Question:

>The trip from the factory ain’t the same as a cross-town ride in a van. Lots >of repeated shock loads in railcar or semi, lots of careless box-kickers in >warehouse, etc. A careful loading in a van using a furniture dolley as a >gurney, and a careful drive across town, is unlikely to break anything not >already broken.

Loaded in the van and resting on its side, not upright? Steve

Response:

> The transporting issue is one part of my decision factors in trying to > figure out what washer to buy.  I am leaning toward the low end > "Frigemore" front loader ($600) and places like Home Depot will > deliver for $35.  

You should never transport the "Frigemore" without installing the braces. > Or I can select from many used top loaders for sale on craigslist.com > (a local bulletin board for the SF Bay Area).   The prices are usually > very reasonable for a top loader.  Front loaders on craigslist are far

I transported my top loaders all over the country (upright in a truck) without an issue. They tend to be more forgiving than front loaders. > Instead it’s probably better to pay the extra hundreds of dollars for > a new front loader and have it delivered.

Well, if you can get a top loader for $50, if it works, great, if it doesn’t, then you get to pay someone else to haul it off for $50. What kind of van do you have that is not tall enough to haul a top loader upright? They’re only 4 feet tall, after all. — BadTux: Linux Penguin Gone Bad   http://badtux.org —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

I am considering buying a used washing machine.  I would transport the machine myself in a Chevy van.  But I don’t think I can fit the washer in to it upright.  I would have to place it on its side.   Is that a problem for a top loader or front loader? k r a u s t e r a t a t t b i d o t c o m

Response:

> I am considering buying a used washing machine.  I would transport the > machine myself in a Chevy van.  But I don’t think I can fit the washer > in to it upright.  I would have to place it on its side.   Is that a > problem for a top loader or front loader? > k r a u s t e r a t a t t b i d o t c o m

no, just make sure you put it down easy so you dont put too much force on it moving it sideways and have something break in it…..

Response:

>> I am considering buying a used washing machine.  I would transport the > machine myself in a Chevy van.  But I don’t think I can fit the washer > in to it upright.  I would have to place it on its side.   Is that a > problem for a top loader or front loader?

>no, just make sure you put it down easy so you dont put too much force >on it moving it sideways and have something break in it…..

I disagree, it can be a problem on some top load models and a big problem on many front load models. When shipped from the factory there are shipping braces installed, it would be best to reinstall them before attempting to move it, especially on its side. If you can’t, be sure to post the brand name and model of the washer when you post again asking for help trying to correct it after a move. Dan O. – Appliance411.com http://ng.Appliance411.com/?ref411=move+washer =

Question:

Hello All. My cat Simba (3 year old spayed female, adopted when feral kitten) loves to lick bath soap.  Whenever I go to use the toilet, she will follow me in, jump up on the sink vanity and commence to licking the bar soap in the soap dish.  What’s with this?  She really seems to enjoy it, and it doesn’t seem to have any adverse effects.  Is she trying to tell me to make sure I wipe or wash my hands afterwards :>)! (Just kidding of course!)  Seriously, if anyone has any ideas, I would really like to know.  Thanks.  Shyra.

Response:

>Whenever I go to use the toilet, she will follow me in, >jump up on the sink vanity and commence to licking the bar soap in the soap >dish.  What’s with this?  

Some soaps contain lard, an animal by-product, that can be attractive to cats. Be careful about letting her lick soap, as it can contain things like deodorizers and other chemicals.   Lauren =^..^= See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043 To Error is Human, To be Purrfect is Feline

Response:

I don’t know the whys & wherefores, but my first cat was also a soap freak. Virtually very day she’d jump up onto the bathroom sink, & reach up to lick the (built into the wall sort of) soap tray. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello All. > My cat Simba (3 year old spayed female, adopted when feral kitten) loves to > lick bath soap.  Whenever I go to use the toilet, she will follow me in, > jump up on the sink vanity and commence to licking the bar soap in the soap > dish.  What’s with this?  She really seems to enjoy it, and it doesn’t seem > to have any adverse effects.  Is she trying to tell me to make sure I wipe > or wash my hands afterwards :>)! (Just kidding of course!)  Seriously, if > anyone has any ideas, I would really like to know.  Thanks.  Shyra.

Response:

He has expensive tastes! *grin* Tara

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My cat does the same thing.  He licks my bar of Clinique soap.  I have yet > to figure out why he does this but it doesn’t seem to hurt him at all. > Sue > Hello All. > My cat Simba (3 year old spayed female, adopted when feral kitten) loves > to > lick bath soap.  Whenever I go to use the toilet, she will follow me in, > jump up on the sink vanity and commence to licking the bar soap in the > soap > dish.  What’s with this?  She really seems to enjoy it, and it doesn’t > seem > to have any adverse effects.  Is she trying to tell me to make sure I wipe > or wash my hands afterwards :>)! (Just kidding of course!)  Seriously, if > anyone has any ideas, I would really like to know.  Thanks.  Shyra.

Response:

My cat does the same thing.  He licks my bar of Clinique soap.  I have yet to figure out why he does this but it doesn’t seem to hurt him at all. Sue

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello All. > My cat Simba (3 year old spayed female, adopted when feral kitten) loves to > lick bath soap.  Whenever I go to use the toilet, she will follow me in, > jump up on the sink vanity and commence to licking the bar soap in the soap > dish.  What’s with this?  She really seems to enjoy it, and it doesn’t seem > to have any adverse effects.  Is she trying to tell me to make sure I wipe > or wash my hands afterwards :>)! (Just kidding of course!)  Seriously, if > anyone has any ideas, I would really like to know.  Thanks.  Shyra.

Response:

Hello All. My cat Simba (3 year old spayed female, adopted when feral kitten) loves to lick bath soap.  Whenever I go to use the toilet, she will follow me in, jump up on the sink vanity and commence to licking the bar soap in the soap dish.  What’s with this?  She really seems to enjoy it, and it doesn’t seem to have any adverse effects.  Is she trying to tell me to make sure I wipe or wash my hands afterwards :>)! (Just kidding of course!)  Seriously, if anyone has any ideas, I would really like to know.  Thanks.  Shyra.

Response:

>Whenever I go to use the toilet, she will follow me in, >jump up on the sink vanity and commence to licking the bar soap in the soap >dish.  What’s with this?  

Some soaps contain lard, an animal by-product, that can be attractive to cats. Be careful about letting her lick soap, as it can contain things like deodorizers and other chemicals.   Lauren =^..^= See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043 To Error is Human, To be Purrfect is Feline

Response:

I don’t know the whys & wherefores, but my first cat was also a soap freak. Virtually very day she’d jump up onto the bathroom sink, & reach up to lick the (built into the wall sort of) soap tray. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello All. > My cat Simba (3 year old spayed female, adopted when feral kitten) loves to > lick bath soap.  Whenever I go to use the toilet, she will follow me in, > jump up on the sink vanity and commence to licking the bar soap in the soap > dish.  What’s with this?  She really seems to enjoy it, and it doesn’t seem > to have any adverse effects.  Is she trying to tell me to make sure I wipe > or wash my hands afterwards :>)! (Just kidding of course!)  Seriously, if > anyone has any ideas, I would really like to know.  Thanks.  Shyra.

Response:

He has expensive tastes! *grin* Tara

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My cat does the same thing.  He licks my bar of Clinique soap.  I have yet > to figure out why he does this but it doesn’t seem to hurt him at all. > Sue > Hello All. > My cat Simba (3 year old spayed female, adopted when feral kitten) loves > to > lick bath soap.  Whenever I go to use the toilet, she will follow me in, > jump up on the sink vanity and commence to licking the bar soap in the > soap > dish.  What’s with this?  She really seems to enjoy it, and it doesn’t > seem > to have any adverse effects.  Is she trying to tell me to make sure I wipe > or wash my hands afterwards :>)! (Just kidding of course!)  Seriously, if > anyone has any ideas, I would really like to know.  Thanks.  Shyra.

Response:

My cat does the same thing.  He licks my bar of Clinique soap.  I have yet to figure out why he does this but it doesn’t seem to hurt him at all. Sue

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello All. > My cat Simba (3 year old spayed female, adopted when feral kitten) loves to > lick bath soap.  Whenever I go to use the toilet, she will follow me in, > jump up on the sink vanity and commence to licking the bar soap in the soap > dish.  What’s with this?  She really seems to enjoy it, and it doesn’t seem > to have any adverse effects.  Is she trying to tell me to make sure I wipe > or wash my hands afterwards :>)! (Just kidding of course!)  Seriously, if > anyone has any ideas, I would really like to know.  Thanks.  Shyra.

Response:

Hello All. My cat Simba (3 year old spayed female, adopted when feral kitten) loves to lick bath soap.  Whenever I go to use the toilet, she will follow me in, jump up on the sink vanity and commence to licking the bar soap in the soap dish.  What’s with this?  She really seems to enjoy it, and it doesn’t seem to have any adverse effects.  Is she trying to tell me to make sure I wipe or wash my hands afterwards :>)! (Just kidding of course!)  Seriously, if anyone has any ideas, I would really like to know.  Thanks.  Shyra.

Response:

>Whenever I go to use the toilet, she will follow me in, >jump up on the sink vanity and commence to licking the bar soap in the soap >dish.  What’s with this?  

Some soaps contain lard, an animal by-product, that can be attractive to cats. Be careful about letting her lick soap, as it can contain things like deodorizers and other chemicals.   Lauren =^..^= See my cats:   http://www.picturetrail.com/mickey4paws/703043 To Error is Human, To be Purrfect is Feline

Response:

I don’t know the whys & wherefores, but my first cat was also a soap freak. Virtually very day she’d jump up onto the bathroom sink, & reach up to lick the (built into the wall sort of) soap tray. Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble")  Paul Simon

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello All. > My cat Simba (3 year old spayed female, adopted when feral kitten) loves to > lick bath soap.  Whenever I go to use the toilet, she will follow me in, > jump up on the sink vanity and commence to licking the bar soap in the soap > dish.  What’s with this?  She really seems to enjoy it, and it doesn’t seem > to have any adverse effects.  Is she trying to tell me to make sure I wipe > or wash my hands afterwards :>)! (Just kidding of course!)  Seriously, if > anyone has any ideas, I would really like to know.  Thanks.  Shyra.

Response:

He has expensive tastes! *grin* Tara

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My cat does the same thing.  He licks my bar of Clinique soap.  I have yet > to figure out why he does this but it doesn’t seem to hurt him at all. > Sue > Hello All. > My cat Simba (3 year old spayed female, adopted when feral kitten) loves > to > lick bath soap.  Whenever I go to use the toilet, she will follow me in, > jump up on the sink vanity and commence to licking the bar soap in the > soap > dish.  What’s with this?  She really seems to enjoy it, and it doesn’t > seem > to have any adverse effects.  Is she trying to tell me to make sure I wipe > or wash my hands afterwards :>)! (Just kidding of course!)  Seriously, if > anyone has any ideas, I would really like to know.  Thanks.  Shyra.

Response:

My cat does the same thing.  He licks my bar of Clinique soap.  I have yet to figure out why he does this but it doesn’t seem to hurt him at all. Sue

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello All. > My cat Simba (3 year old spayed female, adopted when feral kitten) loves to > lick bath soap.  Whenever I go to use the toilet, she will follow me in, > jump up on the sink vanity and commence to licking the bar soap in the soap > dish.  What’s with this?  She really seems to enjoy it, and it doesn’t seem > to have any adverse effects.  Is she trying to tell me to make sure I wipe > or wash my hands afterwards :>)! (Just kidding of course!)  Seriously, if > anyone has any ideas, I would really like to know.  Thanks.  Shyra.

Response:

Question:

LOL!!!!! Hugs,  Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> sounds like he pulled a Jeffy…. > Mary > Hi Steve, > So glad you’re online with us :) > Maybe in the end, the others will listen to reason.  That’s alot of > remodeling to undertake!   And perhaps the money involved could be used in > something else.  That’s how I weigh everything.  Well, maybe they’ll come > around. > I had to miss the race yesterday because my dear husband cut our > TV/computer > cable accidentally when he was digging my new shrubbery bed – duh ……. > we’ve only lived in this house 17 years.  You’d think he’d remember where > it > was – better him than me though ;) > Hugs,  Linda > > I’m trying to get things sorted out, but I’m falling behind! Ah, such > > is life! > > Anyway, I’m working on a computer that my brother doesn’t use anymore. > > I’ve still got some work to do on it to bring it up to specs, but at > > least I’m back on the internet! > > In the meantime, I have yet to hear from the dr’s office about my > > Remicade treatment. I’ve actually felt some better. The Vioxx seemed > > to help with the pain, but it’s made a comeback in the last two days, > > so I am beginning to suspect that other factors may be involved. > > We have set up a hospital bed in my dad’s room and got most of the > > stuff cleaned up some. It’s confusing, and I really tried to stay out > > of most of it, but at the same time, I really felt I needed to be > > here. They’re now talking about tearing up the wall in the bathroom > > and the spare bedroom to add a slide-in shower, but I just don’t know. > > We’ve been giving dad baths on the bed for over two years now, and I > > just think it’s making a remodel job unnecessarily too big. We don’t > > even know how well Dad will be able to get around and if we can manage > > it with him home yet. My suggestion was easier — you take out the tub > > and the vanity, put a sink where the pipes for the bathtub was and > > that gives plenty of room for Dad to get through the bathroom. It’s > > far too crowded now, and we’ve had pure Hell whenever he’s fallen in > > the bathroom. But the voice of reason is so rarely heard, and I’m not > > holding my breath waiting for them to realize that my way makes more > > sense. We’re going to have to work on the bathroom downstairs to make > > the tub and shower a little better anyway. > > Well, I’m outta here — still got to work on the ‘puter and I’m > > watching the Bristol race. Will be back with updates, and hopefully > > I’ll have things caught up and can be back real soon. > > Y’all take care, & my thoughts are with you. > > love, > > steve (H) > > CD Class of ‘82 > > ASCC on the WWW: http://ascc.healingwell.com > > —–=  Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News  =—– > > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > >  Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits! > > —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers!  ==—–

Response:

sounds like he pulled a Jeffy…. Mary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Steve, > So glad you’re online with us :) > Maybe in the end, the others will listen to reason.  That’s alot of > remodeling to undertake!   And perhaps the money involved could be used in > something else.  That’s how I weigh everything.  Well, maybe they’ll come > around. > I had to miss the race yesterday because my dear husband cut our TV/computer > cable accidentally when he was digging my new shrubbery bed – duh ……. > we’ve only lived in this house 17 years.  You’d think he’d remember where it > was – better him than me though ;) > Hugs,  Linda > I’m trying to get things sorted out, but I’m falling behind! Ah, such > is life! > Anyway, I’m working on a computer that my brother doesn’t use anymore. > I’ve still got some work to do on it to bring it up to specs, but at > least I’m back on the internet! > In the meantime, I have yet to hear from the dr’s office about my > Remicade treatment. I’ve actually felt some better. The Vioxx seemed > to help with the pain, but it’s made a comeback in the last two days, > so I am beginning to suspect that other factors may be involved. > We have set up a hospital bed in my dad’s room and got most of the > stuff cleaned up some. It’s confusing, and I really tried to stay out > of most of it, but at the same time, I really felt I needed to be > here. They’re now talking about tearing up the wall in the bathroom > and the spare bedroom to add a slide-in shower, but I just don’t know. > We’ve been giving dad baths on the bed for over two years now, and I > just think it’s making a remodel job unnecessarily too big. We don’t > even know how well Dad will be able to get around and if we can manage > it with him home yet. My suggestion was easier — you take out the tub > and the vanity, put a sink where the pipes for the bathtub was and > that gives plenty of room for Dad to get through the bathroom. It’s > far too crowded now, and we’ve had pure Hell whenever he’s fallen in > the bathroom. But the voice of reason is so rarely heard, and I’m not > holding my breath waiting for them to realize that my way makes more > sense. We’re going to have to work on the bathroom downstairs to make > the tub and shower a little better anyway. > Well, I’m outta here — still got to work on the ‘puter and I’m > watching the Bristol race. Will be back with updates, and hopefully > I’ll have things caught up and can be back real soon. > Y’all take care, & my thoughts are with you. > love, > steve (H) > CD Class of ‘82 > ASCC on the WWW: http://ascc.healingwell.com > —–=  Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News  =—– > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >  Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits! > —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers!  ==—–

Response:

Hi Steve, So glad you’re online with us :) Maybe in the end, the others will listen to reason.  That’s alot of remodeling to undertake!   And perhaps the money involved could be used in something else.  That’s how I weigh everything.  Well, maybe they’ll come around. I had to miss the race yesterday because my dear husband cut our TV/computer cable accidentally when he was digging my new shrubbery bed – duh ……. we’ve only lived in this house 17 years.  You’d think he’d remember where it was – better him than me though ;) Hugs,  Linda – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m trying to get things sorted out, but I’m falling behind! Ah, such > is life! > Anyway, I’m working on a computer that my brother doesn’t use anymore. > I’ve still got some work to do on it to bring it up to specs, but at > least I’m back on the internet! > In the meantime, I have yet to hear from the dr’s office about my > Remicade treatment. I’ve actually felt some better. The Vioxx seemed > to help with the pain, but it’s made a comeback in the last two days, > so I am beginning to suspect that other factors may be involved. > We have set up a hospital bed in my dad’s room and got most of the > stuff cleaned up some. It’s confusing, and I really tried to stay out > of most of it, but at the same time, I really felt I needed to be > here. They’re now talking about tearing up the wall in the bathroom > and the spare bedroom to add a slide-in shower, but I just don’t know. > We’ve been giving dad baths on the bed for over two years now, and I > just think it’s making a remodel job unnecessarily too big. We don’t > even know how well Dad will be able to get around and if we can manage > it with him home yet. My suggestion was easier — you take out the tub > and the vanity, put a sink where the pipes for the bathtub was and > that gives plenty of room for Dad to get through the bathroom. It’s > far too crowded now, and we’ve had pure Hell whenever he’s fallen in > the bathroom. But the voice of reason is so rarely heard, and I’m not > holding my breath waiting for them to realize that my way makes more > sense. We’re going to have to work on the bathroom downstairs to make > the tub and shower a little better anyway. > Well, I’m outta here — still got to work on the ‘puter and I’m > watching the Bristol race. Will be back with updates, and hopefully > I’ll have things caught up and can be back real soon. > Y’all take care, & my thoughts are with you. > love, > steve (H) > CD Class of ‘82 > ASCC on the WWW: http://ascc.healingwell.com > —–=  Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News  =—– > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >  Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits! > —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers!  ==—–

Response:

I’m very glad to hear that you are feeling better.  Did you shake that respiratory bug?  Reesie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m trying to get things sorted out, but I’m falling behind! Ah, such > is life! > Anyway, I’m working on a computer that my brother doesn’t use anymore. > I’ve still got some work to do on it to bring it up to specs, but at > least I’m back on the internet! > In the meantime, I have yet to hear from the dr’s office about my > Remicade treatment. I’ve actually felt some better. The Vioxx seemed > to help with the pain, but it’s made a comeback in the last two days, > so I am beginning to suspect that other factors may be involved. > We have set up a hospital bed in my dad’s room and got most of the > stuff cleaned up some. It’s confusing, and I really tried to stay out > of most of it, but at the same time, I really felt I needed to be > here. They’re now talking about tearing up the wall in the bathroom > and the spare bedroom to add a slide-in shower, but I just don’t know. > We’ve been giving dad baths on the bed for over two years now, and I > just think it’s making a remodel job unnecessarily too big. We don’t > even know how well Dad will be able to get around and if we can manage > it with him home yet. My suggestion was easier — you take out the tub > and the vanity, put a sink where the pipes for the bathtub was and > that gives plenty of room for Dad to get through the bathroom. It’s > far too crowded now, and we’ve had pure Hell whenever he’s fallen in > the bathroom. But the voice of reason is so rarely heard, and I’m not > holding my breath waiting for them to realize that my way makes more > sense. We’re going to have to work on the bathroom downstairs to make > the tub and shower a little better anyway. > Well, I’m outta here — still got to work on the ‘puter and I’m > watching the Bristol race. Will be back with updates, and hopefully > I’ll have things caught up and can be back real soon. > Y’all take care, & my thoughts are with you. > love, > steve (H) > CD Class of ‘82 > ASCC on the WWW: http://ascc.healingwell.com > —–=  Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News  =—– > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >  Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits! > —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers!  ==—–

Response:

I’m trying to get things sorted out, but I’m falling behind! Ah, such is life! Anyway, I’m working on a computer that my brother doesn’t use anymore. I’ve still got some work to do on it to bring it up to specs, but at least I’m back on the internet! In the meantime, I have yet to hear from the dr’s office about my Remicade treatment. I’ve actually felt some better. The Vioxx seemed to help with the pain, but it’s made a comeback in the last two days, so I am beginning to suspect that other factors may be involved. We have set up a hospital bed in my dad’s room and got most of the stuff cleaned up some. It’s confusing, and I really tried to stay out of most of it, but at the same time, I really felt I needed to be here. They’re now talking about tearing up the wall in the bathroom and the spare bedroom to add a slide-in shower, but I just don’t know. We’ve been giving dad baths on the bed for over two years now, and I just think it’s making a remodel job unnecessarily too big. We don’t even know how well Dad will be able to get around and if we can manage it with him home yet. My suggestion was easier — you take out the tub and the vanity, put a sink where the pipes for the bathtub was and that gives plenty of room for Dad to get through the bathroom. It’s far too crowded now, and we’ve had pure Hell whenever he’s fallen in the bathroom. But the voice of reason is so rarely heard, and I’m not holding my breath waiting for them to realize that my way makes more sense. We’re going to have to work on the bathroom downstairs to make the tub and shower a little better anyway. Well, I’m outta here — still got to work on the ‘puter and I’m watching the Bristol race. Will be back with updates, and hopefully I’ll have things caught up and can be back real soon. Y’all take care, & my thoughts are with you. love, steve (H) CD Class of ‘82 ASCC on the WWW: http://ascc.healingwell.com —–=  Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News  =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!  Check out our new Unlimited Server. No Download or Time Limits! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers!  ==—–

Response:

Question:

I’ve just installed a granite vanity top for the bathroom. I’d like more information on the types of available granite sealers. What are considered good? How much do they cost and where do I buy them? I noticed the vanity darkens a little with water. Seal the stone should make it more water resistant right? Granite does not like oil, what about soap and toothpastes? Do I need to be very careful with those as well? Thanks.

Response:

… >Granite does not like oil,

Huh?  We spill cooking oil on ours all the time it seems and there’s no impact. >what about soap and toothpastes? Do I need >to be very careful with those as well?

If you had to watch for soap and toothpaste, there’s not much point in using granite then is there? Tom             Need info on COTTAGES and CABINS?                http://www.cottageliving.com

Response:

> I’ve just installed a granite vanity top for the bathroom. I’d like > more information on the types of available granite sealers. What are > considered good? How much do they cost and where do I buy them? > I noticed the vanity darkens a little with water. Seal the stone > should make it more water resistant right? > Granite does not like oil, what about soap and toothpastes? Do I need > to be very careful with those as well? > Thanks.

I put some slate(about 1/2 in. to 1 inch thinck on a patio concrete slab and used some stuff that i bought with the slate from the Stone Center.. a place that sells stones… and related products. it was 25 yrs. ago and i paid about $15 for a gallon of the stuff.. it was to be mopped on the slate with a waxer mop(one of those push mops with the little sponge attached to the end… i would not recommend doing this inside a house,it had a odor like gasoline/petroleum product that would make you walk away from it.. it appeared to be a wax type stuff as it held a good dark color to the tile for a long time.. after we ran out of the first gallon we never did get any more at $15 a gallon in 1975 we thought that it was too high and it was very slippery to walk on when wet….. we just settled for the grey look of the slate..  these types of stone centers might have something that is not as volatile as the stuff we had, so you can breathe before the fumes get to you…… it was a sealer….

Response:

>>Granite does not like oil, > Huh?  We spill cooking oil on ours all the time it seems and there’s > no impact.

It probably depends on the porosity of the particular type of granite. From the way it reacts to water, I’d guess oil would definitely get in. >what about soap and toothpastes? Do I need >to be very careful with those as well? > If you had to watch for soap and toothpaste, there’s not much point in > using granite then is there?

If I really want a maintenance free vanity, I’d opt for one of the solid surface materials. I wanted granite for its look, and all I am asking is some care information, as I’ve never had one before. I was searching for granite sealer on google groups and it seems you like to brag about your granite does not get stained by oil huh? :) (and I thought I was reading archived posts…) Ok, how about some real answers. What type of sealer and who sells it? My local HD does not seem to carry anything that says stone sealer.

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… >It probably depends on the porosity of the particular type of granite. >From the way it reacts to water, I’d guess oil would definitely get >in.

Okay – how does it "react" to water? … >If I really want a maintenance free vanity, I’d opt for one of the >solid surface materials. I wanted granite for its look, and all I am >asking is some care information, as I’ve never had one before. >I was searching for granite sealer on google groups and it seems you >like to brag about your granite does not get stained by oil huh? :) >(and I thought I was reading archived posts…)

What can I say?  We have three different types in our place for over a dozen years and we’ve abused it.  Also many friends have granite and they’ve not had a problem.  YMMV. >Ok, how about some real answers. What type of sealer and who sells it? >My local HD does not seem to carry anything that says stone sealer.

Duroshine, Ceramaseal and others make sealers.    But if you insist on buying this stuff, try a tile/stone shop.  Or order on-line at places like http://www.stone-sales.com/countersealer.html Tom             Need info on COTTAGES and CABINS?                http://www.cottageliving.com

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I installed a tile kitchen top with a meduim grained granite (dk green). I used a silicon based sealer from the HD that sold for about $20/qt I don’t recall the name/brand, but it was in a blue plastic bottle and I believe it was something like "511 impregnator" or such. It seems to work well, no stains anyway. The granite was very reluctant to absorb anything at all. I used the same for some slate and it drank it right up. I have also used a surface type sealer for slate that gives it a waxed, shiney apperance. I would _not_ use this on granite since it basically is a top coat that woudl peel off of a dense material. The "511" stuff is like a very light oil that actually gets into the pores, but doesn’t actually dry as a film. -Bruce > I’ve just installed a granite vanity top for the bathroom. I’d like > more information on the types of available granite sealers. What are > considered good? How much do they cost and where do I buy them? > I noticed the vanity darkens a little with water. Seal the stone > should make it more water resistant right? > Granite does not like oil, what about soap and toothpastes? Do I need > to be very careful with those as well? > Thanks.

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I believe it was something like > "511 impregnator" or such.

Thaz the one..

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>>It probably depends on the porosity of the particular type of granite. >From the way it reacts to water, I’d guess oil would definitely get >in. > Okay – how does it "react" to water?

It gets dark whenever there’s water on the surface. It’s a medium shade color. I guess the particular granite I got absorbs a lot of water. I’ve bought the 511 stuff from HD and I will try it. You mean the one you have does not get dark at all with water?

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>> Okay – how does it "react" to water? >It gets dark whenever there’s water on the surface.

That’s not a ‘reaction’.  It’s just wet.  Or are you trying to tell us it permanently stays that dark color even after it dries?  Never heard of that.  And we have extensive grantite counters. >… I’ve bought the 511 stuff from HD and I will try it.

You’re really much better off going to an actual stone or tile shop and getting expert info.  But really IMHO it is a complete waste of time money & effort. >You mean the one you have does not get dark at all with water?

Got news for you:  when it is wet, it is in the nature of this material that the wet areas are darker.  Then when it dries it is no longer darker.  You are trying to make granite into something it is not.  If you can’t stand the natural character of the material, you should have gotten an artificial material that would satisfy you as to this characteristic.   We do not seal our granite.  When it is wet it is apparent which areas are wet, and when it is dry it is apparent that no areas are wet. What is the problem.  It is NOT ’stained’.  "Stained" would be if it changed color and stayed that way. -v.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>It probably depends on the porosity of the particular type of granite. >>From the way it reacts to water, I’d guess oil would definitely get >>in. > Okay – how does it "react" to water? > It gets dark whenever there’s water on the surface. It’s a medium > shade color. I guess the particular granite I got absorbs a lot of > water. I’ve bought the 511 stuff from HD and I will try it. > You mean the one you have does not get dark at all with water?

What granite do you have? — al ‘01 FXST

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…. >It gets dark whenever there’s water on the surface. It’s a medium >shade color. I guess the particular granite I got absorbs a lot of >water. I’ve bought the 511 stuff from HD and I will try it.

Are you sure you aren’t just seeing the refraction of light in the water on the stone?  You know, like a rock on the beach looks darker when it is wet? >You mean the one you have does not get dark at all with water?

NOPE!  Now ours are msotly darker colours, but even with medium browns I’ve never seen that which you describe. Tom             Need info on COTTAGES and CABINS?                http://www.cottageliving.com

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> …. >It gets dark whenever there’s water on the surface. It’s a medium >shade color. I guess the particular granite I got absorbs a lot of >water. I’ve bought the 511 stuff from HD and I will try it. > Are you sure you aren’t just seeing the refraction of light in the > water on the stone?  You know, like a rock on the beach looks darker > when it is wet?

     I’m not the original poster, but I can verify the effect.  With some types of granite (ours, at least), water will temporarily darken the granite.  Drying the granite with a cloth does not change things. It does eventually go away, though (after an hour++, not minutes). Water rings are, of course, especially noticeable.  I’ve also toyed with the idea of sealing it, but the granite’s in the kitchen, and I don’t know if I want to apply sealer there.      Sorry, I don’t know what kind of granite it is (aside from being a dark green shade of color). —         Darryl Okahata DISCLAIMER: this message is the author’s personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Agilent Technologies, or of the little green men that have been following him all day.

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… >     I’m not the original poster, but I can verify the effect.  With >some types of granite (ours, at least), water will temporarily darken >the granite.  Drying the granite with a cloth does not change things. >It does eventually go away, though (after an hour++, not minutes). >Water rings are, of course, especially noticeable.  I’ve also toyed with >the idea of sealing it, but the granite’s in the kitchen, and I don’t >know if I want to apply sealer there.

Interesting.  When we originally started looking for granite counters, we made a special point of getting samples and subjecting them to "torture tests" like lemon juice, red wine, ink, etc.  Frankly I can’t imagine buying stone counters (given what they cost) that have a problem with mere aqua. >     Sorry, I don’t know what kind of granite it is (aside from being a >dark green shade of color).

Therein lies the rub; there must be some interesting stone types treated in interesting ways if they are adversely affected by water alone. Tom             Need info on COTTAGES and CABINS?                http://www.cottageliving.com

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> >     Sorry, I don’t know what kind of granite it is (aside from being a >dark green shade of color). > Therein lies the rub; there must be some interesting stone types > treated in interesting ways if they are adversely affected by water > alone.

     Well, in all fairness, it’s not all that big a problem.  It can take minutes (sometimes 15-30+) for the water to seep in.  For example, I’ve cut wet vegetables on a plastic board on top of the granite; the water runs off the board onto the granite, and it can be a (short to medium) while before I get around to wiping it off.  Any stain (if any) isn’t all that noticeable.  The biggest problem area is (not surprisingly) around the sink, and those "stains", while almost always present, just appear as darker areas. [ Of course, how noticeable any staining is depends on the type and look   of the particular granite in question.  We have this dark green   granite with somewhat translucent grains.  It looks as if you can see   down into the first 1/8" or so into the granite, and the quartz veins   change subtly over the countertop.  Any water "stains" simply appear   as darker areas (darker than most of the granite).  For irregular   stains, it can be difficult to tell that a stain is actually there   (except for the area around the sink -- if you pay attention, you'll   see darker areas surrounding part of the sink).  The problem stains   are those which are symmetrical (like rings or filled-in circular   areas); these are pretty obvious, but will go away within a day or so   when dried.  ] —         Darryl Okahata DISCLAIMER: this message is the author’s personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Agilent Technologies, or of the little green men that have been following him all day.

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>>It gets dark whenever there’s water on the surface. > That’s not a ‘reaction’.  It’s just wet.  Or are you trying to tell us > it permanently stays that dark color even after it dries?  Never heard > of that.  And we have extensive grantite counters.

Mine came from Romana Stone. The color is prelude (beige). It does change back to the normal color after it dries (hours+) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->… I’ve bought the 511 stuff from HD and I will try it. > You’re really much better off going to an actual stone or tile shop > and getting expert info.  But really IMHO it is a complete waste of > time money & effort. >You mean the one you have does not get dark at all with water? > Got news for you:  when it is wet, it is in the nature of this > material that the wet areas are darker.  Then when it dries it is no > longer darker.  You are trying to make granite into something it is > not.  If you can’t stand the natural character of the material, you > should have gotten an artificial material that would satisfy you as to > this characteristic.   > We do not seal our granite.  When it is wet it is apparent which areas > are wet, and when it is dry it is apparent that no areas are wet. > What is the problem.  It is NOT ’stained’.  "Stained" would be if it > changed color and stayed that way.

I am NOT worried about water getting in. What I am worried about is other types of material gets in and doesn’t dry up. What do I do then? I thought the sealant is suppose to penetrate a little into the stone, and then prevents other things from getting too deep into the stone. How about this, what kind of stuff I should avoid using on Granite? That it will get in, stains it, and does not dry up? Oil? Cleaner? Thanks.

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The people who install all our granite counters say the counters should be sealed twice a year. I didn’t know they even required anything after they were put in until recently when the installer told us this.

