Question:
All: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > Does anyone know if chromium "accumulates" in our bodies? It seems to me > that it wouldn’t be to hard to find out, if no one has done so already. > It does not, according to the RDA peeple, and believe me they are ready > to shoot supplements down in a heartbeat. Chromium, proportionally, is > one of the _least_ toxic minerals, for two reason: absorption is > apparently regulated, and excess is excreted in the urine.
See Anderson (1997) _J Am Coll Nutr_ 16:273-9. In rats, at least, it does indeed accumulate in the kidneys ad liver, in a dose-dependent manner. It none the less seeems nontoxic at the levels administered. > The problem is likely in the goddammed picolinate, and here is my 2c on > that: Picolinate is a bastardized form of: NIACIN!!
No: it’s a polypeptide or protein, as I recall. You’re thinking, most likely, of chromium POLYNICOTINATE, which is a horse of a different gender. Niacin-complexed > chromium is often how chromium is found in nature, and therefore is not > patentable (I think–seems anything is patentable, but anyway..) But, > chromium picolinate IS patented (I think).
Yes: by the USDA, not its vendors. So guess what? It is hawked > mercilessly, esp on AM radio, even 1010 WINS, which has boucou expensive > air time. And probably it is unmetabolizable, given that mommy nature > went to significant pains to make Niacin specifically the meta > isomer–picolinate is the ortho. An article about picolinate appeared > in a newsgroup, casting suspicions on the picolinate itself. I might be > able to dig it up, if anyone is dying for it.
It remains the only CR supplement which consistently improves body composition and glycemia in animals (incl. humans). > The RDA points out that the "pseudo-RDA" for Cr is 50-200 mcg. Yet > rats subjected to 5 milligrams/liter for their lifetime showed no > ill-effect. Ditto rats subjected to 100 milligrams/kg (not clear if > this is food or BW). That is a lot of chromium, dudes. Since what is > good enough for a rat is apparently good enough for us….
It’s food. And the study you’re referencing here is the Anderson study I referenced above, on Cr Picolinate. > Hexavalent Cr (we eat trivalent) is carcinogenic. Don’t work in an > industrial chromium plant.
Patentted CrPic is trivalent. > Buy the cheapest Cr you can find–but not from a car bumper, please. > In my experience, every exotic form of a basic nutrient, whether it is > Cr picolinate or Ester C, or crystallized Vit C, is a ripoff, one way or > the other. I’m starting to view Burger King Whoppers as refreshingly > honest… And they really do have more beef than McDs.
Again, no other form seems to DO anything, and certainly only CrPic has been shown to extend average lifespan. > Thinking about bronzing my first Nike’s and chroming my first > condom (yes, I still have it)…
Nike are child-labor exploiting, third-world-dictatorship supporting, livelihood-stealing bastards. Hopefully, you’ve bought your LAST Nikes. Love is the law, love under will. -Michael The Multilateral Agreement on Investment (MAI) is the most serious threat to the democratic process, the environment, human rights, and real third-world development to emerge in the post-WWII era. Find out more at <www.flora.org>. Please FAX your elected representatives, as the next meeting is in the last week of October. In Canada, FAX Sergio Marchi, Minister for International Trade, at (613) 947 – 4452.
Response:
> > > Does anyone know if chromium "accumulates" in our bodies? It seems to me > > that it wouldn’t be to hard to find out, if no one has done so already. > See Anderson (1997) _J Am Coll Nutr_ 16:273-9. In rats, at least, it does > indeed accumulate in the kidneys ad liver, in a dose-dependent manner. It > none the less seeems nontoxic at the levels administered.
This is a good point. Nontoxicity does not necessarily mean non-accumulation. But in point of fact, chromium is apparently designed to accumulate, in an itty-bitty body pool of a few milligrams. Perhaps this pool is simply growing. Toxicity: > The problem is likely in the goddammed picolinate, and here is my 2c on > that: Picolinate is a bastardized form of: NIACIN!! > No: it’s a polypeptide or protein, as I recall. You’re thinking, most > likely, of chromium POLYNICOTINATE, which is a horse of a different > gender.
One of us has made an embarrassing error, and I hope it is not me, since I have been ballyhooing about this picolinate stuff for some time. Picolinate, or picolinic acid, IS, according to the Merck, the ortho isomer of nicotinate. A manufacturer of Cr Pic specifies "picolinic acid" which is indeed the listed ortho isomer. Unless the mfrs of chromium picolinate have ignored accepted nomenclature and simply called some peptide picolinate… However, GTF Cr is in fact a polynicotinate, stabilized by glycine, cysteine and glutamate (the very constituents of…glutathione!). Cr is, contrary to my ravings, better absorbed as this di-nicotinate. So I suspect the marketeers have indeed replaced the di-nicotinate with a di-picolinate, and not a protein. > Niacin-complexed > chromium is often how chromium is found in nature, and therefore is not > patentable (I think–seems anything is patentable, but anyway..) But, > chromium picolinate IS patented (I think). > Yes: by the USDA, not its vendors.
I would find this amazing. The USDA does not, to my knowledge, do this. They can barely measure molecules, much less make them. > It remains the only CR supplement which consistently improves body > composition and glycemia in animals (incl. humans).
