Question:
Hi everyone, Are there any building codes or legal standards in Massachusetts that govern how much noise a wall must block in an apartment or a condo? I thought there may be codes that dictate that a wall or floor must not let sounds less than some decibels pass through. I’m renting an apartment where I believe the floor/ceiling is terribly inadequate for blocking sound from my upstairs neighbors, and the landlord is unwilling to do anything about it. The State Sanitary Code mandates that landlords provide a structure "suitable for its intended use" (in my case, a bedroom to sleep in without hearing footsteps, phone, conversations, TV and stereo), but there is nothing specific about sound levels. I intend to request a visit from an inspector from the Board of Health, but I thought I’d do some homework beforehand. I’d appreciate any advice, tips, and comments. — Sleepless in Quincy, MA
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi everyone, > Are there any building codes or legal standards in Massachusetts that govern > how much noise a wall must block in an apartment or a condo? I thought > there may be codes that dictate that a wall or floor must not let sounds > less than some decibels pass through. > I’m renting an apartment where I believe the floor/ceiling is terribly > inadequate for blocking sound from my upstairs neighbors, and the landlord > is unwilling to do anything about it. The State Sanitary Code mandates that > landlords provide a structure "suitable for its intended use" (in my case, a > bedroom to sleep in without hearing footsteps, phone, conversations, TV and > stereo), but there is nothing specific about sound levels. I intend to > request a visit from an inspector from the Board of Health, but I thought > I’d do some homework beforehand. > I’d appreciate any advice, tips, and comments. > — Sleepless in Quincy, MA
You probably do have a standard but if the building is older than the standard it is probably grandfathered in.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi everyone, > Are there any building codes or legal standards in Massachusetts that govern > how much noise a wall must block in an apartment or a condo? I thought > there may be codes that dictate that a wall or floor must not let sounds > less than some decibels pass through. > I’m renting an apartment where I believe the floor/ceiling is terribly > inadequate for blocking sound from my upstairs neighbors, and the landlord > is unwilling to do anything about it. The State Sanitary Code mandates that > landlords provide a structure "suitable for its intended use" (in my case, a > bedroom to sleep in without hearing footsteps, phone, conversations, TV and > stereo), but there is nothing specific about sound levels. I intend to > request a visit from an inspector from the Board of Health, but I thought > I’d do some homework beforehand. > I’d appreciate any advice, tips, and comments. > — Sleepless in Quincy, MA
Is this an apartment in a multi-family house, or in a complex?
Response:
> > Are there any building codes or legal standards in Massachusetts that > govern how much noise a wall must block in an apartment or a condo? > Is this an apartment in a multi-family house, or in a complex?
It’s in an apartment building, containing about 21 units. — – John
Response:
> > Are there any building codes or legal standards in Massachusetts that > > govern how much noise a wall must block in an apartment or a condo? > Is this an apartment in a multi-family house, or in a complex? > It’s in an apartment building, containing about 21 units.
I lived in Wollaston (part of Quincy) in a multi-family house a couple of years ago. Alot of those old houses are just horrible when it comes to noise. I swear I could hear my upstairs neighbor brushing her teeth. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> – John
Response:
> I lived in Wollaston (part of Quincy) in a multi-family house a couple of > years ago. Alot of those old houses are just horrible when it comes to > noise. I swear I could hear my upstairs neighbor brushing her teeth.
I can just about hear my neighbors brush their teeth. At one point the landlord had to re-stucco my bathroom because water leakage had damaged the ceiling. I saw then that there is about a foot of airspace between my ceiling and their hardwood floor. I saw light coming through their hardwood slats. It’s no wonder I can hear everything they do. Strangely and fortunately, it was fine for two years but a few weeks ago new tenants moved in and I can hear everything they do. I suppose the earlier tenants were quiet and they had rugs. The new tenants are college students and apparently do not have any rugs. Through a searchable archive of noise-related news at www.nonoise.org I found a Boston Globe article on this issue. Actually, it’s a Q&A column in the real estate section. The columnist indicates that it’s unlikely for a tenant to win in this situation, and recommending moving out. The columnist noted that although MA sanitary code says that the landlord must provide a structure suitable for "quiet enjoyment" there is no specific code about the noise levels that the structure must contain. I could test this law in the courts, but I’m not sure if I have the energy for it. -John
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Sorry John, but it sounds like you expect the landlord(s) to fill that >> space between apartments with something to kill the sound. That’s a >> bit outlandish. How can you expect landlords to do so and still keep >> their rents close to prsent? They’d have no choice but to increase >> your rent significantly. >I don’t see how you can conclude what they can or cannot afford to do. The >landlord may be making a lot of profit because they own a cheap building and >charge a high rent. > And they may own an expensive building. Whatever their profit margin > is not the debate.
