Question:
> We own a 3,000+ sq foot home in the Denver suburbs and have been > considering buying a tankless hot water heater (natural gas). On paper > they sound like a no brainer. But the more I research it the more > leery I have become. Issues such as water flow, noise, maintenance etc > are starting to concern me. The unit I’ve got my eye on is the > Aquastar 240FX at Home Depot. This thing has more BTU’s than our > central gas furnace. I don’t want to think I’m at Denver International > Airport each time it comes on. We are also concerned about standing in > the shower with virtually no water pressure because that is all the > unit is letting out. If any of you have advice or information to pass > on it would be greatly appreciated. Maybe the old fashioned tank full > of ready to use hot water still is the way to go. > Thanks, > Don
You are right to give it a second thought, Don. There are a number of important considerations as I found when I went through the evaluation process for a new house which is now under construction. Read an article entitled, "What’s the Big Deal About Tankless Water Heaters?". It’s available as a download from a maker of tank type water heaters, State Industries ( http://www.stateind.com/ ). The article is obviously biased toward tank heaters, but it brings out the comparison factors and there’s plenty of interesting data. I ended up with two gas high-efficiency tank heaters (and short pipe runs) in a 2700 sq.ft. house for three reasons. First, they’re much simpler. A gas or electric tank heater is easy to fix and, even better, there’s not much to go wrong. Tankless heaters are complicated. Some have three modulation controls (air, gas and water). Second, in my area, the city water supply has been known to fail — not often; but 3-4 times over the last 15 years. It’s been handy to have 40-50 gallons of water in the tank for emergency use. Third, the energy savings for tankless heaters are not compelling. Energy cost savings, if any, take years. Terry McGowan
Response:
>Therefore, why change, just to follow a fad, or brag about >how you got one before the neighbors did….
I agree completely. Having used tankless heaters in Europe, they are not by any means better than tank type heaters. In fact, one of the reasons they are used in Europe is to reduce the amount of plumbing required for retrofit applications like listed (historic) buildings. Generally not a problem in the US… Someone in this newsgroup sent me a PDF whitepaper on tank vs tankless heaters a few months ago that was excellent. I’m sure he won’t mind my forwarding it. If you can handle 1MB email attachments, send me a note. — "…but I’ll be alright as long as there’s light from a neon moon."
Response:
> I ended up with two gas high-efficiency tank heaters (and short pipe > runs) in a 2700 sq.ft. house for three reasons.
Just for my own education, why did you get two heaters instead of one larger one? Minimize run length? Where did you mount the tanks – internal to the house, garage? thanks! John
Response:
Don Beck writes: > The unit I’ve got my eye on is the > Aquastar 240FX at Home Depot.
That’s actually a Japanese unit. Ask yourself why these things have never been made in the USA. Do you really want a computerized jet engine 165 KBTU/hr power plant for $1000+ (two year warranty) or the usual $150 tank (lifetime warranty)?
Response:
Yes, the main issue was run length. We ended up using one tank for the kitchen/laundry/lav. The hot water run there is a maximum of 15 feet through insulated pipe in a slab. The second tank feeds two bathrooms with a maximum run length of 10 feet. We’re planning to set the temperature of that tank significantly lower. Without the second tank, there would have been a pipe run of about 40 feet. Both tanks are internal to the house and within the insulated space and both have power venting so as not to use house air. Terry McGowan
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I ended up with two gas high-efficiency tank heaters (and short pipe > runs) in a 2700 sq.ft. house for three reasons. > Just for my own education, why did you get two heaters instead of one > larger one? Minimize run length? Where did you mount the tanks – > internal to the house, garage? > thanks! > John
Response:
> Yes, the main issue was run length. We ended up using one tank for the > kitchen/laundry/lav. The hot water run there is a maximum of 15 feet > through insulated pipe in a slab. The second tank feeds two bathrooms with > a maximum run length of 10 feet. We’re planning to set the temperature of > that tank significantly lower. Without the second tank, there would have > been a pipe run of about 40 feet. Both tanks are internal to the house and > within the insulated space and both have power venting so as not to use > house air.
Ahhh – hadn’t thought about setting diferent temperatures – that makes a lot of sense from a safety and cleaning point of view. thanks! john
Response:
>>We own a 3,000+ sq foot home in the Denver suburbs and have been >considering buying a tankless hot water heater (natural gas). On paper >they sound like a no brainer.