And I stand corrected here, as these organic forms of Cr ARE absorbed much better. But it is also probably true that the body does not KNOW if it is picolinate or nicotinate as the "cofactor". And the constant influx of picolinate may present a problem for the body. > The RDA points out that the "pseudo-RDA" for Cr is 50-200 mcg. Yet > rats subjected to 5 milligrams/liter for their lifetime showed no > ill-effect. Ditto rats subjected to 100 milligrams/kg (not clear if > this is food or BW). That is a lot of chromium, dudes. Since what is > good enough for a rat is apparently good enough for us…. > It’s food. And the study you’re referencing here is the Anderson study I > referenced above, on Cr Picolinate.
No it isn’t. Not according to the RDA peeple–some ICPS study. > Again, no other form seems to DO anything,
This is unlikely. The body FORMS the active organic complex from inorganic (ionic) chromium. And if _your_ picolinate were a peptide, this peptide would have to be shed so the body could _make_ GTF. > and certainly only CrPic has been shown to extend average lifespan.
Whose? Rats? Possibly, by forcing the body pool to enlarge ("accumulate", if you will). There is still debate about the necessity of Cr in humans, as opposed to the demonstrated necessity in rats. I believe it is necessary, but when the area is already gray, I think it is premature to preach life extension. Of course, life span gets maximized as nutrition becomes optimized. Kinda has ring to it, dudnit? But the point still remains that if spending bucks on an organic form of Cr, it might as well be Cr Nicotinate, not the bastard picolinate–assuming I’m correct about the structure of picolinate. A note on costs vs. absorption. Organic forms of Cr are indeed absorbed 10-20 times better than simple Cr3-. But, according to a poster in this thread, a kg of Cr picolinate is about $550. A pound of Cr sulfate is about $1.08. That’s a factor of about 250 vs a factor of, say, 20, giving a net cost factor of 12: Picolinate is 12 times more expensive than its inorganic equivalent. To reiterate the point: this could be justifiable for Cr Nic, but not for Cr Pic, it would seem. — Futilely Espousing God’s Word on Pre-Purchase Epiphany, Kristofer Hogg, ms rd, Who can’t safely boil water, much less cook! More inciteful ravings, but with a plumb, at http://www.holobarre.com Nice Bodies are, well, nice, but still largely irrelevant.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: > Cost: Maybe Walmart was having a sale! The point still remains that >no matter _what_ picolinate is being sold for, the chloride or sulfate >equivalents MUST be cheaper. You have to _make_ the picolinate moeity. >You pluck chloride from the ocean, or sulfate as an industrial >by-product (it should be _free_!). > It may not make any difference what it costs to make different forms of > chromium if the major cost factors are the bottle, labeling and distribution! > At $0.02 a capsule, the chromium is essentially free. You are mostly > paying for overhead that is the same regardless of the type of chromium. > When it comes to price gouging, look to things like CoQ10, Vanadyl Sulfate, > etc.. These things cost $50.00 a bottle, not $5.00. I just ordered $6,000+ of > micro-nutrients (a year’s supply) and most of my cost was in several large > chunks for some of the more exotic supplements. Things like vitamin C, > vitamin E or chromium are almost incidental to the total supplementation > cost. > Michael Lee Finney
Well, you could tryk www.kilosports.com: Chromium Picolinate 1 Kilo $549.95 for eg. Lifetime supply.
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>> Listen, Mr $300 Chinup Bar, > First, it’s not a chinup bar, it’s a HoloBarre.
It’s a movable chinup bar. It’s a still chinup bar. >Second, it’s less than >$300, although the price may go up soon. For you, it’s the >medical/surgical price: $550.
No, thank you, my gym memebership is far less per year. > you are telling a blatant lie. > What lie is this? That a pushup is but an upside bench press?
Yes. > OK, OK, I confess. They’re all lies–and conspiracies. Now will you >go away?
No. What do you say the pushup is again? Three-fourths of bodyweight? You refuse to attempt the simple experiment, comparing number of pushups to number of reps pressing the equivalent weight. Why? Huh, I wonder! You don’t sell benches or free weights… you sell chinup bars that can be adusted for various angles of pushups… Ignorance is more forgivable than intentionally misleading people. These newsgroups are here to give advice in good faith that we actually believe what we’re saying — not to soft-sell "fitness" products based on greatly overstated claims of their benefits. You maybe are fooling some people, but you’re not fooling most of us. Do the lab test and come back with the results. Anything else is just blowing smoke. — Who needs the power of lightning bolts if you control the COWS? –justin thiessen.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: > Cost: Maybe Walmart was having a sale! The point still remains that >no matter _what_ picolinate is being sold for, the chloride or sulfate >equivalents MUST be cheaper. You have to _make_ the picolinate moeity. >You pluck chloride from the ocean, or sulfate as an industrial >by-product (it should be _free_!). > It may not make any difference what it costs to make different forms of > chromium if the major cost factors are the bottle, labeling and distribution! > At $0.02 a capsule, the chromium is essentially free. You are mostly > paying for overhead that is the same regardless of the type of chromium. > When it comes to price gouging, look to things like CoQ10, Vanadyl Sulfate, > etc.. These things cost $50.00 a bottle, not $5.00. I just ordered $6,000+ of > micro-nutrients (a year’s supply) and most of my cost was in several large > chunks for some of the more exotic supplements. Things like vitamin C, > vitamin E or chromium are almost incidental to the total supplementation > cost. > Michael Lee Finney
The least expensive place for CoQ10 that I have found is COSTCO. They have 120, 30mg capsules for $15 and change. eldred
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > Chemistry is big bidniz, and no different from the Wiz: why sell model >> >A for nominal profit, when you can sell model B for big profit? Or >> >exercise: why let it be known that a pushup (free) is but an upside >> >down bench press (not free)?? >> Well well well. Did you finish your lab report for the little >> experiment we talked about? It’s been a while. > Oh, god… I cursed myself: Was it my fault?? Did I forget to trim >MFW off the header? Did I finally slip up?? No, I didn’t! But he >found me anyway!! > Just when you are down to your last penicillin tablet, and you pray >that that pesky syphilis is finally gone, damn, one last spirochete >bounces back… Back to the clinic I go…. > Someone remind me to rant on the analogy between perpetual motion, >steroids, and fools. >– > Fearing that indeed there will be nowhere to run, no place to hide… > Listen, Mr $300 Chinup Bar,
First, it’s not a chinup bar, it’s a HoloBarre. Second, it’s less than $300, although the price may go up soon. For you, it’s the medical/surgical price: $550. > you are telling a blatant lie.
