you christine…laugh and get better.. > annie

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Response:

Annie, I can really sympathise with you. I have been renting out houses and apartments for almost 20 years. I currently own 2 high-rise condominiums and my house, which I live on the main floor and rent out the basement and second floor. I have rented to people from every continent (except Australia). The ones I have had the most problems with are the ones born right here in Canada. I have gone to court 4 times to collect rent or damages caused by tenants. I’ve garnisheed wages and bank accounts to recover funds owed to me. I now hire a company to manage my two condos (they are 2 hours drive away) and I am much more careful who I rent my apartments to in my house. I do a full credit and court check on them first. I have not gone to court for rental problems in more than 5 years. I would rather leave an apartment empty then rent it to the wrong person. — Paul Visit our photo albums at http://www.laflammefamily.ca To reply, replace "deadspam.com" with "laflammefamily.ca" — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > (((((((christine)))))))tell u what i will do > i will send you our ex tenant…he is a young man from india who was > raised with servants…he takes 2-3 hour showers,..(so when u can get > in the bathroom u will really deeply appreciate it)…if he overflows > the toilet(which he does) he will push the sh[t down with the toilet > brush(not a plunger) only if after he asks u from three thousand miles > away to call a plumber and u tell him he will pay) then he will take > the sh-t covered bathroom mats..and wipe up the floor with your good > towels..(not using any disinfectant..) and dump the whole mess in your > downstairs next to the downstairs bedroom..to soak up a month or so > for YOU to wash..(makes u appreciate the washing machine which he said > was broken..it wasnt…the circuit protector had gone off…he is an > engineering student(ms degree) but he couldnt figure that one out > then he will criticize you because "americans have short fences to > their yards..not high ones as WE do"..then he will criticize > everything american about  america..then you will find out he lied to > get his student visa…then you will find that in spite of the 3 hours > showers he smells bad..then he will assume that if he stays part of a > month he doesnt hvae to pay rent cos he paid last month’s rent and you > just adore having him there..he will argue the utility bills with you > (that he ran up) and he will NOT leave when asked… > his mother will phone you at midnight demanding to talk to him with no > hello nor apology for waking you up…he will take a phone card you > gave him to call you for emergencies and "lose " it..(yeah right) and > he will ask every member of your family and all the neighbors at least > 10 times each the following > how does one make tea > how does one make rice > how does one boil water > then he will call you with a 30 day notice that HE wants to leave but > then he will refuse to write it til you stand over him…then he will > try to break it.. > so when u finally see his ass out the door at 615 am and you have 16 > loads of sh-t filled wash to do and a stinking room to clean up and a > filthy house.. > your D, your pain your broken toes and all the other things will still > be there.. > but he wont..and the relief will be GREAT > (yeah i am NOT exaggerating a word of this)..myself? also in a bad > bout..no broken toes but i actually puked yesterday from the 6mp…and > that hasnt happened in months…pain is bad…back pain is bad..joint > pains are horrific > D is there….and i am 3thousand miles from my home, my city and my > doctor > but the jerk we had renting is GONE > and my relief knows no bounds..i finally found something worse than > ibd > "vivek" > love you..miss you christine…laugh and get better.. > annie

Response:

…until you have to get off them… sorry to hear about thy toes.  i did mine like that, not once, but twice. so sore. yes, narcotics will definitly firm you up, but are soooooo hard to get off….omg.  i will tell you my horror story if you really want to know what it is like coming down off oxycontin….omg…..let me know. jeffy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks to all you guys!  Well, it seems that 2 toes are broken; the 2 middle > toes, and the baby toe and the 2nd toe are both sore too and swollen, as is > the whole foot.  On the bright side, my favourite colour is purple, and now > 2 toes and part of my foot are purple  They match my sweater-LOL! > Well, as you said, bad things happen in threes, so my luck should turn > around now (knock knock).  At least the pain meds stopped the D. Narcotics > are a wonderful thing > Christine UC Class of 01 > Ouch!  I know what broken toes feel like Christine – a horse stepped on my > little toe and the next one in last year.  It seemed like they would never > heal!  I hope your New Year gets better > Hugs,  Linda > ……so please pass the cheese! > Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse > yesterday, > but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra meds > and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. > Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my > foot > into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 > toe > and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don’t do anything for broken toes, so > I’ll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I’d wear > shoes this wouldn’t happen > Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher > and > started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there’s a leak in the disposal or > somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! > Christine UC Class of 01 > — > Christine Ellis > Treasure Coast Wildlife Hospital > http://www.tcwh.org

Response:

Thanks to all you guys!  Well, it seems that 2 toes are broken; the 2 middle toes, and the baby toe and the 2nd toe are both sore too and swollen, as is the whole foot.  On the bright side, my favourite colour is purple, and now 2 toes and part of my foot are purple  They match my sweater-LOL! Well, as you said, bad things happen in threes, so my luck should turn around now (knock knock).  At least the pain meds stopped the D.  Narcotics are a wonderful thing Christine UC Class of 01

Ouch!  I know what broken toes feel like Christine – a horse stepped on my little toe and the next one in last year.  It seemed like they would never heal!  I hope your New Year gets better Hugs,  Linda

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ……so please pass the cheese! > Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse yesterday, > but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra meds > and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. > Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my foot > into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 toe > and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don’t do anything for broken toes, so > I’ll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I’d wear > shoes this wouldn’t happen > Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher and > started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there’s a leak in the disposal or > somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! > Christine UC Class of 01 > — > Christine Ellis > Treasure Coast Wildlife Hospital > http://www.tcwh.org

Response:

> ……so please pass the cheese! > Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse yesterday, > but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra meds > and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. > Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my foot > into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 toe > and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don’t do anything for broken toes, so > I’ll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I’d wear > shoes this wouldn’t happen > Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher and > started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there’s a leak in the disposal or > somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! > Christine UC Class of 01

(((((((christine)))))))tell u what i will do i will send you our ex tenant…he is a young man from india who was raised with servants…he takes 2-3 hour showers,..(so when u can get in the bathroom u will really deeply appreciate it)…if he overflows the toilet(which he does) he will push the sh[t down with the toilet brush(not a plunger) only if after he asks u from three thousand miles away to call a plumber and u tell him he will pay) then he will take the sh-t covered bathroom mats..and wipe up the floor with your good towels..(not using any disinfectant..) and dump the whole mess in your downstairs next to the downstairs bedroom..to soak up a month or so for YOU to wash..(makes u appreciate the washing machine which he said was broken..it wasnt…the circuit protector had gone off…he is an engineering student(ms degree) but he couldnt figure that one out then he will criticize you because "americans have short fences to their yards..not high ones as WE do"..then he will criticize everything american about  america..then you will find out he lied to get his student visa…then you will find that in spite of the 3 hours showers he smells bad..then he will assume that if he stays part of a month he doesnt hvae to pay rent cos he paid last month’s rent and you just adore having him there..he will argue the utility bills with you (that he ran up) and he will NOT leave when asked… his mother will phone you at midnight demanding to talk to him with no hello nor apology for waking you up…he will take a phone card you gave him to call you for emergencies and "lose " it..(yeah right) and he will ask every member of your family and all the neighbors at least 10 times each the following how does one make tea how does one make rice how does one boil water then he will call you with a 30 day notice that HE wants to leave but then he will refuse to write it til you stand over him…then he will try to break it.. so when u finally see his ass out the door at 615 am and you have 16 loads of sh-t filled wash to do and a stinking room to clean up and a filthy house.. your D, your pain your broken toes and all the other things will still be there.. but he wont..and the relief will be GREAT (yeah i am NOT exaggerating a word of this)..myself? also in a bad bout..no broken toes but i actually puked yesterday from the 6mp…and that hasnt happened in months…pain is bad…back pain is bad..joint pains are horrific D is there….and i am 3thousand miles from my home, my city and my doctor but the jerk we had renting is GONE and my relief knows no bounds..i finally found something worse than ibd "vivek" love you..miss you christine…laugh and get better.. annie