I believe you brought up their profit margin when you asked how a landlord could make these renovations without raising their rent. If they’re enjoying a very high profit margin then they could do so very easily. Q.E.D. If the landlord’s profit margin is not at issue, you should not have brought it up.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > Are there any building codes or legal standards in Massachusetts that > > > govern how much noise a wall must block in an apartment or a condo? > > Is this an apartment in a multi-family house, or in a complex? > It’s in an apartment building, containing about 21 units. > I lived in Wollaston (part of Quincy) in a multi-family house a couple of > years ago. Alot of those old houses are just horrible when it comes to > noise. I swear I could hear my upstairs neighbor brushing her teeth.
A false ceiling with anechoic foam on top?
Response:
>I can just about hear my neighbors brush their teeth. At one point the >landlord had to re-stucco my bathroom because water leakage had damaged the >ceiling. I saw then that there is about a foot of airspace between my >ceiling and their hardwood floor. I saw light coming through their hardwood >slats. It’s no wonder I can hear everything they do. Strangely and >fortunately, it was fine for two years but a few weeks ago new tenants moved >in and I can hear everything they do. I suppose the earlier tenants were >quiet and they had rugs. The new tenants are college students and >apparently do not have any rugs.
Welcome to apartment life where your neighbors are next to you. If you didn’t hear noise before and now you hear noise – its your new neighbors. I manage apts and can tell you first hand that there is a difference between people. In your lease – I assume you have one – there is a clause about quite enjoyment. The people above you are not abiding by that clause – which I will assume is in their lease also. I think that you would accomplish more by speaking to them in a nice way. Many times people upstairs have no clue as to how loud they are. I have actually had the upstairs tenants stand in the lower apt and walked myself loudly. Most of the time people will accomidate others. If they are really loud then the landlord should be told. As for the ceiling if this is only the bathroom then maybe a dropped ceiling with the insulation would help. It will not solve all if your neighbors are still noisy. To insulate old buildings for noise is a huge amount of work. And then new buildings are not any quieter unless they are the ones made out of masonary. Walls are usually separated by a 2 * 4 with a single layer of sheet rock or laths. Both walls share the same 2 * 4 so noise carries. There is rarely anything between walls. In new construction there is a fire code piece of sheetrock which is a tad thinker. In your case its between floors. Generally there is a supporting floor joist that is around 16 inches on center. In those 16 inch cavaties there is just air which makes noise echo. On the top there is supposed to be a minimum of 1.5 inches total wood. That is where the noise starts and echos into the cavity. Its almost like a drum. Your best bet is to talk to your neighbors. And get the exact noise clause off your lease before you talk to them. A.
Response:
> Sorry John, but it sounds like you expect the landlord(s) to fill that > space between apartments with something to kill the sound. That’s a > bit outlandish. How can you expect landlords to do so and still keep > their rents close to prsent? They’d have no choice but to increase > your rent significantly.
I don’t see how you can conclude what they can or cannot afford to do. The landlord may be making a lot of profit because they own a cheap building and charge a high rent. I think it’s reasonable to expect a landlord to provide a structure that keeps out low noises like footsteps, phones, conversations and low volume TV. -John
Response:
Keep in mind that whatever code applies to a building may be grandfathered in, so if that building was put up in the 1920’s, your use may be subject to the use codes from when it was either built or last modified. I’ve lived in some real electrical deathtraps that were perfectly legal cause that was code when they were built. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi everyone, >Are there any building codes or legal standards in Massachusetts that govern >how much noise a wall must block in an apartment or a condo? I thought >there may be codes that dictate that a wall or floor must not let sounds >less than some decibels pass through. >I’m renting an apartment where I believe the floor/ceiling is terribly >inadequate for blocking sound from my upstairs neighbors, and the landlord >is unwilling to do anything about it. The State Sanitary Code mandates that >landlords provide a structure "suitable for its intended use" (in my case, a >bedroom to sleep in without hearing footsteps, phone, conversations, TV and >stereo), but there is nothing specific about sound levels. I intend to >request a visit from an inspector from the Board of Health, but I thought >I’d do some homework beforehand. >I’d appreciate any advice, tips, and comments. >– Sleepless in Quincy, MA
Response:
> As they say, you gets what you pay for. If he can’t stand the > apartment now, get a better place.
Can we assume then that since he’s getting less quiet than he used to, his rent has gone down? (Or maybe since he’s getting more noise and more bother, his rent should have gone up.) — Iacta alea est
Response:
>> As they say, you gets what you pay for. If he can’t stand the > apartment now, get a better place. > Can we assume then that since he’s getting less quiet than he >used to, his rent has gone down? (Or maybe since he’s getting >more noise and more bother, his rent should have gone up.)