What lie is this? That a pushup is but an upside bench press? That picolinate is a useless form of niacin? That absorbability is a deafeningly mute point? That sulfates are cheaper than picolinates? That you are likely just mad at me because I have rejected your continued advances toward me? That you are dumber than a brick, with the disposition of a swatted hornet? Be pacific. > It’s a lie suffocating under a thousand lines of mindless prattle
None of which you apparently understand–either the lines themselves, and certainly nothing between the lines. Maybe if you mouth the words…. Imagine, the likes of Whitman and his MFW ilk hurling the word "prattle"… Shards of glass should be raining down upon them. > but a lie just the same.
OK, OK, I confess. They’re all lies–and conspiracies. Now will you go away? What we had was nice, Greg, but it’s over, now… it’s over… — Whitman is actually kind of cute. But so was Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction… Kristofer Hogg, ms rd, Who can’t safely boil water, much less cook! More inciteful ravings, but with a plumb, at http://www.holobarre.com Nice Bodies are, well, nice, but still largely irrelevant.
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Folks, I can’t thank Greg Witless Whitman enough for the "free" plug. As you can see, he has a real bug up his ass, for a variety of reasons. In another post, I will explain the psychosis of spurned love…. Please move on, Greg… Get some therapy, and I promise, you’ll find someone…. But onward and forward to the issues at hand. > It’s a movable chinup bar. It’s a still chinup bar.
But because you are so stupid, Greg, you have no idea what this allows people to do. Perhaps not much for you and your farting cohorts on MFW, but then most people have better things to do than fart in a weightroom for 6 hours every evening. And gulp 500 grams of crap hydrolized protein each day. > For you, it’s the medical/surgical price: $550. > No, thank you, my gym memebership is far less per year.
And guess what: showers in a bath house are free. Check it out. You might find your soul mate, finally, and forget about me. >> you are telling a blatant lie. > What lie is this? That a pushup is but an upside bench press? > Yes. What do you say the pushup is again? Three-fourths of bodyweight?
No, Greg: 2/3 BW, which, if you knew how to read a goddammed bathroom scale, you could verify for yourself. Of course, with the vacuum you sustain in your head, a pushup for you would be 50% BW. Well, 55%, with all the extra bile… So, a 150 man (or boy, in your case), is supporting 100 # (or so) with his arms. Ipso facto. NOW: Is this equivalent to a 100# bench press? Depends on the bench: smith machine, free weights, nautilus, etc. I concede that most people say fewer reps of 100 # free weight will be possible. Depends on how skilled you are with the bp and related factors (too many subtle points for you, Greg). But this is secondary, and affects the issue nary a whit. So even if there is not one-to-one correspondence between # pushups and # bp reps, this is a second-order difference. And there are ways to make a pushup _harder_ if you want a perfect one-to-one correspondence. > You refuse to attempt the simple experiment, comparing number of > pushups to number of reps pressing the equivalent weight. Why? > Huh, I wonder! You don’t sell benches or free weights… you sell > chinup bars that can be adusted for various angles of pushups…
And so much more, Greg. But I am impressed that you were able to grok that much! Or did you have help? But, only a moron would have to "conduct" such an experiment. Only a moron would have to throw raw eggs off a roof to see if they will break on the ground. True–I don’t sell benches or free weights. Nor do I sell Heavy Hands, rowing machines, vitamins, chromium picolinate, or anything else. Yet I post extensively on these and a wide variety of techniques. I _never_ hawk my stuff! Never… unless the rare occasion such as this arises. I _do_ extoll the principles upon which my stuff is based, which is why I _built_ my stuff!! What have you built, Greg, besides a few sand castles with your muscle-bound cohorts? So often, when people unsolicitedly try to tear down others’ creations, it is because they themselves have nothing substantial to offer. When I _do_ talk about HoloBarre-type exercises, I never do it in the context of the HoloBarre. I talk about hanging from straps from a doorway, the Hangups Inversion table, improvised cross bars, inclined pushups on couches and dressers, isometrics, calculations, theories, diet techniques, science issues, etc. Check dejanews. I do hope that the inherent quality of my posts (Can you see Greg gagging on a spoon right here) is my own best advertisement. This is totally in the "Spirit of Giving on the Web". You choose to interpret things like the little bitch that you are (sorry folks). What can I do? You are a few courses shy of finally graduating college, and you STILL can’t see the relationship between a pushup and a bench press! Something real bad must have happened to you as a child… Either mommy refused to breast feed you, or she breast fed you ’til you were 15 or 16… or something traumatic… And that is the problem with health and fitness: Anal retentives like you leave those searching for answers–and relationships among facts– in a tailspin. Not because you are so stupid, which you are, but because you are without basic integrity. Your emotional hidden agendas make you dangerous. I have been wrong on a few occasions. Ask Gerwin and DeLuca. But rarely totally wrong. And the issue is for _everyone_ to come away with better understandings, which sometimes come from making errors in public. Now this is a futile process for you, apparently, but you shouldn’t squash the process for others. You, and mis-prioritized brats like you, are still looking for ways to define your abs better, and for more absorbable proteins. Good grief! > Ignorance is more forgivable than intentionally misleading people.
