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Bush, GOP Congress Losing Core Supporters Conservatives Point to Spending, Immigration By Jim VandeHei and Peter Baker Washington Post Staff Writers Thursday, May 11, 2006; A01 Disaffection over spending and immigration have caused conservatives to take flight from President Bush and the Republican Congress at a rapid pace in recent weeks, sending Bush’s approval ratings to record lows and presenting a new threat to the GOP’s 12-year reign on Capitol Hill, according to White House officials, lawmakers and new polling data. Bush and Congress have suffered a decline in support from almost every part of the conservative coalition over the past year, a trend that has accelerated with alarming implications for Bush’s governing strategy. The Gallup polling organization recorded a 13-percentage-point drop in Republican support for Bush in the past couple of weeks. These usually reliable voters are telling pollsters and lawmakers they are fed up with what they see as out-of-control spending by Washington and, more generally, an abandonment of core conservative principles. There are also significant pockets of conservatives turning on Bush and Congress over their failure to tighten immigration laws, restrict same-sex marriage, and put an end to the Iraq war and the rash of political scandals, according to lawmakers and pollsters. Bush won two presidential elections by pursuing a political and governing model that was predicated on winning and sustaining the loyal backing of social, economic and foreign policy conservatives. The strategy was based on the belief that conservatives, who are often more politically active than the general public, could be inspired to vote in larger numbers and would serve as a reliable foundation for his presidency. The theory, as explained by Bush strategists, is that the president would enjoy a floor below which his support would never fall. It is now apparent that this floor has weakened dramatically — and collapsed in places. "A lot of us have been like Paul Revere and sounding the alarm for three or four years," said Rep. Tom Feeney (R-Fla.). "Conservatives forgave Bush and Congress for our past mistakes because the war on terrorism was so important . . . but now there is a great deal of unhappiness. What you are going to increasingly see is a divided Republican Party." Michael Franc, a top official at the Heritage Foundation, said his organization hosted 600 of its top conservative donors last week and heard more widespread complaining about Republicans than at any other point in the past 12 years. "It begins with spending, extends through immigration and results in a sense that we have Tweedle-Dum and Tweedle-Dee for the two parties," Franc said. Ralph Sivillo, a 64-year-old retiree living in Monroe, N.Y., said he started turning against Bush in January. He said Democrats are beginning to look better to him. "I’m really dead against Bush at this point. What’s he doing? He’s doing nothing. Everybody’s just bailing on him because they feel the same way." "He’s not well liked," said Douglas Giles, 47, a self-described conservative from Buffalo. "A lot of people don’t think he’s very good." Michael Dimock of the Pew Research Center, a leading polling group, said one of the most striking findings of recent surveys is the growing number of conservatives who "don’t see Bush as one of them" as they did earlier. Pew found that Bush has suffered a 24-point drop in his approval rating among voters who backed him in 2004: from 92 percent in January 2005 to 68 percent in March. Frank Newport of the Gallup Organization cautioned against reading too much into Bush’s recent loss of support among conservatives. He said the numbers tend to ebb and flow and must be confirmed over several months before it is possible to conclude that the president has suffered irreversible erosion. Moreover, the public’s view of the economy and Washington may have been soured by gasoline prices having topped $3 a gallon over the past month. But GOP lawmakers and strategists, who have reviewed a series of polls released in recent weeks, said the results confirm what they are hearing from voters: Conservatives are demoralized and defecting in worrisome numbers. The most recent Associated Press poll found that Bush had a 52 percent approval rating among conservatives; only 33 percent had a favorable opinion of the Republican-run Congress. "The problem in my mind, and the only way to explain the very significant erosion is just a disgust with what appears to be a complete abandonment of limited government," said former Republican congressman Pat Toomey, who runs the conservative Club for Growth. Toomey said commitment to smaller government has been the unifying idea for most elements of the GOP coalition since Ronald Reagan’s presidency. "Republicans have finally had enough," he said, a sentiment echoed by several other conservative activists and lawmakers. Since Bush took office, government spending has increased by more than 25 percent, the largest increase under any president since Democrat Lyndon B. Johnson. At the same time, Bush and the Republican Congress dramatically increased the government’s role in, and overall spending on, education and Medicare by enacting the No Child Left Behind Act and new prescription drug entitlement for seniors. David A. Keene, head of the American Conservative Union, said there is a sense of flaccid leadership at the White House and in Congress that begets "things like frustration, which leads to disgust and apathy" among conservatives. The immigration debate appears to be damaging Bush and GOP lawmakers, too. Conservative voters are saying they want swift congressional action to secure the border and enforce immigrations laws, but Bush and Congress are split over the best way to deal with illegal immigrants already in the country. A new Zogby Interactive poll found that fewer than 25 percent of respondents who described themselves as conservative or very conservative approved of Bush’s handling of the immigration debate. "Unfortunately, when it comes to controlling our borders, we are about a decade behind where we need to be," said Rep. Jeb Hensarling (R-Tex.). Karl Rove, Bush’s top political adviser, and GOP leaders are well aware of the problem and are planning a summer offensive to win back conservatives with a mix of policy fights and warnings of how a Democratic Congress would govern. The plan includes votes on tax cuts, a constitutional amendment outlawing same-sex marriage, new abortion restrictions, and measures to restrain government spending. _____ Assistant polling director Claudia Deane and political researcher Zachary A. Goldfarb contributed to this report.

Question:

Rep. Murtha Holds a News Conference to Respond to President Bush’s Speech Courtesy FDCH eMedia Wednesday, December 7, 2005; 2:46 PM DECEMBER 7, 2005 SPEAKER: U.S. REPRESENTATIVE JOHN MURTHA (D-PA) [*] MURTHA: Let me start by going through a timeline and then get to what the president said. In May 1, 2003, the president declared it was a major — end of major operations. Then he sent John Hamre to Iraq. John Hamre was undersecretary of defense in the Clinton administration. And he found all kinds of problems. He said: You got three months, three critical months to get this thing under control if you want to control the security; 12 months at the most, but three months are crucial, the first three months. He said small things like sewage and water and things that a lot of people don’t pay attention to — I pay attention, because in my district that’s important. But a lot of people paid no attention to that report. MURTHA: I went there — now this was July that Hamre made his report and it was a very prescient report. I mean, it was a very accurate report about the predictions of what was going to happen. And we have a copy of it here for you. In August 16th, I went to Iraq, from August 16th to the 20th. When I came back, I said to Secretary Rumsfeld: We require immediate attention of body armor. They said they were prepared. They said they had what they needed. Forty thousand troops didn’t have body armor. They needed armored Humvees. They needed jammers and Kevlar blankets they asked for. This was all levels of people in Iraq at the time. And then I wrote to the president on September 4th and I said, "I believe you have miscalculated the magnitude of the effort we are facing. We should energize, Iraqitize and internationalize this effort." And we have copies of that letter in there. Then we had the $87 billion supplemental in October of 2003. I said on the floor that I felt the most important part of that supplemental was the construction money. A lot of people voted against it because they didn’t think we should be spending money in Iraq for construction when Wolfowitz, Assistant Secretary Wolfowitz, had said: It’s going to be paid for by oil money. So a lot of people opposed it on the floor, but it passed handily. Then I went back to Iraq and I told Ambassador Bremer, General Sanchez and General Odierno and the young general that was their public relations guy, "You guys are way too optimistic about this." MURTHA: "You’re not being honest with the American people." They took umbrage. I got some nasty letters, as I usually do when I say something like this. Now, you remember, I wrote to the president in September 4th of 2003. I got a letter back in April 6th, 2004. The president didn’t write back. I received a response from a deputy undersecretary — paints a totally rosy, unrealistic picture, saying 200,000 Iraqis — now, hear what I’m saying — 200,000 Iraqis under arms, reconstruction projects and 70 percent of Iraqis feel — or 2,200 reconstruction projects — 70 percent of Iraqis feel life is good. The irony is that this was the month with the most U.S. deaths; 137 were killed. But that’s what they wrote to me. Then we have Abu Ghraib that very year. Now I said to the secretary of defense: You have got a shortage of people in specialty, MOS specialties, that’s a military specialist. We had truck drivers who couldn’t back up a truck. We had security guards who weren’t trained in security at all. We had National Guard security people without radios — couldn’t talk to the front, the back of the convoy, endangering their lives. We got radios over there and we tried to address this very problem. And we had a press conference. Nancy Pelosi and I did. We said, "the military’s overstretched and there’s poor planning." And I said at that time I did not think we could win this militarily. I got a lot of criticism. DeLay got up on the floor and said I was a traitor. What I said to him, publicly, I won’t tell you. Now, here’s the way I measure progress. The president said we got slow progress. We want to help the government of Iraq — this is the State Department — provide essential services, crude oil production. MURTHA: Now, the green line you see here is the goal — and they got charts here that you can get copies of. This is what we actually had in oil production. Now, you remember, Secretary Wolfowitz said, we’re going to have oil — going to pay for this. And this is all we’ve gotten. We didn’t get up to prewar level in oil production. Today they said we’re making progress. I can only measure progress by what I see and the things that I can actually measure, not by what they say are brigades and so forth and so on. Now, water production: We put $2.1 billion into water production. They’re short of water all over the country. And they have only spent $581 billion — or $581 million. Now, that’s why Hamre’s report was so important. You had to get this insurgency under control immediately. You had to win the hearts and minds of the people. That’s the key in a guerrilla-type war. This is electricity overview. This is the demand. The yellow line is the demand. The red line is the prewar level. And you can see that occasionally you got up to prewar level. That’s the way I measure progress. Now, there’s one other area where I measure progress, and that’s incidents. Incidents have increased fivefold in the period of time that — well, a year ago. A year ago there were five times less than today. And at Abu Ghraib — now, again, we didn’t have the right people in the right kind of specialties. We didn’t have them trained. So at Abu Ghraib, we had people untrained that were taking care of prisoners. And you see the result of that. The secretary offered to resign at that time. I would have accepted his resignation, because I think this was a Defense Department responsibility. And we had many other (inaudible). Right now, GAO says in a report of November — November? — November — we have 112,000 shortages in critical MOSs. Now, what are those shortages? MURTHA: Number one, they’re in demolition experts; number two, special forces people; number three, intelligence experts, which are absolutely essential; and fourth is translators. Now could there be any more important specialties than that? And we’re short in every one of those fields. And you know what? We’re paying someone to go into the Army. When I was in, they paid $72 a day. I volunteered in the middle of the Korean War. They are now paying $150,000 for somebody that’s in special forces, in one of the specialties, in order to get them to re- enlist. They missed their goal. And one of the biggest reasons that I’m so concerned about this — and I talk to the military all the time — is the future of the military. They missed their goal in recruiting by 6,600 this last time. But you have to look at that, because there’s a retention, there’s a stop-loss, plus the problem that we had with the people not in the right specialties. And they enlisted people in the higher levels who were probably going to enlist anyway that they wouldn’t normally have re-enlisted. They have lowered the standards. They’re accepting 20 percent last year in category four. Now, this is a highly technical service we’re dealing with, And yet they lowered the standards to category four, which they said when we had the volunteer army, that would eliminate all the category four. Now, let me tell you the major problem we have. You heard the president talk today about terrorism. Every other word was "terrorism." Let me separate terrorism from insurgency. When I was in Iraq in 1991, president — or King Fahd said to me — this was an early morning meeting, like two or three o’clock in the morning, when he normally met with people during the air war. And he said: Get your troops out of Saudi Arabia the minute this war’s over. You’re on sacred ground. You’re destabilizing the whole region. I reported that back to the State Department and, as you know, we didn’t get our troops out of there. We left our troops there. Bin Laden said he attacked the United States because of the troops in Saudi Arabia. That’s terrorism. Terrorism was in London. Terrorism was in Spain. Terrorism was, obviously, in the United States. MURTHA: That’s completely separate from what’s going on in Iraq. Iraq is an insurgency. At one of the hearings early on, Secretary Rumsfeld denied there was an insurgency. He said it was a gang of something or another. But they wouldn’t admit that they were having real problems over there. They kept being unrealistic, illusionary about what was going on in Iraq. One of the major problems we have in fighting an insurgency is the military and the way they fight. And I adhere to the way they fight. They send in massive force. They use artillery, they use air and mortars. And they kill a lot of people in order to suppress fire and protect our military. I’m for that. But it doesn’t make you any friends. That’s part of the problem. For instance, in Fallujah, which happened about the same time — the first Fallujah happened about the same time as Abu Ghraib — we put 150,000 people outside their homes in Fallujah. If you remember in Jordan, the bomber said that the reason she became a bomber was because two of her relatives were killed in Fallujah. We lost the hearts and minds of the people. Hamre said: You’ve got three months to win the hearts and minds of the people, to get this under control, to get the looting and so forth under control. We didn’t do that. There’s been poor planning from the start by the Defense Department. The Defense Department fought to keep this planning under their control. State Department had entirely different reasons for wanting it. And we even voted in the House to give it to the State Department. And finally, in conference, we had to agree to let the president make the decision. He made the decision to give it to the … read more »

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I heard Murtha yesterday.   He sure makes sense to me. Mr Soul http://www.MusicIsLove.com

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Question:

Unemployment fell to an even 5% in October. Take your partisan shots against Bush all you want; but it takes one *hell* of a roaring economy to shake off hits like that, and keep right on CLIMBING! See, this is why we just laugh off your claims of doom and gloom. Lars

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> Unemployment fell to an even 5% in October. > Take your partisan shots against Bush all you want; but it takes one > *hell* of a roaring economy to shake off hits like that, and keep right > on CLIMBING! > See, this is why we just laugh off your claims of doom and gloom. > Lars

Your’e kidding….right? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Ahem……no comment. Mike

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Is this your idea of a roaring economy? "The payroll gain of 56,000 in October disappointed economists. Before the release of the report, they were predicting that around 100,000 were created during the month." We had a roaring economy during the Clinton years. This is the result of Bush’s policies – "Country could face ’serious economic disruptions,’ outgoing Fed chief says" WASHINGTON – With just three months left before he leaves office, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan raised a warning to Congress: The country could face "serious economic disruptions" if bloated budget deficits are not curbed. The Fed chief’s strong comments, made during an appearance Thursday before Congress’ Joint Economic Committee, come after the government produced a $319 billion budget deficit this year – an improvement from the record amount of red ink registered in 2004 but still the third-highest deficit on record. Mr Soul