Installing one of those is a "tankless job". OK, everyone can groan.
Response:
> Installing one of those is a "tankless job". > OK, everyone can groan.
Someone had to lighten the thread 
Response:
We own a 3,000+ sq foot home in the Denver suburbs and have been considering buying a tankless hot water heater (natural gas). On paper they sound like a no brainer. But the more I research it the more leery I have become. Issues such as water flow, noise, maintenance etc are starting to concern me. The unit I’ve got my eye on is the Aquastar 240FX at Home Depot. This thing has more BTU’s than our central gas furnace. I don’t want to think I’m at Denver International Airport each time it comes on. We are also concerned about standing in the shower with virtually no water pressure because that is all the unit is letting out. If any of you have advice or information to pass on it would be greatly appreciated. Maybe the old fashioned tank full of ready to use hot water still is the way to go. Thanks, Don
Response:
>We own a 3,000+ sq foot home in the Denver suburbs and have been >considering buying a tankless hot water heater (natural gas). On paper >they sound like a no brainer. But …,cut>… Maybe the old fashioned tank full >of ready to use hot water still is the way to go.
If you have room for the tank, I don’t see it as anywhere near a no-brainer. If you are worried about standby loss, get an add-on external insulating blanket for the tank. Yes the tankless have their fanatical zealots. But there are indeed downsides in use, esp. w/widely varying flow rates. I just don’t see that elimination of stanby loss is a big enough incentive to make it a no-brainer. For a central whole-house unit, there is also no advantage over a central tank, in terms of how long it takes the hot water to get to each point of use. Therefore, why change, just to follow a fad, or brag about how you got one before the neighbors did…. -v.
Response:
> So in your opinion, US consumers are so stupid that they pay more for > something that is bigger and less efficient. That there is not one US > business with the brains to make a profit on something better and cheaper. > And you think that is somehow convenient? And that we need to be forced by > the government to be economical? Contemptible.
Of course US consumers wouldn’t pay for something that is bigger and less efficent. That is why no on buys SUVs. > Learn some thermodyamics. Big, slow, cool, buffered (conventional w/h) > always beats small, hot, fast, on-demand (instant heaters) as regards > energy efficiency. Always.
If this is true then why has my friend’s gas bill dropped by nearly 40% since I installed a tankless hot water heater in her house?
Response:
Alan McKay writes: > http://tinyurl.com/1i1t
That page is pure bunk from the first sentence.
Response:
> That page is pure bunk from the first sentence.
Post something other than wild conjecture to refute it.
Response:
>>We own a 3,000+ sq foot home in the Denver suburbs and have been >considering buying a tankless hot water heater (natural gas). On paper >they sound like a no brainer.
Installing one of those is a "tankless job". OK, everyone can groan.
Response:
> Installing one of those is a "tankless job". > OK, everyone can groan.
Someone had to lighten the thread
Response:
> I’ve changed my mind on buying a tankless hot water heater but your > post is interesting. I’m ok with products made outside the USA. All > three of our cars are either from Europe or Japan. I’ve never seen a > hot water heater with a lifetime warranty. Can you tell me which brand > has this? > Don
This is a bit misleading. Some may have a lifetime warantee on THE TANK but other components such as the heating elements only have a 1-2 year warantee. Since the tankless unit has a two year warantee and does not have a tank they effectively have the same warantee. I installed a tankless heater a year ago for a friend. She is very happy with it and has never had a single problem with the heater, even though her house has problems with low water pressure. As part of our basement remodeling next year I will be replacing our old hot water heater with a tankless one, most likely the same Aquastar unit that I installed for my friend.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So in your opinion, US consumers are so stupid that they pay more for > something that is bigger and less efficient. > Check out the boom in SUVs. You have not a shred of evidence to > back your points, just as I do not. Pot, kettle, black. > Until very recently the US never made front-load washing mashines, > either, yet they are clearly far superior to top loads in every way possible > including energy efficiency. > Anyway, you won’t hear from me again on the matter. But I will > turn your question back on you, and no it is not rhetorical, I’d like > an answer. Instead of dancing around, tell me "why these things > have never been made in the USA" > cheers, > -Alan
Actually, consumer front-loaders were made in the 50’s and 60’s.. Comercial front-loaders have been available ALL the time since. (just go have a look at your local landromat.). Top-loaders took over the marketplace because there were cheaper to make.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Alan McKay writes: > Until very recently the US never made front-load washing mashines, > either, yet they are clearly far superior to top loads in every way > possible including energy efficiency. > Other than costing 5x as much. > Ah, the myth of Euro-goodness. As persistent as electric cars. > Instead of dancing around, tell me "why these things > have never been made in the USA" > I suppose, among other things, that they cost more, do less, and won’t > last. More to buy, more to operate, more to maintain, etc. etc.