You are so evolved…… > These newsgroups are here to give advice in good faith that we > actually believe what we’re saying — not to soft-sell "fitness" > products
Your self-serving interpretation. Not only are you stupid, Greg, your paranoia compells you to condemn that which you don’t understand. You are too small of a person to bury the hatchet. You would rather fight dirty. Long nails do sort of become you, tho…. > based on greatly overstated claims of their benefits.
I rarely claim benefits: I endorse techniques based on physical principles. Which is why chiropractors, physical therapists, dance studios, and some prestigious back-care chains are or will be carrying my stuff. I wonder why… they must all be ripoffs, too! > You maybe are fooling some people, but you’re not fooling most > of us. Do the lab test and come back with the results. Anything else > is just blowing smoke.
You do the test, Greg. And, while you’re at it, throw raw eggs off the roof of your hovel just to make sure they will break. Everyone else reading this: do a pushup on a bathroom scale, and draw your own conclusions–no need to do the whole pushup. Then, put your feet up on a chair, and do the pushup again. See what the scale says. Don’t let Greg fool you–this really is easy! Not for him, of course, but easy for 99.9% of the public. But Greg is right in one respect: If you are so philistinic as to think huge muscles, ripped abs, and protein intake is the be-all and end-all to health and beauty, then my ideas are indeed useless. But if you can _think_ a little, and enjoy _relationships_ among ideas, a whole ‘nother world opens up. BTW, the fact that Whitman hates the HoloBarre so much is, to me, prima facie evidence to buy one right away!! — Futilely Espousing God’s Word on Pre-Purchase Epiphany, especially to the Whitman’s of the world… Kristofer Hogg, ms rd, Who can’t safely boil water, much less cook! More inciteful ravings, but with a plumb, at http://www.holobarre.com Nice Bodies are, well, nice, but still largely irrelevant.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Chemistry is big bidniz, and no different from the Wiz: why sell model > >A for nominal profit, when you can sell model B for big profit? Or > >exercise: why let it be known that a pushup (free) is but an upside > >down bench press (not free)?? > Well well well. Did you finish your lab report for the little > experiment we talked about? It’s been a while. > Oh, god… I cursed myself: Was it my fault?? Did I forget to trim >MFW off the header? Did I finally slip up?? No, I didn’t! But he >found me anyway!! > Just when you are down to your last penicillin tablet, and you pray >that that pesky syphilis is finally gone, damn, one last spirochete >bounces back… Back to the clinic I go…. > Someone remind me to rant on the analogy between perpetual motion, >steroids, and fools. >– > Fearing that indeed there will be nowhere to run, no place to hide…
Listen, Mr $300 Chinup Bar, you are telling a blatant lie. It’s a lie suffocating under a thousand lines of mindless prattle, but a lie just the same. — Who needs the power of lightning bolts if you control the COWS? –justin thiessen.
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> > Chemistry is big bidniz, and no different from the Wiz: why sell model >A for nominal profit, when you can sell model B for big profit? Or >exercise: why let it be known that a pushup (free) is but an upside >down bench press (not free)?? > Well well well. Did you finish your lab report for the little > experiment we talked about? It’s been a while. > — > Who needs the power of lightning bolts if you control the COWS? > –justin thiessen.
Oh, god… I cursed myself: Was it my fault?? Did I forget to trim MFW off the header? Did I finally slip up?? No, I didn’t! But he found me anyway!! Just when you are down to your last penicillin tablet, and you pray that that pesky syphilis is finally gone, damn, one last spirochete bounces back… Back to the clinic I go…. Someone remind me to rant on the analogy between perpetual motion, steroids, and fools. — Fearing that indeed there will be nowhere to run, no place to hide… Kristofer Hogg, ms rd, Who can’t safely boil water, much less cook! More inciteful ravings, but with a plumb, at http://www.holobarre.com Nice Bodies are, well, nice, but still largely irrelevant.
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> Cost: Maybe Walmart was having a sale! The point still remains that >no matter _what_ picolinate is being sold for, the chloride or sulfate >equivalents MUST be cheaper. You have to _make_ the picolinate moeity. >You pluck chloride from the ocean, or sulfate as an industrial >by-product (it should be _free_!).
It may not make any difference what it costs to make different forms of chromium if the major cost factors are the bottle, labeling and distribution! At $0.02 a capsule, the chromium is essentially free. You are mostly paying for overhead that is the same regardless of the type of chromium. When it comes to price gouging, look to things like CoQ10, Vanadyl Sulfate, etc.. These things cost $50.00 a bottle, not $5.00. I just ordered $6,000+ of micro-nutrients (a year’s supply) and most of my cost was in several large chunks for some of the more exotic supplements. Things like vitamin C, vitamin E or chromium are almost incidental to the total supplementation cost. Michael Lee Finney
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> Chemistry is big bidniz, and no different from the Wiz: why sell model >A for nominal profit, when you can sell model B for big profit? Or >exercise: why let it be known that a pushup (free) is but an upside >down bench press (not free)??