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>>It gets dark whenever there’s water on the surface. It’s a medium >shade color. I guess the particular granite I got absorbs a lot of >water. I’ve bought the 511 stuff from HD and I will try it. > Are you sure you aren’t just seeing the refraction of light in the > water on the stone?  You know, like a rock on the beach looks darker > when it is wet? >You mean the one you have does not get dark at all with water? > NOPE!  Now ours are msotly darker colours, but even with medium browns > I’ve never seen that which you describe.

Then the granite must’ve been sealed by the installer. I did a test with the 511 on a 12×12 granite made of the same material and shade. Without the sealer, the granite darkens almost immediately with water. It dires up in about 10-20 minutes and color returns to normal. I then applied some of the 511 stuff on the surface, and waited for it to dry. The granite absorbs the material so there’s nothing on the surface. After it completely dried. I tried putting water on it again. Guess what, it’s like putting water on a just polished car surface. The water does not get absorbed at all! I merely need to tilt the tile and all the water came off. Wow. I compared the color with a unsealed granite, they are exactly the same. The sealer does not seem to change the color.

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> We do not seal our granite.  When it is wet it is apparent which areas > are wet, and when it is dry it is apparent that no areas are wet. > What is the problem.  It is NOT ’stained’.  "Stained" would be if it > changed color and stayed that way.

What if the granite absorbs something that does not dry up? What then? Oh of course, they can buy another granite, more business for granite dealers, why didn’t I think of that… Read my post on my 511 sealer test. It worked like a charm.

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>Without the sealer, the granite darkens almost immediately with water. >It dires up in about 10-20 minutes and color returns to normal.

Personally I would not bother with sealer to correct this ‘problem’ which would rectify itself in 20 minutes, anyway, and without anyone’s intervention.  We have never had anything on it that did not correct itself after a brief period.  Actually, our problem is the opposite, sometimes the kids leave something sticky, and I *don’t* see it, and so find it by putting my sleeve in it…. It’s your house, so you go ahead if it bothers you that much.  You don’t *know* that there is NOTHING that would penetrate the 511 sealer, so you too could spill something on your granite that would permanently change its color.  And then you of all people would indeed need to replace it. -v.

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>>Without the sealer, the granite darkens almost immediately with water. >It dires up in about 10-20 minutes and color returns to normal. >Personally I would not bother with sealer to correct this ‘problem’ >which would rectify itself in 20 minutes, anyway, and without anyone’s >intervention.  We have never had anything on it that did not correct >itself after a brief period.  Actually, our problem is the opposite, >sometimes the kids leave something sticky, and I *don’t* see it, and >so find it by putting my sleeve in it….

Really? How about cooking oil? Vinegar? Lemon juice? Whether to seal and how much depends on the absorptive properties of the stone. Check out stoneindustry.com for the "lemon juice test". My favorite sealer is from mbstone.com. Not cheap but there’s none better. You can also check stoneexpozone.com for the absorption rate of many "granites". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->It’s your house, so you go ahead if it bothers you that much.  You >don’t *know* that there is NOTHING that would penetrate the 511 >sealer, so you too could spill something on your granite that would >permanently change its color.  And then you of all people would indeed >need to replace it. >-v.

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>The people who install all our granite counters say the counters should be >sealed twice a year. I didn’t know they even required anything after they >were put in until recently when the installer told us this.

Real granites need no or infrequent sealing. Most of the stone sold for countertops is more porous that granite and requires some selaer., but anything that needs sealing twice a year isn’t a great choice for kitchens.

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Question:

> Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before)

I put a mat-type electric system in when we made our latest bathrooms. It’s only under the middle of the floor where we would stand, in front of the shower, the vanity, and the toilet. It’s quite thin so it wouldn’t raise the tiles much. You do have to run wires up the wall to the control. > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

My controller is basically a timer, it has those little tabs that you move for each hour. I just set it to start a couple hours before I get up. Being on the basement floor it doesn’t get warm enough in winter, but it’s way better than cold tile. It’s quite toasty the rest of the year. If yours is over the garage, effectiveness probably depends on how well insulated from the garage your floor is. It supposedly costs as much to run as a light bulb. — Brian Bebeau

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This is a retrofit, removing the tiles in the center of the room, and they laying them back down with the radiant heating underneath.  I would think that having the tiles in the center of room raised at all, even a little bit, would be noticeable and objectionable.  No? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It’s quite thin so it > wouldn’t > raise the tiles much.

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Just do this.  Take off the ceiling in the garage to expose the underside off the tiled bathroom floor and install a hydronic heating loop composed of PEX with the reflectors screwed to the subfloor. We put a loop between each joist until we cover the area off the bathroom floor.  We then set a small electric water heater adapted for heating with the needed pump and controls. The temperature off the floor is controlled by thermisters that we install in the floor.  On larger jobs we install multiple thermisters and average the inputs.  After the PEX and reflectors are installed, the floor is insulated to direct the heat through the tile.  This system works great, safe and not too expensive.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it). > Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile > would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above > the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets > chilly in there. > So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile > system. > Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it > myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my > question is this: > Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

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We retrofitted radiant heat in our two bathrooms.  One was being rennovated and had an Oak floor.  The other needs rennovation, it has a plywood floor, we tore up the carpet a few years ago and put down some small bath rugs. In both rooms we put loops of PEX tubing under the floor on stand-offs.  Then we put foil-faced insulation between the floor joists so that the foil was facing up and about an inch below the PEX tubing.  We already had a hot water baseboard system so we just added a mixing valve on another zone with low-temp zone valves for each bathroom. It works pretty good.  The one drawback is that in the bathroom that needs rennovation the toilet is next to the window and it is an older window w/o thermal glass (but it has a storm).  When it is cold outside the cold air flows down from the window.  We plan to replace this window with a thermally insulated one.  We also plan to tile the floor in this bathroom which. If you don’t have a boiler, you can use a water heater to provide the hot water. Thanks. Jeff

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Any advice for my application? Doing a complete bathroom renovation, torn down to studs and subfloor. Bathroom now does not have its own heat. House has steam radiators. Am I better off with electric mats or PEX and a dedicated water heater and circulator? Rough cost comparison?

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I have a bathroom with no heat in it too.  I put in a Nutone 9965 combo fan/heater/light/night light http://www.nutone.com/prod/prod107.html The family loves it.  Costs about $140.  Needs its own 20A circuit.  A lot less expensive than extending the steam system.  The heater is on an Intermatic timer switch. Good luck.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Any advice for my application? > Doing a complete bathroom renovation, torn down to studs and subfloor. > Bathroom now does not have its own heat. House has steam radiators. > Am I better off with electric mats or PEX and a dedicated water heater and > circulator? > Rough cost comparison?

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>Am I better off with electric mats or PEX and a dedicated water heater and >circulator?

If you don’t want the hassle of switching the system off and on – i.e., if you just want to leave it on (at a low level) – then my calculations indicate that the operating cost of the electric version is prohibitive. I came up with 30 cents a day ($100 a year!) Assuming I didn’t miss a decimal point. yours, Garry PS – Our electric cost hereabouts is more than double our propane cost, per heat-equivalent.

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>Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only >pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need >the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the >tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear >up? (I have not installed a tile floor before)

I installed stuff like this:   http://www.warmfloorcenter.com/diy.html under this floor:  http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~hubcap/d.pics/bonnietub.jpg This was the only floor I’ve ever installed. I think it would be really hard to do it the way you describe above. >Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For >example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and >cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the >thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or >during the day)

If you care about stuff like that you should get a programmable thermostat. We’ve got one, but we don’t use it. We just have it set to keep the floor in our little bathroom warm all the time. It doesn’t seem to $oak up too much electricity. If the floor was cold, and you didn’t mind waiting for it to warm up, you didn’t have to go very badly <g>… -Mike

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I just finished replacing the carpet in my master bath with marble tiles.  I chose to install a product called Warm Tiles. I was influenced by two factors; the irregular shape of my bathroom, and cost.  I was able to install cable to about 80 sf of floor for under $500 (including programable theromostat).  The biggest difference is that the heat cables come on spools, not in mats.  It gives you great flexibility, but maybe requires more labor. Since they recommend not heating for 15 days after laying the tile, I can’t tell you how long it takes to feel the heat.  The documentation says it takes 3 hours to completely heat up the floor. As for whether it will raise the level of the tiles, it probably depends on the thickness of the thinset used by the contractor on the original install. The tiles can be set directly on the wire, so you’ll need to find out if they would fit in the current thickness. Good Luck

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it). > Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile > would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above > the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets > chilly in there. > So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile > system. > Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it > myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my > question is this: > Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it). > Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile > would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above > the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets > chilly in there. > So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile > system. > Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it > myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my > question is this: > Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

From a tile setter’s end, to properly install one of these systems the tile needs to be removed.  The others have answered your other question. — hyh – ‘01 FXST       ‘86 CT90  (alive & well)       ‘69 CT110 (alive & well)       ‘67 CS90 "Benley" (passed on now)

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> From a tile setter’s end, to properly install one of these systems the > tile needs to be removed.  The others have answered your other question.

     Ditto, if you install anything that needs to go under the tiles. Not only do you have to route wires (or pipes), but you’ll also want the entire floor to be flat.      Also, the electric mat-based system does take a few minutes to warm up (not a problem if you have timers, but it’s something to be aware of).  It’ll probably be something like 2-5 minutes before you’ll feel anything, and perhaps 5-10 before it’s comfortable (maybe 15 for "nice and cozy").  Also note that the electric mats can use ~11 watts per square foot. —         Darryl Okahata DISCLAIMER: this message is the author’s personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Agilent Technologies, or of the little green men that have been following him all day.

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When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built when we found it). Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets chilly in there. So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile system. Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my question is this: Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or during the day)

Response:

I am in the same situation.  I bought the house new, but it was already finished.   My front foyer has shinny glazed white tiles with white grout. The shinny glazing is like teflon coated ice when it gets wet (and in the foyer, that is true whenever it rains), and the white grout has not been white since we moved in.  Also, white- on-white really doesn’t suit the house style wise. So, I am just wondering what "a bunch of money" is?    :) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it).

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I am in the process of bathroom renovation now, and just bought Heatweave electric warming mats from Watts.  I have not installed them yet, but am told they will fit within the 1/4" or so of thinset under the tile, so it will not raise the profile of the floor.  The heating wires are very thin, maybe 1/8".  You do not cut the heating wires to length, instead you order the width and length of mat required from their standard stock of assorted sizes. You need to bury a power lead and thermal sensor lead in the thinset from the mat to a wall where your thermostat and power supply (120VAC or 240VAC) is located.   You can get a programmable thermostat with day/night/7 day settings.  (about $120 !) All the parts to do an approx 4 ft x 7 ft area cost about $650.   (that is 30% below list).  The system appears to be very DIY friendly – you can order a videotape and their website is very complete with full docs on all the elements. http://www.wattsradiant.com/heatweave.html Good luck! — Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it). > Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile > would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above > the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets > chilly in there. > So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile > system. > Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it > myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my > question is this: > Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

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Have you considered an electric toe kick heater?  It slides into the toe kick under your bathroom vanity cabinet.  It will blow out warm air across your tiles.  It would be a lot easier to install, you wouldn’t have to rip out any tiles.  It will provide instant heat, you won’t have to wait for the tiles to warm up.  I put one in my bathroom.  We connected it to a timer switch, not a thermostat.  If you are cold just give the switch a turn and the heater comes on.  The switch always shuts the heater off so we only run the heater when we need some extra heat in the room. Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it). > Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile > would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above > the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets > chilly in there. > So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile > system. > Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it > myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my > question is this: > Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

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> From a tile setter’s end, to properly install one of these systems the > tile needs to be removed.  The others have answered your other question.

     Ditto, if you install anything that needs to go under the tiles. Not only do you have to route wires (or pipes), but you’ll also want the entire floor to be flat.      Also, the electric mat-based system does take a few minutes to warm up (not a problem if you have timers, but it’s something to be aware of).  It’ll probably be something like 2-5 minutes before you’ll feel anything, and perhaps 5-10 before it’s comfortable (maybe 15 for "nice and cozy").  Also note that the electric mats can use ~11 watts per square foot. —         Darryl Okahata DISCLAIMER: this message is the author’s personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Agilent Technologies, or of the little green men that have been following him all day.

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> Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before)

I put a mat-type electric system in when we made our latest bathrooms. It’s only under the middle of the floor where we would stand, in front of the shower, the vanity, and the toilet. It’s quite thin so it wouldn’t raise the tiles much. You do have to run wires up the wall to the control. > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

My controller is basically a timer, it has those little tabs that you move for each hour. I just set it to start a couple hours before I get up. Being on the basement floor it doesn’t get warm enough in winter, but it’s way better than cold tile. It’s quite toasty the rest of the year. If yours is over the garage, effectiveness probably depends on how well insulated from the garage your floor is. It supposedly costs as much to run as a light bulb. — Brian Bebeau

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This is a retrofit, removing the tiles in the center of the room, and they laying them back down with the radiant heating underneath.  I would think that having the tiles in the center of room raised at all, even a little bit, would be noticeable and objectionable.  No? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It’s quite thin so it > wouldn’t > raise the tiles much.

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Our radiant floor tubes under the tile, raised the level approx 1 inch as compared to the flooring outside the room.  Both floors started at the same hieght with regards to the subfloor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This is a retrofit, removing the tiles in the center of the room, and >they laying them back down with the radiant heating underneath.  I would >think that having the tiles in the center of room raised at all, even a >little bit, would be noticeable and objectionable.  No? > It’s quite thin so it > wouldn’t > raise the tiles much.

Response:

Just do this.  Take off the ceiling in the garage to expose the underside off the tiled bathroom floor and install a hydronic heating loop composed of PEX with the reflectors screwed to the subfloor. We put a loop between each joist until we cover the area off the bathroom floor.  We then set a small electric water heater adapted for heating with the needed pump and controls. The temperature off the floor is controlled by thermisters that we install in the floor.  On larger jobs we install multiple thermisters and average the inputs.  After the PEX and reflectors are installed, the floor is insulated to direct the heat through the tile.  This system works great, safe and not too expensive.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it). > Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile > would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above > the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets > chilly in there. > So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile > system. > Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it > myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my > question is this: > Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

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>Am I better off with electric mats or PEX and a dedicated water heater and >circulator?

If you don’t want the hassle of switching the system off and on – i.e., if you just want to leave it on (at a low level) – then my calculations indicate that the operating cost of the electric version is prohibitive. I came up with 30 cents a day ($100 a year!) Assuming I didn’t miss a decimal point. yours, Garry PS – Our electric cost hereabouts is more than double our propane cost, per heat-equivalent.

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Any advice for my application? Doing a complete bathroom renovation, torn down to studs and subfloor. Bathroom now does not have its own heat. House has steam radiators. Am I better off with electric mats or PEX and a dedicated water heater and circulator? Rough cost comparison?

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I have a bathroom with no heat in it too.  I put in a Nutone 9965 combo fan/heater/light/night light http://www.nutone.com/prod/prod107.html The family loves it.  Costs about $140.  Needs its own 20A circuit.  A lot less expensive than extending the steam system.  The heater is on an Intermatic timer switch. Good luck.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Any advice for my application? > Doing a complete bathroom renovation, torn down to studs and subfloor. > Bathroom now does not have its own heat. House has steam radiators. > Am I better off with electric mats or PEX and a dedicated water heater and > circulator? > Rough cost comparison?

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We retrofitted radiant heat in our two bathrooms.  One was being rennovated and had an Oak floor.  The other needs rennovation, it has a plywood floor, we tore up the carpet a few years ago and put down some small bath rugs. In both rooms we put loops of PEX tubing under the floor on stand-offs.  Then we put foil-faced insulation between the floor joists so that the foil was facing up and about an inch below the PEX tubing.  We already had a hot water baseboard system so we just added a mixing valve on another zone with low-temp zone valves for each bathroom. It works pretty good.  The one drawback is that in the bathroom that needs rennovation the toilet is next to the window and it is an older window w/o thermal glass (but it has a storm).  When it is cold outside the cold air flows down from the window.  We plan to replace this window with a thermally insulated one.  We also plan to tile the floor in this bathroom which. If you don’t have a boiler, you can use a water heater to provide the hot water. Thanks. Jeff

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it). > Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile > would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above > the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets > chilly in there. > So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile > system. > Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it > myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my > question is this: > Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

From a tile setter’s end, to properly install one of these systems the tile needs to be removed.  The others have answered your other question. — hyh – ‘01 FXST       ‘86 CT90  (alive & well)       ‘69 CT110 (alive & well)       ‘67 CS90 "Benley" (passed on now)

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I just finished replacing the carpet in my master bath with marble tiles.  I chose to install a product called Warm Tiles. I was influenced by two factors; the irregular shape of my bathroom, and cost.  I was able to install cable to about 80 sf of floor for under $500 (including programable theromostat).  The biggest difference is that the heat cables come on spools, not in mats.  It gives you great flexibility, but maybe requires more labor. Since they recommend not heating for 15 days after laying the tile, I can’t tell you how long it takes to feel the heat.  The documentation says it takes 3 hours to completely heat up the floor. As for whether it will raise the level of the tiles, it probably depends on the thickness of the thinset used by the contractor on the original install. The tiles can be set directly on the wire, so you’ll need to find out if they would fit in the current thickness. Good Luck

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it). > Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile > would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above > the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets > chilly in there. > So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile > system. > Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it > myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my > question is this: > Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

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>Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only >pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need >the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the >tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear >up? (I have not installed a tile floor before)

I installed stuff like this:   http://www.warmfloorcenter.com/diy.html under this floor:  http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~hubcap/d.pics/bonnietub.jpg This was the only floor I’ve ever installed. I think it would be really hard to do it the way you describe above. >Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For >example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and >cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the >thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or >during the day)

If you care about stuff like that you should get a programmable thermostat. We’ve got one, but we don’t use it. We just have it set to keep the floor in our little bathroom warm all the time. It doesn’t seem to $oak up too much electricity. If the floor was cold, and you didn’t mind waiting for it to warm up, you didn’t have to go very badly <g>… -Mike

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Have you considered an electric toe kick heater?  It slides into the toe kick under your bathroom vanity cabinet.  It will blow out warm air across your tiles.  It would be a lot easier to install, you wouldn’t have to rip out any tiles.  It will provide instant heat, you won’t have to wait for the tiles to warm up.  I put one in my bathroom.  We connected it to a timer switch, not a thermostat.  If you are cold just give the switch a turn and the heater comes on.  The switch always shuts the heater off so we only run the heater when we need some extra heat in the room. Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it). > Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile > would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above > the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets > chilly in there. > So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile > system. > Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it > myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my > question is this: > Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

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>My front foyer has shinny glazed white tiles with white grout. …. >So, I am just wondering what "a bunch of money" is?    :)

Quick/cheaper options: Etch the current tiles… of course this doesn’t do anything for the look of things, but might help with the slipperyness… Look on the web for muratic acid, etching, etc… not sure this will work. Paint with a floor enamel with anti skid additive.  This will change the color and texture… if you are crafty/artistic, you could faux paint the tiles to be exactly what you want. (assuming tile is what you want…) — be safe, flip ^___^ ^.^/ ==u==

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I am in the process of bathroom renovation now, and just bought Heatweave electric warming mats from Watts.  I have not installed them yet, but am told they will fit within the 1/4" or so of thinset under the tile, so it will not raise the profile of the floor.  The heating wires are very thin, maybe 1/8".  You do not cut the heating wires to length, instead you order the width and length of mat required from their standard stock of assorted sizes. You need to bury a power lead and thermal sensor lead in the thinset from the mat to a wall where your thermostat and power supply (120VAC or 240VAC) is located.   You can get a programmable thermostat with day/night/7 day settings.  (about $120 !) All the parts to do an approx 4 ft x 7 ft area cost about $650.   (that is 30% below list).  The system appears to be very DIY friendly – you can order a videotape and their website is very complete with full docs on all the elements. http://www.wattsradiant.com/heatweave.html Good luck! — Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it). > Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile > would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above > the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets > chilly in there. > So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile > system. > Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it > myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my > question is this: > Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

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I am in the same situation.  I bought the house new, but it was already finished.   My front foyer has shinny glazed white tiles with white grout. The shinny glazing is like teflon coated ice when it gets wet (and in the foyer, that is true whenever it rains), and the white grout has not been white since we moved in.  Also, white- on-white really doesn’t suit the house style wise. So, I am just wondering what "a bunch of money" is?    :) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it).

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When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built when we found it). Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets chilly in there. So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile system. Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my question is this: Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or during the day)

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> From a tile setter’s end, to properly install one of these systems the > tile needs to be removed.  The others have answered your other question.

     Ditto, if you install anything that needs to go under the tiles. Not only do you have to route wires (or pipes), but you’ll also want the entire floor to be flat.      Also, the electric mat-based system does take a few minutes to warm up (not a problem if you have timers, but it’s something to be aware of).  It’ll probably be something like 2-5 minutes before you’ll feel anything, and perhaps 5-10 before it’s comfortable (maybe 15 for "nice and cozy").  Also note that the electric mats can use ~11 watts per square foot. —         Darryl Okahata DISCLAIMER: this message is the author’s personal opinion and does not constitute the support, opinion, or policy of Agilent Technologies, or of the little green men that have been following him all day.

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> Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before)

I put a mat-type electric system in when we made our latest bathrooms. It’s only under the middle of the floor where we would stand, in front of the shower, the vanity, and the toilet. It’s quite thin so it wouldn’t raise the tiles much. You do have to run wires up the wall to the control. > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

My controller is basically a timer, it has those little tabs that you move for each hour. I just set it to start a couple hours before I get up. Being on the basement floor it doesn’t get warm enough in winter, but it’s way better than cold tile. It’s quite toasty the rest of the year. If yours is over the garage, effectiveness probably depends on how well insulated from the garage your floor is. It supposedly costs as much to run as a light bulb. — Brian Bebeau

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This is a retrofit, removing the tiles in the center of the room, and they laying them back down with the radiant heating underneath.  I would think that having the tiles in the center of room raised at all, even a little bit, would be noticeable and objectionable.  No? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It’s quite thin so it > wouldn’t > raise the tiles much.

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Our radiant floor tubes under the tile, raised the level approx 1 inch as compared to the flooring outside the room.  Both floors started at the same hieght with regards to the subfloor. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->This is a retrofit, removing the tiles in the center of the room, and >they laying them back down with the radiant heating underneath.  I would >think that having the tiles in the center of room raised at all, even a >little bit, would be noticeable and objectionable.  No? > It’s quite thin so it > wouldn’t > raise the tiles much.

Response:

Just do this.  Take off the ceiling in the garage to expose the underside off the tiled bathroom floor and install a hydronic heating loop composed of PEX with the reflectors screwed to the subfloor. We put a loop between each joist until we cover the area off the bathroom floor.  We then set a small electric water heater adapted for heating with the needed pump and controls. The temperature off the floor is controlled by thermisters that we install in the floor.  On larger jobs we install multiple thermisters and average the inputs.  After the PEX and reflectors are installed, the floor is insulated to direct the heat through the tile.  This system works great, safe and not too expensive.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it). > Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile > would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above > the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets > chilly in there. > So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile > system. > Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it > myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my > question is this: > Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

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>Am I better off with electric mats or PEX and a dedicated water heater and >circulator?

If you don’t want the hassle of switching the system off and on – i.e., if you just want to leave it on (at a low level) – then my calculations indicate that the operating cost of the electric version is prohibitive. I came up with 30 cents a day ($100 a year!) Assuming I didn’t miss a decimal point. yours, Garry PS – Our electric cost hereabouts is more than double our propane cost, per heat-equivalent.

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Any advice for my application? Doing a complete bathroom renovation, torn down to studs and subfloor. Bathroom now does not have its own heat. House has steam radiators. Am I better off with electric mats or PEX and a dedicated water heater and circulator? Rough cost comparison?

Response:

I have a bathroom with no heat in it too.  I put in a Nutone 9965 combo fan/heater/light/night light http://www.nutone.com/prod/prod107.html The family loves it.  Costs about $140.  Needs its own 20A circuit.  A lot less expensive than extending the steam system.  The heater is on an Intermatic timer switch. Good luck.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Any advice for my application? > Doing a complete bathroom renovation, torn down to studs and subfloor. > Bathroom now does not have its own heat. House has steam radiators. > Am I better off with electric mats or PEX and a dedicated water heater and > circulator? > Rough cost comparison?

Response:

We retrofitted radiant heat in our two bathrooms.  One was being rennovated and had an Oak floor.  The other needs rennovation, it has a plywood floor, we tore up the carpet a few years ago and put down some small bath rugs. In both rooms we put loops of PEX tubing under the floor on stand-offs.  Then we put foil-faced insulation between the floor joists so that the foil was facing up and about an inch below the PEX tubing.  We already had a hot water baseboard system so we just added a mixing valve on another zone with low-temp zone valves for each bathroom. It works pretty good.  The one drawback is that in the bathroom that needs rennovation the toilet is next to the window and it is an older window w/o thermal glass (but it has a storm).  When it is cold outside the cold air flows down from the window.  We plan to replace this window with a thermally insulated one.  We also plan to tile the floor in this bathroom which. If you don’t have a boiler, you can use a water heater to provide the hot water. Thanks. Jeff

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it). > Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile > would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above > the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets > chilly in there. > So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile > system. > Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it > myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my > question is this: > Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

From a tile setter’s end, to properly install one of these systems the tile needs to be removed.  The others have answered your other question. — hyh – ‘01 FXST       ‘86 CT90  (alive & well)       ‘69 CT110 (alive & well)       ‘67 CS90 "Benley" (passed on now)

Response:

I just finished replacing the carpet in my master bath with marble tiles.  I chose to install a product called Warm Tiles. I was influenced by two factors; the irregular shape of my bathroom, and cost.  I was able to install cable to about 80 sf of floor for under $500 (including programable theromostat).  The biggest difference is that the heat cables come on spools, not in mats.  It gives you great flexibility, but maybe requires more labor. Since they recommend not heating for 15 days after laying the tile, I can’t tell you how long it takes to feel the heat.  The documentation says it takes 3 hours to completely heat up the floor. As for whether it will raise the level of the tiles, it probably depends on the thickness of the thinset used by the contractor on the original install. The tiles can be set directly on the wire, so you’ll need to find out if they would fit in the current thickness. Good Luck

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it). > Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile > would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above > the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets > chilly in there. > So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile > system. > Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it > myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my > question is this: > Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

Response:

>Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only >pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need >the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the >tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear >up? (I have not installed a tile floor before)

I installed stuff like this:   http://www.warmfloorcenter.com/diy.html under this floor:  http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~hubcap/d.pics/bonnietub.jpg This was the only floor I’ve ever installed. I think it would be really hard to do it the way you describe above. >Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For >example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and >cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the >thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or >during the day)

If you care about stuff like that you should get a programmable thermostat. We’ve got one, but we don’t use it. We just have it set to keep the floor in our little bathroom warm all the time. It doesn’t seem to $oak up too much electricity. If the floor was cold, and you didn’t mind waiting for it to warm up, you didn’t have to go very badly <g>… -Mike

Response:

Have you considered an electric toe kick heater?  It slides into the toe kick under your bathroom vanity cabinet.  It will blow out warm air across your tiles.  It would be a lot easier to install, you wouldn’t have to rip out any tiles.  It will provide instant heat, you won’t have to wait for the tiles to warm up.  I put one in my bathroom.  We connected it to a timer switch, not a thermostat.  If you are cold just give the switch a turn and the heater comes on.  The switch always shuts the heater off so we only run the heater when we need some extra heat in the room. Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it). > Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile > would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above > the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets > chilly in there. > So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile > system. > Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it > myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my > question is this: > Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

Response:

>My front foyer has shinny glazed white tiles with white grout. …. >So, I am just wondering what "a bunch of money" is?    :)

Quick/cheaper options: Etch the current tiles… of course this doesn’t do anything for the look of things, but might help with the slipperyness… Look on the web for muratic acid, etching, etc… not sure this will work. Paint with a floor enamel with anti skid additive.  This will change the color and texture… if you are crafty/artistic, you could faux paint the tiles to be exactly what you want. (assuming tile is what you want…) — be safe, flip ^___^ ^.^/ ==u==

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I am in the process of bathroom renovation now, and just bought Heatweave electric warming mats from Watts.  I have not installed them yet, but am told they will fit within the 1/4" or so of thinset under the tile, so it will not raise the profile of the floor.  The heating wires are very thin, maybe 1/8".  You do not cut the heating wires to length, instead you order the width and length of mat required from their standard stock of assorted sizes. You need to bury a power lead and thermal sensor lead in the thinset from the mat to a wall where your thermostat and power supply (120VAC or 240VAC) is located.   You can get a programmable thermostat with day/night/7 day settings.  (about $120 !) All the parts to do an approx 4 ft x 7 ft area cost about $650.   (that is 30% below list).  The system appears to be very DIY friendly – you can order a videotape and their website is very complete with full docs on all the elements. http://www.wattsradiant.com/heatweave.html Good luck! — Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it). > Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile > would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above > the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets > chilly in there. > So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile > system. > Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it > myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my > question is this: > Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only > pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need > the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the > tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear > up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) > Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For > example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and > cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the > thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or > during the day)

Response:

I am in the same situation.  I bought the house new, but it was already finished.   My front foyer has shinny glazed white tiles with white grout. The shinny glazing is like teflon coated ice when it gets wet (and in the foyer, that is true whenever it rains), and the white grout has not been white since we moved in.  Also, white- on-white really doesn’t suit the house style wise. So, I am just wondering what "a bunch of money" is?    :) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the > bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have > them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built > when we found it).

Response:

When we bought our new house, we did not like the tile they had in the bathrooms (including the master) so we paid a bunch of money to have them tear it out and put in tile we liked (the house was already built when we found it). Well, we messed up big time because we did not consider what the tile would be like in the winter.  For example, our master bath is above the garage, AND at the farthest point from the furnace, so it gets chilly in there. So, we are kicking ourselves for not thinking of a radiant tile system. Clearly, electric is the way to go here.  I will probably install it myself (not anytime soon though…I have a basement to finish!) but my question is this: Do I need to tear up ALL of the tile in the bathroom or can I only pull up the main ones in the middle of the floor where we really need the heat?  In other words, how much height does the wire add to the tile level?  Would these tiles be flush with the tiles I didn’t tear up? (I have not installed a tile floor before) Also, how long does it take for these systems to heat the floor?  For example, if I went into the bathroom in the middle of the night and cut the system on, how long before I felt heat? (I would only want the thermstat to cut on in the morning and evening, but not overnight or during the day)

Response:

Question:

We have a problem with banging water pipes inside the wall behind one of our showers.  (Machine gun like noise.)  This is in a fairly new house (2 years old) and the problem has existed since shortly after we first moved in. This particular shower has two water heads on opposite walls.  Each head has its own water control.  If we turn both heads on at the same time we get the banging.  If we use just one head or the other, no banging. Our builder’s plumber said the problem is due to air in the lines and we would need a device called an Air Hammer to fix it.  They installed two air hammers – one each on the hot/cold water line.  They were installed inside the vanity cabinet below one of the sinks in our mater bathroom – a few feet from the shower.  That seemed to fix the problem – the banging stopped immediately.  Until… About two months later the banging started again intermittently.  A few more months later we noticed that the cold water in the sink above the air hammers comes out slightly rusty colored when it is turned on the first time each morning. So the air hammers worked for a couple of months but now the banging is frequently back and the cold water in the sink is rusty.  Please help with your knowledge and advice.  What is causing this banging problem, why is the cold water in the sink now rusty and what should we do about all of this? Peter

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We have a problem with banging water pipes inside the wall behind one > of our showers.  (Machine gun like noise.)  This is in a fairly new > house (2 years old) and the problem has existed since shortly after we > first moved in. > This particular shower has two water heads on opposite walls.  Each > head has its own water control.  If we turn both heads on at the same > time we get the banging.  If we use just one head or the other, no > banging. > Our builder’s plumber said the problem is due to air in the lines and > we would need a device called an Air Hammer to fix it.  They installed > two air hammers – one each on the hot/cold water line.  They were > installed inside the vanity cabinet below one of the sinks in our > mater bathroom – a few feet from the shower.  That seemed to fix the > problem – the banging stopped immediately.  Until… > About two months later the banging started again intermittently.  A > few more months later we noticed that the cold water in the sink above > the air hammers comes out slightly rusty colored when it is turned on > the first time each morning. > So the air hammers worked for a couple of months but now the banging > is frequently back and the cold water in the sink is rusty.  Please > help with your knowledge and advice.  What is causing this banging > problem, why is the cold water in the sink now rusty and what should > we do about all of this? > Peter

It sounds as you might have the type of arrestors that allow the air to be absorbed into the water. They require you to shut off and drain the water from the plumbing periodically to replace the air. That air provides compressibility which prevents the hammer. The rust may not be due to the arrestors, but then if they have any galvanized nipples etc. that would cause rusty water. Replacing the air may not stop the rusty water. Gary Quality Water Associates — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

>It sounds as you might have the type of arrestors that allow the air to >be absorbed into the water. They require you to shut off and drain the >water from the plumbing periodically to replace the air. That air >provides compressibility which prevents the hammer. The rust may not be >due to the arrestors, but then if they have any galvanized nipples etc. >that would cause rusty water. Replacing the air may not stop the rusty >water. >Gary >Quality Water Associates

Gary – thanks for the reply.  The air hammers we have can be seen at this web site.  What do you think? http://bradyproducts.com/products.htm#no-nok Peter

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->It sounds as you might have the type of arrestors that allow the air to >be absorbed into the water. They require you to shut off and drain the >water from the plumbing periodically to replace the air. That air >provides compressibility which prevents the hammer. The rust may not be >due to the arrestors, but then if they have any galvanized nipples etc. >that would cause rusty water. Replacing the air may not stop the rusty >water. >Gary >Quality Water Associates > Gary – thanks for the reply.  The air hammers we have can be seen at > this web site.  What do you think? > http://bradyproducts.com/products.htm#no-nok > Peter

They are not the type I described. Check and adjust the air pressure in them and tighten the valve stem in case they’re leaking off the air. They look like they’re galvanized or have chrome on them. Maybe nothing protecting the inside and that may allow rusting. I’ve seen a couple of those that weren’t large enough to stop all hammer but they were installed on well systems. Gary Quality Water Associates — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Question:

> LOL, both put a smile on my face, thanks!