Response:

Ouch!  I know what broken toes feel like Christine – a horse stepped on my little toe and the next one in last year.  It seemed like they would never heal!  I hope your New Year gets better Hugs,  Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > ……so please pass the cheese! > Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse yesterday, > but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra meds > and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. > Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my foot > into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 toe > and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don’t do anything for broken toes, so > I’ll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I’d wear > shoes this wouldn’t happen > Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher and > started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there’s a leak in the disposal or > somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! > Christine UC Class of 01 > — > Christine Ellis > Treasure Coast Wildlife Hospital > http://www.tcwh.org

Response:

Christine,  I hope you feel better soon.  They always say bad luck comes in 3’s so your luck has to start getting better. — Take Care, Sherry  :o) (To reply remove nospam from addie.)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ……so please pass the cheese! > Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse yesterday, > but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra meds > and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. > Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my foot > into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 toe > and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don’t do anything for broken toes, so > I’ll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I’d wear > shoes this wouldn’t happen > Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher and > started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there’s a leak in the disposal or > somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! > Christine UC Class of 01 > — > Christine Ellis > Treasure Coast Wildlife Hospital > http://www.tcwh.org

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Response:

Here — I’m from the "dairy state" so I have about six different kinds of cheese in my frig — what kind would you like???? ((((((((((((((Christine)))))))))))))) Look at it this way, the rest of the year should be better! Rebecca

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ……so please pass the cheese! > Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse yesterday, > but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra meds > and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. > Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my foot > into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 toe > and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don’t do anything for broken toes, so > I’ll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I’d wear > shoes this wouldn’t happen > Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher and > started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there’s a leak in the disposal or > somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! > Christine UC Class of 01 > — > Christine Ellis > Treasure Coast Wildlife Hospital > http://www.tcwh.org

Response:

I am going to repeat what I said just a few minutes ago on the phone.  Tape the game tonight and watch it tomorrow!  :-)))))  Do as your husband said, get in bed and don’t leave it!  Chat with you during the game.  UM MOM Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ……so please pass the cheese! > Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse yesterday, > but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra meds > and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. > Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my foot > into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 toe > and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don’t do anything for broken toes, so > I’ll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I’d wear > shoes this wouldn’t happen > Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher and > started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there’s a leak in the disposal or > somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! > Christine UC Class of 01 > — > Christine Ellis > Treasure Coast Wildlife Hospital > http://www.tcwh.org

Response:

Geez, is it some sort of bad holiday karma?  Monday I was rushing around to get ready to see a movie (had time off work), washed my face, grabbed the toner, hey that stung.  Discovered I had grabbed the nail polish remover (they’re both pink!).  Ouch, rewashed and put on moisturizer TWICE just in case.  Went out to start my car and had to jump start the battery because I had left my dome light on all night! But at least no bones are broken.  LOL – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >……so please pass the cheese! >Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse yesterday, >but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra meds >and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. >Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my foot >into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 toe >and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don’t do anything for broken toes, so >I’ll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I’d wear >shoes this wouldn’t happen >Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher and >started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there’s a leak in the disposal or >somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! >Christine UC Class of 01 >– >Christine Ellis >Treasure Coast Wildlife Hospital >http://www.tcwh.org

Response:

Time for the steel toed slippers

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ……so please pass the cheese! > Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse yesterday, > but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra meds > and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. > Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my foot > into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 toe > and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don’t do anything for broken toes, so > I’ll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I’d wear > shoes this wouldn’t happen > Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher and > started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there’s a leak in the disposal or > somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! > Christine UC Class of 01 > — > Christine Ellis > Treasure Coast Wildlife Hospital > http://www.tcwh.org

Response:

oh my…i hope tomorrow brings you a better day!! jeffy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ……so please pass the cheese! > Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse yesterday, > but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra meds > and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. > Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my foot > into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 toe > and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don’t do anything for broken toes, so > I’ll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I’d wear > shoes this wouldn’t happen > Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher and > started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there’s a leak in the disposal or > somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! > Christine UC Class of 01 > — > Christine Ellis > Treasure Coast Wildlife Hospital > http://www.tcwh.org

Response:

Rebecca – Thanks!  I hope so!  Hmmmmmm….I like just about any kind of cheese – you pick BTW – Your puppy is beautiful!  Enjoy him – puppies are so much fun! Christine UC Class of 01

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here — I’m from the "dairy state" so I have about six different kinds of > cheese in my frig — what kind would you like???? > ((((((((((((((Christine)))))))))))))) > Look at it this way, the rest of the year should be better! > Rebecca > ……so please pass the cheese! > Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse > yesterday, > but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra meds > and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. > Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my > foot > into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 > toe > and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don’t do anything for broken toes, so > I’ll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I’d wear > shoes this wouldn’t happen > Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher > and > started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there’s a leak in the disposal or > somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! > Christine UC Class of 01 > — > Christine Ellis > Treasure Coast Wildlife Hospital > http://www.tcwh.org

Response:

……so please pass the cheese! Well, I started the new year by starting a flare which got worse yesterday, but is a bit better today.  Major D and cramps and gas etc. but extra meds and being very gentle to my tummy is helping. Earlier this afternoon, I was hurrying through the house and smashed my foot into the entertainment centre.  OOOOOUUUCHHHH!!! Well, broke at least 1 toe and maybe 2 or 3.  Of course, they don’t do anything for broken toes, so I’ll just let it/them heal.  Not the first time.  Of course, if I’d wear shoes this wouldn’t happen Then, I just went to rinse off the dishes and put them in the dishwasher and started a flood in the kitchen.  Seems there’s a leak in the disposal or somewhere.  AAAAARRRGGGGGHHHH!!! Christine UC Class of 01 — Christine Ellis Treasure Coast Wildlife Hospital http://www.tcwh.org

Response:

Question:

Thanks, Kathy!  I got a chair from some friends.  It was their mother’s.  I read the information the ortho gave me about the recuperation and it says to avoid chairs.  I’m not supposed to be upright for more than 20 minutes at a time.  I have to lie flat with my feet elevated.  I don’t want to get a lecture about how I shouldn’t be up moving around.  LOL  I just cannot use that darn walker with my hands and wrists the way they are.  My RD understands this stuff, but I’m not sure the foot/ankle surgeon will, so I decided to get the chair on my own.  Now, I have to hope that I can wheel it around on my carpeting.  UGH!  I may end up crawling on the floor!  LOL Carol – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When Dale broke both of his achilles I got him a wheelchair at a medical > supply place before I could get him in to see the Dr. they gave me the chair > and said to bring in the script. For 3 months the chair was paid totally by > ins. Get the script for the chair and don’t forget the request for handicap > parking if you don;t have one already. > Kathy > Your local red cross will probably get you a chair and all they ask is > that > you make a donation when you are finished. > Bruce > > I posted a couple of weeks ago about problems I’ve been having for a > > few months.  The ortho who I had been seeing had recommended surgery, > > but was unable to do the surgery because of health problems. > > Well, after having an MRI on Dec.2nd which the written report stated > > that nothing showed up and a mix up at the ortho’s office, I finally > > saw the orthosurgeon who I was referred to.  I thought some of you, > > who responded to my last post where I asked if synovial > > fluid/inflamation always showed up on an MRI, would be interested to > > know what I found out. > > The ortho laughed when he saw the written report.  After looking at > > the MRI films, he said that there is definite inflamation around the > > tendon.  In fact, there’s quite a bit.  He said that the radiologists > > who read these MRI’s do not know what they’re looking for and they > > tend to skim over the slides because there are so many of them. He > > also said that he has seen MRI’s that look great and when he’s gone in > > surgically, the tendon looks like "crabmeat"  (YUCK!).  (I hope I > > don’t remember that the next time I eat crab!)  LOL  He’s also seen > > MRI’s that look like there’s no tendon left and he’s surprised to see > > that things are not nearly that bad. > > I am scheduled for surgery on January 29th.  He will go in and clean > > up the inflamation, stitch up the tears in the posterior tibial tendon > > IF he is able to make the repairs.  If  the tendon is in too bad of > > shape, then he will do a tendon graft using a tendon on the other side > > of my foot (the one that works the small toes).  My tendon is still > > functioning, but is very weak.  He’s not sure what he will find when > > he goes in…it could go either way.  Plus, he said that he can’t > > guarantee that the inflamation won’t come right back, but I have to > > have the surgery or guaranteed I will end up with a flat foot with > > limited functioning. > > It will be 8 weeks recuperation….2 weeks totally nonweightbearing > > and then a boot for the next 6 weeks.  I can go back to work after a > > couple of weeks IF I can guarantee him that I will sit most of the day > > with my foot elevated.  If I cannot do that then he wants me off work > > for the entire 8 weeks.  He said that depending on how things go, if > > things are going well, he will leave it up to me as to how long I want > > to take off.  Well, I teach a roomful of first graders. Everyone has > > been telling me that I need to take the 8 weeks because there’s no way > > I will be able to stay off my feet and keep the foot elevated all day. > > I decided to think about it and then yesterday, one the kids stepped > > right on my bad foot.  Crunch!  OW!  I think I am going to take the 8 > > weeks.  I have 200 sick days built up, so I have the time. > > The biggest problems I’m going to have is not going stir crazy and how > > I’m going to get around during those first two weeks.  They gave me a > > walker to use, but my hands and wrists are weak, plus my other foot > > and ankle aren’t very good either.  Also, I live alone and will have > > some help for a few days, but after that I’m on my own.  So, I’ve > > decided to look into a wheelchair to use in the house. > > Do any of you know if I should contact the doctor’s office to see if > > they can write a script for wheelchair rental?  Or are there places > > where I can rent a chair for a reasonable price?  I went to a local > > med supply store today and they rent them for $75 a month.  I thought > > that was kind of high.  Does that sound reasonable? > > I hope you all have a wonderful holiday! > > Carol

Response:

i’m pretty sure that most doctor’s can write a ’script’ for almost anything, carol.  and i think insurance companies will cover the costs of a rental chair, if prescribed. line up, in advance of jan 29th, lots of good movies, books and things you love to do that you know you can do while in a wheelchair, at a table you can scoot the chair under, with the leg lifts extended. will be keeping you in my prayerful and healing thoughts, carol. kate

I posted a couple of weeks ago about problems I’ve been having for a few months.  The ortho who I had been seeing had recommended surgery, but was unable to do the surgery because of health problems. Well, after having an MRI on Dec.2nd which the written report stated that nothing showed up and a mix up at the ortho’s office, I finally saw the orthosurgeon who I was referred to.  I thought some of you, who responded to my last post where I asked if synovial fluid/inflamation always showed up on an MRI, would be interested to know what I found out. The ortho laughed when he saw the written report.  After looking at the MRI films, he said that there is definite inflamation around the tendon.  In fact, there’s quite a bit.  He said that the radiologists who read these MRI’s do not know what they’re looking for and they tend to skim over the slides because there are so many of them.  He also said that he has seen MRI’s that look great and when he’s gone in surgically, the tendon looks like "crabmeat"  (YUCK!).  (I hope I don’t remember that the next time I eat crab!)  LOL  He’s also seen MRI’s that look like there’s no tendon left and he’s surprised to see that things are not nearly that bad. I am scheduled for surgery on January 29th.  He will go in and clean up the inflamation, stitch up the tears in the posterior tibial tendon IF he is able to make the repairs.  If  the tendon is in too bad of shape, then he will do a tendon graft using a tendon on the other side of my foot (the one that works the small toes).  My tendon is still functioning, but is very weak.  He’s not sure what he will find when he goes in…it could go either way.  Plus, he said that he can’t guarantee that the inflamation won’t come right back, but I have to have the surgery or guaranteed I will end up with a flat foot with limited functioning. It will be 8 weeks recuperation….2 weeks totally nonweightbearing and then a boot for the next 6 weeks.  I can go back to work after a couple of weeks IF I can guarantee him that I will sit most of the day with my foot elevated.  If I cannot do that then he wants me off work for the entire 8 weeks.  He said that depending on how things go, if things are going well, he will leave it up to me as to how long I want to take off.  Well, I teach a roomful of first graders.  Everyone has been telling me that I need to take the 8 weeks because there’s no way I will be able to stay off my feet and keep the foot elevated all day. I decided to think about it and then yesterday, one the kids stepped right on my bad foot.  Crunch!  OW!  I think I am going to take the 8 weeks.  I have 200 sick days built up, so I have the time. The biggest problems I’m going to have is not going stir crazy and how I’m going to get around during those first two weeks.  They gave me a walker to use, but my hands and wrists are weak, plus my other foot and ankle aren’t very good either.  Also, I live alone and will have some help for a few days, but after that I’m on my own.  So, I’ve decided to look into a wheelchair to use in the house. Do any of you know if I should contact the doctor’s office to see if they can write a script for wheelchair rental?  Or are there places where I can rent a chair for a reasonable price?  I went to a local med supply store today and they rent them for $75 a month.  I thought that was kind of high.  Does that sound reasonable? I hope you all have a wonderful holiday! Carol