Well well well. Did you finish your lab report for the little experiment we talked about? It’s been a while. — Who needs the power of lightning bolts if you control the COWS? –justin thiessen.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> my 2 cents is that if I take 200mcg for more > than a couple of months my tongue gets tingly > metallic taste. I go off of it and it > disappears and then I resume and it comes back > after a while. I think there is some > accumulation happening here. > What form of chromium is this? If it is > the picolinate, it might not be the chromium at > all. Also, 200mcg is not a lot: it is still > within the RDA guidelines!! Which almost by > definition makes it low, as the underlying > philosophy behind the RDA is a sort of minimalism. > Non-minimalist in the sense that it is adjusted > to include 99% of the population, but minimalist > in the sense that this 99% is merely without _clinical_ > signs of deficiency. Which sort of means no _obvious_ > signs of illness!
But presumably Kevin is ingesting things other than his chromium pill. RDA isn’t about pills, it’s about total intake. Maybe he’s drinking a lot of beer or whatever. So then the pill just pops his total intake above a certain threshold. But there’s probably a better explanation. [....] > Chemistry is big bidniz, and no > different from the Wiz: why sell model A for > nominal profit, when you can sell model B for > big profit? Or exercise: why let it be known > that a pushup (free) is but an upside down bench > press (not free)??
Nice analogy! Best, Brian. — Brian Manning Delaney SANCTUS JANUARIUS. For the new year. — I still live, I still think: I still have to live, for I still have to think. Sum, ergo cogito: cogito, ergo sum. -Nietzsche.
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my 2 cents is that if I take 200mcg for more than a couple of months my tongue gets tingly metallic taste. I go off of it and it disappears and then I resume and it comes back after a while. I think there is some accumulation happening here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I’m curious what thoughtful readers think about the following quote from a > > study that said supplementing with chromium is dangerous: > > "Dr. Stearns predicts that after 5 years of swallowing a daily > > dose of 600 mcg of chromium picolinate, the amount recommended on > > supplement packages, chromium would accumulate in the body to the > > level that caused damage in her study." > > Does anyone know if chromium "accumulates" in our bodies? It seems to me > > that it wouldn’t be to hard to find out, if no one has done so already.
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> my 2 cents is that if I take 200mcg for more than a couple > of months my tongue gets tingly metallic taste. I go > off of it and it disappears and then I resume and it comes > back after a while. I think there is some accumulation happening here.
What form of chromium is this? If it is the picolinate, it might not be the chromium at all. Also, 200mcg is not a lot: it is still within the RDA guidelines!! Which almost by definition makes it low, as the underlying philosophy behind the RDA is a sort of minimalism. Non-minimalist in the sense that it is adjusted to include 99% of the population, but minimalist in the sense that this 99% is merely without _clinical_ signs of deficiency. Which sort of means no _obvious_ signs of illness! Regarding Bryan’s comment on effect of mega doses and excretion: You could say the same about Vit C. The fact that C is excreted above X amount does not mean that amounts above this level are without effect. Plus, we all know about "claimed" or apparent results. I don’t know about you, but I have been fooled by my own eyes/brain many times. So were the Stanford Scientists by Uri Geller, until the Amazaing Randy came along. Maybe Randy should go into nutrition! I interpret "accumulation" in the sense of iron, copper, or Vit A, where the method and locale of storage–and damage–is well-known. Chromium, so far, does not exhibit these properties. Which is sort of interesting, as chromium is, I believe, the only trivalent metal in our bodies–FWIIW. Which is not to say chromium does not accumulate. But it don’t accumulate the way other things accumulate, it seems, as per the hefty amounts given to rats. Howzat for le Grand Hedge?? Cost: Maybe Walmart was having a sale! The point still remains that no matter _what_ picolinate is being sold for, the chloride or sulfate equivalents MUST be cheaper. You have to _make_ the picolinate moeity. You pluck chloride from the ocean, or sulfate as an industrial by-product (it should be _free_!). And I think many overlooked the main point: Why use picolinate AT ALL, when it is a SYNTHETIC (I believe) isomer of NIACIN?? What, Niacin is not good enough for us anymore? Is it passe? Oh, I forgot: niacin is hip only when you take a pound of it to "lower cholesterol". Or as a sexual aid…. Chemistry is big bidniz, and no different from the Wiz: why sell model A for nominal profit, when you can sell model B for big profit? Or exercise: why let it be known that a pushup (free) is but an upside down bench press (not free)?? — Futilely Espousing God’s Word on Pre-Purchase Epiphany, Kristofer Hogg, ms rd, Who can’t safely boil water, much less cook! More inciteful ravings, but with a plumb, at http://www.holobarre.com Nice Bodies are, well, nice, but still largely irrelevant. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > I’m curious what thoughtful readers think about the following quote from a > > > study that said supplementing with chromium is dangerous: > > > "Dr. Stearns predicts that after 5 years of swallowing a daily > > > dose of 600 mcg of chromium picolinate, the amount recommended on > > > supplement packages, chromium would accumulate in the body to the > > > level that caused damage in her study." > > > Does anyone know if chromium "accumulates" in our bodies? It seems to me > > > that it wouldn’t be to hard to find out, if no one has done so already.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m curious what thoughtful readers think about the following quote from a > study that said supplementing with chromium is dangerous: > "Dr. Stearns predicts that after 5 years of swallowing a daily > dose of 600 mcg of chromium picolinate, the amount recommended on > supplement packages, chromium would accumulate in the body to the > level that caused damage in her study." > Does anyone know if chromium "accumulates" in our bodies? It seems to me > that it wouldn’t be to hard to find out, if no one has done so already. > Thanks, > Kingsley >This is my biggest worry too, so would also like to hear other views. It has >always been one of those "suspicious" alternatives. Possibly, but not >necessarily because of it connection with diabetis. My son-in-law suffers >from hereditary diabetes in perhaps its worst form. He was born with it and >many other problems, including legal blindness after his mother contracted >german measels, a disorder that can cause havoc in the foetus. If it goes >fullterm or close, and survives, multiple probs are more or less the rule. >Mood swings with fluctuating glycaemia can be pretty hard to deal with, and I >think Chromium might be of benefit, but still have some reservations, because >his physical and psychic balances are really out of whack, and he’s not >likely to much about it– unless I lay down the law. He’s intimidated by his >mo-in-law, so sometimes does what I tell him out of sheer funk, then moans >with some justification about mo- in-laws who are always getting at him. >Comments and suggestions gratefully received.
