Gas Furnace | Consumer Homes.

Question:

When a local couple considered a "solar addition," it turned out the first and second floor levels of the south wall were mostly shaded by evergreens, including trees on the neighbors’s property, but the roof had lots of sun. It’s about 20′x40′ with a 4′ high ridge running east and west. I suggested removing the south roof and extending the north roof up to the south beyond the ridge at the same angle to make a shed attic with an 8′x40′ transparent south wall. Soldier’s Grove solar attics used blowers to move hot air down to the building, but water is simpler and uses less power and makes heat storage easier in a slow draindown system with an unpressurized heat storage tank on the ground. The house has a gas furnace. NREL says 1000 Btu/ft^2 falls on a south wall on an average 30.4 F January day with a 37.9 max in Phila, so a $320 8′x40′ Dynaglas wall would collect 900×8x40 = 288K Btu on an average day, or more, with a reflective deck to the south and/ or a reflective overhang (which could also prevent overheating in summertime.) With 120 F water in an 800 Btu/h-F auto radiator and fan near the peak and insulation under the roof, it might look like this, viewed in a fixed font: — 1/320 — | 288K/6h x = 48K Btu/h | w w 1/800 w | | | 120 F Opening the circuit at x makes the solar (Thevenin) equivalent temperature 34+48K/320 = 184 F, like this: 1/320 184 F —www— | x | w w 1/800 w | | | 120 F … which might collect (184-120)/(1/320+1/800) = 14.6K Btu/h or 87.8K Btu/day, enough to make lots of hot water for showers (with a $60 300′x1" PE pressurized pipe coil in the heat storage tank) and provide some space heat. The attic temp might be 120+14.6K/800 = 138 F. We might also circulate some attic air through a filter and the 2nd floor of the house. This seems efficient, even if the upstairs needs little heat. A dark mesh near the glazing (eg black aluminum window screen) with 70 F house air flowing through it could greatly lower the heat loss by convection through the glazing, as in a Scandinavian "breathing wall." With 70 F air near the glazing, we might capture up to 288K-6h(70-34)320ft^2/R1 = 218.9K Btu on an average January day. Polycarbonate blocks longwave IR, but there would still be radiation loss from the mesh to the glazing. http://www.cibse.org/pdfs/8cimbabi.pdf has an equation for the dynamic metric U-value of a breathing wall, as corrected: Ud = VRhoaCa/(e^(VRhoaCaRs)-1) W/m^2K, where V is the air velocity in meters per second, Rhoa is air density, 1.2 kg/m^3, Ca is the air’s specific heat, 1000 J/(kg-K), and Rs is the wall’s static thermal resistance in m^2-K/W. Using V = 1/3600 (1 meter per HOUR , and Rs = 5.7 m^2K/W (a US R32 wall), Ud = 0.058 W/m^2, like a US R98 wall. A more typical V = 10 meters per hour makes Ud = 1.7×10^-8 W/m^2K, like a US wall with an R-value of 334 million If 1 meter per hour (0.0055 fpm) flows through 320 ft^2 of mesh, the total is 17.5 cfm… 100 lfm up into a 1′ wide x 2×4 cavity 8′ tall with a 0.29 ft^2 cross section (29 cfm per linear foot of wall) would not increase the glazing loss much over still air. In that case, the total airflow would be 320×29 = 9300 cfm. So it looks like a wide range of airflow is possible, depending on how much heat the house needs. With no mesh and 2 glazing layers, eg sliding glass doors, we might have this: 2/320 Tsun —www— Tsun = 34+259K/6/(2/320) = 304 F. | x | w w 1/800 w | | | 120 F …. which might collect (304-120)/(2/320+1/800) = 24.5K Btu/h or 147.2K Btu/day with a 120+24.5K/800 = 151 F attic temp. (We datalogged 157 F in December of 1995 in the sunspace of our phone-booth-size experiment at Ursinus college.) We might start by drilling holes from the inside of the attic with a long bit near the ridge next to the present rafters, then Sawzall a rafter-size piece of roof from the outside and slip a 12′ 2×6 into each hole parallel to the rafter and bolt the bottom foot to the rafter, then build the new roof, then remove the old one (or not) and build the wall… I bought a used 1984 Dodge Omni automobile radiator for $35. We might attach a $50 Lasko 2470 cfm 90 watt window fan to it… 800/5 = 160′ of fin-tube pipe with no fan would cost about $320. I like that better, since it is simpler and uses less electrical energy and the fan may not last very long over 100 F. (My 640 ft^2 Dynaglas solar attic has a $433 2764 cfm 275 W Swedish Multifan with special ball bearings and lubricant rated for 311 F.) Nick

Response:

Good thinking! Tom

Response:

When a local couple considered a "solar addition," it turned out the first and second floor levels of the south wall were mostly shaded by evergreens, including trees on the neighbors’s property, but the roof had lots of sun. It’s about 20′x40′, with a 4′ high ridge running east and west. I suggested removing the south roof and extending the north roof up to the south beyond the ridge at the same angle to make a shed attic with an 8′x40′ transparent south wall. Soldier’s Grove solar attics used blowers to move hot air down to the building, but water is simpler and pumps use less power and make heat storage easier in a slow draindown system with an unpressurized heat storage tank on the ground. The house has a gas furnace. NREL says 1000 Btu/ft^2 falls on a south wall on an average 30.4 F January day with a 37.9 max in Phila, so a $320 ($0.02 per peak watt 8′x40′ Dynaglas corrugated polycarbonate wall would collect 900×8x40 = 288K Btu on an average day, or more, with a reflective deck to the south and/or a reflective overhang (which could also prevent overheating in summertime.) With 120 F water in an 800 Btu/h-F auto radiator and fan near the peak and insulation under the roof, it might look like this, viewed in a fixed font: — 1/320 — | 288K/6h x = 48K Btu/h | w w 1/800 w | | | 120 F Opening the circuit at x makes the solar (Thevenin) equivalent temperature 34+48K/320 = 184 F, like this: 1/320 184 F —www— | x | w w 1/800 w | | | 120 F … which might collect (184-120)/(1/320+1/800) = 14.6K Btu/h or 87.8K Btu/day, enough to make lots of hot water for showers (with a $60 300′x1" PE pressurized pipe coil in the heat storage tank) and provide some space heat. The attic temp might be 120+14.6K/800 = 138 F. We might also circulate some attic air through a filter and the 2nd floor. The present furnace might spread the heat around the house. This seems efficient, even if the upstairs needs little heat. A dark mesh near the glazing (eg black aluminum window screen) with 70 F house air flowing through it could greatly lower the heat loss by convection through the glazing, as in a Scandinavian "breathing wall." With 70 F air near the glazing, we might capture up to 288K-6h(70-34)320ft^2/R1 = 218.9K Btu on an average January day. In full sun, with 225×340 = 76500 Btu/h entering and (70-34)320 = 11520 leaving the attic, one attic temp upper limit would be 120+(76500-11520)/800 = 201 F. Polycarbonate blocks longwave IR, but there would still be radiation loss from the mesh to the glazing. http://www.cibse.org/pdfs/8cimbabi.pdf has an equation for the dynamic metric U-value of a breathing wall, as corrected: Ud = VRhoaCa/(e^(VRhoaCaRs)-1) W/m^2K, where V is the air velocity in meters per second, Rhoa is air density, 1.2 kg/m^3, Ca is the air’s specific heat, 1000 J/(kg-K), and Rs is the wall’s static thermal resistance in m^2-K/W. Using V = 1/3600 (1 meter per HOUR , and Rs = 5.7 m^2K/W (a US R32 wall), Ud = 0.058 W/m^2, like a US R98 wall. A more typical V = 10 meters per hour makes Ud = 1.7×10^-8 W/m^2K, like a US wall with an R-value of 334 million If 1 meter per hour (0.0055 fpm) flows through 320 ft^2 of mesh, the total is 17.5 cfm… 100 lfm up into a 1′ of 2×4 cavity 8′ tall with a 0.29 ft^2 cross section (29 cfm per linear foot of wall) would not increase the glazing loss much over still air. In that case, the total airflow would be 40×29 = 1160 cfm. With no water flow, we’d have something like this: Ta = 70+I/1160 = 95 F. | 1/320 | 1/1160 184 F —www——-www— 70 F I –> I = (184-70)/(1/320+1/1160) = 28.6K Btu/h. It looks like a wide range of airflow is possible, depending on how much heat the house needs. With no mesh and 2 glazing layers, eg sliding glass doors, we might have this: 2/320 Tsun —www— Tsun = 34+259K/6h/(2/320) = 304 F. | x | w w 1/800 w | | | 120 F …. which might collect (304-120)/(2/320+1/800) = 24.5K Btu/h or 147.2K Btu/day with a 120+24.5K/800 = 151 F attic temp. (We datalogged 157 F in December of 1995 in the sunspace of our phone-booth-sized experiment at Ursinus college.) We might start by drilling holes from the inside of the attic with a long bit near the ridge next to the present rafters, then Sawzall a rafter-size piece of roof from the outside and slip a 12′ 2×6 into each hole parallel to the north rafter and bolt the bottom foot to the rafter, then build the new roof, then remove the old one (or not) and build the wall… I bought a used 1984 Dodge Omni automobile radiator for $35. We might attach a $50 Lasko 2470 cfm 90 watt window fan to it… 800/5Btu/h-F-ft = 160′ of fin-tube pipe with no fan would cost about $320. That’s simpler, it uses less electrical energy, and the fan may not last very long at 151 F. (My 640 ft^2 Dynaglas solar attic has a $433 2764 cfm 275 W Swedish Multifan with special ball bearings and lubricant rated for 311 F.) Nick

Response:

No it’s not. See the problem? — Cheers, Bev Is it sick to think that ‘Commando’ is a really fun movie?

Response:

>No it’s not.

The solar attic is not improved? >See the problem?

No. Nick

Response:

>>No it’s not. > The solar attic is not improved?

You have no idea what I’m talking about, do you? >See the problem? > No.

Then you weren’t paying attention. All you need to do is scroll up a few messages and it will all be clear. Or not. — Cheers, Bev "What’s truly sad is that your vote counts the same as mine." – S. Brown

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> No it’s not. > The solar attic is not improved? > You have no idea what I’m talking about, do you? >> See the problem? > No. > Then you weren’t paying attention. All you need to do is scroll up a > few messages and it will all be clear.

I’m reading this from alt.solar.thermal, and I have no idea what you are talking about. What I do know is that not including *any* of the thread (see your original post in this thread) is abysmal usenet practice. Why Nick even responded is beyond me. Cheers, Jeff – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Or not.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> No it’s not. >> The solar attic is not improved? > You have no idea what I’m talking about, do you? >>> See the problem? >> No. > Then you weren’t paying attention. All you need to do is scroll up a > few messages and it will all be clear. > I’m reading this from alt.solar.thermal, and I have no idea what you are > talking about. > What I do know is that not including *any* of the thread (see your > original post in this thread) is abysmal usenet practice. Why Nick even > responded is beyond me. > Cheers, > Jeff > Or not.

Congratulations, Jeff, at least ONE person got my point. For the rest — Losers who quote NOTHING of the post to which they’re replying have nothing at all to say worth reading because they aren’t smart enough to let the readers know what they’re talking about. Alternate: They’re so enamored of seeing their deathless prose in print they don’t care that nobody knows what they’re talking about. — Cheers, Bev "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn’t suck is probably

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Heat engine

Question:

>> Ok, I lights, TV, water pumping, refrigeration propane for now soon PV, > outside lights, security all mostly done with solar power. Soon I will > have my solar hot water system done. NOW, I want air conditioning… > Use Dauphin Island Alabama as the location…

NREL data indicate July is the worst-case month for AC in Mobile, when 1770 Btu/ft^2 hits the ground on an average 82.3 F day with a 73.2 F min and humidity ratio w = 0.0169 pounds of water per pound of dry air. Very humid… >Giovoni, B. >Passive & lowenergy cooling of buildings. >1994 Van Nostrand Reinhold

The techniques in that book won’t help much. Baruch Givoni’s 1998 Climate Consderations in Building and Urban Design has more on design for hot and humid climates, but that book won’t help much either, compared to serious air conditioning. >Or if you prefer I can scan the article I have on subsidence towers for >passive cooling and email it to you.

That won’t help, in humid climates. Offgridman might enjoy ceiling fans and an airtight house with a LiCl solar still on the roof, which might also heat water for showers. I could help, if he wants to get into that. We’ve proposed another all-day workshop on solar heating and natural cooling for the 2005 ISES/ASES conference in Orlando in August. It would be nice to have a working example of this new liquid desiccant technique. Nick

Response:

Hi ya Nick, I have ceiling fans, three in the cabin now. One in the bedroom and two in the living area. You are dead on that evaporative cooling is virtually nonfunctional here due to the humid climate. I would like to learn more of your LiCl solar still on the roof idea. Sounds interesting. Liquid desiccant cooling hmmmm. Very interesting idea. Cabin is 24ftX24ft R 19 ceiling with a air channel in between the rafters of 1inch in depth below the metal roofing between the 24 inch on center ceiling joists. This channel funnels air from the 24inch overhanging eaves to the ridge vent. The cabin has running full length down the inside continous ridge vent that allows hot air to vent freely up through the roof and out under the ridge. The ceilings are cathedral and the peak is 17.5 ft and the exterior side walls are 10 ft tall. The building gable end faces SSW with two 8×6 glass doors and one 3×5 window. All insulated glass. there are two windows on the east wall 2×5 and one 2×2 window on the north wall. Now, where can I learn about the system you described. Thanks Offgridman

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Ok, I lights, TV, water pumping, refrigeration propane for now soon PV, >> outside lights, security all mostly done with solar power. Soon I will >> have my solar hot water system done. NOW, I want air conditioning… >> Use Dauphin Island Alabama as the location… > NREL data indicate July is the worst-case month for AC in Mobile, when > 1770 Btu/ft^2 hits the ground on an average 82.3 F day with a 73.2 F min > and humidity ratio w = 0.0169 pounds of water per pound of dry air. > Very humid… >Giovoni, B. >Passive & lowenergy cooling of buildings. >1994 Van Nostrand Reinhold > The techniques in that book won’t help much. Baruch Givoni’s 1998 Climate > Consderations in Building and Urban Design has more on design for hot and > humid climates, but that book won’t help much either, compared to serious > air conditioning. >Or if you prefer I can scan the article I have on subsidence towers for >passive cooling and email it to you. > That won’t help, in humid climates. Offgridman might enjoy ceiling fans > and an airtight house with a LiCl solar still on the roof, which might > also heat water for showers. I could help, if he wants to get into that. > We’ve proposed another all-day workshop on solar heating and natural > cooling for the 2005 ISES/ASES conference in Orlando in August. It would > be nice to have a working example of this new liquid desiccant technique. > Nick

One does wonder, is this information anything like that for bilge pumps?

Response:

>Hi ya Nick,

Hi ya Offgridman, >I have ceiling fans, three in the cabin now. One in the bedroom and two >in the living area…

Good. You might add occupancy sensors. >…I would like to learn more of your LiCl solar still on the roof idea.

The basic idea is to distill water out of a LiCl solution during the day and let it absorb water vapor from house air at night. This could dehumidify an airtight house, with some potential for cooling as water evaporates indoors. >Cabin is 24ftX24ft R 19 ceiling with a air channel in between the >rafters of 1inch in depth below the metal roofing between the 24 inch >on center ceiling joists. This channel funnels air from the 24inch >overhanging eaves to the ridge vent. The cabin has running full length >down the inside continous ridge vent that allows hot air to vent freely >up through the roof and out under the ridge.