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I’m not a gloom and doom guy, but the reports pretty much say "unchanged", such as: THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION:  OCTOBER 2005    Nonfarm payroll employment was little changed (+56,000) in October, and the unemployment rate was essentially unchanged at 5.0 percent, the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today.  …. But at least the S&P 500 is back to where it was 3 or 4 years ago, hardly a roar though. — Phil Wilson —-

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Unemployment fell to an even 5% in October. > Take your partisan shots against Bush all you want; but it takes one > *hell* of a roaring economy to shake off hits like that, and keep right > on CLIMBING! > See, this is why we just laugh off your claims of doom and gloom. > Lars

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’m not a gloom and doom guy, but the reports pretty much say "unchanged", > such as: > THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION:  OCTOBER 2005 >    Nonfarm payroll employment was little changed (+56,000) in October, and > the unemployment rate was essentially unchanged at 5.0 percent, the Bureau > of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today.  …. > But at least the S&P 500 is back to where it was 3 or 4 years ago, hardly a > roar though. > — > Phil Wilson > —- > Unemployment fell to an even 5% in October. > Take your partisan shots against Bush all you want; but it takes one > *hell* of a roaring economy to shake off hits like that, and keep right > on CLIMBING! > See, this is why we just laugh off your claims of doom and gloom. > Lars

You can tell you have a biased news source when down from 5.1. to 5.0 is "essentially unchanged", instead of "down a tenth, to 5.0". It DID change; it went down. Why not SAY that, instead of using a weasel word to twist your way OUT of saying it? Obviously they had a reason to not WANT to say it.  Get a REAL news source, one that just TELLS the truth, rather than spinning it. Because that’s what "essentially unchanged" is: spin. As I said: This is why we laugh at your claims of doom and gloom. Lars

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Where do you get your news from? I get mine (and that quote) from the actual news release on the BLS web site. http://stats.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm and yes it says:                      THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION:  OCTOBER 2005    Nonfarm payroll employment was little changed (+56,000) in October, and the unemployment rate was essentially unchanged at 5.0 percent, the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today. — Phil Wilson

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m not a gloom and doom guy, but the reports pretty much say > "unchanged", > such as: > THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION:  OCTOBER 2005 >    Nonfarm payroll employment was little changed (+56,000) in October, > and > the unemployment rate was essentially unchanged at 5.0 percent, the > Bureau > of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today.  …. > But at least the S&P 500 is back to where it was 3 or 4 years ago, hardly > a > roar though. > — > Phil Wilson > —- > > Unemployment fell to an even 5% in October. > > Take your partisan shots against Bush all you want; but it takes one > > *hell* of a roaring economy to shake off hits like that, and keep right > > on CLIMBING! > > See, this is why we just laugh off your claims of doom and gloom. > > Lars > You can tell you have a biased news source when down from 5.1. to 5.0 > is "essentially unchanged", instead of "down a tenth, to 5.0". It DID > change; it went down. Why not SAY that, instead of using a weasel word > to twist your way OUT of saying it? > Obviously they had a reason to not WANT to say it.  Get a REAL news > source, one that just TELLS the truth, rather than spinning it. Because > that’s what "essentially unchanged" is: spin. > As I said: This is why we laugh at your claims of doom and gloom. > Lars

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Phil, this is obviously an unprecedented attack of one government agency upon our president in a time of war.  Rest assured that there will be a full investigation into this treasonous attack from the commies at the BLS – and when it comes, they’ll get their asses handed to them!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Where do you get your news from? I get mine (and that quote) from the > actual > news release on the BLS web site. > http://stats.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm > and yes it says: >                     THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION:  OCTOBER 2005 >   Nonfarm payroll employment was little changed (+56,000) in October, and > the unemployment rate was essentially unchanged at 5.0 percent, the Bureau > of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today. > — > Phil Wilson >> I’m not a gloom and doom guy, but the reports pretty much say >> "unchanged", >> such as: >> THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION:  OCTOBER 2005 >>    Nonfarm payroll employment was little changed (+56,000) in October, >> and >> the unemployment rate was essentially unchanged at 5.0 percent, the >> Bureau >> of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today. >> …. >> But at least the S&P 500 is back to where it was 3 or 4 years ago, >> hardly >> a >> roar though. >> — >> Phil Wilson >> —- >> > Unemployment fell to an even 5% in October. >> > Take your partisan shots against Bush all you want; but it takes one >> > *hell* of a roaring economy to shake off hits like that, and keep >> > right >> > on CLIMBING! >> > See, this is why we just laugh off your claims of doom and gloom. >> > Lars > You can tell you have a biased news source when down from 5.1. to 5.0 > is "essentially unchanged", instead of "down a tenth, to 5.0". It DID > change; it went down. Why not SAY that, instead of using a weasel word > to twist your way OUT of saying it? > Obviously they had a reason to not WANT to say it.  Get a REAL news > source, one that just TELLS the truth, rather than spinning it. Because > that’s what "essentially unchanged" is: spin. > As I said: This is why we laugh at your claims of doom and gloom. > Lars

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ATTN: Lunch Underbreath: the actual news release on the BLS web site. http://stats.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm and yes it says:                      THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION:  OCTOBER 2005    Nonfarm payroll employment was little changed (+56,000) in October, and the unemployment rate was essentially unchanged at 5.0 percent, the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today. —

Response:

> Unemployment fell to an even 5% in October. > Take your partisan shots against Bush all you want; but it takes one > *hell* of a roaring economy to shake off hits like that, and keep right > on CLIMBING!

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002606771_budget06… Experts: U.S. is spending its way to financial ruin By Kevin G. Hall Knight Ridder Newspapers WASHINGTON – Congress this week is likely to trim federal spending and insist with a straight face that government spending is under better control. It’s not. "The facts are not partisan, and they’re not ideological," said David Walker, the nation’s comptroller general. He should know. He’s the nation’s chief accountant and signs off on the government’s balance sheet. America’s fiscal future, he said, "is worse than advertised." Even though the White House and Congress pledge to trim $35 billion to $50 billion in spending over five years, that’s chicken feed. The government spends more than $2.5 trillion every year. Congress’ savings would trim less than half of 1 percent of annual spending. Walker, along with budget experts from across the political divide, believe Congress is shifting deck chairs on a sinking financial ship. Lawmakers are making symbolic spending cuts while skirting the real drains on the federal budget. In addition, Republicans intend to make tax cuts permanent, which would drain $70 billion in revenues through 2010 – more than the spending cuts Congress is struggling to find. And that’s only the tip of the iceberg. The real problem is that the government’s unfunded liabilities – items that include everything from public debt to promised Medicare and Social Security benefits – are growing at staggering rates. Those liabilities totaled $20.4 trillion in 2000. They reached $43.3 trillion by 2004, after President Bush and Congress increased spending and cut taxes. When the government next reports these numbers Dec. 15, the total is expected to reach $46 trillion to $50 trillion. How much is $50 trillion? About $166,000 for each of the almost 300 million Americans. This imbalance between what government takes in and what it spends is the federal budget deficit. It totaled $319 billion in fiscal 2005, which ended Sept. 30. To bridge that shortfall, the government takes on additional debt, 46 percent of it now held by foreigners, especially the governments of Japan and China. The gross national debt is now more than $8 trillion. The government owes itself much of that in accounts such as the highway trust fund. When IOUs in those accounts come due, the government just issues itself some more debt. The net national debt – the amount that must be financed by borrowing in capital markets, which affects interest rates and the economy – is a mind-boggling $4.6 trillion. "Unless the situation is reversed, at some point, these budget trends will cause serious economic disruptions," Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan told Congress’ Joint Economic Committee on Thursday. Think of America’s financial future this way: A large family goes to a restaurant and stuffs itself on a full-course meal with drinks and dessert. The waitress then hands the bill to the babbling infant in a high chair. Budget deficits make today more enjoyable, but future generations of Americans will have to pay the bills. Most economists, including Greenspan, believe American taxpayers won’t be able to pay for the retirement and health-care promises that the government has made to the baby-boom generation – those born between 1946 and 1964 – which begins retiring in 2008. "We owe it to those who will retire over the next couple of decades to promise only what the government can deliver," Greenspan said Thursday. Undisciplined government spending has done the unthinkable: It’s united experts from two rival think tanks with great influence in Washington – the left-leaning Brookings Institution and the conservative Heritage Foundation. Both accuse Congress and the White House of a "leadership deficit," punting when it should be tackling issues affecting the nation’s financial future. "It’s very obvious that something has to give. It’s as simple as that," said Stuart Butler, vice president of economic policy for the Heritage Foundation. Congress is struggling over modest proposals – such as whether to nick all spending by 2 percent across the board, trim Medicaid, pinch food stamps and farm subsidies – but ignoring big-ticket spending on tax cuts, defense, homeland security, Medicare and Social Security. Douglas Holtz-Eakin, director of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO), said current congressional efforts to trim spending won’t make much difference. "It doesn’t change our outlook substantially at all over the long haul," said Holtz-Eakin, who formerly worked for Bush. "The most important thing about the number this year is not the number, but doing it." Congress shows no interest in halting a Medicare drug benefit scheduled to take effect next year. It will cost $700 billion over 10 years, and more after. It’s one reason why spending on Medicare, the health-care program for the elderly and disabled, is projected to explode. Medicare benefits promised to 40 million seniors will cost $2.7 trillion more over the next 10 years than what it costs now, according to Heritage Foundation economists. Left unchanged, Medicare promises will cost $30 trillion over 75 years. That would consume all federal revenues, leaving nothing for national defense – or anything else. "It’s like falling off a 30-story building. For the first 20, it doesn’t seem so bad," Heritage’s Butler said. Congress displays no appetite for curbing the biggest expenses in the federal budget – automatic "entitlement" spending, especially Social Security and Medicare. In 1985, spending on such entitlements took 45 percent of the federal budget. It now takes 56 percent. A decade from now, it will take 62 percent, according to the CBO. It gets worse from there, as the first wave of boomers reaches full retirement age in 2011. "If there’s one thing that could bankrupt the country, it’s health care," Comptroller General Walker said. But it’s not just health care and retirement, not just war and homeland security. Congress is spending lavishly on everything, said Brian Riedl, Heritage’s top budget analyst. Spending has grown twice as rapidly under Bush than it had under Clinton. Remove defense and homeland security costs and spending still jumped 22 percent. "Everything is going up well past inflation" rates, Riedl said. Since 2001, spending on education is up more than 100 percent, international programs 94 percent and housing and commerce up 86 percent. "We need a spending cap that helps lawmakers say no," Riedl said. He pointed to the 1990 agreement between Congress and the first President Bush called Pay-Go, which capped discretionary spending and required new spending to be offset with cuts elsewhere. Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., the ranking Democrat on the Senate Budget Committee, recently introduced an amendment to return to Pay-Go. "There is an old-fashioned idea," he said on the Senate floor. "Pay for it." Copyright

Question:

today my water tank still had a little over 40 degrees… not much, but still usable. Thus our system did supply us with warm water for a total of 7 (!!!) days of bad weather! Luckily we still do not need any oil as the sun was able to come through the mist today, at least partially, putting enough reserve in the tank for the next several days! (I cheated a little as my wife was not here in that time, so one person less for showers, but then the system did not have maximum energy last friday to start with). Can’t wait to experience the winter’s performance )) Everyone who has a solar system should put a good additional insulation around the reservoir, it’s worth it! Christian

Response:

How big is your tank? I am contemplating burying a huge one or building a room with 1000+ gal. and stuffing the room with insulation. Still contemplating though.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> today my water tank still had a little over 40 degrees… not much, but > still usable. > Thus our system did supply us with warm water for a total of 7 (!!!) days of > bad weather! Luckily we still do not need any oil as the sun was able to > come through the mist today, at least partially, putting enough reserve in > the tank for the next several days! > (I cheated a little as my wife was not here in that time, so one person less > for showers, but then the system did not have maximum energy last friday to > start with). > Can’t wait to experience the winter’s performance )) Everyone who has a > solar system should put a good additional insulation around the reservoir, > it’s worth it! > Christian

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> How big is your tank? > I am contemplating burying a huge one or building a room with 1000+ gal. > and > stuffing the room with insulation. Still contemplating though.

"just" 500 liters… Christian

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Home made collector? How big?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How big is your tank? > I am contemplating burying a huge one or building a room with 1000+ gal. > and > stuffing the room with insulation. Still contemplating though. > "just" 500 liters… > Christian

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No, standard collectors. 4 collectors, 2.6 m^2 net area each. Tilt 30 degrees from the vertical (!) – optimized for autumn and spring. I know I should make a www site describing all of my system — I will as soon as I have time and a way to create a homepage easily. Christian

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Home made collector? > How big?

Response:

Are you saying you have over 27 square metres of surface? I do not understand "standard collectors". This means non-vacuum tube but not homemade?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> No, standard collectors. 4 collectors, 2.6 m^2 net area each. Tilt 30 > degrees from the vertical (!) – optimized for autumn and spring. > I know I should make a www site describing all of my system — I will as > soon as I have time and a way to create a homepage easily. > Christian > Home made collector? > How big?

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No, not homemade. "Standard" means "commercial flat collector" URL about some description (in German) is http://www.invest-tools.com/pub/solar/files/MontageanleitungApollo27.pdf We don’t get any money from the state if we use homemade parts here in Germany. Christian

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Are you saying you have over 27 square metres of surface? > I do not understand "standard collectors". This means non-vacuum tube but > not > homemade? > No, standard collectors. 4 collectors, 2.6 m^2 net area each. Tilt 30 > degrees from the vertical (!) – optimized for autumn and spring. > I know I should make a www site describing all of my system — I will as > soon as I have time and a way to create a homepage easily. > Christian > > Home made collector? > > How big?

