Consumer Homes.

Question:

we are designing an off grid home from scratch. at this point, we have not made any choices about location, material, etc… although we are heavily leaning towards an underground dome home with one exterial wall for sun gain. is it realistic to power such a home (2000 square feet, fridge, freezer, hotwater, well pump, one pc, lamps, radiant floor heat) totally on solar power? what is the best way to do this? do we have to be in a "sunny" location? there are many books on the subject- which are trust worthy? thanks, sc

Response:

See: http://www.ctaz.com/~wmbjk/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->we are designing an off grid home from scratch. at this point, we have not >made any choices about location, material, etc… although we are heavily >leaning towards an underground dome home with one exterial wall for sun >gain. is it realistic to power such a home (2000 square feet, fridge, >freezer, hotwater, well pump, one pc, lamps, radiant floor heat) totally on >solar power? what is the best way to do this? do we have to be in a "sunny" >location? there are many books on the subject- which are trust worthy? >thanks, >sc

Response:

the more insulation the better, body heat will keep a very well insulated house warm, adding sun will make it unbearably hot.  triple pane glazing, 6′+ earth banking on the north side will insulate up to that magic number.  the biggest problem is the glazing, you gotta pay through the nose to get enough.         powering a house on solar is not terrible for costs, but you have to replace the batteries occasionally.  having enough panels to keep the batteries charged is important, if you don’t live in a sunny location you will need lots more.  add in a generator and a switch for connecting to the main power grid, you should survive quite well. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > we are designing an off grid home from scratch. at this point, we have not > made any choices about location, material, etc… although we are heavily > leaning towards an underground dome home with one exterial wall for sun > gain. is it realistic to power such a home (2000 square feet, fridge, > freezer, hotwater, well pump, one pc, lamps, radiant floor heat) totally on > solar power? what is the best way to do this? do we have to be in a "sunny" > location? there are many books on the subject- which are trust worthy? > thanks, > sc

Response:

Been reported that land is dirt cheap in northern Arizona, where there is plenty of sunshine.  Probably mild climate to boot.  Sure you can power everything you mentioned with solar.  Just takes so much money to buy sufficient number of panels, batteries, inverters, backup generators, windmills and so forth.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> we are designing an off grid home from scratch. at this point, we have not > made any choices about location, material, etc… although we are heavily > leaning towards an underground dome home with one exterial wall for sun > gain. is it realistic to power such a home (2000 square feet, fridge, > freezer, hotwater, well pump, one pc, lamps, radiant floor heat) totally on > solar power? what is the best way to do this? do we have to be in a "sunny" > location? there are many books on the subject- which are trust worthy? > thanks, > sc

Response:

we are looking at southern virginia… not totally sunny like airzona, but not northern us either. what is the order of magnitude when you say "so much to buy sufficient number of panels…." 5k? 10k? 15k? thanks!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Been reported that land is dirt cheap in northern Arizona, where there is > plenty of sunshine.  Probably mild climate to boot.  Sure you can power > everything you mentioned with solar.  Just takes so much money to buy > sufficient number of panels, batteries, inverters, backup generators, > windmills and so forth. > we are designing an off grid home from scratch. at this point, we have not > made any choices about location, material, etc… although we are heavily > leaning towards an underground dome home with one exterial wall for sun > gain. is it realistic to power such a home (2000 square feet, fridge, > freezer, hotwater, well pump, one pc, lamps, radiant floor heat) totally > on > solar power? what is the best way to do this? do we have to be in a > "sunny" > location? there are many books on the subject- which are trust worthy? > thanks, > sc

Response:

define sunny location please? also, what is lots more panels? we are so new to this, have no concept of what the relative values are. can you wire a house so that some things are solar, and some are on the main power grid? or is it an all or nothing proposition?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> the more insulation the better, body heat will keep a very well > insulated house warm, adding sun will make it unbearably hot.  triple > pane glazing, 6′+ earth banking on the north side will insulate up to > that magic number.  the biggest problem is the glazing, you gotta pay > through the nose to get enough. > powering a house on solar is not terrible for costs, but you have to > replace the batteries occasionally.  having enough panels to keep the > batteries charged is important, if you don’t live in a sunny location > you will need lots more.  add in a generator and a switch for connecting > to the main power grid, you should survive quite well. > we are designing an off grid home from scratch. at this point, we have not > made any choices about location, material, etc… although we are heavily > leaning towards an underground dome home with one exterial wall for sun > gain. is it realistic to power such a home (2000 square feet, fridge, > freezer, hotwater, well pump, one pc, lamps, radiant floor heat) totally on > solar power? what is the best way to do this? do we have to be in a "sunny" > location? there are many books on the subject- which are trust worthy? > thanks, > sc

