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Question:

> "I’m not a koehler trainer,"

You’re not a dog trainer period, abuser YES, trainer NO. Before you buy.

Response:

> >Hello lyingdogDUMMY, >I don’t have the jam to go through this mess you’ve posted right now, >but you are INSANE. Jerry. > No Jer it’s got nothing to do with time, it’s a lack of brains

INDEED. And I didn’t have the jam to argue with a brainless dog abuser. Jerry. j;~}

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Joyce, we’ve had a couple of GSDs in rescue that sound very similar. >There are a few rare dogs that panic so much at crate confinement >that it becomes the central issue and gets in the way of making any >progress at all in other areas.  We’ve had to resort to other solutions, >like a movable chainlink run on a patio or in the garage, or simply >confinement to the garage, with access to the yard through a dog door. > (snipped for space) > Lynn, > Thanks, that’s encouraging.  I’ve been side-tracked with a couple of > sick cats ( I lost one of my old guys) and a puppy with a damaged > carpus. The puppy has to be tethered to me to get exercise so, haven’t > been able to devote 100% attention to my rescue girl, but she has > improved greatly.  I’m conditioning her to the Vari kennel, and as > soon as the puppy goes to a new home, I will not let her out of my > sight. > I don’t have a situation where I can keep her outside.  I’ve been > looking into a 12′ x12′ kennel, but I don’t know if that would be big > enough to confine the two bigger dogs who like to hang outside > sometimes. The back yard is fenced in, but this gal digs out in a > flash! > Joyce

"I’m not a koehler trainer," cindymoron, lyinglynn, lyingfrosty dahl. But they spout koehler’s methods. They don’t consider themselves koehler trainers because they shock, twist and pinch ears and toes, and BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS to MOTIVATE them. lyinglynn writes: > For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and > pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it. > When he barks, use the line for a correction.

A CORRECTION? You’re going to JERK and CHOKE this new foster dog out of being AFRAID… that’s CORRECTION? lyinlynn says: "I LOVE KOEHLER," and in the next breath denies being a ‘koehler trainer.’ Is that because she ALSO shocks dogs, and koehler never had a shock collar? Pity that he was born too late to benefit from such a wondrous teaching tool, ISN’T it??? And now for a little MOORE good koehler training: BARKING, WHINING, HOWLING, YODELING, SCREAMING, AND WAILING We’ll begin with the easiest kind of vocalist to correct: the one that charges gates, fences, doors, and windows, barking furiously at familiar or imaginary people and objects. A few clusters of BBs from a good slingshot, in conjunction with the light line and plenty of temptations, will cause such a dog to use his mind rather than his mouth. But you won’t make the permanent impression unless you supply dozens of opportunities for him to exercise the control he thus acquires. Make sure these opportunities don’t always come at the same time of the day, else he may learn to observe the "quiet hour" and pursue his old routines at other times. With the help of the light line, it will be easy to follow the BBs with a long down to make sure he gets the most from his lesson. As was mentioned before, eliminating the senseless barking will not lessen the dog’s value as a watchdog but rather, as he grows more discriminating, increase it. The dog who vocalizes in bratty protest or lonesomeness because you’re gone constitutes a different problem. If it is impractical for someone to stay with him constantly (there are owners who cater to neurosis by employing dog sitters), you’ll have to heed the neighbors and the law and quiet the dog. This calls for a little ingenuity as well as a heavy hand. Attach a line to your dog’s collar, so your corrective effort doesn’t turn into a footrace around the house until you reach a stalemate under the bed. This use of the line in the correction will also serve to establish it as a reminder to be quiet as the dog drags it around when you’re not present. Next, equip yourself with a man’s leather belt or a strap heavy enough to give your particular dog a good tanning. Yup-we’re going to strike him. Real hard. Remember, you’re dealing with a dog who knows he should be quiet and neighbors who have legal rights to see that he does. Now leave, and let your fading footsteps tell the dog of your going. When you’ve walked to a point where he’ll think you’re gone but where you could hear any noises he might make, stop and listen. If you find a comfortable waiting place on a nearby porch, be careful not to talk or laugh. Tests show a dog’s hearing to be many times as sharp as yours. When the noise comes, instead of trying to sneak up to the door so you can barge in while he’s still barking, which is generally impossible, respond to his first sound with an emphatic bellow of "out," and keep on bellowing as you charge back to his area. Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something. While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the area again. So that you won’t feel remorseful, reflect on the truth that a great percentage of the barkers who are given away to "good homes" end up in the kindly black box with the sweet smell. Personally, I’ve always felt that it’s even better to spank children, even if they "cry out," than to "put them to sleep." You might have a long wait on that comfortable porch before your dog starts broadcasting again. When he does, let your long range bellow tie the consequent correction to his first sound and repeat the spanking, if anything emphasizing it a bit more. It might be necessary to spend a Saturday or another day off so that you’ll have time to follow through sufficiently. When you have a full day, you will be able to convince him each yelp will have a bad consequence, and the consistency will make your job easier. If he gets away with his concert part of the time, he’ll be apt to gamble on your inconsistency. After a half dozen corrections, "the reason and the correction" will be tied in close enough association so that you can move in on him without the preliminary bellowing of "out." From then on, it’s just a case of laying for the dog and supplying enough bad consequences of his noise so he’ll no longer feel like gambling. Occasionally, there is a dog who seems to sense that you’re hiding nearby and will utter no sound. He also seems to sense when you have really gone away, at least according to the neighbors. Maybe his sensing actually amounts to close observation. He could be watching and listening for the signs of your actual going. Make a convincing operation of leaving, even if it requires changing clothes and being unusually noisy as you slam the doors on the family car and drive away. Arrange with a friend to trade cars a block or two from your house so you can come back and park within earshot without a single familiar sound to tell the dog you’ve returned. A few of these car changes are generally enough to fool the most alert dog. Whether your dog believes you are gone anytime you step out of the house or requires the production of changing clothes and driving off, keep working until even your neighbors admit the dog has reformed. If there has been a long history of barking and whining, it sometimes requires a lot of work to make a dog be quiet when you’re not around, so give the above method an honest try before you presume your dog requires a more severe correction.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I currently have a 4 year-old rescue who I cannot housebreak. She goes > bonkers in a crate, has destroyed several and bloodied her face, so > she can’t be crated. > Joyce, we’ve had a couple of GSDs in rescue that sound very similar. > There are a few rare dogs that panic so much at crate confinement > that it becomes the central issue and gets in the way of making any > progress at all in other areas.  We’ve had to resort to other solutions, > like a movable chainlink run on a patio or in the garage, or simply > confinement to the garage, with access to the yard through a dog door. > Once you find another way to safely manage the dog, they settle down > into the routine pretty quickly and you can start to work on the > housebreaking.  The dog gets brought into the house only when you can > do 100% supervision.  When the dog shows signs, they get rushed outside, > praised for potty, then brought immediately back into the house. It’s > important that supervision is so complete that there are no mistakes. > I’ve found that an adult dog learns almost immediately that return > access to the house is dependent on pottying outside and that they > become eager to get outside, get it over with, and get back inside > quickly.  Essentially, you’re making access to the house a privilege, > rather than the norm, and they quickly learn what they have to do to > gain that access. > Good luck, > Lynn K.

Hello lyinglynn, I don’t think you’re using all the TOOLS you have in your TOOLBOX, are you??? Why don’t you tell her to slap a shock collar on the dog to quiet him in the crate? It could be more effective than just leaving a leash on the crated dog to jerk and choke IT with. lyinglynn writes: > For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and > pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it. > When he barks, use the line for a correction.

A CORRECTION? You’re going to JERK and CHOKE the dog out of being AFRAID… that’s CORRECTION? lyinlynn says: "I LOVE KOEHLER," and in the next breath denies being a ‘koehler trainer.’ Is that because she ALSO shocks dogs, and koehler never had a shock collar? Pity that he was born too late to benefit from such a wondrous teaching tool, ISN’T it??? ron likes to use the heavy belt on his dogs "Read for content" Mark Shaw, Sadist, rpdb regular. "I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn. "There’s much wisdom in koehler," deana pace. "Read koehler," lyingdogdirty. "Read koehler," ludwig smith "I’m not a koehler trainer," cindymoron, lyinglynn. But they both spout koehler’s methods. They don’t consider themselves koehler trainers because they shock dogs, too… > Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is > something you twisted out of context, because you > are full of bizarro manure.