Where electricity is cheap, people do NOT use other sources Quebec is a lot colder that Minnesota, but because of their IMMENSE hydro-electrical production capacity, a large number of houses are heated with electricity througout the winter.. If you want to get an idea of their capacity, the LG2 LaGrande river # 2 dam), has a reservoir that can be seen from space and it’s watershed occupies a space that is bigger that twice New York State.. The planned capacities were LG 1, 10 groups of 91 MW LG 2, 16 groups of 333 MW LG 3, 10 groups of 192 MW LG 4, 8 groups of 254 MW With that kind of capacity, their electricity is so abundant and cheap that they can use lightbulbs to heat their houses in winter and still pay less than most Americans.. The only reason that waterless cost more is that the demand is low.. As to doing less and costing more to operate and maintain, I think you need to crunch some numbers to support that claim..
Response:
> So in your opinion, US consumers are so stupid that they pay more for > something that is bigger and less efficient.
Check out the boom in SUVs. You have not a shred of evidence to back your points, just as I do not. Pot, kettle, black. Until very recently the US never made front-load washing mashines, either, yet they are clearly far superior to top loads in every way possible including energy efficiency. Anyway, you won’t hear from me again on the matter. But I will turn your question back on you, and no it is not rhetorical, I’d like an answer. Instead of dancing around, tell me "why these things have never been made in the USA" cheers, -Alan
Response:
Until the US Government mandated low flow faucets there were few "tankless" heaters that could keep up with the demand and draw an acceptable amount of current.
Response:
Alan McKay writes: > Until very recently the US never made front-load washing mashines, > either, yet they are clearly far superior to top loads in every way > possible including energy efficiency.
Other than costing 5x as much. Ah, the myth of Euro-goodness. As persistent as electric cars. > Instead of dancing around, tell me "why these things > have never been made in the USA"
I suppose, among other things, that they cost more, do less, and won’t last. More to buy, more to operate, more to maintain, etc. etc.
Response:
For those who actually want to educate themselves on the matter rather than spout groundless conjecture : http://tinyurl.com/1i1t cheers, -Alan
Response:
I’m willing to bet that’s it’s a Rinnai. Fantastic units. I’ve been installing their heating units in for years. We’ve installed a few of their water heaters. If they’re anything like their heaters, you can expect many trouble free years of service. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->That’s actually a Japanese unit. Ask yourself why these things have never >been made in the USA. Do you really want a computerized jet engine 165 >KBTU/hr power plant for $1000+ (two year warranty) or the usual $150 tank >(lifetime warranty)? > I’ve changed my mind on buying a tankless hot water heater but your > post is interesting. I’m ok with products made outside the USA. All > three of our cars are either from Europe or Japan. I’ve never seen a > hot water heater with a lifetime warranty. Can you tell me which brand > has this? > Don
Response:
> Yes, the main issue was run length. We ended up using one tank for the > kitchen/laundry/lav. The hot water run there is a maximum of 15 feet > through insulated pipe in a slab. The second tank feeds two bathrooms with > a maximum run length of 10 feet. We’re planning to set the temperature of > that tank significantly lower. Without the second tank, there would have > been a pipe run of about 40 feet. Both tanks are internal to the house and > within the insulated space and both have power venting so as not to use > house air.