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The size was 4 units of 4×8′ panels then?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> No, not homemade. "Standard" means "commercial flat collector" > URL about some description (in German) is > http://www.invest-tools.com/pub/solar/files/MontageanleitungApollo27.pdf > We don’t get any money from the state if we use homemade parts here in > Germany. > Christian > Are you saying you have over 27 square metres of surface? > I do not understand "standard collectors". This means non-vacuum tube but > not > homemade? >> No, standard collectors. 4 collectors, 2.6 m^2 net area each. Tilt 30 >> degrees from the vertical (!) – optimized for autumn and spring. >> I know I should make a www site describing all of my system — I will as >> soon as I have time and a way to create a homepage easily. >> Christian >> > Home made collector? >> > How big?

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4 panels, 2141 mm x 1251 mm x 85 mm each. I’m sorry the link I posted was not valid any more, I changed the location in the evening to finally create a website (not finished yet, http://www.invest-tools.com/pub/solsys). Christian

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The size was 4 units of 4×8′ panels then?

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> http://www.invest-tools.com/pub/solsys).

Christian, Thanks for posting your results.  I’m interested in your performance graphs … could you give an English translation of the different curves?  I figured out what Kollektor means, but am having trouble with the rest Regards, Mark — Teach a man to fish and he’ll pay you for one day. Give a man fish, and he’ll pay you for a lifetime.

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I will. Today, possibly tomorrow evening. Also, I will include a sketch of the system, position of the sensors, … Christian

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> http://www.invest-tools.com/pub/solsys). > Christian, > Thanks for posting your results.  I’m interested in your performance > graphs … could you give an English translation of the different > curves?  I figured out what Kollektor means, but am having trouble with > the rest > Regards, > Mark > — > Teach a man to fish and he’ll pay you for one day. > Give a man fish, and he’ll pay you for a lifetime.

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I improved the pages http://www.invest-tools.com/pub/solsys today, and added a translation table Does it help? Christian

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> http://www.invest-tools.com/pub/solsys). > Christian, > Thanks for posting your results.  I’m interested in your performance > graphs … could you give an English translation of the different > curves?  I figured out what Kollektor means, but am having trouble with > the rest > Regards, > Mark > — > Teach a man to fish and he’ll pay you for one day. > Give a man fish, and he’ll pay you for a lifetime.

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> How big is your tank? > I am contemplating burying a huge one or building a room with 1000+ gal. and > stuffing the room with insulation. Still contemplating though.

Wow. That’s a lot of heat storage. Is this to heat your entire home ? How much solar panel will you install ?

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All still being thought out yet. I saw a polyethylene tank at 1600 US gals today for under $900. Thinking about how I can insert heat exchange coils into it via the small clean out hole in the top. Possibilities include, driveway snow melting, hydronic floor heat in basement, heat water supplement. Possibilities include solar panels covering a 12/12 roof side, natural gas boosting, outside firepit with copper windings around the drum and inside wall bricking. Much to think about and calculations to avoid too much play for too little payback yet. If I can phase shift my heat by collecting during the day and heating during the early morning to bring house temp up. I am not sure of how much thermal mass or lag will be involved yet. If it all falls apart I will at least have anice warm walkout basement floor.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How big is your tank? > I am contemplating burying a huge one or building a room with 1000+ gal. and > stuffing the room with insulation. Still contemplating though. > Wow. That’s a lot of heat storage. > Is this to heat your entire home ? > How much solar panel will you install ?

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> I improved the pages http://www.invest-tools.com/pub/solsys today, and added > a translation table Does it help?

Christian, Thank you.  The figure at http://www.invest-tools.com/pub/solsys/system_schematics.html is helpful also. Regards, Mark

Response:

Question:

Thanks for the link. I did find something i would like to investigate more – i got from your link . Use the attic with heat exchanger to heat the house . Not sure about the other possibility of putting radiant heat in the attic to heat the second floor . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Do you have to go with particular company solar collector when to comes to >absorber plates  ? or can you pick a design (absorber plate) to your >liking when it comes to absorber plates ? Is there a web page that helps >you to decide which absorber plates to go with for your home ? >   Here is a good place to start to get some basic info on solar thermal. > http://www.eere.energy.gov/RE/solar_hotwater.html

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Try this site www.heatwithsolar.com it has design capability for both flat plate collectors and evacuated tubes.  Lots of other knowledge as well. AJ

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Do you have to go with particular company solar collector when to comes to > absorber plates  ? or can you pick a design (absorber plate) to your > liking when it comes to absorber plates ? Is there a web page that helps > you to decide which absorber plates to go with for your home ?

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> Do you have to go with particular company solar collector when to comes to > absorber plates  ? or can you pick a design (absorber plate) to your > liking when it comes to absorber plates ? Is there a web page that helps > you to decide which absorber plates to go with for your home ?

  Here is a good place to start to get some basic info on solar thermal. http://www.eere.energy.gov/RE/solar_hotwater.html

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Do you have to go with particular company solar collector when to comes to absorber plates  ? or can you pick a design (absorber plate) to your liking when it comes to absorber plates ? Is there a web page that helps you to decide which absorber plates to go with for your home ?

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Question:

September 3, 2005 United States of Shame By MAUREEN DOWD Stuff happens. And when you combine limited government with incompetent government, lethal stuff happens. America is once more plunged into a snake pit of anarchy, death, looting, raping, marauding thugs, suffering innocents, a shattered infrastructure, a gutted police force, insufficient troop levels and criminally negligent government planning. But this time it’s happening in America. W. drove his budget-cutting Chevy to the levee, and it wasn’t dry. Bye, bye, American lives. "I don’t think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees," he told Diane Sawyer. Shirt-sleeves rolled up, W. finally landed in Hell yesterday and chuckled about his wild boozing days in "the great city" of N’Awlins. He was clearly moved. "You know, I’m going to fly out of here in a minute," he said on the runway at the New Orleans International Airport, "but I want you to know that I’m not going to forget what I’ve seen." Out of the cameras’ range, and avoided by W., was a convoy of thousands of sick and dying people, some sprawled on the floor or dumped on baggage carousels at a makeshift M*A*S*H unit inside the terminal. Why does this self-styled "can do" president always lapse into such lame "who could have known?" excuses. Who on earth could have known that Osama bin Laden wanted to attack us by flying planes into buildings? Any official who bothered to read the trellis of pre-9/11 intelligence briefs. Who on earth could have known that an American invasion of Iraq would spawn a brutal insurgency, terrorist recruiting boom and possible civil war? Any official who bothered to read the C.I.A.’s prewar reports. Who on earth could have known that New Orleans’s sinking levees were at risk from a strong hurricane? Anybody who bothered to read the endless warnings over the years about the Big Easy’s uneasy fishbowl. In June 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, fretted to The Times-Picayune in New Orleans: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president’s budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that’s the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can’t be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us." Not only was the money depleted by the Bush folly in Iraq; 30 percent of the National Guard and about half its equipment are in Iraq. Ron Fournier of The Associated Press reported that the Army Corps of Engineers asked for $105 million for hurricane and flood programs in New Orleans last year. The White House carved it to about $40 million. But President Bush and Congress agreed to a $286.4 billion pork-filled highway bill with 6,000 pet projects, including a $231 million bridge for a small, uninhabited Alaskan island. Just last year, Federal Emergency Management Agency officials practiced how they would respond to a fake hurricane that caused floods and stranded New Orleans residents. Imagine the feeble FEMA’s response to Katrina if they had not prepared. Michael Brown, the blithering idiot in charge of FEMA – a job he trained for by running something called the International Arabian Horse Association – admitted he didn’t know until Thursday that there were 15,000 desperate, dehydrated, hungry, angry, dying victims of Katrina in the New Orleans Convention Center. Was he sacked instantly? No, our tone-deaf president hailed him in Mobile, Ala., yesterday: "Brownie, you’re doing a heck of a job." It would be one thing if President Bush and his inner circle – Dick Cheney was vacationing in Wyoming; Condi Rice was shoe shopping at Ferragamo’s on Fifth Avenue and attended "Spamalot" before bloggers chased her back to Washington; and Andy Card was off in Maine – lacked empathy but could get the job done. But it is a chilling lack of empathy combined with a stunning lack of efficiency that could make this administration implode. When the president and vice president rashly shook off our allies and our respect for international law to pursue a war built on lies, when they sanctioned torture, they shook the faith of the world in American ideals. When they were deaf for so long to the horrific misery and cries for help of the victims in New Orleans – most of them poor and black, like those stuck at the back of the evacuation line yesterday while 700 guests and employees of the Hyatt Hotel were bused out first – they shook the faith of all Americans in American ideals. And made us ashamed. Who are we if we can’t take care of our own? _____ Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company <http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/03/opinion/03dowd.html?th&emc=th>        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

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Do You Appear Stupid? If So, Help Is Here. World Record Memory Holder Comes To Rescue MemoryMadeEasy.com

Response:

Based on Bruce’s measured response to another post by me, I retract the above as a personal attack. Mea Culpa Mick

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avow: >Based on Bruce’s measured response to another post by me, I retract the >above as a personal attack. >Mea Culpa >Mick

Swapping your addy is just a low spam trick.  I’d quit bitching about other people playing games. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Karl Rovershank (aka Lars from Mars) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

Response:

Yo KW, Let’s analyze your statement "Swapping your addy is just a low spam trick." This only applies if you are a spammer, which I am not. I simply switched to my PERSONAL email for this group. Guess what it is! I have Never posted SPAM on this group, unlike so many others, including Zootwoman and Bruce (whom I reference above) with cut and pastes directly from other sources and no discourse about amps. MY ONLY OFF-TOPIC POSTS TO THIS GROUP, FOR ALL ETERNITY, HAVE BEEN TO POINT OUT EVIL WHEN I SEE IT IN THE FORM OF POSTING SPAM TO THE AMP GROUP. Mick

Response:

Evil? You think postin Ot IS EVIL? THEN YOU ARE AN IDIOT!

Response:

Question:

I just got one of the Valve Junior amps, which I really like.  however, there’s a buzz I can’t seem to get rid of. First off, this is basically a tweed champ, built cheaply, and with a few changes.  The topology is as follows.  Gain stage coupling cap, voltage divider with two 1M resistors, and a 1M volume pot, which feeds the grid of the next gain stage. So there’s a 120cycle buzz that is controllable by the volume pot when no guitar is plugged in.  It happens with every preamp tube I try. Here’s where it gets weird.  I replaced the coupling cap and while it was out I hooked up the amp.  There was still noise.  The only things before the volume knob were the two 1M resistors for a voltage divider.  I tried shorting out the voltage 1M to ground, and now it was silent when the volume knob was full up or full down, but in the middle there is still noteable buzz.  However, if I remove the quick connect that connects the volume pot to the circuit board the buzz goes away. So, if you ground out the wiper send to the grid of the 2nd gain stage, the buzz goes away.  If you put resistance between the wiper and ground, the comes back.  But if you remove the connection from the board that connects the wiper to the grid, the buzz goes away. I should know how to solve this, but nothing seems to be working.  I’ve tried a little bit of shielding on the leads going to the pot, and moving the leads going to the pot, but there’s no change. Ideas? Thanks! Ben Adrian

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Edit… It still makes the buzz when you disconnect the quick connect that connects the pot. Ben

Response:

Another edit.  When I ground the grid of the second gain stage, the amp is totally quiet (except for a bit of single ended amp hum that doesn’t bother me).  When I leave it open and connected to nothing it’s picking up the internal buzz, which makes me think the board layout is bad. I’m thinking maybe I can just run a shielded wire feom the volume put straight to the tube socket… but then I’d have to remove a trace from the board. But it definitely seems like the board trace is getting induced hum. Cheers. Ben Adrian

Response:

> Another edit.  When I ground the grid of the second gain stage, the amp > is totally quiet (except for a bit of single ended amp hum that doesn’t > bother me).  When I leave it open and connected to nothing it’s picking > up the internal buzz, which makes me think the board layout is bad. > I’m thinking maybe I can just run a shielded wire feom the volume put > straight to the tube socket… but then I’d have to remove a trace from > the board.

I cut PC board traces on the merest whim… you’re not meaning that you’d have to take an X-acto knife and physically scrape all the conductor off, certainly. > But it definitely seems like the board trace is getting induced hum.

Welcome to the world of voodoo… you’ll never know without doing the experiment.  Watch where you get your grounds from… try to get the grid return ground near to that stage’s cathode ground.  Good luck! __ Steve .

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Well, I’m concerned that the actual trace placement is what is causing the induced hum. Here’s my plan. All the transformer leads were left at full length and bundled on the inside.  I’m going to unbundle, trim where necessary, and route nicely. I’m going to take the 100 ohm resistors on the heaters that go to ground and connect that to the cathode of the EL84, a la the basic AX84 amp. If that doesn’t work I’m going to convert to DC filaments. In adddition, I’m going to add a standby switch and a tone knob, just because I can. If none of that works, I’ll then scrape the trace and run a shielded wire. Comments, advice? Cheers! Ben Adrian

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Well, I’m concerned that the actual trace placement is what is causing > the induced hum. > Here’s my plan. > All the transformer leads were left at full length and bundled on the > inside.  I’m going to unbundle, trim where necessary, and route nicely. > I’m going to take the 100 ohm resistors on the heaters that go to > ground and connect that to the cathode of the EL84, a la the basic AX84 > amp. > If that doesn’t work I’m going to convert to DC filaments. > In adddition, I’m going to add a standby switch and a tone knob, just > because I can. > If none of that works, I’ll then scrape the trace and run a shielded > wire. > Comments, advice?

Hi Ben, Your key (and excellent) description stating "120hz" hum indicates it has nothing to do with tube heaters and likely has nothing to do with the PCB layout (though remotely possible).  120hz hum comes from the B+ supply (rect & filter) – it’s the ripple freq produced by the fullwave rect from its 60hz power source.  Therefore, whatever is causing the supply ripple to be objectionably audible, your above ideas won’t affect it.  Those ideas would only affect 60hz hum.  You may even have a marginal new filter cap, it is not unknown.  A less-than-happy B+ gnd is another.  Some unwanted means of magnetic coupling of the preamp ckt to the primary supply component(s) is another.  Even an unhappy filter cap and/or its rail resistor futher from the main filter can cause this by causing inadequate stage decoupling.  Similarly, any other causes will somehow relate to the B+ supply ripple.  A scope would help you.

