Question:
Aren’t hot water heaters sized, more or less, to the number of bathrooms? Double the number of baths, and I would think that one might need additional hot water heater capacity. Adding another hot water heater, right near the additional bath, might be a reasonable way to add that capacity. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I would also question the need for another hot water heater. Do you have > problems with enough hot water already? If not then unless you anticipate > an increase in usage, this may not be required, just some additional > plumbing.
Response:
> Aren’t hot water heaters sized, more or less, to the number of > bathrooms? Double the number of baths, and I would think that > one might need additional hot water heater capacity. Adding > another hot water heater, right near the additional bath, might > be a reasonable way to add that capacity.
Well, yes… however, not knowing what is initially installed, the capacity and recovery rate, can we say for sure? Given that there is no increase in family size, I questioned their current and anticipated future use, and the OP explained his rationale. Reasonable. BTW, the OP will also see an increase in energy consumption and utility bills with the added tank; people tend to use up extra capacity plus the additional standby losses of another tank. Then of course you need room for it, the gas line, venting, etc. Personally, if possible, I’d just increase the size of the original tank or the burner capacity, and add a new hot water line. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I would also question the need for another hot water heater. Do you have > problems with enough hot water already? If not then unless you anticipate > an increase in usage, this may not be required, just some additional > plumbing.
Response:
You already have the gas line, consider installing a Rinnai heater. I have no connection to them but I install them and they are virtually trouble free. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > We’ll be moving up to our attic soon (gotta give the girls their own bedroom for > our sanity!) and we have to make a final decision for heating. Ceiling ductwork > is already in place for the a/c. The contractor bought a 45K BTU gas furnace > for the heat (gas pipe has already been run for a dedicated hot water heater for > the bathroom) but hasn’t installed it yet. > I talked to one of the area’s top a/c guys (not using him for this job, but he > has a reputation for high quality work) and he said to go with electric > baseboard heat. Said that the unit is overkill and that "they don’t make a > furnace small enough for just an attic". Said that it would be hard to regulate > the temp properly and the furnace would have to cycle on and off too frequently > to attempt to maintain a constant temperature. Also that as a result of this > constant cycling the furnace wouldn’t last longer than 5 years or so. He > claimed that since the attic is well-insulated, and we’ll get some heat from > lower floors, that baseboard is our best bet (probably need two strips for the > main room and one for the bathroom). House is in North-central New Jersey. > About 400 square feet, 9 foot ceiling average. > Any comments much appreciated! > jon
Response:
We’ll be moving up to our attic soon (gotta give the girls their own bedroom for our sanity!) and we have to make a final decision for heating. Ceiling ductwork is already in place for the a/c. The contractor bought a 45K BTU gas furnace for the heat (gas pipe has already been run for a dedicated hot water heater for the bathroom) but hasn’t installed it yet. I talked to one of the area’s top a/c guys (not using him for this job, but he has a reputation for high quality work) and he said to go with electric baseboard heat. Said that the unit is overkill and that "they don’t make a furnace small enough for just an attic". Said that it would be hard to regulate the temp properly and the furnace would have to cycle on and off too frequently to attempt to maintain a constant temperature. Also that as a result of this constant cycling the furnace wouldn’t last longer than 5 years or so. He claimed that since the attic is well-insulated, and we’ll get some heat from lower floors, that baseboard is our best bet (probably need two strips for the main room and one for the bathroom). House is in North-central New Jersey. About 400 square feet, 9 foot ceiling average. Any comments much appreciated! jon — zw
Response:
If it is already set up for A/C, installing a heat pump instead comes to mind. A heat pump can heat as well as cool, and I am sure you could get one of the right size for the given living space. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Any comments much appreciated!
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We’ll be moving up to our attic soon (gotta give the girls their own bedroom for > our sanity!) and we have to make a final decision for heating. Ceiling ductwork > is already in place for the a/c. The contractor bought a 45K BTU gas furnace > for the heat (gas pipe has already been run for a dedicated hot water heater for > the bathroom) but hasn’t installed it yet. > I talked to one of the area’s top a/c guys (not using him for this job, but he > has a reputation for high quality work) and he said to go with electric > baseboard heat. Said that the unit is overkill and that "they don’t make a > furnace small enough for just an attic". Said that it would be hard to regulate > the temp properly and the furnace would have to cycle on and off too frequently > to attempt to maintain a constant temperature. Also that as a result of this > constant cycling the furnace wouldn’t last longer than 5 years or so. He > claimed that since the attic is well-insulated, and we’ll get some heat from > lower floors, that baseboard is our best bet (probably need two strips for the > main room and one for the bathroom). House is in North-central New Jersey. > About 400 square feet, 9 foot ceiling average. > Any comments much appreciated! > jon
Hi jon, Sounds like a 45k BTU furnace is indeed overkill for your attic space. Depending on your climate, and level of building insulation, you probably require between 2 and 3 kw of electric baseboard. This would provide you with necessary back up heat on those very cold days. You will need to consider your existing electrical service… can it handle the additional circuits and demand? I would also question the need for another hot water heater. Do you have problems with enough hot water already? If not then unless you anticipate an increase in usage, this may not be required, just some additional plumbing. HTH, Duane — Duane M. Tilden PEng(BC) Crown Mechanical Consulting
Response:
> If it is already set up for A/C, installing a heat pump > instead comes to mind. A heat pump can heat as well as > cool, and I am sure you could get one of the right size > for the given living space. > Any comments much appreciated!