Ahhh – hadn’t thought about setting diferent temperatures – that makes a lot of sense from a safety and cleaning point of view. thanks! john
Response:
Alan McKay writes: > – USA is not the least bit concerned about energy efficiency
Oh, so all those USA-made water heaters on the aisle at Home Depot are sold without any regard to efficiency? No claims or advertising about what’s efficient? It appears to me they are chiefly sold on (1) cost/life, and (2) energy efficiency. > Keeping water hot in your water heater is not at all an economical way > to do things. It is a convenient way of doing it and nothing more. And > since there are no regulations in the US to force people to be economical > and save energy, convenience wins every time …
So in your opinion, US consumers are so stupid that they pay more for something that is bigger and less efficient. That there is not one US business with the brains to make a profit on something better and cheaper. And you think that is somehow convenient? And that we need to be forced by the government to be economical? Contemptible. Learn some thermodyamics. Big, slow, cool, buffered (conventional w/h) always beats small, hot, fast, on-demand (instant heaters) as regards energy efficiency. Always.
Response:
Don Beck writes: > I’m ok with products made outside the USA.
Of course. Just consider what it is about these things that they have not been made in the USA at all? Answer that and you’ll understand why they’re not economical.
Response:
> Of course. Just consider what it is about these things that they have not > been made in the USA at all? Answer that and you’ll understand why they’re > not economical.
That has to be about the biggest knee-jerk thing I have ever heard. Do you you even have a clue what you are talking about? Several reason why they are not popular in the US : – size doesn’t matter – Japan (and Germany where these are also popular) have limited space per person. These take up very little room compared to a huge hot water tank. – USA is not the least bit concerned about energy efficiency Keeping water hot in your water heater is not at all an economical way to do things. It is a convenient way of doing it and nothing more. And since there are no regulations in the US to force people to be economical and save energy, convenience wins every time … cheers, -Alan
Response:
Yes, the main issue was run length. We ended up using one tank for the kitchen/laundry/lav. The hot water run there is a maximum of 15 feet through insulated pipe in a slab. The second tank feeds two bathrooms with a maximum run length of 10 feet. We’re planning to set the temperature of that tank significantly lower. Without the second tank, there would have been a pipe run of about 40 feet. Both tanks are internal to the house and within the insulated space and both have power venting so as not to use house air. Terry McGowan
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I ended up with two gas high-efficiency tank heaters (and short pipe > runs) in a 2700 sq.ft. house for three reasons. > Just for my own education, why did you get two heaters instead of one > larger one? Minimize run length? Where did you mount the tanks – > internal to the house, garage? > thanks! > John
Response:
>That’s actually a Japanese unit. Ask yourself why these things have never >been made in the USA. Do you really want a computerized jet engine 165 >KBTU/hr power plant for $1000+ (two year warranty) or the usual $150 tank >(lifetime warranty)?
I’ve changed my mind on buying a tankless hot water heater but your post is interesting. I’m ok with products made outside the USA. All three of our cars are either from Europe or Japan. I’ve never seen a hot water heater with a lifetime warranty. Can you tell me which brand has this? Don
Response:
>Therefore, why change, just to follow a fad, or brag about >how you got one before the neighbors did….
I agree completely. Having used tankless heaters in Europe, they are not by any means better than tank type heaters. In fact, one of the reasons they are used in Europe is to reduce the amount of plumbing required for retrofit applications like listed (historic) buildings. Generally not a problem in the US… Someone in this newsgroup sent me a PDF whitepaper on tank vs tankless heaters a few months ago that was excellent. I’m sure he won’t mind my forwarding it. If you can handle 1MB email attachments, send me a note. — "…but I’ll be alright as long as there’s light from a neon moon."
Response:
> I ended up with two gas high-efficiency tank heaters (and short pipe > runs) in a 2700 sq.ft. house for three reasons.
Just for my own education, why did you get two heaters instead of one larger one? Minimize run length? Where did you mount the tanks – internal to the house, garage? thanks! John
Response:
Don Beck writes: > The unit I’ve got my eye on is the > Aquastar 240FX at Home Depot.
That’s actually a Japanese unit. Ask yourself why these things have never been made in the USA. Do you really want a computerized jet engine 165 KBTU/hr power plant for $1000+ (two year warranty) or the usual $150 tank (lifetime warranty)?