Response:

> Well, I’m concerned that the actual trace placement is what is causing > the induced hum. > Here’s my plan. > All the transformer leads were left at full length and bundled on the > inside.  I’m going to unbundle, trim where necessary, and route nicely.

You can twist opposite phases and get cancellation… highly recommended, better than shielding. > I’m going to take the 100 ohm resistors on the heaters that go to > ground and connect that to the cathode of the EL84, a la the basic AX84 > amp.

Hey, OK with me… single-ended amps don’t cancel filament hum naturally. > If that doesn’t work I’m going to convert to DC filaments.

Man, you’re willing to go all out! > In adddition, I’m going to add a standby switch and a tone knob, just > because I can.

Sure… watch the layout! > If none of that works, I’ll then scrape the trace and run a shielded > wire.

What does the trace do?  Is it a preamp grid connection? You can cut both ends of the trace and sub a wire… no need to scrape the trace off the board.  Then, if you decide to go back with the trace, you can jumper the cuts. First, I’d cure the hum, then go modding.  One thing at a time… believe me, I’ve been there.  You don’t want to have to undo it all, then start over doing what you should have been doing in the first place. __ Steve . __ Steve .

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, I’m concerned that the actual trace placement is what is causing > the induced hum. > Here’s my plan. > All the transformer leads were left at full length and bundled on the > inside.  I’m going to unbundle, trim where necessary, and route nicely. > I’m going to take the 100 ohm resistors on the heaters that go to > ground and connect that to the cathode of the EL84, a la the basic AX84 > amp. > If that doesn’t work I’m going to convert to DC filaments. > In adddition, I’m going to add a standby switch and a tone knob, just > because I can. > If none of that works, I’ll then scrape the trace and run a shielded > wire. > Comments, advice? > Hi Ben, > Your key (and excellent) description stating "120hz" hum indicates it > has nothing to do with tube heaters and likely has nothing to do with > the PCB layout (though remotely possible).  120hz hum comes from the B+ > supply (rect & filter) – it’s the ripple freq produced by the fullwave > rect from its 60hz power source.  Therefore, whatever is causing the > supply ripple to be objectionably audible, your above ideas won’t > affect it.  Those ideas would only affect 60hz hum.  You may even have > a marginal new filter cap, it is not unknown.  A less-than-happy B+ gnd > is another.  Some unwanted means of magnetic coupling of the preamp ckt > to the primary supply component(s) is another.  Even an unhappy filter > cap and/or its rail resistor futher from the main filter can cause this > by causing inadequate stage decoupling.  Similarly, any other causes > will somehow relate to the B+ supply ripple.  A scope would help you.

Yeah… try a much bigger filter cap and see if that helps… if so, then that’s your problem.  Push-pull amps get away with less filtering, since the final section cancels some of this out. __ Steve . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I tried adding more filtering, and it reduced the low level single ended hum, but I still have the buzz that’s affecting the volume knob. I also twisted the filament wires to where they connect to the board. It could be 60 cycle hum and I’m just hearing a higher harmonic of it in the 8 oinch speaker. A scope would be cool, we have one at work for setting azimuth, maybe I’ll see if I can swipe it. Ben

Response:

steve said What does the trace do?  Is it a preamp grid connection? You can cut both ends of the trace and sub a wire… no need to scrape the trace off the board.  Then, if you decide to go back with the trace, you can jumper the cuts. The trace is the grid connection from the wiper of the volume pot.  The volume pot is connected to the board by a multi pin quick connector.  I detach it and disconnect the entire audio circuit before the trace leading to the grid and I get the noise.  However, if I ground the trace or the pin, the buzz stops.  So the second gain stage of the tube is still live and idling, but the buzz is gone when I ground the grid. So this means that the 2nd gain stage is amplifying the buzz, the buzz isn’t coming directly from the first gain stage, because it’s out of the circuit, and the level of the buxx can be adjusted by the volume knob. If the buzz was coming from noise in the B+ on the second gain stage, shouldn’t it be the same level regardless of volume knob position? So it’s not noise from the B+ of the first gain stage because it’s no longer in the circuit, and it not ripple on the plate of the second gain stage because that would not then be controlled by the volume knob. I move the leads all around and get no change in the noise level. I’m pretty stumped. Ben

Response:

> steve said > What does the trace do?  Is it a preamp grid connection? > You can cut both ends of the trace and sub a wire… no > need to scrape the trace off the board.  Then, if you decide > to go back with the trace, you can jumper the cuts. > The trace is the grid connection from the wiper of the volume pot.  The > volume pot is connected to the board by a multi pin quick connector.  I > detach it and disconnect the entire audio circuit before the trace > leading to the grid and I get the noise.  However, if I ground the > trace or the pin, the buzz stops.  So the second gain stage of the tube > is still live and idling, but the buzz is gone when I ground the grid.

All this going between completely open and shorted… not helpful. Use a 1M resistor to shunt the input, then see what your noise level is like.  Use the ground nearest the cathode of the tube for the shunt ground. > So this means that the 2nd gain stage is amplifying the buzz, the buzz > isn’t coming directly from the first gain stage, because it’s out of > the circuit, and the level of the buxx can be adjusted by the volume > knob.

Yes, big antenna. > If the buzz was coming from noise in the B+ on the second gain stage, > shouldn’t it be the same level regardless of volume knob position?

Right.  It’s actual noise you’re picking up… what kind of light is over your bench? > So it’s not noise from the B+ of the first gain stage because it’s no > longer in the circuit, and it not ripple on the plate of the second > gain stage because that would not then be controlled by the volume > knob. > I move the leads all around and get no change in the noise level. > I’m pretty stumped.

You’re picking up noise from the environment… a buzz is normally a fluorescent light.  These things tend to go away when the case is closed back up… __ Steve .

Response:

Update. Last night I found that there was a jumper on the board that carried the signal to the grid of the second gain stage.  It went as follows: wiper of volume pot, wire to quick connect, trace to jumper, jumper, trace to grid. I cut the jumper and the noise went away.  So I wired up a direct wire from the wiper to the nub of the cut jumper sticking out of the circuit board, and it worked, the 120 cycle buzz was gone.  I put the chassis back in the cabinet and there was now a noteable 60 cycle buzz, and there was noise when I turned the volume knob. I put the chassis back ou top of the cabinet and it got quiet again, but now I can juggle the speaker cable and get a 60 cycle buzz to appear and disappear.  But it does seem to get louder when I put it in the cabinet! Plus, when I turn up the volume knob when it’s quiet, the volume will reach a certain level (about 2-3 o’clock) and parasitic oscillations start to appear.  It got too late and I had to stop to go to bed.  I think it’s a problem with the unshielded wire I put in and maybe a ground/chassis issue.  Moving the new lead with a chopstick while the amp is live does give me a change in sound. It should be noted that this amp has a star ground except for the input jack and the speaker jack, which are both grounded throgh the chassis. I run alligator clip leads from the speake ground to the star ground, and from the input jack to the star ground, and nothing quiets down. Steve, I don’t have a bench.  I live in an apartment, and I have a little corner workspace I use when I sit on the floor.  When I do any major soldering, I take it to my kitchen counter.  But there is not flourescent light over my bench or even in my house at all. Tonight my plan is to run a shielded lead in place of the unshielded lead I ran.  Also, to connect the speaker jack and/or the input jack to the star ground if people seem to think that will help.  I also read that grounding the filter cap for the early gain stages closer to the input jack can reduce noise.  I’m wondering if there should be one star ground for everything except for the input jack and preamp filter cap, which ground to the input? Earlier, Steve said I was willing to go all out.  I’m just more interested by the challenge and hopefully reach saticfaction from the result.  I’m not really spending any more money as I have parts at home.  I just enjoy the tinkering. Cheers! Ben Adrian

Response:

One more thing right now. I do own a Silverface Champ (1969), which is more quiet than the Epiphone.  It does have some power tube filament hum, but it’s not as loud, even though it has the same filter cap values.  And there’s not any buzzing or nouises at all. I chould clarify… the noise in the Valve Junior won’t be heard if I’m playing loud, but if I have the volume up high and roll down my volume knob to clean up the tone, you’ll hear a bit of buzz coming through on the quiet parts, and it really bugs me. Cheers! Ben Adrian

Response:

> So this means that the 2nd gain stage is amplifying the buzz, the buzz

No,it doesn’t.  If, as you say, the pot wiper goes straight to the grid, all it means is that you’ve removed (by disconnecting) the tube’s necessary grid resistor, which the pot also functions as, causing the tube’s stage to be unhappy & with near-infinite input impedance that is bound be rather noisy.

Response:

When I trimmed the trace to the grid, even without the load, it was totally quiet, and still had the approaching infinite input impedance. It had the exact same 120 cycle whether the volume pot was in the circuit (which the pot then controlled), out of the circuit, or if I had a 1M to ground alligator clipped in (which was even more noisy as the jumper leads were long). Still, I’m happy for al the responses, and I will double check the second stage with a variety of loads. Thanks, and any other advice is welcomed. Ben Adrian

Response:

> When I trimmed the trace to the grid, even without the load, it was > totally quiet, and still had the approaching infinite input impedance. > It had the exact same 120 cycle whether the volume pot was in the > circuit (which the pot then controlled), out of the circuit, or if I > had a 1M to ground alligator clipped in (which was even more noisy as > the jumper leads were long).

When the grid floats, the tube will block… you’ll get no noise.  The grid needs a leak resistor in order to maintain itself near zero volts DC. Your trace on the PC board may have been coupling to another trace… that’s the way it’s done in the Champ and other Fenders… the input jack and the volume pot wiper wires are twisted together in order to get degenerative feedback.  There’s voodoo in there… have fun! __ Steve .

Response:

> When the grid floats, the tube will block… you’ll > get no noise.  The grid needs a leak resistor in > order to maintain itself near zero volts DC.

Good one.  I was betting on the trace and/or surrounding board condition to present maybe 10+m & maybe a few pf in the bargain – ‘nuf dinky gridleak to make it sound.  He seems to be proving both our cases by chopping the trace to silence.

Response:

I cut the trace and ran an indisidual wire to the board (where the trace was cut) from the wiper.  After some chopstick manipulation, I got it to be pretty quiet. Next I replaced the first 22uf filter cap with an 80 uf.  That took care of most of the single ended power tube hum. Then I replaced the chassis grounding input jack with an isolated one and ran the input jack ground to the star ground. It’s working really well now. Now, a question.  Is the 80uf filter cap going to cause quick wear on the power tube since the amp has a SS rectifier and no standby switch? Cheers! Ben Adrian

Response:

> I cut the trace and ran an indisidual wire to the board (where the > trace was cut) from the wiper.  After some chopstick manipulation, I > got it to be pretty quiet. > Next I replaced the first 22uf filter cap with an 80 uf.  That took > care of most of the single ended power tube hum. > Then I replaced the chassis grounding input jack with an isolated one > and ran the input jack ground to the star ground. > It’s working really well now. > Now, a question.  Is the 80uf filter cap going to cause quick wear on > the power tube since the amp has a SS rectifier and no standby switch?

No… the HV will actually come up slightly slower with the big cap than with the small cap, not enough to make any difference however.  It’s only one tube… screw it. __ Steve .

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> Now, a question.  Is the 80uf filter cap going to cause quick wear on > the power tube since the amp has a SS rectifier and no standby switch?

So you finally dealt with the 120hz hum instead of all the other distractions.  :-) If you want to be anal or accurate, the much bigger cap will greatly increase inrush current at power-on.  This will stress the PT & the SS rects more & if the rects were marginally current rated they’d be at risk.  I highly doubt they are or you’d likely have opened one by now. The PT will take it all in stride.  There will also be some increase in reactive loss in the PT resulting in a little more heating (i.e., the L/C of the 1st filter & PT sec).  Big deal.  But you asked.  :-) While it is seldom mentioned, this can be an important consideration with certain tube rect’s, of which the 5AR4 is one, which do not like high hotswitching current (it the huge cap is after STBY) or excessive inrush loads (some other tube rects).  It is actually a lousy idea to use a 5AR4 in a STBY switched amp which has a lot of capacitance downstream of the switch anyway, though it is done every day.  But it is an equally silly idea to use a STBY switch with a 5AR4 because it is a controlled warmup rect especially designed to eliminate any concerns for having one, yet people do this every day, too.  So go figure. These & other reasons, some of them tonal in AB amps, are why the rule of thumb is 2x original filter capacitance max.  My thumb bends at 2 joints as needed, as does yours. I have a large lot of 80ufd caps I often slap on inadequately filtered gear as humkillers when originality isn’t an issue, because they are on hand & the price is right.  They save some cust’s money & yours would’ve had one 10 minutes after being set on the bench if it’s orig was good but inadequate.