LIAR. I’ll just copy a direct quote or two or three or four or five or six… HOWE many direct quotes would you like??? Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears (INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES). I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM). I would never advise anyone to slap a dog (SHE’S A PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you expect her to ADMIT THE TRUTH???). I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists… and chin cuff doesn’t mean hit, according to lyinglynn and avrama…. amy lyingfrosty dahl continues: "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG. Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in" With your hand on the collar and ear, say, ‘fetch.’ Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch. You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb; even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching its ear. if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell. > They include: Amy Dahl,

Oh yes, we were just mentioning some of her methods, weren’t we… She likes to beat Retriever dogs with sticks to motivate dogs to WANT to retrieve. She pinches ears, not twists them. NO mention of twisting of toes or testicles, and she shocks and chin cuffs, NOT SLAPS, retriever dogs, to teach them to retrieve… NICE stuff, huh? > Diane Blackman,

Yes, diane… She’s as confused and deceitful as they come. She knits cover-ups for pronged choke collars so she can train dogs illegally on akc showgrounds, and so that people won’t SEE the prongs and think the less of her… She twists words better than you can, BECAUSE SHE HASN’T GOT BAGGED FOR LYING, LIKE YOU DID. She’s got a dog who’s been a chronic puller for five years, and she day boards her dogs because she can’t trust them at home alone. Her links page has lots of lousy advice, but diane won’t edit the lousy ones that teach HURTING dogs, because she says she doesn’t know enough about training to discern good from bad information… Whaddaya thaink of that? > Janet Boss,

Jerks dogs around on pronged collars to make them friendly. She’s as incompetent a creature as G-D could possibly create. I’ll be throwing THAT in HIS face when I get there… She has no business telling people to kill their dogs because their only option is to jerk the dog around and keep him confined for the rest of his life. See the thread ”interested in hearing” and you’ll see for yourself HOWE you bums mishandle and kill dogs because you don’t have any IDEAS and can’t outwit a puppydog… > Susan Fraser,

susan twists and pinches ears and toes and shocks and chokes dogs on pronged choke collars. But she doesn’t hurt them. > Avrama Gingold,

Our Professora… She got her damned teeth knocked down her throat when her dog finally figured out HOWE to hurt her back, and make it look like an accident. That’s called allelomimetic behavior. avrama had a habit of jerking him to make him heel or come, but always made it look like the dog did it to himself. Dogs are smart. Don’t take my word for it, that’s in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual. > Lynn Kosmakos,

Our pathological liar? She jerks and chokes and hangs dogs according to the koehler method. She justifies force because there are so many dogs to HELP and such little time to HELP them all, at the shelter she kills dogs at. > Bob Maida,

What advice? "Don’t let him do that?" Killfiles is all he writes about. He can’t talk dog training because he is a violent dog trainer. If he opens his yap, I shove his foot in it for him and hammer on top of his head till he’s craping toenails… He’s no dog trainer. He said he recommends cindymoron’s Website to his ‘’students” and they tell him HOWE much they’ve benefited from it… cindymron’s site has instructions for sticking your fingers down puppies throats to choke them out of mouthing, kneeing the dog in the chest, shocking, throwing the dog down by his ears and climbing on him like a wild animal, pinching and twisting ears, choking, jerking, and sticking dog’s heads under water you’ve filled into a hole he’s dug to break dogs of digging. I guess boob’s student’s only learned the jerking and choking from him… Your pal boob had been begging his ”teacher” cap’n faggotty to debate me here, and smarten me up. He sent his little girl to write me a threatening letter saying she’d sue me if I told the truth here… Then, your pal boob suggested there would be a motorcycle gang paying me a little visit… Do you ride, lyindoc? I may be able to get you a good deal on some dead bikers machines. > Cindy Tittle Moore,

A true sadist. She gets pleasure for dominating and hurting dogs. Read her forced fetch page, that will show you HOWE excited she gets just at the thought of hurting dogs. Did you see my STAY-OUT-OF-JAIL CHALLENGE to cindymoron? Here’s the deal… We get her to force fetch train three dogs in front of a childs playground, and I’ll train three protection dogs in the same site, and we’ll see who the children are disturbed by, and who the parents are going to call the cops on… And then I’ll show up as expert witness for the prosecution, and we’ll demonstrate her forced fetch in front of a criminal judge and jury… HOWE’S that for a FAIR TEST??? > Denna Pace,

Says she sees a lot of value in koehler… She’s got PLENTY of problems with her own dogs running away and being disobedient. > John Richardson,

He only hurts dogs to save them from the needle. He’s as abusive and immature as they come. He’s a clone of dogman. The dogs he can’t hurt into being friendly, he KILLS in the shelter he HELPS in. Unlike yourself, he’s too stupid to be evil. He’s just doing what koehler taught him. > Ludwig Smith,

Another koehler trainer. He’s too cowardly to come out and say what he believes. He throws around lots of non advice, and then tells us we can get more help in koehler’s books. He’s got a link to cindymoron’s page on his sig file… > and Terri Willis.

The psycho clown. She wants to hurt dogs because she is compensating for her … read more »

Response:

>Hello lyingdogDUMMY, >I don’t have the jam to go through this mess you’ve posted right now, >but you are INSANE. Jerry.

No Jer it’s got nothing to do with time, it’s a lack of brains

Response:

> I currently have a 4 year-old rescue who I cannot housebreak. She goes > bonkers in a crate, has destroyed several and bloodied her face, so > she can’t be crated.

Joyce, we’ve had a couple of GSDs in rescue that sound very similar. There are a few rare dogs that panic so much at crate confinement that it becomes the central issue and gets in the way of making any progress at all in other areas.  We’ve had to resort to other solutions, like a movable chainlink run on a patio or in the garage, or simply confinement to the garage, with access to the yard through a dog door. Once you find another way to safely manage the dog, they settle down into the routine pretty quickly and you can start to work on the housebreaking.  The dog gets brought into the house only when you can do 100% supervision.  When the dog shows signs, they get rushed outside, praised for potty, then brought immediately back into the house.  It’s important that supervision is so complete that there are no mistakes. I’ve found that an adult dog learns almost immediately that return access to the house is dependent on pottying outside and that they become eager to get outside, get it over with, and get back inside quickly.  Essentially, you’re making access to the house a privilege, rather than the norm, and they quickly learn what they have to do to gain that access. Good luck, Lynn K.

Response:

Hello lyingdogDUMMY, I don’t have the jam to go through this mess you’ve posted right now, but you are INSANE. Jerry.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [...] >Hi, Dogman.  She’s a mixed breed – Shepherd and something short- >haired. I’ve used a regular wire crate and a Kennel-Aire Professional >crate with the 1inch wire. In three days it looked as if she drove >down the street at 90 miles an hour and crashed.  She bent the tray >sideways like a tunnel, and knocked the front door off too. I just >ordered a deluxe vari kennel that should arrive tomorrow. What should >I be using? > Good, I was going to recommend the Vari Kennel. Use it without any pan > or pad on the bottom. > The size of the kennel can sometimes affect a dog’s ability to destroy > it…the smaller the better, until the dog starts to accept it.  Just > big enough for her to stand up and turn around, is about right. > [...] >>I can’t answer that, Joyce, because it depends on too many things. >>For example, the experience of the person trying to recondition this >>dog. >Well, Dogman, you know that I am not a trainer, but I have fostered >more than 30 dogs in the past two years and they have all been >housebroken and are in homes now.  The other one you helped me >extensively with is practically "Lassie" now. > You’re a trainer, Joyce, and a pretty good one to boot, I bet, but you > probably don’t have a lot of experience with this kind of > "reconditioning."  Not many trainers do. > They incorrectly assume that praise and reward will work here, when it > won’t. >>And his or her willingness to do "whatever it takes" to try to save >>this dog’s life. >Killing her is not an option for me. > That’s nice to hear. >She has a lot of good qualities >- she’s nice with the kitties and affectionate with people and other >dogs.  It isn’t her fault that she’s so messed up. > No, it definitely isn’t, that’s why it’s so damn hard sometimes to > give up on these dogs, even the truly human-agressive ones. >>In other words, punishment (P+) might be effective in breaking the >>dog’s conditioning to going inside. >>And then again, it might not. >I’d like to try other ways first, because it would upset me and the >other animals as well as this girl, but I will punish her to avoid the >ultimate punishment of having to take her life if I have to. > You should never attempt to do something that you’re uncomfortable > doing, because then you’ll almost always do it poorly. > And there’s really nothing worse for a dog than being punished poorly. > But punishment might be the only thing that can break the cycle of > this dog’s conditioning to going inside, coupled with the dog being > virtually *forced* to start going outside. >>>i made a committment to this dog >>>to help her and I don’t want to give up on her, but I just can’t watch >>>her 24/7. >>She needs to be with someone who can be with her 24/7, Joyce, because >>that’s the *only* way she’s ever going to be reconditioned to going >>outside. >Tell me how, please. I have an puppy with broken carpal bones >that will be well and leaving in about a week. Then I can devote much >more attention to her. > You just can’t allow this dog to keep going inside, Joyce.  That’s why > she must have arround-the-clock attention.  Even allowing the dog to > make one "mistake" can set you back to square one, especially if > you’re not going to use punishment when she does. >>I know you’re doing your best, Joyce, but you’re not really in a very >>good position to help this dog, in my opinion. >I know that, but I’m her only option.  She’s been returned by two >other foster homes. > Well, we’ll try to work with the options we have then. > :>) >>>I turn myself inside out praising her when she goes outside, but an hour >>>later, she pees on the floor. I feel that she could get a home quickly >>>if she were housebroken. >>Again, that’s why I regard praise and reward as essentially >>ineffective with regards to housetraining. >It hasn’t worked for me so far. > And it won’t work for you 6 months down the road either. > Again, this is an exercise in classical conditioning, not operant. >>A dog either gets conditioned to going outside, or it gets conditioned >>to going inside. >>Period. >>Reconditioning a dog can be very hard work. >>Just imagine how hard it would be to get a dog (e.g., Pavlov’s dog), >>one that had been previously "conditioned" to salivate at the sound of >>a bell, to a point where it no longer salivated at the sound of a >>bell? >>See what I mean? >That seems impossible. > It’s not impossible…I do it all the time…but it takes a lot of > time, and a lot of hard work. > The counter-conditioning needs to become even stronger to the dog than > the dog’s previous conditioning — and that takes *time.* >>An alternative solution for this particular dog (one that wouldn’t >>require punishment, etc), and maybe even a possible cure at the same >>time, would be to place the dog with a farmer or rancher. >>Or anyplace where the dog could actually *live* "outside," so it won’t >>even have a chance to go "inside." >Ah – the farm – the dream of every rescuer of bad dogs and feral cats! >Here in NJ, that is not easily found.  A woman at the horse training >farm where I take two of the dogs for swim therapy liked her, but she >was to spooky around the horses. > How ’bout in your backyard?  Got one of them? >>By default, the dog will eventually become reconditioned to going >>"outside." >>That’s why I asked you what kind of dog this is, hoping that it might >>be a breed that can adapt to an outside lifestyle. >>If none of the above is possible, you might want to try gradually >>desensitizing her to the crate, but that, too, would require virtually >>24/7 attention. >I’ve been feeding her in the broken crate, and she goes in willingly >to wait for her food now.  I haven’t closed the door of course, >because it doesn’t have one now!!! > Good!  You’re on your way already.  Again, this takes T-I-M-E, too. >>It would, however, dramatically increase her chances of finding a home >>someday. >Is it possible? > You bet!  It only depends on how much time you’re prepared to give > this dog, and how hard you’re willing to work. >>I don’t envy you your decision, Joyce, that’s why rescue work is so >>damn hard, eh? >I know it is.  I keep promising myself that I’m going to quit! >>Good luck. >Thanks, Dogman.  Any magic bullets you can send us? > I wish. > As you know, kiddo, there are no "magic bullets" when it comes to dog > training (unless you’re stupid enough to listen to Jerry "The Shyster" > Howe, which I know you’re not). > Dog training takes hard work, patience, and a lot of time, if you want > to do it right, which happens to be the only way to do it, in my book. > — > Dogman > http://www.i1.net/~dogman

Response:

[...] >Hi, Dogman.  She’s a mixed breed – Shepherd and something short- >haired. I’ve used a regular wire crate and a Kennel-Aire Professional >crate with the 1inch wire. In three days it looked as if she drove >down the street at 90 miles an hour and crashed.  She bent the tray >sideways like a tunnel, and knocked the front door off too. I just >ordered a deluxe vari kennel that should arrive tomorrow. What should >I be using?

Good, I was going to recommend the Vari Kennel. Use it without any pan or pad on the bottom. The size of the kennel can sometimes affect a dog’s ability to destroy it…the smaller the better, until the dog starts to accept it.  Just big enough for her to stand up and turn around, is about right. [...] >I can’t answer that, Joyce, because it depends on too many things. >For example, the experience of the person trying to recondition this >dog. >Well, Dogman, you know that I am not a trainer, but I have fostered >more than 30 dogs in the past two years and they have all been >housebroken and are in homes now.  The other one you helped me >extensively with is practically "Lassie" now.

You’re a trainer, Joyce, and a pretty good one to boot, I bet, but you probably don’t have a lot of experience with this kind of "reconditioning."  Not many trainers do. They incorrectly assume that praise and reward will work here, when it won’t. >And his or her willingness to do "whatever it takes" to try to save >this dog’s life. >Killing her is not an option for me.  

That’s nice to hear. >She has a lot of good qualities >- she’s nice with the kitties and affectionate with people and other >dogs.  It isn’t her fault that she’s so messed up.

No, it definitely isn’t, that’s why it’s so damn hard sometimes to give up on these dogs, even the truly human-agressive ones. >In other words, punishment (P+) might be effective in breaking the >dog’s conditioning to going inside. >And then again, it might not. >I’d like to try other ways first, because it would upset me and the >other animals as well as this girl, but I will punish her to avoid the >ultimate punishment of having to take her life if I have to.

You should never attempt to do something that you’re uncomfortable doing, because then you’ll almost always do it poorly. And there’s really nothing worse for a dog than being punished poorly. But punishment might be the only thing that can break the cycle of this dog’s conditioning to going inside, coupled with the dog being virtually *forced* to start going outside. >>i made a committment to this dog >>to help her and I don’t want to give up on her, but I just can’t watch >>her 24/7. >She needs to be with someone who can be with her 24/7, Joyce, because >that’s the *only* way she’s ever going to be reconditioned to going >outside. >Tell me how, please. I have an puppy with broken carpal bones >that will be well and leaving in about a week. Then I can devote much >more attention to her.

You just can’t allow this dog to keep going inside, Joyce.  That’s why she must have arround-the-clock attention.  Even allowing the dog to make one "mistake" can set you back to square one, especially if you’re not going to use punishment when she does. >I know you’re doing your best, Joyce, but you’re not really in a very >good position to help this dog, in my opinion. >I know that, but I’m her only option.  She’s been returned by two >other foster homes.

Well, we’ll try to work with the options we have then. :>) >>I turn myself inside out praising her when she goes outside, but an hour >>later, she pees on the floor. I feel that she could get a home quickly >>if she were housebroken. >Again, that’s why I regard praise and reward as essentially >ineffective with regards to housetraining. >It hasn’t worked for me so far.

And it won’t work for you 6 months down the road either. Again, this is an exercise in classical conditioning, not operant. >A dog either gets conditioned to going outside, or it gets conditioned >to going inside.   >Period. >Reconditioning a dog can be very hard work. >Just imagine how hard it would be to get a dog (e.g., Pavlov’s dog), >one that had been previously "conditioned" to salivate at the sound of >a bell, to a point where it no longer salivated at the sound of a >bell?   >See what I mean? >That seems impossible.