So that keeps the roof cooler, without exchanging indoor and outdoor air? What color is the roof? >The ceilings are cathedral and the peak is 17.5 ft and the exterior >side walls are 10 ft tall. The building gable end faces SSW with two >8×6 glass doors and one 3×5 window. All insulated glass. there are two >windows on the east wall 2×5 and one 2×2 window on the north wall.

With overhangs or other shading? How much insulation in the walls? How airtight is your cabin? I’d blower-door test it before LiCling. Nick

Response:

Walls are R13 plus 5/8 plywood R14 maybe total or so. Roof is silver galvanized tin. large overhangs east and west walls. plan on installing roof over deck to shade south windows later, right now I have vertical blinds. and reflective tint on doors and windows. Cabin has sill plate caulked to sub floor and is tighter than most average homes. Patio Doors are lousy if I need a tight structure to do this. Offgridman

Response:

>Walls are R13 plus 5/8 plywood R14 maybe total or so. Roof is silver >galvanized tin. large overhangs east and west walls.

So it runs north and south, with a atan((17.5-10)/12) = 32 degree pitch? >plan on installing roof over deck to shade south windows later…

The LiCl still might be on top of that flattish roof. >Cabin has sill plate caulked to sub floor and is tighter than most >average homes. Patio Doors are lousy if I need a tight structure to do this.

You do, for dehumidification. Say 30 cfm max. Insulation is less important. NREL says the average humidity ratio wo = 0.0154 pounds of water per pound of dry air in Mobile in June, on an average 80.4 F day with an average 70.7 daily min. If the average outdoor temp is 75 F for 12 hours on a June night and Pso = e^(17.863-9621/(460+75)) = 0.887 "Hg and Pao = 29.921/(1+0.62198/w) = 0.723 "Hg, the average RH would be about 100Pao/Pso = 82%. If the average indoor temp is 80 F with an average 50% indoor RH, Psi = 1.047 and Pai = 0.5Psi = 0.524 and wi = 0.62198/(29.921/Pai-1) = 0.0111. With 30 cfm of air leakage, you might collect N = 12hx60m/hx30cfmx0.075lb/ft^3(wo-wi) = 7 pints in 12 hours from a dehumidifer… Nick

Response:

@ 142 grains. Designing using averages gets one in trouble all the time. Good for calculating energy consumption over a period of time, useless for designing a working system. Humidity design levels are 24 to 32 per cent higher than using 0.0154. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Walls are R13 plus 5/8 plywood R14 maybe total or so. Roof is silver >galvanized tin. large overhangs east and west walls. > So it runs north and south, with a atan((17.5-10)/12) = 32 degree pitch? >plan on installing roof over deck to shade south windows later… > The LiCl still might be on top of that flattish roof. >Cabin has sill plate caulked to sub floor and is tighter than most >average homes. Patio Doors are lousy if I need a tight structure to do this. > You do, for dehumidification. Say 30 cfm max. Insulation is less important. > NREL says the average humidity ratio wo = 0.0154 pounds of water per pound > of dry air in Mobile in June, on an average 80.4 F day with an average 70.7 > daily min. If the average outdoor temp is 75 F for 12 hours on a June night > and Pso = e^(17.863-9621/(460+75)) = 0.887 "Hg and Pao =

29.921/(1+0.62198/w) > = 0.723 "Hg, the average RH would be about 100Pao/Pso = 82%. > If the average indoor temp is 80 F with an average 50% indoor RH, Psi = 1.047 > and Pai = 0.5Psi = 0.524 and wi = 0.62198/(29.921/Pai-1) = 0.0111. With 30 cfm > of air leakage, you might collect N =

12hx60m/hx30cfmx0.075lb/ft^3(wo-wi) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> = 7 pints in 12 hours from a dehumidifer… > Nick

Response:

>Designing using averages gets one in trouble all the time…

ASHRAE percentiles are averages To use the method below to estimate air infiltration, replace the average numbers with actual measurements. >Good for calculating energy consumption over a period of time, useless for >designing a working system.

Many HVAC criminals ignore energy consumption… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Cabin has sill plate caulked to sub floor and is tighter than most > >average homes. Patio Doors are lousy if I need a tight structure to > >do this. > You do, for dehumidification. Say 30 cfm max. Insulation is less important. > NREL says the average humidity ratio wo = 0.0154 pounds of water per > pound of dry air in Mobile in June, on an average 80.4 F day with an > average 70.7 daily min. If the average outdoor temp is 75 F for 12 hours > on a June night and Pso = e^(17.863-9621/(460+75)) = 0.887 "Hg and Pao = > 29.921/(1+0.62198/w) = 0.723 "Hg, the average RH would be about 100Pao/Pso > = 82%. > If the average indoor temp is 80 F with an average 50% indoor RH, Psi > = 1.047 and Pai = 0.5Psi = 0.524 and wi = 0.62198/(29.921/Pai-1) = 0.0111. > With 30 cfm of air leakage, you might collect N = 12×60x30×0.075(wo-wi) > = 7 pints in 12 hours from a dehumidifer…

Nick

Response:

Systems designed on averages are condusive to growing mushrooms

Response:

> Designing using averages gets one in trouble all the time. Good for > calculating energy consumption over a period of time, useless for > designing a working system. > Humidity design levels are 24 to 32 per cent higher than using 0.0154.

I’m confused… maybe I am just not thinking in the same terms or using the same measurements or something…. My design parameters for Mobile and are almost identical to Hattiesburg, MS area where I am…. this what I use for design criteria Cooling 95 degrees ODB 77 degrees OWB Heating 28 degrees ODB To *maintain* 72 degrees inside At the OD design temps, the system should be running continuously to maintain the ID temps or am I missing something???

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 130 83F > Designing using averages gets one in trouble all the time. Good for > calculating energy consumption over a period of time, useless for > designing a working system. > Humidity design levels are 24 to 32 per cent higher than using 0.0154. > I’m confused… maybe I am just not thinking in the same terms or using the > same measurements or something…. > My design parameters for Mobile and are almost identical to Hattiesburg, MS > area where I am…. this what I use for design criteria > Cooling > 95 degrees ODB > 77 degrees OWB > Heating > 28 degrees ODB > To *maintain* 72 degrees inside > At the OD design temps, the system should be running continuously to > maintain the ID temps > or am I missing something???

What happens Steve, is you use a dry bulb temperature to design the air conditioning for, and the wet bulb temperature they give you coincides as what is typical when it is that hot out. Sometimes it can be much more humid when it is not so hot out. The 95/77 you mention for Hattisburg is about 111 grains of humidity or 0.0159 lb W/lb da similar to the number Nick was using. On commercial buildings when everything was designed for these DB/WB temperatures, especially when there was a lot of ventilation air, what was happening that at times where it was not as hot out, but more humid, the systems MAY not remove enough humidity. grains or 84F db 79 wb. A 2.5% design dry bulb there maybe 95F and the coinciding wet buld is 76F, about 105 grains. An air conditioning system can work great when it is 95 degrees out, but sometimes when it is not so hot but there is more moisture in the air, the systems will not be able to dehumidify enough. Using Jackson for an example, the outdoor temp can be 11 degrees below the design temperature the system was designed around, and therefore the run time will be reduced and it will not be removing as much moisture as it is not running as long. In addition to reduced run time, there is 35% more moisture in the outside air than perhaps the system was designed to deal with.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > 130 > 83F > > Designing using averages gets one in trouble all the time. Good for > > calculating energy consumption over a period of time, useless for > > designing a working system. > > Humidity design levels are 24 to 32 per cent higher than using > 0.0154. > I’m confused… maybe I am just not thinking in the same terms or > using the > same measurements or something…. > My design parameters for Mobile and are almost identical to > Hattiesburg, MS > area where I am…. this what I use for design criteria > Cooling > 95 degrees ODB > 77 degrees OWB > Heating > 28 degrees ODB > To *maintain* 72 degrees inside > At the OD design temps, the system should be running continuously to > maintain the ID temps > or am I missing something??? > What happens Steve, is you use a dry bulb temperature to design the air > conditioning for, and the wet bulb temperature they give you coincides > as what is typical when it is that hot out. > Sometimes it can be much more humid when it is not so hot out. > The 95/77 you mention for Hattisburg is about 111 grains of humidity or > 0.0159 lb W/lb da similar to the number Nick was using. > On commercial buildings when everything was designed for these DB/WB > temperatures, especially when there was a lot of ventilation air, what > was happening that at times where it was not as hot out, but more > humid, the systems MAY not remove enough humidity. > grains or 84F db 79 wb. A 2.5% design dry bulb there maybe 95F and the > coinciding wet buld is 76F, about 105 grains. > An air conditioning system can work great when it is 95 degrees out, > but sometimes when it is not so hot but there is more moisture in the > air, the systems will not be able to dehumidify enough. > Using Jackson for an example, the outdoor temp can be 11 degrees below > the design temperature the system was designed around, and therefore > the run time will be reduced and it will not be removing as much > moisture as it is not running as long. In addition to reduced run time, > there is 35% more moisture in the outside air than perhaps the system > was designed to deal with.

THis is why a correctly sized and installed system is so important. When in doubt, if the load calc calls for a number of BTU cooling, its best to actually look at the specs of the equipment componant combination and the actual BTU capability of the equipment. When in doubt, I personally will recommend a little bit smaller system maybe a 2 1/2 ton instead of a 3 ton, if for nothing else but better humidity control. This also reinforces the need for expantion valves and variable speed blowers currently only found on the super high efficiency (high dollar) equipment.

Response:

I think that "smaller than calculated size is being lost for better logical thinking these days. Although this is a good idea it ends up costing more to run the system and less comfortable by the residents. Sure the humidity may end up being lower but the residence may be overheated upstairs where the sleeping areas are until 3:00 AM in the morning. This overworks the compressor and lowers the comfort level or the occupants, not allowing them to live the way they desire. A little education and experience goes a long way with your customer base also. In a hot/cold seasonal climate many people like to open their windows when the air conditioner is not required. Suddenly one day the home becomes overheated and before they realize it becomes almost 30C in the home. The windows get shut and the A/C system goes on. The humidity is already in the furniture and walls and the undersized system you have installed now takes 3-4 days to lower the humidity and the temperature. A customer tossing a turning in a 28C home in the middle of the night because it is too hot is not a happy customer and does not "spread the good word" about your installation. I hear this complaint all the time in my area. The humidity is the problem with a smaller unit. Telling the customer to turn his unit on in May and off in December may do the trick for many people but if you ever have guests over the human heat at the party makes the guests ask "Can you turn the A/C on?" … another happy customer in front of all his/her friends the system allows the home to go up to 28C. Some installation! The old paradigm will die hard but people are beginning to learn not to go with the cheapest bidder because he undersized the compressor and A coils. The lower humidity comfort idea is just a myth and not very acceptable to most people after the bill is paid. It usually doesn’t provide comfort in the long run. This may not apply to regions with more arid climates that don’t endure 80-100% RH.

<bottom posting mess deleted> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> THis is why a correctly sized and installed system is so important. When in > doubt, if the load calc calls for a number of BTU cooling, its best to > actually look at the specs of the equipment componant combination and the > actual BTU capability of the equipment. When in doubt, I personally will > recommend a little bit smaller system maybe a 2 1/2 ton instead of a 3 ton, > if for nothing else but better humidity control. This also reinforces the > need for expantion valves and variable speed blowers currently only found on > the super high efficiency (high dollar) equipment.

Response:

>I think that "smaller than calculated size is being lost for better logical > thinking these days. Although this is a good idea it ends up costing more > to > run the system and less comfortable by the residents. Sure the humidity > may > end up being lower but the residence may be overheated upstairs where the > sleeping areas are until 3:00 AM in the morning. This overworks the > compressor and lowers the comfort level or the occupants, not allowing > them > to live the way they desire.

thats assuming multiple floors, single system with no zoning…here the lions share of homes are single story on a concrete slab with the furnace or air handler in a hall closet, and ductwork in the attic. > A little education and experience goes a long way with your customer base > also. In a hot/cold seasonal climate many people like to open their > windows > when the air conditioner is not required. Suddenly one day the home > becomes > overheated and before they realize it becomes almost 30C in the home. The > windows get shut and the A/C system goes on. The humidity is already in > the > furniture and walls and the undersized system you have installed now takes > 3-4 days to lower the humidity and the temperature. A customer tossing a > turning in a 28C home in the middle of the night because it is too hot is > not a happy customer and does not "spread the good word" about your > installation. I hear this complaint all the time in my area. The humidity > is > the problem with a smaller unit.

There are only a couple of weeks here when folks can open their windows….just about a week before Halloween, and then for about a week just before Easter. Otherwise its either too hot, too humid, or too cold. We do have 4 seasons here….December, January, February, and summer > Telling the customer to turn his unit on in May and off in December may do > the trick for many people but if you ever have guests over the human heat > at > the party makes the guests ask "Can you turn the A/C on?" … another > happy > customer in front of all his/her friends the system allows the home to go > up > to 28C. > Some installation!

You never heard of auto change-over programmable thermostats?? > The old paradigm will die hard but people are beginning to learn not to go > with the cheapest bidder because he undersized the compressor and A coils.

Not in this neck of the woods… the cheapest bidder just throws in whatever size that was already there or the customer wants a bigger unit so he gets it instead of correcting the problems with the complete system. Not unusual to find where a hack has put a 5 ton package unit with flex duct running under a house outside of the city limits where there is no license requirement or code enforcement. I also run into a lot of "Its not cooling, it needs more FREON". I recover almost twice as much refrigerent from new customers overcharged systems, than what I sell. > The lower humidity comfort idea is just a myth and not very acceptable to > most people after the bill is paid. It usually doesn’t provide comfort in > the long run.

So explain how cold and clammy equates to comfort?? > This may not apply to regions with more arid climates that don’t endure > 80-100% RH.

BTW… what are *your* design parameters for you to corretly size a system?? Do you do a complete room-by-room heat load/loss analysis before you size and install a heating and cooling system?? What type of systems do you normally install?? zoned?? multi stage?? gas?? electric?? heat pumps?? ductwork??

Response:

There are some serious differences between the Gulf Coast and Canada Bob. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I think that "smaller than calculated size is being lost for better logical > thinking these days. Although this is a good idea it ends up costing more to > run the system and less comfortable by the residents. Sure the humidity may > end up being lower but the residence may be overheated upstairs where the > sleeping areas are until 3:00 AM in the morning. This overworks the > compressor and lowers the comfort level or the occupants, not allowing them > to live the way they desire. > A little education and experience goes a long way with your customer base > also. In a hot/cold seasonal climate many people like to open their windows > when the air conditioner is not required. Suddenly one day the home becomes > overheated and before they realize it becomes almost 30C in the home. The > windows get shut and the A/C system goes on. The humidity is already in the > furniture and walls and the undersized system you have installed now takes > 3-4 days to lower the humidity and the temperature. A customer tossing a > turning in a 28C home in the middle of the night because it is too hot is > not a happy customer and does not "spread the good word" about your > installation. I hear this complaint all the time in my area. The humidity is > the problem with a smaller unit. > Telling the customer to turn his unit on in May and off in December may do > the trick for many people but if you ever have guests over the human heat at > the party makes the guests ask "Can you turn the A/C on?" … another happy > customer in front of all his/her friends the system allows the home to go up > to 28C. > Some installation! > The old paradigm will die hard but people are beginning to learn not to go > with the cheapest bidder because he undersized the compressor and A coils. > The lower humidity comfort idea is just a myth and not very acceptable to > most people after the bill is paid. It usually doesn’t provide comfort in > the long run. > This may not apply to regions with more arid climates that don’t endure > 80-100% RH. > <bottom posting mess deleted> > THis is why a correctly sized and installed system is so important. When > in > doubt, if the load calc calls for a number of BTU cooling, its best to > actually look at the specs of the equipment componant combination and the > actual BTU capability of the equipment. When in doubt, I personally will > recommend a little bit smaller system maybe a 2 1/2 ton instead of a 3 > ton, > if for nothing else but better humidity control. This also reinforces the > need for expantion valves and variable speed blowers currently only found > on > the super high efficiency (high dollar) equipment.