Response:

When Dale broke both of his achilles I got him a wheelchair at a medical supply place before I could get him in to see the Dr. they gave me the chair and said to bring in the script. For 3 months the chair was paid totally by ins. Get the script for the chair and don’t forget the request for handicap parking if you don;t have one already. Kathy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Your local red cross will probably get you a chair and all they ask is that > you make a donation when you are finished. > Bruce > I posted a couple of weeks ago about problems I’ve been having for a > few months.  The ortho who I had been seeing had recommended surgery, > but was unable to do the surgery because of health problems. > Well, after having an MRI on Dec.2nd which the written report stated > that nothing showed up and a mix up at the ortho’s office, I finally > saw the orthosurgeon who I was referred to.  I thought some of you, > who responded to my last post where I asked if synovial > fluid/inflamation always showed up on an MRI, would be interested to > know what I found out. > The ortho laughed when he saw the written report.  After looking at > the MRI films, he said that there is definite inflamation around the > tendon.  In fact, there’s quite a bit.  He said that the radiologists > who read these MRI’s do not know what they’re looking for and they > tend to skim over the slides because there are so many of them.  He > also said that he has seen MRI’s that look great and when he’s gone in > surgically, the tendon looks like "crabmeat"  (YUCK!).  (I hope I > don’t remember that the next time I eat crab!)  LOL  He’s also seen > MRI’s that look like there’s no tendon left and he’s surprised to see > that things are not nearly that bad. > I am scheduled for surgery on January 29th.  He will go in and clean > up the inflamation, stitch up the tears in the posterior tibial tendon > IF he is able to make the repairs.  If  the tendon is in too bad of > shape, then he will do a tendon graft using a tendon on the other side > of my foot (the one that works the small toes).  My tendon is still > functioning, but is very weak.  He’s not sure what he will find when > he goes in…it could go either way.  Plus, he said that he can’t > guarantee that the inflamation won’t come right back, but I have to > have the surgery or guaranteed I will end up with a flat foot with > limited functioning. > It will be 8 weeks recuperation….2 weeks totally nonweightbearing > and then a boot for the next 6 weeks.  I can go back to work after a > couple of weeks IF I can guarantee him that I will sit most of the day > with my foot elevated.  If I cannot do that then he wants me off work > for the entire 8 weeks.  He said that depending on how things go, if > things are going well, he will leave it up to me as to how long I want > to take off.  Well, I teach a roomful of first graders.  Everyone has > been telling me that I need to take the 8 weeks because there’s no way > I will be able to stay off my feet and keep the foot elevated all day. > I decided to think about it and then yesterday, one the kids stepped > right on my bad foot.  Crunch!  OW!  I think I am going to take the 8 > weeks.  I have 200 sick days built up, so I have the time. > The biggest problems I’m going to have is not going stir crazy and how > I’m going to get around during those first two weeks.  They gave me a > walker to use, but my hands and wrists are weak, plus my other foot > and ankle aren’t very good either.  Also, I live alone and will have > some help for a few days, but after that I’m on my own.  So, I’ve > decided to look into a wheelchair to use in the house. > Do any of you know if I should contact the doctor’s office to see if > they can write a script for wheelchair rental?  Or are there places > where I can rent a chair for a reasonable price?  I went to a local > med supply store today and they rent them for $75 a month.  I thought > that was kind of high.  Does that sound reasonable? > I hope you all have a wonderful holiday! > Carol

Response:

Years ago when I did some accounting work for Easter Seals they had a large loan out closet of durable medical equipment such as walkers and wheel chairs.  (No low income requirement, but a donation would be nice if you can afford it.)  Another organization that might depending on where you are would be the Veterans of Foreign Wars. My biggest problem after my (abdominal) surgery was getting up off the toilet.  We put a good portable grab bar on the tub in the main bathroom  where it worked to pull up off the toilet too, but I forgot and got stuck in the smaller bathroom by my bedroom a couple of times.  There will be a proper grab bar in there as soon as the holidays are over.  If I can just figure out where to attach it. The most useful help was a small bath chair thing that fit in the tub.  No way could I stand long enough for a proper shower, or get up from a bath.  I already had a handheld type showerhead. My knees make it hard to get up from a sofa etc anyway and adding 18" of stitches in my chest didn’t help at all.  I still use my office chair or a dining room chair a lot of the time as both have arms and wheels. Just notice the things you do around home the next couple of weeks and figure where you will need help.  And figure how you will summon help if you get in a jam. — Jo Firey "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Your local red cross will probably get you a chair and all they ask is that > you make a donation when you are finished. > Bruce > I posted a couple of weeks ago about problems I’ve been having for a > few months.  The ortho who I had been seeing had recommended surgery, > but was unable to do the surgery because of health problems. > Well, after having an MRI on Dec.2nd which the written report stated > that nothing showed up and a mix up at the ortho’s office, I finally > saw the orthosurgeon who I was referred to.  I thought some of you, > who responded to my last post where I asked if synovial > fluid/inflamation always showed up on an MRI, would be interested to > know what I found out. > The ortho laughed when he saw the written report.  After looking at > the MRI films, he said that there is definite inflamation around the > tendon.  In fact, there’s quite a bit.  He said that the radiologists > who read these MRI’s do not know what they’re looking for and they > tend to skim over the slides because there are so many of them.  He > also said that he has seen MRI’s that look great and when he’s gone in > surgically, the tendon looks like "crabmeat"  (YUCK!).  (I hope I > don’t remember that the next time I eat crab!)  LOL  He’s also seen > MRI’s that look like there’s no tendon left and he’s surprised to see > that things are not nearly that bad. > I am scheduled for surgery on January 29th.  He will go in and clean > up the inflamation, stitch up the tears in the posterior tibial tendon > IF he is able to make the repairs.  If  the tendon is in too bad of > shape, then he will do a tendon graft using a tendon on the other side > of my foot (the one that works the small toes).  My tendon is still > functioning, but is very weak.  He’s not sure what he will find when > he goes in…it could go either way.  Plus, he said that he can’t > guarantee that the inflamation won’t come right back, but I have to > have the surgery or guaranteed I will end up with a flat foot with > limited functioning. > It will be 8 weeks recuperation….2 weeks totally nonweightbearing > and then a boot for the next 6 weeks.  I can go back to work after a > couple of weeks IF I can guarantee him that I will sit most of the day > with my foot elevated.  If I cannot do that then he wants me off work > for the entire 8 weeks.  He said that depending on how things go, if > things are going well, he will leave it up to me as to how long I want > to take off.  Well, I teach a roomful of first graders. Everyone has > been telling me that I need to take the 8 weeks because there’s no way > I will be able to stay off my feet and keep the foot elevated all day. > I decided to think about it and then yesterday, one the kids stepped > right on my bad foot.  Crunch!  OW!  I think I am going to take the 8 > weeks.  I have 200 sick days built up, so I have the time. > The biggest problems I’m going to have is not going stir crazy and how > I’m going to get around during those first two weeks.  They gave me a > walker to use, but my hands and wrists are weak, plus my other foot > and ankle aren’t very good either.  Also, I live alone and will have > some help for a few days, but after that I’m on my own.  So, I’ve > decided to look into a wheelchair to use in the house. > Do any of you know if I should contact the doctor’s office to see if > they can write a script for wheelchair rental?  Or are there places > where I can rent a chair for a reasonable price?  I went to a local > med supply store today and they rent them for $75 a month. I thought > that was kind of high.  Does that sound reasonable? > I hope you all have a wonderful holiday! > Carol

Response:

Carol, If you need a shower stool, I have one. No wheelchair though. Keep us posted! ~KJ Akron, Ohio http://arthritisinsight.com Knowledge is power…support is essential. Tina’s Togs http://tinastogs.com Quality Plus Size and Vintage Fashions Coming soon to a puter near you!