It’s not impossible…I do it all the time…but it takes a lot of time, and a lot of hard work. The counter-conditioning needs to become even stronger to the dog than the dog’s previous conditioning — and that takes *time.* >An alternative solution for this particular dog (one that wouldn’t >require punishment, etc), and maybe even a possible cure at the same >time, would be to place the dog with a farmer or rancher. >Or anyplace where the dog could actually *live* "outside," so it won’t >even have a chance to go "inside."   >Ah – the farm – the dream of every rescuer of bad dogs and feral cats! >Here in NJ, that is not easily found.  A woman at the horse training >farm where I take two of the dogs for swim therapy liked her, but she >was to spooky around the horses.

How ’bout in your backyard?  Got one of them? >By default, the dog will eventually become reconditioned to going >"outside." >That’s why I asked you what kind of dog this is, hoping that it might >be a breed that can adapt to an outside lifestyle. >If none of the above is possible, you might want to try gradually >desensitizing her to the crate, but that, too, would require virtually >24/7 attention.   >I’ve been feeding her in the broken crate, and she goes in willingly >to wait for her food now.  I haven’t closed the door of course, >because it doesn’t have one now!!!

Good!  You’re on your way already.  Again, this takes T-I-M-E, too. >It would, however, dramatically increase her chances of finding a home >someday. >Is it possible?

You bet!  It only depends on how much time you’re prepared to give this dog, and how hard you’re willing to work. >I don’t envy you your decision, Joyce, that’s why rescue work is so >damn hard, eh? >I know it is.  I keep promising myself that I’m going to quit! >Good luck. >Thanks, Dogman.  Any magic bullets you can send us?

I wish.   As you know, kiddo, there are no "magic bullets" when it comes to dog training (unless you’re stupid enough to listen to Jerry "The Shyster" Howe, which I know you’re not). Dog training takes hard work, patience, and a lot of time, if you want to do it right, which happens to be the only way to do it, in my book. — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman

Response:

Hello joyce,

> Hi, Dogman.  She’s a mixed breed – Shepherd and something short- > haired. I’ve used a regular wire crate and a Kennel-Aire Professional > crate with the 1inch wire. In three days it looked as if she drove > down the street at 90 miles an hour and crashed.  She bent the tray > sideways like a tunnel, and knocked the front door off too.

Maybe that’s why she’s having a housebreaking problem. She’s so wound up from that stupid crate, when you let her out she’s out of control, because the crate makes her more anxious than anything else in the world… > I just ordered a deluxe vari kennel that should arrive tomorrow. What > should I be using?

Try using your BRAINS for once. Get rid of the crate, or teach her to realx in there. It’s usually pretty easy to do, if ya KNOW HOWE. >>Her previous owner was a substance abuser who didn’t want to get out >>of bed to take the dog out.  I’ve had her for several months, and no >>matter what I do, she poops and pees all over.  I’m afraid she will >>encourage the others to think the house is a toilet. >>Is there any hope for her – for us?

Probably not, if you’re going to continue to listen to lyingdogDUMMY. >I can’t answer that, Joyce, because it depends on too many things.

Yeah, like if you’ll be contradicting yourself. >For example, the experience of the person trying to recondition this >dog. > Well, Dogman, you know that I am not a trainer,

That’s OBVIOUS, or you wouldn’t give this moron the right time. He’s not a dog trainer either, he’s a dog abuser and a liar. >In other words, punishment (P+) might be effective in breaking the >dog’s conditioning to going inside. >And then again, it might not.

But it’s always FUN, and good exercise. > I’d like to try other ways first, because it would upset me and the > other animals as well as this girl, but I will punish her to avoid the > ultimate punishment of having to take her life if I have to.

Good for you. That’s really using your brains. I wish all the rescue folks could see this post. You’ll do ANYTHING to HELP this poor dog, except LEARN. >>i made a committment to this dog

Well then, get out the belt, leash up your dog, and REALLY LAY IT ON HER. > Tell me how, please.

Your pal lyingdogDUMMY doesn’t have any ideas EXCEPT HURT THE DOG. >Again, that’s why I regard praise and reward as essentially >ineffective with regards to housetraining.

Of course. Get out the strap, and LAY IT ON HER. >I don’t envy you your decision, Joyce, that’s why rescue work is so >damn hard, eh?

Psst! joycy, the moron is LAUGHING at you. > I know it is.  I keep promising myself that I’m going to quit!

I think that’s an excellent idea. WE don’t need or want people who are so dedicated they’ll HURT dogs instead of LEARNING to train them properly. Maybe if YOU get out of this racket, other like minded fools will follow you, and we can recruit some DECENT, KNOWLEDGABLE, dog people who WON’T DO ANYTHING that shouldn’t be done to a dog or any living being… >Good luck.

LUCK? You’re gonna need a miracle. Anyone who has to beat a dog to train IT doesn’t have the intellect to outwit a puppy dog, and should get the hell out of this busines… > Thanks, Dogman.

Yeah, you deserve each other… Are you sure you’re not paulette? There’s a pip for ya. > Any magic bullets you can send us?

Don’t tempt me. > Joyce

You deserve each other… Jerry. j;~}

Response:

Hello lyingdogDUMMY,

> Hi, Joyce.

I can answer a few questions for Joyce… > What kind of dog is this?

The four footed, wet nosed, with a tail and them give away ears. A dog is a dog. > What kind of crate are you using?

The kind that makes dogs nervous and hyper.  > > I’m afraid she will encourage the others to think the house is a > toilet. Is there any hope for her – for us? > I can’t answer that, Joyce, because it depends on too many > things.

That’s because lyingdogDUMMY lives in an outhouse. He’s got the downstairs studio. > For example, the experience of the person trying to recondition > this dog.

Around here, that pretty much limits the liklihood of any help. > And his or her willingness to do "whatever it takes" to try to save > this dog’s life.

Ah yes. We’re getting to the point now… > In other words, punishment (P+) might be effective in breaking > the dog’s conditioning to going inside.

Good for you lyingdogDUMMY. I’ll copy the instructions below. > And then again, it might not.

It WILL if she’s willing to do ANYTHING to save IT’S life.. if ya know what I mean.  > She needs to be with someone who can be with her 24/7, Joyce, > because that’s the *only* way she’s ever going to be > reconditioned to going outside.

She should get married to someone who’ll support her and let her do nothing but babysit her puppy all day… You’d never guess that dogs NATURALLY housebreak themselves, if you handle them with a little RESPECT. > I know you’re doing your best, Joyce, but you’re not really in a > very good position to help this dog, in my opinion.

She should probably bring IT back to the pound so they can dispose of IT for her. >She weighs about 75 pounds and is very handsome. > Lots of handsome, 75 pound dogs have been killed for a lot less, > eh?

Yeah. That’s a convienient size to hang…  > Again, that’s why I regard praise and reward as essentially > ineffective with regards to housetraining.

INDEED. And likewise for anything else. > A dog either gets conditioned to going outside, or it gets > conditioned to going inside.

Right. Training has no bearing on it. It’s pretty much the luck of the draw, unless we take proactive measures… I’ll copy the instructions below. > Period.

Point blank… > Reconditioning a dog can be very hard work.

Right. They won’t stand still up on the lift for the mechanic to service them. > Just imagine how hard it would be to get a dog (e.g., Pavlov’s > dog), one that had been previously "conditioned" to salivate at > the sound of a bell, to a point where it no longer salivated at the > sound of a bell?

It would take only a few minutes. BUT, YA GOTTA KNOW HOWE. > See what I mean?

INDEED. You’ve gone off you medication, and run out of rot gut whisky at the same time, and you’re going through your D.T.’S halucinating that you’re a dog trainer… > An alternative solution for this particular dog (one that wouldn’t > require punishment, etc), and maybe even a possible cure at the > same time, would be to place the dog with a farmer or

rancher. Yeah. He’ll get a chance to get shot for chasing livestock. You should proably tell her HOWE to HANG this dog, to SAVE IT FROM THE NEEDLE. Yup. That’s what I’d do. > Or anyplace where the dog could actually *live* "outside," so it > won’t even have a chance to go "inside."