Response:

>…body heat will keep a very well insulated house warm…

Let’s try some numbers. This seems untrue for houses, although it might work well with large structures and lots of bodies… How many 300 Btu/h (100% occupancy) bodies are needed to keep a 32′x32′x16′ house with R48 walls and ceiling and 160 ft^2 of R4 windows at 60 F on a 30 F night? With thermal conductance G = 160ft^2/R4+(2048-160)/R48+32×32/R48 = 40+39+21 = 100 Btu/h-F, it needs (60-30)100 = 3K Btu/h, ie 3K/300 = 10 people. But ASHRAE says they each need 15 cfm of fresh air to breathe, which adds about 150 Btu/h-F to G, or less, with an air-air heat exchanger. If it’s 50% efficient, including latent heat, with P people inside, G = 100+7.5P and (60-30)(100+7.5P) = 300P, and we need P = 40 people. Nick

Response:

>Been reported that land is dirt cheap in northern Arizona,

Really? Where? How cheap? >…where there is plenty of sunshine.  Probably mild climate to boot. >Sure you can power everything you mentioned with solar.  Just takes >so much money to buy sufficient number of panels, batteries, inverters, >backup generators, windmills and so forth.

How much? Nick – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> we are designing an off grid home from scratch. at this point, we have not > made any choices about location, material, etc… although we are heavily > leaning towards an underground dome home with one exterial wall for sun > gain. is it realistic to power such a home (2000 square feet, fridge, > freezer, hotwater, well pump, one pc, lamps, radiant floor heat) totally > on solar power? what is the best way to do this? do we have to be in a > "sunny" location? there are many books on the subject- which are trust > worthy? thanks, > sc

Response:

>Been reported that land is dirt cheap in northern Arizona, > Really? Where? How cheap? >…where there is plenty of sunshine.  Probably mild climate to boot. >Sure you can power everything you mentioned with solar.  Just takes >so much money to buy sufficient number of panels, batteries, inverters, >backup generators, windmills and so forth. > How much? > Nick

Eagerly awaiting his answers, but your questions would be better asked of a magic eight-ball…..or my cat.  ;-) Wayne

Response:

> we are looking at southern virginia… not totally sunny like airzona, but > not northern us either. > what is the order of magnitude when you say "so much to buy sufficient > number of panels…." 5k? 10k? 15k?

… There is no single answer for how much a power system will cost you. It all depends on what you want. Mostly it depends on what you want to power and how you want to do it. I’ve heard of people who have gone completely without electricity in their homes. They use propane fridges, oil and/or propane lamps, etc. If you wanted to live a life like that then you wouldn’t need to spend any money on panels. Then there is the other side of the coin. People who do not want to make any changes to a power hungry lifestyle. These folks could easily spend 50K, 100K or more, depending on how many electric cars they want to charge and how far they drive. From what I’ve seen it seems that you should expect costs somewhere in the 10 to 30K range for a modest system where you have made some sort of changes to reduce your homes electricity demands. Anthony

Response:

> >Been reported that land is dirt cheap in northern Arizona, > Really? Where? How cheap?

If you consider land to be dirt then all land, anywhere, is ‘dirt cheap’. That said, I have personally seen lots for sale in Arizona for $200 an acre. I’m sure that if you looked hard enough you could find some that are cheaper than that. These particular lots I saw happened to be over a brine aquifer that was some hundreds of feet down and they were quite distant from the nearest town. This means that water is an issue in such a location and any kind of town services nonexistent. Due to the relatively high land taxes in Arizona you can find quite a number of lots like these for sale from the county for back taxes. Often the accumulated taxes are more than the property is worth so these lots have remained on the books for decades without any takers. Anthony

Response:

> >Been reported that land is dirt cheap in northern Arizona, >Really? Where? How cheap? >>…where there is plenty of sunshine.  Probably mild climate to boot. >>Sure you can power everything you mentioned with solar.  Just takes >>so much money to buy sufficient number of panels, batteries, inverters, >>backup generators, windmills and so forth. > How much? >Eagerly awaiting his answers, but your questions would be better asked of >a magic eight-ball…..or my cat.  ;-)