Glad that you enjoyed it :)

Response:

LOL, both put a smile on my face, thanks! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > A chubby bloke was reading the paper one day lamenting the fact that his > doctor > has ordered him to lose 75 pounds. Next thing he sees is an > advertisement for > a "Guaranteed" weight loss program. "Guaranteed like heck" he thinks to > himself. "But let’s see what they think they can do. He calls them on > the phone >  and subscribes to the 3-day, 10-pound weight loss program. > The next day there comes a knock at his door, and when he answers, there > stands > before him a > voluptuous, athletic 19-year-old babe dressed in nothing but a pair of > Nike’s > and a signhanging around her neck. She introduces herself as a > representative > of the weight loss company. The sign reads, "If you can catch me, you > can have > me." Well, without a second thought he takes off after her. A few miles > later, > huffing and puffing, he finally catches her and has his way with her. > After > they are through, he thinks to himself with a nod, "I like the way this > company >  does business." > For the next two days, the same girl shows up and the same thing happens > each > time. On the fourth day, he weighs himself, and sure enough he has lost > 10 > pounds. Deciding that he likes his somewhat slender physique, not to > mention > the method of "treatment," he calls the company back and subscribes to > their 5- > day, 20-pound weight loss program. He thinks that losing 20 pounds in > only 5 > days seems like a lot, but he is intrigued by what their "workout" > schedule > might be like this time. > As expected, the next day there comes a knock at his door. When he > answers it, > there stands a 22 year old knockout dressed in nothing but a pair of > Reebok’s > and a sign around her neck. She is simply stunning and the most > beautiful woman > he has ever seen. She introduces herself as a representative of the > weight loss > company. The sign reads "If you can catch me, you can have me." He’s out > the > door like a shot. This gal is in excellent shape and it takes a while to > catch > her. But when he does it is worth every cramp and wheeze. > He is really looking forward to the next four days….For the next four > days, > the same girl shows up and the same thing happens each time, much to his > delight. On the sixth day, he weighs himself and, unbelievably, he has > lost > another 20 pounds. "I love this company," he thinks to himself, "I never > knew > losing weight could be so easy and so much fun!" > Feeling much better about himself, he decides to go for broke and > subscribe to > the company’s 7-day, 50-pound weight loss > program. "Are you sure, sir?" asks the representative on the phone. > "This is > our most rigorous program." > "Absolutely," says he, "I love your program. I haven’t felt this good in > years!" > The next day there comes a knock at his door and he enthusiastically > answers > it. There stands before him a 200-pound perfect specimen of a man > dressed in > nothing but racing spikes and a sign around his neck. He introduces > himself as > a representative of the weight loss company. The sign reads, "If I can > catch you, I can have you."   > THE JOKE THAT SPARES NOBODY: Speeding > A blonde was driving down a highway and all of a sudden a cop sitting on > the > road side turns on his flashing red lights. The blonde seeing the red > lights > pulls over to the side of the road and waits for the cop. > When the cop gets there he says to the blonde, "Lady you were doing 43 > miles > per hour in a 30 mile an hour zone." > The blonde says, "No I wasn’t. The sign back there said 43." > To this the cop snaps back, "Lady, look … that was a highway number > sign, > this is highway 43 and your doing 43 miles an hour in a 30 mile an hour > zone." > The blonde repeats her story again claiming she was not speeding. The > cop > scratches his head and returns to his car to ask his bald partner what > he > should do. > After telling his bald partner the story, his partner says, "Bill, you > better > give her a ticket. The 401 is just up ahead and then we’ll never catch > her."

Response:

A chubby bloke was reading the paper one day lamenting the fact that his doctor has ordered him to lose 75 pounds. Next thing he sees is an advertisement for a "Guaranteed" weight loss program. "Guaranteed like heck" he thinks to himself. "But let’s see what they think they can do. He calls them on the phone  and subscribes to the 3-day, 10-pound weight loss program. The next day there comes a knock at his door, and when he answers, there stands before him a voluptuous, athletic 19-year-old babe dressed in nothing but a pair of Nike’s and a signhanging around her neck. She introduces herself as a representative of the weight loss company. The sign reads, "If you can catch me, you can have me." Well, without a second thought he takes off after her. A few miles later, huffing and puffing, he finally catches her and has his way with her. After they are through, he thinks to himself with a nod, "I like the way this company  does business." For the next two days, the same girl shows up and the same thing happens each time. On the fourth day, he weighs himself, and sure enough he has lost 10 pounds. Deciding that he likes his somewhat slender physique, not to mention the method of "treatment," he calls the company back and subscribes to their 5- day, 20-pound weight loss program. He thinks that losing 20 pounds in only 5 days seems like a lot, but he is intrigued by what their "workout" schedule might be like this time. As expected, the next day there comes a knock at his door. When he answers it, there stands a 22 year old knockout dressed in nothing but a pair of Reebok’s and a sign around her neck. She is simply stunning and the most beautiful woman he has ever seen. She introduces herself as a representative of the weight loss company. The sign reads "If you can catch me, you can have me." He’s out the door like a shot. This gal is in excellent shape and it takes a while to catch her. But when he does it is worth every cramp and wheeze. He is really looking forward to the next four days….For the next four days, the same girl shows up and the same thing happens each time, much to his delight. On the sixth day, he weighs himself and, unbelievably, he has lost another 20 pounds. "I love this company," he thinks to himself, "I never knew losing weight could be so easy and so much fun!" Feeling much better about himself, he decides to go for broke and subscribe to the company’s 7-day, 50-pound weight loss program. "Are you sure, sir?" asks the representative on the phone. "This is our most rigorous program." "Absolutely," says he, "I love your program. I haven’t felt this good in years!" The next day there comes a knock at his door and he enthusiastically answers it. There stands before him a 200-pound perfect specimen of a man dressed in nothing but racing spikes and a sign around his neck. He introduces himself as a representative of the weight loss company. The sign reads, "If I can catch you, I can have you."   THE JOKE THAT SPARES NOBODY: Speeding A blonde was driving down a highway and all of a sudden a cop sitting on the road side turns on his flashing red lights. The blonde seeing the red lights pulls over to the side of the road and waits for the cop. When the cop gets there he says to the blonde, "Lady you were doing 43 miles per hour in a 30 mile an hour zone." The blonde says, "No I wasn’t. The sign back there said 43." To this the cop snaps back, "Lady, look … that was a highway number sign, this is highway 43 and your doing 43 miles an hour in a 30 mile an hour zone." The blonde repeats her story again claiming she was not speeding. The cop scratches his head and returns to his car to ask his bald partner what he should do. After telling his bald partner the story, his partner says, "Bill, you better give her a ticket. The 401 is just up ahead and then we’ll never catch her."

Response:

The other day I wrote a shortened account of something that actually happened to me. I was hoping for a reply, but maybe you didn’t see it. Here it is again. When it comes to women and matters of the heart, my name is Moby Stupid. I have a friend of many years, who happens to be of the female persuasion, say to me when I told her about my AD’s side effects of decreased libido: "Good!  Now maybe you’ll stop thinking with your little head all the time, and start thinking with your big head",   poking her finger on the side of that thing that holds my face. For this friend of mine to say that to me at just that point in time made quite a dramatic impact on me, and I was stunned into silence. "Naaaaahhh. Never happen",  I shot back. "Why not?" she asked. "Because!   The Little General would just go to the submarine races." Is it just me, or does anyone else find this funny? When I wrote it I started laughing almost uncontrollably, and thought for sure someone will make at least a passing comment on it. I guess what I thought was funny about it was how the psychological aspect of sex (for men at least) seems to have a mind of its own.  A subliminal mind, represented by the reference to water (a symbol of the subconscious mind in dreams)  and submarine races ( activity, but beneath the surface, out of sight, going on while the above ground creatures merrily pursue there boring daily routine,  unaware of the unseen.) What I meant when I said " the Little General would just go to the submarine races." was that if I didn’t express the thoughts of my little head in normal little head ways, then the Little General will find other subconscious ways of being heard.  For me part of it manifested as intense frustration, and general irritability, but not knowing why or where it was coming from. Excuse me while my brain farts … tropeau

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > The other day I wrote a shortened account of something that actually > happened to me. > I was hoping for a reply, but maybe you didn’t see it. > Here it is again. > When it comes to women and matters of the heart, my name is Moby Stupid. > I have a friend of many years, who happens to be of the female persuasion, > say to me when I told her about my AD’s side effects of decreased libido: > "Good!  Now maybe you’ll stop thinking with your little head all the time, > and > start thinking with your big head",   poking her finger on the side of that > thing that holds my face. > For this friend of mine to say that to me at just that point in time made > quite a dramatic impact on me, and I was stunned into silence. > "Naaaaahhh. Never happen",  I shot back. > "Why not?" she asked. > "Because!   The Little General would just go to the submarine races." > Is it just me, or does anyone else find this funny? > When I wrote it I started laughing almost uncontrollably, and thought for > sure someone will make at least a passing comment on it.

i guess its just an inside joke!!!  ;))))))) my bf is obsessed with his ‘little general’ i dont know why…… so im kind of inured….. he can work the word ‘penis’ into a conversation more times a day than anyone else ive ever met…. if someone says, ‘whats that noise?’ he’ll say "my penis?" "where did *that* come from?" "my penis!" on the taco bell commercials he changes the song to "my penis….. my penis….." instead of "gorditas gorditas" its kinda funny. i enjoy the penis and its peculiarities. > I guess what I thought was funny about it was how the psychological aspect > of sex (for men at least) seems to have a mind of its own.  A subliminal > mind, represented by the reference to water (a symbol of the subconscious > mind in dreams)  and submarine races ( activity, but beneath the surface, > out of sight, going on while the above ground creatures merrily pursue there > boring daily routine,  unaware of the unseen.)

jamies penis has its own email account, and frequently plots against my bf. just cant trust the little buggers. > What I meant when I said " the Little General would just go to the submarine > races." > was that if I didn’t express the thoughts of my little head in normal little > head ways, then the Little General will find other subconscious ways of > being heard.  For me part of it manifested as intense frustration, and > general irritability, but not knowing why or where it was coming from.

penises get passive aggressive too. anyway, i thought it was funny. anna > Excuse me while my brain farts … > tropeau

– "blessed am i to dwell in this beautiful temple."

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->my bf is obsessed with his ‘little general’ i dont know why…… >so im kind of inured….. >he can work the word ‘penis’ into a conversation more times a day than >anyone else ive ever met…. if someone says, ‘whats that noise?’ he’ll >say "my penis?" >"where did *that* come from?" >"my penis!" >on the taco bell commercials he changes the song to "my penis….. my >penis….." instead of "gorditas gorditas" >its kinda funny. i enjoy the penis and its peculiarities. >jamies penis has its own email account, and frequently plots against my >bf. just cant trust the little buggers. >anyway, i thought it was funny. >anna

Anna I see your bf’s little general used to hang out at that dive called the Harry Palms It was a real popular place for young adolescent males. Your bf sounds like he has himself well in …er…um… hand. (much humor intended only) tropeau

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> Anna > I see your bf’s little general used to hang out at that dive called the > Harry Palms > It was a real popular place for young adolescent males. > Your bf sounds like he has himself well in …er…um… hand. > (much humor intended only)

no doubt. its kinda funny. thing is, usually guys who talk about it all the time are losers… hes the only one ive met who can back it up :) you can brag about your cannon if ya know how to shoot if ya know what i means :) ))))) i know jamies penis would turn on jamie in a second though.  its a tricky little bugger with a devious little attitude of its own. it never listens to a damn thing he says. it longs to be rid of ‘the big stupid one’ so it can strike out on its own. its like pinky and the brain, ever watch that cartoon?? "what are we gonna to today, brain???"  "same thing as every week, TAKE OVER THE WORLD…" anna > tropeau

– "blessed am i to dwell in this beautiful temple."

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >no doubt. its kinda funny. thing is, usually guys who talk about it all >the time are losers… hes the only one ive met who can back it up :) >you can brag about your cannon if ya know how to shoot if ya know what i >means :) ))))) >i know jamies penis would turn on jamie in a second though.  its a >tricky little bugger with a devious little attitude of its own. it never >listens to a damn thing he says. it longs to be rid of ‘the big stupid >one’ so it can strike out on its own. >its like pinky and the brain, ever watch that cartoon?? "what are we >gonna to today, brain???"  "same thing as every week, TAKE OVER THE >WORLD…" >anna

Wow! You really do understand the very inner workings of that devious little mind! I’m impressed! funny, funny stuff!!!

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I guess I need to ramble here. About humor. About how it has saved my life so many times.  How I have used it to save me in so many ways. I’ve used humor as a weapon to save me.  Those were the bad old days. When I had to protect my fragile self.  It felt so good to laugh.  It was a different laugh from the one that I laugh today.   It was the laughter of victory, I think.  It was the laughter of someone who had just escaped death.  Sarcasm and satire would probably be the term I would use here.  Black humor, the kind that makes you laugh from the depths of the pit.  A life saving thing at the time. Then I had to use humor as an escape.  Those were pretty bad days too. Detachment from real feelings … lost in a fun world … I remember the first time I laughed after my brain melted in my head … it was at an experience that my brother told me about (Gawd I love him for that moment), and the second time I laughed that hard was months later when I saw the movie, "Planes, Trains, and Automobiles."  I will never ever forget that moment either.  It felt so good to be able to laugh. :-) ))) I’ve so appreciated humor since that time.  I feel it has VALUE.  Just so much value. This is why I appreciated Jim Tousignant.  It’s why I appreciate so many people that I’ve met on the ng’s … I have to admit. With all of the people I have met in my lifetime (don’t even try to add them up), I have never met funnier people than I have on the depression ng’s and in my family (all depressives). It’s like depressives feel things so intensely that they can relate stories in a humorous way that are SO ON THE MARK, that it hits the very heart of even those who have never experienced real depression. It’s like depressives have lived every single bad moment known to mankind and when they can put a funny spin on it … the whole world can relate because even normies have to grieve, get angry, feel fearful. I just don’t know how to express the gratitude that I feel towards every single person who has ever made me laugh.   I just don’t know how to thank them.  Can’t make them feel what I feel.  So all I can do is say… Thank you. That is all. Anne — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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Ya know Anne… You sure do have a way with words.  I agree with you about the comments you made about the people you have met on asd and asdr.  They have changed my life where now I can honestly say that I have a future again.  There were many times when I was in doubt.  And yes humor is the best meds you could ever take to help fight this depression that we all have.  My dear friend Kimberly showed me this 18 months ago.  She pulled me out of one of the deepest pits that I was ever in.  Most of my friends that I now have I’ve met online, mostly on asd.  And even now, when life is actually enjoyable again they are still the ones that mean the most to me. That is why it hurts me so much to hear that Jim has passed away. I was going to visit Gale and Jim this summer.  Now I will just be visiting Gale.  It’s sad to see what life does to us sometimes. But we must all move on.  Jim would have wanted it that way. So anyway Anne, again you have given us some of your wisdom. Something I will always cherish.  Take care hon.  And everyone on asd and asdr… just remember that things will get better. You may not think they will but I have been there and I have seen what life has to offer.  And it is more then you could ever imagine.  Love ya all,  Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I guess I need to ramble here. >About humor. >About how it has saved my life so many times.  How I have used it to >save me in so many ways. >I’ve used humor as a weapon to save me.  Those were the bad old days. >When I had to protect my fragile self.  It felt so good to laugh.  It >was a different laugh from the one that I laugh today.   It was the >laughter of victory, I think.  It was the laughter of someone who had >just escaped death.  Sarcasm and satire would probably be the term I >would use here.  Black humor, the kind that makes you laugh from the >depths of the pit.  A life saving thing at the time. >Then I had to use humor as an escape.  Those were pretty bad days too. >Detachment from real feelings … lost in a fun world … I remember >the first time I laughed after my brain melted in my head … it was >at an experience that my brother told me about (Gawd I love him for >that moment), and the second time I laughed that hard was months later >when I saw the movie, "Planes, Trains, and Automobiles."  I will never >ever forget that moment either.  It felt so good to be able to laugh. >:-)))) >I’ve so appreciated humor since that time.  I feel it has VALUE.  Just >so much value. >This is why I appreciated Jim Tousignant.  It’s why I appreciate so >many people that I’ve met on the ng’s … >I have to admit. >With all of the people I have met in my lifetime (don’t even try to >add them up), I have never met funnier people than I have on the >depression ng’s and in my family (all depressives). >It’s like depressives feel things so intensely that they can relate >stories in a humorous way that are SO ON THE MARK, that it hits the >very heart of even those who have never experienced real depression. >It’s like depressives have lived every single bad moment known to >mankind and when they can put a funny spin on it … the whole world >can relate because even normies have to grieve, get angry, feel >fearful. >I just don’t know how to express the gratitude that I feel towards >every single person who has ever made me laugh.   I just don’t know >how to thank them.  Can’t make them feel what I feel.  So all I can do >is say… >Thank you. >That is all. >Anne >– >For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

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Another Old Golfer "How was your golf game, dear?" asked Jack’s wife Tracy. "Well, I was hitting pretty well, but my eyesight’s gotten so bad I couldn’t see where the ball went." "But you’re seventy-five years old, Jack!" admonished his wife, "Why don’t you take my brother Scott along?" "But he’s eighty-five and doesn’t even play golf anymore," protested Jack. "But he’s got perfect eyesight.  He could watch your ball," Tracy pointed out. The next day Jack teed off with Scott looking on.  Jack swung, and the ball disappeared down the middle of the fairway.  "Do you see it?" asked Jack. "Yup," Scott answered. "Well, where is it?" yelled Jack, peering off into the distance. "I forgot." Re:        HOSTAGES A group of Arab Terrorists burst into the conference room at the Ramada Hotel where the American Bar Association was holding its Annual Convention. More than a hundred lawyers were taken as hostages. The terrorist leader announced that, unless their demands were met, they would release one lawyer every hour. Bill’s pages: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/bs16 http://members.xoom.com/bs16/ 1. Addicted Internet Junkie ! ! ! ! 1.   A friend stops to see you since your phone has been busy—–for a year!!!!!" 2.   You forgot how to work the TV remote control. 3.   You see something funny and scream, "LOL,  LOL." 4.   You tell everyone, that after surgery, your mom went to ICQ ……instead of ICU! 5.   You sign off and your screen says you were on for 3 days and 45 minutes. 6.   You placed the refrigerator beside your computer. 7.   You buy a laptop and a cell phone so you can  have ICQ in your car. 8.   Tech support calls YOU for help. 9.    You beg your friends to get an account so you can "hang out." 10.  You get a second phone line just to call out for pizza. 11.  You purchase a vanity car license plate with your screen name on it. 12.  You say "he he he he" or "heh heh heh" instead of laughing. 13.  You say "SCROLL UP" when someone asks what it was you said. 14.  You find out divorce papers had been served on you 6 months ago. 15.  You talk on the phone with the same person you are sending an instant message to. 16.  You look at an annoying person off line and wish that you had your ignore button handy. 17.  You start to experience "withdrawal" after not being online for awhile. 19.  You sit on ICQ for 6 hours for that certain special person to sign on. 20.  You get up in the morning and go online before getting your coffee. 21.  …..You end your sentences with…..three or more periods……. 22.  Your shoes are suddenly 2 sizes too small. 23.  You think faster than the computer.   <—-Not difficult for me 24.  You enter a group and get greeted by 10 people with {{{hugs}}}. 25.  Being called a newbie is a major insult to you. 26.  You’re on the phone and say LOL. 27.  Your teacher or boss recommends a drug test for the blood shot eyes. 28.  Your answering machine/voice mail sounds a little like this…."BRB.  Leave your S/N and I’ll TTYL ASAP". 29.  You get up at 2:00 AM to go to the bathroom and turn the computer on instead. 30.  You need to be pried from your computer by the Jaws-of-life.

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The rich industrialist from the North was horrified to find the southern fisherman lying lazily beside his boat, smoking a pipe. "Why aren’t you out fishing?" said the industrialist. "Because I have caught enough fish for the day," said the fisherman. "Why don’t you catch some more?" "What would I do with them?" "You could earn more money," was the industrialist’s reply. "With that you could have a motor fixed to your boat and go into deeper waters and catch more fish. Then you would make enough to buy nylon nets. These would bring you more fish and more money. Soon you would have enough money to own two boats . . . maybe even a fleet of boats. Then you would be a rich man like me." "What would I do then?" asked the fisherman. "Then you could really enjoy life." "What do you think I am doing right now?"

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>>A Code Of Ethical Behavior For Patients ><http://www.listbot.com/subscribe/PainSupportList> >Join our Pain Support List,just click on the link above >To join us in chat the ICQ#15222572,the link to download ICQ ><http://www.icq.com> >My homepage ><http://www.expage.com/page/PainSupport/>

Don’t Forget The Door to Exam Room: "To expedite our clinical process, please provide the examining physician with a correct diagnosis prior to treatment." Or the Door on the HMO Exam Room; "Please Diagnose Yourself"  (they won’t even pay for a good sign)

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->A Code Of Ethical Behavior For Patients > 1.  Do not expect your doctor to share your discomfort. >     Involvement with the patient’s suffering might cause him to lose >valuable >     scientific objectivity. > 2.  Be cheerful at all times!! >      Your doctor leads a busy and trying life and requires all the >gentleness >      and reassurance he can get. > 3.  Try to suffer from the disease for which you are being treated. >      Remember that your doctor has a professional reputation to uphold. > 4.  Do not complain if the treatment fails to bring relief. >     You must believe that your doctor has achieved a deep insight into >     the true nature of your illness, which transcends any mere permanent >     disability you may have experienced. > 5.  Never ask your doctor to explain what he is doing or why he is doing >it. >      It is presumptuous to assume that such profound matters could be >      explained in terms that you would understand. > 6.  Submit to novel, experimental treatment readily. >      Though the surgery may not benefit you directly, the resulting >research >      paper will surely be of widespread interest. > 7.  Pay your medical bills promptly and willingly. >      You should consider it a privilege to contribute, however modestly, >to >      the well-being of physicians and other humanitarians. > 8.  Do not suffer from ailments that you cannot afford. >      It is sheer arrogance to contract illnesses that are beyond your >means. > 9.  Never reveal any of the shortcomings that have come to light in the >      course of treatment by your doctor. >      The patient-doctor relationship is a privileged one, and you have a >      sacred duty to protect him from exposure. > 10. Never die while in your doctor’s presence or under his direct care. >      This will only cause him needless inconvenience and embarrassment. >– ><http://www.listbot.com/subscribe/PainSupportList> >Join our Pain Support List,just click on the link above >To join us in chat the ICQ#15222572,the link to download ICQ ><http://www.icq.com> >My homepage ><http://www.expage.com/page/PainSupport/>

About a hundred of them.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->A Code Of Ethical Behavior For Patients > 1.  Do not expect your doctor to share your discomfort. >     Involvement with the patient’s suffering might cause him to lose >valuable >     scientific objectivity. > 2.  Be cheerful at all times!! >      Your doctor leads a busy and trying life and requires all the >gentleness >      and reassurance he can get. > 3.  Try to suffer from the disease for which you are being treated. >      Remember that your doctor has a professional reputation to uphold. > 4.  Do not complain if the treatment fails to bring relief. >     You must believe that your doctor has achieved a deep insight into >     the true nature of your illness, which transcends any mere permanent >     disability you may have experienced. > 5.  Never ask your doctor to explain what he is doing or why he is doing it. >      It is presumptuous to assume that such profound matters could be >      explained in terms that you would understand. > 6.  Submit to novel, experimental treatment readily. >      Though the surgery may not benefit you directly, the resulting research >      paper will surely be of widespread interest. > 7.  Pay your medical bills promptly and willingly. >      You should consider it a privilege to contribute, however modestly, to >      the well-being of physicians and other humanitarians. > 8.  Do not suffer from ailments that you cannot afford. >      It is sheer arrogance to contract illnesses that are beyond your means. > 9.  Never reveal any of the shortcomings that have come to light in the >      course of treatment by your doctor. >      The patient-doctor relationship is a privileged one, and you have a >      sacred duty to protect him from exposure. > 10. Never die while in your doctor’s presence or under his direct care. >      This will only cause him needless inconvenience and embarrassment.

– <http://www.listbot.com/subscribe/PainSupportList> Join our Pain Support List,just click on the link above To join us in chat the ICQ#15222572,the link to download ICQ <http://www.icq.com> My homepage <http://www.expage.com/page/PainSupport/>

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Toddler Miracle Diet! The trouble with most diets is:        1.  you don’t get enough to eat (the starvation diet)        2.  you don’t get enough variation (the liquid diet)        3.  you go broke (the all-meat diet). Consequently, 95% of people tend to cheat on their diets, quit after 3 days, or go right back to stuffing their faces after it’s all over.  Is there nothing you can do but give up and tell your friends you have a gland problem? Here it is – the new Toddler Miracle Diet!  You may have noticed that most two-year-olds are trim.  After consultation with pediatricians, a new and inexpensive diet that takes advantage of the toddler’s secrets is now available to you.  Good luck! MONDAYS & THURSDAYS:        Breakfast – One scrambled egg, one piece of toast with grape        jelly.  Eat 2 bites of egg, using your fingers;  dump the rest on the        floor.  Take  1 bite of toast, then smear the jelly over your face        and clothes.        Lunch – Four crayons (any color), a handful of potato chips,        and a  glass of milk (3 sips only, then spill the rest).        Dinner – A dry stick, two pennies and a nickel, 4 sips of stale beer.        Bedtime Snack – Toast piece of bread and toss it on the kitchen        floor. TUESDAYS & FRIDAYS:        Breakfast – Pick up stale toast from kitchen floor and eat it. Drink        half bottle of vanilla extract or one vial of vegetable dye.        Lunch – Half a tube of "Pulsating Pink" lipstick and a cigarette (to        be eaten, not smoked).  One ice cube, if desired.        Afternoon Snack – Lick an all-day sucker until sticky, take outside,        and drop in dirt.  Retrieve and continue slurping until it is clean        again.  Then bring inside and drop on the rug.        Dinner – A rock or an uncooked bean, which should be thrust up        your left nostril.  Pour iced tea over mashed potatoes; eat with a        spoon. WEDNESDAYS & SATURDAYS:        Breakfast – Two pancakes with plenty of syrup, eat with fingers, rub        in hair.  Glass of milk: drink half, stuff pancakes in glass. After        breakfast, pick up yesterday’s sucker from rug, lick off fuzz, and        put it on the cushion of your best chair.        Lunch – Three matches, peanutbutter and jelly sandwich. Spit several        bites onto the floor.  Pour glass of milk on table and slurp up.        Dinner – Dish of ice cream, handful of potato chips, some wine,        and coffee. SUNDAYS:        Breakfast – A quarter-tube of toothpaste (any flavor), a bit of soap,        and an olive.  Pour a glass of milk over bowl of cornflakes, add a        half-cup of sugar.  Once cereal is soggy, drink milk and feed cereal        to dog.        Lunch – Eat crumbs off kitchen floor and dining room carpet.  Find        that sucker and finish eating it.        Dinner – A glass of spaghetti and chocolate milk.  Leave meatball on        plate.  Stick of mascara for dessert.

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> Toddler Miracle Diet!

SNIP VGB! You have some of the best humor! Always helps… -neondon- — Remove MAPSON from address to email.

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> Toddler Miracle Diet!

snipped very sensible dietary advice Is it OK to substitute coloured chalk for the crayons?? aussie annieb

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Yep, Aussie-Annie!!       Chalk is a good substitution when you run out of crayons;  in fact I think there’s even less cholesterol!!    But I hafta say,  I’m still hungry on this diet!!   Any ideas to fill in for when I get empty???  ;-) Hugz,   hungry-Jane

| |> Toddler Miracle Diet! — |snipped very sensible dietary advice | |Is it OK to substitute coloured chalk for the crayons?? | |aussie annieb | |

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Throwing the remote control in the toilet must have somthing to do with it. My nephew is 2 and 1/2, he has gone through 3 remotes already and is very fit and trim. Jefe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Yep, Aussie-Annie!! >      Chalk is a good substitution when you run >out of crayons;  in fact I think there’s even >less cholesterol!!    But I hafta say,  I’m still >hungry on this diet!!   Any ideas to fill in for >when I get empty???  ;-) >Hugz,   hungry-Jane >| >|> Toddler Miracle Diet! >– >|snipped very sensible dietary advice >| >|Is it OK to substitute coloured chalk for the crayons?? >| >|aussie annieb >| >|

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Okey, Dokey!!       So all I hafta do to be fit & trim is keep retrieving remotes from the john???  (and stay on the diet)        May I practice first with the drawer full of remotes that have lost their "better-halves" over the years???? ;-) Hugz,  Jane |Throwing the remote control in the toilet must have somthing to do with it. |My nephew is 2 and 1/2, he has gone through 3 remotes already and is very |fit and trim. | |Jefe |

|>Yep, Aussie-Annie!! |>      Chalk is a good substitution when you run |>out of crayons;  in fact I think there’s even |>less cholesterol!!    But I hafta say,  I’m still |>hungry on this diet!!   Any ideas to fill in for |>when I get empty???  ;-) |>Hugz,   hungry-Jane

|>| |>|> Toddler Miracle Diet! — |>– |>|snipped very sensible dietary advice |>| |>|Is it OK to substitute coloured chalk for the crayons?? |>| |>|aussie annieb |>| |>| |> | |

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LMAO, Now my question to you Jefe, Is, Did he flush them also. Or did he just leave the evidence for you to look at amd ,and, and….well whatever you did…. Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Throwing the remote control in the toilet must have somthing to do with it. >My nephew is 2 and 1/2, he has gone through 3 remotes already and is very >fit and trim. >Jefe >Yep, Aussie-Annie!! >      Chalk is a good substitution when you run >out of crayons;  in fact I think there’s even >less cholesterol!!    But I hafta say,  I’m still >hungry on this diet!!   Any ideas to fill in for >when I get empty???  ;-) >Hugz,   hungry-Jane >| >|> Toddler Miracle Diet! >– >|snipped very sensible dietary advice >| >|Is it OK to substitute coloured chalk for the crayons?? >| >|aussie annieb >| >|

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He left the evidence–but hey man, he ain’t my kid!!!  So it ends there with the remote Jefe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >LMAO, Now my question to you Jefe, Is, Did he flush them also. Or did >he just leave the evidence for you to look at amd ,and, and….well >whatever you did…. >Mark >Throwing the remote control in the toilet must have somthing to do with it. >My nephew is 2 and 1/2, he has gone through 3 remotes already and is very >fit and trim. >Jefe >>Yep, Aussie-Annie!! >>      Chalk is a good substitution when you run >>out of crayons;  in fact I think there’s even >>less cholesterol!!    But I hafta say,  I’m still >>hungry on this diet!!   Any ideas to fill in for >>when I get empty???  ;-) >>Hugz,   hungry-Jane >>| >>|> Toddler Miracle Diet! >>– >>|snipped very sensible dietary advice >>| >>|Is it OK to substitute coloured chalk for the crayons?? >>| >>|aussie annieb >>| >>|

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Alittle humor for all to enjoy: Two rednecks were hunting and one of them shot a deer. They started to take it back to their truck. They were pulling it by the hind feet. That made the fur snag on the grass, making it hard to pull. Another hunter, seeing their dilemma, told them it would be easier to pull the deer by the rack. That way the fur wouldn’t get snagged on the grass. The rednecks thanked the man, and he went on. After a little discussion, they decided to drag it by the rack. After a while one of the rednecks turned to the other and said,"Ya know, this is a lot easier to drag now." The other one said,"Yeah, but we sure are getting a long way away from the truck." Gatorboy

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Being a semi-redneck, I find that funny… You know the last words you ever hear a redneck say?  "Hey ya’ll watch this!"  Give him lots of room. –paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Alittle humor for all to enjoy: > Two rednecks were hunting and one of them shot a deer. They started to take > it back to their truck. They were pulling it by the hind feet. That made the > fur snag on the grass, making it hard to pull. Another hunter, seeing their > dilemma, told them it would be easier to pull the deer by the rack. That way > the fur wouldn’t get snagged on the grass. The rednecks thanked the man, and > he went on. After a little discussion, they decided to drag it by the rack. > After a while one of the rednecks turned to the other and said,"Ya know, > this is a lot easier to drag now." The other one said,"Yeah, but we sure are > getting a long way away from the truck." > Gatorboy

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Old archers never die, they just can’t straighten their arrows. Craig H > Alittle humor for all to enjoy: > Two rednecks were hunting and one of them shot a deer. They started to take > it back to their truck. They were pulling it by the hind feet. That made the > fur snag on the grass, making it hard to pull. Another hunter, seeing their > dilemma, told them it would be easier to pull the deer by the rack. That way > the fur wouldn’t get snagged on the grass. The rednecks thanked the man, and > he went on. After a little discussion, they decided to drag it by the rack. > After a while one of the rednecks turned to the other and said,"Ya know, > this is a lot easier to drag now." The other one said,"Yeah, but we sure are > getting a long way away from the truck." > Gatorboy

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writes: >POORLY WORDED ADS

(snip) I had a very hard time reading this.  I kept having to stop to get a tissue to wipe the tears of laughter from my eyes!  These are great! Got any more?