You can assume anything you wish. It’s unlikely, but go ahead. I’ve lived in apartments where the folks upstairs were so quiet I never heard more than an occasional bump. When they moved, the new neighbors were the original noise factory. So I moved. Found another place with reasonable peace. Not paying much more either. My main point is that there are certain things in life beyond immediate control. Loud neighbors is one of them. Try to get the neighbors to settle down, and if nothing else works, find a new place or learn to tolerate it. 9-11-01 Never forget!! "Let’s Roll!"
Response:
> I think it’s reasonable to expect a landlord to provide a structure that > keeps out low noises like footsteps, phones, conversations and low volume > TV.
It maybe reasonable, but there is no laws specifying it.
Response:
>> Sorry John, but it sounds like you expect the landlord(s) to fill that > space between apartments with something to kill the sound. That’s a > bit outlandish. How can you expect landlords to do so and still keep > their rents close to prsent? They’d have no choice but to increase > your rent significantly. >I don’t see how you can conclude what they can or cannot afford to do. The >landlord may be making a lot of profit because they own a cheap building and >charge a high rent.
And they may own an expensive building. Whatever their profit margin is not the debate. >I think it’s reasonable to expect a landlord to provide a structure that >keeps out low noises like footsteps, phones, conversations and low volume >TV.
I think it’s unreasonable to expect a landlord to be expected or required to suddenly have to do major renovations on the building because the guy next door can hear neighbors blaring the TV, pacing in boots, telling jokes with roommates, or banging some bimbo. If it’s such a distraction, ask the neighbors (and have the landlord ask them) to keep it down. Or move. Or, ask for the "renovations", and come up with the big bump in your rent to cover the costs. As they say, you gets what you pay for. If he can’t stand the apartment now, get a better place. 9-11-01 Never forget!! "Let’s Roll!"
Response:
(Removed "alt.legal" from Newsgroups line.) >Also, (and I’m no fireman)
Obviously not. >there may be building codes requiring a >space between apts to prevent fires from spreading even quicker.
A foot of empty space between the floor of one apartment and the ceiling of the one below it, as described by the original poster, will not slow down a fire, it’ll speed it up. A fire would race through that space. Fire-resistent insulation will slow down a fire. A firewall will slow down a fire. A foot of air between a floor and ceiling will not slow down a fire.
Response:
>> I lived in Wollaston (part of Quincy) in a multi-family house a couple of > years ago. Alot of those old houses are just horrible when it comes to > noise. I swear I could hear my upstairs neighbor brushing her teeth. <deletia) > The columnist >noted that although MA sanitary code says that the landlord must provide a >structure suitable for "quiet enjoyment" there is no specific code about the >noise levels that the structure must contain. I could test this law in the >courts, but I’m not sure if I have the energy for it.
Sorry John, but it sounds like you expect the landlord(s) to fill that space between apartments with something to kill the sound. That’s a bit outlandish. How can you expect landlords to do so and still keep their rents close to prsent? They’d have no choice but to increase your rent significantly. Also, (and I’m no fireman) there may be building codes requiring a space between apts to prevent fires from spreading even quicker. Good luck. 9-11-01 Never forget!! "Let’s Roll!"
Response:
a good thing in masachusetts re/ logan airport noise is that there is money available to make the primary room of the house soundproof , so if I measure my bathrom properly, lesee 6×5x8.errrrrr.never mind
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I lived in Wollaston (part of Quincy) in a multi-family house a couple of > years ago. Alot of those old houses are just horrible when it comes to > noise. I swear I could hear my upstairs neighbor brushing her teeth. > I can just about hear my neighbors brush their teeth. At one point the > landlord had to re-stucco my bathroom because water leakage had damaged the > ceiling. I saw then that there is about a foot of airspace between my > ceiling and their hardwood floor. I saw light coming through their hardwood > slats. It’s no wonder I can hear everything they do. Strangely and > fortunately, it was fine for two years but a few weeks ago new tenants moved > in and I can hear everything they do. I suppose the earlier tenants were > quiet and they had rugs. The new tenants are college students and > apparently do not have any rugs. > Through a searchable archive of noise-related news at www.nonoise.org I > found a Boston Globe article on this issue. Actually, it’s a Q&A column in > the real estate section. The columnist indicates that it’s unlikely for a > tenant to win in this situation, and recommending moving out. The columnist > noted that although MA sanitary code says that the landlord must provide a > structure suitable for "quiet enjoyment" there is no specific code about the > noise levels that the structure must contain. I could test this law in the > courts, but I’m not sure if I have the energy for it. > -John
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