WHOA! Everybody here is dead set AGAINST having outside dogs… and for very good reason I might add. THEY’RE AFRAID, because their dogs are going to try to make it out on their own as soon as they get a chance at a clean get away… Wouldn’t you, if you were going to be jerked, choked, shocked, and get your ears, toes, and testicles pinched and twisted, and be beaten with sticks for MOTIVATION??? Yup. You remember HOWE life was when your pa was still alive, and before he’d pass out, you’d get yours, REMEMBER? Remember HOWE your brothers used to drag you kicking and screaming to your drunken pa, who’d wail the bejesus out of you for being a sneak and a liar?  Brings back fond memories, I’ll betcha… > By default, the dog will eventually become reconditioned to going > "outside."

Right. UNTIL she brings him back inside again. ONE THING HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OTHER…, lyingdogDUMMY. What’s the matter with you, your pa whack ya too many times upside the skull??? > That’s why I asked you what kind of dog this is, hoping that it > might be a breed that can adapt to an outside lifestyle.

ANY dog can acclimate ITself to living outside, given adequate shelter. > If none of the above is possible, you might want to try gradually > desensitizing her to the crate, but that, too, would require > virtually 24/7 attention.

Crating makes dogs HYPERACTIVE. > It would, however, dramatically increase her chances of finding a > home someday.

Right. I’d ignore proper handling and training techniques, and opt for locking the dog up in the crate. > I don’t envy you your decision, Joyce, that’s why rescue work is > so damn hard, eh?

No, lyingdogDUMMY. Being a MORON is what makes life hard. > Good luck.

She don’t need LUCK. I’ll just repost a bit from koehler: This is where Koehler really pays off: Housebreaking problems: "Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is quipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing  an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him. "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" Howell Book House, 1996 ron likes to use the heavy belt on his dogs "Read for content" Mark Shaw, Sadist, rpdb regular. "I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn. "There’s much wisdom in koehler," deana pace. "Read koehler," lyingdogdirty. "Read koehler," ludwig smith "I’m not a koehler trainer," cindymoron, lyinglynn. But they both spout koehler’s methods. They don’t consider themselves koehler trainers because they shock dogs, too… lyinglynn writes: > For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and > pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it. > When he barks, use the line for a correction.

A CORRECTION? You’re going to JERK and CHOKE the dog out of being AFRAID… that’s CORRECTION? lyinlynn says: "I LOVE KOEHLER," and in the next breath denies being a ‘koehler trainer.’ Is that because she ALSO shocks dogs, and koehler never had a shock collar? Pity that he was born too late to benefit from such a wondrous teaching tool, ISN’T it??? > Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is > something you twisted out of context, because you > are full of bizarro manure.

LIAR. I’ll just copy a direct quote or two or three or four or five or six… HOWE many direct quotes would you like??? Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears (INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES). I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM). I would never advise anyone to slap a dog (SHE’S A PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you expect her to ADMIT THE TRUTH???). I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists… and chin cuff doesn’t mean hit, according to lyinglynn and avrama…. amy lyingfrosty dahl continues: "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG. Make … read more »

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >(snip) >No "reward" (in the operant sense) is necessary here.  That’s why >people who allow a dog to inadvertently become "conditioned" to going >inside (because they somehow allowed the dog to go "inside") are >amazed when praise and rewards (when the puppy is eventually taken >outside in time) have little effect on the puppy’s future behavior. >It does no harm, of course, to praise a puppy when it goes outside, >and it may offer some help, but the reality of the situation is this, >it probably does very little, if anything, to affect the puppy’s >future behavior. >Dogman, >I currently have a 4 year-old rescue who I cannot housebreak. She goes >bonkers in a crate, has destroyed several and bloodied her face, so >she can’t be crated.

Hi, Joyce.  What kind of dog is this?  What kind of crate are you using? >Her previous owner was a substance abuser who didn’t want to get out >of bed to take the dog out.  I’ve had her for several months, and no >matter what I do, she poops and pees all over.  I’m afraid she will >encourage the others to think the house is a toilet. >Is there any hope for her – for us?  

I can’t answer that, Joyce, because it depends on too many things. For example, the experience of the person trying to recondition this dog. And his or her willingness to do "whatever it takes" to try to save this dog’s life. In other words, punishment (P+) might be effective in breaking the dog’s conditioning to going inside. And then again, it might not. >i made a committment to this dog >to help her and I don’t want to give up on her, but I just can’t watch >her 24/7.

She needs to be with someone who can be with her 24/7, Joyce, because that’s the *only* way she’s ever going to be reconditioned to going outside. I know you’re doing your best, Joyce, but you’re not really in a very good position to help this dog, in my opinion. >She weighs about 75 pounds and is very handsome.

Lots of handsome, 75 pound dogs have been killed for a lot less, eh? >I turn myself inside out praising her when she goes outside, but an hour >later, she pees on the floor. I feel that she could get a home quickly >if she were housebroken.

Again, that’s why I regard praise and reward as essentially ineffective with regards to housetraining. A dog either gets conditioned to going outside, or it gets conditioned to going inside.   Period. Reconditioning a dog can be very hard work. Just imagine how hard it would be to get a dog (e.g., Pavlov’s dog), one that had been previously "conditioned" to salivate at the sound of a bell, to a point where it no longer salivated at the sound of a bell?   See what I mean? An alternative solution for this particular dog (one that wouldn’t require punishment, etc), and maybe even a possible cure at the same time, would be to place the dog with a farmer or rancher. Or anyplace where the dog could actually *live* "outside," so it won’t even have a chance to go "inside."   By default, the dog will eventually become reconditioned to going "outside." That’s why I asked you what kind of dog this is, hoping that it might be a breed that can adapt to an outside lifestyle. If none of the above is possible, you might want to try gradually desensitizing her to the crate, but that, too, would require virtually 24/7 attention.   It would, however, dramatically increase her chances of finding a home someday. I don’t envy you your decision, Joyce, that’s why rescue work is so damn hard, eh? Good luck. — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman

Response:

> I currently have a 4 year-old rescue who I cannot housebreak. She goes > bonkers in a crate, has destroyed several and bloodied her face, so > she can’t be crated. > Her previous owner was a substance abuser who didn’t want to get out > of bed to take the dog out.  I’ve had her for several months, and no > matter what I do, she poops and pees all over.  I’m afraid she will > encourage the others to think the house is a toilet. > Is there any hope for her – for us?  i made a committment to this dog > to help her and I don’t want to give up on her, but I just can’t watch > her 24/7. She weighs about 75 pounds and is very handsome. I turn > myself inside out praising her when she goes outside, but an hour > later, she pees on the floor. I feel that she could get a home quickly > if she were housebroken. > Joyce

If you can give up two weeks of your life, you might be able to get this dog turned around. >but I just can’t watch her 24/7.<<  This is the part that’s going to be the problem.