I asked because I was there in August, and noticed that land within 20 miles of Phoenix was about $500K/acre. I learned that less than 16% of the land in Arizona was available for ownership. Most of it is owned by the government and native Americans. Nick

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Been reported that land is dirt cheap in northern Arizona, > Really? Where? How cheap? > >…where there is plenty of sunshine.  Probably mild climate to boot. > >Sure you can power everything you mentioned with solar.  Just takes > >so much money to buy sufficient number of panels, batteries, inverters, > >backup generators, windmills and so forth. > How much? > Nick > Eagerly awaiting his answers, but your questions would be better asked of a > magic eight-ball…..or my cat.  ;-)

Really thinking of your place,  Wayne.  Why don’t you tell the group the amount of money you have in your piece of heaven, house included.  You’ve lead me to believe in previous post that different sections of land (~640 acres each ) around you were selling at prices people could afford.  You could afford a big block of land in Northern Arizona plus your new off grid house for equal to or less money  than your previous house in the city?

Response:

> we are looking at southern virginia… not totally sunny like airzona, but > not northern us either. > what is the order of magnitude when you say "so much to buy sufficient > number of panels…." 5k? 10k? 15k?

Tough question because there are so many variable which you haven’t mentioned.  How big a home, what kind of insulation and how much, high efficient windows?, latest and greatest high energy efficient appliances?, are you frugal?,   Plan on doing your own installation/maintenance?   Have alot of electric appliances/toys?  Do you require near 100% electric power at all times (need backup power generation capabilities) ?    Want the finest equipment available?   Anyway, you probably can start at the $10k figure and rapidly go up from there

Response:

> Really thinking of your place,  Wayne.  Why don’t you tell the group the > amount of money you have in your piece of heaven, house included.  You’ve > lead me to believe in previous post that different sections of land (~640 > acres each ) around you were selling at prices people could afford.  You > could afford a big block of land in Northern Arizona plus your new off grid > house for equal to or less money  than your previous house in the city?

I’ve always admired Waynes setup…. a total off grid solar home… on one square mile of homestead, located on top of a hill… in Sunny Arizona…. with a landing strip for his home made ultra light aircraft…. it’s a nice lifestyle… away from the rigors of city living… but with the comforts of home living… Gig

Response:

> define sunny location please? also, what is lots more panels? we are so new > to this, have no concept of what the relative values are.

Sunny, as in ~5hrs per day of usefull non-cloudy sunshine to the panels. There are charts that give this info.    Less sunlight per day  to the panels means you have to purchase more panels to generate equivalent electrictiy.   Then when it is cloudy,  or storming, then you can elect to a wind mill generator(s), and when none of that is functioning do to long periods of clouds with no wind, high electric usage,  then you can start your petroleum/biofuel backup generator. Of course generators make noise, so be sure to locate it far away from your house, in a specially constructed sound proof building and bury the electric line to your house.  It will take more money to purchase the necessary hardware to make all the generating systems function (switch from one to another)  somewhat automatically.   Of course you can do the switching manually and save money.  You still have to spend some time maintaining the batteries. > can you wire a house so that some things are solar, and some are on the main > power grid?

Sure you can, You just have to pay the expense of dual wiring, fixtures and so forth.  or is it an all or nothing proposition? NO, not necessary.

Response:

>It will take > more money to purchase the necessary hardware to make all the generating > systems function (switch from one to another)  somewhat automatically.

????? Solar and wind in a hybrid system generally charge simultaneously. Generators plumbed though an inverter such as Trace SWs have their output connected directly to the loads, and any excess goes to charging alongside any other inputs. If the loads need more power than the generator can supply, then the inverter switches from charging to inverting to increase the total power available. The generator can be set up to start automatically a number of ways…. when the batteries are low or at a certain time of day for instance. > Sure you can, You just have to pay the expense of dual wiring, fixtures and > so forth.

