Consumer Homes.

Question:

Hello, I’m looking for some advice on how to eventually get off the grid for my power needs. Specifically, I’d like to run a couple of sump pumps during power outages. That’s for peace of mind. Eventually, I’d like to add to the system to allow running other modern day "necessities" such as a refrigerator, circulating pump for heat, A/C (or is that asking too much?), and of course a couple of computers so that I can read this newsgroup. Any suggestions on how and where to start? Cost vs. ROI? I don’t think that I have enough space for the quantity of panels and batteries vs. power output that I might require. It’s seems to me that I’d need quite a few panels and batteries to even come close to my power needs. The system doesn’t have to be solely photovoltaic. A portion of it could be solar with storage tanks and a pv circulating pump for my heating needs, which would reduce the amount of overall power required. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance to those who respond. Peter.

Response:

>Hello, >I’m looking for some advice on how to eventually get off the grid for my >power needs. Specifically, I’d like to run a couple of sump pumps during >power outages. That’s for peace of mind. Eventually, I’d like to add to the >system to allow running other modern day "necessities" such as a >refrigerator, circulating pump for heat, A/C (or is that asking too much?),

I can’t help you on heavy usage items… like AC, electric oven, or stovetops, or electric clothes dryer… but the rest is do-able… If you want to know what I did… go to :                http://geocities.com/solarliving/OfftheGrid.html Soon as I get all 12  of my panels hooked up… I think I can power a Solar type refrigerator.. as well as my computer… and with a larger battery bank… I think 12 PV’s, will be able to handle my clothes washing machine, and microwave… Part of my house is now completely off the grid… gig