Response:

I have only been involved mostly with residential systems. I rescued one home with a 60,000BTU furnace and a 2 ton unit installed. The owner complained of the original installer coming out many times and taking stupid air movement readings for registers. Then telling him they had to get blinds for all the windows and to expect the upstairs to be 5-10C hotter than the downstairs where the 6 foot long pipe runs over the central furnace blasting cold air directly at the thermostat would shut the system down early. This system never stopped going full blast until 3-4 am every day. The unit cut in at about 11 am and never cycled until shut down again. This is way 99% of the installers do it here. They take a bunch of measurements of windows and ask about insulation and then look at the BTU of the furnace. The measurements all go inthe garbage because they don’t know what to do with them. There are too many factors involved anyway. The problem with this home was it had 3 floors exposed due south and had an amazing amount of heat gain. 60KBTU for a 2500 sq. ft. home in Canada is pretty small. So the guy puts in the 2 ton unit, based on the furnace BTU, and it doesn’t work. We got him to rip it out and give the money back all except about $150 for the wiring, breaker and unit service disconnect (required here). Then we install a 2.5 ton unit with a 3 ton A coil (changing the orifice) and reposition the A coil the correct way (had it in sideways making massive turbulence). Customer is happy and it works great the way they want it. Uses the setback thermostat to drop a degree at 3 am to circulate the air. Single zone, no fancies needed. The hockey rink in the basement is open from 10 am – 10 pm each day though…LOL Hard to avoid that one with single zoners. Oh yeah! The owner ended up about $200 cheaper for the larger unit when it was all done. As far as humidity goes if you oversize the unit it can become a problem sure but I have seen heat pump units that are double the A/C requirements and the problem isn’t that great. Mind you the heat pump is undersized and the backup heat needs to run regularly. Last thing I heard on these was systems to adjust the BTU capacity season to season were being tried. Most gave up on them after they all became maintenance nightmares that would cost them more than a whole new gas furnace and weren’t cost effective when maintenance was considered. Furnace size is definitely a good start but other factors have to be considered. Some are only customer reports but the measurement system and windows is only a joke anyway. You can’t tell how well the insulation in the walls was packed or carefully placed. Should I measure size and distance of all the trees and pit them against average wind velocity measurements too?…LOL Not for the $200 one makes on an installation. I don’t like working for minimum wage. Homes here run from insulbrick to R48 in the ceilings depending on when they were built. There is a lot of leeway in the art anyway.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I think that "smaller than calculated size is being lost for better logical > thinking these days. Although this is a good idea it ends up costing more > to > run the system and less comfortable by the residents. Sure the humidity > may > end up being lower but the residence may be overheated upstairs where the > sleeping areas are until 3:00 AM in the morning. This overworks the > compressor and lowers the comfort level or the occupants, not allowing > them > to live the way they desire. > thats assuming multiple floors, single system with no zoning…here the > lions share of homes are single story on a concrete slab with the furnace or > air handler in a hall closet, and ductwork in the attic. > A little education and experience goes a long way with your customer base > also. In a hot/cold seasonal climate many people like to open their > windows > when the air conditioner is not required. Suddenly one day the home > becomes > overheated and before they realize it becomes almost 30C in the home. The > windows get shut and the A/C system goes on. The humidity is already in > the > furniture and walls and the undersized system you have installed now takes > 3-4 days to lower the humidity and the temperature. A customer tossing a > turning in a 28C home in the middle of the night because it is too hot is > not a happy customer and does not "spread the good word" about your > installation. I hear this complaint all the time in my area. The humidity > is > the problem with a smaller unit. > There are only a couple of weeks here when folks can open their > windows….just about a week before Halloween, and then for about a week > just before Easter. Otherwise its either too hot, too humid, or too cold. We > do have 4 seasons here….December, January, February, and summer > Telling the customer to turn his unit on in May and off in December may do > the trick for many people but if you ever have guests over the human heat > at > the party makes the guests ask "Can you turn the A/C on?" … another > happy > customer in front of all his/her friends the system allows the home to go > up > to 28C. > Some installation! > You never heard of auto change-over programmable thermostats?? > The old paradigm will die hard but people are beginning to learn not to go > with the cheapest bidder because he undersized the compressor and A coils. > Not in this neck of the woods… the cheapest bidder just throws in whatever > size that was already there or the customer wants a bigger unit so he gets > it instead of correcting the problems with the complete system. Not unusual > to find where a hack has put a 5 ton package unit with flex duct running > under a house outside of the city limits where there is no license > requirement or code enforcement. I also run into a lot of "Its not cooling, > it needs more FREON". I recover almost twice as much refrigerent from new > customers overcharged systems, than what I sell. > The lower humidity comfort idea is just a myth and not very acceptable to > most people after the bill is paid. It usually doesn’t provide comfort in > the long run. > So explain how cold and clammy equates to comfort?? > This may not apply to regions with more arid climates that don’t endure > 80-100% RH. > BTW… what are *your* design parameters for you to corretly size a system?? > Do you do a complete room-by-room heat load/loss analysis before you size > and install a heating and cooling system?? What type of systems do you > normally install?? zoned?? multi stage?? gas?? electric?? heat pumps?? > ductwork??

Response:

I am sure their are. Read my last statement.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There are some serious differences between the Gulf Coast and Canada > Bob. > This may not apply to regions with more arid climates that don’t > endure > 80-100% RH.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have only been involved mostly with residential systems. > I rescued one home with a 60,000BTU furnace and a 2 ton unit installed. > The > owner complained of the original installer coming out many times and > taking > stupid air movement readings for registers. Then telling him they had to > get > blinds for all the windows and to expect the upstairs to be 5-10C hotter > than the downstairs where the 6 foot long pipe runs over the central > furnace > blasting cold air directly at the thermostat would shut the system down > early. This system never stopped going full blast until 3-4 am every day. > The unit cut in at about 11 am and never cycled until shut down again. > This is way 99% of the installers do it here. They take a bunch of > measurements of windows and ask about insulation and then look at the BTU > of > the furnace. The measurements all go inthe garbage because they don’t know > what to do with them. There are too many factors involved anyway. The > problem with this home was it had 3 floors exposed due south and had an > amazing amount of heat gain. 60KBTU for a 2500 sq. ft. home in Canada is > pretty small. So the guy puts in the 2 ton unit, based on the furnace BTU, > and it doesn’t work. > We got him to rip it out and give the money back all except about $150 for > the wiring, breaker and unit service disconnect (required here). Then we > install a 2.5 ton unit with a 3 ton A coil (changing the orifice) and > reposition the A coil the correct way (had it in sideways making massive > turbulence). Customer is happy and it works great the way they want it. > Uses > the setback thermostat to drop a degree at 3 am to circulate the air. > Single > zone, no fancies needed. The hockey rink in the basement is open from 10 > am – 10 pm each day though…LOL Hard to avoid that one with single > zoners. > Oh yeah! The owner ended up about $200 cheaper for the larger unit when it > was all done. > As far as humidity goes if you oversize the unit it can become a problem > sure but I have seen heat pump units that are double the A/C requirements > and the problem isn’t that great. Mind you the heat pump is undersized and > the backup heat needs to run regularly. Last thing I heard on these was > systems to adjust the BTU capacity season to season were being tried. Most > gave up on them after they all became maintenance nightmares that would > cost > them more than a whole new gas furnace and weren’t cost effective when > maintenance was considered. > Furnace size is definitely a good start but other factors have to be > considered. Some are only customer reports but the measurement system and > windows is only a joke anyway. You can’t tell how well the insulation in > the > walls was packed or carefully placed. Should I measure size and distance > of > all the trees and pit them against average wind velocity measurements > too?…LOL Not for the $200 one makes on an installation. I don’t like > working for minimum wage. Homes here run from insulbrick to R48 in the > ceilings depending on when they were built. There is a lot of leeway in > the > art anyway.

Let me get this right… you do a complete system installation and only make $200?? ROFLMAO!!! No wonder you can’t do it right… you can’t afford to, you’ll go broke.

Response:

Did you have a point ot make or are you still just being an asshole? The going rate for a 2.5 ton residential installation runs about $1600. There ain’t much left after installing all the parts and pieces. How much do you make on a $1600 installation after the wiring, breakers, disconnect safety device, compressor, brackets, lags, furnace hardware, copper and plastic tubing, solder, refrigerant pressure testing, recapture of excess, system testing, drive time, billing and initial consultation? Ohh… You just walk away from the real jobs when it gets competitive? Let’s hear ya’ talk mouthpiece!

Response:

Say there Scooter, you never did answer my questions……. How do *you* correctly size a heating and cooling system for a home?? What design parameters do you use for you to correctly size a system?? Do you do a complete room-by-room heat load/loss analysis before you size and install a heating and cooling system?? What type of systems do you normally install?? zoned?? multi stage?? gas?? oil?? electric?? heat pumps?? BTW…I did read you last statement and didn’t see where you had answered any of my questions….in fact, your last statement only generated more questions, but I will refrain from asking those until you have answered the original questions.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I am sure their are. Read my last statement. > There are some serious differences between the Gulf Coast and Canada > Bob. > > This may not apply to regions with more arid climates that don’t > endure > > 80-100% RH.

Response:

You obviously didn’t read my answer anyway. Not bad trolling. Almost had me for more than 5 answers.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Say there Scooter, you never did answer my questions……. > How do *you* correctly size a heating and cooling system for a home?? What > design parameters do you use for you to correctly size a system?? Do you do > a complete room-by-room heat load/loss analysis before you size and install > a heating and cooling system?? What type of systems do you normally > install?? zoned?? multi stage?? gas?? oil?? electric?? heat pumps?? > BTW…I did read you last statement and didn’t see where you had answered > any of my questions….in fact, your last statement only generated more > questions, but I will refrain from asking those until you have answered the > original questions. >I am sure their are. Read my last statement. >> There are some serious differences between the Gulf Coast and Canada >> Bob. >> > This may not apply to regions with more arid climates that don’t >> endure >> > 80-100% RH.

Response:

> Did you have a point ot make or are you still just being an asshole? > The going rate for a 2.5 ton residential installation runs about $1600. > There ain’t much left after installing all the parts and pieces.

Thats just about right for installing a 2.5 ton 10 SEER a/c condenser by itself. > How much do you make on a $1600 installation after the wiring, breakers, > disconnect safety device, compressor, brackets, lags, furnace hardware, > copper and plastic tubing, solder, refrigerant pressure testing, recapture > of excess, system testing, drive time, billing and initial consultation?

Complete install (change-out only) 2.5 ton resi with a gas furnace….you want model numbers too?? Depending on the actual equipment being installed, ranges from $5400 for a 10 SEER a/c with 50,000btu 80%AFUE gas furnace to $6600 for 13.5 SEER a/c with 50,000btu 92% AFUE 2 stage gas furnace. Any ductwork and any upgrades/updates to meet current electrical, or mechanical codes are extra. > Ohh… You just walk away from the real jobs when it gets competitive?

Not hardly Scooter, my customers don’t mind paying for a *competent*, licensed, insured, professionaly trained, HVAC technician to do a top quality installation, of top quality equipment, and give them top quality service after the sale. You see there is a major difference between being competitive and being the lowest bidder. I chose the former. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Let’s hear ya’ talk mouthpiece!

Response:

Gymbo I read your post and I have installed ground source heat pumps in Northern Canada that are sized close to the heating load. As an air conditioner they are easily twice the required capacity as you make reference to. High humidity and mold is a winter problem in Canada, where as it is a cooling problem on the gulf coast. These over sized heat pumps in Canada face a short cooling season and the humidity in the outside air is around 50% lower in terms of moisture held per unit dry air compared to of what systems along the gulf coast, in Florida or down on the Islands face. In addition the Canadians homes are more sealed, and when doors/windows are closed because the AC is running, the infiltration rates are much lower than in the US. Therfore not only is the outside air much less humid in Canada, the infiltration rate is also much lower, therefore the latent load that a Canadian system has to deal with is much lower than the gulf coast. I never observed a high humidity problem with oversized residential air conditioning in Canada, and again I am not talking about areas like Windsor either. The outdoor ambients in Canada are also lower, and an outdoor design temperature would typically be maybe 10F or 5.6C warmer than the inside design temperature. On the gulf coast, the outdoor design temps are going to be 20F or 11.1C warmer than the inside design temperature. The peak humidity will occur on a day that is only at half of the design temperature difference. The have cooled down to hot Canadian ambients and have sky high latent loads with higher infiltration rates. I have many customers here, down in the Islands, who on their old systems would be setting thermostats down to 72F in cooling, just to try and feel comfortable. Their new systems properly dehumidify, and they are now comfortable at 78F. You don’t buy the humidity comfort angle in the cooling season as you have never had to really deal with it. So there are differences between Canada and the gulf coast that you are not grasping. I have gone from the Great White North to being hundreds of miles south of Mr. Noon Air. I actually met Mr. Noon in person and can tell you he is a professional and does what works in his area.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Cabin has sill plate caulked to sub floor and is tighter than most >average homes. Patio Doors are lousy if I need a tight structure to do this. >You do, for dehumidification. Say 30 cfm max. Insulation is less important. >NREL says the average humidity ratio wo = 0.0154 pounds of water per pound >of dry air in Mobile in June, on an average 80.4 F day with an average 70.7 >daily min. If the average outdoor temp To=75 F for 12 hours on a June night >and Pso = e^(17.863-9621/(460+75)) = 0.887 "Hg and Pao = 29.921/(1+0.62198/w) >= 0.723 "Hg, the average RH would be RHo=100Pao/Pso = 82%. >If the average indoor temp Ti=80 F with average RHi = 50% indoors, Psi = 1.047 >and Pai = 0.5Psi = 0.524 and wi = 0.62198/(29.921/Pai-1) = 0.0111. With 30 cfm >of air leakage, you might collect N = 12hx60m/hx30cfmx0.075lb/ft^3(wo-wi) >= 7 pints in 12 hours from a dehumidifer…

So, want to measure the air leakage this way? Less leakage helps with AC, no matter what the system. You might 1. Run a dehumidifier indoors for a few days with the cabin windows and doors closed, to remove moisture stored in indoor surfaces. 2. Empty it, and measure the indoor and outdoor temps and RHs over 12 hours. 3. Measure how much condensation it collects. 4. Calculate the cabin air leakage as above: Pao = RHo/100e^(17.863-9621/(460+To)) = 0.887 "Hg. wo = 0.62198/(29.921/Pao-1) = 0.0154. Pai = RHi/100e^(17.863-9621/(460+Ti)) = 0.524 "Hg. wi = 0.62198/(29.921/Pai-1) = 0.0111. cfm = 0.0185N/(wo-wi) = 30. 5. If cfm > 30, find and fix water leaks, caulk, airseal, and so on… Nick

Response:

You wouldn’t land one job in this area at those prices. I’ll bet those are US dollars too?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Did you have a point ot make or are you still just being an asshole? > The going rate for a 2.5 ton residential installation runs about $1600. > There ain’t much left after installing all the parts and pieces. > Thats just about right for installing a 2.5 ton 10 SEER a/c condenser by > itself. > How much do you make on a $1600 installation after the wiring, breakers, > disconnect safety device, compressor, brackets, lags, furnace hardware, > copper and plastic tubing, solder, refrigerant pressure testing, recapture > of excess, system testing, drive time, billing and initial consultation? > Complete install (change-out only) 2.5 ton resi with a gas furnace….you > want model numbers too?? > Depending on the actual equipment being installed, ranges from $5400 for a > 10 SEER a/c with 50,000btu 80%AFUE gas furnace to $6600 for 13.5 SEER a/c > with 50,000btu 92% AFUE 2 stage gas furnace. > Any ductwork and any upgrades/updates to meet current electrical, or > mechanical codes are extra. > Ohh… You just walk away from the real jobs when it gets competitive? > Not hardly Scooter, my customers don’t mind paying for a *competent*, > licensed, insured, professionaly trained, HVAC technician to do a top > quality installation, of top quality equipment, and give them top quality > service after the sale. > You see there is a major difference between being competitive and being the > lowest bidder. I chose the former. > Let’s hear ya’ talk mouthpiece!