The difficulty with relying on a heat pump to heat, is that on those really cold days when you need the heat the most, the units cannot provide the necessary heat (unless water source or geothermal). This means that some form of back up will be required, usually electric. So, why not just go electric bb initially? Now, if the OP was planning on replacing his whole heating system with a HP system, then this would make more sense. But not for one 400 sf room, IMO. Duane — Duane M. Tilden PEng(BC) Crown Mechanical Consulting
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If it is already set up for A/C, installing a heat pump > instead comes to mind. A heat pump can heat as well as > cool, and I am sure you could get one of the right size > for the given living space. > > Any comments much appreciated! >The difficulty with relying on a heat pump to heat, is that on those really >cold days when you need the heat the most, the units cannot provide the >necessary heat (unless water source or geothermal). >This means that some form of back up will be required, usually electric. >So, why not just go electric bb initially? >Now, if the OP was planning on replacing his whole heating system with a HP >system, then this would make more sense. But not for one 400 sf room, IMO. >Duane
FWIW, I agree about elec heat. A thought: Depending on how you plan to arrange the furniture, you might consider a couple of oil-filled elec radiators. They are not a permanent install. I am putting an apt in my basement and the plans call for elec baseboards. However, I realized that if a tenant wants to put a couch along the main front wall, it would cover the 8′ baseboard heater in the plans. So, I had the electrician run 10/3 wiring instead of 10/2 so that I can easily convert to 2 120v circuits and plug in 2-3 1500 watt radiators. Much more friendly for furniture. If that is not a problem for the OP, then I baseboard resistance seems the best way to go for such a small space. BTW, I looked for a heatpump for such a small space, the apt, and all I could find small enough were trhough-the-wall hotel/motel units or mini-split ductless systems.
Response:
>Hi jon, >Sounds like a 45k BTU furnace is indeed overkill for your attic space. >Depending on your climate, and level of building insulation, you probably >require between 2 and 3 kw of electric baseboard. This would provide you >with necessary back up heat on those very cold days. You will need to >consider your existing electrical service… can it handle the additional >circuits and demand? >I would also question the need for another hot water heater. Do you have >problems with enough hot water already? If not then unless you anticipate >an increase in usage, this may not be required, just some additional >plumbing.
Thanks for the info, Duane (and everyone else as well!) We have a new subpanel in the attic so the circuits aren’t a problem. I forgot to mention one important point: arguments over the temperature! My wife likes it cold and she usually wins (although I refuse to have to wear gloves in the house!) so I don’t see us spending megabucks on the electric bill for the heating. The hot water heater is really more a luxury item than a necessity. But as the kids get older and take longer showers, it may prove to be the latter! jon — zw
Response:
Well, he already has all the duct work installed, and everything needed to support the A/C. Installing electric bb would require some major re-wiring, and in each room. One would need to run 240v for the bb units themselves, and possibly 240v to another wall to support a thermostat. Again, for each room. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > So, why not just go electric bb initially?
Response:
> Aren’t hot water heaters sized, more or less, to the number of > bathrooms? Double the number of baths, and I would think that > one might need additional hot water heater capacity. Adding > another hot water heater, right near the additional bath, might > be a reasonable way to add that capacity.
Well, yes… however, not knowing what is initially installed, the capacity and recovery rate, can we say for sure? Given that there is no increase in family size, I questioned their current and anticipated future use, and the OP explained his rationale. Reasonable. BTW, the OP will also see an increase in energy consumption and utility bills with the added tank; people tend to use up extra capacity plus the additional standby losses of another tank. Then of course you need room for it, the gas line, venting, etc. Personally, if possible, I’d just increase the size of the original tank or the burner capacity, and add a new hot water line. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I would also question the need for another hot water heater. Do you have > problems with enough hot water already? If not then unless you anticipate > an increase in usage, this may not be required, just some additional > plumbing.
Response:
You already have the gas line, consider installing a Rinnai heater. I have no connection to them but I install them and they are virtually trouble free. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > We’ll be moving up to our attic soon (gotta give the girls their own bedroom for > our sanity!) and we have to make a final decision for heating. Ceiling ductwork > is already in place for the a/c. The contractor bought a 45K BTU gas furnace > for the heat (gas pipe has already been run for a dedicated hot water heater for > the bathroom) but hasn’t installed it yet. > I talked to one of the area’s top a/c guys (not using him for this job, but he > has a reputation for high quality work) and he said to go with electric > baseboard heat. Said that the unit is overkill and that "they don’t make a > furnace small enough for just an attic". Said that it would be hard to regulate > the temp properly and the furnace would have to cycle on and off too frequently > to attempt to maintain a constant temperature. Also that as a result of this > constant cycling the furnace wouldn’t last longer than 5 years or so. He > claimed that since the attic is well-insulated, and we’ll get some heat from > lower floors, that baseboard is our best bet (probably need two strips for the > main room and one for the bathroom). House is in North-central New Jersey. > About 400 square feet, 9 foot ceiling average. > Any comments much appreciated! > jon
Response:
Well, he already has all the duct work installed, and everything needed to support the A/C. Installing electric bb would require some major re-wiring, and in each room. One would need to run 240v for the bb units themselves, and possibly 240v to another wall to support a thermostat. Again, for each room. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > So, why not just go electric bb initially?