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[This followup was posted to alt.energy.homepower and a copy was sent to the cited author.] Peter, I’m a long-time casual independent power researcher (with, fortunately, something of a background in electronics) who’s been calmly planning to build an off-the-grid house for some time now. The plan has changed overnight and I’m suddenly about to plunge head-first into hard-core off- the-grid living by purchasing an existing property. The grid is not even a viable financial option in this location – not that I would be comfortable with the idea of putting up a logging-truck-full of chemically-embalmed dead trees even if I could afford it. (Now that my heart’s on my sleeve…) So I’m no expert by any means, but it sounds like you’re just starting out on your journey so I might actually have a few useful observations: **  This stuff ain’t cheap. **  No, really, this stuff ain’t cheap. **  Did I mention this stuff ain’t cheap? **  At this point in time, there is no ROI issue if you’re already grid- connected. You have to do this for some reason other than financial — e.g. you want the independence, you’re opposed to the way they generate power in your corner of the world, you just think this stuff is neat and you don’t have enough expensive hobbies… any justification but financial. — Conserve or Pay Assuming you get beyond the above… **  The least expensive watt of power is the one you don’t consume. I think anyone in the n.g. would tell you that developing a conservation mentality and an appreciation for high-efficiency equipment (the load end of the equation) is going to pay off big time in the long run. If you want to maintain your current array of bad habits and crappy gear (no offence, but all us grid-power users have ‘em) get set to pay Major Huge Dough to do it off the grid. Really Big Honkin’ Megabucks. For example, most fridges are notoriously power-hungry when they’re running. Since few of them are insulated or sealed near as well as they should be, and are designed to dump all the cold air out on the floor the moment you open the door, they also run a lot. There are efficient ones, but they’re expensive and they still suck a fair bit of juice over time. Eventually manufacturers may be legislated into producing more efficient devices, but at present, since most consumers shop on the basis of price, looks and silly gizmo features rather than quality and efficiency… [Sidebar: As for me, I'm walking into an aggressively low-power scenario -- wood and propane heating and refrigeration, no running water -- so adopting the conserver mentality is not going to be a problem... I simply won't have a choice! I'll probably get one of the freezer-style fridges that's specifically made for PV systems eventually. Not too keen on propane, really.] — Your Starting Point What you’re talking about starting with is a grid-charged back-up system. That’s a swell place to start. If you make good choices at the outset, it will be easy to add independence (PV array) later on. Just shell out the bucks, hee hee… Basically you need – a bank of proper deep-cycle batteries which will be sized to give you the number of days of back-up independence you want (a fairly easy calculation once you gather the data), – a suitable battery charger with 120V input, – an inverter to turn the battery DC back into AC to run your pumps (or other AC loads later on), – some kind of digital "gas guage" that allows you to monitor the state of charge in the batteries (and other useful stuff) and – a manual or automatic transfer switch that connects the pumps to grid power or inverter output as appropriate. One of your many decisions will be what primary (DC battery) voltage to use, and you’ll want to choose wisely with future plans in mind. If I was starting from scratch I’d probably go 24V myself, but this is a complex issue better left for later on in your educational process. (I’m starting out with a 12V system like it or not.) – You might want to consider adding a gas generator to this picture. I absolutely hate them myself, but I have to admit that I own one and it looks like I’m buying another as part of this package deal. A genset makes a good combination with a battery/inverter system if your grid power fails. It might sound redundant to have both, but you can (a) run the generator for brief periods in its most efficient mode, i.e. working fairly hard to charge the batteries, then (b) not have to listen to it for a good long while as your batteries periodically run the pump(s) in relative peace and quiet. This may also allow you to downsize your battery bank somewhat, and those babies aren’t cheap. A generator alone, running intermittently with a light load, is inefficient (poor gas usage to power output ratio), and a generator that runs all the time to provide power on demand is simply ridiculous and annoying to boot. (Or satisfying to boot as long as you have steel-toed boots.) I think I’m safe in saying that buying the right inverter will give you the charger, monitor, and transfer switch functions built in, plus the ability to charge batteries from PV panels (wind etc.) down the road. Perhaps the downside to combining the functions in one piece of gear may be similar to things like stereo equipment, to wit: less choice on the individual features, harder to upgrade, and if one function blows up, you may have to send the whole thing off for repairs. But, conceiveably, it could be as simple as one do-it-all chunk of gear, some boxes and wires and fuses and switches to hook things up safely to your batteries (which of course are in a suitable enclosure vented to the outdoors etc.) and you’re in business. — This Stuff is No Joke Speaking of vented enclosures, these systems are subject to electrical codes, and for good reason. For example, this type of large-capacity battery can easily melt — if not vaporize — a crescent wrench or screwdriver if you fumble it across some terminals. When they’re charging, they off-gas hydrogen, so the sparks from the vaporizing crescent wrench can produce an explosion. (Neat, hunh? Too bad you balked at the price of safety goggles… and it’s such a long way to the shower upstairs…) Special caps and special battery designs can mitigate the gas venting issue. BTW, the exploding battery trick is also a possibility every time a couple of citizens get together to boost a non-starting car in my cold- climate area of the world. Almost nobody realizes the risks. I’d hate to see them around a bank of 1000AHr batteries. The batteries are definitely the nastiest part of the equation, and I’m sure I’m not alone in wishing for a less hazardous option in the future. Anyway, if you aren’t totally comfortable installing electrical equipment, you will want to consult with a PV-hip electrician and/or your local electrical inspector before putting anything in… especially if you have plans for a transition to being totally independent later on. Planning for future expansion at the outset will save a lot of unnecessary rework later… right down to stuff like considering where the wires are going to come into the house from the array. (Low voltage but high current, hence BIG EXPENSIVE wires best kept as short as possible.) — Resources Having ordered one as a tester and been very impressed, I bought all the back-issue CD-ROM’s produced by Home Power Magazine. I consider them an incredible value, and I can’t think of too many places you’re going to get a more complete and "home-owner-oriented" education in this area. Not just PV systems, but solar thermal water heating (which you mentioned) and loads of other really neat stuff. How to build things on the cheap, what works and what doesn’t, and a lot of enthusiasm, hands-on experience (the good, the bad and the ugly) plus pioneer spirit for inspiration. When it’s time to crawl into bed and do a little reading, I’d much rather have a magazine to thumb through than my laptop, but the CD’s are fully searchable, which more than compensates for having to read stuff on screen. It’s much easier to find what you’re looking for in the vast collection, and you only need kill trees selectively. BTW, not lost on me is the somewhat ironic possibility of being without power, and wanting to retrieve an article off one of the CD’s to help me perform a repair. This is one of the reasons I plan to have a separate small-scale DC back-up system — even if it’s only a cheap cigarette- lighter inverter to plug into my car — in order to extend my laptop running time. You might just want to get the most recent CD, or a couple of the more recent ones… the latest (#5) is just out. (There *is* no #1, BTW.) I’m glad I have them all, as I’ve already used the older ones to research some of the antique equipment I seem to be ending up with. http://www.homepower.com Best of luck, -spud says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello, > I’m looking for some advice on how to eventually get off the grid for my > power needs. Specifically, I’d like to run a couple of sump pumps during > power outages. That’s for peace of mind. Eventually, I’d like to add to the > system to allow running other modern day "necessities" such as a > refrigerator, circulating pump for heat, A/C (or is that asking too much?), > and of course a couple of computers so that I can read this newsgroup. Any > suggestions on how and where to start? Cost vs. ROI? I don’t think that I > have enough space for the quantity of panels and batteries vs. power output > that I might require. It’s seems to me that I’d need quite a few panels and > batteries to even come close to my power needs. The system doesn’t have to > be solely photovoltaic. A portion of it could be solar with storage tanks > and a pv circulating pump for my heating

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Response:

>…BIG EXPENSIVE wires best kept as short as possible.)