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Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> …just imagine the glare to your secound storey areas!…. >It might also serve as a great landmark for aircraft navigating >overhead >That’s exactly why I won’t be using any spectrally reflective shading >- there is living space, with windows, in the path of the reflection. >The woven aluminized shadecloth would at least scatter more of the >incoming energy, but I still suspect a glance out the window would be >dazzling. >I guess the ultimate solution would be a horizontal "venetian blind" >system that could aim the reflections away from all living space. As >if I’m ever going to have time to construct such a thing in this >lifetime…   >Loren

Levolor does horizontal venetian blinds for skylights,  with polished aluminum vanes–the out side shinier than the inside, but both pretty shiny. David Delaney, Ottawa

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   >Newsgroups: alt.energy.homepower,alt.solar.thermal    >:    >: >> …just imagine the glare to your secound storey areas!….    >: >    >: >It might also serve as a great landmark for aircraft navigating    >: >overhead    >:    >: That’s exactly why I won’t be using any spectrally reflective    >shading : – there is living space, with windows, in the path of the    >reflection. : The woven aluminized shadecloth would at least    >scatter more of the : incoming energy, but I still suspect a glance    >out the window would be : dazzling.    >Consider a form of wooden venetian blinds. Make from cedar and    >leave them "vented" at an angle that blocks sun during peak hours.    >No finish, no reflection, no maintenance and it looks nice too. *    >Suspend a lattice structure over the area and plant some fast    >growing ivy.    >John I lived in west TX a few years.  There was a vine, member of the pea family, that died back each winter, was cut to the ground, and come summer would quickly grow to cover the entire 2-story south wall. Had been doing that for 40 years, according to the previous owner. Nice blossoms, full of little bees. Sorry I don’t know its name.  If someone knows, please post here – I have use for its seasonal shade.  Calls to area plant dealers haven’t helped. Tom Willmon near Mountainair, (mid) New Mexico, USA Net-Tamer V 1.12.0 – Registered

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:

: >> …just imagine the glare to your secound storey areas!…. : > : >It might also serve as a great landmark for aircraft navigating : >overhead : : That’s exactly why I won’t be using any spectrally reflective shading : – there is living space, with windows, in the path of the reflection. : The woven aluminized shadecloth would at least scatter more of the : incoming energy, but I still suspect a glance out the window would be : dazzling. Consider a form of wooden venetian blinds. Make from cedar and leave them "vented" at an angle that blocks sun during peak hours. No finish, no reflection, no maintenance and it looks nice too. Suspend a lattice structure over the area and plant some fast growing ivy. John

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> …just imagine the glare to your secound storey areas!…. >It might also serve as a great landmark for aircraft navigating >overhead >That’s exactly why I won’t be using any spectrally reflective shading >- there is living space, with windows, in the path of the reflection. >The woven aluminized shadecloth would at least scatter more of the >incoming energy, but I still suspect a glance out the window would be >dazzling. >I guess the ultimate solution would be a horizontal "venetian blind" >system that could aim the reflections away from all living space. As >if I’m ever going to have time to construct such a thing in this >lifetime…  

Hi, Is this single or double storey? How about shuttering made of rigid insulating foam painted with aluminium paint on the outside. Where windows are some secondary glazing with solar film or aluminium venetian blinds would limit solar gain quite well. cheers, Pete.

Response:

>Another solution would be to paint the top of the glass. Greenhouse >suppliers sell permanent whitewash as well as spray-on solutions that >can be washed or weathered-off over time. >Nick

Yes, I spent some time looking at that. If the white coating on the flat glazing reflected the heat away from the sunspace, it would go directly in the second story windows. My fabric idea would at least diffuse some of the reflection, and it would be in concave sections rather than perfectly flat. But the main issue I fear is the appearance as it starts to wash away. Sort of like a flock of seagulls dive-bombed the front of my house… No? Loren

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>>Another solution would be to paint the top of the glass. Greenhouse >suppliers sell permanent whitewash… >…If the white coating on the flat glazing reflected the heat away >from the sunspace, it would go directly in the second story windows.

White would reflect more light than heat, maybe 50-80% of the sunpower, diffusely, before it turns into heat, so about half of that would hit the windows. Maybe try off-white or beige or a delightful mauve. >But the main issue I fear is the appearance as it starts to wash away.

You might use something permanent. Nick

Response:

>> …just imagine the glare to your secound storey areas!…. >It might also serve as a great landmark for aircraft navigating >overhead

That’s exactly why I won’t be using any spectrally reflective shading – there is living space, with windows, in the path of the reflection. The woven aluminized shadecloth would at least scatter more of the incoming energy, but I still suspect a glance out the window would be dazzling. I guess the ultimate solution would be a horizontal "venetian blind" system that could aim the reflections away from all living space. As if I’m ever going to have time to construct such a thing in this lifetime…   Loren – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > R’zenboom > Signal.ds >>… >>>Actually, I’d be tempted to sacrifice aesthetics for aluminized >>>shadecloth if I thought it would maintain its reflectivity, but the >>>reflectivity of my aluminized plastic bird-scare tape barely lasts the >>>month required to mature and harvest fruit. And if it wasn’t waving in >>>the wind, the collected road dust and grime would defeat it even >>>sooner. (No summer rain in California.) >>Have you thought about aluminized mylar just inside the glass? >>It is (I think) reflective at most solar wavelengths, and would send a >>maximum amount of radiation back out the glass? >>It might not look that bad as seen through a layer of glass (you could >>try a bit of aluminum foil and see how it looks).  Maybe it could be >>rolled up on rollers at the high end of the sunspace when not in use. >>  I think it would last a long time with the glass to filter out the >>UV, and the reflective surface would be protected by the glass. >>I have found these guys to be good for small quantities of aluminized >>mylar:  http://www.mirrorsheeting.com/ >>It seems like vents at the highest point in the sunspace on the ends >>would also be good. >>Gary >>—-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet > News==—- >>http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ > Newsgroups >>—-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption > =—-

Response:

>The sunspace is not used as living space during really hot weather,

It might be nice to have that ability. Given the concrete, you might vent it at night and keep it shaded with no venting during the day. >…as an aside, putting concrete in a sunspace used for heating >seems inefficient to me. >…for a totally passive heat gain system, the concrete wall has been >quite satisfactory… there is already plenty of heat on any sunny >winter day, and it lasts well through the night.

That’s another way of saying it loses lots of heat at night through the glazing and tends to be lukewarm all winter, vs a low-thermal mass sunspace that makes hot air that flows through the house during the day and gets cold at night when the airflow stops and it loses little heat back out through the glazing. >For summer shading, you might be OK with aluminized (low-e) shadecloth >under the glazing.

Another solution would be to paint the top of the glass. Greenhouse suppliers sell permanent whitewash as well as spray-on solutions that can be washed or weathered-off over time. Nick

Response:

>>That doesn’t quantify re-radiation downward from the shadecloth, or >whether it is black or white or aluminized. >White and aluminized are better, but IIRC, glass is a poor transmitter >for IR longer than 3 microns (T < 1300 F.)

It took a lot of Googling, but I found a great reference that confirms this  - "GLAZING PERFORMANCE, A Vital Signs resource package providing background information and experimental protocols for the study of architectural glazing" (a 3.2 MB PDF): <http://arch.ced.berkeley.edu/vitalsigns/res/downloads/rp/glazing/glaz…> It goes far beyond what the window manufacturers share, and I’ve only begun to explore all the good background and detail information. >I guess my real issue here is how much of the extra heat that would >enter the sunspace if the shading was just under the glass rather than >over it would end up stored inside the structure. The sunspace ceiling >has insignificant thermal mass. If the same amount of solar radiation >is kept off of the thermal mass of the floor and of the concrete wall >between sunspace and living space, does it matter if the ceiling is >warmer during the day? >I don’t understand that question,

The sunspace is not used as living space during really hot weather, the doors to the rest of the house are closed. The only way for heat to get from the sunspace to living space is by conductance through the 8" concrete wall (and the closed doors) between them. When heat gain is desired, the sun shines on the wall. If the shading, whether above or below the glass, keeps direct sunlight off the wall, most of it stays relatively cool. It seems the overheated air trapped between interior shades and ceiling glass would not be likely to transfer much heat to the concrete far below. Unless there is significant re-radiation from the shading material…   > but as an aside, putting concrete in >a sunspace used for heating seems inefficient to me.

If I was starting over now, I’d probably use an active hydronic system. But for a totally passive heat gain system, the concrete wall has been quite satisfactory. I consider glazing the exterior surface to reduce convective and radiative heat loss at night, but pretty much there is already plenty of heat on any sunny winter day, and it lasts well through the night. > For summer shading, >you might be OK with aluminized (low-e) shadecloth under the glazing. >Or maybe white, to at least reflect most of the solar spectrum back up >through the glass before it turns into longwave heat. I think you want >to avoid anything dark or emissive that radiates heat to the lower part >of the sunspace.

Absolutely. >>Glass does not transmit IR well. >I thought clear glass did, around 85%, and that’s why low-E coatings >help to trap heat. >I think they help the glass reflect more and emit less heat. Without them, >glass (e = 0.88) absorbs radiated heat better, warms to a higher temperature, >and emits better from the opposite surface to objects on the other side of >the glass, but those coatings don’t reduce the already-low IR transmittance >(the original "greenhouse effect") much for glass, IMO. >Nick

Again this is confirmed in the "Vital Signs" PDF. Except they, and all of the window manufacturer data I’ve found, map the effect of low-E coatings between 0.7 and 3 um, above the range of sensible "fire heat" radiation. Of course the graphs they show are transmittance, not reflectance/emissivity, so maybe there is a reflectance effect at fire temperatures, it just doesn’t show up against the already low transmittance. This is certainly more complex than it was twenty years ago…   Loren

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> …just imagine the glare to your secound storey areas!….

It might also serve as a great landmark for aircraft navigating overhead – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > R’zenboom > Signal.ds >… >>Actually, I’d be tempted to sacrifice aesthetics for aluminized >>shadecloth if I thought it would maintain its reflectivity, but the >>reflectivity of my aluminized plastic bird-scare tape barely lasts the >>month required to mature and harvest fruit. And if it wasn’t waving in >>the wind, the collected road dust and grime would defeat it even >>sooner. (No summer rain in California.) >Have you thought about aluminized mylar just inside the glass? >It is (I think) reflective at most solar wavelengths, and would send a >maximum amount of radiation back out the glass? >It might not look that bad as seen through a layer of glass (you could >try a bit of aluminum foil and see how it looks).  Maybe it could be >rolled up on rollers at the high end of the sunspace when not in use. >  I think it would last a long time with the glass to filter out the >UV, and the reflective surface would be protected by the glass. >I have found these guys to be good for small quantities of aluminized >mylar:  http://www.mirrorsheeting.com/ >It seems like vents at the highest point in the sunspace on the ends >would also be good. >Gary >—-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet > News==—- >http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ > Newsgroups >—-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption > =—-

– Gary www.BuildItSolar.com "Build It Yourself" Solar Projects —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

…just imagine the glare to your secound storey areas!…. — R’zenboom Signal.ds

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > … > Actually, I’d be tempted to sacrifice aesthetics for aluminized > shadecloth if I thought it would maintain its reflectivity, but the > reflectivity of my aluminized plastic bird-scare tape barely lasts the > month required to mature and harvest fruit. And if it wasn’t waving in > the wind, the collected road dust and grime would defeat it even > sooner. (No summer rain in California.) > Have you thought about aluminized mylar just inside the glass? > It is (I think) reflective at most solar wavelengths, and would send a > maximum amount of radiation back out the glass? > It might not look that bad as seen through a layer of glass (you could > try a bit of aluminum foil and see how it looks).  Maybe it could be > rolled up on rollers at the high end of the sunspace when not in use. >   I think it would last a long time with the glass to filter out the > UV, and the reflective surface would be protected by the glass. > I have found these guys to be good for small quantities of aluminized > mylar:  http://www.mirrorsheeting.com/ > It seems like vents at the highest point in the sunspace on the ends > would also be good. > Gary > —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption

=—-

Response:

> Have you thought about aluminized mylar just inside the glass? > It is (I think) reflective at most solar wavelengths, and would send a > maximum amount of radiation back out the glass?

And, since the emissivity is low, radiate little down to the sunspace? Gary www.BuildItSolar.com "Build It Yourself" Solar Projects —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

… > Actually, I’d be tempted to sacrifice aesthetics for aluminized > shadecloth if I thought it would maintain its reflectivity, but the > reflectivity of my aluminized plastic bird-scare tape barely lasts the > month required to mature and harvest fruit. And if it wasn’t waving in > the wind, the collected road dust and grime would defeat it even > sooner. (No summer rain in California.)

Have you thought about aluminized mylar just inside the glass? It is (I think) reflective at most solar wavelengths, and would send a maximum amount of radiation back out the glass? It might not look that bad as seen through a layer of glass (you could try a bit of aluminum foil and see how it looks).  Maybe it could be rolled up on rollers at the high end of the sunspace when not in use.   I think it would last a long time with the glass to filter out the UV, and the reflective surface would be protected by the glass. I have found these guys to be good for small quantities of aluminized mylar:  http://www.mirrorsheeting.com/ It seems like vents at the highest point in the sunspace on the ends would also be good. Gary —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

>>A linear foot of 8′ tall x 8′ deep sunspace glazing covered all over >with 80% shadecloth would gain about 0.9×0.2×8(790+1940) = 3931 Btu >on an average 71.8 F June day in Phila. >So I’m guessing 790 btu/sqft comes in the vertical part and 1940 in >the horizontal part?

Yes. >And those values come from a table for a specific latitude?

And longitude (Phila.) The numbers are long-term averages from NREL’s Solar Radiation Data Manual for Buildings ("Blue Book"), which you can find on line. >The 0.2 is what gets through the shadecloth, but what is the 0.9?

That’s an approximate solar transmission for single pane glass. >And how does the ambient temperature affect this?

It doesn’t. >That doesn’t quantify re-radiation downward from the shadecloth, or >whether it is black or white or aluminized.

White and aluminized are better, but IIRC, glass is a poor transmitter for IR longer than 3 microns (T < 1300 F.) You can prove this by holding a glass pie plate between you and a hot electric stove burner. Then try some plastic food wrap… >I guess my real issue here is how much of the extra heat that would >enter the sunspace if the shading was just under the glass rather than >over it would end up stored inside the structure. The sunspace ceiling >has insignificant thermal mass. If the same amount of solar radiation >is kept off of the thermal mass of the floor and of the concrete wall >between sunspace and living space, does it matter if the ceiling is >warmer during the day?

I don’t understand that question, but as an aside, putting concrete in a sunspace used for heating seems inefficient to me. For summer shading, you might be OK with aluminized (low-e) shadecloth under the glazing. Or maybe white, to at least reflect most of the solar spectrum back up through the glass before it turns into longwave heat. I think you want to avoid anything dark or emissive that radiates heat to the lower part of the sunspace. The linearized radiation conductance between two objects at average temp T is 4×0.1714×10^-8(T+460)^3, eg 1.4 Btu/h-F-ft^2 (US R0.7) at T = 130 F. >The hot air in the top of the sunspace shouldn’t convect downward to >heat the floor and walls. It seems the only way for that heat to get >to the massive floor and walls would be by re-radiation from the shade >material.