In many setups, all of the loads use AC house current. An inverter like a Trace SW controls whether the loads are receiving their supply from the grid (if available), from a generator (if running), from the batteries, or a combination. Dual wiring along with a basic inverter is likely to cost more than using single wiring and a more sophisticated model. Wayne

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>…Of course generators make noise, so be sure to locate it far away >from your house…

Nonono. Use that "waste heat." Nick

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>Eagerly awaiting his answers, but your questions would be better asked of >a magic eight-ball…..or my cat.  ;-) > I asked because I was there in August,

 My mistake, I thought you were trying to point out the oversimplified nature of his comments. I hope you’re not becoming un-irracible.  ;-) >and noticed that land within 20 > miles of Phoenix was about $500K/acre.

Yes, I’m sure you could find many more examples of that. > I learned that less than 16% of > the land in Arizona was available for ownership. Most of it is owned by > the government and native Americans. > Nick

Also true, and interesting. But is it of much consequence given that there are dozens of developers selling 40 acre chunks for $700 an acre? The "limited" availability of public land in Arizona is something the real estate developers never seem to forget to mention, just before they tell you that they happen to have twenty thousand acres available for purchase. The main drawback of cheap land in AZ is that most of it is *very* rural, and can be expensive to develop. For instance, there’s plenty of land available in our area, but the ground water under much of it is 800 feet down. Installing a domestic water well in that situation can cost $20k, which is about what the owner might have paid for the 40 acre parcel. On the up side, the more rugged parcels tend to cost less, and often have shallower water. But the more rugged, the less close to amenities and services usually. For instance, if we wanted to install a mailbox, it would be approximately 14 miles from our house. Eventually the mail delivery route will extend closer, but by then I expect we’ll be receiving our packages via particle beam. If anyone wants examples of cheap dirt here, get yourself a copy of the Kingman Dollar Saver or Prospecter. You’ll find quite a few 1 and 2 acre lots for about $2k. Occasionally those lots are in areas which while divided up, are totally uninhabited. The first person to move in gets the use of many thousand surrounding acres, perhaps for decades. Don’t count on 15 minute pizza delivery though. One other interesting tidbit – in our county, much of the public land is "checker board". That is, every second section is private. It helps avoid endless expanses of development, although many (not me) believe that all the public land should be in one place, and all the private land somewhere else. Wayne

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> The "limited" availability of public land in Arizona is something the real > estate developers never seem to forget to mention, just before they tell you > that they happen to have twenty thousand acres available for purchase.

Meant to say limited availability of *private* land.

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> The main drawback of cheap land in AZ is that most of it is *very* rural, > and can be expensive to develop.

True,  Another way of saying it is:  The land is like a moonscape (very well could be pretty, depending upon the eye of the beholder)  .  You may need an aircraft to get to it, let alone construct a home.   Hey, have I got a deal for you.  If you are interested in moonscape, I can sell you a whole bunch for a real cheap price. For instance, there’s plenty of land > available in our area, but the ground water under much of it is 800 feet > down.

Cistern.  Buy a five ton truck with a 1500 gallon tank and haul.  Gets old, from the locals I know that do it.  Installing a domestic water well in that situation can cost $20k, > which is about what the owner might have paid for the 40 acre parcel.

True, if you are luck and hit a water producing zone.  Water well drillers do not gurantee results, they just drill the hole and case it.  They get paid by the foot.  On the > up side, the more rugged parcels tend to cost less, and often have shallower > water. But the more rugged, the less close to amenities and services > usually.

Amenities, such as an all season road, telephone, school,  police, medical facility and shopping within a reasonable (60 minutes??)  travel time. > If anyone wants examples of cheap dirt here, get yourself a copy of the > Kingman Dollar Saver or Prospecter. You’ll find quite a few 1 and 2 acre > lots for about $2k.

Will the county issue a building permit on a 1-2 acre parcel (thinking a septic/water well setup)  Occasionally those lots are in areas which while divided – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> up, are totally uninhabited. The first person to move in gets the use of > many thousand surrounding acres, perhaps for decades. Don’t count on 15 > minute pizza delivery though. > One other interesting tidbit – in our county, much of the public land is > "checker board". That is, every second section is private. It helps avoid > endless expanses of development, although many (not me) believe that all the > public land should be in one place, and all the private land somewhere else. > Wayne

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> True,  Another way of saying it is:  The land is like a moonscape (very well > could be pretty, depending upon the eye of the beholder)  .  You may need an > aircraft to get to it, let alone construct a home.   Hey, have I got a deal > for you.  If you are interested in moonscape, I can sell you a whole bunch > for a real cheap price.

