Question:
OPINION: I am not a proponent of keeping dogs in crates beyond possible exception of crate-training for young puppies only. Sure, it is said that dogs are den animals and feel at home in confined spaces, etc. However, I feel this is a misleading half-truth used to justify use of crates for convienience of people who can’t or won’t take the time to work with the dog to adapt to human living conditions. Over time the dog (and pet owner) benefit from challenge & stimulation of human’s home environment. Dog can and do find temporary substitute for a confined space in the home when they feel instinctive need for a den-like space — like under a table, or on a their own pillow in a corner. I’ve visited kennels (while looking for a new puppy) where most of the time the breeding dogs and pups are confined to rather small wire cages; the animals only get outside to a dog-run for few minutes a day — contact with people tends to be minimal. After a few years of this confined, unstimulating, life style the unfortunate dog becomes apathetic, depressed, and dull. This is an extreme example, but use of crates can be abused. I’ve even seen some one-year old dogs kept in kennel cages who appeared to be listless and depressed. Rationale for use of crates suggests an excuse for avoiding recognizing them as living individuals — soul, not mere animated machines. The reason dogs are able to live with humans instead of their own kind, is due to their wonderful flexibility/adaptability and their similar social behavior/structure to human family, etc. I think crating dogs (practice seems to be gaining popularity these days) is really a step backward in the continually evolving relationship between humans and dogs. Give dog’s adaptability more credit than this. Dogs can and should adapt to human environment(s) over time. Dogs as well as humans are both evolving over time to new environments and living conditions. I feel we don’t have to create artificial living conditions (crating) for our companion dogs.
Response:
: OPINION: : I am not a proponent of keeping dogs in crates beyond possible exception of : crate-training for young puppies only. Sure, it is said that dogs are den uh huh : animals and feel at home in confined spaces, etc. However, I feel this is : a misleading half-truth used to justify use of crates for convienience of : people who can’t or won’t take the time to work with the dog to adapt to : human living conditions. Over time the dog (and pet owner) benefit from uh huh. Sometimes, sometimes not. Depends. : challenge & stimulation of human’s home environment. Dog can and do find : temporary substitute for a confined space in the home when they feel : instinctive need for a den-like space — like under a table, or on a their : own pillow in a corner. uh huh : I’ve visited kennels (while looking for a new puppy) where most of the time : the breeding dogs and pups are confined to rather small wire cages; the : animals only get outside to a dog-run for few minutes a day — contact with : people tends to be minimal. After a few years of this confined, : unstimulating, life style the unfortunate dog becomes apathetic, depressed, : and dull. This is an extreme example, but use of crates can be abused. Yup, extreme example. Not exactly a practice welcomed by most in this group. Nah, I’ff go further its a practice roundly condemned by most in this group and I can’t think of anyone who would lable this as "crating." : I’ve even seen some one-year old dogs kept in kennel cages who appeared to : be listless and depressed. Disgusting, but exactly what does that have to do with other conditions in which a crate is used? : Rationale for use of crates suggests an excuse for avoiding recognizing : them as living individuals — soul, not mere animated machines. The reason Rationale by whom? There is not a discrete group of "crating advocates" you know. There is a spectrum of uses, and abuses, reasons and rationale. : dogs are able to live with humans instead of their own kind, is due to : their wonderful flexibility/adaptability and their similar social : behavior/structure to human family, etc. I think crating dogs (practice : seems to be gaining popularity these days) is really a step backward in the : continually evolving relationship between humans and dogs. What kind of "crating" are you speaking of? for what purposes? by whom? for how long and under what conditions? Be specific and I bet most agree. But individual circumstances vary and so does the degree of thought into the decision to use a crate. : Give dog’s adaptability more credit than this. Uh huh. I believe dogs are adaptable, what does that have to do with a decision whether crating is appropriate? : Dogs can and should adapt to human environment(s) over time. Dogs as well How much time? How much risk should the dog face during this period of adaptation? What place does balancing practicability of such things as being able to continue living in the same place, not having one dog kill another, not having the tiles on the floors and walls removed, not have the cupboard doors chewed off, not having to give up the dog because one does need to make a