You don’t need BIG EXPENSIVE wires with a 4kW load and a 24V battery bank… Nick

Response:

> >…BIG EXPENSIVE wires best kept as short as possible.) > You don’t need BIG EXPENSIVE wires with a 4kW load and a 24V battery bank…

I knew, if I came flappin’ my ASCII gums here, that it would only be a matter of time before I drew some flak from the venerable Mr. Pine. He seems to keep a couple of rounds handy for any passing Daffy Duck. It almost feels like a baptism of sorts. You should see the system I’m going to be depending on, Nick. You might even be inclined to grant me some mercy — or maybe only one shot after such a wordy post *was* mercy? Yeah, on second thought, forget I said that… Cheers, Scott Willing

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it’s a bummer when he’s right LOL. — — Steve Spence Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages – http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation – http://www.webconx.com/x10 (212) 894-3704 x3154 – voicemail/fax If we don’t believe in freedom of speech for people who we disagree with, we don’t believe in it at all. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >…BIG EXPENSIVE wires best kept as short as possible.) > You don’t need BIG EXPENSIVE wires with a 4kW load and a 24V battery bank… > I knew, if I came flappin’ my ASCII gums here, that it would only be a > matter of time before I drew some flak from the venerable Mr. Pine. He > seems to keep a couple of rounds handy for any passing Daffy Duck. > It almost feels like a baptism of sorts. > You should see the system I’m going to be depending on, Nick. You might > even be inclined to grant me some mercy — or maybe only one shot after > such a wordy post *was* mercy? Yeah, on second thought, forget I said > that… > Cheers, > Scott Willing

Response:

>I knew, if I came flappin’ my ASCII gums here, that it would only be a >matter of time before I drew some flak from the venerable Mr. Pine. He >seems to keep a couple of rounds handy for any passing Daffy Duck. >It almost feels like a baptism of sorts.

<looks around, dons Nick’s robes, since Nick is nowhere in sight> You raise an interesting question. What would be the energy requirement to create a heated 6′ x 6′ x 3′ baptismal pool in Pennsylvania for a Daffy Duck, assuming the incoming water was at 42 degrees F, the surrounding temperature was 55 degrees, and the pool was surrounded by straw bales 27" in depth?  We could probably heat the water in a solar sunspace made from discarded patio doors and straw bales sealed with black polyethylene sheeting. <hummungous ivory tower calculations snipped for brevity>  Water could be heated in polycarbonate soft drink bottles linked together with used medical grade rubber tubing in a series/parallel configuration providing a low pressure closed loop powered by a solar pump (available from Jack’s Official Solar Jack Pumps at www.jackoff.com). We could safely discount the exothermal ratings of an ASHRAE standard duck, as Daffy Ducks have no internal heat generating body processes.   <doffs robes> Be very afraid.  After a while, you begin to think like Nicky.

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>  Water could be heated in polycarbonate soft drink bottles linked together with > used medical grade rubber tubing in a series/parallel configuration providing a > low pressure closed loop powered by a solar pump (available from Jack’s > Official Solar Jack Pumps at www.jackoff.com). > We could safely discount the exothermal ratings of an ASHRAE standard duck, as > Daffy Ducks have no internal heat generating body processes.

After baptism, one might have more mental power, or is that energy? Anyway, I consulted my friend, Chip Phir. He said that the soda bottle heating scheme is unnecessarily complicated, and that the water could more easily be heated with a floating burn-barrel, the bottom some odd cubic centimeters submerged of course. He’s busy writing up the calculations as I speak. Wayne

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> >…We can help Nick get back to reality on occasion (concrete >swimming pool covers?). > Funny you should mention that. We might see a prototype soon… > Concrete over Styrofoam, a combination safety cover and pool heater. > Nick

Been done. Still inventing the invented. Too little to late. George

Response:

>…the fervor he attaches to the use of found objects…

Found tires are nice, since they don’t rot, and the owner gives the finder $1-2 to take each one away. The more you can use in a structure (eg a compost furnace with 12 tires tied flat in a circle on the ground, another 12 above that, and so on up to 6′), the cheaper it is to build Some dangers of using found objects is that designs will end up inefficient, too labor-intensive or unreproducible. Fortunately, there’s no shortage of tires. Nick   Is the cube as they say "dead," or is it instead another type of   life form that with its characteristic rectilinear grid is slowly   taking over the planet like some kind of galactic impetigo? Is my   discussion already hopelessly compromised, lying as it does on   rectangular sheets of paper? I can not answer these questions…   These are instructions on how to almost break out of prison. The   prison is the paucity of shapes to which we have in the past confined   ourselves because of our technology-industry-education-economy…   Make the faces stiff enough so that you can jump up and down anywhere   on any one of them without it giving…   Car tops are a good building material. They are cheap, strong, have   an excellent paint job and are available almost everywhere… Most tops   taken off a car with an axe will be between 45 and 52 inches wide and   50 to 70 inches long; a station wagon will give as much as 8 feet and   a van or mini-bus even more. An experienced man with a good axe can easily   chop 5 or 6 tops an hour, and when the cars are packed close together   so you don’t have to touch ground you can go faster than this… Power   saws with carborundum blades, electric unishears, electric nibblers,   acetylene torches, pneumatic chisels, all of these will take tops off.   The advantage of using an axe is that it’s cheap and after some practice   it can become a real pleasure to chop the top out of a car.   Chop along the sides first then the front and back. Throw open the   doors–one foot on an open door and one foot on the car is a good   stance for chopping the sides…   Recently Mandel Bell and I rented an air compressor, marked off the   shapes we needed right on the cars and then cut them out easily with   a pneumatic chisel. Cutting the trimmed shapes right out of the junk   yard eliminated at least two thirds of the work in the previous routine.   It also meant we could haul twice as many tops in a load…   At Drop City we couldn’t get the second-to-last pentagon in. We   took a day off. During this day a very strong chinook wind blew.   The continual working of the building in this strong wind must have   cooked the whole structure because the next morning the pentagon   dropped right into place…       From Steve Baer’s 40 page Dome Cookbook, 5th edition, 1996,       available from Trial and Error/P O Box 1327/Corrales, NM 87048.

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>> Concrete over Styrofoam, a combination safety cover and pool heater. >Been done…

Pray tell us more. Nick

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<ROFLOL> My humble contribution pales in the face of your clearly superior wizardry, sir. <bowing low> I suspect the poor fellow whose question started this thread has now unsubscribed from the n.g., pitched his PC in the trash for good measure, bolted the door, and gone back to watching his grid-powered TV. Ah, the satisfaction of public service… -spud says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I knew, if I came flappin’ my ASCII gums here, that it would only be a >matter of time before I drew some flak from the venerable Mr. Pine. He >seems to keep a couple of rounds handy for any passing Daffy Duck. >It almost feels like a baptism of sorts. > <looks around, dons Nick’s robes, since Nick is nowhere in sight> > You raise an interesting question. > What would be the energy requirement to create a heated 6′ x 6′ x 3′ baptismal > pool in Pennsylvania for a Daffy Duck, assuming the incoming water was at 42 > degrees F, the surrounding temperature was 55 degrees, and the pool was > surrounded by straw bales 27" in depth?  We could probably heat the water in a > solar sunspace made from discarded patio doors and straw bales sealed with > black polyethylene sheeting. > <hummungous ivory tower calculations snipped for brevity> >  Water could be heated in polycarbonate soft drink bottles linked together with > used medical grade rubber tubing in a series/parallel configuration providing a > low pressure closed loop powered by a solar pump (available from Jack’s > Official Solar Jack Pumps at www.jackoff.com). > We could safely discount the exothermal ratings of an ASHRAE standard duck, as > Daffy Ducks have no internal heat generating body processes.   > <doffs robes> > Be very afraid.  After a while, you begin to think like Nicky.

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> We are now thinking about how to insulate this 22×45′ in-ground pool, > concerned that 1′ of concrete and 8′ of water (about 660 pounds per > square foot or 4.6 psi) might crush 25 psi Styrofoam underneath. > It also comes in 40, 60 and 100 psi…

You won’t have any problems with ‘crushing’ the 25 psi Styrofoam.  You will only be exerting about 5 psi on it.  You definitely want to use SM or something similar that doesn’t mind being underground not the plain, white bead board. I used to work at a Structural Engineering firm where we had a lot of success with a concrete/styrofoam hybrid panel system that we used for everything from houses to warehouses to shopping centres.  Something along those lines might be a fairly simple way to put a pool together instead of pouring it in place or using a Gunite process. In another earlier life I became a certified pool technician and can say that I’ve never come across the need for a foot of concrete in a pool bottom or wall – 8 inches is more the norm. > How can we make a thermal break where the coping touches the walls > so the coping doesn’t act like a large heat fin to conduct away all > the pool’s heat in January?

The thermal break should be between the coping and the deck instead of the coping and the wall so that you don’t have any leakage problems or differential movement.  A break of half inch asphalt fibre board between the coping and the surrounding concrete deck if there is one will break the thermal bridge.  You have to decide whether the potential for movement between the deck and the coping is worth the energy saving in your climate. > Who makes those in-ground pools with liners(?) inside bolt-together > Styrofoam wall panels like Superior basement foundation walls? > Nick

Email me if you would like any more details. John

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