Response:

Posted in Gas Furnace | No Comments » |

Insulationg Paint.

Question:

I have seen several different paint and/or paint additives that are supposed to either reflect heat back out and/or further retard its entry into building space. Does anyone here have any experience with this. I want to paint the inside of my house to add insulation value to the walls (this should cut heating and cooling costs.) If this stuff works I can think of several other uses as well (painting hot water storage vessels, duct work, etc) [Do you know of another NG or web resource that could shed light on this...?] Thanks John

Response:

I would personally be suspect of such claims since loses through walls are via conduction and convection mostly, and only slightly by radiation. Perhaps there would be some impact in keeping the walls from gaining or loosing temperature from or into a room but I would believe that convection and conduction would far outway gains and losses by radiation. It is hard to believe that a few microns of any kind of paint of any kind of material could have a lot of influence on either of these. If a thin film of anything could have such an impact on these two major sources, then by all means, give me a 4" layer of it between the walls. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have seen several different paint and/or paint additives that are >supposed to either reflect heat back out and/or further retard its >entry into building space. Does anyone here have any experience with >this. I want to paint the inside of my house to add insulation value >to the walls (this should cut heating and cooling costs.) If this >stuff works I can think of several other uses as well (painting hot >water storage vessels, duct work, etc) >[Do you know of another NG or web resource that could shed light on >this...?] >Thanks >John

Response:

I tried it and did not notice a difference in a room. I put it on an area of my heating duct, uninsulated metal , I could not feel a difference, and I tested several areas. Id say If it worked it would be standard on products that would benefit. It says Radiant Barrier , I did not test with an Infrared Camera. But I dought its true effectiveness.

Response:

>I tried it and did not notice a difference in a room. I put it on an >area of my heating duct, uninsulated metal , I could not feel a >difference, and I tested several areas. Id say If it worked it would be >standard on products that would benefit. It says Radiant Barrier , I >did not test with an Infrared Camera. But I dought its true >effectiveness.

That pretty well confirms my thoughts.. I would run away from the product and consider insulation that has been proven to work.

Response:

John, Here is an additive that I came across that can be added to any paint, interior or exterior. I don’t have any experience with it, but the page has a lot of information and is quite interesting: http://www.hytechsales.com/insulating_paint_additives.html Cheers, Terry in the MO Ozarks

Response:

Hmm, about 30 dollars for a gallon of paint, with no indication of R value or U factor. Interesting, but I’ll pass for now.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> John, > Here is an additive that I came across that can be added to > any paint, interior or exterior. I don’t have any > experience with it, but the page has a lot of information > and is quite interesting: > http://www.hytechsales.com/insulating_paint_additives.html > Cheers, Terry in the MO Ozarks

Response:

Try using Nansulate as a keyword, or go to: http://www.industrial-nanotech.com/NansulateGP.htm Yours, TDP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I have seen several different paint and/or paint additives that are > supposed to either reflect heat back out and/or further retard its > entry into building space. Does anyone here have any experience with > this. I want to paint the inside of my house to add insulation value > to the walls (this should cut heating and cooling costs.) If this > stuff works I can think of several other uses as well (painting hot > water storage vessels, duct work, etc) > [Do you know of another NG or web resource that could shed light on > this...?] > Thanks > John

Response:

The additives are all made by one Co. Dow I Believe, a Ceramic hollow small ball. Companies spring up and tote it as the " New Thing" when actually its been around at least 15 yrs. Now one Co sells it that I know of, Its cheap glass, If it really worked it would have hundreds- thousands of uses where thermal conductivity is a problem. And thats about Everywhere insulation is needed and heat is an issue. They don’t give independant lab tests to verify . It has some benefit but how much I don’t know. Air is a good insulator but your thickness is negligible. They do say radiant barrier, which I don’t know how to verify or compare. I thought of building a 3 ft box, 2 identical . But my house isn’t even painted yet or clean It would be intesting to find the truth on it

Response:

Hitech is the same Dow or DuPont product I bought called Insulad. Where is the independant testing Co. And R value. Well the low ratings wopuld be their embarasment and undoing

Response:

Thanks guys for all the responses. It is the lack of independent test data that sort fo left the bad tast in my mouth too. I am wondering if I want to know the answer bad enought that I’ll buy a gallon of the stuff (around $60) to experiment with. I know that Sherwin-Williams can get the Radiance brand although the web site for Radiance lists Kelly-Moore as the distributer. Sherwin-Williams now sells thier own brand of attic radiant barrier (although I’m looking for interior wall paint.) Also, if anyone can get the technical data for radiance to display, please let me know. (I emailed and even called the Radiance company several weeks ago and they still have not fixed it…) http://www.radiancecomfort.com/ The Nansulate seems to be the only one that gives any numbers on what to expect for the interior. It claims 30

Posted in Gas Furnace | No Comments » |

first stage grid resistors

Question:

OK, you’re fed up with my quest to tame the hiss on the GA20-RVT Normal channel. We’re pretty darn sure it’s in the first stage. Mind you, I’m not complaining. Several folks here tried very hard to help me and I’m grateful. So here’s a simple amp question or two, no heavy lifting required. On V1 (6EU7), the signal path looks like this: 2 jacks each into a 68K resistor > signal wire to eyelet board > cap > short wire to grid pin. There is also a 470K resistor, one leg is ground, the other is the same eyelet where the cap and short wire to the grid pin meet. I re-read Randall Aiken’s paper on Grid Resistors http://www.aikenamps.com (under advanced technical papers) and he says to put the grid stopper resistors on the tube pin — the ones in series with the grid — this would be the 68K’s on the jacks? That pesky coupling cap is in the way or I could just put the 68K resistor at the other end of the signal wire or maybe run two signal wires to two 68K’s that rest on the tube pin. Am I on to something? Should I think about moving that cap directly onto the tube pin along with the 470K bleed resistor and bypass that eyelet all together? That eliminates the short wire to the grid pin (recently replaced). Any thoughts would be appreciated. I think I don’t get it. The Reverb channel is wired up the same way as the Normal channel and doesn’t hiss. Phil Still trying

Response:

Did you try replacing the cathode resistors? Aiken is right about the grid resistors but it doesn’t sound like the grid resistor hook up is producing the hiss especially if the other channel isn’t hissing. If the resistors are carbon comp or carbon film, which I’m guessing they are, one of them is probably causing the problem. Try replacing them one at a time. My first guess would be the cathode resistor. It could also be oxidation on the tube socket. Hope this is helpful.. Tubeguru

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> OK, you’re fed up with my quest to tame the hiss on the GA20-RVT Normal > channel. We’re pretty darn sure it’s in the first stage. Mind you, I’m > not complaining. Several folks here tried very hard to help me and I’m > grateful. So here’s a simple amp question or two, no heavy lifting > required. > On V1 (6EU7), the signal path looks like this: 2 jacks each into a 68K > resistor > signal wire to eyelet board > cap > short wire to grid pin. > There is also a 470K resistor, one leg is ground, the other is the same > eyelet where the cap and short wire to the grid pin meet. > I re-read Randall Aiken’s paper on Grid Resistors http://www.aikenamps.com > (under advanced technical papers) and he says to put the grid stopper > resistors on the tube pin — the ones in series with the grid — this would > be the 68K’s on the jacks? That pesky coupling cap is in the way or I could > just put the 68K resistor at the other end of the signal wire or maybe run > two signal wires to two 68K’s that rest on the tube pin. > Am I on to something? > Should I think about moving that cap directly onto the tube pin along with > the 470K bleed resistor and bypass that eyelet all together? That > eliminates the short wire to the grid pin (recently replaced). > Any thoughts would be appreciated. I think I don’t get it. > The Reverb channel is wired up the same way as the Normal channel and > doesn’t hiss. > Phil > Still trying

Response:

> Did you try replacing the cathode resistors? Aiken is right about the grid > resistors but it doesn’t sound like the grid resistor hook up is producing > the hiss especially if the other channel isn’t hissing. If the resistors are > carbon comp or carbon film, which I’m guessing they are, one of them is > probably causing the problem. Try replacing them one at a time. My first > guess would be the cathode resistor. It could also be oxidation on the tube > socket. Hope this is helpful.. > Tubeguru

Aha! Something new! I’ve shotgunned nearly the whole section and been through a lot of tests which produced no results. This includes all the old CC resistors, some of which I put back Cathode resistor and bypass cap were replaced. "…oxidation on the tube socket." This is a new theory. This tube socket is brown :~{ so I can’t see anything. How does one identify and deal with oxidation? Is this inside on the metal contacts? What’s the best way to clean them? Remember, the other channel (with its own pair of jacks + 68K resistors, etc) runs into the other triode in this tube with no problem. Could it be only one side? Does this mean I need to replace the socket? Been thinking that’s got to be it. Ugh ;~{. Please don’t suggest flip flopping (by rewiring) the triodes. If I desolder everything, I might as well replace the socket. I put several tubes in this hole with no change, so it’s not the tube. Phil – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> OK, you’re fed up with my quest to tame the hiss on the GA20-RVT Normal > channel. We’re pretty darn sure it’s in the first stage. Mind you, I’m > not complaining. Several folks here tried very hard to help me and I’m > grateful. So here’s a simple amp question or two, no heavy lifting > required. > On V1 (6EU7), the signal path looks like this: 2 jacks each into a 68K > resistor > signal wire to eyelet board > cap > short wire to grid pin. > There is also a 470K resistor, one leg is ground, the other is the same > eyelet where the cap and short wire to the grid pin meet. > I re-read Randall Aiken’s paper on Grid Resistors

http://www.aikenamps.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> (under advanced technical papers) and he says to put the grid stopper > resistors on the tube pin — the ones in series with the grid — this > would > be the 68K’s on the jacks? That pesky coupling cap is in the way or I > could > just put the 68K resistor at the other end of the signal wire or maybe run > two signal wires to two 68K’s that rest on the tube pin. > Am I on to something? > Should I think about moving that cap directly onto the tube pin along with > the 470K bleed resistor and bypass that eyelet all together? That > eliminates the short wire to the grid pin (recently replaced). > Any thoughts would be appreciated. I think I don’t get it. > The Reverb channel is wired up the same way as the Normal channel and > doesn’t hiss. > Phil > Still trying

Response:

The hiss is "hum", grid resistors are not the cause.

Response:

> The hiss is "hum", grid resistors are not the cause.

Doug, Hmmmm….it sounds like hiss, but I think maybe you are on to something. I’ll treat the patient for hum again next time I drop the chassis. I decided I’d had enough for a while and put it back together tonight. Thanks for the hint. Phil

Response:

Aha! You have no cathode resistor on this one right? That’s a grid leak bias circuit. Except that ought to be a 4.7M resistor, bot 470K. Which is it? I reworked a couple of old Gibsons like this. I switched to Cathode bias, and they were much, much quieter. Check out the GA-6 pages on http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Amps/ . … > The Reverb channel is wired up the same way as the Normal channel and > doesn’t hiss.

I have no idea why some do and some don’t. Also, I could have sworn I suggested cleaning tube pins and sockets, yet another post suggests you haven’t tried that. Get some Caig ProGold 5 for this. It’s well worth the cost. -Miles —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

> On V1 (6EU7), the signal path looks like this: 2 jacks each into a 68K > resistor > signal wire to eyelet board > cap > short wire to grid pin. > There is also a 470K resistor, one leg is ground, the other is the same > eyelet where the cap and short wire to the grid pin meet. > Aha! You have no cathode resistor on this > one right? That’s a grid leak bias circuit. > Except that ought to be a 4.7M resistor, bot > 470K. Which is it?

Reviewing a GA-20 and GA-30 RVT schematics, both inputs run 68K resistors into a .0047 cap followed by a 470K resistor to ground then on to the grid of V1a. And both have cathode resistors on the V1a stage. I don’t understand the .0047 input ‘coupling’ capacitor. It’s un-necessary and I’d remove it.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > On V1 (6EU7), the signal path looks like this: 2 jacks each into a 68K > > resistor > signal wire to eyelet board > cap > short wire to grid pin. > > There is also a 470K resistor, one leg is ground, the other is the same > > eyelet where the cap and short wire to the grid pin meet. > Aha! You have no cathode resistor on this > one right? That’s a grid leak bias circuit. > Except that ought to be a 4.7M resistor, bot > 470K. Which is it? >Reviewing a GA-20 and GA-30 RVT schematics, both inputs run 68K resistors >into a .0047 cap followed by a 470K resistor to ground then on to the grid >of V1a. And both have cathode resistors on the V1a stage. I don’t understand >the .0047 input ‘coupling’ capacitor. It’s un-necessary and I’d remove it.

It’s my understanding [1] that this cap will protect upline equipment [2] in the event of a plate to grid short in that tube. [1] someone *please* correct me if I’m wrong [2] i.e. the user -Dave

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On V1 (6EU7), the signal path looks like this: 2 jacks each into a 68K > resistor > signal wire to eyelet board > cap > short wire to grid pin. > There is also a 470K resistor, one leg is ground, the other is the same > eyelet where the cap and short wire to the grid pin meet. > Aha! You have no cathode resistor on this > one right? That’s a grid leak bias circuit. > Except that ought to be a 4.7M resistor, bot > 470K. Which is it? > I reworked a couple of old Gibsons like this. > I switched to Cathode bias, and they were > much, much quieter. Check out the GA-6 > pages on http://www.rru.com/~meo/Guitar/Amps/ . > … > The Reverb channel is wired up the same way as the Normal channel and > doesn’t hiss. > I have no idea why some do and some don’t. > Also, I could have sworn I suggested cleaning > tube pins and sockets, yet another post suggests > you haven’t tried that. Get some Caig ProGold 5 > for this. It’s well worth the cost. > -Miles > —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Miles, V1 does indeed have a cathode resistor (1.5K) and a bypass cap on each section (10mf on the normal side and 20 mf on the reverb side — schematic calls for 5mf, but I didn’t like the voicing it gave — too midrangey; btw, the bypass cap was simply missing on the reverb side). The resistor between the grid and ground — the schematic calls for a 470K and that’s what’s in there. Even changed it out with no result. The first section is a lot like "Steve’s Amp" in your pics of the GA-6. What wisdom is keeping me from moving it off the eyelet board directly to the grid pin? I haven’t got the experience to know. Is it likely no change will occur? OK, I know you don’t have a crystal ball. I think I bought the wrong spray at the store. I got Caig DeOxit D5 (lube and cleaner — good for pots?). I guess I gotta go back for the other stuff :~{. You did say this before. I think I was listening with one ear ;~}

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > On V1 (6EU7), the signal path looks like this: 2 jacks each into a 68K >> > resistor > signal wire to eyelet board > cap > short wire to grid pin. >> > There is also a 470K resistor, one leg is ground, the other is the same >> > eyelet where the cap and short wire to the grid pin meet. >> Aha! You have no cathode resistor on this >> one right? That’s a grid leak bias circuit. >> Except that ought to be a 4.7M resistor, bot >> 470K. Which is it? >Reviewing a GA-20 and GA-30 RVT schematics, both inputs run 68K resistors >into a .0047 cap followed by a 470K resistor to ground then on to the grid >of V1a. And both have cathode resistors on the V1a stage. I don’t understand >the .0047 input ‘coupling’ capacitor. It’s un-necessary and I’d remove it. > It’s my understanding [1] that this cap will protect upline equipment > [2] in the event of a plate to grid short in that tube.