Response:

I posted a couple of weeks ago about problems I’ve been having for a few months.  The ortho who I had been seeing had recommended surgery, but was unable to do the surgery because of health problems. Well, after having an MRI on Dec.2nd which the written report stated that nothing showed up and a mix up at the ortho’s office, I finally saw the orthosurgeon who I was referred to.  I thought some of you, who responded to my last post where I asked if synovial fluid/inflamation always showed up on an MRI, would be interested to know what I found out. The ortho laughed when he saw the written report.  After looking at the MRI films, he said that there is definite inflamation around the tendon.  In fact, there’s quite a bit.  He said that the radiologists who read these MRI’s do not know what they’re looking for and they tend to skim over the slides because there are so many of them.  He also said that he has seen MRI’s that look great and when he’s gone in surgically, the tendon looks like "crabmeat"  (YUCK!).  (I hope I don’t remember that the next time I eat crab!)  LOL  He’s also seen MRI’s that look like there’s no tendon left and he’s surprised to see that things are not nearly that bad. I am scheduled for surgery on January 29th.  He will go in and clean up the inflamation, stitch up the tears in the posterior tibial tendon IF he is able to make the repairs.  If  the tendon is in too bad of shape, then he will do a tendon graft using a tendon on the other side of my foot (the one that works the small toes).  My tendon is still functioning, but is very weak.  He’s not sure what he will find when he goes in…it could go either way.  Plus, he said that he can’t guarantee that the inflamation won’t come right back, but I have to have the surgery or guaranteed I will end up with a flat foot with limited functioning. It will be 8 weeks recuperation….2 weeks totally nonweightbearing and then a boot for the next 6 weeks.  I can go back to work after a couple of weeks IF I can guarantee him that I will sit most of the day with my foot elevated.  If I cannot do that then he wants me off work for the entire 8 weeks.  He said that depending on how things go, if things are going well, he will leave it up to me as to how long I want to take off.  Well, I teach a roomful of first graders.  Everyone has been telling me that I need to take the 8 weeks because there’s no way I will be able to stay off my feet and keep the foot elevated all day. I decided to think about it and then yesterday, one the kids stepped right on my bad foot.  Crunch!  OW!  I think I am going to take the 8 weeks.  I have 200 sick days built up, so I have the time. The biggest problems I’m going to have is not going stir crazy and how I’m going to get around during those first two weeks.  They gave me a walker to use, but my hands and wrists are weak, plus my other foot and ankle aren’t very good either.  Also, I live alone and will have some help for a few days, but after that I’m on my own.  So, I’ve decided to look into a wheelchair to use in the house. Do any of you know if I should contact the doctor’s office to see if they can write a script for wheelchair rental?  Or are there places where I can rent a chair for a reasonable price?  I went to a local med supply store today and they rent them for $75 a month.  I thought that was kind of high.  Does that sound reasonable? I hope you all have a wonderful holiday! Carol

Response:

Your local red cross will probably get you a chair and all they ask is that you make a donation when you are finished. Bruce

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I posted a couple of weeks ago about problems I’ve been having for a > few months.  The ortho who I had been seeing had recommended surgery, > but was unable to do the surgery because of health problems. > Well, after having an MRI on Dec.2nd which the written report stated > that nothing showed up and a mix up at the ortho’s office, I finally > saw the orthosurgeon who I was referred to.  I thought some of you, > who responded to my last post where I asked if synovial > fluid/inflamation always showed up on an MRI, would be interested to > know what I found out. > The ortho laughed when he saw the written report.  After looking at > the MRI films, he said that there is definite inflamation around the > tendon.  In fact, there’s quite a bit.  He said that the radiologists > who read these MRI’s do not know what they’re looking for and they > tend to skim over the slides because there are so many of them.  He > also said that he has seen MRI’s that look great and when he’s gone in > surgically, the tendon looks like "crabmeat"  (YUCK!).  (I hope I > don’t remember that the next time I eat crab!)  LOL  He’s also seen > MRI’s that look like there’s no tendon left and he’s surprised to see > that things are not nearly that bad. > I am scheduled for surgery on January 29th.  He will go in and clean > up the inflamation, stitch up the tears in the posterior tibial tendon > IF he is able to make the repairs.  If  the tendon is in too bad of > shape, then he will do a tendon graft using a tendon on the other side > of my foot (the one that works the small toes).  My tendon is still > functioning, but is very weak.  He’s not sure what he will find when > he goes in…it could go either way.  Plus, he said that he can’t > guarantee that the inflamation won’t come right back, but I have to > have the surgery or guaranteed I will end up with a flat foot with > limited functioning. > It will be 8 weeks recuperation….2 weeks totally nonweightbearing > and then a boot for the next 6 weeks.  I can go back to work after a > couple of weeks IF I can guarantee him that I will sit most of the day > with my foot elevated.  If I cannot do that then he wants me off work > for the entire 8 weeks.  He said that depending on how things go, if > things are going well, he will leave it up to me as to how long I want > to take off.  Well, I teach a roomful of first graders.  Everyone has > been telling me that I need to take the 8 weeks because there’s no way > I will be able to stay off my feet and keep the foot elevated all day. > I decided to think about it and then yesterday, one the kids stepped > right on my bad foot.  Crunch!  OW!  I think I am going to take the 8 > weeks.  I have 200 sick days built up, so I have the time. > The biggest problems I’m going to have is not going stir crazy and how > I’m going to get around during those first two weeks.  They gave me a > walker to use, but my hands and wrists are weak, plus my other foot > and ankle aren’t very good either.  Also, I live alone and will have > some help for a few days, but after that I’m on my own.  So, I’ve > decided to look into a wheelchair to use in the house. > Do any of you know if I should contact the doctor’s office to see if > they can write a script for wheelchair rental?  Or are there places > where I can rent a chair for a reasonable price?  I went to a local > med supply store today and they rent them for $75 a month.  I thought > that was kind of high.  Does that sound reasonable? > I hope you all have a wonderful holiday! > Carol

Response:

Question:

We’re a group of 10 looking for a villa in jamaica. we’ve found a few, but we have some questions from those who’ve experienced a villa before. Are most villas within walking distance from the beach? Will the staff be of assistance, or are they less enthusiastic to help? Do you feel you would have rather spent the time at a resort, or was the villa vacation unique? how about the safety of the villa? Did you feel comfortable with your group there? Thanks. We’re not looking for prices, just more information about the experience to make sure we’re making the right decision. -cmb

Response:

Be wary! We had a bad experience with a Jamaican villa. Only stayed one night. When we arrived, the ‘maid’ who was there to care for our needs had bought a whole lot of groceries, most of which we would never use, and expected payment for them on the spot as she was ‘out of pocket’. This was something we had NOT negotiated with the owner. The beds were all covered in plastic, even the pillows, and although there were sheets and cases over the plastic, it rustled as we moved in bed. There was no lock on the bathroom door. The outside lounge chairs were filthy from suntan oil. We were told we could use the beach at a nearby resort, Caribbean Club, but we went once and didn’t care for the look of the place — black sand! We were kept awake by trucks rumbling by all night long and roosters crowing in the early morning, then rain falling on a roof that had holes in it. Never again! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->We’re a group of 10 looking for a villa in jamaica. we’ve found a few, >but we have some questions from those who’ve experienced a villa >before. Are most villas within walking distance from the beach? Will >the staff be of assistance, or are they less enthusiastic to help? Do >you feel you would have rather spent the time at a resort, or was the >villa vacation unique? how about the safety of the villa? Did you feel >comfortable with your group there? Thanks. We’re not looking for >prices, just more information about the experience to make sure we’re >making the right decision. >-cmb

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Be wary! We had a bad experience with a Jamaican villa. Only stayed > one night. When we arrived, the ‘maid’ who was there to care for our > needs had bought a whole lot of groceries, most of which we would > never use, and expected payment for them on the spot as she was ‘out > of pocket’. This was something we had NOT negotiated with the owner. > The beds were all covered in plastic, even the pillows, and although > there were sheets and cases over the plastic, it rustled as we moved > in bed. There was no lock on the bathroom door. The outside lounge > chairs were filthy from suntan oil. We were told we could use the > beach at a nearby resort, Caribbean Club, but we went once and didn’t > care for the look of the place — black sand! > We were kept awake by trucks rumbling by all night long and roosters > crowing in the early morning, then rain falling on a roof that had > holes in it. > Never again!

And just think, some people pine at the opportunity to do what you found so bad.   There is only one Jamaica! mtbchip…. been there, done that 1996,97 & 98

Response:

> Be wary! We had a bad experience with a Jamaican villa. Only stayed > one night. When we arrived, the ‘maid’ who was there to care for our > needs had bought a whole lot of groceries, most of which we would > never use, and expected payment for them on the spot as she was ‘out > of pocket’. This was something we had NOT negotiated with the owner.

I would have made it clear that I never asked for this service and would only pay for what I wanted.  I would go thru the groceries and pay her for only the things I wanted.  She can keep the rest or try to return it.  I would ofcourse require the grocery bill in the first place to check the prices for padding.  I would also pay a small amount indepentant of the groceries for her time spent. > The beds were all covered in plastic, even the pillows, and although > there were sheets and cases over the plastic, it rustled as we moved > in bed. There was no lock on the bathroom door.

Listen, that is what my mom’s house was like when we lived in Jamaica, don’t take it personally, a lot of people do that in warm climates otherwise everything would soak up sweat. > The outside lounge chairs were filthy from suntan oil.

Did you ask the maid to clean them?  A wash with a waterhose was probably all you needed. We were told we could use the > beach at a nearby resort, Caribbean Club, but we went once and didn’t > care for the look of the place — black sand!

Black Sand!  Do you know how rare true Black Sand beachs are?  I have never seen or walk on one, and I would pay  extra to experience it atleast once in my life. > We were kept awake by trucks rumbling by all night long

Bad location, sorry to read this. >and roosters crowing in the early morning,

Don’t go to the Carribean then, roosters are everywhere >then rain falling on a roof that had holes in it.

Sorry again, but atleast it was a warm rain. > Never again!

Too bad, on the otherhand I would never invite picky people like you up to my cabin at Parry Sound, Ontario, Canada.  Mists on the lake, loons in the water calling each other, great fishing and swinning, backs onto a National Park to give a couple hundred kilometers of canoeing.  But no running water, no hot showers, outhouse, battery powered lights, and you have to climb up hill to get to a cabin tucked away in the only old growth forest for kilos around, but it clearly is not for you.                Earl Colby Pottinger >We’re a group of 10 looking for a villa in jamaica. we’ve found a few, >but we have some questions from those who’ve experienced a villa >before. Are most villas within walking distance from the beach? Will >the staff be of assistance, or are they less enthusiastic to help? Do >you feel you would have rather spent the time at a resort, or was the >villa vacation unique? how about the safety of the villa? Did you feel >comfortable with your group there? Thanks. We’re not looking for >prices, just more information about the experience to make sure we’re >making the right decision. >-cmb > .

– I make public email sent to me!  GirlFriend, ex-GirlFriend, Hydrogen Peroxide Rockets, OpenBeos, SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY TabletPC. What happened to the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

Response:

Had the op to live on Little Cayman back when the water was what you caught off the roof, telephone was only one radio type, electric was only when your generator was up and running. Hard times but I would give anything to do it again. Next time you go to Jaman mon soak up the experience and live a little. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Be wary! We had a bad experience with a Jamaican villa. Only stayed > one night. When we arrived, the ‘maid’ who was there to care for our > needs had bought a whole lot of groceries, most of which we would > never use, and expected payment for them on the spot as she was ‘out > of pocket’. This was something we had NOT negotiated with the owner. > I would have made it clear that I never asked for this service and would only > pay for what I wanted.  I would go thru the groceries and pay her for only > the things I wanted.  She can keep the rest or try to return it.  I would > ofcourse require the grocery bill in the first place to check the prices for > padding.  I would also pay a small amount indepentant of the groceries for > her time spent. > The beds were all covered in plastic, even the pillows, and although > there were sheets and cases over the plastic, it rustled as we moved > in bed. There was no lock on the bathroom door. > Listen, that is what my mom’s house was like when we lived in Jamaica, don’t > take it personally, a lot of people do that in warm climates otherwise > everything would soak up sweat. > The outside lounge chairs were filthy from suntan oil. > Did you ask the maid to clean them?  A wash with a waterhose was probably all > you needed. > We were told we could use the > beach at a nearby resort, Caribbean Club, but we went once and didn’t > care for the look of the place — black sand! > Black Sand!  Do you know how rare true Black Sand beachs are?  I have never > seen or walk on one, and I would pay  extra to experience it atleast once in > my life. > We were kept awake by trucks rumbling by all night long > Bad location, sorry to read this. >and roosters crowing in the early morning, > Don’t go to the Carribean then, roosters are everywhere >then rain falling on a roof that had holes in it. > Sorry again, but atleast it was a warm rain. > Never again! > Too bad, on the otherhand I would never invite picky people like you up to my > cabin at Parry Sound, Ontario, Canada.  Mists on the lake, loons in the water > calling each other, great fishing and swinning, backs onto a National Park to > give a couple hundred kilometers of canoeing.  But no running water, no hot > showers, outhouse, battery powered lights, and you have to climb up hill to > get to a cabin tucked away in the only old growth forest for kilos around, > but it clearly is not for you. >                Earl Colby Pottinger > >We’re a group of 10 looking for a villa in jamaica. we’ve found a few, > >but we have some questions from those who’ve experienced a villa > >before. Are most villas within walking distance from the beach? Will > >the staff be of assistance, or are they less enthusiastic to help? Do > >you feel you would have rather spent the time at a resort, or was the > >villa vacation unique? how about the safety of the villa? Did you feel > >comfortable with your group there? Thanks. We’re not looking for > >prices, just more information about the experience to make sure we’re > >making the right decision. > >-cmb > . > — > I make public email sent to me!  GirlFriend, ex-GirlFriend, Hydrogen Peroxide > Rockets, OpenBeos, SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY TabletPC. > What happened to the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