The thing is that you HAVE to set up her life so she has NO opportunity to pee in the house. You’ll have to use the umbilical technique when you’re home (she’s tied to you — goes where you go) and she has to be confined somehow when you’re at work. Since crating isn’t an option you’ll have to find a doggie day care center, take her to your vet for day boarding, take her to a friend’s home — something. Can she stay in your bathroom or utility room or some other small place without peeing there? If you can get two weeks straight where she doesn’t pee in the house (she can’t — no opportunity) she may have the habit of going outside set. This is not going to be easy and will take a great deal of motivation on your part. It will seem like your entire life revolves around the dog and her bladder (which is true <g>). You’ll also have to have the carpets/floor cleaned so that there is no trace of her scent left. Good luck!! Deb*

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > (snip) >No "reward" (in the operant sense) is necessary here. That’s why >people who allow a dog to inadvertently become "conditioned" to going >inside (because they somehow allowed the dog to go "inside") are >amazed when praise and rewards (when the puppy is eventually taken >outside in time) have little effect on the puppy’s future behavior. >It does no harm, of course, to praise a puppy when it goes outside, >and it may offer some help, but the reality of the situation is this, >it probably does very little, if anything, to affect the puppy’s >future behavior. > Dogman, > I currently have a 4 year-old rescue who I cannot housebreak. She goes > bonkers in a crate, has destroyed several and bloodied her face, so > she can’t be crated. > Her previous owner was a substance abuser who didn’t want to get out > of bed to take the dog out.  I’ve had her for several months, and no > matter what I do, she poops and pees all over.  I’m afraid she will > encourage the others to think the house is a toilet. > Is there any hope for her – for us?  i made a committment to this dog > to help her and I don’t want to give up on her, but I just can’t watch > her 24/7. She weighs about 75 pounds and is very handsome. I turn > myself inside out praising her when she goes outside, but an hour > later, she pees on the floor. I feel that she could get a home quickly > if she were housebroken. > Joyce

This is where Koehler really pays off: Housebreaking problems: "Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is quipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing  an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him. "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" Howell Book House, 1996 ron likes to use the heavy belt on his dogs "Read for content" Mark Shaw, Sadist, rpdb regular. "I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn. "There’s much wisdom in koehler," deana pace. "Read koehler," "millions and millions can’t be wrong," lyingdogDUMMY. "Read koehler," ludwig smith "I admire koheler," amy lyingfrosty dahl. "I’m not a koehler trainer," cindymoron, lyinglynn. But they both spout koehler’s methods. They don’t consider themselves koehler trainers because they shock dogs, too… lyinglynn writes: > For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and > pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it. > When he barks, use the line for a correction.

lyinlynn says: "I LOVE KOEHLER," and in the next breath denies being a ‘koehler trainer.’ Is that because she ALSO shocks dogs, and koehler never had a shock collar?

Response:

Talk dog training, not spellin. Jerry.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Why is your company name spelled incorrectly? > "Biosound > Sceintific" > Are you that much of a fool? I mean, come on! If I had my own company do you > think I’d not spell the company name correctly? > God, you look like a total fool you ass. > molly > Hello steve, > Is this the post you liked? > Hello lyingdogdirty, > > You’re not only a LIAR, Jerry, you’re a *pathological* liar, > the > > very worst kind. > Sorry lyingdogdirty, but you are wrong again. There is only one > pathological liar on rpdb, so far as I’m certain… That’d be > lyinglynn. She doesn’t even recognize that she’s doing it. It’s > sort of an inferiority complex relief mechanism, much like > Howe YOU react to dogs and HANG them when YOU feel > threatened. It boosts your fragile ego, and overcompensates for > your insecurity complex, misogyny, and homophobia. > Those issues throw you off balance, makes you psychotic, and > the rush > you get from ABUSING DOGS as a RELIEF MECHANISM, is ADDICTIVE. > The > adrenaline and neuro chemicals overdoses you to a high. > Consequently, > you need > more stimulation the next time, JUST LIKE ANY JUNKIE, but ONLY > when > your fragile ego feels threatened. So, YOU HURT DOGS MORE, to > get > your FIX. > The long and short of it is lyingdogdirty, that it goes back to > your > vicious drunken Pa whipping your dirty, rotten, filthy, lying, > cheating, sneaky, stinking butt every time he got bazo, from > just > looking at the sorry disgusting spawn that he (or some other > G.I. > fresh out of the trenches) created because he was using an old > G. I. prophylactic circa ‘42, that leaked, and triggers in HIM, > the > same response as you experience, when a dog "threatens" you. > Do you see Howe that works? Here’s more… > So, as you can only have so many triggers for such behavior…, > at some point, you run out of triggers. When you were small, > your dad was dependable as a trigger to deliver your "fix" and > your brothers would help him if he was too plastered to stagger > up off his drunken butt, and snatch your lying, filthy, butt on > his > own, so he’d set one of  your brothers on you to drag your > cowardly butt over to him.  Consequently, you’d both get > another > "fix." > You don’t have that stimulus any more, so now you > subconsciously have to go out and "score," i.e., re-up your > chemical > high balance. Lacking an aggressive dog to > "rehabilitate," you must find a suitable trigger like a dog or > a > homosexual or even a dominant woman or any live being that > will provoke that insecurity and trigger your response to > release > that chemical high. I’m a perfect trigger, because I KNOW YOU. > Lacking an "appropriate" victim, you might challenge a "normal" > dog, and set it up so he gets jerked around for "justifiable" > reasons like not sitting fast enough or looking at you cross- > eyed.  When you easily stimulate an aggressive notion in the > dog by giving a few "effective corrections," your > parasympathetic  nervous system kicks in with the rush of your > life… > NOW, that  behavior becomes paired with your trigger, the dog. > So, > the dog IS your best friend, but to be that, the DOG MUST > SUFFER your > abuse. Kind of like your pig wife who also hangs > dogs, according to your own words… > You see Howe this is a neuro chemical thing, and it isn’t even > YOU or even YOUR NATURAL VICIOUSNESS that is doing it? > It’s simply your biological conditioning to an addiction to > rejection and fear. You are unconsciously striking back at your > drunken, abusive, Pa. But that’s not intentional, you don’t > hate > him, you need that anger to give you that high. You are > GRATEFUL you > had your filthy butt whipped all your young life. You do the > same > favor for your own kids. > And as time goes on, you need more chemical from within. That > means you need more psychological confrontation to provoke a > physical assault, in order to trip the parasympathetic nervous > system > triggers. >  > Dogman > You are one SICK S.O.B. J>>> > "Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and > judge things by reason’s way, not by popular say." Montaigne > "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin > "If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman. > ;~) DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> > "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. > "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems > of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the > simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to > admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in > explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which > they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their > lives." >                                              Leo Tolstoy > Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more > complaints to my personal email than any other controversial > post I have made to date, bar none?: >                                             caveat > If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you > would > rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you > have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, > choke > him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, > scold, > hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are > appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, > or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train > your > dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. > Sincerely, > Jerry Howe, > Wits’ End Dog Training > http://www.doggydoright.com > Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed. >                       -Francis Bacon- > There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, > bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. > Who > ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at > all. >                      -Nietzsche- > The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are > learned > qualities. > The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning > centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, > develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him > smarter. > The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split > seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless > hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding. >                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

Why is your company name spelled incorrectly? "Biosound Sceintific" Are you that much of a fool? I mean, come on! If I had my own company do you think I’d not spell the company name correctly? God, you look like a total fool you ass. molly