It will block DC voltage between the amp and upline equipment, but it is also a tone-blocker. I looked through many schematics and could find no others utilizing such a cap except Gibsons of your general type: www.schematicheaven.com Fender, Marshall, and all other makes I am aware of (but I’m no expert) have never used such a cap in the input signal path. At 1000 Hz, that cap represents a very large Xc. Jumper across it (short it out) and see what difference it makes…and please let me know. I’m curious about this…again, I’ve never come across such a design on a guitar amp (but again, I’m no expert in amps either)

Response:

> It will block DC voltage between the amp and upline equipment, but it is > also a tone-blocker.

That’s how I always felt about that tiny interstage coupling cap they put in Marshall amps. ;-) jk

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> > On V1 (6EU7), the signal path looks like this: 2 jacks each into a > 68K > >> > resistor > signal wire to eyelet board > cap > short wire to grid > pin. > >> > There is also a 470K resistor, one leg is ground, the other is the > same > >> > eyelet where the cap and short wire to the grid pin meet. > >> Aha! You have no cathode resistor on this > >> one right? That’s a grid leak bias circuit. > >> Except that ought to be a 4.7M resistor, bot > >> 470K. Which is it? > >Reviewing a GA-20 and GA-30 RVT schematics, both inputs run 68K resistors > >into a .0047 cap followed by a 470K resistor to ground then on to the > grid > >of V1a. And both have cathode resistors on the V1a stage. I don’t > understand > >the .0047 input ‘coupling’ capacitor. It’s un-necessary and I’d remove > it. > It’s my understanding [1] that this cap will protect upline equipment > [2] in the event of a plate to grid short in that tube. > It will block DC voltage between the amp and upline equipment, but it is > also a tone-blocker. I looked through many schematics and could find no > others utilizing such a cap except Gibsons of your general type: > www.schematicheaven.com > Fender, Marshall, and all other makes I am aware of (but I’m no expert) have > never used such a cap in the input signal path. At 1000 Hz, that cap > represents a very large Xc. Jumper across it (short it out) and see what > difference it makes…and please let me know. I’m curious about > this…again, I’ve never come across such a design on a guitar amp (but > again, I’m no expert in amps either)

Really, tone is OK on this amp. Face it, if I wanted a tone monster, I’d up the ante and get something else. For the bucks, I’m good with it. It’s a "practice" amp. I’m gonna leave it (the cap) in. I swapped it with a new cap of a different type same value. No change. Phil

Response:

I didn’t have a schem handy before, so I guessed. I have seen very few amps with caps like that. What happens if you bypass the cap, since the reverb doesn’t have it? … > The first section is a lot like "Steve’s Amp" in your pics of the GA-6. > What wisdom is keeping me from moving it off the eyelet board directly to > the grid pin?

None. > I haven’t got the experience to know. Is it likely no > change > will occur? OK, I know you don’t have a crystal ball.

No, but I do have a spider ball! It’s silver, with black eyes and legs. It goes in the car with me. Anyway, I doubt this will help, but you can try, since (so far) nothing else has helped. If you hadn’t replaced everything and reflowed the joints, I’d say the main way this might work was if you had a bad solder joint. > I think I bought the wrong spray at the store. I got Caig DeOxit D5 (lube > and cleaner — good for pots?). I guess I gotta go back for the other > stuff

Yes, this is the best thing around for pots, but it’s not recommended for tube pins. I forget why. > :~{. You did say this before. I think I was listening with one ear ;~}

In one ear and out the nostril = that’s why it’s all green. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

> V1 does indeed have a cathode resistor (1.5K) and a bypass cap on each > section (10mf on the normal side and 20 mf on the reverb side — schematic > calls for 5mf, but I didn’t like the voicing it gave — too midrangey; > btw, the bypass cap was simply missing on the reverb side). > I didn’t have a schem handy before, so I guessed. > I have seen very few amps with caps like that. > What happens if you bypass the cap, since the > reverb doesn’t have it?

Oh, I put a bypass cap in the reverb channel. It changed from sucking tone to giving tone. See above…I used a 20 mf. Anyhow, with or without the cap, still got the hiss on the Normal channel. I changed it from 5mf to 10mf. BTW, did you see that Doug says it’s really hum? If so, maybe a ground problem that I’m not gonna tackle on this amp. > … > The first section is a lot like "Steve’s Amp" in your pics of the GA-6. > What wisdom is keeping me from moving it off the eyelet board directly to > the grid pin? > None.

OK, I’m stop asking about this….maybe I’ll try it….thanks. > I haven’t got the experience to know. Is it likely no > change > will occur? OK, I know you don’t have a crystal ball. > No, but I do have a spider ball! It’s silver, > with black eyes and legs. It goes in the car > with me.

Don’t expect *me* to get in a car with that thing ;~} > Anyway, I doubt this will help, but you can try, > since (so far) nothing else has helped. If you > hadn’t replaced everything and reflowed the joints, > I’d say the main way this might work was if you had > a bad solder joint.

I think I’ve hit all of ‘em at least once. > I think I bought the wrong spray at the store. I got Caig DeOxit D5 (lube > and cleaner — good for pots?). I guess I gotta go back for the other > stuff > Yes, this is the best thing around for pots, > but it’s not recommended for tube pins. I > forget why.

Yup, pots are just fine now that I’ve gave ‘em a spritz of D5. Nice and fluid. Willie says the heat on the tube pins will turn the lube into varnish and not to try it — he’s an *expert* so I won’t challenge this. I won’t be getting out for it today. It’s 19 degrees outside (11 degrees last night) and I’m waiting for the furnace repair man/woman. Out of shear desparation I figured out how to manually fire up the gas furnace, but it’s off now and I’d prefer not to do it again. It involves fire and I’m thinking "stupid". The electronic parts store is closed on Sunday, imagine that? > :~{. You did say this before. I think I was listening with one ear ;~} > In one ear and out the nostril = that’s why it’s all green. Ayup. > —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Thanks, Miles. Phil

Response:

>>… > Yup, pots are just fine now that I’ve gave ‘em a spritz of D5. Nice and > fluid. Willie says the heat on the tube pins will turn the lube into > varnish and not to try it — he’s an *expert* so I won’t challenge this. > I won’t be getting out for it today. It’s 19 degrees outside (11 degrees > last night) and I’m waiting for the furnace repair man/woman. Out of shear > desparation I figured out how to manually fire up the gas furnace, but it’s > off now and I’d prefer not to do it again. It involves fire and I’m > thinking "stupid". The electronic parts store is closed on Sunday, imagine > that?

Hi, Phil Sounds like your furnace HSI is burnt out or does it have Piezo ignitor? My furnace HSI burnt out once, so I keep a spare one handy now. Here it is -19C today. Big improvement from -31C earlier this week. Our 17 year old dog died the day before in her sleep(heart attack from ailing heart). Going out looking for another dog quick. Son is in sad mood. Doesn’t want to go to his lesson this afternoon. Instead visiting local and area SPCA for another dog. Good luck with your furnace. Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– >http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >—–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—– > Thanks, Miles. > Phil

Response:

> Hi, Phil > Sounds like your furnace HSI is burnt out or does it have Piezo ignitor? > My furnace HSI burnt out once, so I keep a spare one handy now. > Here it is -19C today. Big improvement from -31C earlier this week. > Our 17 year old dog died the day before in her sleep(heart attack from > ailing heart). Going out looking for another dog quick. Son is in sad > mood. Doesn’t want to go to his lesson this afternoon. Instead visiting > local and area SPCA for another dog. > Good luck with your furnace. > Tony

Hi Tony, If HSI is the igniter, then I agree with your diagnosis. Also, with just about anything else, I couldn’t have used a torch to fire it up. I’d have been SOL. I pulled the cover and waited for it to cycle on. When the first gas jet got a little fuel (you can hear it) from the supply line, I lit it up and it sucked the fire in for the rest of the burners (6 of them IIRC). I used one of those $5 lighters, not the ones for tobacco, but with the small gas tank, trigger starter, and wand for lighting gas grills and fireplaces and the like. Once or twice is OK to keep the house warm (it ran for 3 hours this morning to raise the temp from 56F to 68F), but I’m praying the whole time I’m trying to light it that nothing bad will happen. At the end, the house was actually hot and the basement where the furnace sits (and my work bench) was almost unbearable. At 3:00 PM I’m still killing time waiting for the repair person. I’m in the 12-5 window. I’ll bet I’m dead last on the route. There’s no mileage in stocking spare parts because I pay $69/year for a maintenance contract. It’s the only such contract I carry. Most of them are a waste of money, but I’ve gotten some big pay offs from this one. One time I got a new motor. It must have been a $500 repair job. Another time I got about $250 in maintenance. If you call for any little thing, they go over the whole unit and put it in tip top shape. It must be that most folks never call them so they make money. The company is a subsidiary of the local gas and electric co. Sure is cold in your part of the world, western Canada, right? Those are some numbers in your weather report. I think if I lived up there, I’d stock some spare parts too. In Baltimore, this is once a decade cold, if that. Sorry to hear about your dog. 17 is old for a dog, but it doesn’t soften the pain any. Only another pet owner would understand that the dog is member of the family. I’ve got a 4 yr old dachshund. Good luck with the new dog. Hope you find a good one. Phil

Response:

>… BTW, did you see that Doug says it’s really hum? If so, maybe a > ground problem that I’m not gonna tackle on this amp.

They’re distinctly different. Hum is very low frequency. Hiss is high frequency, more like bacon frying. Hum the lowest note you can. Hum is down around there. Now make a noise like a snake hissing. Hiss will be more like that. -Miles —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

<<Miles: Hum is very low frequency. Hiss is high frequency, more like bacon frying. Hum the lowest note you can. Hum is down around there. Now make a noise like a snake hissing. Hiss will be more like that. >> Miles, what you are calling hiss, is hum.

Response:

> <<Miles: Hum is very low frequency. Hiss is high frequency, more like > bacon > frying. Hum the lowest note you can. Hum is down around there. Now make > a noise like a snake hissing. Hiss > will be more like that. > Miles, what you are calling hiss, is hum.

??????? Maybe in California, but I’ve never even heard anyone else from there say that. —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

>Miles: Hum is very low frequency. Hiss is > high frequency, more like bacon > frying. Hum the lowest note you can. > Hum is down around there. Now make > a noise like a snake hissing. Hiss > will be more like that. > Miles, what you are calling hiss, is hum.

** LMAO – Dougie don’t know his head from his arse.

Response:

<<Phil Allission LMAO – Dougie don’t know his head from his arse. >> Oh OK, MRWD40

Response:

Posted in Gas Furnace | No Comments » |

Radiant Floor Heat Water Heater ?

Question:

>I am building a new shop and would like opinions on Radiant floor heat vs. >conventional heating. I also heard that some people use a normal hot water >heater and a circulating pump . Is this a good method ?

Sure. Why not, if it has enough capacity? Then again, you might make a 2-layer plastic film greenhouse roof over steel pipes and fill it with air during the day and foam it with soap bubbles at night for daylighting and simple solar heating with no fuel nor pipes nor pumps. I think Bob Quist in Toronto is now doing this with Venlo glass greenhouses. NREL data indicate December is the worst month for solar heating in Des Moines, when 930 Btu/ft^2 of sun falls on south walls and 520 falls on the ground on an average 24.4 F day. A 20′x30′ shop with 10′ walls could gain 0.8×20x30×520 = 250K Btu/day of roof sun and 0.8×10x30×930 = 223K Btu of south sun on an average day, a total of 473K Btu, or more, with snow on the ground. With R20 insulation (eg 6" of 1/16" soap bubbles at a mean 50 F at night), thermal conductance would be 30 for roof plus 50 for walls, so you could store heat for 5 cloudy days with RC = -120/ln((60-24.4)/(70-24.4)) = 485 hours in C = 80×485 = 39K Btu/F of thermal mass cooling from 70 to 60 F. As an alternative, on an average day, you heat the shop to 70 F for 24 hours and maintain overhead water at a temp T, where 473K = 6h((T+70)/2-24.4)10×30/R1 [daytime south wall] +18h(70-24.4)10×30/R20 [nighttime south wall] + 6h(70-24.4)20×30/R1 [daytime roof] +18h(70-24.4)20×30/R20 [nighttime roof] +24h(70-24.4)10×70/R20 [rest of shop], which makes T = 193 F, if I did that right, but that seems high, given radiation loss. If the shop needs 24h(65-24.4)80 = 78K Btu on a cloudy 24.4 F day or 390K Btu for 5 cloudy days, it needs 390K/(130-70) = 6496 pounds of overhead water cooling from 130 to 70 F, ie a 10.8 psf or 2" layer in a plastic film duct over Mylar film over welded wire fencing, with another layer of film above that and a thermostat and slow ceiling fan below to bring down warm air on a cloudy day. More mass in the shop would reduce the overhead mass requirement, as would a night setback. Overhead mass allows more effective night setbacks, vs a radiant floor. Nick

Response:

Using a suitable heat exchanger then yes. Running potable water through underfloor heating pipes is not advisable at all. — — Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

>Running potable water through underfloor heating pipes >is not advisable at all.

Why not? Nick

Response:

I think it has something with inverse soluble salts where crystal deposits form at high temperatures yet dissolve at low temps. Apparently potable water pipes that are constantly hot suffer from this clogging effect. Dr. S. Harris at Queens University has published several papers outling this problem of salt deposits within various heat exchangers. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Running potable water through underfloor heating pipes >is not advisable at all. > Why not? > Nick

Response:

>Running potable water through underfloor heating pipes >is not advisable at all. > Why not?

If you did that in the UK you may find the water company cutting off your supply. In the far reaches of the system sludge and sediment can build up. During summer the water sits there uncirculated being contaminated. When the heating is switched on, this contaminated water then mixes with water people come in contact with. In the UK, water used for heating (primary water) is never mixed with water people come in contact with (secondary water). Also fresh water in a heating system is foolish as scale can build up within. Scale can mean a total rip out in a matter of a few years, or at the least expensive power flushing and chemical rescaling treatment. I look at some US heating web sites and I am amazed at what they propose. — — Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

>> >Running potable water through underfloor heating pipes > >is not advisable at all. > Why not? >If you did that in the UK you may find the water company cutting off your >supply.

Why? >In the far reaches of the system sludge and sediment can build up. >During summer the water sits there uncirculated being contaminated.

Why would the water be "contaminated"? >When the heating is switched on, this contaminated water then mixes with water >people come in contact with.