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I could use a good laugh, but I never saw "Humor," only the reply.  Am I the only one?   Levity is the dearth of gravity.  Brevity is the height of clarity.  

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Hi Ron.  I’m the one that posted the "Humor."   It’s a collection of poorly worded advertisements and announcements.  I’m glad it made a hit.  I’ll post it again but it won’t be until next week because I have it on my computer at work, and I’m on vacation. Gina

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POORLY WORDED ADS  2 female Boston Terrier puppies, 7 wks old, Perfect markings, 555-1234. Leave mess.  Lost: small apricot poodle.  Reward.  Neutered.  Like one of the family.  A superb and inexpensive restaurant.  Fine food expertly served by waitresses in appetizing forms.  Dinner Special — Turkey $2.35; Chicken or Beef $2.25; Children $2.00.  For sale: an antique desk suitable for lady with thick legs and large drawers.  Four-poster bed, 101 years old.  Perfect for antique lover.  Now is your chance to have your ears pierced and get an extra pair to take home, too.  We do not tear your clothing with machinery.  We do it carefully by hand.  For Sale.  Three canaries of undermined sex.  For Sale — Eight puppies from a German Shepperd and an Alaskan Hussy.  Have several very old dresses from grandmother in beautiful condition.  Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children.  Vacation Special: have your home exterminated.  If you think you’ve seen everything in Paris, visit the Pere Lachasis Cemetery.  It boasts such immortals as Moliere, Jean de la Fontain, and Chopin.  Mt. Kilimanjaro, the breathtaking backdrop for the Serena Lodge.   Swim in the lovely pool while you drink it all in.  The hotel has bowling alleys, tennis courts, comfortable beds, and other athletic facilities.  Get rid of aunts: Zap does the job in 24 hours.  Toaster: A gift that every member of the family appreciates. Automatically burns toast.  Stock up and save.  Limit: one.  We build bodies that last a lifetime.  For Rent: 6-room hated apartment.  Man, honest.  Will take anything.  Man wanted to work in dynamite factory.  Must be willing to travel.  UsedCars: Why go elsewhere to be cheated?  Come here first!  Christmas tag-sale.  Handmade gifts for the hard-to-find person.  Wanted: Hair-cutter.  Excellent growth potential.  Wanted.  Man to take care of cow that does not smoke or drink.  3-year-old teacher need for pre-school.  Experience preferred.  Our experienced Mom will care for your child.  Fenced yard, meals, and smacks included.  Auto Repair Service.  Free pick-up and delivery.  Try us once, you’ll never go anywhere again.  Illiterate?  Write today for free help.  Girl wanted to assist magician in cutting-off-head illusion.  Blue Cross and salary.  Mixing bowl set designed to please a cook with round bottom for efficient beating.  Semi-Annual after-Christmas Sale.  And now, the Superstore–unequaled in size, unmatched in variety, unrivaled inconvenience.  We will oil your sewing machine and adjust tension in your home for $1.00.

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This last Sunday morning I received 2 phone calls, one from my boss and one from my neighbour across the street, about what they had read in the Sunday paper. It had to do with parrots and Rottweilers, and Lord knows, we have enough of both of those. Here’s what it was all about. Late one recent night a burglar broke into a dark house where he though no-one was home. He tiptoed through the living room, but suddenly froze in his tracks when he heard a voice say: "Jesus is watching you." As silence returned to the house he crept shakely forward again. "Jesus is watching you," he heard again, and he stopped dead again. Frightened, he frantically searched and looked all around. In a dark corner of the living room he spotted a birdcage with a parrot in it, and the parrot said, again, "Jesus is watching you." "Phew," the burglar said to the parrot, "you had me going there for a minute. It’s only you, what’s your name?" "Clarence," said the bird. "Clarence," said the burglar, "that’s a dumb name for a parrot, what kind of fool would name his parrot Clarence anyway?" "The same fool that calls his Rottweiler Jesus," said the parrot. — TTFN —- Peter Klapwijk, Bakla Aviaries, Richmond, B.C. Home of Champion Cockatiels, Senegals and Champion CKC reg’d Rottweilers   (604)-241-8750

Response:

I really got a great laugh with this story, thanks for the post!! Michelle

Response:

A burglar got into a house one night. Shining his flashlight on the floor in the dark, he heard a voice say "Jesus is watching you."   He looked around nervously, shook his head, and continued to search for  valuables.  Then the voice came again: "Jesus is watching you." This time he moved the beam of light about the room until it rested upon a parrot. The burglar asked, "Did you say that?"   The parrot admitted that it had "I’m just trying to warn you, that’s all." The burglar said, "Warn me, huh? Who are you? What’s your name?"  "Moses," said the parrot. "What kind of stupid people would name a parrot Moses?" sneered the burglar.   "I don’t know. I guess the same folks who would  name a  Rottweiler Jesus." Enjoy –  Joy & & &

Response:

Loved it. Thanks. LOL.

Response:

A lady approaches a priest and tells him, "Father, I have a problem, I have two female talking parrots, but they only know how to say one thing." "What do they say?" the priest inquired. "They only know how to say,   ‘Hi, we’re prostitutes.  Do you want to have some fun?’" "That’s terrible!" the priest exclaims, "But I have a  solution to your problem.  Bring your two female parrots to my house and I will put them with my two male talking parrots who I taught to pray and read the Bible.  My parrots will teach your parrots to stop saying that terrible phrase and will learn to praise and worship." "Thank you!" the woman responded. The next day, the lady brings her female parrots to the priest’s house.  His two male parrots are holding rosary beads and praying in their cage.   The lady puts her female parrots in with the male parrots and the female parrots say, "Hi, we’re prostitutes. Do you want to have some fun?" One of the male parrots looks at the other male parrot and exclaims, "Put the beads away, our prayers have been answered!" enjoy – Joy & & &

Response:

This last Sunday morning I received 2 phone calls, one from my boss and one from my neighbour across the street, about what they had read in the Sunday paper. It had to do with parrots and Rottweilers, and Lord knows, we have enough of both of those. Here’s what it was all about. Late one recent night a burglar broke into a dark house where he though no-one was home. He tiptoed through the living room, but suddenly froze in his tracks when he heard a voice say: "Jesus is watching you." As silence returned to the house he crept shakely forward again. "Jesus is watching you," he heard again, and he stopped dead again. Frightened, he frantically searched and looked all around. In a dark corner of the living room he spotted a birdcage with a parrot in it, and the parrot said, again, "Jesus is watching you." "Phew," the burglar said to the parrot, "you had me going there for a minute. It’s only you, what’s your name?" "Clarence," said the bird. "Clarence," said the burglar, "that’s a dumb name for a parrot, what kind of fool would name his parrot Clarence anyway?" "The same fool that calls his Rottweiler Jesus," said the parrot. — TTFN —- Peter Klapwijk, Bakla Aviaries, Richmond, B.C. Home of Champion Cockatiels, Senegals and Champion CKC reg’d Rottweilers   (604)-241-8750

Response:

I really got a great laugh with this story, thanks for the post!! Michelle

Response:

A burglar got into a house one night. Shining his flashlight on the floor in the dark, he heard a voice say "Jesus is watching you."   He looked around nervously, shook his head, and continued to search for  valuables.  Then the voice came again: "Jesus is watching you." This time he moved the beam of light about the room until it rested upon a parrot. The burglar asked, "Did you say that?"   The parrot admitted that it had "I’m just trying to warn you, that’s all." The burglar said, "Warn me, huh? Who are you? What’s your name?"  "Moses," said the parrot. "What kind of stupid people would name a parrot Moses?" sneered the burglar.   "I don’t know. I guess the same folks who would  name a  Rottweiler Jesus." Enjoy –  Joy & & &

Response:

Loved it. Thanks. LOL.

Response:

A lady approaches a priest and tells him, "Father, I have a problem, I have two female talking parrots, but they only know how to say one thing." "What do they say?" the priest inquired. "They only know how to say,   ‘Hi, we’re prostitutes.  Do you want to have some fun?’" "That’s terrible!" the priest exclaims, "But I have a  solution to your problem.  Bring your two female parrots to my house and I will put them with my two male talking parrots who I taught to pray and read the Bible.  My parrots will teach your parrots to stop saying that terrible phrase and will learn to praise and worship." "Thank you!" the woman responded. The next day, the lady brings her female parrots to the priest’s house.  His two male parrots are holding rosary beads and praying in their cage.   The lady puts her female parrots in with the male parrots and the female parrots say, "Hi, we’re prostitutes. Do you want to have some fun?" One of the male parrots looks at the other male parrot and exclaims, "Put the beads away, our prayers have been answered!" enjoy – Joy & & &

Response:

I saw this on another newsgroup and I know it’s not on-subject, BUT I definitely think it applies to what’s been posted on here of late!  Hope you get a chuckle! Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? A:  1,331 … 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mailing list that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mailing list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this e-mail exchange to alt.lite.bulb 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mailing list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. 19 to quote the "Me Too’s" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here. 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. Cheers!   Marcie

Response:

>Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a >light bulb?

I wonder if any enterprising psychologist is doing a study of newsgroup behavior.  I loved the humor.  Thanks L. M. Rose, Spokane, zone 5 "Set the table, but don’t surprise the cat."

Response:

This last Sunday morning I received 2 phone calls, one from my boss and one from my neighbour across the street, about what they had read in the Sunday paper. It had to do with parrots and Rottweilers, and Lord knows, we have enough of both of those. Here’s what it was all about. Late one recent night a burglar broke into a dark house where he though no-one was home. He tiptoed through the living room, but suddenly froze in his tracks when he heard a voice say: "Jesus is watching you." As silence returned to the house he crept shakely forward again. "Jesus is watching you," he heard again, and he stopped dead again. Frightened, he frantically searched and looked all around. In a dark corner of the living room he spotted a birdcage with a parrot in it, and the parrot said, again, "Jesus is watching you." "Phew," the burglar said to the parrot, "you had me going there for a minute. It’s only you, what’s your name?" "Clarence," said the bird. "Clarence," said the burglar, "that’s a dumb name for a parrot, what kind of fool would name his parrot Clarence anyway?" "The same fool that calls his Rottweiler Jesus," said the parrot. — TTFN —- Peter Klapwijk, Bakla Aviaries, Richmond, B.C. Home of Champion Cockatiels, Senegals and Champion CKC reg’d Rottweilers   (604)-241-8750

Response:

I really got a great laugh with this story, thanks for the post!! Michelle

Response:

A burglar got into a house one night. Shining his flashlight on the floor in the dark, he heard a voice say "Jesus is watching you."   He looked around nervously, shook his head, and continued to search for  valuables.  Then the voice came again: "Jesus is watching you." This time he moved the beam of light about the room until it rested upon a parrot. The burglar asked, "Did you say that?"   The parrot admitted that it had "I’m just trying to warn you, that’s all." The burglar said, "Warn me, huh? Who are you? What’s your name?"  "Moses," said the parrot. "What kind of stupid people would name a parrot Moses?" sneered the burglar.   "I don’t know. I guess the same folks who would  name a  Rottweiler Jesus." Enjoy –  Joy & & &

Response:

Loved it. Thanks. LOL.

Response:

A lady approaches a priest and tells him, "Father, I have a problem, I have two female talking parrots, but they only know how to say one thing." "What do they say?" the priest inquired. "They only know how to say,   ‘Hi, we’re prostitutes.  Do you want to have some fun?’" "That’s terrible!" the priest exclaims, "But I have a  solution to your problem.  Bring your two female parrots to my house and I will put them with my two male talking parrots who I taught to pray and read the Bible.  My parrots will teach your parrots to stop saying that terrible phrase and will learn to praise and worship." "Thank you!" the woman responded. The next day, the lady brings her female parrots to the priest’s house.  His two male parrots are holding rosary beads and praying in their cage.   The lady puts her female parrots in with the male parrots and the female parrots say, "Hi, we’re prostitutes. Do you want to have some fun?" One of the male parrots looks at the other male parrot and exclaims, "Put the beads away, our prayers have been answered!" enjoy – Joy & & &

Response:

I saw this on another newsgroup and I know it’s not on-subject, BUT I definitely think it applies to what’s been posted on here of late!  Hope you get a chuckle! Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? A:  1,331 … 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mailing list that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mailing list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this e-mail exchange to alt.lite.bulb 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mailing list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. 19 to quote the "Me Too’s" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here. 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. Cheers!   Marcie

Response:

>Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a >light bulb?

I wonder if any enterprising psychologist is doing a study of newsgroup behavior.  I loved the humor.  Thanks L. M. Rose, Spokane, zone 5 "Set the table, but don’t surprise the cat."

Response:

This last Sunday morning I received 2 phone calls, one from my boss and one from my neighbour across the street, about what they had read in the Sunday paper. It had to do with parrots and Rottweilers, and Lord knows, we have enough of both of those. Here’s what it was all about. Late one recent night a burglar broke into a dark house where he though no-one was home. He tiptoed through the living room, but suddenly froze in his tracks when he heard a voice say: "Jesus is watching you." As silence returned to the house he crept shakely forward again. "Jesus is watching you," he heard again, and he stopped dead again. Frightened, he frantically searched and looked all around. In a dark corner of the living room he spotted a birdcage with a parrot in it, and the parrot said, again, "Jesus is watching you." "Phew," the burglar said to the parrot, "you had me going there for a minute. It’s only you, what’s your name?" "Clarence," said the bird. "Clarence," said the burglar, "that’s a dumb name for a parrot, what kind of fool would name his parrot Clarence anyway?" "The same fool that calls his Rottweiler Jesus," said the parrot. — TTFN —- Peter Klapwijk, Bakla Aviaries, Richmond, B.C. Home of Champion Cockatiels, Senegals and Champion CKC reg’d Rottweilers   (604)-241-8750

Response:

I really got a great laugh with this story, thanks for the post!! Michelle

Response:

A burglar got into a house one night. Shining his flashlight on the floor in the dark, he heard a voice say "Jesus is watching you."   He looked around nervously, shook his head, and continued to search for  valuables.  Then the voice came again: "Jesus is watching you." This time he moved the beam of light about the room until it rested upon a parrot. The burglar asked, "Did you say that?"   The parrot admitted that it had "I’m just trying to warn you, that’s all." The burglar said, "Warn me, huh? Who are you? What’s your name?"  "Moses," said the parrot. "What kind of stupid people would name a parrot Moses?" sneered the burglar.   "I don’t know. I guess the same folks who would  name a  Rottweiler Jesus." Enjoy –  Joy & & &

Response:

Loved it. Thanks. LOL.

Response:

A lady approaches a priest and tells him, "Father, I have a problem, I have two female talking parrots, but they only know how to say one thing." "What do they say?" the priest inquired. "They only know how to say,   ‘Hi, we’re prostitutes.  Do you want to have some fun?’" "That’s terrible!" the priest exclaims, "But I have a  solution to your problem.  Bring your two female parrots to my house and I will put them with my two male talking parrots who I taught to pray and read the Bible.  My parrots will teach your parrots to stop saying that terrible phrase and will learn to praise and worship." "Thank you!" the woman responded. The next day, the lady brings her female parrots to the priest’s house.  His two male parrots are holding rosary beads and praying in their cage.   The lady puts her female parrots in with the male parrots and the female parrots say, "Hi, we’re prostitutes. Do you want to have some fun?" One of the male parrots looks at the other male parrot and exclaims, "Put the beads away, our prayers have been answered!" enjoy – Joy & & &

Response:

I saw this on another newsgroup and I know it’s not on-subject, BUT I definitely think it applies to what’s been posted on here of late!  Hope you get a chuckle! Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? A:  1,331 … 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mailing list that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mailing list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this e-mail exchange to alt.lite.bulb 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mailing list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. 19 to quote the "Me Too’s" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here. 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. Cheers!   Marcie

Response:

>Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a >light bulb?

I wonder if any enterprising psychologist is doing a study of newsgroup behavior.  I loved the humor.  Thanks L. M. Rose, Spokane, zone 5 "Set the table, but don’t surprise the cat."

Response:

This last Sunday morning I received 2 phone calls, one from my boss and one from my neighbour across the street, about what they had read in the Sunday paper. It had to do with parrots and Rottweilers, and Lord knows, we have enough of both of those. Here’s what it was all about. Late one recent night a burglar broke into a dark house where he though no-one was home. He tiptoed through the living room, but suddenly froze in his tracks when he heard a voice say: "Jesus is watching you." As silence returned to the house he crept shakely forward again. "Jesus is watching you," he heard again, and he stopped dead again. Frightened, he frantically searched and looked all around. In a dark corner of the living room he spotted a birdcage with a parrot in it, and the parrot said, again, "Jesus is watching you." "Phew," the burglar said to the parrot, "you had me going there for a minute. It’s only you, what’s your name?" "Clarence," said the bird. "Clarence," said the burglar, "that’s a dumb name for a parrot, what kind of fool would name his parrot Clarence anyway?" "The same fool that calls his Rottweiler Jesus," said the parrot. — TTFN —- Peter Klapwijk, Bakla Aviaries, Richmond, B.C. Home of Champion Cockatiels, Senegals and Champion CKC reg’d Rottweilers   (604)-241-8750

Response:

I really got a great laugh with this story, thanks for the post!! Michelle

Response:

A burglar got into a house one night. Shining his flashlight on the floor in the dark, he heard a voice say "Jesus is watching you."   He looked around nervously, shook his head, and continued to search for  valuables.  Then the voice came again: "Jesus is watching you." This time he moved the beam of light about the room until it rested upon a parrot. The burglar asked, "Did you say that?"   The parrot admitted that it had "I’m just trying to warn you, that’s all." The burglar said, "Warn me, huh? Who are you? What’s your name?"  "Moses," said the parrot. "What kind of stupid people would name a parrot Moses?" sneered the burglar.   "I don’t know. I guess the same folks who would  name a  Rottweiler Jesus." Enjoy –  Joy & & &

Response:

Loved it. Thanks. LOL.

Response:

A lady approaches a priest and tells him, "Father, I have a problem, I have two female talking parrots, but they only know how to say one thing." "What do they say?" the priest inquired. "They only know how to say,   ‘Hi, we’re prostitutes.  Do you want to have some fun?’" "That’s terrible!" the priest exclaims, "But I have a  solution to your problem.  Bring your two female parrots to my house and I will put them with my two male talking parrots who I taught to pray and read the Bible.  My parrots will teach your parrots to stop saying that terrible phrase and will learn to praise and worship." "Thank you!" the woman responded. The next day, the lady brings her female parrots to the priest’s house.  His two male parrots are holding rosary beads and praying in their cage.   The lady puts her female parrots in with the male parrots and the female parrots say, "Hi, we’re prostitutes. Do you want to have some fun?" One of the male parrots looks at the other male parrot and exclaims, "Put the beads away, our prayers have been answered!" enjoy – Joy & & &

Response:

I saw this on another newsgroup and I know it’s not on-subject, BUT I definitely think it applies to what’s been posted on here of late!  Hope you get a chuckle! Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? A:  1,331 … 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mailing list that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mailing list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this e-mail exchange to alt.lite.bulb 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mailing list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. 19 to quote the "Me Too’s" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here. 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. Cheers!   Marcie

Response:

>Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a >light bulb?

I wonder if any enterprising psychologist is doing a study of newsgroup behavior.  I loved the humor.  Thanks L. M. Rose, Spokane, zone 5 "Set the table, but don’t surprise the cat."

Response:

This last Sunday morning I received 2 phone calls, one from my boss and one from my neighbour across the street, about what they had read in the Sunday paper. It had to do with parrots and Rottweilers, and Lord knows, we have enough of both of those. Here’s what it was all about. Late one recent night a burglar broke into a dark house where he though no-one was home. He tiptoed through the living room, but suddenly froze in his tracks when he heard a voice say: "Jesus is watching you." As silence returned to the house he crept shakely forward again. "Jesus is watching you," he heard again, and he stopped dead again. Frightened, he frantically searched and looked all around. In a dark corner of the living room he spotted a birdcage with a parrot in it, and the parrot said, again, "Jesus is watching you." "Phew," the burglar said to the parrot, "you had me going there for a minute. It’s only you, what’s your name?" "Clarence," said the bird. "Clarence," said the burglar, "that’s a dumb name for a parrot, what kind of fool would name his parrot Clarence anyway?" "The same fool that calls his Rottweiler Jesus," said the parrot. — TTFN —- Peter Klapwijk, Bakla Aviaries, Richmond, B.C. Home of Champion Cockatiels, Senegals and Champion CKC reg’d Rottweilers   (604)-241-8750

Response:

I really got a great laugh with this story, thanks for the post!! Michelle

Response:

A burglar got into a house one night. Shining his flashlight on the floor in the dark, he heard a voice say "Jesus is watching you."   He looked around nervously, shook his head, and continued to search for  valuables.  Then the voice came again: "Jesus is watching you." This time he moved the beam of light about the room until it rested upon a parrot. The burglar asked, "Did you say that?"   The parrot admitted that it had "I’m just trying to warn you, that’s all." The burglar said, "Warn me, huh? Who are you? What’s your name?"  "Moses," said the parrot. "What kind of stupid people would name a parrot Moses?" sneered the burglar.   "I don’t know. I guess the same folks who would  name a  Rottweiler Jesus." Enjoy –  Joy & & &

Response:

Loved it. Thanks. LOL.

Response:

A lady approaches a priest and tells him, "Father, I have a problem, I have two female talking parrots, but they only know how to say one thing." "What do they say?" the priest inquired. "They only know how to say,   ‘Hi, we’re prostitutes.  Do you want to have some fun?’" "That’s terrible!" the priest exclaims, "But I have a  solution to your problem.  Bring your two female parrots to my house and I will put them with my two male talking parrots who I taught to pray and read the Bible.  My parrots will teach your parrots to stop saying that terrible phrase and will learn to praise and worship." "Thank you!" the woman responded. The next day, the lady brings her female parrots to the priest’s house.  His two male parrots are holding rosary beads and praying in their cage.   The lady puts her female parrots in with the male parrots and the female parrots say, "Hi, we’re prostitutes. Do you want to have some fun?" One of the male parrots looks at the other male parrot and exclaims, "Put the beads away, our prayers have been answered!" enjoy – Joy & & &

Response:

I saw this on another newsgroup and I know it’s not on-subject, BUT I definitely think it applies to what’s been posted on here of late!  Hope you get a chuckle! Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? A:  1,331 … 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mailing list that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mailing list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this e-mail exchange to alt.lite.bulb 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mailing list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. 19 to quote the "Me Too’s" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here. 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. Cheers!   Marcie

Response:

>Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a >light bulb?

I wonder if any enterprising psychologist is doing a study of newsgroup behavior.  I loved the humor.  Thanks L. M. Rose, Spokane, zone 5 "Set the table, but don’t surprise the cat."

Response:

This last Sunday morning I received 2 phone calls, one from my boss and one from my neighbour across the street, about what they had read in the Sunday paper. It had to do with parrots and Rottweilers, and Lord knows, we have enough of both of those. Here’s what it was all about. Late one recent night a burglar broke into a dark house where he though no-one was home. He tiptoed through the living room, but suddenly froze in his tracks when he heard a voice say: "Jesus is watching you." As silence returned to the house he crept shakely forward again. "Jesus is watching you," he heard again, and he stopped dead again. Frightened, he frantically searched and looked all around. In a dark corner of the living room he spotted a birdcage with a parrot in it, and the parrot said, again, "Jesus is watching you." "Phew," the burglar said to the parrot, "you had me going there for a minute. It’s only you, what’s your name?" "Clarence," said the bird. "Clarence," said the burglar, "that’s a dumb name for a parrot, what kind of fool would name his parrot Clarence anyway?" "The same fool that calls his Rottweiler Jesus," said the parrot. — TTFN —- Peter Klapwijk, Bakla Aviaries, Richmond, B.C. Home of Champion Cockatiels, Senegals and Champion CKC reg’d Rottweilers   (604)-241-8750

Response:

I really got a great laugh with this story, thanks for the post!! Michelle

Response:

A burglar got into a house one night. Shining his flashlight on the floor in the dark, he heard a voice say "Jesus is watching you."   He looked around nervously, shook his head, and continued to search for  valuables.  Then the voice came again: "Jesus is watching you." This time he moved the beam of light about the room until it rested upon a parrot. The burglar asked, "Did you say that?"   The parrot admitted that it had "I’m just trying to warn you, that’s all." The burglar said, "Warn me, huh? Who are you? What’s your name?"  "Moses," said the parrot. "What kind of stupid people would name a parrot Moses?" sneered the burglar.   "I don’t know. I guess the same folks who would  name a  Rottweiler Jesus." Enjoy –  Joy & & &

Response:

Loved it. Thanks. LOL.

Response:

A lady approaches a priest and tells him, "Father, I have a problem, I have two female talking parrots, but they only know how to say one thing." "What do they say?" the priest inquired. "They only know how to say,   ‘Hi, we’re prostitutes.  Do you want to have some fun?’" "That’s terrible!" the priest exclaims, "But I have a  solution to your problem.  Bring your two female parrots to my house and I will put them with my two male talking parrots who I taught to pray and read the Bible.  My parrots will teach your parrots to stop saying that terrible phrase and will learn to praise and worship." "Thank you!" the woman responded. The next day, the lady brings her female parrots to the priest’s house.  His two male parrots are holding rosary beads and praying in their cage.   The lady puts her female parrots in with the male parrots and the female parrots say, "Hi, we’re prostitutes. Do you want to have some fun?" One of the male parrots looks at the other male parrot and exclaims, "Put the beads away, our prayers have been answered!" enjoy – Joy & & &

Response:

I saw this on another newsgroup and I know it’s not on-subject, BUT I definitely think it applies to what’s been posted on here of late!  Hope you get a chuckle! Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? A:  1,331 … 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mailing list that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mailing list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this e-mail exchange to alt.lite.bulb 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mailing list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. 19 to quote the "Me Too’s" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here. 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. Cheers!   Marcie

Response:

>Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a >light bulb?

I wonder if any enterprising psychologist is doing a study of newsgroup behavior.  I loved the humor.  Thanks L. M. Rose, Spokane, zone 5 "Set the table, but don’t surprise the cat."

Response:

If you can start the day without caffeine, If you can be cheerful, ignoring aches and pains, If you can resist complaining and boring people with your troubles, If you can eat the same food every day and be grateful for it, If you can understand when loved ones are too busy to give you time, If you can overlook when people take things out on you when, through no fault of yours, something goes wrong, If you can take criticism and blame without resentment, If you can face the world without lies and deceit, If you can conquer tension without medical help, If you can relax without liquor, If you can sleep without the aid of drugs, Then you are probably a dog. — Toni http://www.irish-wolfhounds.com

Response:

And another… Trish First Strike!! A platoon of crack Special Forces soldiers have taken the first steps of reprisal after the incidents in America. The heroic force, composed of A&M corps graduates, have broken into the dog kennel area of the A&M Veterinary Science Building and captured all the Afghans. They reported light casualties.

Response:

This last Sunday morning I received 2 phone calls, one from my boss and one from my neighbour across the street, about what they had read in the Sunday paper. It had to do with parrots and Rottweilers, and Lord knows, we have enough of both of those. Here’s what it was all about. Late one recent night a burglar broke into a dark house where he though no-one was home. He tiptoed through the living room, but suddenly froze in his tracks when he heard a voice say: "Jesus is watching you." As silence returned to the house he crept shakely forward again. "Jesus is watching you," he heard again, and he stopped dead again. Frightened, he frantically searched and looked all around. In a dark corner of the living room he spotted a birdcage with a parrot in it, and the parrot said, again, "Jesus is watching you." "Phew," the burglar said to the parrot, "you had me going there for a minute. It’s only you, what’s your name?" "Clarence," said the bird. "Clarence," said the burglar, "that’s a dumb name for a parrot, what kind of fool would name his parrot Clarence anyway?" "The same fool that calls his Rottweiler Jesus," said the parrot. — TTFN —- Peter Klapwijk, Bakla Aviaries, Richmond, B.C. Home of Champion Cockatiels, Senegals and Champion CKC reg’d Rottweilers   (604)-241-8750

Response:

I really got a great laugh with this story, thanks for the post!! Michelle

Response:

A burglar got into a house one night. Shining his flashlight on the floor in the dark, he heard a voice say "Jesus is watching you."   He looked around nervously, shook his head, and continued to search for  valuables.  Then the voice came again: "Jesus is watching you." This time he moved the beam of light about the room until it rested upon a parrot. The burglar asked, "Did you say that?"   The parrot admitted that it had "I’m just trying to warn you, that’s all." The burglar said, "Warn me, huh? Who are you? What’s your name?"  "Moses," said the parrot. "What kind of stupid people would name a parrot Moses?" sneered the burglar.   "I don’t know. I guess the same folks who would  name a  Rottweiler Jesus." Enjoy –  Joy & & &

Response:

Loved it. Thanks. LOL.

Response:

A lady approaches a priest and tells him, "Father, I have a problem, I have two female talking parrots, but they only know how to say one thing." "What do they say?" the priest inquired. "They only know how to say,   ‘Hi, we’re prostitutes.  Do you want to have some fun?’" "That’s terrible!" the priest exclaims, "But I have a  solution to your problem.  Bring your two female parrots to my house and I will put them with my two male talking parrots who I taught to pray and read the Bible.  My parrots will teach your parrots to stop saying that terrible phrase and will learn to praise and worship." "Thank you!" the woman responded. The next day, the lady brings her female parrots to the priest’s house.  His two male parrots are holding rosary beads and praying in their cage.   The lady puts her female parrots in with the male parrots and the female parrots say, "Hi, we’re prostitutes. Do you want to have some fun?" One of the male parrots looks at the other male parrot and exclaims, "Put the beads away, our prayers have been answered!" enjoy – Joy & & &

Response:

I saw this on another newsgroup and I know it’s not on-subject, BUT I definitely think it applies to what’s been posted on here of late!  Hope you get a chuckle! Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? A:  1,331 … 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mailing list that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mailing list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this e-mail exchange to alt.lite.bulb 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mailing list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. 19 to quote the "Me Too’s" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here. 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. Cheers!   Marcie

Response:

>Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a >light bulb?

I wonder if any enterprising psychologist is doing a study of newsgroup behavior.  I loved the humor.  Thanks L. M. Rose, Spokane, zone 5 "Set the table, but don’t surprise the cat."

Response:

If you can start the day without caffeine, If you can be cheerful, ignoring aches and pains, If you can resist complaining and boring people with your troubles, If you can eat the same food every day and be grateful for it, If you can understand when loved ones are too busy to give you time, If you can overlook when people take things out on you when, through no fault of yours, something goes wrong, If you can take criticism and blame without resentment, If you can face the world without lies and deceit, If you can conquer tension without medical help, If you can relax without liquor, If you can sleep without the aid of drugs, Then you are probably a dog. — Toni http://www.irish-wolfhounds.com

Response:

And another… Trish First Strike!! A platoon of crack Special Forces soldiers have taken the first steps of reprisal after the incidents in America. The heroic force, composed of A&M corps graduates, have broken into the dog kennel area of the A&M Veterinary Science Building and captured all the Afghans. They reported light casualties.

Response:

This last Sunday morning I received 2 phone calls, one from my boss and one from my neighbour across the street, about what they had read in the Sunday paper. It had to do with parrots and Rottweilers, and Lord knows, we have enough of both of those. Here’s what it was all about. Late one recent night a burglar broke into a dark house where he though no-one was home. He tiptoed through the living room, but suddenly froze in his tracks when he heard a voice say: "Jesus is watching you." As silence returned to the house he crept shakely forward again. "Jesus is watching you," he heard again, and he stopped dead again. Frightened, he frantically searched and looked all around. In a dark corner of the living room he spotted a birdcage with a parrot in it, and the parrot said, again, "Jesus is watching you." "Phew," the burglar said to the parrot, "you had me going there for a minute. It’s only you, what’s your name?" "Clarence," said the bird. "Clarence," said the burglar, "that’s a dumb name for a parrot, what kind of fool would name his parrot Clarence anyway?" "The same fool that calls his Rottweiler Jesus," said the parrot. — TTFN —- Peter Klapwijk, Bakla Aviaries, Richmond, B.C. Home of Champion Cockatiels, Senegals and Champion CKC reg’d Rottweilers   (604)-241-8750

Response:

I really got a great laugh with this story, thanks for the post!! Michelle

Response:

A burglar got into a house one night. Shining his flashlight on the floor in the dark, he heard a voice say "Jesus is watching you."   He looked around nervously, shook his head, and continued to search for  valuables.  Then the voice came again: "Jesus is watching you." This time he moved the beam of light about the room until it rested upon a parrot. The burglar asked, "Did you say that?"   The parrot admitted that it had "I’m just trying to warn you, that’s all." The burglar said, "Warn me, huh? Who are you? What’s your name?"  "Moses," said the parrot. "What kind of stupid people would name a parrot Moses?" sneered the burglar.   "I don’t know. I guess the same folks who would  name a  Rottweiler Jesus." Enjoy –  Joy & & &

Response:

Loved it. Thanks. LOL.