Response:
We own a 3,000+ sq foot home in the Denver suburbs and have been considering buying a tankless hot water heater (natural gas). On paper they sound like a no brainer. But the more I research it the more leery I have become. Issues such as water flow, noise, maintenance etc are starting to concern me. The unit I’ve got my eye on is the Aquastar 240FX at Home Depot. This thing has more BTU’s than our central gas furnace. I don’t want to think I’m at Denver International Airport each time it comes on. We are also concerned about standing in the shower with virtually no water pressure because that is all the unit is letting out. If any of you have advice or information to pass on it would be greatly appreciated. Maybe the old fashioned tank full of ready to use hot water still is the way to go. Thanks, Don
Response:
>We own a 3,000+ sq foot home in the Denver suburbs and have been >considering buying a tankless hot water heater (natural gas). On paper >they sound like a no brainer. But …,cut>… Maybe the old fashioned tank full >of ready to use hot water still is the way to go.
If you have room for the tank, I don’t see it as anywhere near a no-brainer. If you are worried about standby loss, get an add-on external insulating blanket for the tank. Yes the tankless have their fanatical zealots. But there are indeed downsides in use, esp. w/widely varying flow rates. I just don’t see that elimination of stanby loss is a big enough incentive to make it a no-brainer. For a central whole-house unit, there is also no advantage over a central tank, in terms of how long it takes the hot water to get to each point of use. Therefore, why change, just to follow a fad, or brag about how you got one before the neighbors did…. -v.
Response:
> We own a 3,000+ sq foot home in the Denver suburbs and have been > considering buying a tankless hot water heater (natural gas). On paper > they sound like a no brainer. But the more I research it the more > leery I have become. Issues such as water flow, noise, maintenance etc > are starting to concern me. The unit I’ve got my eye on is the > Aquastar 240FX at Home Depot. This thing has more BTU’s than our > central gas furnace. I don’t want to think I’m at Denver International > Airport each time it comes on. We are also concerned about standing in > the shower with virtually no water pressure because that is all the > unit is letting out. If any of you have advice or information to pass > on it would be greatly appreciated. Maybe the old fashioned tank full > of ready to use hot water still is the way to go. > Thanks, > Don
You are right to give it a second thought, Don. There are a number of important considerations as I found when I went through the evaluation process for a new house which is now under construction. Read an article entitled, "What’s the Big Deal About Tankless Water Heaters?". It’s available as a download from a maker of tank type water heaters, State Industries ( http://www.stateind.com/ ). The article is obviously biased toward tank heaters, but it brings out the comparison factors and there’s plenty of interesting data. I ended up with two gas high-efficiency tank heaters (and short pipe runs) in a 2700 sq.ft. house for three reasons. First, they’re much simpler. A gas or electric tank heater is easy to fix and, even better, there’s not much to go wrong. Tankless heaters are complicated. Some have three modulation controls (air, gas and water). Second, in my area, the city water supply has been known to fail — not often; but 3-4 times over the last 15 years. It’s been handy to have 40-50 gallons of water in the tank for emergency use. Third, the energy savings for tankless heaters are not compelling. Energy cost savings, if any, take years. Terry McGowan
Response:
> So in your opinion, US consumers are so stupid that they pay more for > something that is bigger and less efficient. That there is not one US > business with the brains to make a profit on something better and cheaper. > And you think that is somehow convenient? And that we need to be forced by > the government to be economical? Contemptible.
Of course US consumers wouldn’t pay for something that is bigger and less efficent. That is why no on buys SUVs. > Learn some thermodyamics. Big, slow, cool, buffered (conventional w/h) > always beats small, hot, fast, on-demand (instant heaters) as regards > energy efficiency. Always.
If this is true then why has my friend’s gas bill dropped by nearly 40% since I installed a tankless hot water heater in her house?
Response:
Alan McKay writes: > http://tinyurl.com/1i1t
That page is pure bunk from the first sentence.
Response:
> That page is pure bunk from the first sentence.
Post something other than wild conjecture to refute it.
Response:
>>We own a 3,000+ sq foot home in the Denver suburbs and have been >considering buying a tankless hot water heater (natural gas). On paper >they sound like a no brainer.
Installing one of those is a "tankless job". OK, everyone can groan.
Response:
> Installing one of those is a "tankless job". > OK, everyone can groan.