One might flush the tubing every fall… >In the UK, water used for heating (primary water) is never mixed with >water people come in contact with (secondary water).

Ah yes. Tradition >Also fresh water in a heating system is foolish as scale can build up within.

The floor is fairly low temp, and no heating occurs there… >Scale can mean a total rip out in a matter of a few years, or at >the least expensive power flushing and chemical rescaling treatment.

Every so often, Mr. Solar, who lives with very hard water, flushes his entire hot water system with a mild acid. Opens the taps, puts a bucket in the sewer line and pumps the acid back into the water heater for a few hours. No big deal. >I look at some US heating web sites and I am amazed at what they propose.

"Look there! No proper boiler! They must be mad!" Nick

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >Running potable water through underfloor heating pipes >> >is not advisable at all. >> Why not? >If you did that in the UK you may find the water company cutting off your >supply. > Why? >In the far reaches of the system sludge and sediment can build up. >During summer the water sits there uncirculated being contaminated. > Why would the water be "contaminated"?

Nick, please? Water can be contaminated for various reasons and water laying there for half a years tend to be prime for contamination. > When the heating is switched on, this > contaminated water then mixes with water > people come in contact with. > One might flush the tubing every fall…

Nuck, Please? No one wants to flush a system every year. the average old person in a house is going to do that? Or they incur charges to get a plumber to flush it. Totally unnecessary if installed correctly. > In the UK, water used for heating > (primary water) is never mixed with > water people come in contact with > (secondary water). > Ah yes. Tradition

Tradition of having the probably the best quality water in the world, and one of safety regulations that prevent backflow (contamination) into potable water mains pipes. The tanks in the attics creates an air break that prevents water back siphoning, among giving a wonderful reserve of water in case of a water outage and a constant head of water up there. > Also fresh water in a heating system > is foolish as scale can build up within. > The floor is fairly low temp, and > no heating occurs there…

It can still buld up. > Scale can mean a total rip out in a > matter of a few years, or at > the least expensive power flushing > and chemical rescaling treatment. > Every so often, Mr. Solar, who lives with > very hard water, flushes his > entire hot water system with a mild acid. > Opens the taps, puts a bucket > in the sewer line and pumps the acid back > into the water heater for > a few hours. No big deal.

In a sealed heating/water system a one litre can of inhibitor is all you need every 5 years. No strong acid or the likes. >I look at some US heating web sites and I am amazed at what they propose. > "Look there! No proper boiler! They must be mad!"

Have a close look at European boilers ( a misnomer from Victorian days as they don’t boil). They totally outstrip US attempts in size efficiency and applied technology. A small box on the kitchen wall will supply all your hydronic heating and on-demand hot water too. have a look at: http://www.eco-hometec.co.uk Rebadged MAN (the diesel and truck maker) boilers from Germany. The US lead in forced air, which is not popular in Europe as basically we didn’t know how to design and fit them in residential houses. By the time we figured it out the damage had been done in image. — — Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

>> >> >Running potable water through underfloor heating pipes > >> >is not advisable at all. > >> Why not? > >If you did that in the UK you may find the water company cutting off your > >supply. > Why?

Why? > >In the far reaches of the system sludge and sediment can build up. > >During summer the water sits there uncirculated being contaminated. > Why would the water be "contaminated"?

Maybe it’s the "far reaches" part. How far is a "far reach"? >Nick, please? Water can be contaminated for various reasons and water >laying there for half a years tend to be prime for contamination.

So… we seal some pure water up in a jar with a few copper ions, put it aside for a year, open it up, and voila, "contamination." OK But suppose the floor has some fresh water flowing through it all year, some fraction of the potable water consumed in the house… > > When the heating is switched on, this > > contaminated water then mixes with water > > people come in contact with. > One might flush the tubing every fall… >Nuck, Please? No one wants to flush a system every year. the average old >person in a house is going to do that? Or they incur charges to get a >plumber to flush it. Totally unnecessary if installed correctly.

You mean "if needlessly overcomplicated with a heat exchanger"? > > In the UK, water used for heating > > (primary water) is never mixed with > > water people come in contact with > > (secondary water). > Ah yes. Tradition >Tradition of having the probably the best quality water in the world…

Long may you wave. > > Also fresh water in a heating system > > is foolish as scale can build up within. > The floor is fairly low temp, and > no heating occurs there… >It can still buld up.

Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? Anyone you know need to descale hot water pipes often? > >I look at some US heating web sites and I am amazed at what they propose. > "Look there! No proper boiler! They must be mad!" >Have a close look at European boilers ( a misnomer from Victorian days as >they don’t boil). They totally outstrip US attempts in size efficiency and >applied technology…

As I recall, Europeans perfected condensing gas boilers 35 years ago… Nick

Response:

The parts that stays stagnant in summer. > Nick, please? Water can be contaminated > for various reasons and water > laying there for half a years tend to be prime > for contamination. > So… we seal some pure water up in a jar

No we don’t seal up water in a jar. We look at why the regulations are so strict. They are strict because contamination in the past tightened the regulations up as time progressed. All for a reason. > But suppose the floor has some > fresh water flowing through it all year, > some fraction of the potable water > consumed in the house…

If the heating system is off all summer no flow will be through the heating pipes. What are going to do? Have a pump working 24-7 to keep the flow? >> > When the heating is switched on, this >> > contaminated water then mixes with water >> > people come in contact with. >> One might flush the tubing every fall… > Nick, Please? No one wants to flush a system > every year. The average old person in a house > is going to do that? Or they incur charges to get a > plumber to flush it. Totally unnecessary if installed correctly. > You mean "if needlessly overcomplicated with a heat exchanger"?

No! installed correctly to prevent water contamination. Coiled heat exchangers in cylinders are not expensive or complicated at all. They are quite dumb with no moving parts – just a coil of copper inside a cylinder. In the UK they are standard and available at the local plumbers merchants. >> > In the UK, water used for heating >> > (primary water) is never mixed with >> > water people come in contact with >> > (secondary water). >> Ah yes. Tradition > Tradition of having the probably the best > quality water in the world… > Long may you wave.

And that we agree on. >> > Also fresh water in a heating system >> > is foolish as scale can build up within. >> The floor is fairly low temp, and >> no heating occurs there… >It can still build up. > Would you have any evidence for this article of faith?

Yes. Being experienced in the game. > Anyone you know need to descale > hot water pipes often?

Over here? No. As we have tighter regulations than elsewhere. >> > I look at some US heating web sites >> > and I am amazed at what they propose. >> "Look there! No proper boiler! They must be mad!" > Have a close look at European boilers (a > misnomer from Victorian days as > they don’t boil). They totally outstrip US attempts > in size efficiency and applied technology… > As I recall, Europeans perfected condensing > gas boilers 35 years ago…

The Dutch did research on condensing boilers in the 1950s. They never really took off until 15-20 years ago. In Holland 95% plus of all boilers are condensing boilers. The UK is slow to take them up as they are slightly more expensive and produce an exhaust plume. Legislation in the UK in a few years time means that all boilers sold will be condensing boilers as the minimum efficiency of boilers is being raised from 78% to 86%. The lower the return temperature the more efficient they are. Microprocessor control of many of these boilers, complete with load compensation control, aims to reduce the return temperature as much as possible. — — Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

> During summer the water sits there uncirculated being contaminated.

Then you haven’t done a very good job of reading. The heating pipes are NSF certified for potable water use, just like the water supply line, and all the cold water supply to the water heater is configured to go through the system, year round, so it never stagnates. There is no difference between this and having another length of water supply pipe (such as if you live a short distance down the road from where you live now). And as my friend who lives in Dulwich says, you’d be stunned at some of the things you find in the much vaunted British water distribution system’s house supply tank. There is, however, a much better reason for not using plain water in the system – in the event of a heating system failure, we have a significant hazard of the floor pipes freezing. This would be most inconvenient and expensive. — Cats, Coffee, Chocolate…vices to live by

Response:

What is a condensing gas boiler ? Thanks, Iowa883

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >> >Running potable water through underfloor heating pipes >> >> >is not advisable at all. >> >> Why not? >> >If you did that in the UK you may find the water company cutting off your >> >supply. >> Why? > Why? >> >In the far reaches of the system sludge and sediment can build up. >> >During summer the water sits there uncirculated being contaminated. >> Why would the water be "contaminated"? > Maybe it’s the "far reaches" part. How far is a "far reach"? >Nick, please? Water can be contaminated for various reasons and water >laying there for half a years tend to be prime for contamination. > So… we seal some pure water up in a jar with a few copper ions, put > it aside for a year, open it up, and voila, "contamination." OK But > suppose the floor has some fresh water flowing through it all year, > some fraction of the potable water consumed in the house… >> > When the heating is switched on, this >> > contaminated water then mixes with water >> > people come in contact with. >> One might flush the tubing every fall… >Nuck, Please? No one wants to flush a system every year. the average old >person in a house is going to do that? Or they incur charges to get a >plumber to flush it. Totally unnecessary if installed correctly. > You mean "if needlessly overcomplicated with a heat exchanger"? >> > In the UK, water used for heating >> > (primary water) is never mixed with >> > water people come in contact with >> > (secondary water). >> Ah yes. Tradition >Tradition of having the probably the best quality water in the world… > Long may you wave. >> > Also fresh water in a heating system >> > is foolish as scale can build up within. >> The floor is fairly low temp, and >> no heating occurs there… >It can still buld up. > Would you have any evidence for this article of faith? > Anyone you know need to descale hot water pipes often? >> >I look at some US heating web sites and I am amazed at what they propose. >> "Look there! No proper boiler! They must be mad!" >Have a close look at European boilers ( a misnomer from Victorian days as >they don’t boil). They totally outstrip US attempts in size efficiency and >applied technology… > As I recall, Europeans perfected condensing gas boilers 35 years ago… > Nick

Response:

> During summer the water sits there > uncirculated being contaminated. > Then you haven’t done a very good job of reading.

I didn’t receive the first posts. > The heating pipes are NSF certified for potable > water use, just like the water supply line, > and all the cold water supply to the water heater > is configured to go through the system, year round, > so it never stagnates. There is no difference between > this and having another length of water supply pipe > (such as if you live a short distance down the road > from where you live now).

You then had better make sure you pipe it up properly, so that there is always flow through the system not leaving stagnant sections. If in a hard water area I would not even dream of doing such a thing. Once again do that in the UK and the water company hear of it, they will cut off your supply until the heating circuit is separated from the potable water, irrespective if you use potable pipes and a bronze pump. An advantage of your approach is that if cold water mains water works it way through a hydronic under floor circuit, it will also help cool the house in summer. So some sort of free cooling. > And as my friend who lives in Dulwich > says, you’d be stunned at some of > the things you find in the much vaunted > British water distribution > system’s house supply tank.

Modern cold water tanks are made from poly and have sealed lids with mesh filters on overflows to prevent insects from entering. I have looked in many that have been fitted after many years and found no debris, insects, etc inside. Leave it open you are asking for trouble. The cold feed from the tanks to hot water storage cylinder and cold baths taps, etc, are taken about 3 inches from the base, so any debris settles at the bottom of the tank and is not drawn into the pipework. BTW, this water is not for drinking. Still today half the water systems fitted in the UK are the traditional cold tank/hot cylinder. Most people prefer it as it is super simple with only one moving part, the cold water storage tank ball cock. You always have a reserve of water. Even in WW2 when German bombs would destroy the local water mains pipes, people had a water reserve in the house, until the cold mains pipes were fixed. Southern Ireland forbids any other type of system – mains pressure systems are out. If after installing all the correct equipment you get matter in the water, then it is coming through the cold water mains pipe, and that is the same stuff that settles on the bottom of the hot water tanks in the US – only you don’t see it until you rip it out. > There is, however, a much better reason for not using plain water in the > system – in the event of a heating system failure, we have a significant > hazard of the floor pipes freezing. This would be most inconvenient and > expensive.

Inhibitor in heating systems also acts as anti-freeze too, depending on the type used. — — Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

> What is a condensing gas boiler ?

It heats water which is pumped around a circuit to radiators, hydronic underfloor circuits, hot water cylinders, etc. The lower the return temperature the more efficient they are. The cool return temperatures cool the products of combustion of the gas burner. When the these gasses are below 54C they condense producing water. During this process heat is given off, making the boiler more efficient. Many boilers have electronics to assess the heat load and reduce the flow temperature to suit, promoting efficiency. Non-condensing gas equipment is designed not to condense, hence it all runs at high temperatures, with all the ancillary equipment around the systems also designed to run at high temperatures too. See for a picture: http://www.ravenheat.co.uk/productsCSI85TECHNICAL.htm — — Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

>> What is a condensing gas boiler ? >It heats water… The cool return temperatures cool the products of >combustion of the gas burner. When the these gasses are below 54C >they condense producing water.

Water boils at 54 C in the UK? Nick

Response:

>>>What is a condensing gas boiler ? >It heats water… The cool return temperatures cool the products of >combustion of the gas burner. When the these gasses are below 54C >they condense producing water. > Water boils at 54 C in the UK?

At some height in Her Majesty’s airspace, yes. Michael

Response:

>> What is a condensing gas boiler ? > It heats water… The cool return > temperatures cool the products of > combustion of the gas burner. When > the these gasses are below 54C > they condense producing water. > Water boils at 54 C in the UK?

Yes. Depending how much it is pressurised. But let’s not be sidetracked. Pedantic Nick comes in…:-) Well when the flue gasses are dropped below 54C "condensing" operation starts, getting heavier as the temperature drops. That better? — — Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

>>>What is a condensing gas boiler ? >>It heats water… The cool return temperatures cool the products of >>combustion of the gas burner. When the these gasses are below 54C >>they condense producing water. > Water boils at 54 C in the UK? > At some height in Her Majesty’s airspace, yes.

So having coffee way up is going to use a lot of gas. — — Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

>When the flue gasses are dropped below 54C "condensing" operation starts, >getting heavier as the temperature drops. That better?

No… Nick

Response:

> > >>>What is a condensing gas boiler ? >Sounds like an "Organic Fluid Vaporizer" referred to in the ASME

code, part PVG. Boilers can be run with liquids other than water. For some liquids, the boiling temperature might be much less than the boiling point of water. For liquids other than water, the safety relief valves are made in such a way that none of the vapors are allowed to escape into the work area. A boiler using say alcohol instead of water might have hot oil as its heat source rather than a flame.

Response:

>When the flue gasses are dropped below 54C "condensing" operation starts, >getting heavier as the temperature drops. That better? > No… > Nick

Give us a shot at it then. — — Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

> >When the flue gasses are dropped below 54C "condensing" operation starts, > >getting heavier as the temperature drops. That better? > No… > Nick > Give us a shot at it then.