Response:
Aren’t hot water heaters sized, more or less, to the number of bathrooms? Double the number of baths, and I would think that one might need additional hot water heater capacity. Adding another hot water heater, right near the additional bath, might be a reasonable way to add that capacity. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I would also question the need for another hot water heater. Do you have > problems with enough hot water already? If not then unless you anticipate > an increase in usage, this may not be required, just some additional > plumbing.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [snip] > ceiling mounted registers are a terrible way to heat a space. > If the system is not oversized, registers are sized/positioned right > and the correct diffusers are used, ceiling registers work just fine > for both heating and cooling. > If ceiling registers don’t work well, one of the above is usually to > blame. > — > Sam > Undo every "not" in my email address > Outlook users: Don’t add me to your address book
Hehehe, Sure sounds "iffy" to me… Duane
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> This is exactly what ductless split systems are made for. they >> also make heat pump models and are very efficient. >Yep. And even in NJ, the majority of the heating season you can heat >with a HP for 2-3 times less than the cost of electric resistance >baseboard heat. The rest of the time, a HP will switch to resistance >backup heat that will cost the same as baseboard heat. >Since the OP is getting A/C, they might as well get a minisplit HP that >will heat and cool and installation cost would be no more than for A/C >only. > While I had already posted before I saw HvacTech2’s post and I agree with
him, when I was shopping for a > mini-split ductless, I had trouble finding ones with integrated backup
resistence heat. GE, Friedrich > don’t have it, as best I could discover. I think Sanyo has it, but it is
by far the most expensive. If > money is a concern, then baseboard resistance heat can be a better backup
with a lower-cost hp. FYI. Yes, the baseboard can still operate as back-up for a hp if the OP should choose to go this route. From an operational standpoint, the concept of heat rising to the top floor and "good insulation" were noted. These are valid concepts, and since the OP introduced them I saw no need to discount them. So, why spend the extra money, unless the difference in cost between the two systems is small. From an operational and comfort point of view, ceiling mounted registers are a terrible way to heat a space. And anyone reading this please bear in mind that I also advocate the use of heat pumps… however, in this case I am convinced otherwise. Duane — Duane M. Tilden PEng(BC) Crown Mechanical Consulting
Response:
>Hi jon, >Sounds like a 45k BTU furnace is indeed overkill for your attic space. >Depending on your climate, and level of building insulation, you probably >require between 2 and 3 kw of electric baseboard. This would provide you >with necessary back up heat on those very cold days. You will need to >consider your existing electrical service… can it handle the additional >circuits and demand? >I would also question the need for another hot water heater. Do you have >problems with enough hot water already? If not then unless you anticipate >an increase in usage, this may not be required, just some additional >plumbing.
Thanks for the info, Duane (and everyone else as well!) We have a new subpanel in the attic so the circuits aren’t a problem. I forgot to mention one important point: arguments over the temperature! My wife likes it cold and she usually wins (although I refuse to have to wear gloves in the house!) so I don’t see us spending megabucks on the electric bill for the heating. The hot water heater is really more a luxury item than a necessity. But as the kids get older and take longer showers, it may prove to be the latter! jon — zw
Response:
>> This is exactly what ductless split systems are made for. they > also make heat pump models and are very efficient. >Yep. And even in NJ, the majority of the heating season you can heat >with a HP for 2-3 times less than the cost of electric resistance >baseboard heat. The rest of the time, a HP will switch to resistance >backup heat that will cost the same as baseboard heat. >Since the OP is getting A/C, they might as well get a minisplit HP that >will heat and cool and installation cost would be no more than for A/C >only.
While I had already posted before I saw HvacTech2’s post and I agree with him, when I was shopping for a mini-split ductless, I had trouble finding ones with integrated backup resistence heat. GE, Friedrich don’t have it, as best I could discover. I think Sanyo has it, but it is by far the most expensive. If money is a concern, then baseboard resistance heat can be a better backup with a lower-cost hp. FYI.
Response:
Hi Walt, hope you are having a nice day On 29-Apr-02 At About 02:29:52, Walt wrote to All W> If it is already set up for A/C, installing a heat pump instead comes W> to mind. A heat pump can heat as well as cool, and I am sure you W> could get one of the right size for the given living space. This is exactly what ductless split systems are made for. they also make heat pump models and are very efficient. -=> HvacTech2 <=- .. Here’s John Bobbitt with a few words about Crazy Glue. ___ TagDude 0.92
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