Someone had to lighten the thread
Response:
> I’ve changed my mind on buying a tankless hot water heater but your > post is interesting. I’m ok with products made outside the USA. All > three of our cars are either from Europe or Japan. I’ve never seen a > hot water heater with a lifetime warranty. Can you tell me which brand > has this? > Don
This is a bit misleading. Some may have a lifetime warantee on THE TANK but other components such as the heating elements only have a 1-2 year warantee. Since the tankless unit has a two year warantee and does not have a tank they effectively have the same warantee. I installed a tankless heater a year ago for a friend. She is very happy with it and has never had a single problem with the heater, even though her house has problems with low water pressure. As part of our basement remodeling next year I will be replacing our old hot water heater with a tankless one, most likely the same Aquastar unit that I installed for my friend.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So in your opinion, US consumers are so stupid that they pay more for > something that is bigger and less efficient. > Check out the boom in SUVs. You have not a shred of evidence to > back your points, just as I do not. Pot, kettle, black. > Until very recently the US never made front-load washing mashines, > either, yet they are clearly far superior to top loads in every way possible > including energy efficiency. > Anyway, you won’t hear from me again on the matter. But I will > turn your question back on you, and no it is not rhetorical, I’d like > an answer. Instead of dancing around, tell me "why these things > have never been made in the USA" > cheers, > -Alan
Actually, consumer front-loaders were made in the 50’s and 60’s.. Comercial front-loaders have been available ALL the time since. (just go have a look at your local landromat.). Top-loaders took over the marketplace because there were cheaper to make.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Alan McKay writes: > Until very recently the US never made front-load washing mashines, > either, yet they are clearly far superior to top loads in every way > possible including energy efficiency. > Other than costing 5x as much. > Ah, the myth of Euro-goodness. As persistent as electric cars. > Instead of dancing around, tell me "why these things > have never been made in the USA" > I suppose, among other things, that they cost more, do less, and won’t > last. More to buy, more to operate, more to maintain, etc. etc.
Where electricity is cheap, people do NOT use other sources Quebec is a lot colder that Minnesota, but because of their IMMENSE hydro-electrical production capacity, a large number of houses are heated with electricity througout the winter.. If you want to get an idea of their capacity, the LG2 LaGrande river # 2 dam), has a reservoir that can be seen from space and it’s watershed occupies a space that is bigger that twice New York State.. The planned capacities were LG 1, 10 groups of 91 MW LG 2, 16 groups of 333 MW LG 3, 10 groups of 192 MW LG 4, 8 groups of 254 MW With that kind of capacity, their electricity is so abundant and cheap that they can use lightbulbs to heat their houses in winter and still pay less than most Americans.. The only reason that waterless cost more is that the demand is low.. As to doing less and costing more to operate and maintain, I think you need to crunch some numbers to support that claim..
Response:
> So in your opinion, US consumers are so stupid that they pay more for > something that is bigger and less efficient.
Check out the boom in SUVs. You have not a shred of evidence to back your points, just as I do not. Pot, kettle, black. Until very recently the US never made front-load washing mashines, either, yet they are clearly far superior to top loads in every way possible including energy efficiency. Anyway, you won’t hear from me again on the matter. But I will turn your question back on you, and no it is not rhetorical, I’d like an answer. Instead of dancing around, tell me "why these things have never been made in the USA" cheers, -Alan
Response:
Until the US Government mandated low flow faucets there were few "tankless" heaters that could keep up with the demand and draw an acceptable amount of current.
Response:
Alan McKay writes: > Until very recently the US never made front-load washing mashines, > either, yet they are clearly far superior to top loads in every way > possible including energy efficiency.
Other than costing 5x as much. Ah, the myth of Euro-goodness. As persistent as electric cars. > Instead of dancing around, tell me "why these things > have never been made in the USA"
I suppose, among other things, that they cost more, do less, and won’t last. More to buy, more to operate, more to maintain, etc. etc.