With an R0.7 thermal resistance. Not much. >Having the shade material above the glass would reduce that a bit, but >the shade would be proportionately hotter – especially if >it was black synthetic.

Then again, shadecloth above could be freely air-cooled. >With some thermal mass and an 8′ x 1 ft^2 chimney, we might have >24hx16.6×1xsqrt(8)dT^1.5 = 3931, so dT = 2.3 F, and the sunspace >would only be 2.3 F warmer than outdoors. >Is that still for each lineal foot of your example sunspace?

Yes. >So that the chimney would need to extend the full length of the space?

Or be larger, if it handles more than a linear foot of sunspace. >I guess it is an enclosed chimney?

Yes. >My flue is 4′ wide by 8′ tall by 8" deep with a glazed front at >26 degrees off of vertical, and a suspended absorber plate in >the center, plus another 3′ vertical section above that.

That’s better, with more height and a glazed front. >Not a match for ambient temps above about 85.

No amount of this kind of venting and shading can make a sunspace cooler than the outdoors. Venting at night can, given thermal mass. >Glass does not transmit IR well. >I thought clear glass did, around 85%, and that’s why low-E coatings >help to trap heat.

I think they help the glass reflect more and emit less heat. Without them, glass (e = 0.88) absorbs radiated heat better, warms to a higher temperature, and emits better from the opposite surface to objects on the other side of the glass, but those coatings don’t reduce the already-low IR transmittance (the original "greenhouse effect") much for glass, IMO. Nick

Response:

>>Synthetic shadecloth was rejected for philosophical and visual reasons >What are the philosophical reasons? IIRC, greenhouse shadecloth is made >from old soda bottles…

I doubt it. Soda bottles are PET. Shadecloth is either HDPE or polypropylene. I haven’t seen any vendor claim any recycled content, not even of milk jugs or grocery bags. Granted, my objections are mainly aesthetic…   > 80% shade costs about 14 cents/ft^2 and lasts >10 years or so and might save the heat equivalent of 2 gallons of oil per >square foot per year.

Save heat? As in reduced air conditioning costs, I guess? This is an offgrid home, no AC. > A linear foot of 8′ tall x 8′ deep sunspace glazing >covered all over with 80% shadecloth would gain about 0.9×0.2×8(790+1940) >= 3931 Btu on an average 71.8 F June day in Phila.

So I’m guessing 790 btu/sqft comes in the vertical part and 1940 in the horizontal part? And those values come from a table for a specific latitude? The 0.2 is what gets through the shadecloth, but what is the 0.9? And how does the ambient temperature affect this? On a 72 degree day I have no problem – it is those 95 F days that prompt the shade project. That doesn’t quantify re-radiation downward from the shadecloth, or whether it is black or white or aluminized. Has someone demonstrated those are insignificant, or is there just not a formula sophisticated enough to include them? Actually, I’d be tempted to sacrifice aesthetics for aluminized shadecloth if I thought it would maintain its reflectivity, but the reflectivity of my aluminized plastic bird-scare tape barely lasts the month required to mature and harvest fruit. And if it wasn’t waving in the wind, the collected road dust and grime would defeat it even sooner. (No summer rain in California.) I guess my real issue here is how much of the extra heat that would enter the sunspace if the shading was just under the glass rather than over it would end up stored inside the structure. The sunspace ceiling has insignificant thermal mass. If the same amount of solar radiation is kept off of the thermal mass of the floor and of the concrete wall between sunspace and living space, does it matter if the ceiling is warmer during the day? The hot air in the top of the sunspace shouldn’t convect downward to heat the floor and walls. It seems the only way for that heat to get to the massive floor and walls would be by re-radiation from the shade material. Having the shade material above the glass would reduce that a bit, but the shade would be proportionately hotter – especially if it was black synthetic. > With some thermal mass >and an 8′ x 1 ft^2 chimney, we might have 24hx16.6×1xsqrt(8)dT^1.5 = 3931, >so dT = 2.3 F, and the sunspace would only be 2.3 F warmer than outdoors.

Is that still for each lineal foot of your example sunspace? So that the chimney would need to extend the full length of the space? I guess it is an enclosed chimney? My flue is 4′ wide by 8′ tall by 8" deep with a glazed front at 26 degrees off of vertical, and a suspended absorber plate in the center, plus another 3′ vertical section above that. Not a match for ambient temps above about 85. … >Glass does not transmit IR well.

I thought clear glass did, around 85%, and that’s why low-E coatings help to trap heat. Loren

Response:

>Synthetic shadecloth was rejected for philosophical and visual reasons

What are the philosophical reasons? IIRC, greenhouse shadecloth is made from old soda bottles… 80% shade costs about 14 cents/ft^2 and lasts 10 years or so and might save the heat equivalent of 2 gallons of oil per square foot per year. A linear foot of 8′ tall x 8′ deep sunspace glazing covered all over with 80% shadecloth would gain about 0.9×0.2×8(790+1940) = 3931 Btu on an average 71.8 F June day in Phila. With some thermal mass and an 8′ x 1 ft^2 chimney, we might have 24hx16.6×1xsqrt(8)dT^1.5 = 3931, so dT = 2.3 F, and the sunspace would only be 2.3 F warmer than outdoors. Then again, Big Fins under glass might make hot water for showers… I improved the aesthetics of black shadecloth over sunspace glazing by painting vertical white stripes on it with a narrow roller. You can also find shadecloth in light colors with flowery designs. >Since the previous shade material was more-or-less in contact with the >top of the glass, it was probably heating the glass surface by conduction…

Sure, altho warm air rises. >as well as radiating its own heat downward and blocking the reflection >of incoming heat from the glass.

Glass does not transmit IR well. It would still reflect under shadecloth, especially with a few spacers between the cloth and the glass. You might pull it tight over the spacers with a horizontal roller or bungee cords through grommets. >My Googling is not finding much about shading near-horizontal glazing.

You might look for a brise-soleil (sunbreaker), often found over the near-horizontal back windows of sports cars. You might build one from 4" thinwall PVC pipe sliced in half lengthwise with latex paint on top. Nick

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Question:

Ordinary Iraqis bear brunt of war Thursday, two car bombs went off in Baghdad. The Monitor looks at a family hit by a bombing 17 months ago. By Jill Carroll | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor BAGHDAD – Little Zeinab Yasseen was still asleep as the third Ramadan of her young life dawned. Like every night, she had drifted off listening to the chatter of the 26 relatives who also shared the house in Baghdad’s poor Al Shaab neighborhood. She awoke to her home collapsing on her. A car bomb exploded in front of the police station down the street, but it brought the roof down on Yasseen and her family. Somehow, everyone survived. But 17 months later, Zeinab still can’t move her legs. And the family is still recovering – emotionally, financially, and physically – from that instant of devastation. Each explosion of this kind deepens Iraqis’ doubts about the US and Iraqi government’s ability to bring order. But whatever each attack costs the this government in credibility, it is ordinary Iraqis who pay the highest price. Thursday’s bombings in Baghdad brought more of the same. After a steady decline in attacks during the last three months, insurgents launched a string of assaults this week, including coordinated car bombings, a reminder they continue to have the resources and expertise to strike apparently at will. Two car bombs went off a minute and a few hundred yards apart Thursday around 10 a.m. in the Baghdad neighborhood of Jadriyah. US soldiers at the scene said 14 Iraqis were killed and 38 were wounded. Among the dead were a 14-year-old and a 17-year-old, brothers who were working painting the street curb. The series of attacks may signal a return to the levels of attacks seen before the Jan. 30 elections, a pattern predicted by many US military analysts who say history shows that the average insurgency takes about 10 years to put down. Near the site of the first bomb, the back window of a car was blown out and lay on the ground littered with twisted black metal. A yellow decal on the cracked window read in Arabic: "In the name of God the compassionate, the merciful." The opening line of the first chapter of the Koran was meant to protect the car’s owner. For Zeinab’s family, Thursday’s attacks stir painful memories. The same October morning in 2003 when Zeinab was injured, four other car bombs ripped across Baghdad, killing some 43 people in one of the best orchestrated attacks up to that point. The day solidified the car bomb as the new weapon of choice in the escalating insurgency. And almost a year-and-a-half later, Zeinab’s family is still recovering. "The doctor said maybe it will get better," says Ashwaq Muhsin, Zeinab’s mother. She has sold her jewelry to put food on the table. "She needs new clothes," adds Mrs. Muhsin. The family – all 27 of them – now live in four 15-foot by 20-foot municipal buildings since their home was destroyed. Iraqi families like the Yasseens fall between the cracks of the meager state support networks that exist in Iraq. The US military offers compensation, but only for damage or death caused by the military. Victims of car bombings and other violence don’t qualify. Most humanitarian organizations fled Iraq when the United Nations headquarters was attacked with a car bomb in August 2003. Zeinab’s sister Nisreen, 4 years old at the time, was uninjured. The day after the blast, she sat in a dirty pink shirt watching the adults pick through the rubble, surrounded by the few things the family had been able to salvage: Coffee pots, rolled-up mattresses, bits of clothing, and cups. Now Nisreen is an energetic 5-year-old, bounding around the small room that is her house. Her younger sister, Zeinab, is now 4 but looks half that age and seems to have lost the ability to speak, as well as walk, since the explosion, her mother says. Since the bombing, some of the neighbors have rebuilt their homes, and to everyone’s horror, the police station has reopened. They don’t see it as a source of security, but rather a fresh target for the insurgents. The conservative Shiite family calls the people who set off the bomb "terrorists." But they also blame the American forces for not securing the country or giving them help. But most days, politics and religious ideology are far from their minds. Their focus is survival. The family had hoped before the bomb to raise themselves above the subsistence level by operating a taxi. "My son worked 10 years in Jordan to collect money for this car," says Jabbar Kathem Hassan, the 80-year-old patriarch of the family while pointing to a crumpled, blackened frame they had planned to use as taxi. "This was all we had and now it’s gone." Zeinab’s father points to the room with no heat, electricity or indoor plumbing that opens onto a small, walled-in courtyard. The packed dirt yard serves as bathroom and kitchen, explains Mr. Kathem, a tall, thin man with a deeply lined face. Wet clothes are strung above it. A spigot that is the only water source juts out of the ground near toothbrushes hanging in a faded red basket on the wall. Some 17 months after the bombing, his son, Hamid Hussein, provides the household’s only regular source of income. His teacher’s salary was recently doubled to 200,000 dinars a month, about $142. Most of that goes towards their huge hospital debts from that day. "The [extended] family helped us but couldn’t pay to treat everyone so some people still have glass in their bodies," says Hamid. Hamid had squirreled away $1,200 and bought the requisite gold jewelry so he could to marry his fianc

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> (8) All persons should be presumed innocent until proven guilty; they >>> should >>> not have to prove their innocence.  "Possession" should not be >>> automatically >>> equated with "intent" (to smuggle). >> Possession as you cross a border is absolute proof of intent to >> smuggle. > It’s certainly proof of having smuggled, but it’s not proof of intent. The > whole point of the word "intent" in this context is to separate what > actually happened from what the suspect meant to happen. > If you flick a spitwad at me and I dodge and slip and crack my head open, > that doesn’t mean you assaulted me with "intent to cause grievous bodily > harm", even though that’s what befell me. >>> (10) No citizen should be totally subject to a foreign government’s >>> jurisdiction, but should be repatriated for both/joint trial and >>> sentencing. >> Blithering nonsense. If you commit a crime on foreign soil they have an >> absolute right to punish you according to their laws. > No kidding. Think how much fun it would have been if the Lockerbie bombers > were caught that day and then had to be repatriated to Libya for "trial". > The Ozmaniacs appear to be especially agonized over the conviction and > sentencing of their young countrywoman (a feeling no doubt augmented by her > relative attractiveness along side most of the dope mules (except Flight > attendants) one encounters. > I grant them the prerogative if not the right to loud protests of shock and > anger, but have any of them stopped to consider that she may actually be > guilty as charged, whether with malice aforethought, led astray or simple > dumbass.  Folks who toke make light of simple posession, but when the > quantities on hand grow into wholesale distribution lots, many nations and > cultures are offended to the point of stern laws and stiff sentences.  The > addition of several pounds and some bulk to my luggage would elevate my > threshold of apprehension.  Did she let weight and volume pass unnoticed? > From the look and sound of the affair as presented more exhaustively in US > broadcast media than I would have expected, the evidence was fairly heard in > a reasonable facsimile of an tribunal.  Were the judge and the others > involved prejudiced as to her guilt?  Maybe so, but apparently they extended > every legal avenue and opportubity to the Antipodean outcry. > TMO

# If Corby is really guilty, then she must be the most incompetent drug smuggler ever; either that or fiendishly cunning if she thought her weeping act (?) and good looks would get her off.   Her case, as I’ve long maintained, is entirely different to the "Bali 9", who were caught with drugs strapped to their bodies, in an organised gang, smuggling a much more lethal drug, and admit to the crime.   On the issue of repatriation for trial, note that I specify a JOINT trial by the countries involved.  Naturally each nation is biased in favour of its own, but such joint action would also mitigate prejudice against foreigners.   The moral is clear: if you go to a foreign land, you do so at your own risk.  If guilty as charged, then "cop it sweet".  If innocent, then how do you prove it?   Some Indonesians held a protest rally, demanding the death penalty for Corby. What do they want?  She is already seen as a martyr by many here; do they want to confirm it?  Next time a tsunami hits Indonesia, what will Australians do – except laugh?

Response:

>>(8) All persons should be presumed innocent until proven guilty; they should >not have to prove their innocence.  "Possession" should not be automatically >equated with "intent" (to smuggle). > Possession as you cross a border is absolute proof of intent to > smuggle. Possesion above a certain amount is legally considered proof > of "intent to sell". That applies in almost every country in the world.