Response:

A lady approaches a priest and tells him, "Father, I have a problem, I have two female talking parrots, but they only know how to say one thing." "What do they say?" the priest inquired. "They only know how to say,   ‘Hi, we’re prostitutes.  Do you want to have some fun?’" "That’s terrible!" the priest exclaims, "But I have a  solution to your problem.  Bring your two female parrots to my house and I will put them with my two male talking parrots who I taught to pray and read the Bible.  My parrots will teach your parrots to stop saying that terrible phrase and will learn to praise and worship." "Thank you!" the woman responded. The next day, the lady brings her female parrots to the priest’s house.  His two male parrots are holding rosary beads and praying in their cage.   The lady puts her female parrots in with the male parrots and the female parrots say, "Hi, we’re prostitutes. Do you want to have some fun?" One of the male parrots looks at the other male parrot and exclaims, "Put the beads away, our prayers have been answered!" enjoy – Joy & & &

Response:

I saw this on another newsgroup and I know it’s not on-subject, BUT I definitely think it applies to what’s been posted on here of late!  Hope you get a chuckle! Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? A:  1,331 … 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mailing list that the light bulb has been changed 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mailing list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this e-mail exchange to alt.lite.bulb 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mailing list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to concatenate all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. 19 to quote the "Me Too’s" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. 47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for, leave it here. 143 votes for alt.lite.bulb. Cheers!   Marcie

Response:

>Q:  How many internet mailing list subscribers does it take to change a >light bulb?

I wonder if any enterprising psychologist is doing a study of newsgroup behavior.  I loved the humor.  Thanks L. M. Rose, Spokane, zone 5 "Set the table, but don’t surprise the cat."

Response:

A minister died and went to heaven. Before him was a loudmouth man with a loud shirt, chain pants, and a loud hat. Saint Peter asked the guy what he did for a living. He said, "I was a taxi cab driver in Noo Yawk City!" St. Peter handed him a silk robe, and a golden staff. The minister’s turn was next. St. Peter asked him what he did for a living. He stood up very straight, and said in a loud, clear voice, "I am John C. Maxwell, bishop of St. Mary’s Church." St. Peter handed him a cotton robe and a regular staff. The bishop was stunned. "Why?" he asked. "You let that taxi cab driver have a silk robe and golden staff but not me?" St. Peter replied, "up here we work by results. While you preached, people slept; while he drove, people prayed."

Response:

JOKE OF THE DAY Two men are drinking in a bar at the top of the Empire State Building. One turns to the other and says: "You know last week I discovered that if you jump from the top of this building, by the time you fall to the 10th floor, the winds around the building are so intense that they carry you around the building and back into the window." The bartender just shakes his head in disapproval while wiping the bar. The second Man says: "What are you a nut?  There is no way in hell that could happen." First Man: "No it’s true, let me prove it to you." So he gets up from the bar, jumps over the balcony, and careens to the street below. When he passes the 10th floor, the high wind whips him around the building and back into the 10th floor window, and he takes the elevator back up to the bar. The second man tells him: "You know I saw it with my own eyes, but that must have been a one time fluke." First Man: "No, I’ll prove it again" and jumps out the window. Once upstairs, he urges his fellow drinker to try it. Second Man: "Well what the hell, it works, I’ll try it." So he jumps over that balcony, plunges downward, passes the 11th, 10th, 9th, 8th floors, and hits the sidewalk with a "splat." Back upstairs the Bartender turns to the other drinker: "You know, Superman, you’re a real jerk when you’re drunk."

Response:

Took me awhile…….but I got it!   Very funny! — Lisa – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The burglar was creeping noiselessly through the darkened home, filing > his bag with various valuables. As he reached his hand out to a box of > jewelry, he heard a voice say, "Jesus is watching you." Shaken, the > Good one Chief. Reminds me of the night I was walking all alone > beside a big grave yard. The moon was full, and there was no one > for miles. The dead trees leaned ominously over the tombstones. > It was very creepy and as I walked, I felt a cold chill run up my back. > Just then, I heard a voice call out, "Mark!" >   I spun around, but there was no one there. I heard the gruff voice > clear as a bell, no mistake about it. So I quickened my pace. Then > I heard the leaves rustling among the headstones. As I looked back > to the graveyard, once again it called out, "Mark! Mark!", but there > was no one there. >    Now I was terrified, so I began to run, but the graveyard was huge! > And now, I could hear footsteps chasing me! The voice continued to > call out, "Mark! Mark! Mark!" >     I ran faster and faster, but I could hear the footsteps gaining on me! > Just as I felt my heart beginning to flutter, a very loud voice was right > behind me, and yelled out, "MARK! MARK!" >     In terror I spun around to face the voice, when there under the > moonlight, I realized that I was being chased by a little Hair-lipped dog. > (untrue story) > Mark Mark, of the Forest

Response:

The burglar was creeping noiselessly through the darkened home, filing his bag with various valuables. As he reached his hand out to a box of jewelry, he heard a voice say, "Jesus is watching you." Shaken, the burglar stopped. For a full minute he didn’t dare breathe. Finally, he switched on his flashlight and carefully played it around the room, but saw nothing. Convinced that it must have been his imagination he turned off the flashlight and continued in his quest for another man’s wealth. He was busily unhooking a stereo set when he again heard, "Jesus is watching you." This time he nearly jumped out of his skin, he was so freaked out. beads of sweat popped out on his face, and as he switched the light on again, the beam shook violently from his terror. He looked around the room,and noticed a birdcage in the corner. Upon closer inspection, he discovered a parrot in the cage. "Are you the one that spoke to me just now?", asked the burglar."Yes, I am," said the parrot. "Why did you say ‘Jesus is watching you?’, asked the man. "Because I felt you needed to be warned," replied the parrot. By this time the man was over his fright and was more than a little irritated at this smart-mouthed parrot that had tried to scare the living daylights out of him. "What’s your name?", asked the burglar."Moses", the parrot said. "Ha", the man said, guffawing. "What kind of people would name their parrot Moses?""The same kind of people that would name their Rottweiler, Jesus."

Response:

informed me of this: That got a big smile out of me. Thanks, Jesus is watching you too. Ruff! Hopper

Response:

> The burglar was creeping noiselessly through the darkened home, filing > his bag with various valuables. As he reached his hand out to a box of > jewelry, he heard a voice say, "Jesus is watching you." Shaken, the

Good one Chief. Reminds me of the night I was walking all alone beside a big grave yard. The moon was full, and there was no one for miles. The dead trees leaned ominously over the tombstones. It was very creepy and as I walked, I felt a cold chill run up my back. Just then, I heard a voice call out, "Mark!"   I spun around, but there was no one there. I heard the gruff voice clear as a bell, no mistake about it. So I quickened my pace. Then I heard the leaves rustling among the headstones. As I looked back to the graveyard, once again it called out, "Mark! Mark!", but there was no one there.    Now I was terrified, so I began to run, but the graveyard was huge! And now, I could hear footsteps chasing me! The voice continued to call out, "Mark! Mark! Mark!"     I ran faster and faster, but I could hear the footsteps gaining on me! Just as I felt my heart beginning to flutter, a very loud voice was right behind me, and yelled out, "MARK! MARK!"     In terror I spun around to face the voice, when there under the moonlight, I realized that I was being chased by a little Hair-lipped dog. (untrue story) Mark Mark, of the Forest

Response:

Oh, Mark.  You caught me off guard.  You rapscallion, you. — Val in Boise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The burglar was creeping noiselessly through the darkened home, filing > his bag with various valuables. As he reached his hand out to a box of > jewelry, he heard a voice say, "Jesus is watching you." Shaken, the > Good one Chief. Reminds me of the night I was walking all alone > beside a big grave yard. The moon was full, and there was no one > for miles. The dead trees leaned ominously over the tombstones. > It was very creepy and as I walked, I felt a cold chill run up my back. > Just then, I heard a voice call out, "Mark!" >   I spun around, but there was no one there. I heard the gruff voice > clear as a bell, no mistake about it. So I quickened my pace. Then > I heard the leaves rustling among the headstones. As I looked back > to the graveyard, once again it called out, "Mark! Mark!", but there > was no one there. >    Now I was terrified, so I began to run, but the graveyard was huge! > And now, I could hear footsteps chasing me! The voice continued to > call out, "Mark! Mark! Mark!" >     I ran faster and faster, but I could hear the footsteps gaining on me! > Just as I felt my heart beginning to flutter, a very loud voice was right > behind me, and yelled out, "MARK! MARK!" >     In terror I spun around to face the voice, when there under the > moonlight, I realized that I was being chased by a little Hair-lipped dog. > (untrue story) > Mark Mark, of the Forest

Response:

where do you find these, Lynda? having had little opportunity to chuckle this past week leaves me wide open to decent humor. thanks r

Response:

Hi Ricky, Welcom e to the ngs, > where do you find these, Lynda? > having had little opportunity to chuckle this past week leaves me wide open > to decent humor.

Thanks…glad you like them! From many sources…I subscribe to a few joke sites. Just type jokes and do a search on google.com :) — LyndaNP Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. – Robert J. Ringer

Response:

I always find lame joke sites. You’re lucky. Ricky Ricardo was Mad Hatter II and Mad Ness and Krang for a minute there, so that is out of the way. Ricardo MadGello is still my pen name. I usually sign with r no matter what name i’m using in ng. Take care and thanks again. r

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi Ricky, > Welcom e to the ngs, > where do you find these, Lynda? > having had little opportunity to chuckle this past week leaves me wide open > to decent humor. > Thanks…glad you like them! > From many sources…I subscribe to a few joke sites. Just type jokes and > do a search on google.com :) > — > LyndaNP > Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way > they appear to be, but the way they actually are. > – Robert J. Ringer

Response:

——- Begin Forwarded Message ——- JOKE OF THE DAY: The Millers were shown into the dentist’s office, where Mr. Miller made it clear he was in a big hurry. "No expensive extras, Doctor," he ordered. "No gas or needles or any of that fancy stuff. Just pull the tooth and get it over with." "I wish more of my patients were as stoic as you," said the dentist admiringly. "Now, which tooth is it?" Mr. Miller turned to his wife… "Show him your tooth, Honey." THE JOKE THAT SPARES NOBODY: Drunk On The Emerald Isle A respected Irish judge left Clancy’s bar after a hard night of tippling. Halfway home, he was overcome by nausea and upchucked all over his fine suit. He explained to his wife that a drunk had staggered into him in the street and soiled his clothing.  "Aye, Moira, not to fear" he said.  I had him arrested, and Monday I shall give him 30 days for his atrocious offense." His adoring wife dutifully cleaned his suit without comment.  Before leaving for court on Monday, he reminded Moira that he was going to sentence the suit soiler to 30 days, upon which Moira replied,  "Better give him 60 days, your honor, he shit in your pants too . . . " — LyndaNP Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. – Robert J. Ringer

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JOKE OF THE DAY: One day, this man, Tony, died. When he was sent to be judged, he was told that he had committed a sin, and that he could not go to heaven right away. He asked what he did and God told him that he cheated on his income taxes, and that the only way he could get into heaven would be to sleep with a 500 pound, stupid, butt-ugly woman for the next five years and enjoy it. Tony decided that this was a small price to pay for an eternity in heaven. So off he went with this enormous woman, pretending to be happy. As he was walking along, he saw his friend Carlos up ahead. Carlos was with an even bigger, uglier woman than he was with. When he approached Carlos he asked him what was going on, and Carlos replied, "I cheated on my income taxes and scammed the government out of a lot of money… even more then you did." They both shook their heads in understanding and figured that as long as they have to be with these women, they might as well hang out together to help pass the time. Now Tony, Carlos, and their two beastly women were walking along, minding their own business when Tony and Carlos could have sworn that they saw their friend Jon up ahead, only this man was with an absolutely drop dead gorgeous supermodel / centerfold. Stunned, Tony and Carlos approached the man and in fact it was their friend Jon. They asked him how is he with this unbelievable goddess, while they were stuck with these god-awful women. Jon replied, "I have no idea, and I’m definitely not complaining. This has been absolutely the best time of my life (and I’m dead,) and I have five years of the best sex any man could hope for to look forward to. There is only one thing that I can’t seem to understand. After everytime we have sex, she rolls over and murmurs to herself, "Damn income taxes!" THE JOKE THAT SPARES NOBODY: Cold Winter? The Indians asked their Chief in autumn if the winter was going to be cold or not. Not really knowing an answer, the chief replies that the winter was going to be cold and that the members of the village were to collect wood to be prepared. Being a good leader, he then went to the phone booth and called the National Weather Service and asked, "Is this winter to be cold?" The man on the phone responded, "This winter was going to be quite cold indeed." So the Chief went back to speed up his people to collect even more wood to be prepared. A week later he called the National Weather Service again, "Is it going to be a very cold winter?" "Yes," the man replied, "it’s going to be a very cold winter." So the Chief goes back to his people and orders them to go and find every scrap of wood they can find. Two weeks later he calls the National Weather Service again, "Are you absolutely sure, that the winter is going to be very cold?" "Absolutely" the man replies, "the Indians are collecting wood like crazy!" — LyndaNP Reality isn’t the way you wish things to be, nor the way they appear to be, but the way they actually are. – Robert J. Ringer

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Top Ten Things Men SHOULDN’T Say Out Loud In Victoria’s Secret:  10  Does this come in children’s sizes?  09  No Thanks. Just Sniffing.  08  I’ll be in the dressing room going blind.  07  Mom will love this.  06  Oh the size won’t matter. She’s inflatable.  05  No need to wrap it up. I’ll eat it here.  04  Will you model this for me???  03  The Miracle What??? This is better than world peace!!  02  45 bucks?? You’re just gonna end up naked ANYWAY!!  And the number one thing that a man should never, ever say out loud in  Victoria’s Secret:  01  Oh, honey, you’ll NEVER squeeze your ass into that!!

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Hello — glad to see you again…. seems like it’s been awhile… P.S. This is funny.  Reminds me of the time I was in the mall with son and his wife — of course we had to hit the V.S. sale….. I hear son mumbling — this is my nightmare — me, in Victoria’s Secret with my wife and my *mother*.  Eeeuuuuwwww. — Eileen [The world will go as it wills; not as you or I would have it.  MZB]

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Top Ten Things Men SHOULDN’T Say Out Loud In Victoria’s Secret: >  10  Does this come in children’s sizes? >  09  No Thanks. Just Sniffing. >  08  I’ll be in the dressing room going blind. >  07  Mom will love this. >  06  Oh the size won’t matter. She’s inflatable. >  05  No need to wrap it up. I’ll eat it here. >  04  Will you model this for me??? >  03  The Miracle What??? This is better than world peace!! >  02  45 bucks?? You’re just gonna end up naked ANYWAY!! >  And the number one thing that a man should never, ever say out loud in >  Victoria’s Secret: >  01  Oh, honey, you’ll NEVER squeeze your ass into that!!

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Debs, LOL!!!  I’ll have to wait until they have something a little more "feminine"!! Hugs,  Linda

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here is the actual URL: http://www.under-tec.com/store.htm > A friend sent the oage to me a while back! > Debs > My Mother needs a pair of those!  Where do I get them?? > Mary > > LOL!!  I could use some of those undies!! > > Hugs,  Linda

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Here is the actual URL: http://www.under-tec.com/store.htm A friend sent the oage to me a while back! Debs > My Mother needs a pair of those!  Where do I get them?? > Mary > LOL!!  I could use some of those undies!! > Hugs,  Linda

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My Mother needs a pair of those!  Where do I get them?? Mary

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> LOL!!  I could use some of those undies!! > Hugs,  Linda > IT’S A GAS, MAN >   A therapist who invented underwear that filters out the smell of > farts and a professor who figured out why shower curtains billow > inward are among this year’s Ig Nobel Prize winners. >   The Ig Nobel awards are presented annually by the humor science > magazine, Annals of Improbable Research. They were handed out last > Thursday night at Harvard University and are awarded to researchers > and inventors for work that "cannot and should not be reproduced." >   In the field of biology, Buck Weimer of Pueblo, Colo., was honored > for his invention of "Under-Ease" — described as airtight underwear > with a replaceable charcoal filter that removes the odor from > flatulence before it can escape. > — > Sussex Branch of the D.L.& W. Railroad: > http://srr_1854.tripod.com

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LOL!!  I could use some of those undies!! Hugs,  Linda

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> IT’S A GAS, MAN >   A therapist who invented underwear that filters out the smell of > farts and a professor who figured out why shower curtains billow > inward are among this year’s Ig Nobel Prize winners. >   The Ig Nobel awards are presented annually by the humor science > magazine, Annals of Improbable Research. They were handed out last > Thursday night at Harvard University and are awarded to researchers > and inventors for work that "cannot and should not be reproduced." >   In the field of biology, Buck Weimer of Pueblo, Colo., was honored > for his invention of "Under-Ease" — described as airtight underwear > with a replaceable charcoal filter that removes the odor from > flatulence before it can escape. > — > Sussex Branch of the D.L.& W. Railroad: > http://srr_1854.tripod.com

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IT’S A GAS, MAN   A therapist who invented underwear that filters out the smell of farts and a professor who figured out why shower curtains billow inward are among this year’s Ig Nobel Prize winners.   The Ig Nobel awards are presented annually by the humor science magazine, Annals of Improbable Research. They were handed out last Thursday night at Harvard University and are awarded to researchers and inventors for work that "cannot and should not be reproduced."   In the field of biology, Buck Weimer of Pueblo, Colo., was honored for his invention of "Under-Ease" — described as airtight underwear with a replaceable charcoal filter that removes the odor from flatulence before it can escape. — Sussex Branch of the D.L.& W. Railroad: http://srr_1854.tripod.com

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Wonder Wipe Toilet Paper!! New Wonder Wipe has been specifically formulated and clinically proven to fight odor.  It’s soft, non-abrasive, and when you purchase it at participating stores, receive a FREE box of croutons.  Wonder Wipe has several uses.  In fact, we have been considering changing the name to ALL PURPOSE MIRACLE COTTON CLOTH. Use it to dust, wallpaper your wall, cover a table, first-aid, even grind it up and add it to hamburger to give your hamburgers the famous Wonder Wipe zest!! Wonder Wipe won’t stick to dental work. NOR will it clog the toilet. NOR will it stick to your seat. Also, try computerized Wonder Wipe.  It does the job for you and is re-usable.  Try non-allergenic or floral print Wonder Wipe.  Try the Wonder Wipe dispenser that conveneintly spurts out a regulated one sheet of Wonder Wipe.  (The Surgeon General of toilets reports that a mere square per wipe is cheaper and better for the average toilet.) So be a Wonder Wipe man or woman.  After all, it’s the wave of the future in toilet paper.   If you send away now to the address on the envelope, you can receive our new Wonder Wipe Mini Roll, small enough to fit in most wallets.  Take Wonder Wipe to work!! Remember, a Wonder-Wipe man or woman is a Wonderful person!! New Wonder Wipe.  Tell a friend. Purchase a roll and ask for the free booklet "How to Wipe More Effectively"

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What do you call a child born in a Whorehouse?             A Brothel Sprout

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CUTE!!!  : )

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Maryjo

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Testing reply using NS 4.5 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > What do you call a child born in a Whorehouse? >             A Brothel Sprout

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This past weekend my daughter told me that she was having alot of abdominal pain and diarrehea.  I said, "I sure hope it isn’t Crohn’s or you’ll be in for a lifetime investment of toilet paper and bathroom candles!"  She kind of laughed, and I said, "No, I’m just being fecetious!"  My son-in-law pops into the conversation with, "Don’t you mean feces-shus?"  ha!

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Re: facetious —   GOOD ONE!

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Hello Folks I have been passing the ‘funnies’ onto my partner at his place of work, and he has been passing them onto his colleagues.  They are all enjoying them, so much so that my partner has passed them onto someone on California, whi he is co-authoring a book with (they are a couple of computer nerds and writing a book on ‘fly-by-wire’) Hildagh >         (_!_)      a regular ass

etc., etc

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Ohhh I had to print this one.   Been toooo many times that one of these would apply. harv – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->         (_!_)      a regular ass >             (__!__)    a fat ass >             (!)        a tight ass >             (_._)      a flat ass >             (_^_)      a bubble ass >             (_*_)      a sore ass >             (_!__)     a lop-sided ass >             {_!_}      a swishy ass >             (_o_)      an ass that’s been around >              (_O_)     an ass that’s been around even more >              (_x_)     kiss my ass >              (_X_)     leave my ass alone >               (_zzz_)    a tired ass >              (_o^o_)   a wise ass >              (_13_)     an unlucky ass >                (_$_)     Money coming out of his ass >               (_?_)   Dumb Ass

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        (_!_)      a regular ass             (__!__)    a fat ass             (!)        a tight ass             (_._)      a flat ass             (_^_)      a bubble ass             (_*_)      a sore ass             (_!__)     a lop-sided ass             {_!_}      a swishy ass             (_o_)      an ass that’s been around              (_O_)     an ass that’s been around even more              (_x_)     kiss my ass              (_X_)     leave my ass alone               (_zzz_)    a tired ass              (_o^o_)   a wise ass              (_13_)     an unlucky ass                (_$_)     Money coming out of his ass               (_?_)   Dumb Ass                              ..ooo*"""**ooooo .oo*""*ooo..                    .  oo*"           "*o.oo*"           "*o.                   . o"                   ‘o"                      "o                    o                      o                         *o                  .o                       o                           ‘o                 o                        o                             o.                 o                         o                             o.                o                          o                             o                o                          o/                           o                o                         –0–                           o                o.                         /o                           o                o                          o                            o               "o                          o                           o                o’"                        o                          oo                oo                         o                          oo                 oo.                       oo                        oo                  ’ooo.                  .oo.                     ooo                   "o ""oo,,        ,,oO-’Oo,       ,,,,,,..oo"                    o.         """"""    oo       """""        .o                    ’o                     oo                    o’                    *o                    oo                    o                     ‘o                     o                    o                      o                     o                   o                      o                     o                  o                       o                    o                 o                       o                    o                 o                       o                    o                 o                       o                    o                 o You have been e-mooned!

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Char, New to me–and funny. Gwen

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Some of you may have already seen this, but I thought I’d share with those that haven’t seen it yet. Have a great weekend!!! St. Mom’s Wort … Plant extract that treats mom’s depression by rendering preschoolers unconscious for up to six hours. Empty Nestrogen … Highly effective suppository that eliminates melancholy by enhancing the memory of how awful they were as teenagers and how you couldn’t wait til they moved out. Peptobimbo … Liquid silicone for single women. Two full cups swallowed before an evening out increases breast size, decreases intelligence, and improves flirting. Dumerol … When taken with Peptobimbo, can cause dangerously low I.Q. causing enjoyment of country western music. Flipitor .. Increases life expectancy of commuters by controlling road rage and the urge to flip off other drivers. Antiboyotics … When administered to teenage girls, is highly effective in improving grades, freeing up phone lines, and reducing money spent on make-up. Menicillin … Potent antibiotic for older women. Increases resistance to such lines as, "You make me want to be a better person … can we get naked now?" Buyagra … Injectable stimulant taken prior to shopping. Increases potency and duration of spending spree. Extra Strength Buy-one-all … When combined with Buyagra, can cause an indiscriminant buying frenzy so severe the victim may even come home with a Donnie Osmond CD or a book by Dr. Laura. Jack Asspirin … Relieves the headache caused by a man who can’t remember your birthday, anniversary or phone number. Anti-talksident … A spray carried in a purse or wallet to be used on anyone too eager to share their life stories with total strangers. Sexcedrin … Bedroom aerosol spray for men. More effective than Excedrin in treating the, "Not now, dear, I have a headache," syndrome. Ragamet … When administered to a husband, provides the same irritation as ragging on him all weekend, saving the wife the time and trouble of doing it herself. Men-Gay … A rub-in ointment that enables single women to identify who to cross off the dating pool. Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’.  We’re all in this together."  Red Green

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Jeannette, I love your humor!!!! I use a lot of it too, just not in my posting (the main reasing is that it is difficult to do that in another language)/. However I do understand it while reading. Don’t stop, just because very few people sometime misunderstand!!! Wendy — Many people will walk in and out of your life, But only a few will leave footprints in your heart. Olsonsej heeft geschreven in bericht – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Because we cannot see eachother’s faces and know expressions and personalities, >it is difficult to figure out if someone is just trying to be humorous or is >serious.  I have been caught in that bind a number of times now and it is not >fun. Usually I will LOL or something to let people know if I am kidding. This >last episode regarding the troll bothered me because it is quite common place >to kid around regarding trolling here as well as spaming.  I even used LOL and >smiley faces etc. to indicate that.  In spite of my efforts, some people took >me seriously.  I am sorry for that.  I try to stay on the humorous light side >of things whenever possible.  When somebody throws me a curve unexpectedly, I >am confused.  I don’t know what the moral of this story is, but humor is a good >thing and I am happy to be able to laugh when I can and kid around when I can. >If somebody is not acceptable to that, then I will refrain from kidding around >any further with that person for fear of reprocussions.  I will watch my pppp’s >and qqqq’s from now on. >Jeannette

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Hey Thanks Wendy!!!   Humor is the best medicine of any!!! Jeannette

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Please dont change who you really are.  Kidding around is a good thing and pain and loss of function can make people a little on the short side sometimes but well meant humor will win out if we are strong enough and really care for those we are dealing with.  It takes a really strong person to smile back when they have been stung a little by someone else and I am talking to myself as well.  This type of thinking is what makes ASA different from the other support groups.  We can accept people for who they are over the long haul and not for the poor joke that may be someone’s touchy point.  JMO Harv – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Because we cannot see eachother’s faces and know expressions and personalities, > it is difficult to figure out if someone is just trying to be humorous or is > serious.  I have been caught in that bind a number of times now and it is not > fun. Usually I will LOL or something to let people know if I am kidding.  This > last episode regarding the troll bothered me because it is quite common place > to kid around regarding trolling here as well as spaming.  I even used LOL and > smiley faces etc. to indicate that.  In spite of my efforts, some people took > me seriously.  I am sorry for that.  I try to stay on the humorous light side > of things whenever possible.  When somebody throws me a curve unexpectedly, I > am confused.  I don’t know what the moral of this story is, but humor is a good > thing and I am happy to be able to laugh when I can and kid around when I can. > If somebody is not acceptable to that, then I will refrain from kidding around > any further with that person for fear of reprocussions.  I will watch my pppp’s > and qqqq’s from now on. > Jeannette

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>Jeannette,  come on now girl, don’t quit goofing I will think you are >really sick or something is terribly wrong.  You would not want to worry >me, would you?

It seems the only ones that I have had real clashes with on this ng are of the male gender.  It seems us gals understand eachothers humor and guys understand eachothers humor, but it sometimes is difficult for the two to mix.  There are just certain people I will be careful about on this ng.  It has happened to many times.  With you Janers, you ole wench, I’ll never forget my humor……LOLOLOLOL Jeannette

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Jeannette,  come on now girl, don’t quit goofing I will think you are really sick or something is terribly wrong.  You would not want to worry me, would you? Hey how do you get a secret sender?  Noticed you got a little angel?  Is there a special club I missed out on.   LOL    Janers

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Because we cannot see eachother’s faces and know expressions and personalities, it is difficult to figure out if someone is just trying to be humorous or is serious.  I have been caught in that bind a number of times now and it is not fun. Usually I will LOL or something to let people know if I am kidding.  This last episode regarding the troll bothered me because it is quite common place to kid around regarding trolling here as well as spaming.  I even used LOL and smiley faces etc. to indicate that.  In spite of my efforts, some people took me seriously.  I am sorry for that.  I try to stay on the humorous light side of things whenever possible.  When somebody throws me a curve unexpectedly, I am confused.  I don’t know what the moral of this story is, but humor is a good thing and I am happy to be able to laugh when I can and kid around when I can. If somebody is not acceptable to that, then I will refrain from kidding around any further with that person for fear of reprocussions.  I will watch my pppp’s and qqqq’s from now on. Jeannette

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Jeanette, I am out of the loop on this one….I always think you are kidding. Dawn0 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Because we cannot see eachother’s faces and know expressions and personalities, > it is difficult to figure out if someone is just trying to be humorous or is > serious.  I have been caught in that bind a number of times now and it is not > fun. Usually I will LOL or something to let people know if I am kidding.  This > last episode regarding the troll bothered me because it is quite common place > to kid around regarding trolling here as well as spaming.  I even used LOL and > smiley faces etc. to indicate that.  In spite of my efforts, some people took > me seriously.  I am sorry for that.  I try to stay on the humorous light side > of things whenever possible.  When somebody throws me a curve unexpectedly, I > am confused.  I don’t know what the moral of this story is, but humor is a good > thing and I am happy to be able to laugh when I can and kid around when I can. > If somebody is not acceptable to that, then I will refrain from kidding around > any further with that person for fear of reprocussions.  I will watch my pppp’s > and qqqq’s from now on. > Jeannette

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Hello Folks I have been passing the ‘funnies’ onto my partner at his place of work, and he has been passing them onto his colleagues.  They are all enjoying them, so much so that my partner has passed them onto someone on California, whi he is co-authoring a book with (they are a couple of computer nerds and writing a book on ‘fly-by-wire’) Hildagh >         (_!_)      a regular ass

etc., etc

Response:

Ohhh I had to print this one.   Been toooo many times that one of these would apply. harv – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->         (_!_)      a regular ass >             (__!__)    a fat ass >             (!)        a tight ass >             (_._)      a flat ass >             (_^_)      a bubble ass >             (_*_)      a sore ass >             (_!__)     a lop-sided ass >             {_!_}      a swishy ass >             (_o_)      an ass that’s been around >              (_O_)     an ass that’s been around even more >              (_x_)     kiss my ass >              (_X_)     leave my ass alone >               (_zzz_)    a tired ass >              (_o^o_)   a wise ass >              (_13_)     an unlucky ass >                (_$_)     Money coming out of his ass >               (_?_)   Dumb Ass

Response:

        (_!_)      a regular ass             (__!__)    a fat ass             (!)        a tight ass             (_._)      a flat ass             (_^_)      a bubble ass             (_*_)      a sore ass             (_!__)     a lop-sided ass             {_!_}      a swishy ass             (_o_)      an ass that’s been around              (_O_)     an ass that’s been around even more              (_x_)     kiss my ass              (_X_)     leave my ass alone               (_zzz_)    a tired ass              (_o^o_)   a wise ass              (_13_)     an unlucky ass                (_$_)     Money coming out of his ass               (_?_)   Dumb Ass                              ..ooo*"""**ooooo .oo*""*ooo..                    .  oo*"           "*o.oo*"           "*o.                   . o"                   ‘o"                      "o                    o                      o                         *o                  .o                       o                           ‘o                 o                        o                             o.                 o                         o                             o.                o                          o                             o                o                          o/                           o                o                         –0–                           o                o.                         /o                           o                o                          o                            o               "o                          o                           o                o’"                        o                          oo                oo                         o                          oo                 oo.                       oo                        oo                  ’ooo.                  .oo.                     ooo                   "o ""oo,,        ,,oO-’Oo,       ,,,,,,..oo"                    o.         """"""    oo       """""        .o                    ’o                     oo                    o’                    *o                    oo                    o                     ‘o                     o                    o                      o                     o                   o                      o                     o                  o                       o                    o                 o                       o                    o                 o                       o                    o                 o                       o                    o                 o You have been e-mooned!

Response:

Char, New to me–and funny. Gwen

Response:

Some of you may have already seen this, but I thought I’d share with those that haven’t seen it yet. Have a great weekend!!! St. Mom’s Wort … Plant extract that treats mom’s depression by rendering preschoolers unconscious for up to six hours. Empty Nestrogen … Highly effective suppository that eliminates melancholy by enhancing the memory of how awful they were as teenagers and how you couldn’t wait til they moved out. Peptobimbo … Liquid silicone for single women. Two full cups swallowed before an evening out increases breast size, decreases intelligence, and improves flirting. Dumerol … When taken with Peptobimbo, can cause dangerously low I.Q. causing enjoyment of country western music. Flipitor .. Increases life expectancy of commuters by controlling road rage and the urge to flip off other drivers. Antiboyotics … When administered to teenage girls, is highly effective in improving grades, freeing up phone lines, and reducing money spent on make-up. Menicillin … Potent antibiotic for older women. Increases resistance to such lines as, "You make me want to be a better person … can we get naked now?" Buyagra … Injectable stimulant taken prior to shopping. Increases potency and duration of spending spree. Extra Strength Buy-one-all … When combined with Buyagra, can cause an indiscriminant buying frenzy so severe the victim may even come home with a Donnie Osmond CD or a book by Dr. Laura. Jack Asspirin … Relieves the headache caused by a man who can’t remember your birthday, anniversary or phone number. Anti-talksident … A spray carried in a purse or wallet to be used on anyone too eager to share their life stories with total strangers. Sexcedrin … Bedroom aerosol spray for men. More effective than Excedrin in treating the, "Not now, dear, I have a headache," syndrome. Ragamet … When administered to a husband, provides the same irritation as ragging on him all weekend, saving the wife the time and trouble of doing it herself. Men-Gay … A rub-in ointment that enables single women to identify who to cross off the dating pool. Char "Remember, I’m pulling for ya’.  We’re all in this together."  Red Green

Response:

UNIVERSITY OF ARKANSAS ATHLETIC OFFICE NEWS RELEASE – NEW TEAM RECRUITS AND 2002 FOOTBALL RECRUITING PROSPECTS 1. Wayfroy P. Jackson: 6′6

Question:

Mike, thanks for the info! Which Microwave did you buy? I’m a fan of Panasonic electronics, but I’m not sure how their microwaves stack up. I see that the over-the-range models seem more expensive than the regular counter-top models with the same features. Any idea why? Did the template and brackets come in the box with the microwave or did you have to buy a kit? I only have cabinets on one side of the range, but there are cabinets above the current range hood so I don’t want to extend past those. I’ll check the dimensions. Did the microwave mount flush with the wall? Where did the cord go? Depending on your answers I think I just might head out and pick one up. Thanks!!! John

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi John, I just finished doing this and it’s pretty simple.  I also replace a > non-vented hood.   I assume there are cabinets on either side of the range > where the microwave will go.  Make sure you have enough clearance between the > cabinets beforehand.  It’s probably a standardized distance but my over was a > real tight fit which made it a little difficult for one person to do.  The > microwave actually hangs on two brackets you mount on the wall.  The microwave > then bolts to the front of the brackets.  You receive a template to locate the > brackets.  My only difficulty was getting the microwave bolts started in the > front of the brackets since the brackets were angled off slightly.  A long > screwdriver blade was used to align the bracket while the bolt was started. > The only electrical work I did was to  put an outlet on the existing box the > hood was wired into so the microwave could be plugged in. No extra circuit > needed since the microwave takes a standard 15 amp circuit.   This is a project > that’s well within the skill level of anyone with a modicum of ability. Go for > it. > Mike

Response:

>I see that the over-the-range models seem more expensive than the regular >counter-top models with the same features. Any idea why? >Did the template and brackets come in the box with the microwave or did you >have to buy a kit?