Response:
For those who actually want to educate themselves on the matter rather than spout groundless conjecture : http://tinyurl.com/1i1t cheers, -Alan
Response:
I’m willing to bet that’s it’s a Rinnai. Fantastic units. I’ve been installing their heating units in for years. We’ve installed a few of their water heaters. If they’re anything like their heaters, you can expect many trouble free years of service. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->That’s actually a Japanese unit. Ask yourself why these things have never >been made in the USA. Do you really want a computerized jet engine 165 >KBTU/hr power plant for $1000+ (two year warranty) or the usual $150 tank >(lifetime warranty)? > I’ve changed my mind on buying a tankless hot water heater but your > post is interesting. I’m ok with products made outside the USA. All > three of our cars are either from Europe or Japan. I’ve never seen a > hot water heater with a lifetime warranty. Can you tell me which brand > has this? > Don
Response:
> Yes, the main issue was run length. We ended up using one tank for the > kitchen/laundry/lav. The hot water run there is a maximum of 15 feet > through insulated pipe in a slab. The second tank feeds two bathrooms with > a maximum run length of 10 feet. We’re planning to set the temperature of > that tank significantly lower. Without the second tank, there would have > been a pipe run of about 40 feet. Both tanks are internal to the house and > within the insulated space and both have power venting so as not to use > house air.
Ahhh – hadn’t thought about setting diferent temperatures – that makes a lot of sense from a safety and cleaning point of view. thanks! john
Response:
Alan McKay writes: > – USA is not the least bit concerned about energy efficiency
Oh, so all those USA-made water heaters on the aisle at Home Depot are sold without any regard to efficiency? No claims or advertising about what’s efficient? It appears to me they are chiefly sold on (1) cost/life, and (2) energy efficiency. > Keeping water hot in your water heater is not at all an economical way > to do things. It is a convenient way of doing it and nothing more. And > since there are no regulations in the US to force people to be economical > and save energy, convenience wins every time …
So in your opinion, US consumers are so stupid that they pay more for something that is bigger and less efficient. That there is not one US business with the brains to make a profit on something better and cheaper. And you think that is somehow convenient? And that we need to be forced by the government to be economical? Contemptible. Learn some thermodyamics. Big, slow, cool, buffered (conventional w/h) always beats small, hot, fast, on-demand (instant heaters) as regards energy efficiency. Always.
Response:
Don Beck writes: > I’m ok with products made outside the USA.
Of course. Just consider what it is about these things that they have not been made in the USA at all? Answer that and you’ll understand why they’re not economical.
Response:
> Of course. Just consider what it is about these things that they have not > been made in the USA at all? Answer that and you’ll understand why they’re > not economical.
That has to be about the biggest knee-jerk thing I have ever heard. Do you you even have a clue what you are talking about? Several reason why they are not popular in the US : – size doesn’t matter – Japan (and Germany where these are also popular) have limited space per person. These take up very little room compared to a huge hot water tank. – USA is not the least bit concerned about energy efficiency Keeping water hot in your water heater is not at all an economical way to do things. It is a convenient way of doing it and nothing more. And since there are no regulations in the US to force people to be economical and save energy, convenience wins every time … cheers, -Alan
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Yes, the main issue was run length. We ended up using one tank for the kitchen/laundry/lav. The hot water run there is a maximum of 15 feet through insulated pipe in a slab. The second tank feeds two bathrooms with a maximum run length of 10 feet. We’re planning to set the temperature of that tank significantly lower. Without the second tank, there would have been a pipe run of about 40 feet. Both tanks are internal to the house and within the insulated space and both have power venting so as not to use house air. Terry McGowan
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I ended up with two gas high-efficiency tank heaters (and short pipe > runs) in a 2700 sq.ft. house for three reasons. > Just for my own education, why did you get two heaters instead of one > larger one? Minimize run length? Where did you mount the tanks – > internal to the house, garage? > thanks! > John
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>That’s actually a Japanese unit. Ask yourself why these things have never >been made in the USA. Do you really want a computerized jet engine 165 >KBTU/hr power plant for $1000+ (two year warranty) or the usual $150 tank >(lifetime warranty)?
I’ve changed my mind on buying a tankless hot water heater but your post is interesting. I’m ok with products made outside the USA. All three of our cars are either from Europe or Japan. I’ve never seen a hot water heater with a lifetime warranty. Can you tell me which brand has this? Don
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>Therefore, why change, just to follow a fad, or brag about >how you got one before the neighbors did….
I agree completely. Having used tankless heaters in Europe, they are not by any means better than tank type heaters. In fact, one of the reasons they are used in Europe is to reduce the amount of plumbing required for retrofit applications like listed (historic) buildings. Generally not a problem in the US… Someone in this newsgroup sent me a PDF whitepaper on tank vs tankless heaters a few months ago that was excellent. I’m sure he won’t mind my forwarding it. If you can handle 1MB email attachments, send me a note. — "…but I’ll be alright as long as there’s light from a neon moon."