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello steve, > Is this the post you liked? > Hello lyingdogdirty, > You’re not only a LIAR, Jerry, you’re a *pathological* liar, > the > > very worst kind. > Sorry lyingdogdirty, but you are wrong again. There is only one > pathological liar on rpdb, so far as I’m certain… That’d be > lyinglynn. She doesn’t even recognize that she’s doing it. It’s > sort of an inferiority complex relief mechanism, much like > Howe YOU react to dogs and HANG them when YOU feel > threatened. It boosts your fragile ego, and overcompensates for > your insecurity complex, misogyny, and homophobia. > Those issues throw you off balance, makes you psychotic, and > the rush > you get from ABUSING DOGS as a RELIEF MECHANISM, is ADDICTIVE. > The > adrenaline and neuro chemicals overdoses you to a high. > Consequently, > you need > more stimulation the next time, JUST LIKE ANY JUNKIE, but ONLY > when > your fragile ego feels threatened. So, YOU HURT DOGS MORE, to > get > your FIX. > The long and short of it is lyingdogdirty, that it goes back to > your > vicious drunken Pa whipping your dirty, rotten, filthy, lying, > cheating, sneaky, stinking butt every time he got bazo, from > just > looking at the sorry disgusting spawn that he (or some other > G.I. > fresh out of the trenches) created because he was using an old > G. I. prophylactic circa ‘42, that leaked, and triggers in HIM, > the > same response as you experience, when a dog "threatens" you. > Do you see Howe that works? Here’s more… > So, as you can only have so many triggers for such behavior…, > at some point, you run out of triggers. When you were small, > your dad was dependable as a trigger to deliver your "fix" and > your brothers would help him if he was too plastered to stagger > up off his drunken butt, and snatch your lying, filthy, butt on > his > own, so he’d set one of  your brothers on you to drag your > cowardly butt over to him.  Consequently, you’d both get > another > "fix." > You don’t have that stimulus any more, so now you > subconsciously have to go out and "score," i.e., re-up your > chemical > high balance. Lacking an aggressive dog to > "rehabilitate," you must find a suitable trigger like a dog or > a > homosexual or even a dominant woman or any live being that > will provoke that insecurity and trigger your response to > release > that chemical high. I’m a perfect trigger, because I KNOW YOU. > Lacking an "appropriate" victim, you might challenge a "normal" > dog, and set it up so he gets jerked around for "justifiable" > reasons like not sitting fast enough or looking at you cross- > eyed.  When you easily stimulate an aggressive notion in the > dog by giving a few "effective corrections," your > parasympathetic  nervous system kicks in with the rush of your > life… > NOW, that  behavior becomes paired with your trigger, the dog. > So, > the dog IS your best friend, but to be that, the DOG MUST > SUFFER your > abuse. Kind of like your pig wife who also hangs > dogs, according to your own words… > You see Howe this is a neuro chemical thing, and it isn’t even > YOU or even YOUR NATURAL VICIOUSNESS that is doing it? > It’s simply your biological conditioning to an addiction to > rejection and fear. You are unconsciously striking back at your > drunken, abusive, Pa. But that’s not intentional, you don’t > hate > him, you need that anger to give you that high. You are > GRATEFUL you > had your filthy butt whipped all your young life. You do the > same > favor for your own kids. > And as time goes on, you need more chemical from within. That > means you need more psychological confrontation to provoke a > physical assault, in order to trip the parasympathetic nervous > system > triggers. >  > Dogman > You are one SICK S.O.B. J>>> > "Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and > judge things by reason’s way, not by popular say." Montaigne > "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin > "If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman. > ;~) DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> > "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. > "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems > of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the > simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to > admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in > explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which > they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their > lives." >                                              Leo Tolstoy > Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more > complaints to my personal email than any other controversial > post I have made to date, bar none?: >                                             caveat > If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you > would > rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you > have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, > choke > him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, > scold, > hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are > appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, > or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train > your > dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. > Sincerely, > Jerry Howe, > Wits’ End Dog Training > http://www.doggydoright.com > Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed. >                       -Francis Bacon- > There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, > bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. > Who > ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at > all. >                      -Nietzsche- > The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are > learned > qualities. > The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning > centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, > develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him > smarter. > The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split > seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless > hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding. >                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

Hello steve, Is this the post you liked? Hello lyingdogdirty,

> You’re not only a LIAR, Jerry, you’re a *pathological* liar,

the > very worst kind. Sorry lyingdogdirty, but you are wrong again. There is only one pathological liar on rpdb, so far as I’m certain… That’d be lyinglynn. She doesn’t even recognize that she’s doing it. It’s sort of an inferiority complex relief mechanism, much like Howe YOU react to dogs and HANG them when YOU feel threatened. It boosts your fragile ego, and overcompensates for your insecurity complex, misogyny, and homophobia. Those issues throw you off balance, makes you psychotic, and the rush you get from ABUSING DOGS as a RELIEF MECHANISM, is ADDICTIVE. The adrenaline and neuro chemicals overdoses you to a high. Consequently, you need more stimulation the next time, JUST LIKE ANY JUNKIE, but ONLY when your fragile ego feels threatened. So, YOU HURT DOGS MORE, to get your FIX. The long and short of it is lyingdogdirty, that it goes back to your vicious drunken Pa whipping your dirty, rotten, filthy, lying, cheating, sneaky, stinking butt every time he got bazo, from just looking at the sorry disgusting spawn that he (or some other G.I. fresh out of the trenches) created because he was using an old G. I. prophylactic circa ‘42, that leaked, and triggers in HIM, the same response as you experience, when a dog "threatens" you. Do you see Howe that works? Here’s more… So, as you can only have so many triggers for such behavior…, at some point, you run out of triggers. When you were small, your dad was dependable as a trigger to deliver your "fix" and your brothers would help him if he was too plastered to stagger up off his drunken butt, and snatch your lying, filthy, butt on his own, so he’d set one of  your brothers on you to drag your cowardly butt over to him.  Consequently, you’d both get another "fix." You don’t have that stimulus any more, so now you subconsciously have to go out and "score," i.e., re-up your chemical high balance. Lacking an aggressive dog to "rehabilitate," you must find a suitable trigger like a dog or a homosexual or even a dominant woman or any live being that will provoke that insecurity and trigger your response to release that chemical high. I’m a perfect trigger, because I KNOW YOU. Lacking an "appropriate" victim, you might challenge a "normal" dog, and set it up so he gets jerked around for "justifiable" reasons like not sitting fast enough or looking at you cross- eyed.  When you easily stimulate an aggressive notion in the dog by giving a few "effective corrections," your parasympathetic  nervous system kicks in with the rush of your life… NOW, that  behavior becomes paired with your trigger, the dog. So, the dog IS your best friend, but to be that, the DOG MUST SUFFER your abuse. Kind of like your pig wife who also hangs dogs, according to your own words… You see Howe this is a neuro chemical thing, and it isn’t even YOU or even YOUR NATURAL VICIOUSNESS that is doing it? It’s simply your biological conditioning to an addiction to rejection and fear. You are unconsciously striking back at your drunken, abusive, Pa. But that’s not intentional, you don’t hate him, you need that anger to give you that high. You are GRATEFUL you had your filthy butt whipped all your young life. You do the same favor for your own kids. And as time goes on, you need more chemical from within. That means you need more psychological confrontation to provoke a physical assault, in order to trip the parasympathetic nervous system triggers.  > Dogman You are one SICK S.O.B. J>>> "Thus we should beware of clinging to vulgar opinions, and judge things by reason’s way, not by popular say." Montaigne "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Salvor Hardin "If you cannot convince them, confuse them." H.S. Truman. ;~) DRAINING THE SWAMP, AND RELOCATING THE GATORS… J>>> "CUSTOM WILL RECONCILE PEOPLE TO ANY ATROCITY." G.B. Shaw. "I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives."                                              Leo Tolstoy Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:                                             caveat If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would rather not have to do, then you shouldn’t be doing them. If you have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate, that the dog won’t think of you as the punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can’t train your dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe. Sincerely, Jerry Howe, Wits’ End Dog Training http://www.doggydoright.com Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.                       -Francis Bacon- There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who ever can’t hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.                      -Nietzsche- The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned qualities. The Wits’ End Dog Training Method challenges the learning centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged, develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter. The Wits’ End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.                   -Jerry Howe-

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [...] >> The same holds true for punishment here, if the puppy makes a >> "mistake" — it just doesn’t work, so don’t do it. >Hello lyingdogDUMMY, >You callin koehler a liar? > Nope.  You just can’t read, Howe. >This is where Koehler really pays off: >Housebreaking problems: >"Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself >inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go >outside. This dog may require punishment." > [...] > Howe, what part of "Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined > to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has > the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment" don’t > you understand?????? > Oh yeah…BTW…where are those TWO names, addresses and phone numbers > of people who have actually purchased one of your worthless DDR > contraptions? > OIC…there aren’t any names? > BWAHAHAHAHAHA! > Dogman > http://www.i1.net/~dogman