Would seem like the bracket assembly and the need to build the cabinet so it could be supported by hanging, would contribute to higher cost. Also small size, especially in the vertical dimension would seem more critical for a wall hung unit, and this too could plausibly cost more. And then there is heat & moisture resistance (my countertop model doesn’t have boiling pots a few inches under it) and venting (countertop model’s cooling fan blows out back, where does over range model blow?)  And does that over-range model include an exhaust hood too?  And then there is volume, is sales volume as high for both types? Doubt it… Now, I don’t KNOW why the cost is higher except that that’s what the market seems to bear, but looks to me that an over-range unit with the "same" features, actually has MORE features, so would tend to cost more…. whatever, -v.

Response:

  Hi John,   I’ve done two of these in the past year.  Assuming that there was already   a range hood installed, it isn’t very hard.  I found the hardest part   to be installing a receptacle in the cabinet above the range.  It was   time-consuming, but very doable. : Which Microwave did you buy? I’m a fan of Panasonic electronics, but I’m not : sure how their microwaves stack up.   I love my two Sharp ovens – one is the 1610 series and the other is a   1710.  Make sure you get a 1000 Watt oven with sensor reheat – the   Sharp 1600 series doesn’t have it! : I see that the over-the-range models seem more expensive than the regular : counter-top models with the same features. Any idea why?   Well, the fan and light (since it replaces the range hood) adds to the   cost.  It’s also possible that it is built a little better because it   is a fixture. : Did the template and brackets come in the box with the microwave or did you : have to buy a kit? : I only have cabinets on one side of the range, but there are cabinets above : the current range hood so I don’t want to extend past those. I’ll check the : dimensions. : Did the microwave mount flush with the wall? Where did the cord go?   All of the mounting hardware comes with the oven.  There are two   brackets – one *must* be attached to a stud, and the other can use   anchor screws.  The screws that they give you are never long enough!   The microwave basically mounts flush with the wall on the brackets.   Good luck!   Keith

Response:

John, Just a funny anecdote regarding my own experience in this endeavor: I, like you, was unsure if this was a big deal.  I decided to go for it.  I had only one **minor** problem.  One of the holes I was drilling to mount the bracket gave me a little trouble.  Something in the wall seemed to put up a slight resistance.  I pulled the drill bit out, peered into the hole and figured it was just insulation.   So, I pushed a little harder. Suddenly a fireball and a puff of smoke shot out of the hole!  The power to the entire house went out.  After a few stunned seconds, I realized that I had drilled into a wire.  I headed to the breaker box and found NO BREAKERS were tripped.  Puzzled, I went outside to see if there was anything on the outside wall.  About two feet over from where I was drilling, sat the electric meter.  It had a large breaker just after it, which was tripped.  I had drilled into the main 220V line that fed my entire house! I catiously flipped it back on and found that the house power was OK. However, knowing that I had a 220V wire with a partial hole in it, worried me a lot.  So, at 7PM on a rainy Saturday night, I called an electrician. He came out and confirmed that I had hit the main line.  The builder had mounted the meter, then ran sideways through a few studs, then down to the electric range.  I was lucky enough to drill a hole right on the edge of the stud where the main line was stapled. After about 8 hours of work, the electrician ran a new wire segment. The whole episode cost $600!!  Add in the $350 microwave and we were soaked for nearly $1000. We moved into a new house last year, and lo and behold, there was no over-the-range microwave.  I faced another installation, this time overtop of a **GAS** range. Undeterred, I went for it.  This time, I was VERY VERY careful in drilling and had no problems.  The whole job took about 1.5 hours. So, go for it, but be careful drilling! –Phil Dickerson –Raleigh, NC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it > with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a > range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run > another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet > above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this? > Thanks, > John

Before you buy.

Response:

I got one on sale at Sears   The units are way overpriced for what you get. Unless you really, really want one, in which case they are great.  The sale price was just around $500. This unit is fully deluxe with all options and cooks in many ways very similar to a conventional oven. I had it installed for the sale price of $50,  well it was $100, but they dropped to 50 when I asked. The wiring was in place in the way of an existing outlet with a 15 amp CB. The unit is a 900W, so its only 7 or 8 maps. The installers came out, delivered the unit, and installed it in less than 2 hours. For 50 bucks,  there is no way I would do it myself. RP

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it > with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a > range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run > another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet > above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this? > Thanks, > John

Response:

So did you vent to the outside or still inside the house? The only thing that is stopping me from doing this same project is that my house has a non venting fan right now and it doesn’t make sense to retain that. — Emmanuel do you have a techie guy? www.myTechieGuy.Com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi John, I just finished doing this and it’s pretty simple.  I also replace a > non-vented hood.   I assume there are cabinets on either side of the range > where the microwave will go.  Make sure you have enough clearance between the > cabinets beforehand.  It’s probably a standardized distance but my over was a > real tight fit which made it a little difficult for one person to do.  The > microwave actually hangs on two brackets you mount on the wall.  The microwave > then bolts to the front of the brackets.  You receive a template to locate the > brackets.  My only difficulty was getting the microwave bolts started in the > front of the brackets since the brackets were angled off slightly.  A long > screwdriver blade was used to align the bracket while the bolt was started. > The only electrical work I did was to  put an outlet on the existing box the > hood was wired into so the microwave could be plugged in. No extra circuit > needed since the microwave takes a standard 15 amp circuit.   This is a project > that’s well within the skill level of anyone with a modicum of ability. Go for > it. > Mike

Response:

>My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it >with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a >range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run >another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet >above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this?

It’s pretty straightforward, however a microwave is going to draw a lot more juice than your old range hood.  They’re better installed on their own dedicated 20a circuits.  The most difficult part was getting the microwave’s vent outlet to mate with my existing vent pipe.  That took a bit of surgery to the wall and some creative use of cement board and sheet metal. Make sure the cabinet or soffet you’re hanging the microwave from is solid and can support the weight.  You’ll get a bracket and a template.  Depending on your cabinet size and structure underneath, you may need to shim it out with blocks of scrap plywood. I hung mine by myself by constructing a little scaffold over the stove.  It will be a lot easier with a second pair of hands.

Response:

Speaking of screwups..  BTW glad you are alive. One  time long ago my grandfather wanted a new vanity to replace the old hanging sink in his basement washroom.  I wanted to open a section of the wall underneath to replace and move the pipes (sink was going to be moved 90 deg. on wall to right in corner).  I had to cut through 3/8" plywood as that is what the walls were finished with.  I turned off the valves under the sink and removed it from the wall.  I then set my circular saw to slightly more than 3/8".  While my 79 year old grandfather watched over my shoulder, showing him what a home handy man I was, I proceeded to make a horizontal cut.  I cut for about 2 seconds before water went bursting all over the bathroom.  I don’t know what happened at the moment but I knocked my grandfather  over trying to rush to the water main.  Getting back an checking to see what I did, (boy can a lot of water come out of a small cut in a copper pipe in a small time), I cut through both copper supply pipes which were mounted right against the back of the plywood.  Boy did I  feel like an idiot.  Gramps thought it was funny.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> John, > Just a funny anecdote regarding my own experience in this endeavor: > I, like you, was unsure if this was a big deal.  I decided to go for > it.  I had only one **minor** problem.  One of the holes I was drilling > to mount the bracket gave me a little trouble.  Something in the wall > seemed to put up a slight resistance.  I pulled the drill bit out, > peered into the hole and figured it was just insulation.   So, I pushed > a little harder. > Suddenly a fireball and a puff of smoke shot out of the hole!  The > power to the entire house went out.  After a few stunned seconds, I > realized that I had drilled into a wire.  I headed to the breaker box > and found NO BREAKERS were tripped.  Puzzled, I went outside to see if > there was anything on the outside wall.  About two feet over from where > I was drilling, sat the electric meter.  It had a large breaker just > after it, which was tripped.  I had drilled into the main 220V line > that fed my entire house! > I catiously flipped it back on and found that the house power was OK. > However, knowing that I had a 220V wire with a partial hole in it, > worried me a lot.  So, at 7PM on a rainy Saturday night, I called an > electrician. > He came out and confirmed that I had hit the main line.  The builder > had mounted the meter, then ran sideways through a few studs, then down > to the electric range.  I was lucky enough to drill a hole right on the > edge of the stud where the main line was stapled. > After about 8 hours of work, the electrician ran a new wire segment. > The whole episode cost $600!!  Add in the $350 microwave and we were > soaked for nearly $1000. > We moved into a new house last year, and lo and behold, there was no > over-the-range microwave.  I faced another installation, this time > overtop of a **GAS** range. > Undeterred, I went for it.  This time, I was VERY VERY careful in > drilling and had no problems.  The whole job took about 1.5 hours. > So, go for it, but be careful drilling! > –Phil Dickerson > –Raleigh, NC > Hi, > My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we > replace it > with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing > a > range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to > run > another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the > cabinet > above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to > do this? > Thanks, > John > Before you buy.

Response:

Hi, My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this? Thanks, John

Response:

This should be easy. If you have a receptacle to plug into, it will be even easier. Some existing hoods plug in, rather than hardwire. A lot of people prefer to have separate circuits for large appliances. I would find out what is on the current circuit, and how many amps it is. Then ask the manufacturer/retailer. One major thing to consider is height. Measure from the floor to the TOP of the hood and from the top of the range to the top of the hood. You need to make sure that when you mount the new microwave, the bottom of it is high enough from the top of the range for clearance. As far as the physical mounting, I believe it will mount to the wall with lag bolts, but again, ask the manufacturer/retailer.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it > with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a > range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run > another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet > above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this? > Thanks, > John

Response:

Hi John, I just finished doing this and it’s pretty simple.  I also replace a non-vented hood.   I assume there are cabinets on either side of the range where the microwave will go.  Make sure you have enough clearance between the cabinets beforehand.  It’s probably a standardized distance but my over was a real tight fit which made it a little difficult for one person to do.  The microwave actually hangs on two brackets you mount on the wall.  The microwave then bolts to the front of the brackets.  You receive a template to locate the brackets.  My only difficulty was getting the microwave bolts started in the front of the brackets since the brackets were angled off slightly.  A long screwdriver blade was used to align the bracket while the bolt was started. The only electrical work I did was to  put an outlet on the existing box the hood was wired into so the microwave could be plugged in. No extra circuit needed since the microwave takes a standard 15 amp circuit.   This is a project that’s well within the skill level of anyone with a modicum of ability. Go for it. Mike

Response:

I just installed a range hood microwave. It is not a hard job, but requires two people. Don’t try to lift the microwave by yourself. My wife helped me with no problem. Mine is a Kenmore and came with good instructions. All brands mount about the same way. You will need to install a receptacle in the cabinet above the range using the existing hood cable. It should be sufficient if it’s on a 15 amp circuit.. The new microwave comes with a plate that mounts to the wall with toggle bolts. There is a template that will tell you where to drill for the toggle bolts. The microwave will be supported by the plate AND screws through the bottom of the cabinet. Once the MW is hooked to the plate, there is a latch that holds it so you can install the screws that come down through the cabinet. Good luck. — Frank Homepage: http://home.dmv.com/~frankk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it > with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a > range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run > another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet > above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this? > Thanks, > John

Response:

I got one on sale at Sears   The units are way overpriced for what you get. Unless you really, really want one, in which case they are great.  The sale price was just around $500. This unit is fully deluxe with all options and cooks in many ways very similar to a conventional oven. I had it installed for the sale price of $50,  well it was $100, but they dropped to 50 when I asked. The wiring was in place in the way of an existing outlet with a 15 amp CB. The unit is a 900W, so its only 7 or 8 maps. The installers came out, delivered the unit, and installed it in less than 2 hours. For 50 bucks,  there is no way I would do it myself. RP

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it > with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a > range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run > another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet > above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this? > Thanks, > John

Response:

Speaking of screwups..  BTW glad you are alive. One  time long ago my grandfather wanted a new vanity to replace the old hanging sink in his basement washroom.  I wanted to open a section of the wall underneath to replace and move the pipes (sink was going to be moved 90 deg. on wall to right in corner).  I had to cut through 3/8" plywood as that is what the walls were finished with.  I turned off the valves under the sink and removed it from the wall.  I then set my circular saw to slightly more than 3/8".  While my 79 year old grandfather watched over my shoulder, showing him what a home handy man I was, I proceeded to make a horizontal cut.  I cut for about 2 seconds before water went bursting all over the bathroom.  I don’t know what happened at the moment but I knocked my grandfather  over trying to rush to the water main.  Getting back an checking to see what I did, (boy can a lot of water come out of a small cut in a copper pipe in a small time), I cut through both copper supply pipes which were mounted right against the back of the plywood.  Boy did I  feel like an idiot.  Gramps thought it was funny.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> John, > Just a funny anecdote regarding my own experience in this endeavor: > I, like you, was unsure if this was a big deal.  I decided to go for > it.  I had only one **minor** problem.  One of the holes I was drilling > to mount the bracket gave me a little trouble.  Something in the wall > seemed to put up a slight resistance.  I pulled the drill bit out, > peered into the hole and figured it was just insulation.   So, I pushed > a little harder. > Suddenly a fireball and a puff of smoke shot out of the hole!  The > power to the entire house went out.  After a few stunned seconds, I > realized that I had drilled into a wire.  I headed to the breaker box > and found NO BREAKERS were tripped.  Puzzled, I went outside to see if > there was anything on the outside wall.  About two feet over from where > I was drilling, sat the electric meter.  It had a large breaker just > after it, which was tripped.  I had drilled into the main 220V line > that fed my entire house! > I catiously flipped it back on and found that the house power was OK. > However, knowing that I had a 220V wire with a partial hole in it, > worried me a lot.  So, at 7PM on a rainy Saturday night, I called an > electrician. > He came out and confirmed that I had hit the main line.  The builder > had mounted the meter, then ran sideways through a few studs, then down > to the electric range.  I was lucky enough to drill a hole right on the > edge of the stud where the main line was stapled. > After about 8 hours of work, the electrician ran a new wire segment. > The whole episode cost $600!!  Add in the $350 microwave and we were > soaked for nearly $1000. > We moved into a new house last year, and lo and behold, there was no > over-the-range microwave.  I faced another installation, this time > overtop of a **GAS** range. > Undeterred, I went for it.  This time, I was VERY VERY careful in > drilling and had no problems.  The whole job took about 1.5 hours. > So, go for it, but be careful drilling! > –Phil Dickerson > –Raleigh, NC > Hi, > My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we > replace it > with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing > a > range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to > run > another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the > cabinet > above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to > do this? > Thanks, > John > Before you buy.

Response:

John, Just a funny anecdote regarding my own experience in this endeavor: I, like you, was unsure if this was a big deal.  I decided to go for it.  I had only one **minor** problem.  One of the holes I was drilling to mount the bracket gave me a little trouble.  Something in the wall seemed to put up a slight resistance.  I pulled the drill bit out, peered into the hole and figured it was just insulation.   So, I pushed a little harder. Suddenly a fireball and a puff of smoke shot out of the hole!  The power to the entire house went out.  After a few stunned seconds, I realized that I had drilled into a wire.  I headed to the breaker box and found NO BREAKERS were tripped.  Puzzled, I went outside to see if there was anything on the outside wall.  About two feet over from where I was drilling, sat the electric meter.  It had a large breaker just after it, which was tripped.  I had drilled into the main 220V line that fed my entire house! I catiously flipped it back on and found that the house power was OK. However, knowing that I had a 220V wire with a partial hole in it, worried me a lot.  So, at 7PM on a rainy Saturday night, I called an electrician. He came out and confirmed that I had hit the main line.  The builder had mounted the meter, then ran sideways through a few studs, then down to the electric range.  I was lucky enough to drill a hole right on the edge of the stud where the main line was stapled. After about 8 hours of work, the electrician ran a new wire segment. The whole episode cost $600!!  Add in the $350 microwave and we were soaked for nearly $1000. We moved into a new house last year, and lo and behold, there was no over-the-range microwave.  I faced another installation, this time overtop of a **GAS** range. Undeterred, I went for it.  This time, I was VERY VERY careful in drilling and had no problems.  The whole job took about 1.5 hours. So, go for it, but be careful drilling! –Phil Dickerson –Raleigh, NC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it > with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a > range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run > another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet > above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this? > Thanks, > John

Before you buy.

Response:

>My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it >with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a >range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run >another circuit?

Depends on how many other things/locations that circuit feeds. Many of today’s compact counter top models only draw around 600w, the cabinet mount models draw aprox. twice that amount. ,addition of a new dedicated circuit is simplified somewhat by the fact that you can gain easy access to the wall cavity since the appliance will cover the access hole (be sure to patch the hole regardless of you cosmetic ability in this area of work). >Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet >above or is it more complex than that?

The appliance mounts onto a bracket (included) which you secure to the wall studs. Securing the bracket into two studs is advisable (these things are heavy), but if not possible, securing (at all vertical mounting points) the bracket to only one stud will work. The unit does get fastened to the cabinet, but this is simply to pull it tight to the cabinet (for cosmetic reasons) and to help stabilize the unit. A template comes with these appliances to aid in mounting the bracket in the correct location. >Do I need to hire someone to do this?

Perhaps you might purchase the unit, unpackage it and look at what is involved. Besides possible needing a dedicated circuit, you will need to remove the existing hood (electrical and vent connections,) mount the bracket securely, drill the holes in the cabinets and mount the small machine screws to stabilize the unit, connect the electrical and then properly connect the exhaust vent. None of the above is that difficult, unless you are all thumbs or have a real lack of experience with home repair in general.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it >with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a >range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run >another circuit? >Depends on how many other things/locations that circuit feeds. Many of today’s >compact counter top models only draw around 600w, the cabinet mount models draw >aprox. twice that amount. ,addition of a new dedicated circuit is simplified >somewhat by the fact that you can gain easy access to the wall cavity since the >appliance will cover the access hole (be sure to patch the hole regardless of >you cosmetic ability in this area of work). >Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet >above or is it more complex than that? >The appliance mounts onto a bracket (included) which you secure to the wall >studs. Securing the bracket into two studs is advisable (these things are >heavy), but if not possible, securing (at all vertical mounting points) the >bracket to only one stud will work. The unit does get fastened to the cabinet, >but this is simply to pull it tight to the cabinet (for cosmetic reasons) and >to help stabilize the unit. A template comes with these appliances to aid in >mounting the bracket in the correct location. >Do I need to hire someone to do this?

It can be tough to hold the unit up and secure it.  Make a platform over the stove to allow you to prop the unit up and hold in place while you secure it. We had this done and the installer did not protect the new stove top and chipped it. (Boy was the wife mad!) >Perhaps you might purchase the unit, unpackage it and look at what is involved. >Besides possible needing a dedicated circuit, you will need to remove the >existing hood (electrical and vent connections,) mount the bracket securely, >drill the holes in the cabinets and mount the small machine screws to stabilize >the unit, connect the electrical and then properly connect the exhaust vent. >None of the above is that difficult, unless you are all thumbs or have a real >lack of experience with home repair in general.

Our existing hood did not vent to the outside so hooking it up was a little easier. If you do not vent to the outside there are available kits to add a charcoal filter to the fan.   I did not add a dedicated line. This did not cause any problems nor did the lights dim every time it was turned on.  New house has the same situation, no vent to the outside. When the counter top unit dies, I probably will go with the built-in. Just be aware that it takes some getting use to getting things in and out of the over the stove units. With the countertop units you can "slide" dishes in and out.  With the built-in you have to lift them up and in.  If things are heavy or hot this can be tricky. My wife is tiny so it took her some getting used to.   Andy

Response:

Hi, My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this? Thanks, John

Response:

This should be easy. If you have a receptacle to plug into, it will be even easier. Some existing hoods plug in, rather than hardwire. A lot of people prefer to have separate circuits for large appliances. I would find out what is on the current circuit, and how many amps it is. Then ask the manufacturer/retailer. One major thing to consider is height. Measure from the floor to the TOP of the hood and from the top of the range to the top of the hood. You need to make sure that when you mount the new microwave, the bottom of it is high enough from the top of the range for clearance. As far as the physical mounting, I believe it will mount to the wall with lag bolts, but again, ask the manufacturer/retailer.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it > with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a > range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run > another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet > above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this? > Thanks, > John

Response:

I just installed a range hood microwave. It is not a hard job, but requires two people. Don’t try to lift the microwave by yourself. My wife helped me with no problem. Mine is a Kenmore and came with good instructions. All brands mount about the same way. You will need to install a receptacle in the cabinet above the range using the existing hood cable. It should be sufficient if it’s on a 15 amp circuit.. The new microwave comes with a plate that mounts to the wall with toggle bolts. There is a template that will tell you where to drill for the toggle bolts. The microwave will be supported by the plate AND screws through the bottom of the cabinet. Once the MW is hooked to the plate, there is a latch that holds it so you can install the screws that come down through the cabinet. Good luck. — Frank Homepage: http://home.dmv.com/~frankk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it > with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a > range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run > another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet > above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this? > Thanks, > John

Response:

>My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it >with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a >range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run >another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet >above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this?

It’s pretty straightforward, however a microwave is going to draw a lot more juice than your old range hood.  They’re better installed on their own dedicated 20a circuits.  The most difficult part was getting the microwave’s vent outlet to mate with my existing vent pipe.  That took a bit of surgery to the wall and some creative use of cement board and sheet metal. Make sure the cabinet or soffet you’re hanging the microwave from is solid and can support the weight.  You’ll get a bracket and a template.  Depending on your cabinet size and structure underneath, you may need to shim it out with blocks of scrap plywood. I hung mine by myself by constructing a little scaffold over the stove.  It will be a lot easier with a second pair of hands.

Response:

I got one on sale at Sears   The units are way overpriced for what you get. Unless you really, really want one, in which case they are great.  The sale price was just around $500. This unit is fully deluxe with all options and cooks in many ways very similar to a conventional oven. I had it installed for the sale price of $50,  well it was $100, but they dropped to 50 when I asked. The wiring was in place in the way of an existing outlet with a 15 amp CB. The unit is a 900W, so its only 7 or 8 maps. The installers came out, delivered the unit, and installed it in less than 2 hours. For 50 bucks,  there is no way I would do it myself. RP

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it > with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a > range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run > another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet > above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this? > Thanks, > John

Response:

Speaking of screwups..  BTW glad you are alive. One  time long ago my grandfather wanted a new vanity to replace the old hanging sink in his basement washroom.  I wanted to open a section of the wall underneath to replace and move the pipes (sink was going to be moved 90 deg. on wall to right in corner).  I had to cut through 3/8" plywood as that is what the walls were finished with.  I turned off the valves under the sink and removed it from the wall.  I then set my circular saw to slightly more than 3/8".  While my 79 year old grandfather watched over my shoulder, showing him what a home handy man I was, I proceeded to make a horizontal cut.  I cut for about 2 seconds before water went bursting all over the bathroom.  I don’t know what happened at the moment but I knocked my grandfather  over trying to rush to the water main.  Getting back an checking to see what I did, (boy can a lot of water come out of a small cut in a copper pipe in a small time), I cut through both copper supply pipes which were mounted right against the back of the plywood.  Boy did I  feel like an idiot.  Gramps thought it was funny.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> John, > Just a funny anecdote regarding my own experience in this endeavor: > I, like you, was unsure if this was a big deal.  I decided to go for > it.  I had only one **minor** problem.  One of the holes I was drilling > to mount the bracket gave me a little trouble.  Something in the wall > seemed to put up a slight resistance.  I pulled the drill bit out, > peered into the hole and figured it was just insulation.   So, I pushed > a little harder. > Suddenly a fireball and a puff of smoke shot out of the hole!  The > power to the entire house went out.  After a few stunned seconds, I > realized that I had drilled into a wire.  I headed to the breaker box > and found NO BREAKERS were tripped.  Puzzled, I went outside to see if > there was anything on the outside wall.  About two feet over from where > I was drilling, sat the electric meter.  It had a large breaker just > after it, which was tripped.  I had drilled into the main 220V line > that fed my entire house! > I catiously flipped it back on and found that the house power was OK. > However, knowing that I had a 220V wire with a partial hole in it, > worried me a lot.  So, at 7PM on a rainy Saturday night, I called an > electrician. > He came out and confirmed that I had hit the main line.  The builder > had mounted the meter, then ran sideways through a few studs, then down > to the electric range.  I was lucky enough to drill a hole right on the > edge of the stud where the main line was stapled. > After about 8 hours of work, the electrician ran a new wire segment. > The whole episode cost $600!!  Add in the $350 microwave and we were > soaked for nearly $1000. > We moved into a new house last year, and lo and behold, there was no > over-the-range microwave.  I faced another installation, this time > overtop of a **GAS** range. > Undeterred, I went for it.  This time, I was VERY VERY careful in > drilling and had no problems.  The whole job took about 1.5 hours. > So, go for it, but be careful drilling! > –Phil Dickerson > –Raleigh, NC > Hi, > My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we > replace it > with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing > a > range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to > run > another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the > cabinet > above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to > do this? > Thanks, > John > Before you buy.

Response:

John, Just a funny anecdote regarding my own experience in this endeavor: I, like you, was unsure if this was a big deal.  I decided to go for it.  I had only one **minor** problem.  One of the holes I was drilling to mount the bracket gave me a little trouble.  Something in the wall seemed to put up a slight resistance.  I pulled the drill bit out, peered into the hole and figured it was just insulation.   So, I pushed a little harder. Suddenly a fireball and a puff of smoke shot out of the hole!  The power to the entire house went out.  After a few stunned seconds, I realized that I had drilled into a wire.  I headed to the breaker box and found NO BREAKERS were tripped.  Puzzled, I went outside to see if there was anything on the outside wall.  About two feet over from where I was drilling, sat the electric meter.  It had a large breaker just after it, which was tripped.  I had drilled into the main 220V line that fed my entire house! I catiously flipped it back on and found that the house power was OK. However, knowing that I had a 220V wire with a partial hole in it, worried me a lot.  So, at 7PM on a rainy Saturday night, I called an electrician. He came out and confirmed that I had hit the main line.  The builder had mounted the meter, then ran sideways through a few studs, then down to the electric range.  I was lucky enough to drill a hole right on the edge of the stud where the main line was stapled. After about 8 hours of work, the electrician ran a new wire segment. The whole episode cost $600!!  Add in the $350 microwave and we were soaked for nearly $1000. We moved into a new house last year, and lo and behold, there was no over-the-range microwave.  I faced another installation, this time overtop of a **GAS** range. Undeterred, I went for it.  This time, I was VERY VERY careful in drilling and had no problems.  The whole job took about 1.5 hours. So, go for it, but be careful drilling! –Phil Dickerson –Raleigh, NC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it > with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a > range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run > another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet > above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this? > Thanks, > John

Before you buy.

Response:

>My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it >with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a >range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run >another circuit?

Depends on how many other things/locations that circuit feeds. Many of today’s compact counter top models only draw around 600w, the cabinet mount models draw aprox. twice that amount. ,addition of a new dedicated circuit is simplified somewhat by the fact that you can gain easy access to the wall cavity since the appliance will cover the access hole (be sure to patch the hole regardless of you cosmetic ability in this area of work). >Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet >above or is it more complex than that?

The appliance mounts onto a bracket (included) which you secure to the wall studs. Securing the bracket into two studs is advisable (these things are heavy), but if not possible, securing (at all vertical mounting points) the bracket to only one stud will work. The unit does get fastened to the cabinet, but this is simply to pull it tight to the cabinet (for cosmetic reasons) and to help stabilize the unit. A template comes with these appliances to aid in mounting the bracket in the correct location. >Do I need to hire someone to do this?

Perhaps you might purchase the unit, unpackage it and look at what is involved. Besides possible needing a dedicated circuit, you will need to remove the existing hood (electrical and vent connections,) mount the bracket securely, drill the holes in the cabinets and mount the small machine screws to stabilize the unit, connect the electrical and then properly connect the exhaust vent. None of the above is that difficult, unless you are all thumbs or have a real lack of experience with home repair in general.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it >with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a >range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run >another circuit? >Depends on how many other things/locations that circuit feeds. Many of today’s >compact counter top models only draw around 600w, the cabinet mount models draw >aprox. twice that amount. ,addition of a new dedicated circuit is simplified >somewhat by the fact that you can gain easy access to the wall cavity since the >appliance will cover the access hole (be sure to patch the hole regardless of >you cosmetic ability in this area of work). >Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet >above or is it more complex than that? >The appliance mounts onto a bracket (included) which you secure to the wall >studs. Securing the bracket into two studs is advisable (these things are >heavy), but if not possible, securing (at all vertical mounting points) the >bracket to only one stud will work. The unit does get fastened to the cabinet, >but this is simply to pull it tight to the cabinet (for cosmetic reasons) and >to help stabilize the unit. A template comes with these appliances to aid in >mounting the bracket in the correct location. >Do I need to hire someone to do this?

It can be tough to hold the unit up and secure it.  Make a platform over the stove to allow you to prop the unit up and hold in place while you secure it. We had this done and the installer did not protect the new stove top and chipped it. (Boy was the wife mad!) >Perhaps you might purchase the unit, unpackage it and look at what is involved. >Besides possible needing a dedicated circuit, you will need to remove the >existing hood (electrical and vent connections,) mount the bracket securely, >drill the holes in the cabinets and mount the small machine screws to stabilize >the unit, connect the electrical and then properly connect the exhaust vent. >None of the above is that difficult, unless you are all thumbs or have a real >lack of experience with home repair in general.

Our existing hood did not vent to the outside so hooking it up was a little easier. If you do not vent to the outside there are available kits to add a charcoal filter to the fan.   I did not add a dedicated line. This did not cause any problems nor did the lights dim every time it was turned on.  New house has the same situation, no vent to the outside. When the counter top unit dies, I probably will go with the built-in. Just be aware that it takes some getting use to getting things in and out of the over the stove units. With the countertop units you can "slide" dishes in and out.  With the built-in you have to lift them up and in.  If things are heavy or hot this can be tricky. My wife is tiny so it took her some getting used to.   Andy

Response:

Hi, My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this? Thanks, John

Response:

This should be easy. If you have a receptacle to plug into, it will be even easier. Some existing hoods plug in, rather than hardwire. A lot of people prefer to have separate circuits for large appliances. I would find out what is on the current circuit, and how many amps it is. Then ask the manufacturer/retailer. One major thing to consider is height. Measure from the floor to the TOP of the hood and from the top of the range to the top of the hood. You need to make sure that when you mount the new microwave, the bottom of it is high enough from the top of the range for clearance. As far as the physical mounting, I believe it will mount to the wall with lag bolts, but again, ask the manufacturer/retailer.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it > with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a > range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run > another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet > above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this? > Thanks, > John

Response:

I just installed a range hood microwave. It is not a hard job, but requires two people. Don’t try to lift the microwave by yourself. My wife helped me with no problem. Mine is a Kenmore and came with good instructions. All brands mount about the same way. You will need to install a receptacle in the cabinet above the range using the existing hood cable. It should be sufficient if it’s on a 15 amp circuit.. The new microwave comes with a plate that mounts to the wall with toggle bolts. There is a template that will tell you where to drill for the toggle bolts. The microwave will be supported by the plate AND screws through the bottom of the cabinet. Once the MW is hooked to the plate, there is a latch that holds it so you can install the screws that come down through the cabinet. Good luck. — Frank Homepage: http://home.dmv.com/~frankk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it > with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a > range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run > another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet > above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this? > Thanks, > John

Response:

>My counter-top microwave is broken and my wife suggested that we replace it >with one mounted over the range. How difficult is this? I’m replacing a >range hood with fan and light so there is power there. Do I need to run >another circuit? Do these types of microwaves simply screw into the cabinet >above or is it more complex than that? Do I need to hire someone to do this?