It _is_ easy to worry about giving high doses of isolated nutrients to young and nonconsenting children. Maybe a better alternative would be brewer’s yeast. The chromium in there is likely accompanied by other nutrients that the body may need to handle it safely. It is pretty allergenic though, so maybe rotating it with other natural chromium sources (like…?), e.g. yeast every second or third day. > pax silverfern > — > If email to me bounces, make sure you deleted the D from the end of my > username in my email address.
Syd http://www.escape.ca/~sgb Natural health & medicine: articles and book excerpts by Syd Baumel on depression, serotonin, and other subjects. Also record reviews. in association with Amazon.com
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m curious what thoughtful readers think about the following quote from a > study that said supplementing with chromium is dangerous: > "Dr. Stearns predicts that after 5 years of swallowing a daily > dose of 600 mcg of chromium picolinate, the amount recommended on > supplement packages, chromium would accumulate in the body to the > level that caused damage in her study." > Does anyone know if chromium "accumulates" in our bodies? It seems to me > that it wouldn’t be to hard to find out, if no one has done so already. > It does not, according to the RDA peeple, and believe me they are ready > to shoot supplements down in a heartbeat. Chromium, proportionally, is > one of the _least_ toxic minerals, for two reason: absorption is > apparently regulated, and excess is excreted in the urine. > The problem is likely in the goddammed picolinate, and here is my 2c on > that: Picolinate is a bastardized form of: NIACIN!! Niacin-complexed > chromium is often how chromium is found in nature, and therefore is not > patentable (I think–seems anything is patentable, but anyway..) But, > chromium picolinate IS patented (I think). So guess what? It is hawked > mercilessly, esp on AM radio, even 1010 WINS, which has boucou expensive > air time. And probably it is unmetabolizable, given that mommy nature > went to significant pains to make Niacin specifically the meta > isomer–picolinate is the ortho. An article about picolinate appeared > in a newsgroup, casting suspicions on the picolinate itself. I might be > able to dig it up, if anyone is dying for it. > The RDA points out that the "pseudo-RDA" for Cr is 50-200 mcg. Yet > rats subjected to 5 milligrams/liter for their lifetime showed no > ill-effect. Ditto rats subjected to 100 milligrams/kg (not clear if > this is food or BW). That is a lot of chromium, dudes. Since what is > good enough for a rat is apparently good enough for us…. > Hexavalent Cr (we eat trivalent) is carcinogenic. Don’t work in an > industrial chromium plant. > A little FYI: Chromium, as in bumpers, was one of the first > break-through industrial hardeners for cutting tools in lathes, etc. > Your Sears (as in Roebuck) drill will in fact not penetrate a chromed > bumper, because it is so hard; the plating must chip off first. Cr, in > very small amounts, is what makes steel stainless–and very hard. > Buy the cheapest Cr you can find–but not from a car bumper, please. > In my experience, every exotic form of a basic nutrient, whether it is > Cr picolinate or Ester C, or crystallized Vit C, is a ripoff, one way or > the other. I’m starting to view Burger King Whoppers as refreshingly > honest… And they really do have more beef than McDs. > — > Thinking about bronzing my first Nike’s and chroming my first > condom (yes, I still have it)… > Kristofer Hogg, ms rd, Who can’t safely boil water, much less cook! > More inciteful ravings, but with a plumb, at http://www.holobarre.com > Nice Bodies are, well, nice, but still largely irrelevant. > Thanks, > Kingsley > — > If email to me bounces, make sure you deleted the D from the end of my > username in my email address.
I’m not sure what you call a ripoff. I have purchased 200 mcg of CrP from Costco for $.02 per tablet (along with over 300mg of calcium carbonate), and Wal-Mart sells the plain CrP for about $.03 per tablet. eldred
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:> Does anyone know if chromium "accumulates" in our bodies? It seems to me :> that it wouldn’t be to hard to find out, if no one has done so already. : It does not, according to the RDA peeple, and believe me they are ready : to shoot supplements down in a heartbeat. Chromium, proportionally, is : one of the _least_ toxic minerals, for two reason: absorption is : apparently regulated, and excess is excreted in the urine. Oh? So how do you explain Kingsley’s claimed success with huge doses? Bryan
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> I’m curious what thoughtful readers think about the following quote from a > study that said supplementing with chromium is dangerous: > "Dr. Stearns predicts that after 5 years of swallowing a daily > dose of 600 mcg of chromium picolinate, the amount recommended on > supplement packages, chromium would accumulate in the body to the > level that caused damage in her study." > Does anyone know if chromium "accumulates" in our bodies? It seems to me > that it wouldn’t be to hard to find out, if no one has done so already.