Legally speaking, you cannot "possess" something if you do not *know* that you have possession of it. I slip something into your luggage, and you do not possess it until you know that it is there. Frank

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> (8) All persons should be presumed innocent until proven guilty; they >> should >> not have to prove their innocence.  "Possession" should not be >> automatically >> equated with "intent" (to smuggle). > Possession as you cross a border is absolute proof of intent to > smuggle. > It’s certainly proof of having smuggled, but it’s not proof of intent. The > whole point of the word "intent" in this context is to separate what > actually happened from what the suspect meant to happen. > If you flick a spitwad at me and I dodge and slip and crack my head open, > that doesn’t mean you assaulted me with "intent to cause grievous bodily > harm", even though that’s what befell me. >> (10) No citizen should be totally subject to a foreign government’s >> jurisdiction, but should be repatriated for both/joint trial and >> sentencing. > Blithering nonsense. If you commit a crime on foreign soil they have an > absolute right to punish you according to their laws. > No kidding. Think how much fun it would have been if the Lockerbie bombers > were caught that day and then had to be repatriated to Libya for "trial".

The Ozmaniacs appear to be especially agonized over the conviction and sentencing of their young countrywoman (a feeling no doubt augmented by her relative attractiveness along side most of the dope mules (except Flight attendants) one encounters. I grant them the prerogative if not the right to loud protests of shock and anger, but have any of them stopped to consider that she may actually be guilty as charged, whether with malice aforethought, led astray or simple dumbass.  Folks who toke make light of simple posession, but when the quantities on hand grow into wholesale distribution lots, many nations and cultures are offended to the point of stern laws and stiff sentences.  The addition of several pounds and some bulk to my luggage would elevate my threshold of apprehension.  Did she let weight and volume pass unnoticed? From the look and sound of the affair as presented more exhaustively in US broadcast media than I would have expected, the evidence was fairly heard in a reasonable facsimile of an tribunal.  Were the judge and the others involved prejudiced as to her guilt?  Maybe so, but apparently they extended every legal avenue and opportubity to the Antipodean outcry. TMO

Response:

> (5) Don’t go to countries which have the death penalty or long prison > terms – unless on urgent business.  Take holidays elsewhere.

   That would include the USA, which can have sentences of up to 40 years, on a first offense, depending on what class of drug it is, and how much of it is found.

Response:

> # There are indeed several lessons to be learnt from both this example, and > that of Corby: > (1) To what extent is anyone’s luggage, stowed as cargo, the responsibility > of that person if subsequently found to contain contraband?

100%. Lock it. You’re responsible for it. If you want to claim that somebody tampered with it, you’d better have some proof. > (2) Never accept gifts just prior to boarding a flight, unless you can fully > trust the giver, and can inspect the gift thoroughly.

Absolutely. > (3) Airports must accept some responsibility to see that luggage isn’t > tampered with by staff, etc.

And they do. > (4) Take the minimum of cargo luggage and ensure it is securely locked and > parcelled.

Yes. > (5) Don’t go to countries which have the death penalty or long prison > terms – unless on urgent business.  Take holidays elsewhere.

Nonsense. Don’t do the crime and you don’t have to worry about doing the time. > (6) If a person has drugs strapped to their body, then they can’t deny being > a drug smuggler.  Anyone else should be given the benefit of the doubt, > depending on circumstances.

Wrong. Otherwise every smuggler justs checks a bag and, if caught, shrugs his shoulders. > (7) Lie Detectors mightn’t be totally reliable, but could be standard > equipment in a contraband trial.

Interesting concept. What happens if the unreliable lie detector tests shows that an innocent person who was simply nervous comes out as guilty? > (8) All persons should be presumed innocent until proven guilty; they should > not have to prove their innocence.  "Possession" should not be automatically > equated with "intent" (to smuggle).

Possession as you cross a border is absolute proof of intent to smuggle. Possesion above a certain amount is legally considered proof of "intent to sell". That applies in almost every country in the world. > (9) Any person who is "a drug smuggler" must have obtained the drugs from a > dealer or producer prior to flight, and be going to sell them to someone on > arrival.  That is, he/she must be part of a gang or syndicate, even if a > "mule".  This aspect should be investigated in any trial, and not ignored.

Are you saying that if the suspect won’t roll over and reveal who asked him to carry the drugs he gets off???? > (10) No citizen should be totally subject to a foreign government’s > jurisdiction, but should be repatriated for both/joint trial and sentencing.

Blithering nonsense. If you commit a crime on foreign soil they have an absolute right to punish you according to their laws. > This aspect is partly covered at present by "prisoner exchange programs" but > carried one step further.

Actually I think the prisoner exchange programs should be abolished.

Response:

>> (8) All persons should be presumed innocent until proven guilty; they should > not have to prove their innocence.  "Possession" should not be automatically > equated with "intent" (to smuggle). > Possession as you cross a border is absolute proof of intent to > smuggle.

It’s certainly proof of having smuggled, but it’s not proof of intent. The whole point of the word "intent" in this context is to separate what actually happened from what the suspect meant to happen. If you flick a spitwad at me and I dodge and slip and crack my head open, that doesn’t mean you assaulted me with "intent to cause grievous bodily harm", even though that’s what befell me. > (10) No citizen should be totally subject to a foreign government’s > jurisdiction, but should be repatriated for both/joint trial and sentencing. > Blithering nonsense. If you commit a crime on foreign soil they have an > absolute right to punish you according to their laws.

No kidding. Think how much fun it would have been if the Lockerbie bombers were caught that day and then had to be repatriated to Libya for "trial". miguel — Hit The Road! Photos from 36 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu Latest photos: Queens Day in Amsterdam; the Grand Canyon; Amman, Jordan

Response:

> Pasted from another newsgroup hereunder — re the Corby case. > I am neutral with this one, ‘cos I dont know the facts, but food for thought > here for ALL International travellers. No special treatments, no matter > where you are going to, or coming from. > — > ** Have a great day today, and and even better day tomorrow ** > Regards  .. Big Kev > To Email Check properties- drop the second "s" in "travsubs"

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If you can, I suggest anyone traveling into or out of Australia bring carry > on luggage only. Or risk 10 or 20, life in goal or even the death penalty > until all airport security is updated. > If you thought terrorism was a problem this is much worse. At least if > someone plants a bomb on a plane, that’s it, you’re dead. A lot better than > spending the rest of your life in a stinking Asian goal living on nasi > goreng. > Chika Honda a young Japanese tourist arrived in Australia after a stop over > in Malaysia in 1992. During their stop over their luggage, which had been > left in the businessman’s van, which had been stolen while they were having > dinner. The businessman was very apologetic, and the following morning gave > each of > them replacement suitcases. They found heroin in the suitcase when she > arrived in Melbourne. She did 10 years > There was a letter in last Saturday’s Melbourne Age that succinctly > described their situation: > Pity Schapelle – but remember the ‘Japanese Five’ > With Schapelle Corby’s verdict looming, the Australian public is > preparing to be outraged at the injustice of the Indonesian judicial > system. However, we should reflect on our own treatment of > non-Australians arrested for apparent drug trafficking in our own > country. I refer to the group of Japanese tourists who were arrested at > Melbourne Airport in 1992. Where were all of the voices screaming for > justice when this tragic case unfolded? > The group’s nightmare began with a holiday that they claimed had been > organised by a Malaysian businessman who had given it as a gift. > The trip, they said, was to be a way of compensation for a car accident > in which one of the group members, Yoshio Katsuno, had been involved > while on a business trip to Kuala Lumpur. Yoshio had spent two weeks in > hospital in KL, and accepting this gift from was not an unusual matter > in both cultures. The businessman suggested that Yoshio arrange a group > of friends to travel with him. > According to their story, Yoshio and the rest of the group were > instructed to meet the businessman in Kuala Lumpur the day before they > were to travel to Australia. He met them at the airport and took them > out to dinner that evening. Their luggage, which had been left in the > businessman’s van, had been stolen while they were having dinner. The > businessman was very apologetic, and the following morning gave each of > them replacement suitcases – a gesture which was interpreted as an act > of kindness. Unknown to them – so they claimed – the new suitcases had > false bottoms that contained, in total, 13 kilograms of heroin. > When the group touched down at Melbourne Airport the authorities were > waiting for them. They had been tipped off to a large drug haul that was > entering the country. > The group was taken in and interrogated with none of them comprehending > the gravity of their situation because they did not speak a word of > English. Their supporters claim that they were not provided with > competent interpreters at the time of the police interviews. This > resulted in the case being weighted very heavily against them when it > came to their trial. > Five of the group were arrested and charged with drug trafficking and > two returned home because their suitcases did not contain any drugs. > Four of them served 10 years and one remains in prison, due to be > released in 2006. > It has been suggested that the authorities were tipped off about the > group of Japanese tourists in order to allow another bigger drug haul to > enter the country. Whatever the real story is, we cannot escape the fact > that these people were dealt with in a way that would make Australians > scream for justice if it was one of their own. > To assume that possession equals ownership is quite obviously not > peculiar to the Indonesian judicial system. > We can feel outrage for Schapelle – but we should remember the adage > about people in glass houses not throwing stones. > — Caitriona Prendergast, Black Rock > >>Yes, interesting case.  For me, a really disturbing element is the way > that > >>so many potential case-solving items of evidence magically disappeared > or > >>were destroyed.  Staggering is the way that security tapes were wiped by > >>Qantas, that the AFP didn’t respond to crucial information and other > items > >>of airport concern were unavailable – baggage weight, customs > information > >>etc. > > this is conspiracy theory nonsense. > You utterly worthless dopey bastard! > Obviously happy to see an Aussie lass face an Indonesian > firing squad despite the fact that she may well be an > unwitting victim of lax Qantas security. > > the tapes usually contain nothing of significance and wiping them for > > reuse after a few days is entirely waranted. > > weights are to the nearest kilo for weight and balance purposes only. > > if the law wants these items retained for x years then the law needs > > to be written, but to accuse Qantas of underhanded actions is absurd. > > I suppose if evidence was seen in floor litter you’d want all the > > floor sweepings retained in perpetuity as well. hell why stop there, > > dont clean the toilets in the terminals in case the seats have drug > > residues. clearly absurd eh? > > and what about qantas suing you for slander? > > the law is a double edged sword. be careful you dont cut yourself on > > it. > > Stealth Pilot

# There are indeed several lessons to be learnt from both this example, and that of Corby: (1) To what extent is anyone’s luggage, stowed as cargo, the responsibility of that person if subsequently found to contain contraband? (2) Never accept gifts just prior to boarding a flight, unless you can fully trust the giver, and can inspect the gift thoroughly. (3) Airports must accept some responsibility to see that luggage isn’t tampered with by staff, etc. (4) Take the minimum of cargo luggage and ensure it is securely locked and parcelled. (5) Don’t go to countries which have the death penalty or long prison terms – unless on urgent business.  Take holidays elsewhere. (6) If a person has drugs strapped to their body, then they can’t deny being a drug smuggler.  Anyone else should be given the benefit of the doubt, depending on circumstances. (7) Lie Detectors mightn’t be totally reliable, but could be standard equipment in a contraband trial. (8) All persons should be presumed innocent until proven guilty; they should not have to prove their innocence.  "Possession" should not be automatically equated with "intent" (to smuggle). (9) Any person who is "a drug smuggler" must have obtained the drugs from a dealer or producer prior to flight, and be going to sell them to someone on arrival.  That is, he/she must be part of a gang or syndicate, even if a "mule".  This aspect should be investigated in any trial, and not ignored. (10) No citizen should be totally subject to a foreign government’s jurisdiction, but should be repatriated for both/joint trial and sentencing. This aspect is partly covered at present by "prisoner exchange programs" but carried one step further. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

>>It’s a wonder how fast you can get cycled through Indon >>’security’ hey? > Would be interesting to hold a race, and see what gets you through first – a > "…please extend every courtesy…" letter, or US$100. > My bet is on a pair of Ben Franklins. > Wow you got ripped off – $3 to $5 will usually do it !!

Agh, just put it on the T&Es – and claim you lost the receipt.