living, and many many factors have in all this world? : as humans are both evolving over time to new environments and living : conditions. I feel we don’t have to create artificial living conditions : (crating) for our companion dogs. How nice for you. If you don’t want to crate then don’t crate. Crating is neither good nor bad, it is in the application. Its nice that you took the time to write. It is not, however, particularly useful independent of analyzing a particular situation. Specifics such as how long the dog is crated, the purpose of the crating, whether or not someone is home at the time, the degree of experience, the age, activity level and behavioral problems of the dog, the source of the behavioral problems, the age of the dog when adopted by the person making the crating decision, the available alternatives, the risk to the dog if the alternatives fail, the risk to the continued availability of housing to the person if the alternatives fail, the practical availability of alternative housing for the human, the risk to the dog if the person decides they cannot manage the dog, the reaction of the dog to the crate, the risk to others (animals and people) sharing the same household if alternatives to crating fail, whether the crating is short term during a period of training or long terms as a matter of routine and many other factors are all involved in my evaluation as to whether a crating decision is appropriate. In the absence of an analysis of a specific application an exposition on the merits and appropriateness of crating is pure sophistry. There is plenty of opportunity in rec.pets.behavior to explore the issues in more specific and real world circumstance. Perpetual caging of dogs by for profit breeders is a practice that sheds no light whatsoever on the myrid of other reasons a person may choose to use a crate. In fact use of the term "crating" is pretty much meaningless in such a discussion until it has been defined. Surely you are not saying a veterinarian should allow patients to wander in the hosptial unconfined? In there spectrum of the decision to cage a dog there is a wide area of common ground of situations in which most caring folks in this group would agree that it is appropriate and a similiar common ground in which most would agree it is inappropriate, in the middle is another spectrum ranging from the caring dog owner who has relatively little experience with a wide range of breeds and behaviors (abohors crating), to the owner who uses a crate without much thought because it is easy (loves crating) and in between are all manner of folks who have varying degrees of acceptance about when and under what circumstances crating is an appropriate tool. A more meaningful discussion can be had by examining specific circumstances when all relevant factors including the behavior and reaction of the individual dog can be taken into account. – Diane Blackman Companion of Tanith and Oso; Nox, Yoda, Lady Greystoke and Mr. Doublestuff _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ You must speak to be heard.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->OPINION: >I am not a proponent of keeping dogs in crates beyond possible exception of >crate-training for young puppies only. Sure, it is said that dogs are den >animals and feel at home in confined spaces, etc. However, I feel this is >a misleading half-truth used to justify use of crates for convienience of >people who can’t or won’t take the time to work with the dog to adapt to >human living conditions. Over time the dog (and pet owner) benefit from >challenge & stimulation of human’s home environment. Dog can and do find >temporary substitute for a confined space in the home when they feel >instinctive need for a den-like space — like under a table, or on a their >own pillow in a corner. >I’ve visited kennels (while looking for a new puppy) where most of the time >the breeding dogs and pups are confined to rather small wire cages; the >animals only get outside to a dog-run for few minutes a day — contact with >people tends to be minimal. After a few years of this confined, >unstimulating, life style the unfortunate dog becomes apathetic, depressed, >and dull. This is an extreme example, but use of crates can be abused. >I’ve even seen some one-year old dogs kept in kennel cages who appeared to >be listless and depressed. >Rationale for use of crates suggests an excuse for avoiding recognizing >them as living individuals — soul, not mere animated machines. The reason >dogs are able to live with humans instead of their own kind, is due to >their wonderful flexibility/adaptability and their similar social >behavior/structure to human family, etc. I think crating dogs (practice >seems to be gaining popularity these days) is really a step backward in the >continually evolving relationship between humans and dogs. >Give dog’s adaptability more credit than this. >Dogs can and should adapt to human environment(s) over time. Dogs as well >as humans are both evolving over time to new environments and living >conditions. I feel we don’t have to create artificial living conditions >(crating) for our companion dogs.