It does not, according to the RDA peeple, and believe me they are ready to shoot supplements down in a heartbeat. Chromium, proportionally, is one of the _least_ toxic minerals, for two reason: absorption is apparently regulated, and excess is excreted in the urine. The problem is likely in the goddammed picolinate, and here is my 2c on that: Picolinate is a bastardized form of: NIACIN!! Niacin-complexed chromium is often how chromium is found in nature, and therefore is not patentable (I think–seems anything is patentable, but anyway..) But, chromium picolinate IS patented (I think). So guess what? It is hawked mercilessly, esp on AM radio, even 1010 WINS, which has boucou expensive air time. And probably it is unmetabolizable, given that mommy nature went to significant pains to make Niacin specifically the meta isomer–picolinate is the ortho. An article about picolinate appeared in a newsgroup, casting suspicions on the picolinate itself. I might be able to dig it up, if anyone is dying for it. The RDA points out that the "pseudo-RDA" for Cr is 50-200 mcg. Yet rats subjected to 5 milligrams/liter for their lifetime showed no ill-effect. Ditto rats subjected to 100 milligrams/kg (not clear if this is food or BW). That is a lot of chromium, dudes. Since what is good enough for a rat is apparently good enough for us…. Hexavalent Cr (we eat trivalent) is carcinogenic. Don’t work in an industrial chromium plant. A little FYI: Chromium, as in bumpers, was one of the first break-through industrial hardeners for cutting tools in lathes, etc. Your Sears (as in Roebuck) drill will in fact not penetrate a chromed bumper, because it is so hard; the plating must chip off first. Cr, in very small amounts, is what makes steel stainless–and very hard. Buy the cheapest Cr you can find–but not from a car bumper, please. In my experience, every exotic form of a basic nutrient, whether it is Cr picolinate or Ester C, or crystallized Vit C, is a ripoff, one way or the other. I’m starting to view Burger King Whoppers as refreshingly honest… And they really do have more beef than McDs. — Thinking about bronzing my first Nike’s and chroming my first condom (yes, I still have it)… Kristofer Hogg, ms rd, Who can’t safely boil water, much less cook! More inciteful ravings, but with a plumb, at http://www.holobarre.com Nice Bodies are, well, nice, but still largely irrelevant. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks, > Kingsley > — > If email to me bounces, make sure you deleted the D from the end of my > username in my email address.
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>I’m curious what thoughtful readers think about the following quote from a >study that said supplementing with chromium is dangerous: > "Dr. Stearns predicts that after 5 years of swallowing a daily > dose of 600 mcg of chromium picolinate, the amount recommended on > supplement packages, chromium would accumulate in the body to the > level that caused damage in her study." >Does anyone know if chromium "accumulates" in our bodies? It seems to me >that it wouldn’t be to hard to find out, if no one has done so already.
I have been taking 500-1000mcg of chromium picolinate per meal for around 15 years. I started when I learned that chromium helps to control blool sugar levels. After eating some meals, especially lunch, I would have after-meal sleepiness that bordered on coma. It was not actual coma, but nothing I did could keep me from at least a short nap of 15 or 20 minutes, after which I felt quite refreshed. I started taking chromium to alleviate the problem (most employers don’t like you sleeping on the job), and increased the dosage until I noticed a difference. The dosage that appeared to work was in the 600 to 800mcg a meal. Taking less caused an immediate return of the problem. After years of taking that dosage, I have found that I now can reduce the levels of chromium without having a severe problem. I may still get post prandial narcolepsy, but it is much more normal and reasonably controlable, and may not occur at all. I suspect that I was severely deficient, but I still take 500 to 1000 mcg per meal as a rule (normally I eat one or two meals a day — yes, yes, I know that is a bad idea and we are working on changing that). I have not noticed any explict problems with my health. There could be some accumluated toxicity problems, but if so they have not manifested in any way. If there is an accumulation problem, then I would definitely like more information. I do supplement with many other things as well, including life extension mix, the Alacer vitamin C (which includes magnesium and calcium as ascorbates), CoQ-10, etc.. It could be that the additional supplementation hides or corrects the problems caused by excessive chromium. Michael Lee Finney
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m curious what thoughtful readers think about the following quote from a > study that said supplementing with chromium is dangerous: > "Dr. Stearns predicts that after 5 years of swallowing a daily > dose of 600 mcg of chromium picolinate, the amount recommended on > supplement packages, chromium would accumulate in the body to the > level that caused damage in her study." > Does anyone know if chromium "accumulates" in our bodies? It seems to me > that it wouldn’t be to hard to find out, if no one has done so already. > Thanks, > Kingsley > — > If email to me bounces, make sure you deleted the D from the end of my > username in my email address.