Response:

Have been to Jamaica more than 25 times and love it. This experience didn’t put us off, but I wanted to warn anyone thinking of renting a villa. Ask lots of questions first. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Had the op to live on Little Cayman back when the water was what you caught >off the roof, telephone was only one radio type, electric was only when your >generator was up and running. Hard times but I would give anything to do it >again. Next time you go to Jaman mon soak up the experience and live a >little. > > Be wary! We had a bad experience with a Jamaican villa. Only stayed > > one night. When we arrived, the ‘maid’ who was there to care for our > > needs had bought a whole lot of groceries, most of which we would > > never use, and expected payment for them on the spot as she was ‘out > > of pocket’. This was something we had NOT negotiated with the owner. > I would have made it clear that I never asked for this service and would >only > pay for what I wanted.  I would go thru the groceries and pay her for only > the things I wanted.  She can keep the rest or try to return it.  I would > ofcourse require the grocery bill in the first place to check the prices >for > padding.  I would also pay a small amount indepentant of the groceries for > her time spent. > > The beds were all covered in plastic, even the pillows, and although > > there were sheets and cases over the plastic, it rustled as we moved > > in bed. There was no lock on the bathroom door. > Listen, that is what my mom’s house was like when we lived in Jamaica, >don’t > take it personally, a lot of people do that in warm climates otherwise > everything would soak up sweat. > > The outside lounge chairs were filthy from suntan oil. > Did you ask the maid to clean them?  A wash with a waterhose was probably >all > you needed. > We were told we could use the > > beach at a nearby resort, Caribbean Club, but we went once and didn’t > > care for the look of the place — black sand! > Black Sand!  Do you know how rare true Black Sand beachs are?  I have >never > seen or walk on one, and I would pay  extra to experience it atleast once >in > my life. > > We were kept awake by trucks rumbling by all night long > Bad location, sorry to read this. > >and roosters crowing in the early morning, > Don’t go to the Carribean then, roosters are everywhere > >then rain falling on a roof that had holes in it. > Sorry again, but atleast it was a warm rain. > > Never again! > Too bad, on the otherhand I would never invite picky people like you up to >my > cabin at Parry Sound, Ontario, Canada.  Mists on the lake, loons in the >water > calling each other, great fishing and swinning, backs onto a National Park >to > give a couple hundred kilometers of canoeing.  But no running water, no >hot > showers, outhouse, battery powered lights, and you have to climb up hill >to > get to a cabin tucked away in the only old growth forest for kilos around, > but it clearly is not for you. >                Earl Colby Pottinger > > >We’re a group of 10 looking for a villa in jamaica. we’ve found a few, > > >but we have some questions from those who’ve experienced a villa > > >before. Are most villas within walking distance from the beach? Will > > >the staff be of assistance, or are they less enthusiastic to help? Do > > >you feel you would have rather spent the time at a resort, or was the > > >villa vacation unique? how about the safety of the villa? Did you feel > > >comfortable with your group there? Thanks. We’re not looking for > > >prices, just more information about the experience to make sure we’re > > >making the right decision. > > >-cmb > > . > — > I make public email sent to me!  GirlFriend, ex-GirlFriend, Hydrogen >Peroxide > Rockets, OpenBeos, SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY >TabletPC. > What happened to the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

Response:

> Have been to Jamaica more than 25 times and love it. This experience > didn’t put us off, but I wanted to warn anyone thinking of renting a > villa. Ask lots of questions first.

I do agree with you about the questions, one should never go blindly into a foriegn country.  I misunderstood your "never again" to mean that you would not go back to Jamaica, silly me.  Hope you don’t think my answer was too harsh?               Earl Colby Pottinger — I make public email sent to me!  GirlFriend, ex-GirlFriend, Hydrogen Peroxide Rockets, OpenBeos, SerialTransfer 3.0, RAMDISK, BoatBuilding, DIY TabletPC. What happened to the time? http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp

Response:

Me and my brother visited Jamaica, and some other islands, on a 4 week trip in october. We ended up renting a room in a villa for a few days. Had a blast. David who ran the place made us breakfast and dinner, took us to see the "non-tourist" attractions, used his local connections to mak our stay as good as possible. He kept the place in really good shape. Some of his friends also stayed at the villa a few days….Earwin, Chuckie, Patrick I miss you all. Some days his friends beat him to it in making us breakfast, I just love the Jamaican breakfasts. You can take a look at the villa http://www.jamaica-beachvillas.com/ I’m also puting up some pictures at http://www.pbase.com/slovnitjki They actually have two villas right next to each other. This villa is in Long Bay close to Port Antonio on the northern coast. Right on a long white beach. Close to the Blue Lagoon…soo beautiful and quiet…love it. I would go back without hesitating if I had the money…I’m desperately saving for it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > We’re a group of 10 looking for a villa in jamaica. we’ve found a few, > but we have some questions from those who’ve experienced a villa > before. Are most villas within walking distance from the beach? Will > the staff be of assistance, or are they less enthusiastic to help? Do > you feel you would have rather spent the time at a resort, or was the > villa vacation unique? how about the safety of the villa? Did you feel > comfortable with your group there? Thanks. We’re not looking for > prices, just more information about the experience to make sure we’re > making the right decision. > -cmb

Response:

Question:

I recently moved in to an apartment, and wanting to replace the existing overhead kitchen lighting with fluorescents, I pull the existing incandescent fixture, and there are two black wires staring down at me. My first impression was that I’ve got a hot/neutral pair that someone just used black wire for. So, I hook the hots for the two fluorescents to one wire, and the neutrals to the other and run some wire to water pipe for a ground. I throw the wall switch and the whole apt goes dead. This pissed me off very much as: A) The fuse/breaker in my fuse box should have gone first (it’s a 15A push-button-replacement-for-fuse type). B) I now had to shower and shave for a party by candlelight (as I have to phone the super to turn the main breaker for my apt back on). So later I am checking things out. I haven’t crossed any wires or any other obvious wiring mistakes. There are no other wires going in, out or through the box in the ceiling. The two wires give me 120.1VAC when hooked up through my multimeter. Here’s where it gets really strange. Both ceiling wires are hot. When hooked up to a ground, through the multimeter, each wire gives me a reading that jumps around wildly peaking at about 40V. Now this may have something to do with the fact that I am standing on a ladder, trying to read the LCD while holding one lead to a bare wire in the ceiling and the other lead into the ground of an extension cord which is plugged into a power strip which is plugged into a surge protector which is plugged into a wall socket which has a ground wire running about  8ft to a heating pipe (steam). I later plugged in both of the florescent fixtures, one at a time, into that same extension cord, and they both worked. You see, only one outlet in the whole apt was grounded when I moved in. No, it was not the one in the bathroom or one of the ones in the kitchen. I wish it were one of the kitchen outlets, as after I remove every fuse in my box, it still gives up juice (it is however on my main as when I blew out the whole apt it went dead). I know the kitchen light is on a fuse, as I pulled it and replaced the wall switch a week prior. Any ideas? I am completely stumped here. How can I get 120VAC from two wires that are both "hot"? Why didn’t my fuse/breaker thing trip? Why will a rudimentary incandescent fixture with a 150W tungsten bulb work, but not two florescent fixtures with two 40W bulbs each?

Response:

> So, I hook the hots for the two > fluorescents to one wire, and the neutrals to the other and run some > wire to water pipe for a ground. I throw the wall switch and the whole > apt goes dead.

Are you friggin’ crazy???  -Tim

Response:

>> So, I hook the hots for the two > fluorescents to one wire, and the neutrals to the other and run some > wire to water pipe for a ground. I throw the wall switch and the whole > apt goes dead. >Are you friggin’ crazy??? > -Tim

Yes, he is. And I doubt his residential lease authorizes him to do these sorts of ‘renovations’. What was crazier was him (its GOTTA be a guy) showering etc in the dark after he blew it all out! -v.    

Response:

Maybe your two "hot" wires are on opposite phases of the transformer. (Normally we would expect them to be 240 V apart if that is the case; are they?) It sounds like it’s time to get the landlord to have a licensed electrician come in and bring the wiring up to code.  There are regulatory reasons they shouldn’t be able to get away with renting you an apartment wired by a lunatic.

Response:

There are a lot things that could be going on.  Could be that one or both of the two wires you were using is in series with another light fixture or equipment, which might even be in another apartment.  Your grounds could be flaky;  pipes often are because somewhere along the pipeline, there may be a section of plastic or they may "dead end" in a piece of equipment (often the case in for air, gas, vacuum, steam, etc.).  Could be there is a short in one of the fluorescent fixtures, and the water pipe used as the first ground is a good ground, and the steam pipe used to test them later is a poor ground.  This could also explain the multimeter readings.  In an apartment building, even a fairly well grounded pipe can give fluctuating voltage readings to a neutral line depending on what other tenants have connected to the pipe (a radio transmitter antenna ground is a good example).  BTW if a short draws enough amps to trip the main breaker, it may trip before the branch circuit breaker.  Did you re-install the incandescent fixture and verify that it still works?  This would rule-out some insulation in the old wires having flaked off and caused a short.  Suggest that if the incandescent fixture works, that you get a screw-in flourescent replacement bulb, and have a professional electrician look at the situation before proceding with any re-wiring. You have a safety problem with your outlets if you don’t have adequate grounds and/or GFCI. Mike

: I recently moved in to an apartment, and wanting to replace the : existing overhead kitchen lighting with fluorescents, I pull the : existing incandescent fixture, and there are two black wires staring : down at me. My first impression was that I’ve got a hot/neutral pair : that someone just used black wire for. So, I hook the hots for the two : fluorescents to one wire, and the neutrals to the other and run some : wire to water pipe for a ground. I throw the wall switch and the whole : apt goes dead. This pissed me off very much as: : A) The fuse/breaker in my fuse box should have gone first (it’s a 15A : push-button-replacement-for-fuse type). : B) I now had to shower and shave for a party by candlelight (as I have : to phone the super to turn the main breaker for my apt back on). : So later I am checking things out. I haven’t crossed any wires or any : other obvious wiring mistakes. There are no other wires going in, out : or through the box in the ceiling. The two wires give me 120.1VAC when : hooked up through my multimeter. Here’s where it gets really strange. : Both ceiling wires are hot. : When hooked up to a ground, through the multimeter, each wire gives me : a reading that jumps around wildly peaking at about 40V. Now this may : have something to do with the fact that I am standing on a ladder, : trying to read the LCD while holding one lead to a bare wire in the : ceiling and the other lead into the ground of an extension cord which : is plugged into a power strip which is plugged into a surge protector : which is plugged into a wall socket which has a ground wire running : about  8ft to a heating pipe (steam). I later plugged in both of the : florescent fixtures, one at a time, into that same extension cord, and : they both worked. : You see, only one outlet in the whole apt was grounded when I moved : in. No, it was not the one in the bathroom or one of the ones in the : kitchen. I wish it were one of the kitchen outlets, as after I remove : every fuse in my box, it still gives up juice (it is however on my : main as when I blew out the whole apt it went dead). I know the : kitchen light is on a fuse, as I pulled it and replaced the wall : switch a week prior. : Any ideas? I am completely stumped here. How can I get 120VAC from two : wires that are both "hot"? Why didn’t my fuse/breaker thing trip? Why : will a rudimentary incandescent fixture with a 150W tungsten bulb : work, but not two florescent fixtures with two 40W bulbs each?

Response:

> fluorescents to one wire, and the neutrals to the other and run some > wire to water pipe for a ground. I throw the wall switch and the whole

First off, all water pipes are not magically "grounded".  For all you know, the water pipes are *not* grounded, but are electrically connected through several apartments, and your ground wire could end up energizing the plumbing in the event of a fault, and zap some poor sod taking a dump 3 apartments over. Don’t go around hooking electrical wires to things that you are not 100% sure about (following this bit of advice would have also prevented your candlelight shower). > When hooked up to a ground, through the multimeter, each wire gives me > a reading that jumps around wildly peaking at about 40V. Now this may > have something to do with the fact that I am standing on a ladder, > trying to read the LCD while holding one lead to a bare wire in the > ceiling and the other lead into the ground of an extension cord which > is plugged into a power strip which is plugged into a surge protector > which is plugged into a wall socket which has a ground wire running > about  8ft to a heating pipe (steam). I later plugged in both of the > florescent fixtures, one at a time, into that same extension cord, and > they both worked.

The above information is useless.  Your rigged-up ground scheme and flaky measurement system yield invalid results. > Any ideas? I am completely stumped here. How can I get 120VAC from two > wires that are both "hot"? Why didn’t my fuse/breaker thing trip? Why

There is information about the electrical system that you are missing. I’m sure you don’t want to pay for an electrician, but you are likely to end up with many more candlelight showers if you attempt to debug this using the skills/logic base you have conveyed thus far. sorry…

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