Bill, It would be helpful if you would define what you mean by "crating". If you mean putting the dog in a little wire cage and leaving it for hours at a time, then most would agree with you. On the other hand, if you mean having a large den-like enclosure that can be left open or closed when the furnace repair man come to call, I for one would think you are nuts. Yes, dogs and humans should adapt to each other’s habits and eccentricities, but many human habits are dangerous to dogs. Driving cars, spraying pesticides, using electricity, using fire, etc. Other humans that are required to visit the human’s habitat may not be as accepting of the dog’s presence and habits as we are. Such as frail old people, small children, UPS delivery men, visiting clergy, etc. cannot and should not be expected to "adapt" to a large and highly energetic dog that wants to play. You can’t watch them every second and when you can’t the "crate" (we call it his apartment) is where he goes until the danger is past. That is what I call crating. He sleeps by the bed at night and during the day he goes anywhere he pleases–including his crate. Robert and Scooter(proud crate owner)
Response:
I think I am going to set myself up for some flames and pissed off people, but that’s okay – I am merely looking for advise and help, so fire away… I have two dogs, a cocker mutt and a border collie. Both dogs are male, about 9 months old. When we are home, they are free to do as they wish. When we are not home, they are both in the garage and the border collie is in his "crate". The reason the border collie hasn’t "graduated" from his "crate" is because he likes to destroy things. I know these dogs are hungry for activity and that is probably the reason he destroys stuff when he is alone. The mutt is allowed to do as he pleases in the garage because he can be trusted and has proven himself (just for the record, nothing dangerous is in dog’s reach). My concerns are that I don’t want to have to "crate" the border collie all the time, I feel bad that he can’t hang out with his "brother" and play or sleep together. On the other hand, I don’t want things destroyed. I am half tempted to build a king size dog house that will give them both plenty of room together and is virtually indestructable. Don’t worry, it would be heated and ventilated. Now I know I will get some responses saying to bring them into the house, but if the dog eats dry wall in the garage, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what will happen to my household belongings. How do I train him?? I would really love to have him in the house, but I don’t want to lose many, many things in the process. Is this a "you want the cake and eat it too" type of thing? I am looking for some help, not flames. If you can’t be constructive with your ideas without being abusive, please save both of us the time… Thank You! Jimi Misztal
Response:
It sounds like a resonable use of the crate to me. Now the trick is to see what you can do to reduce your need for it. That will take some time, probably. I agree with your goal of getting them into the house, but you are right to preserve their safety and your house in the meanwhile. How old is the Border Collie? If under two then maturity may be your answer. The other question, always with a Border Collie, is how much mental and physical exercise is the dog getting? You may already be aware of this, just hang on while I make sure everyone is on the same page . . . .The needs of a Border Collie are quite a bit more than most people are aware of. Essentially when you are dealing with Border Collie energy and intelligence your life is almost split into just two worlds. Work and playing with the dogs. That is why dedicated Border Collie folks try very hard to make sure prospective adopters know what commitment is likely. For those unfamiliar with the breed – a three mile off leash run is not even noticable to the dog. An hour of playing is just a warm up. And don’t forget that mental energy. Training, tricks, and other mental exercise is necessary and effective. So my advise is this: If the dog is under two, figure that you are progressing normally. See what you can do to increase mental and physical exercise. Try at least ten minutes of fetch in the morning, followed by ten to fifteen minutes of training (something to focus and exercise the mind, obedience, tricks etc) and a 30 minute walk. In the evening do the same thing but double the times. Split the training sessions up into short segments. If this time commitment is too much then you have some serious rethinking to do. (I’m not saying you think that, again just letting everyone know the normal time requirements for a Border Collie). Honestly this time commitment is bare minimum for a young Border Collie. Use a gradual approach to giving house privledges. First, just leave the dogs alone for a few minutes while you do yard work or whatever. I mean, like five minutes. Gradually increase the amount of time that you leave them without checking in. Do not increase the amount of time by more than 1/3 between sucesses. If you get misbehavior then reduce the time for a while – maybe five to ten instances before trying to increase it again. Try leaving them alone only when you know that they have been well exercised both physically and mentally – you are trying to create the opportunity for success. A relapse in destructiveness always reminded me when I sloughed off on the exercise. Keep both coming and going casual, but give some warning (so the dog doesn’t panic if it discovers you gone). I just walk out saying "be good" – no kisses, no petting – heck I’m going to be right back! If the dog is keying in on your "getting ready to leave" routine (picking up keys, jacket etc) then desensitize to this by going through the routine without actually leaving. If at first you don’t succeed, t t a. — Diane Blackman Proper training is not the mere imposition of rules, but the teaching of skills that allow the dog to become a fuller member of human society. http://www.dog-play.com/obedience.html
: I think I am going to set myself up for some flames and pissed off people, but that’s okay – I : am merely looking for advise and help, so fire away… : I have two dogs, a cocker mutt and a border collie. Both dogs are male, about 9 months old. : When we are home, they are free to do as they wish. When we are not home, they are both in the : garage and the border collie is in his "crate". The reason the border collie hasn’t "graduated" : from his "crate" is because he likes to destroy things. I know these dogs are hungry for : activity and that is probably the reason he destroys stuff when he is alone. The mutt is : allowed to do as he pleases in the garage because he can be trusted and has proven himself (just : for the record, nothing dangerous is in dog’s reach). : My concerns are that I don’t want to have to "crate" the border collie all the time, I feel bad : that he can’t hang out with his "brother" and play or sleep together. On the other hand, I : don’t want things destroyed. I am half tempted to build a king size dog house that will give : them both plenty of room together and is virtually indestructable. Don’t worry, it would be : heated and ventilated. Now I know I will get some responses saying to bring them into the : house, but if the dog eats dry wall in the garage, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what : will happen to my household belongings. How do I train him?? I would really love to have him : in the house, but I don’t want to lose many, many things in the process. Is this a "you want : the cake and eat it too" type of thing? : I am looking for some help, not flames. If you can’t be constructive with your ideas without : being abusive, please save both of us the time… : Thank You! : Jimi Misztal
Response:
You may not get any messages! 