It’s pretty straightforward, however a microwave is going to draw a lot more juice than your old range hood.  They’re better installed on their own dedicated 20a circuits.  The most difficult part was getting the microwave’s vent outlet to mate with my existing vent pipe.  That took a bit of surgery to the wall and some creative use of cement board and sheet metal. Make sure the cabinet or soffet you’re hanging the microwave from is solid and can support the weight.  You’ll get a bracket and a template.  Depending on your cabinet size and structure underneath, you may need to shim it out with blocks of scrap plywood. I hung mine by myself by constructing a little scaffold over the stove.  It will be a lot easier with a second pair of hands.

Response:

Question:

Eva, you tried.  Your intentions were the best and your heart was true. Sometimes, even that is not enough.  But good show anyway, I say.  It matters more what you meant to do rather than the way it was perceived. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Little Raven, I can’t believe you see my post as a flame.  Wow. > I was trying to be nice and also sway her to my way of thinking. > I believe that’s what discussions here are about sometimes.  I > see another poster, Michael, who is very appreciative of being > informed first of what the horrible practice involves in time > to save his Hoot from the same fate.  You certainly seem to know > a lot about my opinions when you obviously didn’t read, pay > attention to the tone of my post, or cite correctly who said > what.  I didn’t start the thread on putting out flyers, but > it’s a good idea.  In my other post, I was not addressing > sugarprincess.  I was telling what I saw and how it made > me feel.  If you’ll notice, I *did* say something — you > said I didn’t.  A New Mexico slang for ya — put attention! > BTW, if you think this was a flame, you’d better put on your > asbestos suit.  :3 > Eva

Response:

It doesn’t sound to me like you were giving me a chance "not to have to defend" myself, but rather you were giving me a chance to change my opinions to YOUR OPINIONS and admit I was wrong and you were right. Which is what I did to get everyone off my back. | OK.  I was trying to be nice to you and give you a chance not to | have to defend yourself.  I tried.  :) | | Eva |

Response:

Yeah, whatever. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It doesn’t sound to me like you were giving me a chance "not to have to > defend" myself, but rather you were giving me a chance to change my opinions > to YOUR OPINIONS and admit I was wrong and you were right. Which is what I > did to get everyone off my back. > | OK.  I was trying to be nice to you and give you a chance not to > | have to defend yourself.  I tried.  :) > | > | Eva > |

Response:

My sentiments exactly.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yeah, whatever. > It doesn’t sound to me like you were giving me a chance "not to have to > defend" myself, but rather you were giving me a chance to change my opinions > to YOUR OPINIONS and admit I was wrong and you were right. Which is what I > did to get everyone off my back. > | OK.  I was trying to be nice to you and give you a chance not to > | have to defend yourself.  I tried.  :) > | > | Eva > |

Response:

> so, you think any opinion but your own is the right one?  everyone except > for "sugarprincess" on this newsgroup has taken the opinion that a > declawed cat is crippled and mutilated.  this is just making me sick. > especially that anyone who disagrees gets flamed.  no opinion but your own > is accepted.  well, my "mutilated and crippled" cats managed to jump up on > the vanity plastic thing above our bathroom sink and send it crashing to > the ground.  it has to be replaced.  according to the stuff people are > saying on here my cats shouldn’t be able to climb at all.

Well… just because most (not all) declawed cats are able to adapt to the loss of their toes doesn’t make them any less "mutiliated".  Animals are very adaptable and frequently learn to cope with handicaps of all kinds. Cats are just as dependent, in their own way, upon the final phalanx of their toes as humans are upon the final phalanx of their fingers.  A human with all ten fingers amputated to the first joint would be able to adapt and accomodate their handicap, and declawed cats adapt to *theirs*.  But the fact that they manage to cope does not make them any less handicapped and does not make the declaw surgery any less of a mutilation. > this is quite the contradiction to your opinions that declawed cats are > "mutilated, crippled and scarred for life."  the only declawed cats i have > seen that are scarred for life *mentally* were owned by abusive people.

Then you aren’t looking very closely.  There are many declawed cats who develop behavior problems that are directly caused by the declawing. Litterbox problems can happen when a declawed cat experiences pain from scratching in a litterbox and learns to associate the litterbox with the pain.  Some declawed cats start biting.  And what often happens is that these cats end up in shelters because their owners, having made the choice to declaw their cat, refuse to accept the responsibility of dealing with the consequences of that choice.  These cats who end up in shelters, if they are lucky, go to a new home with someone who cares enough to work with them to rehabilitate them.  But not all of them are so lucky.  (Ask yourself sometime, if declawing a cat ensures that it has a home for life, as so many cat owners and vets like to argue, then why are declawed cats so easy to find in shelters?) > no, not everyone who has a cat that is declawed is abusive.  mine were > adopted (declawed by previous owners).  they are still outgoing happy > cats.

Then they have managed to adapt.  Which is fortunate for them.  But ethically speaking, it doesn’t justify having declawed them in the first place. > and i remember a previous thread that they *should* have been sent to the > pound to be euthanized instead of being declawed.  it seems that this > newsgroup doesn’t even want people to *adopt* declawed cats.

If someone did in fact say that (I don’t recall reading any such statement), that was one opinion expressed by one person. If someone posts here and is adamant about wanting to declaw their cat, I often encourage them to adopt one that has already been declawed from their local shelter.  No one can undo what has already been done to those cats, but at least someone can give them a good home and at the same time hopefully save one cat from having to be declawed. > declawing *is* inhumane, but for many in the u.s. and canada it is a fact > of life.

So is pet overpopulation, but we try to do something about that by promoting the spaying and neutering of cats and dogs.  No one seems to have a problem with trying to do something about *that* particular "fact of life". There are many things that are a "fact of life".  Land mines killing and maiming people in third world countries are a fact of life.  Kids taking guns to schools and shooting other kids is a fact of life.  George Bush and Al Gore running for President is a fact of life.  All of these are "inhumane", too.  That does not mean that we have to accept those facts. Quite the contrary, we should be trying to change them, don’t you agree?

Response:

OK.  I was trying to be nice to you and give you a chance not to have to defend yourself.  I tried.  :) Eva – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Fine, Eva. I’m sorry I ever voiced any opinion whatsoever. Declawing is > inhumane and it should never be done. I promise to never post another > opinion on the topic. Enough said. (And no, I’m not saying this > sarcastically. I’m saying it in the tone of someone who has been beaten > down, is tired of trying to defend herself, and knows when to wave the white > flag.) > Y’know, you’ve already had the realization that declawing is inhumane. > Why not go one step further and back down from the stance you’ve > taken in not voicing your opinions when someone else is struggling > with the decision to declaw or not to declaw?  You could be the > one who sways them in the right direction.  All you have to do is > say you realize it was a mistake.  People here are ready to accept > that and encourage you to learn from that mistake.  You could make > a difference.  I realize that you became defensive at the very first, > but would it really be that hard to listen to your instincts that > tell you declawing is inhumane? > Eva

Response:

> Y’know, you’ve already had the realization that declawing is inhumane. > Why not go one step further and back down from the stance you’ve > taken in not voicing your opinions when someone else is struggling > with the decision to declaw or not to declaw?  You could be the > one who sways them in the right direction.  All you have to do is > say you realize it was a mistake.  People here are ready to accept > that and encourage you to learn from that mistake.  You could make > a difference.  I realize that you became defensive at the very first, > but would it really be that hard to listen to your instincts that > tell you declawing is inhumane? > Eva

so, you think any opinion but your own is the right one?  everyone except for "sugarprincess" on this newsgroup has taken the opinion that a declawed cat is crippled and mutilated.  this is just making me sick. especially that anyone who disagrees gets flamed.  no opinion but your own is accepted.  well, my "mutilated and crippled" cats managed to jump up on the vanity plastic thing above our bathroom sink and send it crashing to the ground.  it has to be replaced.  according to the stuff people are saying on here my cats shouldn’t be able to climb at all. this is quite the contradiction to your opinions that declawed cats are "mutilated, crippled and scarred for life."  the only declawed cats i have seen that are scarred for life *mentally* were owned by abusive people. no, not everyone who has a cat that is declawed is abusive.  mine were adopted (declawed by previous owners).  they are still outgoing happy cats.  according to your logic, they shouldn’t even be walking around. and i remember a previous thread that they *should* have been sent to the pound to be euthanized instead of being declawed.  it seems that this newsgroup doesn’t even want people to *adopt* declawed cats. declawing *is* inhumane, but for many in the u.s. and canada it is a fact of life.  just because someone says something in the vet’s office or the pet shop you get on here and rant.  instead of saying something to these people you propose a flier campaign on the newsgroup.  if you want to do something about it, talk to the general public.  join peta.  whatever.  DO SOMETHING! imo sugarprincess’s opinions are quite down to earth.  if i’m the only one who will agree, fine.  flame away. little_raven — Chaos reigns within. Reflect, repent, and reboot. Order shall return. http://littleraven.homestead.com    ICQ# 22859105 http://maeve.pages.petsmart.com

Response:

Little Raven, I can’t believe you see my post as a flame.  Wow. I was trying to be nice and also sway her to my way of thinking. I believe that’s what discussions here are about sometimes.  I see another poster, Michael, who is very appreciative of being informed first of what the horrible practice involves in time to save his Hoot from the same fate.  You certainly seem to know a lot about my opinions when you obviously didn’t read, pay attention to the tone of my post, or cite correctly who said what.  I didn’t start the thread on putting out flyers, but it’s a good idea.  In my other post, I was not addressing sugarprincess.  I was telling what I saw and how it made me feel.  If you’ll notice, I *did* say something — you said I didn’t.  A New Mexico slang for ya — put attention! BTW, if you think this was a flame, you’d better put on your asbestos suit.  :3 Eva

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Y’know, you’ve already had the realization that declawing is inhumane. > Why not go one step further and back down from the stance you’ve > taken in not voicing your opinions when someone else is struggling > with the decision to declaw or not to declaw?  You could be the > one who sways them in the right direction.  All you have to do is > say you realize it was a mistake.  People here are ready to accept > that and encourage you to learn from that mistake.  You could make > a difference.  I realize that you became defensive at the very first, > but would it really be that hard to listen to your instincts that > tell you declawing is inhumane? > Eva > so, you think any opinion but your own is the right one?

Its the other way around, you think *yours* is the only right opinion.  Here are a "few" more people who also agree with Eva and most of us and think *you’re* "opinion" is *wrong*: England  -  Scotland  -  Wales –   Northern  -  Ireland  -  Germany  - Austria  -   Switzerland  -  Norway – Sweden  -  Netherlands  -  Denmark  - Finland  -  Brazil  -  Australia  -  New Zealand They’re all wrong, too?  Get real.  Millions of people around the world can live in harmony with their fully clawed, **natural** cats – but *you* can’t….  What mental, psychological or emotional factor are you lacking that the rest of the world and us aren’t?  Do you actually believe all the people with fully clawed cats in all these countries live in shredded homes and are covered with festering sores from scratches from fully clawed, **natural** cats??? everyone except > for "sugarprincess" on this newsgroup has taken the opinion that a > declawed cat is crippled and mutilated.

Its not an "opinion", its a **fact**.   Declawed cats **are** crippled and mutilated. – and maimed – and disjointed – and dismembered – and disfigured.  Since you don’t know what "mutilate" and "cripple" mean, I’ll give you the dictionary definition: mutilate "To deprive of a limb or an essential part; ; cripple." Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language >this is just making me sick.

I know how how you feel.  People like you who make lame excuses and try to justify **MUTILATING** their cats for their own convenience make me sick, too! > especially that anyone who disagrees gets flamed.

Too bad that’s all we can do! no opinion but your own > is accepted.  well, my "mutilated and crippled" cats managed to jump up on > the vanity plastic thing above our bathroom sink and send it crashing to > the ground.  it has to be replaced.

But they can’t stretch and tone their back, shoulder and leg muscles by digging their claws into a material and pulling back against their clawhold. They don’t get the same effect from scratching without their claws. according to the stuff people are > saying on here my cats shouldn’t be able to climb at all.

Cats naturally like to climb **vertically** (that means "up").  Climbing vertically stretches and excercises their muscles by pulling their weight up – it feels good. > this is quite the contradiction to your opinions that declawed cats are > "mutilated, crippled and scarred for life."

Contradiction?  You can’t be serious!  Its *confirmation*!  Once again: mutilate "To deprive of a limb or an essential part; ; cripple." scar "1. A mark left on the skin after a surface injury or wound has healed. 2. A lingering sign of damage or injury" Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language At least you used the correct words – even though it was by accident… the only declawed cats i have > seen that are scarred for life *mentally* were owned by abusive people.

Look at the stumps at the end of your cats’ toes — where the distal phalanges **used to be**….   You’re correct! declawed cats *are* owned by absusive people…. if you agree with declawing, you’re one of them. > no, not everyone who has a cat that is declawed is abusive.

That’s a contradiction in terms; "declawing" and "abusive" are synonomous. mine were > adopted (declawed by previous owners).  they are still outgoing happy > cats.  according to your logic, they shouldn’t even be walking around. > and i remember a previous thread that they *should* have been sent to the > pound to be euthanized instead of being declawed.

That’s the response to emotional blackmail.  it seems that this > newsgroup doesn’t even want people to *adopt* declawed cats.

You sure do miss a lot, don’t you?  The ***first*** thing most people will say in this group *is* to adopt a declawed cat if that’s all they’re capable of having. > declawing *is* inhumane, but for many in the u.s. and canada it is a fact > of life.

So is murder, rape, child abuse… they’re all facts of life.  Does that make them right? just because someone says something in the vet’s office or the > pet shop you get on here and rant.  instead of saying something to these > people you propose a flier campaign on the newsgroup.  if you want to do > something about it, talk to the general public.  join peta.  whatever.  DO > SOMETHING!

errrr, a flier campaign **is** doing something….  its educating people about what declawing **really** is. > imo sugarprincess’s opinions are quite down to earth.

sugarprincess is in a world of her own…. and she’s the center of it. There is no point to trying to explain the moral issues of declawing to someone who is morally bankrupt.  I’m showing you the "courtesy" of a reply because at least you didn’t declaw (mutilate, maim, disjoint, dismember) your cats – you adopted them that way….  ***all*** of the declawed cats in our shelter were surrendered because of behavioral problems — biting, defensive, urinating – what they can longer mark with their claws, they mark with urine… if i’m the only one > who will agree,

Doesn’t that tell you something?  England  -  Scotland  -  Wales – Northern  -  Ireland  -  Germany  -  Austria  -   Switzerland  -  Norway – Sweden  -  Netherlands  -  Denmark  -   Finland  -  Brazil  -  Australia  - New Zealand don’t agree with you, either…. Here’s a little something for you to read: Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Professor of Behavioral Pharmacology and Director of the Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and internationally known specialist in domestic animal behavioral research, explains declawing: "The inhumanity of the procedure is clearly demonstrated by the nature of cats’ recovery from anesthesia following the surgery. Unlike routine recoveries, including recovery from neutering surgeries, which are fairly peaceful, declawing surgery results in cats bouncing off the walls of the recovery cage because of excruciating pain. Cats that are more stoic huddle in the corner of the recovery cage, immobilized in a state of helplessness, presumably by overwhelming pain. Declawing fits the dictionary definition of mutilation to a tee. Words such as deform, disfigure, disjoint, and dismember all apply to this surgery. Partial digital amputation is so horrible that it has been employed for torture of prisoners of war, and in veterinary medicine, the clinical procedure serves as model of severe pain for testing the efficacy of analgesic drugs. Even though analgesic drugs can be used postoperatively, they rarely are, and their effects are incomplete and transient anyway, so sooner or later the pain will emerge." And in since I *know* you don’t know what’s actually involved in the declawing amputations, I’ll explain it to you: "The claw is extended by pushing up under the footpad or by grasping it with Allis tissue forceps. A scalpel blade is used to sharply dissect between the second and third phalanx over the top of the ungual crest . The distal interphalangeal joint is disarticulated (disjointed), and the deep digital flexor tendon is incised (severed). The digital footpad, is not incised. If a nail trimmer is used, the ring of the instrument is placed in the groove between the second phalanx and the ungual crest. The blade is positioned just in front of the footpad. The blade is pushed through the soft tissues over the flexor process. With the ring of the nail trimmer in position behind the ungual crest, the blade is released just slightly so that traction applied to the claw causes the flexor process to slip out and above the blade. At this point, the flexor tendon can be incised and disarticulation of the joint (disjointing) completed. Both techniques effectively remove the entire third phalanx. If a larger segment of the third phalanx is left, it should be dissected out with a scalpel blade. A surgeon’s knot of absorbable suture material is sometimes used to decrease hemorrhage and to act as a "guiding suture" for second intention wound healing in large cats. " Slatter D; Textbook of Small Animal Surgery 2nd ed vol I, p.352 W.B. Saunders Company Philadelphia. (parenthesis: author) Vet Surg 1994 Jul-Aug;23(4):274-80 Feline Onychectomy at a Teaching Institution: A Retrospective Study of 163 Cases. "One hundred sixty-three cats underwent onychectomy from January 1985 to November 1992. Fifty percent of the cats had one or more complications immediately after surgery. Early postoperative complications included pain (38.1%), hemorrhage (31.9%), lameness (26.9%), swelling (6.3%), or non-weight-bearing( 5.6%). Follow-up was available in 121 cats; 19.8% developed complications after release. Late postoperative complications included infection (11.6%), regrowth (7.4%), P2 protrusion (1.7%), palmagrade stance (1.7%), and prolonged, intermittent lameness (0.8%)". ‘The Cat Fanciers’ Association recognizes that scratching is a natural behavior of cats and that cats may be defenseless without full use of their claws if they, either intentionally or unintentionally, go outdoors. Scratching … read more »

Response:

Y’know, you’ve already had the realization that declawing is inhumane. Why not go one step further and back down from the stance you’ve taken in not voicing your opinions when someone else is struggling with the decision to declaw or not to declaw?  You could be the one who sways them in the right direction.  All you have to do is say you realize it was a mistake.  People here are ready to accept that and encourage you to learn from that mistake.  You could make a difference.  I realize that you became defensive at the very first, but would it really be that hard to listen to your instincts that tell you declawing is inhumane? Eva

Response:

Fine, Eva. I’m sorry I ever voiced any opinion whatsoever. Declawing is inhumane and it should never be done. I promise to never post another opinion on the topic. Enough said. (And no, I’m not saying this sarcastically. I’m saying it in the tone of someone who has been beaten down, is tired of trying to defend herself, and knows when to wave the white flag.)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Y’know, you’ve already had the realization that declawing is inhumane. > Why not go one step further and back down from the stance you’ve > taken in not voicing your opinions when someone else is struggling > with the decision to declaw or not to declaw?  You could be the > one who sways them in the right direction.  All you have to do is > say you realize it was a mistake.  People here are ready to accept > that and encourage you to learn from that mistake.  You could make > a difference.  I realize that you became defensive at the very first, > but would it really be that hard to listen to your instincts that > tell you declawing is inhumane? > Eva

Response:

Eva, you tried.  Your intentions were the best and your heart was true. Sometimes, even that is not enough.  But good show anyway, I say.  It matters more what you meant to do rather than the way it was perceived. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Little Raven, I can’t believe you see my post as a flame.  Wow. > I was trying to be nice and also sway her to my way of thinking. > I believe that’s what discussions here are about sometimes.  I > see another poster, Michael, who is very appreciative of being > informed first of what the horrible practice involves in time > to save his Hoot from the same fate.  You certainly seem to know > a lot about my opinions when you obviously didn’t read, pay > attention to the tone of my post, or cite correctly who said > what.  I didn’t start the thread on putting out flyers, but > it’s a good idea.  In my other post, I was not addressing > sugarprincess.  I was telling what I saw and how it made > me feel.  If you’ll notice, I *did* say something — you > said I didn’t.  A New Mexico slang for ya — put attention! > BTW, if you think this was a flame, you’d better put on your > asbestos suit.  :3 > Eva

Response:

It doesn’t sound to me like you were giving me a chance "not to have to defend" myself, but rather you were giving me a chance to change my opinions to YOUR OPINIONS and admit I was wrong and you were right. Which is what I did to get everyone off my back. | OK.  I was trying to be nice to you and give you a chance not to | have to defend yourself.  I tried.  :) | | Eva |

Response:

Yeah, whatever. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It doesn’t sound to me like you were giving me a chance "not to have to > defend" myself, but rather you were giving me a chance to change my opinions > to YOUR OPINIONS and admit I was wrong and you were right. Which is what I > did to get everyone off my back. > | OK.  I was trying to be nice to you and give you a chance not to > | have to defend yourself.  I tried.  :) > | > | Eva > |

Response:

My sentiments exactly.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yeah, whatever. > It doesn’t sound to me like you were giving me a chance "not to have to > defend" myself, but rather you were giving me a chance to change my opinions > to YOUR OPINIONS and admit I was wrong and you were right. Which is what I > did to get everyone off my back. > | OK.  I was trying to be nice to you and give you a chance not to > | have to defend yourself.  I tried.  :) > | > | Eva > |

Response:

> so, you think any opinion but your own is the right one?  everyone except > for "sugarprincess" on this newsgroup has taken the opinion that a > declawed cat is crippled and mutilated.  this is just making me sick. > especially that anyone who disagrees gets flamed.  no opinion but your own > is accepted.  well, my "mutilated and crippled" cats managed to jump up on > the vanity plastic thing above our bathroom sink and send it crashing to > the ground.  it has to be replaced.  according to the stuff people are > saying on here my cats shouldn’t be able to climb at all.

Well… just because most (not all) declawed cats are able to adapt to the loss of their toes doesn’t make them any less "mutiliated".  Animals are very adaptable and frequently learn to cope with handicaps of all kinds. Cats are just as dependent, in their own way, upon the final phalanx of their toes as humans are upon the final phalanx of their fingers.  A human with all ten fingers amputated to the first joint would be able to adapt and accomodate their handicap, and declawed cats adapt to *theirs*.  But the fact that they manage to cope does not make them any less handicapped and does not make the declaw surgery any less of a mutilation. > this is quite the contradiction to your opinions that declawed cats are > "mutilated, crippled and scarred for life."  the only declawed cats i have > seen that are scarred for life *mentally* were owned by abusive people.

Then you aren’t looking very closely.  There are many declawed cats who develop behavior problems that are directly caused by the declawing. Litterbox problems can happen when a declawed cat experiences pain from scratching in a litterbox and learns to associate the litterbox with the pain.  Some declawed cats start biting.  And what often happens is that these cats end up in shelters because their owners, having made the choice to declaw their cat, refuse to accept the responsibility of dealing with the consequences of that choice.  These cats who end up in shelters, if they are lucky, go to a new home with someone who cares enough to work with them to rehabilitate them.  But not all of them are so lucky.  (Ask yourself sometime, if declawing a cat ensures that it has a home for life, as so many cat owners and vets like to argue, then why are declawed cats so easy to find in shelters?) > no, not everyone who has a cat that is declawed is abusive.  mine were > adopted (declawed by previous owners).  they are still outgoing happy > cats.

Then they have managed to adapt.  Which is fortunate for them.  But ethically speaking, it doesn’t justify having declawed them in the first place. > and i remember a previous thread that they *should* have been sent to the > pound to be euthanized instead of being declawed.  it seems that this > newsgroup doesn’t even want people to *adopt* declawed cats.

If someone did in fact say that (I don’t recall reading any such statement), that was one opinion expressed by one person. If someone posts here and is adamant about wanting to declaw their cat, I often encourage them to adopt one that has already been declawed from their local shelter.  No one can undo what has already been done to those cats, but at least someone can give them a good home and at the same time hopefully save one cat from having to be declawed. > declawing *is* inhumane, but for many in the u.s. and canada it is a fact > of life.

So is pet overpopulation, but we try to do something about that by promoting the spaying and neutering of cats and dogs.  No one seems to have a problem with trying to do something about *that* particular "fact of life". There are many things that are a "fact of life".  Land mines killing and maiming people in third world countries are a fact of life.  Kids taking guns to schools and shooting other kids is a fact of life.  George Bush and Al Gore running for President is a fact of life.  All of these are "inhumane", too.  That does not mean that we have to accept those facts. Quite the contrary, we should be trying to change them, don’t you agree?

Response:

OK.  I was trying to be nice to you and give you a chance not to have to defend yourself.  I tried.  :) Eva – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Fine, Eva. I’m sorry I ever voiced any opinion whatsoever. Declawing is > inhumane and it should never be done. I promise to never post another > opinion on the topic. Enough said. (And no, I’m not saying this > sarcastically. I’m saying it in the tone of someone who has been beaten > down, is tired of trying to defend herself, and knows when to wave the white > flag.) > Y’know, you’ve already had the realization that declawing is inhumane. > Why not go one step further and back down from the stance you’ve > taken in not voicing your opinions when someone else is struggling > with the decision to declaw or not to declaw?  You could be the > one who sways them in the right direction.  All you have to do is > say you realize it was a mistake.  People here are ready to accept > that and encourage you to learn from that mistake.  You could make > a difference.  I realize that you became defensive at the very first, > but would it really be that hard to listen to your instincts that > tell you declawing is inhumane? > Eva

Response:

> Y’know, you’ve already had the realization that declawing is inhumane. > Why not go one step further and back down from the stance you’ve > taken in not voicing your opinions when someone else is struggling > with the decision to declaw or not to declaw?  You could be the > one who sways them in the right direction.  All you have to do is > say you realize it was a mistake.  People here are ready to accept > that and encourage you to learn from that mistake.  You could make > a difference.  I realize that you became defensive at the very first, > but would it really be that hard to listen to your instincts that > tell you declawing is inhumane? > Eva

so, you think any opinion but your own is the right one?  everyone except for "sugarprincess" on this newsgroup has taken the opinion that a declawed cat is crippled and mutilated.  this is just making me sick. especially that anyone who disagrees gets flamed.  no opinion but your own is accepted.  well, my "mutilated and crippled" cats managed to jump up on the vanity plastic thing above our bathroom sink and send it crashing to the ground.  it has to be replaced.  according to the stuff people are saying on here my cats shouldn’t be able to climb at all. this is quite the contradiction to your opinions that declawed cats are "mutilated, crippled and scarred for life."  the only declawed cats i have seen that are scarred for life *mentally* were owned by abusive people. no, not everyone who has a cat that is declawed is abusive.  mine were adopted (declawed by previous owners).  they are still outgoing happy cats.  according to your logic, they shouldn’t even be walking around. and i remember a previous thread that they *should* have been sent to the pound to be euthanized instead of being declawed.  it seems that this newsgroup doesn’t even want people to *adopt* declawed cats. declawing *is* inhumane, but for many in the u.s. and canada it is a fact of life.  just because someone says something in the vet’s office or the pet shop you get on here and rant.  instead of saying something to these people you propose a flier campaign on the newsgroup.  if you want to do something about it, talk to the general public.  join peta.  whatever.  DO SOMETHING! imo sugarprincess’s opinions are quite down to earth.  if i’m the only one who will agree, fine.  flame away. little_raven — Chaos reigns within. Reflect, repent, and reboot. Order shall return. http://littleraven.homestead.com    ICQ# 22859105 http://maeve.pages.petsmart.com

Response:

Little Raven, I can’t believe you see my post as a flame.  Wow. I was trying to be nice and also sway her to my way of thinking. I believe that’s what discussions here are about sometimes.  I see another poster, Michael, who is very appreciative of being informed first of what the horrible practice involves in time to save his Hoot from the same fate.  You certainly seem to know a lot about my opinions when you obviously didn’t read, pay attention to the tone of my post, or cite correctly who said what.  I didn’t start the thread on putting out flyers, but it’s a good idea.  In my other post, I was not addressing sugarprincess.  I was telling what I saw and how it made me feel.  If you’ll notice, I *did* say something — you said I didn’t.  A New Mexico slang for ya — put attention! BTW, if you think this was a flame, you’d better put on your asbestos suit.  :3 Eva

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Y’know, you’ve already had the realization that declawing is inhumane. > Why not go one step further and back down from the stance you’ve > taken in not voicing your opinions when someone else is struggling > with the decision to declaw or not to declaw?  You could be the > one who sways them in the right direction.  All you have to do is > say you realize it was a mistake.  People here are ready to accept > that and encourage you to learn from that mistake.  You could make > a difference.  I realize that you became defensive at the very first, > but would it really be that hard to listen to your instincts that > tell you declawing is inhumane? > Eva > so, you think any opinion but your own is the right one?

Its the other way around, you think *yours* is the only right opinion.  Here are a "few" more people who also agree with Eva and most of us and think *you’re* "opinion" is *wrong*: England  -  Scotland  -  Wales –   Northern  -  Ireland  -  Germany  - Austria  -   Switzerland  -  Norway – Sweden  -  Netherlands  -  Denmark  - Finland  -  Brazil  -  Australia  -  New Zealand They’re all wrong, too?  Get real.  Millions of people around the world can live in harmony with their fully clawed, **natural** cats – but *you* can’t….  What mental, psychological or emotional factor are you lacking that the rest of the world and us aren’t?  Do you actually believe all the people with fully clawed cats in all these countries live in shredded homes and are covered with festering sores from scratches from fully clawed, **natural** cats??? everyone except > for "sugarprincess" on this newsgroup has taken the opinion that a > declawed cat is crippled and mutilated.

Its not an "opinion", its a **fact**.   Declawed cats **are** crippled and mutilated. – and maimed – and disjointed – and dismembered – and disfigured.  Since you don’t know what "mutilate" and "cripple" mean, I’ll give you the dictionary definition: mutilate "To deprive of a limb or an essential part; ; cripple." Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language >this is just making me sick.

I know how how you feel.  People like you who make lame excuses and try to justify **MUTILATING** their cats for their own convenience make me sick, too! > especially that anyone who disagrees gets flamed.

Too bad that’s all we can do! no opinion but your own > is accepted.  well, my "mutilated and crippled" cats managed to jump up on > the vanity plastic thing above our bathroom sink and send it crashing to > the ground.  it has to be replaced.

But they can’t stretch and tone their back, shoulder and leg muscles by digging their claws into a material and pulling back against their clawhold. They don’t get the same effect from scratching without their claws. according to the stuff people are > saying on here my cats shouldn’t be able to climb at all.

Cats naturally like to climb **vertically** (that means "up").  Climbing vertically stretches and excercises their muscles by pulling their weight up – it feels good. > this is quite the contradiction to your opinions that declawed cats are > "mutilated, crippled and scarred for life."

Contradiction?  You can’t be serious!  Its *confirmation*!  Once again: mutilate "To deprive of a limb or an essential part; ; cripple." scar "1. A mark left on the skin after a surface injury or wound has healed. 2. A lingering sign of damage or injury" Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language At least you used the correct words – even though it was by accident… the only declawed cats i have > seen that are scarred for life *mentally* were owned by abusive people.

Look at the stumps at the end of your cats’ toes — where the distal phalanges **used to be**….   You’re correct! declawed cats *are* owned by absusive people…. if you agree with declawing, you’re one of them. > no, not everyone who has a cat that is declawed is abusive.

That’s a contradiction in terms; "declawing" and "abusive" are synonomous. mine were > adopted (declawed by previous owners).  they are still outgoing happy > cats.  according to your logic, they shouldn’t even be walking around. > and i remember a previous thread that they *should* have been sent to the > pound to be euthanized instead of being declawed.

That’s the response to emotional blackmail.  it seems that this > newsgroup doesn’t even want people to *adopt* declawed cats.

You sure do miss a lot, don’t you?  The ***first*** thing most people will say in this group *is* to adopt a declawed cat if that’s all they’re capable of having. > declawing *is* inhumane, but for many in the u.s. and canada it is a fact > of life.