How about, "When the flue gasses are cooled below 54C, a significant portion of the water vapour in the gasses is condensed, thus contributing the latent heat of vaporization to the total heat added to the water in the boiler. While a portion of the vapour obviously could be condensed with higher temperatures, by lowering flue gasses to 54C, a larger fraction is condensed within the limits of the boiler’s heat-exchanger and therefore more total heat absorbed from the flue gasses before they are discharged to the environment." If your high-efficiency forced air furnace worked with an air return temperature a lot higher thann it does, it wouldn’t be ‘high-efficiency’ since a lot of water vapour in the flue gasses would not be condensed. In order to get the same kind of efficiency with a water heating ‘boiler’, one needs a section of the flue to be cooled by a rather ‘cool’ return water (say, 54C or 130F). If the return water from the heating loop to the ‘boiler’ was a lot warmer (say 180F or 82C), then a lot of the water vapour in the flue gas would *not* condense and its heat of vaporization lost. The problem is the water vapour in the flue gasses is mixed with air and CO2 so it doesn’t just all condense at 100C/212F. daestrom

Response:

You guys keep using 54C what ever happened to 100C? Offgridman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>When the flue gasses are dropped below 54C "condensing" operation > starts, >>>getting heavier as the temperature drops. That better? >>No… >>Nick >Give us a shot at it then. > How about, > "When the flue gasses are cooled below 54C, a significant portion of the > water vapour in the gasses is condensed, thus contributing the latent heat > of vaporization to the total heat added to the water in the boiler. While a > portion of the vapour obviously could be condensed with higher temperatures, > by lowering flue gasses to 54C, a larger fraction is condensed within the > limits of the boiler’s heat-exchanger and therefore more total heat absorbed > from the flue gasses before they are discharged to the environment." > If your high-efficiency forced air furnace worked with an air return > temperature a lot higher thann it does, it wouldn’t be ‘high-efficiency’ > since a lot of water vapour in the flue gasses would not be condensed. In > order to get the same kind of efficiency with a water heating ‘boiler’, one > needs a section of the flue to be cooled by a rather ‘cool’ return water > (say, 54C or 130F). If the return water from the heating loop to the > ‘boiler’ was a lot warmer (say 180F or 82C), then a lot of the water vapour > in the flue gas would *not* condense and its heat of vaporization lost. > The problem is the water vapour in the flue gasses is mixed with air and CO2 > so it doesn’t just all condense at 100C/212F. > daestrom

Response:

> You guys keep using 54C what ever happened to 100C? > Offgridman

The question came up when ‘News’ was describing a ‘condensing gas boiler’. He was trying to explain that it is really just a water heater used for heating the water in a hydronic heating loop. The term ‘boiler’ is just a hold over from old days of steam-heat. Anyway, these units are more efficient than older style units, in part, because they use a slow circulating system for the hydronic heating tubing. With a slower flow rate, the return water from the loop is cooler. This cooler water (in the range of around 54C in ‘News’s example) will extract more energy out of the flue gases than if the returning water was still quite hot (say, 80-90C). The reason it can extract a lot more energy is because the cooler the water is, the more water-vapour can be condensed out of the flue gasses. Now, someone asked why the water-vapour didn’t condense out of the flue gasses at 100C, after all, water boils at 100C (near sea-level), so it should condense at 100C as well. Right??? If you have a bottle/tank/container filled with steam at atmospheric pressure, it *will* condense at 100C, just like we all learned in school. BUT, if it is a mixture of steam and other gasses, things get more complicated. If the container is filled with 1/2 steam and 1/2 air (by volume), then the partial pressure of air is 7.35 psi, and the partial pressure of steam is only 7.35. When steam is at a partial pressure of 7.35 psi, it won’t condense at 100C. You must cool the mixture until the temperature is such that the saturation pressure is equal to (or below) the *actual* partial pressure of the steam. Like moisture and humidity in the air. On a typical summer day, the air is warm and has some moisture in it. When night comes and the air cools, the saturation pressure drops and some of the moisture condenses out on things as dew. The ‘dew point temperature’ is the temperature you have to cool the air down to, in order to get any moisture to condense out. The following morning, as the air warms up, it is able to hold more moisture, so things dry off again. Never get near 100C, but moisture condenses/evaporates with the mild temperature change from night to day. The flue gasses of a NG fired furnace or water heater (‘boiler’) are a mixture of air from the intake, CO2, and steam. *IF* the furnace/’boiler’ can cool them down far enough to get some of the steam to condense, then the latent-heat-of-vaporization the steam has, will be given over to the furnace. This is a significant fraction of the total energy liberated in burning the NG. High-efficiency force-air gas furnaces get this because the return air of the home is cool enough to cool the flue gasses down to the point where a fair amount of the steam/moisture condenses. But with a water-heater, the return water temperature *could* be too high to condense very much of the flue gas steam. So, ‘News’ was trying to point out that the return water has to be relatively cool in order to get the ‘efficiency boost’ of condensing flue gas steam. Now, does *anybody* have any more questions????? ;-) daestrom

Response:

Thanks for the detailed explaination. Offgridman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You guys keep using 54C what ever happened to 100C? >Offgridman > The question came up when ‘News’ was describing a ‘condensing gas boiler’. > He was trying to explain that it is really just a water heater used for > heating the water in a hydronic heating loop. The term ‘boiler’ is just a > hold over from old days of steam-heat. > Anyway, these units are more efficient than older style units, in part, > because they use a slow circulating system for the hydronic heating tubing. > With a slower flow rate, the return water from the loop is cooler. This > cooler water (in the range of around 54C in ‘News’s example) will extract > more energy out of the flue gases than if the returning water was still > quite hot (say, 80-90C). > The reason it can extract a lot more energy is because the cooler the water > is, the more water-vapour can be condensed out of the flue gasses. Now, > someone asked why the water-vapour didn’t condense out of the flue gasses at > 100C, after all, water boils at 100C (near sea-level), so it should condense > at 100C as well. Right??? > If you have a bottle/tank/container filled with steam at atmospheric > pressure, it *will* condense at 100C, just like we all learned in school. > BUT, if it is a mixture of steam and other gasses, things get more > complicated. If the container is filled with 1/2 steam and 1/2 air (by > volume), then the partial pressure of air is 7.35 psi, and the partial > pressure of steam is only 7.35. When steam is at a partial pressure of 7.35 > psi, it won’t condense at 100C. You must cool the mixture until the > temperature is such that the saturation pressure is equal to (or below) the > *actual* partial pressure of the steam. > Like moisture and humidity in the air. On a typical summer day, the air is > warm and has some moisture in it. When night comes and the air cools, the > saturation pressure drops and some of the moisture condenses out on things > as dew. The ‘dew point temperature’ is the temperature you have to cool the > air down to, in order to get any moisture to condense out. The following > morning, as the air warms up, it is able to hold more moisture, so things > dry off again. Never get near 100C, but moisture condenses/evaporates with > the mild temperature change from night to day. > The flue gasses of a NG fired furnace or water heater (‘boiler’) are a > mixture of air from the intake, CO2, and steam. *IF* the furnace/’boiler’ > can cool them down far enough to get some of the steam to condense, then the > latent-heat-of-vaporization the steam has, will be given over to the > furnace. This is a significant fraction of the total energy liberated in > burning the NG. High-efficiency force-air gas furnaces get this because the > return air of the home is cool enough to cool the flue gasses down to the > point where a fair amount of the steam/moisture condenses. But with a > water-heater, the return water temperature *could* be too high to condense > very much of the flue gas steam. > So, ‘News’ was trying to point out that the return water has to be > relatively cool in order to get the ‘efficiency boost’ of condensing flue > gas steam. > Now, does *anybody* have any more questions????? ;-) > daestrom

Response:

> You guys keep using 54C what ever happened to 100C? > Offgridman > The question came up when ‘News’ was describing a ‘condensing gas boiler’. > He was trying to explain that it is really just a water heater used for > heating the water in a hydronic heating loop.

I wasn’t trying, I did a simple overview quite well, having just re-read it. > The term ‘boiler’ is just a > hold over from old days of steam-heat. > Anyway, these units are more efficient than older style units, in part, > because they use a slow circulating system for the hydronic heating tubing. > With a slower flow rate, the return water from the loop is cooler.

The flow rates have little to do with it. It is the return temperature that matters. Some boilers have electronic control systems that modulate the internal pump to achieve the lowest return temperature possible. In fact at certain times having the pump speed very high will reduce the return temperature. The maximum speed of a domestic system is determined by: 1) The noise emitted by the system 2) Errosion of the innner wals of the pipes due to higher water speeds (friction). Problems can arise due to excessive water speeds, which in extreme conditions can cause premature tube failure by one of several mechanisms including erosion/corrosion and/or cavitation. The recommended maximum water velocity with good design practice and installation is 2ms-1 irrespective of tube outside diameter. So, this may act against a control system attempting to gain maximum efficiencies. > This cooler water (in the range of around 54C > in ‘News’s example) will extract > more energy out of the flue gases than if the > returning water was still > quite hot (say, 80-90C).

The cooler the return water more efficient. Condensing starts at around 54C. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The reason it can extract a lot more energy is because the cooler the water > is, the more water-vapour can be condensed out of the flue gasses. Now, > someone asked why the water-vapour didn’t condense out of the flue gasses at > 100C, after all, water boils at 100C (near sea-level), so it should condense > at 100C as well. Right??? > If you have a bottle/tank/container filled with steam at atmospheric > pressure, it *will* condense at 100C, just like we all learned in school. > BUT, if it is a mixture of steam and other gasses, things get more > complicated. If the container is filled with 1/2 steam and 1/2 air (by > volume), then the partial pressure of air is 7.35 psi, and the partial > pressure of steam is only 7.35. When steam is at a partial pressure of 7.35 > psi, it won’t condense at 100C. You must cool the mixture until the > temperature is such that the saturation pressure is equal to (or below) the > *actual* partial pressure of the steam. > Like moisture and humidity in the air. On a typical summer day, the air is > warm and has some moisture in it. When night comes and the air cools, the > saturation pressure drops and some of the moisture condenses out on things > as dew. The ‘dew point temperature’ is the temperature you have to cool the > air down to, in order to get any moisture to condense out. The following > morning, as the air warms up, it is able to hold more moisture, so things > dry off again. Never get near 100C, but moisture condenses/evaporates with > the mild temperature change from night to day. > The flue gasses of a NG fired furnace or water heater (‘boiler’) are a > mixture of air from the intake, CO2, and steam. *IF* the furnace/’boiler’ > can cool them down far enough to get some of the steam to condense, then the > latent-heat-of-vaporization the steam has, will be given over to the > furnace. This is a significant fraction of the total energy liberated in > burning the NG. High-efficiency force-air gas furnaces get this because the > return air of the home is cool enough to cool the flue gasses down to the > point where a fair amount of the steam/moisture condenses. But with a > water-heater, the return water temperature *could* be too high to condense > very much of the flue gas steam.

That is why electronics are used to get the return water as low as possible, and/or engineering the heating system to give the lowest return temp,mp as possible – usually but having larger emitters. BTW, I have a condensing boiler and oversized the radiators to assist in lowering the return temp. I also installed an outside weather compensator which lowers or raises the return temperature of the return water to outside conditions. Most of the time it is below 54C. > So, ‘News’ was trying to point out that the return water has to be > relatively cool in order to get the ‘efficiency boost’ of condensing flue > gas steam.

I think I did that easy enough, without going into minute detail. > Now, does *anybody* have any more questions????? ;-)

Who killed JFK? — — Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Posted in Gas Furnace | No Comments » |

OT Company coming

Question:

My parents are coming here (from WA) in a few hours. They’ll be here for 8 days and my Dad is a real computer hog. So if you don’t hear from me much, in the upcoming days, that’s why. My daughter and I are also sick. She came home from school yesterday telling me that she had spent most of the day crying. And she looked like it. At that point she didn’t think she was sick. She thought she just wanted to come home. When I saw that she hadn’t touched her snack and had barely touched her lunch, I knew something was wrong. Not sure what we have, but we have pains in our feet, headaches, fevers, occasional stomach pains, and are really sleepy. Taking Motrin makes us feel somewhat normal, but when it wears off we are drooping again. Seems like every time my parents come, Angela gets sick and then we pass it back and forth. Hopefully we’ll be better by the 21st. The Dali Lama will be in Central Park then. Maybe we can go see him. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

Response:

Do you have a natural gas furnace or stove? If so, you may want to check for any carbon dioxide leaks. Some of those symptoms are the same as CO2 poisoning. Just being precautionary here. Hope you and she feel better soon and you have a nice visit with your folks! Mary

Response:

> Not sure what we have, but we have pains in our feet, headaches, >fevers, occasional stomach pains, and are really sleepy. Taking Motrin >makes us feel somewhat normal, but when it wears off we are drooping again. > Do you have a natural gas furnace or stove? If so, you may want to check for > any carbon dioxide leaks. Some of those symptoms are the same as CO2 > poisoning. Just being precautionary here. Hope you and she feel better soon > and you have a nice visit with your folks!

We have both. Actually two furnaces because this weird apt. we live in was once two apts. But we also have Carbon Monoxide detectors. It is "Monoxide" that’s the problem; is it not? If CO2 were a problem, everyone with house plants would be in trouble. My daughter went for a follow-up with her allergist today and I mentioned the symptoms. The Dr. said there are several things going around here, but the symptoms we have are probably the thing that runs its course in 48 hours. Daughter seems to be doing much better, although rather tired. She was really keyed up about grandma and grandpa coming, so that that probably didn’t help. I’m feeling much better, although tired and now chilled. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

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> The Dali Lama will > be in Central Park

I saw him last week. Time well spent.

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Posted in Gas Furnace | No Comments » |

ice storm (emergengy heat

Question:

Has anyone done the math on powering a gas furnace with an inverter (or whatever) when the power goes out? Know there are many variables, blower volts/amps, thermostat transformer, etc. Here in NC I just use a kero heater (electric furnace), but up in Ohio (Cleveland) we had a gravity flow gas furnace (congersion from an old coal burner). The valve had an exposed solenoid and during the power outages, we clamped the solenoid with a pair of vise-grips and ran it till it was 95, shut it off till the temp got too clod to be comfortable and repeated the process. Had four neighbors ‘visiting’ for a week back in ‘78. ben

Response:

> Has anyone done the math on powering a gas furnace with an inverter (or > whatever) when the power goes out? Know there are many variables, blower > volts/amps, thermostat transformer, etc. > Here in NC I just use a kero heater (electric furnace), but up in Ohio > (Cleveland) we had a gravity flow gas furnace (congersion from an old coal > burner). The valve had an exposed solenoid and during the power outages, we > clamped the solenoid with a pair of vise-grips and ran it till it was 95, > shut it off till the temp got too clod to be comfortable and repeated the > process. > Had four neighbors ‘visiting’ for a week back in ‘78.

Your run of the mill gas furnace back in the 60s had a "thermopyle" type gas valve which meant that the gas flame could come on even if there was no power. A separate fan control would turn the fan on when the air got hot. If the fan didn’t come on, the temperature would continue to rise and open up the circuit to the gas valve. This system would provide some heat without mains electrical power. When air conditioning became standard, most furnaces used AC controlled gas valves with the "thermopyle" circuit as an additional safety device to keep the gas off when the pilot is out. Higher and high efficiency furnaces have electronic controls that absolutely depend upon AC power or they will not turn on the gas. ANYWAY: if you furnace isn’t an antique, you gotta give it the AC power it wants. The "modern" furnaces just aren’t designed to operate without the fan running. The safety trip may not prevent excessive wear and tear on the firebox. IOW: don’t try to operate without full power to the furnace. BUT: if you have a gas or propane furnace you can get cheap and safe ventless gas heaters that can be connected with tubing and placed where you want the heat. A ventless heater in the basement and another in the living room (maybe in the form of a fake fireplace) will keep you quite comfortable during power outages. Of course, you should have a battery operated CO detector if you use ventless gas heaters. You should have some kind of CO detector if you have any gas or oil usage in the home. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ben

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Propane, cold, loss of flow… help?