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> I ended up with two gas high-efficiency tank heaters (and short pipe > runs) in a 2700 sq.ft. house for three reasons.
Just for my own education, why did you get two heaters instead of one larger one? Minimize run length? Where did you mount the tanks – internal to the house, garage? thanks! John
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Don Beck writes: > The unit I’ve got my eye on is the > Aquastar 240FX at Home Depot.
That’s actually a Japanese unit. Ask yourself why these things have never been made in the USA. Do you really want a computerized jet engine 165 KBTU/hr power plant for $1000+ (two year warranty) or the usual $150 tank (lifetime warranty)?
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We own a 3,000+ sq foot home in the Denver suburbs and have been considering buying a tankless hot water heater (natural gas). On paper they sound like a no brainer. But the more I research it the more leery I have become. Issues such as water flow, noise, maintenance etc are starting to concern me. The unit I’ve got my eye on is the Aquastar 240FX at Home Depot. This thing has more BTU’s than our central gas furnace. I don’t want to think I’m at Denver International Airport each time it comes on. We are also concerned about standing in the shower with virtually no water pressure because that is all the unit is letting out. If any of you have advice or information to pass on it would be greatly appreciated. Maybe the old fashioned tank full of ready to use hot water still is the way to go. Thanks, Don
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>We own a 3,000+ sq foot home in the Denver suburbs and have been >considering buying a tankless hot water heater (natural gas). On paper >they sound like a no brainer. But …,cut>… Maybe the old fashioned tank full >of ready to use hot water still is the way to go.
If you have room for the tank, I don’t see it as anywhere near a no-brainer. If you are worried about standby loss, get an add-on external insulating blanket for the tank. Yes the tankless have their fanatical zealots. But there are indeed downsides in use, esp. w/widely varying flow rates. I just don’t see that elimination of stanby loss is a big enough incentive to make it a no-brainer. For a central whole-house unit, there is also no advantage over a central tank, in terms of how long it takes the hot water to get to each point of use. Therefore, why change, just to follow a fad, or brag about how you got one before the neighbors did…. -v.
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> We own a 3,000+ sq foot home in the Denver suburbs and have been > considering buying a tankless hot water heater (natural gas). On paper > they sound like a no brainer. But the more I research it the more > leery I have become. Issues such as water flow, noise, maintenance etc > are starting to concern me. The unit I’ve got my eye on is the > Aquastar 240FX at Home Depot. This thing has more BTU’s than our > central gas furnace. I don’t want to think I’m at Denver International > Airport each time it comes on. We are also concerned about standing in > the shower with virtually no water pressure because that is all the > unit is letting out. If any of you have advice or information to pass > on it would be greatly appreciated. Maybe the old fashioned tank full > of ready to use hot water still is the way to go. > Thanks, > Don
You are right to give it a second thought, Don. There are a number of important considerations as I found when I went through the evaluation process for a new house which is now under construction. Read an article entitled, "What’s the Big Deal About Tankless Water Heaters?". It’s available as a download from a maker of tank type water heaters, State Industries ( http://www.stateind.com/ ). The article is obviously biased toward tank heaters, but it brings out the comparison factors and there’s plenty of interesting data. I ended up with two gas high-efficiency tank heaters (and short pipe runs) in a 2700 sq.ft. house for three reasons. First, they’re much simpler. A gas or electric tank heater is easy to fix and, even better, there’s not much to go wrong. Tankless heaters are complicated. Some have three modulation controls (air, gas and water). Second, in my area, the city water supply has been known to fail — not often; but 3-4 times over the last 15 years. It’s been handy to have 40-50 gallons of water in the tank for emergency use. Third, the energy savings for tankless heaters are not compelling. Energy cost savings, if any, take years. Terry McGowan
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It is filthy dirty, and rust everywhere including the heat exchange. I don’t know whether it has been properly cared for. The filter looks like it hasn’t been replaced for a long time. > (allowing carbon monoxide into the house), it’s good to go. I *WOULD* > buy carbon monoxide detectors for any home using a gas furnace more > than 10 years old — they can literally be a life saver (yes, I had > CO detectors in my home). 