Unquestionably, chromium, as with other minerals, can be toxic if too much is taken. It also is genetically sensitive so whereas most people can stay with 600 mcg of chromium, others cannot. One of the other problems is that taking one mineral without taking into consideration the interplay of other nutrients, especially minerals, is foolish. Just as you wouldn’t put more gas in your car to make it run better (although some is necessary), don’t put too much of any one element into your body. Hope this helps. Mark Schauss Interesting web site to check out regarding minerals is http://www.kt-solutions.com
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> I’m curious what thoughtful readers think about the following quote > from a study that said supplementing with chromium is dangerous: > "Dr. Stearns predicts that after 5 years of swallowing a daily > dose of 600 mcg of chromium picolinate, the amount recommended on > supplement packages, chromium would accumulate in the body to the > level that caused damage in her study." > Does anyone know if chromium "accumulates" in our bodies? It seems > to me that it wouldn’t be to hard to find out, if no one has done > so already. Thanks, Kingsley
– I can’t comment on chromium picolinate (which may well have an adverse impact on the body), but I have been monitoring the effects of supplementing *chelated* chromium with patients since the mid-80’s, when it first became available in my area. Some of my patients have taken close to 2000mcg per day for more than 5 years at a time with only positive results, even though a need for such a high amount was established before they started taking it. Chromium does indeed accumulate in the body just like calcium, copper, magnesium, or fluoride, but even at above-normal levels, it has shown to have mostly beneficial effects, particularly in respect to bone density and chronic inflammatory conditions – with some exceptions: If you take high amounts of chromium for long periods of time, you have to watch its effect on other minerals, particularly potassium, copper, selenium and vanadium, which will be lowered. Chromium will also eventually change your Ca/Mg ratio by increasing magnesium and lowering Calcium. Rutin (a bioflavonoid) may have to be supplemented since elevated chromium will interfere with its absorption. Very high levels of chromium and copper are found with some types of joint and spinal degeneration, including ankylosing spondylitis. Chromium should be used with caution in certain immuno-compromised situations involving the lymphatic system, but may be helpful in some cases involving abnormal immune response and related inflammatory disorders. The above is not quoted from any published sources, but represents personal clinical observations on chelated chromium. — * Ron Roth
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m curious what thoughtful readers think about the following quote from a > study that said supplementing with chromium is dangerous: > "Dr. Stearns predicts that after 5 years of swallowing a daily > dose of 600 mcg of chromium picolinate, the amount recommended on > supplement packages, chromium would accumulate in the body to the > level that caused damage in her study." > Does anyone know if chromium "accumulates" in our bodies? It seems to me > that it wouldn’t be to hard to find out, if no one has done so already. > Thanks, > Kingsley > — > If email to me bounces, make sure you deleted the D from the end of my > username in my email address.
You might want to go to: http://www.chromium.edu/index.html They report on several studies that investigated chromium picolinate for diabetes control. They also address toxicity. eldred
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> I’m curious what thoughtful readers think about the following quote from a > study that said supplementing with chromium is dangerous: > "Dr. Stearns predicts that after 5 years of swallowing a daily > dose of 600 mcg of chromium picolinate, the amount recommended on > supplement packages, chromium would accumulate in the body to the > level that caused damage in her study." > Does anyone know if chromium "accumulates" in our bodies? It seems to me > that it wouldn’t be to hard to find out, if no one has done so already. > Thanks, > Kingsley
This is my biggest worry too, so would also like to hear other views. It has always been one of those "suspicious" alternatives. Possibly, but not necessarily because of it connection with diabetis. My son-in-law suffers from hereditary diabetes in perhaps its worst form. He was born with it and many other problems, including legal blindness after his mother contracted german measels, a disorder that can cause havoc in the foetus. If it goes fullterm or close, and survives, multiple probs are more or less the rule. Mood swings with fluctuating glycaemia can be pretty hard to deal with, and I think Chromium might be of benefit, but still have some reservations, because his physical and psychic balances are really out of whack, and he’s not likely to much about it– unless I lay down the law. He’s intimidated by his mo-in-law, so sometimes does what I tell him out of sheer funk, then moans with some justification about mo- in-laws who are always getting at him. Comments and suggestions gratefully received. pax silverfern > — > If email to me bounces, make sure you deleted the D from the end of my > username in my email address.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m curious what thoughtful readers think about > the following quote from a study that said > supplementing with chromium is dangerous: > "Dr. Stearns predicts that after 5 years > of swallowing a daily dose of 600 mcg of > chromium picolinate, the amount recommended > on supplement packages, chromium would > accumulate in the body to the level that > caused damage in her study." > Does anyone know if chromium "accumulates" in > our bodies? It seems to me that it wouldn’t be > to hard to find out, if no one has done so > already. > You might want to go to: > http://www.chromium.edu/index.html > They report on several studies that investigated > chromium picolinate for diabetes control. They > also address toxicity.
Eldred, Thanks for the tip. There is some useful information on that Web site. I don’t think, however, that it’s likely to be a highly reliable place to go for information on the possible risks of taking chromium –> http://rs.internic.net/cgi-bin/whois?chromium.edu = (more or less) http://rs.internic.net/cgi-bin/whois?nutrition21.com Nutrition21 sells chromium. Doesn’t necessarily mean they’d lie about it. But still, likely more reliable would be: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ Best, Brian. — Brian Manning Delaney SANCTUS JANUARIUS. For the new year. — I still live, I still think: I still have to live, for I still have to think. Sum, ergo cogito: cogito, ergo sum. -Nietzsche.
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I’m curious what thoughtful readers think about the following quote from a study that said supplementing with chromium is dangerous: "Dr. Stearns predicts that after 5 years of swallowing a daily dose of 600 mcg of chromium picolinate, the amount recommended on supplement packages, chromium would accumulate in the body to the level that caused damage in her study." Does anyone know if chromium "accumulates" in our bodies? It seems to me that it wouldn’t be to hard to find out, if no one has done so already. Thanks, Kingsley — If email to me bounces, make sure you deleted the D from the end of my username in my email address.
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