Question:

Gentlefolks, For an experiment I wrapped the tank in a thin black cloth (i.e. no insulative value, just as a solar thermal collector) yesterday afternoon in the sun. The ambient temperature was higher as well, so it’s hard to say which contributed most to warming the tank. In any case behaviour was as predicted from the information you’ve supplied, i.e. we were able to use the oven yesterday evening. This morning, back to where we were. Nice to know what’s going on. I’m going to take this up with the gas supplier however, since as I mentioned, this has not been a problem — or at least not enough to notice — in two winters past. I don’t think I’ll be messing with nitrogen and tank modifications BTW; as I mentioned if all goes according to plan, propane will have limited application here. Interesting reading though, especially the note from McMurdo1 in Antarctica. And people think *I* should move — phht. Yeah, it may be cold in the winter, but at least there are no mosquitoes… Thanks again, -=s

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Captain; > Your site says propanes octane rating is 125. Since > most persons use regular unleaded (octane 87) in > gasoline engines/generators why, I wonder, do they > derate engines that use propane by 10%? > You seem to be under the impression that octane ratings > are a measure of the energy content of the fuel. > It isn’t. > Or then maybe I don’t understand octane ratings. > Octane ratings are a basically a measure of the fuels > resistance to detonation at high compression pressures. > Kirk > Duane

Means the valves won’t rattle when you accelerate The higher octane rating allowed the engine timing to be advanced farther without the engine rattling (detonation). The lead in the gas allowed the higher octane rating (and maybe part of the higher gas mileage). Propane has no lead so even though it’s octane is very high, the energy needed for higher gas milage isn’t there. When ‘hi-test’ gas was 101 octane (and had lead in it), a 2 ton car with a 400ci engine could get 22mpg on the highway. With modern unleaded gas and 81 octane, the smaller, lighter, computerized cars with big engines (3.2L six= 195ci) are lucky to get 15…..go figure. BTW history says when tetra-ethyl lead was discovered (and ultimately won the race for use in gas), there were other additives that worked as well or better. But IIRC it was Dupont that had the money to push the use of lead and put the others out of business. ben

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Hi Captain; > Your site says propanes octane rating is 125. Since > most persons use regular unleaded (octane 87) in > gasoline engines/generators why, I wonder, do they > derate engines that use propane by 10%?

You seem to be under the impression that octane ratings are a measure of the energy content of the fuel. It isn’t. > Or then maybe I don’t understand octane ratings.

Octane ratings are a basically a measure of the fuels resistance to detonation at high compression pressures. > Kirk

Duane — Home of the $35 LED solar tracker. http://www.redrok.com/electron.htm#led3 CUL8ER \ Receiver Powered by \ [*] Thermonuclear SolarEnergyfrom the Sun /////| Energy(the Sun) \ / / // / /| / / / / / / | WA0VBE / / / / / / /| Ziggy / / / / / / | / / / / \ / / / | "Red Rock Energy" === === / / === / === Duane C. Johnson, Designer=== === === / | 1825 Florence St Mirrors,Heliostats,Controls & Mounts| White Bear Lake, Minnesota / | USA 55110-3364 | (651)635-5O65 work / | (651)426-4766 home use Courier New Font | (413)556-659O Fax copyright / | (651)583-2O62 Red Rock Energy Site (C)980907 === | http://www.redrok.com/index.htm (My New Web site) | These are my opinions, and not that of Unisys Corp. ===

Response:

Tap out the bottom of the tank. Put a small tank of nitrogen and a regulator to pressurize the tank. Take the cold liquid at pressure and heat it for distribution and use in the house. A counter flow heat exchanger with a spiral tube containing the warming fuel, coldest at the top, and a small flame at the bottom, perhaps some baffles and such, should do the job nicely. I have no idea where one would buy such a system. You would certainly want to include safety features to prevent overpressure or overheating, and to shut off flow on a failure. Some inspection process, so you can open it up and inspect for corrosion and cracking, and a construction that will confine any flame on an internal failure out the exhaust port and well isolated from flammable house materials. I think you are dealing with a fundamental problem with attempting to use a self pressurizing gas system, and the best way out of this is with a better system design. I think the above will work well, but it is not a construction I would want to enter into in a haphazard manner. A standard gas furnace can be frightengly dangerous after years of use, when corrosion opens up some of the passages and open flames can escape to play along the thin metal walls, scorching the nearby wood posts. This system should be built to last a lifetime, and to fail as safely as possible. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->HOT DAMN! >Thanks all very much for the education. >The percentage of butane in the mix may be an issue, since as I >mentioned we’ve never had this problem before and it’s sure as heck >been this cold before. OTOH, the wind has been pretty wicked lately >too, so that may be a factor as well. >I figured someone would mention heat tape, hee hee… someone who >hasn’t noticed me extolling the virtues of the 300W(peak) solar array >here. We don’t "do" heat tape. >Truth is I’m not really keen on propane at all – and not that >comfortable with having a 1000lb tank of anything up against the house >either. But, it was here when we took the place and it’s certainly >doing a job for us while life goes on and we move towards >alternatives. >Thanks again everyone for your kind assistance. I’ll let you know what >happens, and no worries, I won’t be lighting any fires under the tank, >eh? >CHEERS!! >-=s > We have our 1000lb tank 250′ away down at the bottom of a hill. Main > reason is it is MUCH easier for the truck to fill it there. Not to > mention if it went up we would have a chance. Slim but a chance. > Kirk > "There’s a lot to be said > for a blow to the head", BOC. > www.mindspring.com/~captkirk2/ > www.stormyacres.com

Response:

Propane supplies less energy than gasoline, it is C3 while gasoline is some C4 and up. The amount of carbon contained in a fuel directly affects the available quantity of energy. Diesel contains more energy than Gasoline and so on. By the way C3 boils at about -41

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Heat pump VS gas or oil heat

Question:

Im in the market for a new home and have noticed some of the homes in the area Im interested in have heat pumps instead of gas or oil heating. Is there a difference in the heating bill from a heat pump to a more conventional gas or oil? My area is in north/central NJ and would love to get some input/advice on these heat pumps. Thanks Gil

Response:

> Im in the market for a new home and have noticed some of the homes in > the area Im interested in have heat pumps instead of gas or oil > heating. > Is there a difference in the heating bill from a heat pump to a more > conventional gas or oil?

Heat pumps suck. I have one. a) they don’t put out very hot air, b) the coils are always freezing over (they have a defrost cycle to unfreeze them, which works, but turns the area around your heat pump into a soggy mess), c) they don’t work well when it’s below around 35 degrees, turning into regular strip-type electric ($$$$) heaters at that time. > My area is in north/central NJ and would love to get some input/advice > on these heat pumps.

If you can get gas or oil, do it. It’s worth it. I have a heat pump, and even in my moderate climate (Phoenix AZ) I wish that the previous owner had spent the money installing a gas unit. As it is, I have to wait the 5 or 6 years until this thing kicks the bucket before I can upgrade to gas (sigh). Oh, that’s another thing — heat pumps don’t last as long as gas or oil furnaces. You regularly see 20 year old gas or oil furnaces. Heck, I even saw a 40 year old gas furnace a few months ago, that still worked fine. On the other hand, 20 year old heat pumps are virtually unknown. — Eric Lee Green GnuPG public key at http://badtux.org/eric/eric.gpg —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > ruminated: > Im in the market for a new home and have noticed some of the > homes in the area Im interested in have heat pumps instead of gas > or oil heating. > Is there a difference in the heating bill from a heat pump to a > more conventional gas or oil? > Heat pumps suck. I have one. a) they don’t put out very hot air, > b) the coils are always freezing over (they have a defrost cycle > to unfreeze them, which works, but turns the area around your heat > pump into a soggy mess), c) they don’t work well when it’s below > around 35 degrees, turning into regular strip-type electric ($$$$) > heaters at that time. > My area is in north/central NJ and would love to get some > input/advice on these heat pumps. > If you can get gas or oil, do it. It’s worth it. I have a heat > pump, and even in my moderate climate (Phoenix AZ) I wish that the > previous owner had spent the money installing a gas unit. As it > is, I have to wait the 5 or 6 years until this thing kicks the > bucket before I can upgrade to gas (sigh). Oh, that’s another > thing — heat pumps don’t last as long as gas or oil furnaces. You > regularly see 20 year old gas or oil furnaces. Heck, I even saw a > 40 year old gas furnace a few months ago, that still worked fine. > On the other hand, 20 year old heat pumps are virtually unknown.

If you decide or circumstances dictate a heat pump, get one of the type with a "scroll" compressor rather than a conventional piston compressor. We don’t have gas, so heat pump is our only choice. In 1994, I replaced a19 year old unit that was still working. It probably would have gone 2 more years, but I wanted to replace it when I coould do the necessaary bidding and research, instead of having to go with whoeber would come out over a weekend in the middel of winter and have me by the ‘nads. I was able to get a top -of-the-line Carrier at a reduced price form Carrier rebate and a local electric company rebate. Both totaled $1200. I judge the effectiveness of the unit by the amount of griping my wife does in the winter. This unit does my whole houde (3200 sqft) wihtout having to light a fire in the buck stove. Ther is NO griping by wife ergo success. If I were building a new house, I would go with hot water heat (oil or gas) and radiant floor delivery. Some friends have this system, and it is excellent. Each room is its own zone and it’s great to step out of bed in the AM to a toasty warm floor. More quiet than forced air and better distribution thatn baseboard radiators. If engineered properly the heating and hot water systems can supplement one another for more energy savings. Only problem is you still need ducts for a/c. — Jungle Jim 5-4-3-2-1-0-Thunderbirds are GO!

Response:

>Is there a difference in the heating bill from a heat pump to a more >conventional gas or oil?

Sure, the bill for the heat pump comes from the electric company. The bill for gas comes from the gas company (which may or may not be the same company as the electric company); and the bill for oil would come from the oil company….. The heat pump works decently until it starts to get COLD rather than cool. Then the booster or backup electric resistance heating comes on, and that really eats up the power. If you have a heat pump, that implies you have A/C, and forced air heat. Where you gonna have central A/C anyway? Or would you do a gas or oil heating system (which then doesn’t have to be forced air), without central A/C? If one lives in a mild heating climate, and wanted A/C anyway, then a heat pump can work okay (my mother had one in Tennessee). I live in a cold climate with no central A/C, and I would not have a heat pump. You are in the middle, there is no obvious clear answer, that is why you see both in the neighborhood. -v.

Response:

>…… I have to >wait the 5 or 6 years until this thing kicks the bucket before I can >upgrade to gas (sigh)…..

"Have to"? Eric, are the heat pump police gonna come and arrest you, if you take it out ‘too soon’ (by whose standards)? My gawd, what if the thing lasts another 10 years, then you will really suffer. Hey, for a small fee, maybe I could come by with a big hammer and ruin it for you right now, then you could have the heat that you liked, right away, instead of in 5 or 6 years! -v.

Response:

> Previously, Eric Lee Green wrote in misc.consumers.house: > don’t last as long. Still, in a moderate or hot area (like Phoenix) where > you need an a/c unit anyway a heat pump will be initially cheaper than a > separate a/c unit and gas furnace. It won’t be as comfortable in real > cold weather, but…

You’d think, but basically a heat pump package unit vs. a gas furnace/AC package unit (I have an older Phoenix home that has a package unit perched up on the roof) is a wash, price-wise. The only reason the previous owner went with the heat pump was because he was a cheapskate and didn’t want to pay to run gas to the roof (sigh). The cost of running gas to the roof was the only big difference in price. — Eric Lee Green GnuPG public key at http://badtux.org/eric/eric.gpg —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

>Im in the market for a new home and have noticed some of the homes in >the area Im interested in have heat pumps instead of gas or oil >heating. >Is there a difference in the heating bill from a heat pump to a more >conventional gas or oil? >My area is in north/central NJ and would love to get some input/advice >on these heat pumps. >Thanks >Gil

Natural gas is much cheaper to heat with in 99% of the country. An 80% furnace should be much cheaper to run than a heat pump and a 90% furnace is even more so.. The electric companies and hvac manufacturers were pushing heat pumps together and duped about half the population into thinking that heat pumps were more efficient than natural gas. They came up with COP numbers which show heat pumps more efficient than electric strips. DUH!. Some very intelligent people were fooled into thinking that the same goes for heat pumps natural gas. Lord, forgive them, for they know not what they are saying.

Response:

Previously, Eric Lee Green wrote in misc.consumers.house: > Im in the market for a new home and have noticed some of the homes in > the area Im interested in have heat pumps instead of gas or oil > heating. > Is there a difference in the heating bill from a heat pump to a more > conventional gas or oil? > Heat pumps suck. I have one. a) they don’t put out very hot air, b) > the coils are always freezing over (they have a defrost cycle to unfreeze > them, which works, but turns the area around your heat pump into a soggy > mess), c) they don’t work well when it’s below around 35 degrees, turning > into regular strip-type electric ($$$$) heaters at that time.

I agree. I’ve had heat pumps in 3 of the 4 houses I’ve owned, and none of them were as good during heating season as the one house I had with a gas furnace. They seem to provide less comfort, require more repairs, and don’t last as long. Still, in a moderate or hot area (like Phoenix) where you need an a/c unit anyway a heat pump will be initially cheaper than a separate a/c unit and gas furnace. It won’t be as comfortable in real cold weather, but… [...]

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Wasps in the house cause odor

Question:

I am trying to sell a house that has been empty all summer. Wasps got into it and when I found them, there were about 1000 dead wasps inside. I sprayed with Raid wasp & hornet killer and eventually killed them,. I vacuumed them all up and got rid of the dead bodies. I filled the holes into which they had gotten. My problem is now there is an acrid odor whidh is a cross between dead body and acid pervading the house. I turned on the gas furnace last week and the next day the odor was MUCH worse. I sprinkled odor neutralizing powder on the carpets (3 boxes) waited 30 minutes and vacuumed it up. I came back today and now I have the same two smells as before and a perfume added on top of them – despite the label saying this was a "neutral odor" Any ideas? What causes the odor. Will cleaning the carpet/walls get rid of it? or, do I have to just wait for it to go away?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I am trying to sell a house that has been empty all summer. Wasps got > into it and when I found them, there were about 1000 dead wasps > inside. I sprayed with Raid wasp & hornet killer and eventually > killed them,. I vacuumed them all up and got rid of the dead bodies. > I filled the holes into which they had gotten. My problem is now > there is an acrid odor whidh is a cross between dead body and acid > pervading the house. I turned on the gas furnace last week and the > next day the odor was MUCH worse. > I sprinkled odor neutralizing powder on the carpets (3 boxes) waited > 30 minutes and vacuumed it up. > I came back today and now I have the same two smells as before and a > perfume added on top of them – despite the label saying this was a > "neutral odor" > Any ideas? What causes the odor. Will cleaning the carpet/walls get > rid of it? or, do I have to just wait for it to go away?

I’ve been dealing with some organic odors lately (not wasp corpses). It may take a full season for the odor to go away. Given the immediate need for action, I think I would try an ozone generator. Fire damage firms use them to get rid of smoke odor. If you can’t rent one locally, do a web search and buy one. You cannot occupy the house while ozone is in there… Jim

Response:

"Lawrence Smith" wrote … > I am trying to sell a house that has been empty all summer. Wasps got > into it and when I found them, there were about 1000 dead wasps > inside. I sprayed with Raid wasp & hornet killer and eventually > killed them… My problem is now there is an acrid odor whidh is a cross > between dead body and acid pervading the house.

Part of your problem might be the Raid. Many of those bug killers (and all the "fogger" types" have an oil base to help them adhere, (and to create fog) The oil sticks to everyting and creates a smell, as well as absorbing some odour. We had the same problem in the walk-up attic of our old house, although the smell was more acid and chemically than stinky.

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