I think you went about a week without wrinting anything too clueless. Then came the paragraph above. Sigh. Wayne

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> True,  Another way of saying it is:  The land is like a moonscape (very > well > could be pretty, depending upon the eye of the beholder)  .  You may need > an > aircraft to get to it, let alone construct a home.   Hey, have I got a > deal > for you.  If you are interested in moonscape, I can sell you a whole bunch > for a real cheap price. > I think you went about a week without wrinting anything too clueless. Then > came the paragraph above. Sigh.

Clueless????? There is a reason why land sells cheap…  Like no minerals, nor timber, nor feed for cattle, nor access, nor proximity to civilization, nor proximity to water,  harsh climate/terrain,  located on the side of a cliff, proximity to work/employment….. and basic essentials. Moon scape is a local definition/terminology for a wasteland.  Kind of like swamp land.  What the hay, if you or anyone else likes it,  can afford it  like 100’s of thousands, if not  millions of dollars of disposable income) then fine and dandy.  Make your expanded footprint on the environment.. You crack me up, posting( sugar coating)  that a water well may very well cost $20k (big deal here)  when the land (640 acres) could cost  a person  a minimum $320,000, and the person very well may not even be able to drive to it because it is *very rural*.  mail box being 14 miles away and so on. Again, if the person can afford it, has the desire, has both eyes open, and likes it, then great, go for it.

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> Clueless?????

Yes, when the subject is off-grid living, totally. Get used to it. And are you ever going to notice that you’ve been posting for months with two "a"s in "codeman"? I’m about to give you some serious advice, which is more than you deserve IMO. I expect that you won’t be able to recognize it as good advice, but here it is anyway – After you type a response, *don’t* hit the send button. Instead, read the post over the next day and ask yourself if you’re actually adding anything useful to the discussion, or if you’re just blurting out uninformed negative speculation and generalities. If it’s the latter, either delete the post, or do some research so that you can add some useful info to your comments ….. like this – I personally know many folks who purchased cheap land that is within commuting distance of employment in their field. They generally take a pay cut which they have to account for in the ‘big picture’. Most of them have an angle, that is, they were able to overcome the negative of the cheap land. For example, one guy who has earth-moving experience made good use of a parcel which needed site and road access work. Another with gas-refrigeration experience set up a business at his new home, cutting his expenses and putting himself right smack dab in the middle of his customers. Others are retired, and able to have a better life on a limited income off-grid in the boonies than they could in a city. If you’re noticing a trend with these examples, it’s that some people are motivated and have useful skills. Having a talent for finding fault isn’t much of a substitute, particularly if you’re no good at it. For instance, you insisted on printing a clueless guess of well over triple what we paid for our property, despite the fact that I all but gave the price on our web site. You should accept that when your positions are based on grossly wrong assumptions, it’s unlikely that readers will agree with them. So you might gain credibility by simply reading more carefully. Start with this post – just read it. It doesn’t need a response. Wayne

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> Clueless????? > Yes, when the subject is off-grid living, totally.

After nearly 47 years of *very rural* living, in five different states/climates, I have about seen and experienced it all.  I have also witnessed other peoples attempts as well.  Sure, there  is that small percentage of folks that have the right combination of will power and *money* to succeed (for how long a period is equally debateable) .   The only part that I have not experienced is the *off electric grid power* part, but that is an easy enough concept to understand.  That part( homepower) just takes more money. > I’m about to give you some serious advice, which is more than you deserve > IMO.

I didn’t ask for your advice, nor want it.  I shall continue to post my opinions on the different subject matter and you are welcome to do the same. It is up to the readers to sift threw the information/opinions and decide what they want to believe. > I personally know many folks who purchased cheap land that is within > commuting distance of employment in their field.

 They generally take a pay> cut which they have to account for in the ‘big picture’. I too know of an airline employee that lives near me that owns some land (~$3000 per acre which is cheap compaired to a lot of places)  .  Her commute consist of driving 90 miles one-way to the nearest airport, catches a jet liner and fly three states away to a major airport where her job begins/ends.  After she puts in her tour of duty, she reverses the commute back.  I met another fellow this summer that lives in one state,  commutes via car  1500 miles, one way  ( two days going/coming, three days there,,,,one time per month) to the corporate headquarters.  The last state I lived in, I knew of a person that commuted ~300 round trip miles daily to work.  I consider these rare and determined individuals.  Not necessarily crazy but I would hate to trade commutes with them.  I mention this to illustrate  the actual extremes some people go to, to  live in a rural setting but still get to their employment. Most of them have > an angle, that is, they were able to overcome the negative of the cheap > land.