Seriously, of course "we all" think the dogs should be in the house, but we also understand destruction! Is there a reason why the bc can’t be crated in the house, with the cm free-roaming? yes, the answer to many of the problems is more exercise (especially for the bc), but keep in mind this word: MOLARS. You’re actually getting off pretty easy that your cm ISN’T destructive at this age – most dogs are. After the initial cutting of adult teeth between 4 and 6 months, you get a "lull" (but the teething goes on), and then – when you thought you were safe – whammo – 8 months hits – dogs who’ve been wonderful at obedience start to test you with "oh yeah – MAKE me", and the molars are being cut. Teething is not truly over until about 18 months (sometimes longer). The age that a dog no longer needs safe confinement varies and depends on a lot of factors. I don’t expect dogs to be reliable until about 18 months, and am happy when they prove to be so at an earlier age. Be patient, continue or begin some formal training to exercise the minds and bodies of both dogs, provide plenty of safe chew toys, and consider moving the crate to the house. When your dog can be trusted in the house, free roaming, when you ARE home, with no destruction, THEN start trying no crating for small amounts of time 15 minutes, then 30, then 60, etc.. It WILL happen – you just have to give them time along with training! Janet Boss Best Friends Dog Obedience "Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
Response:
Can’t say I agree with you. My GSD goes to her crate when we are home by herself. She like being in there, and when we go away she still feels at home in her crate with us anywhere we are. I must say I’ve learned to live with the fact my couch, pillows, rugs and everything is intact when we leave her home alone because she is in her crate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > OPINION: > I am not a proponent of keeping dogs in crates beyond possible exception of > crate-training for young puppies only. Sure, it is said that dogs are den
Response:
: My concerns are that I don’t want to have to "crate" the border collie all the time, I feel bad : that he can’t hang out with his "brother" and play or sleep together. On the other hand, I : don’t want things destroyed. I am half tempted to build a king size dog house that will give : them both plenty of room together and is virtually indestructable. Don’t worry, it would be : heated and ventilated. Now I know I will get some responses saying to bring them into the : house, but if the dog eats dry wall in the garage, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what : will happen to my household belongings. How do I train him?? I would really love to have him : in the house, but I don’t want to lose many, many things in the process. Is this a "you want : the cake and eat it too" type of thing? How do you train him? You do what you’re doing. The crate will teach the BC to relax while you’re not home (although if you eventually want him in the house while you’re gone, you really should have his crate in the house now so he gets used to relaxing in the house, not just in the garage – Border Collies are typically *terrible* at generalizing from one situation to the next, more so than most other breeds). Many (many many many!) Border Collies aren’t ready for unsupervised freedom until they’re 2 years old. They’re very slow-maturing dogs. Experience BC owners will tell you a BC isn’t "mature" until it’s 3 years old, and some take longer than that! April with Levi and Caper, the Border Collie Hurricanes
Response:
writes: >Can’t say I agree with you. My GSD goes to her crate when we are home by >herself. She like being in there, and when we go away she still feels at >home in her crate with us anywhere we are. I must say I’ve learned to >live with the fact my couch, pillows, rugs and everything is intact when >we leave her home alone because she is in her crate.
Not to mention the fact that if your dogs are crated in one area when no one is home, if your house catches on fire, the fire dept. can rescue your dogs. My aunt lost her 3 dogs in a house fire. They had all been crate trained as puppies, but didn’t need to be crated any more. The fireman were able to rescue her birds who were caged in the family room area, but couldn’t save the dogs. The smoke was so thick that the fireman said they saw shadows on occasion and felt the dogs scooting by them, but couldn’t get their hands on them. All 3 were found dead of smoke inhaliation under my aunts bed….which by the way was in a room that wasn’t touched by fire. Crate your dogs when your not home….it’s safer for them. Cya, Joyce
Response:
says… – dogs who’ve been wonderful at obedience >start to test you with "oh yeah – MAKE me"
My dog is already doing this on occasion now at 6 mo’s. >Janet Boss >Best Friends Dog Obedience >"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
But my question is about leaving her out of her crate overnight which at this point is almost the only time she is in there. We have tried several times and it only lasts about 1-2 hrs because she will pace between rooms and then will either begin kissing us (my fiancee and I) while we sleep or she tries to get into bed with us! I really would like her to be able to be out of the crate overnight, but how do I get her to do this without disrupting my own sleep? Any suggestions would be very much appreciated thanks, k.g.
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