Response:

Pasted from another newsgroup hereunder — re the Corby case. I am neutral with this one, ‘cos I dont know the facts, but food for thought here for ALL International travellers. No special treatments, no matter where you are going to, or coming from. — ** Have a great day today, and and even better day tomorrow ** Regards  .. Big Kev To Email Check properties- drop the second "s" in "travsubs" If you can, I suggest anyone traveling into or out of Australia bring carry on luggage only. Or risk 10 or 20, life in goal or even the death penalty until all airport security is updated. If you thought terrorism was a problem this is much worse. At least if someone plants a bomb on a plane, that’s it, you’re dead. A lot better than spending the rest of your life in a stinking Asian goal living on nasi goreng. Chika Honda a young Japanese tourist arrived in Australia after a stop over in Malaysia in 1992. During their stop over their luggage, which had been left in the businessman’s van, which had been stolen while they were having dinner. The businessman was very apologetic, and the following morning gave each of them replacement suitcases. They found heroin in the suitcase when she arrived in Melbourne. She did 10 years There was a letter in last Saturday’s Melbourne Age that succinctly described their situation: Pity Schapelle – but remember the ‘Japanese Five’ With Schapelle Corby’s verdict looming, the Australian public is preparing to be outraged at the injustice of the Indonesian judicial system. However, we should reflect on our own treatment of non-Australians arrested for apparent drug trafficking in our own country. I refer to the group of Japanese tourists who were arrested at Melbourne Airport in 1992. Where were all of the voices screaming for justice when this tragic case unfolded? The group’s nightmare began with a holiday that they claimed had been organised by a Malaysian businessman who had given it as a gift. The trip, they said, was to be a way of compensation for a car accident in which one of the group members, Yoshio Katsuno, had been involved while on a business trip to Kuala Lumpur. Yoshio had spent two weeks in hospital in KL, and accepting this gift from was not an unusual matter in both cultures. The businessman suggested that Yoshio arrange a group of friends to travel with him. According to their story, Yoshio and the rest of the group were instructed to meet the businessman in Kuala Lumpur the day before they were to travel to Australia. He met them at the airport and took them out to dinner that evening. Their luggage, which had been left in the businessman’s van, had been stolen while they were having dinner. The businessman was very apologetic, and the following morning gave each of them replacement suitcases – a gesture which was interpreted as an act of kindness. Unknown to them – so they claimed – the new suitcases had false bottoms that contained, in total, 13 kilograms of heroin. When the group touched down at Melbourne Airport the authorities were waiting for them. They had been tipped off to a large drug haul that was entering the country. The group was taken in and interrogated with none of them comprehending the gravity of their situation because they did not speak a word of English. Their supporters claim that they were not provided with competent interpreters at the time of the police interviews. This resulted in the case being weighted very heavily against them when it came to their trial. Five of the group were arrested and charged with drug trafficking and two returned home because their suitcases did not contain any drugs. Four of them served 10 years and one remains in prison, due to be released in 2006. It has been suggested that the authorities were tipped off about the group of Japanese tourists in order to allow another bigger drug haul to enter the country. Whatever the real story is, we cannot escape the fact that these people were dealt with in a way that would make Australians scream for justice if it was one of their own. To assume that possession equals ownership is quite obviously not peculiar to the Indonesian judicial system. We can feel outrage for Schapelle – but we should remember the adage about people in glass houses not throwing stones. — Caitriona Prendergast, Black Rock

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Yes, interesting case.  For me, a really disturbing element is the way that >>so many potential case-solving items of evidence magically disappeared or >>were destroyed.  Staggering is the way that security tapes were wiped by >>Qantas, that the AFP didn’t respond to crucial information and other items >>of airport concern were unavailable – baggage weight, customs information >>etc. > this is conspiracy theory nonsense. > You utterly worthless dopey bastard! > Obviously happy to see an Aussie lass face an Indonesian > firing squad despite the fact that she may well be an > unwitting victim of lax Qantas security. > the tapes usually contain nothing of significance and wiping them for > reuse after a few days is entirely waranted. > weights are to the nearest kilo for weight and balance purposes only. > if the law wants these items retained for x years then the law needs > to be written, but to accuse Qantas of underhanded actions is absurd. > I suppose if evidence was seen in floor litter you’d want all the > floor sweepings retained in perpetuity as well. hell why stop there, > dont clean the toilets in the terminals in case the seats have drug > residues. clearly absurd eh? > and what about qantas suing you for slander? > the law is a double edged sword. be careful you dont cut yourself on > it. > Stealth Pilot

Response:

Day release? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> You got that bit right – I had more sense when I was there >> on several occasions, on both business and pleasure, than to >> aquaplane in tropical downpours like you did. Or in any >> other way be a person of interest to the authorities. >> And none of your adventure below has any relevance >> whatsoever to the plight of Ms Corby or aviation security. > and not one ounce of your diatribe will be of relevance either. > If I were prime minister I’d be pulling a large chunk of our billion > dollar aid out until their legal system showed signs of first world > acceptability. > the international terminals would be swarming with federal police. > a 100% audit of all australian terminals, and if Qantas management > have been turning a blind eye to drug couriering then they lose the > licence to fly within australia. > but as frustrating as this is neither of us is in a position to do > anything but give the local member an earfull. > lets hope that RT’s reading of the tealeaves isnt correct. > Stealth Pilot > Giving Indonesia a billion dollars is completely stupid this "aid" is > already being used for ethnic cleansing by Indonesia > The best Australia could and should do is sink Indonesia’s navy and > bomb Jakarta > Indonesia will delight in executing a innocent Australian > Petzl > — > The ONLY email address you will EVER need > <http://www.spamcop.net/ces/individuals.shtml> > SpamCop Emaill service for a spamfree inbox

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You got that bit right – I had more sense when I was there >on several occasions, on both business and pleasure, than to >aquaplane in tropical downpours like you did. Or in any >other way be a person of interest to the authorities. >And none of your adventure below has any relevance >whatsoever to the plight of Ms Corby or aviation security. >and not one ounce of your diatribe will be of relevance either. >If I were prime minister I’d be pulling a large chunk of our billion >dollar aid out until their legal system showed signs of first world >acceptability. >the international terminals would be swarming with federal police. >a 100% audit of all australian terminals, and if Qantas management >have been turning a blind eye to drug couriering then they lose the >licence to fly within australia. >but as frustrating as this is neither of us is in a position to do >anything but give the local member an earfull. >lets hope that RT’s reading of the tealeaves isnt correct. >Stealth Pilot

Giving Indonesia a billion dollars is completely stupid this "aid" is already being used for ethnic cleansing by Indonesia The best Australia could and should do is sink Indonesia’s navy and bomb Jakarta Indonesia will delight in executing a innocent Australian Petzl — The ONLY email address you will EVER need <http://www.spamcop.net/ces/individuals.shtml> SpamCop Emaill service for a spamfree inbox

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Touche! >Hiya big nose! >It’s a wonder how fast you can get cycled through Indon >’security’ hey? > Would be interesting to hold a race, and see what gets you through first – a > "…please extend every courtesy…" letter, or US$100. > My bet is on a pair of Ben Franklins.

Wow you got ripped off – $3 to $5 will usually do it !!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Well, this is obviously some sort of innocent mistake.  I suppose I’m up >for some sort of ‘fine’ for this?  How much would that be?" > Boy, does that bring back memories of a trip through Jakarta a few years back. > Was in Singapore and had to make an unplanned side trip into Indonesia. Didn’t > realize that my passport, although still valid for the duration, had less than 6 > months to go. > Spent an hour in a windowless office with a guy in a green military uniform > showing him my invitation and having a long meaningless conversation until the > light finally went on as to what he was looking for. > And then discovering that the 3 ATM machines in the airport were all broken.

They usually ask "How can I help you ?" translation "Give some US dollars or stay here all f*%#ing day !"

Response:

>You got that bit right – I had more sense when I was there >on several occasions, on both business and pleasure, than to >aquaplane in tropical downpours like you did. Or in any >other way be a person of interest to the authorities. >And none of your adventure below has any relevance >whatsoever to the plight of Ms Corby or aviation security.

and not one ounce of your diatribe will be of relevance either. If I were prime minister I’d be pulling a large chunk of our billion dollar aid out until their legal system showed signs of first world acceptability. the international terminals would be swarming with federal police. a 100% audit of all australian terminals, and if Qantas management have been turning a blind eye to drug couriering then they lose the licence to fly within australia. but as frustrating as this is neither of us is in a position to do anything but give the local member an earfull. lets hope that RT’s reading of the tealeaves isnt correct. Stealth Pilot

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>Yes, interesting case.  For me, a really disturbing element is the way that >>>so many potential case-solving items of evidence magically disappeared or >>>were destroyed.  Staggering is the way that security tapes were wiped by >>>Qantas, that the AFP didn’t respond to crucial information and other items >>>of airport concern were unavailable – baggage weight, customs information >>>etc. >>this is conspiracy theory nonsense. >You utterly worthless dopey bastard! >Obviously happy to see an Aussie lass face an Indonesian >firing squad despite the fact that she may well be an >unwitting victim of lax Qantas security. > totally incorrect. > I have seen the indonesian legal system first hand.

And? > unlike you I > think.

You got that bit right – I had more sense when I was there on several occasions, on both business and pleasure, than to aquaplane in tropical downpours like you did. Or in any other way be a person of interest to the authorities. And none of your adventure below has any relevance whatsoever to the plight of Ms Corby or aviation security. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->indonesia is a dangerous place. > you will never see me set foot in any part of indonesia, bali etc > willingly again and I would not ever recommend anyone going to > indonesia as a tourist.. > australians have so little idea of how significantly different their > legal system actually is. > all I did was prang a truck in a monsoonal downpour. it aquaplaned as > I tried to avoid a bicycle taxi sitting in the middle of a major road. > indonesians in the country are some of the most wonderfully sincere > people you could ever meet. in the corruption of the big cities is > something again. > Stealth( Bashir’s sentence was a joke) Pilot

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Yes, interesting case.  For me, a really disturbing element is the way that >>so many potential case-solving items of evidence magically disappeared or >>were destroyed.  Staggering is the way that security tapes were wiped by >>Qantas, that the AFP didn’t respond to crucial information and other items >>of airport concern were unavailable – baggage weight, customs information >>etc. > this is conspiracy theory nonsense. >You utterly worthless dopey bastard! >Obviously happy to see an Aussie lass face an Indonesian >firing squad despite the fact that she may well be an >unwitting victim of lax Qantas security.

totally incorrect. I have seen the indonesian legal system first hand. unlike you I think. indonesia is a dangerous place. you will never see me set foot in any part of indonesia, bali etc willingly again and I would not ever recommend anyone going to indonesia as a tourist.. australians have so little idea of how significantly different their legal system actually is. all I did was prang a truck in a monsoonal downpour. it aquaplaned as I tried to avoid a bicycle taxi sitting in the middle of a major road. indonesians in the country are some of the most wonderfully sincere people you could ever meet. in the corruption of the big cities is something again. Stealth( Bashir’s sentence was a joke) Pilot

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> >"Well, this is obviously some sort of innocent mistake.  I suppose I’m up >for some sort of ‘fine’ for this?  How much would that be?" > Boy, does that bring back memories of a trip through Jakarta a few years back. > Was in Singapore and had to make an unplanned side trip into Indonesia. Didn’t > realize that my passport, although still valid for the duration, had less than 6 > months to go. > Spent an hour in a windowless office with a guy in a green military uniform > showing him my invitation and having a long meaningless conversation until the > light finally went on as to what he was looking for.

When in Rome… > And then discovering that the 3 ATM machines in the airport were all

broken. Handy hint for travelling in SE Asia – always keep US$100 in your passport wallet.  You never know when it will come in handy….

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>"Well, this is obviously some sort of innocent mistake.  I suppose I’m up >for some sort of ‘fine’ for this?  How much would that be?"

Boy, does that bring back memories of a trip through Jakarta a few years back. Was in Singapore and had to make an unplanned side trip into Indonesia. Didn’t realize that my passport, although still valid for the duration, had less than 6 months to go. Spent an hour in a windowless office with a guy in a green military uniform showing him my invitation and having a long meaningless conversation until the light finally went on as to what he was looking for. And then discovering that the 3 ATM machines in the airport were all broken.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Touche! > Hiya big nose! > It’s a wonder how fast you can get cycled through Indon > ’security’ hey? > Would be interesting to hold a race, and see what gets you through first – > a > "…please extend every courtesy…" letter, or US$100. > My bet is on a pair of Ben Franklins.

Yeah.  I’ve noticed the "Please extend…" doesn’t work that well any more.  A couple of dead presidents will do the trick, although given the track record of those monkeys, a bag or two of scag will work nicely as well.  It doesn’t take a lot of work to turn up a hundred deals reported over the last 10 years. They are really not nice folk.  I’m going to be miffed if that young girl gets smoked. I’m expecting Downer to be as forceful as ever….. My best (and condolences) to her upstairs Mark Addinall. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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> Touche! > Hiya big nose! > It’s a wonder how fast you can get cycled through Indon > ’security’ hey?

Would be interesting to hold a race, and see what gets you through first – a "…please extend every courtesy…" letter, or US$100. My bet is on a pair of Ben Franklins.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Her greatest mistake was not leaving her bags unattended, but upon the > > Indo > > customs droid accusing her of ferrying dope, failing to ask… > > "Well, this is obviously some sort of innocent mistake.  I suppose I’m > up > > for some sort of ‘fine’ for this?  How much would that be?" > "I’m here to pick up my friend.  Mr. Packer… > How much will a car cost?" > Touche!

Hiya big nose! It’s a wonder how fast you can get cycled through Indon ’security’ hey? Mark Addinall. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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> Her greatest mistake was not leaving her bags unattended, but upon the > Indo > customs droid accusing her of ferrying dope, failing to ask… > "Well, this is obviously some sort of innocent mistake.  I suppose I’m up > for some sort of ‘fine’ for this?  How much would that be?" > "I’m here to pick up my friend.  Mr. Packer… > How much will a car cost?"

Touche!

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> Obviously happy to see an Aussie lass face an Indonesian > firing squad despite the fact that she may well be an > unwitting victim of lax Qantas security. > Her greatest mistake was not leaving her bags unattended, but upon the > Indo > customs droid accusing her of ferrying dope, failing to ask… > "Well, this is obviously some sort of innocent mistake.  I suppose I’m up > for some sort of ‘fine’ for this?  How much would that be?"

"I’m here to pick up my friend.  Mr. Packer… How much will a car cost?" Mark Addinall. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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> Obviously happy to see an Aussie lass face an Indonesian > firing squad despite the fact that she may well be an > unwitting victim of lax Qantas security.

Her greatest mistake was not leaving her bags unattended, but upon the Indo customs droid accusing her of ferrying dope, failing to ask… "Well, this is obviously some sort of innocent mistake.  I suppose I’m up for some sort of ‘fine’ for this?  How much would that be?"

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>>Yes, interesting case.  For me, a really disturbing element is the way that >so many potential case-solving items of evidence magically disappeared or >were destroyed.  Staggering is the way that security tapes were wiped by >Qantas, that the AFP didn’t respond to crucial information and other items >of airport concern were unavailable – baggage weight, customs information >etc. > this is conspiracy theory nonsense.

You utterly worthless dopey bastard! Obviously happy to see an Aussie lass face an Indonesian firing squad despite the fact that she may well be an unwitting victim of lax Qantas security. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> the tapes usually contain nothing of significance and wiping them for > reuse after a few days is entirely waranted. > weights are to the nearest kilo for weight and balance purposes only. > if the law wants these items retained for x years then the law needs > to be written, but to accuse Qantas of underhanded actions is absurd. > I suppose if evidence was seen in floor litter you’d want all the > floor sweepings retained in perpetuity as well. hell why stop there, > dont clean the toilets in the terminals in case the seats have drug > residues. clearly absurd eh? > and what about qantas suing you for slander? > the law is a double edged sword. be careful you dont cut yourself on > it. > Stealth Pilot

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