The angle they have is they have enough money to pull it off (or at least they think so)  plus they have a dream.  In my lifetime, I have seen countless number of city folks go for it (rural living).  It isn’t to long before you see the for sale sign going up as well and they are moving back,,,, and there is always the next batch of dissatisfied city folks willing to purchase the home and give it a try.  Negative comment?  LOL, more of an observation.  Ah yes,  there are those that dream and capital and rural living come together and they are still there. For example, one guy who has earth-moving experience made good use of > a parcel which needed site and road access work. Another with > gas-refrigeration experience set up a business at his new home, cutting his > expenses and putting himself right smack dab in the middle of his customers. > Others are retired, and able to have a better life on a limited income > off-grid in the boonies than they could in a city.

Smile!  Wayne, I know small town/rural  dirt contractors that will gladly do a persons site development work (roads, waterlines, building site, ponds, etc( ,  that range from the guy that  only owning a  backhoe to the guy that owns three Cat 637 scrapers/two D-9R dozers and the rest.  I also know the person that will do your drilling and blasting  work.  General cost around here is ~$75/hr for the backhoe and ~$150 per hour for the big iron.  Road culverts, gravel and what every else is on top of that.   Cost starts at their shop and ends when they mobilize back.  Knew a fellow here that spend $10k ( not counting whatever he had in his 1947 D-4 dozer)   to improve the cow path that became his private drive. No gravel, no culverts, smooth in spots, rough in others.  Anyway good enough for an SUV but not a car.  By the time he was done, he purchased two new SUV;s ( one for him and another for his wife) to travel the road.  Hmmmm, think part of the cost of the SUv’s should be toward the road?  <grin>  Anyway he was happy and so more power to him.  Did I mention that he developed health problems at the rip old age of mid 30’s and is no longer living there? > If you’re noticing a trend with these examples, it’s that some people are > motivated and have useful skills. Having a talent for finding fault isn’t > much of a substitute, particularly if you’re no good at it.

Finding fault?  I feel more like a Paul Harvey…  Now, for the rest of the story…… state tuned after this brief message from our sponsors. For instance, > you insisted on printing a clueless guess of well over triple what we paid > for our property, despite the fact that I all but gave the price on our web > site.

I still stand by my statement of there is typically a reason why land sells cheap and if one considers all the cost to develop the homesite on the land, then it may not be cheap.   Cheap is only a  comparison to something that cost more.   Of course beauty and value is in the eye of the beholder.    If one has to purchase an entire section (~640 acres) to get a price ~$500+/acre plus then turn around and pay for development work, that is/could-be a chunk of money just in the land.  Maybe not for you and apparently not for a lot of people who have $100’s of thousands if not millions of dollars to spend on their project.  So be it then, it is out of my league.  BTW, I know of a person that in the last couple of years purchased over 9,000 acres of undeveloped land at ~$3000-3500 per acre and is constructing a 24,000 sq-ft home.  I suppose to him, the land  is cheap and obviously worth it. You should accept that when your positions are based on grossly wrong > assumptions, it’s unlikely that readers will agree with them.

Speculation on your part, and who made you God to decide for other people what they should/shouldn’t agree too?  Again, I am just giving another view from my 47 years of experience and the people can do whatever they want with the information.  I don’t care if they move out and purchase all the cheap land around you.  Remember what started this thread?  I pointed someone toward northern Arizona because there was supposed to be cheap land available, and then you butted in.  Besides the cheap land, you are now telling us that jobs in ones field shouldn’t be to much of a problem as well.  Sounds like paradise (birds nest on the ground too)  and I wish everyone good luck and a happy future in your neck of the world. So you might > gain credibility by simply reading more carefully. Start with this post – > just read it. It doesn’t need a response.

Sure it does(response) , you presented the challenge.  We will never agree Wayne, so lets just drop it.  Between you, me and the fence post, it doesn’t really matter. LOL, I just thought of something,  I have as great a view (perhaps even better scenery )   and rural life style as you and I am not out the money you are.  I am probably paying 20% more for food/fuel and not getting the state and local services my tax dollars are collected and spent upon,  than my counterpart in the big city.  Oh well, my choice, I can afford it at this point in my life.

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