So is murder, rape, child abuse… they’re all facts of life.  Does that make them right? just because someone says something in the vet’s office or the > pet shop you get on here and rant.  instead of saying something to these > people you propose a flier campaign on the newsgroup.  if you want to do > something about it, talk to the general public.  join peta.  whatever.  DO > SOMETHING!

errrr, a flier campaign **is** doing something….  its educating people about what declawing **really** is. > imo sugarprincess’s opinions are quite down to earth.

sugarprincess is in a world of her own…. and she’s the center of it. There is no point to trying to explain the moral issues of declawing to someone who is morally bankrupt.  I’m showing you the "courtesy" of a reply because at least you didn’t declaw (mutilate, maim, disjoint, dismember) your cats – you adopted them that way….  ***all*** of the declawed cats in our shelter were surrendered because of behavioral problems — biting, defensive, urinating – what they can longer mark with their claws, they mark with urine… if i’m the only one > who will agree,

Doesn’t that tell you something?  England  -  Scotland  -  Wales – Northern  -  Ireland  -  Germany  -  Austria  -   Switzerland  -  Norway – Sweden  -  Netherlands  -  Denmark  -   Finland  -  Brazil  -  Australia  - New Zealand don’t agree with you, either…. Here’s a little something for you to read: Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Professor of Behavioral Pharmacology and Director of the Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and internationally known specialist in domestic animal behavioral research, explains declawing: "The inhumanity of the procedure is clearly demonstrated by the nature of cats’ recovery from anesthesia following the surgery. Unlike routine recoveries, including recovery from neutering surgeries, which are fairly peaceful, declawing surgery results in cats bouncing off the walls of the recovery cage because of excruciating pain. Cats that are more stoic huddle in the corner of the recovery cage, immobilized in a state of helplessness, presumably by overwhelming pain. Declawing fits the dictionary definition of mutilation to a tee. Words such as deform, disfigure, disjoint, and dismember all apply to this surgery. Partial digital amputation is so horrible that it has been employed for torture of prisoners of war, and in veterinary medicine, the clinical procedure serves as model of severe pain for testing the efficacy of analgesic drugs. Even though analgesic drugs can be used postoperatively, they rarely are, and their effects are incomplete and transient anyway, so sooner or later the pain will emerge." And in since I *know* you don’t know what’s actually involved in the declawing amputations, I’ll explain it to you: "The claw is extended by pushing up under the footpad or by grasping it with Allis tissue forceps. A scalpel blade is used to sharply dissect between the second and third phalanx over the top of the ungual crest . The distal interphalangeal joint is disarticulated (disjointed), and the deep digital flexor tendon is incised (severed). The digital footpad, is not incised. If a nail trimmer is used, the ring of the instrument is placed in the groove between the second phalanx and the ungual crest. The blade is positioned just in front of the footpad. The blade is pushed through the soft tissues over the flexor process. With the ring of the nail trimmer in position behind the ungual crest, the blade is released just slightly so that traction applied to the claw causes the flexor process to slip out and above the blade. At this point, the flexor tendon can be incised and disarticulation of the joint (disjointing) completed. Both techniques effectively remove the entire third phalanx. If a larger segment of the third phalanx is left, it should be dissected out with a scalpel blade. A surgeon’s knot of absorbable suture material is sometimes used to decrease hemorrhage and to act as a "guiding suture" for second intention wound healing in large cats. " Slatter D; Textbook of Small Animal Surgery 2nd ed vol I, p.352 W.B. Saunders Company Philadelphia. (parenthesis: author) Vet Surg 1994 Jul-Aug;23(4):274-80 Feline Onychectomy at a Teaching Institution: A Retrospective Study of 163 Cases. "One hundred sixty-three cats underwent onychectomy from January 1985 to November 1992. Fifty percent of the cats had one or more complications immediately after surgery. Early postoperative complications included pain (38.1%), hemorrhage (31.9%), lameness (26.9%), swelling (6.3%), or non-weight-bearing( 5.6%). Follow-up was available in 121 cats; 19.8% developed complications after release. Late postoperative complications included infection (11.6%), regrowth (7.4%), P2 protrusion (1.7%), palmagrade stance (1.7%), and prolonged, intermittent lameness (0.8%)". ‘The Cat Fanciers’ Association recognizes that scratching is a natural behavior of cats and that cats may be defenseless without full use of their claws if they, either intentionally or unintentionally, go outdoors. Scratching … read more »

Response:

Y’know, you’ve already had the realization that declawing is inhumane. Why not go one step further and back down from the stance you’ve taken in not voicing your opinions when someone else is struggling with the decision to declaw or not to declaw?  You could be the one who sways them in the right direction.  All you have to do is say you realize it was a mistake.  People here are ready to accept that and encourage you to learn from that mistake.  You could make a difference.  I realize that you became defensive at the very first, but would it really be that hard to listen to your instincts that tell you declawing is inhumane? Eva

Response:

Fine, Eva. I’m sorry I ever voiced any opinion whatsoever. Declawing is inhumane and it should never be done. I promise to never post another opinion on the topic. Enough said. (And no, I’m not saying this sarcastically. I’m saying it in the tone of someone who has been beaten down, is tired of trying to defend herself, and knows when to wave the white flag.)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Y’know, you’ve already had the realization that declawing is inhumane. > Why not go one step further and back down from the stance you’ve > taken in not voicing your opinions when someone else is struggling > with the decision to declaw or not to declaw?  You could be the > one who sways them in the right direction.  All you have to do is > say you realize it was a mistake.  People here are ready to accept > that and encourage you to learn from that mistake.  You could make > a difference.  I realize that you became defensive at the very first, > but would it really be that hard to listen to your instincts that > tell you declawing is inhumane? > Eva

Response:

Eva, you tried.  Your intentions were the best and your heart was true. Sometimes, even that is not enough.  But good show anyway, I say.  It matters more what you meant to do rather than the way it was perceived. Paul

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Little Raven, I can’t believe you see my post as a flame.  Wow. > I was trying to be nice and also sway her to my way of thinking. > I believe that’s what discussions here are about sometimes.  I > see another poster, Michael, who is very appreciative of being > informed first of what the horrible practice involves in time > to save his Hoot from the same fate.  You certainly seem to know > a lot about my opinions when you obviously didn’t read, pay > attention to the tone of my post, or cite correctly who said > what.  I didn’t start the thread on putting out flyers, but > it’s a good idea.  In my other post, I was not addressing > sugarprincess.  I was telling what I saw and how it made > me feel.  If you’ll notice, I *did* say something — you > said I didn’t.  A New Mexico slang for ya — put attention! > BTW, if you think this was a flame, you’d better put on your > asbestos suit.  :3 > Eva

Response:

It doesn’t sound to me like you were giving me a chance "not to have to defend" myself, but rather you were giving me a chance to change my opinions to YOUR OPINIONS and admit I was wrong and you were right. Which is what I did to get everyone off my back. | OK.  I was trying to be nice to you and give you a chance not to | have to defend yourself.  I tried.  :) | | Eva |

Response:

Yeah, whatever. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It doesn’t sound to me like you were giving me a chance "not to have to > defend" myself, but rather you were giving me a chance to change my opinions > to YOUR OPINIONS and admit I was wrong and you were right. Which is what I > did to get everyone off my back. > | OK.  I was trying to be nice to you and give you a chance not to > | have to defend yourself.  I tried.  :) > | > | Eva > |

Response:

My sentiments exactly.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yeah, whatever. > It doesn’t sound to me like you were giving me a chance "not to have to > defend" myself, but rather you were giving me a chance to change my opinions > to YOUR OPINIONS and admit I was wrong and you were right. Which is what I > did to get everyone off my back. > | OK.  I was trying to be nice to you and give you a chance not to > | have to defend yourself.  I tried.  :) > | > | Eva > |

Response:

> so, you think any opinion but your own is the right one?  everyone except > for "sugarprincess" on this newsgroup has taken the opinion that a > declawed cat is crippled and mutilated.  this is just making me sick. > especially that anyone who disagrees gets flamed.  no opinion but your own > is accepted.  well, my "mutilated and crippled" cats managed to jump up on > the vanity plastic thing above our bathroom sink and send it crashing to > the ground.  it has to be replaced.  according to the stuff people are > saying on here my cats shouldn’t be able to climb at all.

Well… just because most (not all) declawed cats are able to adapt to the loss of their toes doesn’t make them any less "mutiliated".  Animals are very adaptable and frequently learn to cope with handicaps of all kinds. Cats are just as dependent, in their own way, upon the final phalanx of their toes as humans are upon the final phalanx of their fingers.  A human with all ten fingers amputated to the first joint would be able to adapt and accomodate their handicap, and declawed cats adapt to *theirs*.  But the fact that they manage to cope does not make them any less handicapped and does not make the declaw surgery any less of a mutilation. > this is quite the contradiction to your opinions that declawed cats are > "mutilated, crippled and scarred for life."  the only declawed cats i have > seen that are scarred for life *mentally* were owned by abusive people.

Then you aren’t looking very closely.  There are many declawed cats who develop behavior problems that are directly caused by the declawing. Litterbox problems can happen when a declawed cat experiences pain from scratching in a litterbox and learns to associate the litterbox with the pain.  Some declawed cats start biting.  And what often happens is that these cats end up in shelters because their owners, having made the choice to declaw their cat, refuse to accept the responsibility of dealing with the consequences of that choice.  These cats who end up in shelters, if they are lucky, go to a new home with someone who cares enough to work with them to rehabilitate them.  But not all of them are so lucky.  (Ask yourself sometime, if declawing a cat ensures that it has a home for life, as so many cat owners and vets like to argue, then why are declawed cats so easy to find in shelters?) > no, not everyone who has a cat that is declawed is abusive.  mine were > adopted (declawed by previous owners).  they are still outgoing happy > cats.

Then they have managed to adapt.  Which is fortunate for them.  But ethically speaking, it doesn’t justify having declawed them in the first place. > and i remember a previous thread that they *should* have been sent to the > pound to be euthanized instead of being declawed.  it seems that this > newsgroup doesn’t even want people to *adopt* declawed cats.

If someone did in fact say that (I don’t recall reading any such statement), that was one opinion expressed by one person. If someone posts here and is adamant about wanting to declaw their cat, I often encourage them to adopt one that has already been declawed from their local shelter.  No one can undo what has already been done to those cats, but at least someone can give them a good home and at the same time hopefully save one cat from having to be declawed. > declawing *is* inhumane, but for many in the u.s. and canada it is a fact > of life.

So is pet overpopulation, but we try to do something about that by promoting the spaying and neutering of cats and dogs.  No one seems to have a problem with trying to do something about *that* particular "fact of life". There are many things that are a "fact of life".  Land mines killing and maiming people in third world countries are a fact of life.  Kids taking guns to schools and shooting other kids is a fact of life.  George Bush and Al Gore running for President is a fact of life.  All of these are "inhumane", too.  That does not mean that we have to accept those facts. Quite the contrary, we should be trying to change them, don’t you agree?

Response:

OK.  I was trying to be nice to you and give you a chance not to have to defend yourself.  I tried.  :) Eva – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Fine, Eva. I’m sorry I ever voiced any opinion whatsoever. Declawing is > inhumane and it should never be done. I promise to never post another > opinion on the topic. Enough said. (And no, I’m not saying this > sarcastically. I’m saying it in the tone of someone who has been beaten > down, is tired of trying to defend herself, and knows when to wave the white > flag.) > Y’know, you’ve already had the realization that declawing is inhumane. > Why not go one step further and back down from the stance you’ve > taken in not voicing your opinions when someone else is struggling > with the decision to declaw or not to declaw?  You could be the > one who sways them in the right direction.  All you have to do is > say you realize it was a mistake.  People here are ready to accept > that and encourage you to learn from that mistake.  You could make > a difference.  I realize that you became defensive at the very first, > but would it really be that hard to listen to your instincts that > tell you declawing is inhumane? > Eva

Response:

> Y’know, you’ve already had the realization that declawing is inhumane. > Why not go one step further and back down from the stance you’ve > taken in not voicing your opinions when someone else is struggling > with the decision to declaw or not to declaw?  You could be the > one who sways them in the right direction.  All you have to do is > say you realize it was a mistake.  People here are ready to accept > that and encourage you to learn from that mistake.  You could make > a difference.  I realize that you became defensive at the very first, > but would it really be that hard to listen to your instincts that > tell you declawing is inhumane? > Eva

so, you think any opinion but your own is the right one?  everyone except for "sugarprincess" on this newsgroup has taken the opinion that a declawed cat is crippled and mutilated.  this is just making me sick. especially that anyone who disagrees gets flamed.  no opinion but your own is accepted.  well, my "mutilated and crippled" cats managed to jump up on the vanity plastic thing above our bathroom sink and send it crashing to the ground.  it has to be replaced.  according to the stuff people are saying on here my cats shouldn’t be able to climb at all. this is quite the contradiction to your opinions that declawed cats are "mutilated, crippled and scarred for life."  the only declawed cats i have seen that are scarred for life *mentally* were owned by abusive people. no, not everyone who has a cat that is declawed is abusive.  mine were adopted (declawed by previous owners).  they are still outgoing happy cats.  according to your logic, they shouldn’t even be walking around. and i remember a previous thread that they *should* have been sent to the pound to be euthanized instead of being declawed.  it seems that this newsgroup doesn’t even want people to *adopt* declawed cats. declawing *is* inhumane, but for many in the u.s. and canada it is a fact of life.  just because someone says something in the vet’s office or the pet shop you get on here and rant.  instead of saying something to these people you propose a flier campaign on the newsgroup.  if you want to do something about it, talk to the general public.  join peta.  whatever.  DO SOMETHING! imo sugarprincess’s opinions are quite down to earth.  if i’m the only one who will agree, fine.  flame away. little_raven — Chaos reigns within. Reflect, repent, and reboot. Order shall return. http://littleraven.homestead.com    ICQ# 22859105 http://maeve.pages.petsmart.com

Response:

Little Raven, I can’t believe you see my post as a flame.  Wow. I was trying to be nice and also sway her to my way of thinking. I believe that’s what discussions here are about sometimes.  I see another poster, Michael, who is very appreciative of being informed first of what the horrible practice involves in time to save his Hoot from the same fate.  You certainly seem to know a lot about my opinions when you obviously didn’t read, pay attention to the tone of my post, or cite correctly who said what.  I didn’t start the thread on putting out flyers, but it’s a good idea.  In my other post, I was not addressing sugarprincess.  I was telling what I saw and how it made me feel.  If you’ll notice, I *did* say something — you said I didn’t.  A New Mexico slang for ya — put attention! BTW, if you think this was a flame, you’d better put on your asbestos suit.  :3 Eva

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Y’know, you’ve already had the realization that declawing is inhumane. > Why not go one step further and back down from the stance you’ve > taken in not voicing your opinions when someone else is struggling > with the decision to declaw or not to declaw?  You could be the > one who sways them in the right direction.  All you have to do is > say you realize it was a mistake.  People here are ready to accept > that and encourage you to learn from that mistake.  You could make > a difference.  I realize that you became defensive at the very first, > but would it really be that hard to listen to your instincts that > tell you declawing is inhumane? > Eva > so, you think any opinion but your own is the right one?

Its the other way around, you think *yours* is the only right opinion.  Here are a "few" more people who also agree with Eva and most of us and think *you’re* "opinion" is *wrong*: England  -  Scotland  -  Wales –   Northern  -  Ireland  -  Germany  - Austria  -   Switzerland  -  Norway – Sweden  -  Netherlands  -  Denmark  - Finland  -  Brazil  -  Australia  -  New Zealand They’re all wrong, too?  Get real.  Millions of people around the world can live in harmony with their fully clawed, **natural** cats – but *you* can’t….  What mental, psychological or emotional factor are you lacking that the rest of the world and us aren’t?  Do you actually believe all the people with fully clawed cats in all these countries live in shredded homes and are covered with festering sores from scratches from fully clawed, **natural** cats??? everyone except > for "sugarprincess" on this newsgroup has taken the opinion that a > declawed cat is crippled and mutilated.

Its not an "opinion", its a **fact**.   Declawed cats **are** crippled and mutilated. – and maimed – and disjointed – and dismembered – and disfigured.  Since you don’t know what "mutilate" and "cripple" mean, I’ll give you the dictionary definition: mutilate "To deprive of a limb or an essential part; ; cripple." Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language >this is just making me sick.

I know how how you feel.  People like you who make lame excuses and try to justify **MUTILATING** their cats for their own convenience make me sick, too! > especially that anyone who disagrees gets flamed.

Too bad that’s all we can do! no opinion but your own > is accepted.  well, my "mutilated and crippled" cats managed to jump up on > the vanity plastic thing above our bathroom sink and send it crashing to > the ground.  it has to be replaced.

But they can’t stretch and tone their back, shoulder and leg muscles by digging their claws into a material and pulling back against their clawhold. They don’t get the same effect from scratching without their claws. according to the stuff people are > saying on here my cats shouldn’t be able to climb at all.

Cats naturally like to climb **vertically** (that means "up").  Climbing vertically stretches and excercises their muscles by pulling their weight up – it feels good. > this is quite the contradiction to your opinions that declawed cats are > "mutilated, crippled and scarred for life."

Contradiction?  You can’t be serious!  Its *confirmation*!  Once again: mutilate "To deprive of a limb or an essential part; ; cripple." scar "1. A mark left on the skin after a surface injury or wound has healed. 2. A lingering sign of damage or injury" Excerpted from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language At least you used the correct words – even though it was by accident… the only declawed cats i have > seen that are scarred for life *mentally* were owned by abusive people.

Look at the stumps at the end of your cats’ toes — where the distal phalanges **used to be**….   You’re correct! declawed cats *are* owned by absusive people…. if you agree with declawing, you’re one of them. > no, not everyone who has a cat that is declawed is abusive.

That’s a contradiction in terms; "declawing" and "abusive" are synonomous. mine were > adopted (declawed by previous owners).  they are still outgoing happy > cats.  according to your logic, they shouldn’t even be walking around. > and i remember a previous thread that they *should* have been sent to the > pound to be euthanized instead of being declawed.

That’s the response to emotional blackmail.  it seems that this > newsgroup doesn’t even want people to *adopt* declawed cats.

You sure do miss a lot, don’t you?  The ***first*** thing most people will say in this group *is* to adopt a declawed cat if that’s all they’re capable of having. > declawing *is* inhumane, but for many in the u.s. and canada it is a fact > of life.

So is murder, rape, child abuse… they’re all facts of life.  Does that make them right? just because someone says something in the vet’s office or the > pet shop you get on here and rant.  instead of saying something to these > people you propose a flier campaign on the newsgroup.  if you want to do > something about it, talk to the general public.  join peta.  whatever.  DO > SOMETHING!

errrr, a flier campaign **is** doing something….  its educating people about what declawing **really** is. > imo sugarprincess’s opinions are quite down to earth.

sugarprincess is in a world of her own…. and she’s the center of it. There is no point to trying to explain the moral issues of declawing to someone who is morally bankrupt.  I’m showing you the "courtesy" of a reply because at least you didn’t declaw (mutilate, maim, disjoint, dismember) your cats – you adopted them that way….  ***all*** of the declawed cats in our shelter were surrendered because of behavioral problems — biting, defensive, urinating – what they can longer mark with their claws, they mark with urine… if i’m the only one > who will agree,

Doesn’t that tell you something?  England  -  Scotland  -  Wales – Northern  -  Ireland  -  Germany  -  Austria  -   Switzerland  -  Norway – Sweden  -  Netherlands  -  Denmark  -   Finland  -  Brazil  -  Australia  - New Zealand don’t agree with you, either…. Here’s a little something for you to read: Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Professor of Behavioral Pharmacology and Director of the Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and internationally known specialist in domestic animal behavioral research, explains declawing: "The inhumanity of the procedure is clearly demonstrated by the nature of cats’ recovery from anesthesia following the surgery. Unlike routine recoveries, including recovery from neutering surgeries, which are fairly peaceful, declawing surgery results in cats bouncing off the walls of the recovery cage because of excruciating pain. Cats that are more stoic huddle in the corner of the recovery cage, immobilized in a state of helplessness, presumably by overwhelming pain. Declawing fits the dictionary definition of mutilation to a tee. Words such as deform, disfigure, disjoint, and dismember all apply to this surgery. Partial digital amputation is so horrible that it has been employed for torture of prisoners of war, and in veterinary medicine, the clinical procedure serves as model of severe pain for testing the efficacy of analgesic drugs. Even though analgesic drugs can be used postoperatively, they rarely are, and their effects are incomplete and transient anyway, so sooner or later the pain will emerge." And in since I *know* you don’t know what’s actually involved in the declawing amputations, I’ll explain it to you: "The claw is extended by pushing up under the footpad or by grasping it with Allis tissue forceps. A scalpel blade is used to sharply dissect between the second and third phalanx over the top of the ungual crest . The distal interphalangeal joint is disarticulated (disjointed), and the deep digital flexor tendon is incised (severed). The digital footpad, is not incised. If a nail trimmer is used, the ring of the instrument is placed in the groove between the second phalanx and the ungual crest. The blade is positioned just in front of the footpad. The blade is pushed through the soft tissues over the flexor process. With the ring of the nail trimmer in position behind the ungual crest, the blade is released just slightly so that traction applied to the claw causes the flexor process to slip out and above the blade. At this point, the flexor tendon can be incised and disarticulation of the joint (disjointing) completed. Both techniques effectively remove the entire third phalanx. If a larger segment of the third phalanx is left, it should be dissected out with a scalpel blade. A surgeon’s knot of absorbable suture material is sometimes used to decrease hemorrhage and to act as a "guiding suture" for second intention wound healing in large cats. " Slatter D; Textbook of Small Animal Surgery 2nd ed vol I, p.352 W.B. Saunders Company Philadelphia. (parenthesis: author) Vet Surg 1994 Jul-Aug;23(4):274-80 Feline Onychectomy at a Teaching Institution: A Retrospective Study of 163 Cases. "One hundred sixty-three cats underwent onychectomy from January 1985 to November 1992. Fifty percent of the cats had one or more complications immediately after surgery. Early postoperative complications included pain (38.1%), hemorrhage (31.9%), lameness (26.9%), swelling (6.3%), or non-weight-bearing( 5.6%). Follow-up was available in 121 cats; 19.8% developed complications after release. Late postoperative complications included infection (11.6%), regrowth (7.4%), P2 protrusion (1.7%), palmagrade stance (1.7%), and prolonged, intermittent lameness (0.8%)". ‘The Cat Fanciers’ Association recognizes that scratching is a natural behavior of cats and that cats may be defenseless without full use of their claws if they, either intentionally or unintentionally, go outdoors. Scratching … read more »

Response:

Y’know, you’ve already had the realization that declawing is inhumane. Why not go one step further and back down from the stance you’ve taken in not voicing your opinions when someone else is struggling with the decision to declaw or not to declaw?  You could be the one who sways them in the right direction.  All you have to do is say you realize it was a mistake.  People here are ready to accept that and encourage you to learn from that mistake.  You could make a difference.  I realize that you became defensive at the very first, but would it really be that hard to listen to your instincts that tell you declawing is inhumane? Eva

Response:

Fine, Eva. I’m sorry I ever voiced any opinion whatsoever. Declawing is inhumane and it should never be done. I promise to never post another opinion on the topic. Enough said. (And no, I’m not saying this sarcastically. I’m saying it in the tone of someone who has been beaten down, is tired of trying to defend herself, and knows when to wave the white flag.)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Y’know, you’ve already had the realization that declawing is inhumane. > Why not go one step further and back down from the stance you’ve > taken in not voicing your opinions when someone else is struggling > with the decision to declaw or not to declaw?  You could be the > one who sways them in the right direction.  All you have to do is > say you realize it was a mistake.  People here are ready to accept > that and encourage you to learn from that mistake.  You could make > a difference.  I realize that you became defensive at the very first, > but would it really be that hard to listen to your instincts that > tell you declawing is inhumane? > Eva

Response:

Question:

> Good question, cuz’ my dog tries a few licks and > then tries to eat it.  We keep soap out on the > dock at our lake house and we have to remember to > pick it up, or Happy goes for it.  What he usually > does is takes a few licks and knocks it in the > water!  (Maybe it’s sweet tasting to animals?)

Don’t ferrets have a big thing for licking soap? I was doing some research for a friend that’s getting a ferret, and every site practically mentioned the soap thing. Siobhan, Clovis and Tolly.

Response:

Good question, cuz’ my dog tries a few licks and then tries to eat it.  We keep soap out on the dock at our lake house and we have to remember to pick it up, or Happy goes for it.  What he usually does is takes a few licks and knocks it in the water!  (Maybe it’s sweet tasting to animals?) — ~Just Me~ Please (removeyourshoes) before replying. "If you want the best seat in the house, you gotta move the cat"!

… > My 4.5 month old male kitten, Bebop, did

something very bizarre just now. Is > it dangerous to him in any way? > I had just finished washing with a bar of soap

and put the still-wet soap > back in its dish. Bebop heard the sound of water

running and hopped up on > the vanity to explore, as he always does. (For

animals that hate being wet, > they sure have an intense fascination with

running water.) He bent down and > started licking the soap! I immediately gave him

a light tap on the top of > the head and firmly said "NO!". He bent down and

started licking the soap > again. I repeated the tap and "NO" each time –

twice more – and then went > downstairs to set out his morning meal. > I’ve tried this technique of behaviour

modification in the past, especially > with respect to trying to discourage him and the

other cat, Samba, from > going on the kitchen table but it has never had

much effect. Therefore, two > questions: > 1. Does anyone know if licking soap could cause

a cat ill effects? It is > just ordinary Ivory bar soap. (Also, just out of

curiousity, any idea why he > would do so? Is it my scent on the soap that he

is trying to ingest? Or is > some ingredient of the soap itself appealing to him?) > 2. Can anyone think of a technique that would

stop him from continuing this > behaviour? > Reinhardt > — > Pembleton (to imaginary suspect): Son, you are

ignorance personified! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Homicide: Life on the Street

Response:

And I just thought you smelled funny!! Helen M — People who hate cats were probably mice in a former life.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yep- my cat Cocoa is also a phantom soap-licker! Though she did not go > for the lavender soap I got recently ;) ) > Deb. > — > Online portfolio http://www.scientific-art.com > Croydon Cats Protection http://www.btinternet.com/~cpl.croydon/ > "Even the smallest feline is a masterpiece." – Leonardo da Vinci

Response:

:-P pPpP No, that’s my special perfume ‘Eau de Catpee’  :)) Deb. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > And I just thought you smelled funny!! > Helen M > — > People who hate cats were probably mice in a former life. > Yep- my cat Cocoa is also a phantom soap-licker! Though she did not go > for the lavender soap I got recently ;) ) > Deb. > — > Online portfolio http://www.scientific-art.com > Croydon Cats Protection http://www.btinternet.com/~cpl.croydon/ > "Even the smallest feline is a masterpiece." – Leonardo da Vinci

– Online portfolio http://www.scientific-art.com Croydon Cats Protection http://www.btinternet.com/~cpl.croydon/ "Even the smallest feline is a masterpiece." – Leonardo da Vinci

Response:

OOOHHHH!!  That’s what your calling your perfume now is it???  ;P Helen M — People who hate cats were probably mice in a former life.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> :-P pPpP > No, that’s my special perfume ‘Eau de Catpee’  :)) > Deb. > And I just thought you smelled funny!! > Helen M > — > People who hate cats were probably mice in a former life. > > Yep- my cat Cocoa is also a phantom soap-licker! Though she did not go > > for the lavender soap I got recently ;) ) > > Deb. > > — > > Online portfolio http://www.scientific-art.com > > Croydon Cats Protection http://www.btinternet.com/~cpl.croydon/ > > "Even the smallest feline is a masterpiece." – Leonardo da Vinci > — > Online portfolio http://www.scientific-art.com > Croydon Cats Protection http://www.btinternet.com/~cpl.croydon/ > "Even the smallest feline is a masterpiece." – Leonardo da Vinci

Response:

Ho Ho Ho!!! Perhaps you’ll lend me your ‘Eau d’Ocelot’ sometime ;-) )) Deb. > OOOHHHH!!  That’s what your calling your perfume now is it???  ;P > Helen M > — > People who hate cats were probably mice in a former life. > :-P pPpP > No, that’s my special perfume ‘Eau de Catpee’  :)) > Deb.

– Online portfolio http://www.scientific-art.com Croydon Cats Protection http://www.btinternet.com/~cpl.croydon/ "Even the smallest feline is a masterpiece." – Leonardo da Vinci

Response:

Couldn’t possibly do that! It’s FAR to valuable! ;) Helen m — People who hate cats were probably mice in a former life.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ho Ho Ho!!! > Perhaps you’ll lend me your ‘Eau d’Ocelot’ sometime ;-) )) > Deb. > OOOHHHH!!  That’s what your calling your perfume now is it???  ;P > Helen M > — > People who hate cats were probably mice in a former life. > > :-P pPpP > > No, that’s my special perfume ‘Eau de Catpee’  :)) > > Deb. > — > Online portfolio http://www.scientific-art.com > Croydon Cats Protection http://www.btinternet.com/~cpl.croydon/ > "Even the smallest feline is a masterpiece." – Leonardo da Vinci

Response:

>1. Does anyone know if licking soap could cause a cat ill effects? It is >just ordinary Ivory bar soap. (Also, just out of curiousity, any idea why he >would do so? Is it my scent on the soap that he is trying to ingest? Or is >some ingredient of the soap itself appealing to him?) >2. Can anyone think of a technique that would stop him from continuing this >behaviour?

My sister’s cat, Pete, went through a stage at about the same age where he licked Ivory soap, too. Naturally, we were concerned about it, so we asked the vet about it. Her answer (it was a long time ago, so I don’t remember her exact words) boiled down to: "Who knows why he’s doing it, some cats just like the taste of different things, but it shouldn’t cause him any harm so long as he’s not eating huge chunks out of the soap." So we didn’t worry too much about it, and just removed him from the bathroom whenever we saw him start licking the soap. Pete’s soap-licking habit didn’t last too long- he had stopped well before we moved out of that apartment, so it was less than a year that he did that. He didn’t suffer any ill-effects from the soap, either, so I wouldn’t worry too much about BeBop. Give your vet a call and ask him about it, just to ease your mind, though. As to how to get him to stop, I can only suggest putting the soap where he can’t get it, or perhaps spraying it with Bitter Apple each time after you use it (but be sure to rinse off the soap before you use it!). Catherine, Loki, Freya, and Scotty the Rent-a-Brother — Generic Lame-O Signature Follows: Matos, Catherine Anne Moseley http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~cm85 Yes, I love being a graduate student! Really! I mean it!

Response:

I asked the vet about licking soap today when I had Samba and Bebop in for their booster shots. He said it was not a good idea to let them lick soap, although he couldn’t cite a specific problem that would result from doing so. He felt that non-food items should never be eaten by pets because the effects could be unpredictable. He told me about a dog who had been his patient who got progressively sicker. Diagnostic tests revealed anemia but they couldn’t figure out why. Finally, after careful observation by the owner, they discovered that the dog was eating *drywall* from the family home! Unfortunately, by this point the dog’s red blood count was virtually non-existent and there was nothing more he could do for the dog. They had to put him down. I also asked the vet why a cat might lick soap and he suggested it might be related to sex. Bebop is keen to mate with Samba and she is resisting so far (I think!). The vet suspected that licking the soap might be a sort of surrogate for mating with her; a sort of self-stimulating sensual experience. Obviously, we can’t know that for sure but it was an interesting idea.  Reinhardt — — Pembleton (to imaginary suspect): Son, you are ignorance personified! Homicide: Life on the Street – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->1. Does anyone know if licking soap could cause a cat ill effects? It is >just ordinary Ivory bar soap. (Also, just out of curiousity, any idea why he >would do so? Is it my scent on the soap that he is trying to ingest? Or is >some ingredient of the soap itself appealing to him?) >2. Can anyone think of a technique that would stop him from continuing this >behaviour? >My sister’s cat, Pete, went through a stage at about the same age where he >licked Ivory soap, too. Naturally, we were concerned about it, so we asked >the vet about it. Her answer (it was a long time ago, so I don’t remember >her exact words) boiled down to: "Who knows why he’s doing it, some cats >just like the taste of different things, but it shouldn’t cause him any >harm so long as he’s not eating huge chunks out of the soap." So we didn’t >worry too much about it, and just removed him from the bathroom whenever >we saw him start licking the soap. >Pete’s soap-licking habit didn’t last too long- he had stopped well before >we moved out of that apartment, so it was less than a year that he did >that. He didn’t suffer any ill-effects from the soap, either, so I >wouldn’t worry too much about BeBop. Give your vet a call and ask him >about it, just to ease your mind, though. >As to how to get him to stop, I can only suggest putting the soap where he >can’t get it, or perhaps spraying it with Bitter Apple each time after you >use it (but be sure to rinse off the soap before you use it!). >Catherine, Loki, Freya, and Scotty the Rent-a-Brother >– >Generic Lame-O Signature Follows: >Matos, Catherine Anne Moseley >http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~cm85 >Yes, I love being a graduate student! Really! I mean it!

Response:

All in all I would think its definitely best he not do it. There’s nothing beneficial to ingesting soap. Bet a vet would say no to it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My 4.5 month old male kitten, Bebop, did something very bizarre just now. Is > it dangerous to him in any way? > I had just finished washing with a bar of soap and put the still-wet soap > back in its dish. Bebop heard the sound of water running and hopped up on > the vanity to explore, as he always does. (For animals that hate being wet, > they sure have an intense fascination with running water.) He bent down and > started licking the soap! I immediately gave him a light tap on the top of > the head and firmly said "NO!". He bent down and started licking the soap > again. I repeated the tap and "NO" each time – twice more – and then went > downstairs to set out his morning meal. > I’ve tried this technique of behaviour modification in the past, especially > with respect to trying to discourage him and the other cat, Samba, from > going on the kitchen table but it has never had much effect. Therefore, two > questions: > 1. Does anyone know if licking soap could cause a cat ill effects? It is > just ordinary Ivory bar soap. (Also, just out of curiousity, any idea why he > would do so? Is it my scent on the soap that he is trying to ingest? Or is > some ingredient of the soap itself appealing to him?) > 2. Can anyone think of a technique that would stop him from continuing this > behaviour? > Reinhardt > — > Pembleton (to imaginary suspect): Son, you are ignorance personified! > Homicide: Life on the Street

Response:

Yep- my cat Cocoa is also a phantom soap-licker! Though she did not go for the lavender soap I got recently ;) )   Deb. — Online portfolio http://www.scientific-art.com Croydon Cats Protection http://www.btinternet.com/~cpl.croydon/ "Even the smallest feline is a masterpiece." – Leonardo da Vinci

Response:

On the other hand, laundry detergents can cause severe harm, can’t they? It might have a lot to do with the type soap, too.  This reminds me of an anecdote in "All My Patients are Under the Bed" by Louis Camuti, DVM, where he tells of a rat that steals bars of Cashmere Bouquet soap.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My first cat, who lived to be almost 18, licked the bathroom sink soap dish > on a virtually daily basis.  (That soap dish never got caked with > residue!<g>)  She also licked suds in the dishwater on occasion.  So my > *guess* is that it isn’t a problem. > Cathy > — > "Decades gliding by like Indians, time is cheap."   Paul Simon > ("Ren