Bwahahahahahahaha, yourself. Here’s two who’ve documented themselves with shaw and dw…    Apr 25, 05:59 PM Margaret Hoffman    Message 1 of 19 Doggy Do Right and Jerry Howe I just recently looked at this newsgroup and I found it incredible. I do have a Doggy Do Right and have had it for about one year. It truly does work – at least on my Dobe, Chelsea. Chelsea was the unhappy recipient of several failed attempts at obedience training, both in a "class" environment and with a personal trainer. She is very high spirited and strong and, unfortunately, spoiled, since we are an older couple who doted on our dog. We were lucky enough to find Jerry Howe and to not only buy a Doggy Do Right, but to also have him personally work with Chelsea. His methods are wonderful and effective. Chelsea is not a dog that you will bully, and I wouldn’t dream of hurting her. After Jerry spent time with her, she no longer jumped on furniture, ate food off the counter, pulled me incessantly on the leash. She is calmer and we are all happier. Well, it is a very long story and I won’t bore you with all the details, but suffice it to say that Jerry Howe saved the day for our dog and for us. Marge Hoffman P.S. You can send me the reward money, but I won’t sell you my DDR! Another poster with pit bulls and feral cat rescue writes: Hi Jerry, Well, we have been running Doggy Do Right for awhile (3 weeks) now and would appear that it is working. We are still on the lowest setting but my cat aggressive dog is now much calmer with the little fur balls getting near her. Not perfect but much improved! I do think that you need a more universal name as it appears to have drastically cut the spraying problem down that we have with our crowded cat situation. I am going to send an e-mail to Domesti-Cats club, Feral Cat Network and Space Cats Club as a lot of the members have some of the same problems with their cats. It has also lessened the number of nightly cat fights. Thanks, Elaine Hi, Lowest setting to us is when the machine is on the least number of times during the day. We are going to try  putting it on the next setting and see if that will completely solve our problems. We are holding our breath at this point on the spraying and hoping that BIOSOUND continues to work. Will let you know. Yes, feel free to use my post. If you sell to people with cat spray problems though you might want to recommend that they do what we did. We went through the house with BacTerminator an enzyme product that eats the cat urine. We have used Bac T. for a long time and it usually only slows them down for a week or two, so I know it is the BIOSOUND that has created the success we are seeing right now. We were resigned to constant cleaning and even then it was difficult to keep up with. I don’t know if you have forgotten but we have 19 cats. Elaine

Response:

[...] > The same holds true for punishment here, if the puppy makes a > "mistake" — it just doesn’t work, so don’t do it. >Hello lyingdogDUMMY, >You callin koehler a liar?

Nope.  You just can’t read, Howe. >This is where Koehler really pays off: >Housebreaking problems: >"Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself >inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go >outside. This dog may require punishment."

[...] Howe, what part of "Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment" don’t you understand?????? Oh yeah…BTW…where are those TWO names, addresses and phone numbers of people who have actually purchased one of your worthless DDR contraptions? OIC…there aren’t any names? BWAHAHAHAHAHA! — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman

Response:

> It does no harm, of course, to praise a puppy when it goes outside, > and it may offer some help, but the reality of the situation is this, > it probably does very little, if anything, to affect the puppy’s > future behavior. > The same holds true for punishment here, if the puppy makes a > "mistake" — it just doesn’t work, so don’t do it. > Dogman > http://www.i1.net/~dogman

Hello lyingdogDUMMY, You callin koehler a liar? This is where Koehler really pays off: Housebreaking problems: "Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is quipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing  an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him. "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" Howell Book House, 1996 ron likes to use the heavy belt on his dogs "Read for content" Mark Shaw, Sadist, rpdb regular. "I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn. "There’s much wisdom in koehler," deana pace. "Read koehler," lyingdogdirty. "Read koehler," ludwig smith "I’m not a koehler trainer," cindymoron, lyinglynn. But they both spout koehler’s methods. They don’t consider themselves koehler trainers because they shock dog too… lyinglynn writes: > For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and > pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it. > When he barks, use the line for a correction.

A CORRECTION? You’re going to JERK and CHOKE the dog out of being AFRAID… that’s CORRECTION? lyinlynn says: "I LOVE KOEHLER," and in the next breath denies being a ‘koehler trainer.’ Is that because she ALSO shocks dogs, and koehler never had a shock collar? Pity that he was born too late to benefit from such a wondrous teaching tool, ISN’T it??? > Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is > something you twisted out of context, because you > are full of bizarro manure.

LIAR. I’ll just copy a direct quote or two or three or four or five or six… HOWE many direct quotes would you like??? Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears (INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES). I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM). I would never advise anyone to slap a dog (SHE’S A PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you expect her to ADMIT THE TRUTH???). I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists… and chin cuff doesn’t mean hit, according to lyinglynn and avrama…. amy lyingfrosty dahl continues: "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG. Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in" With your hand on the collar and ear, say, ‘fetch.’ Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch. You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb; even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching its ear. if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell. > They include: Amy Dahl,

Oh yes, we were just mentioning some of her methods, weren’t we… She likes to beat Retriever dogs with sticks to motivate dogs to WANT to retrieve. She pinches ears, not twists them. NO mention of twisting of toes or testicles, and she shocks and chin cuffs, NOT SLAPS, retriever dogs, to teach them to retrieve… NICE stuff, huh? > Diane Blackman,

Yes, diane… She’s as confused and deceitful as they come. She knits cover-ups for pronged choke collars so she can train dogs illegally on akc showgrounds, and so that people won’t SEE the prongs and think the less of her… She twists words better than you can, BECAUSE SHE HASN’T GOT BAGGED FOR LYING, LIKE YOU DID. She’s got a dog who’s been a chronic puller for five years, and she day boards her dogs because she can’t trust them at home alone. Her links page has lots of lousy advice, but diane won’t edit the lousy ones that teach HURTING dogs, because she says she doesn’t know enough about training to discern good from bad information… Whaddaya thaink of that? > Janet Boss,

Jerks dogs around on pronged collars to make them friendly. She’s as incompetent a creature as G-D could possibly create. I’ll be throwing THAT in HIS face when I get there… She has no business telling people to kill their dogs because their only option is to jerk the dog around and keep him confined for the rest of his life. See the thread ”interested in hearing” and you’ll see for yourself HOWE you bums mishandle and kill dogs because you don’t have any IDEAS and can’t outwit a puppydog… > Susan Fraser,

susan twists and pinches ears and toes and shocks and chokes dogs on pronged choke collars. But she doesn’t hurt them. > Avrama Gingold,

Our Professora… She got her damned teeth knocked down her throat when her dog finally figured out HOWE to hurt her back, and make it look like an accident. That’s called allelomimetic behavior. avrama had a habit of jerking him to make him heel or come, but always made it look like the dog did it to himself. Dogs are smart. Don’t take my word for it, that’s in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual. > Lynn Kosmakos,

Our pathological liar? She jerks and chokes and hangs dogs according to the koehler method. She justifies force because there are so many dogs to HELP and such little time to HELP them all, at the shelter she kills dogs at. > Bob Maida,

What advice? "Don’t let him do that?" Killfiles is all he writes about. He can’t talk dog training because he is a violent dog trainer. If he opens his yap, I shove his foot in it for him and hammer on top of his head till he’s craping toenails… He’s no dog trainer. He said he recommends cindymoron’s Website to his ‘’students” and they tell him HOWE much they’ve benefited from it… cindymron’s site has instructions for sticking your fingers down puppies throats to choke them out of mouthing, kneeing the dog in the chest, shocking, throwing the dog down by his ears and climbing on him like a wild animal, pinching and twisting ears, choking, jerking, and sticking dog’s heads under water you’ve filled into a hole he’s dug to break dogs of digging. I guess boob’s student’s only learned the jerking and choking from him… Your pal boob had been begging his ”teacher” cap’n faggotty to debate me here, and smarten me up. He sent his little girl to write me a threatening letter saying she’d sue me if I told the truth here… Then, your pal boob suggested there would be a motorcycle gang paying me a little visit… Do you ride, lyindoc? I may be able to get you a good deal on some dead bikers machines. > Cindy Tittle Moore,

A true sadist. She gets pleasure for dominating and hurting dogs. Read her forced fetch page, that will show you HOWE excited she gets just at the thought of hurting dogs. Did you see my … read more »

Response:

>>Hi everyone……I am new to the group so be gentle on me >I know you have probably heard this a million times in different >scenarios……but I am at the end of my rope!!!!! >My 6 mos old  female Golden…has noooooo clue she has to go outside to >pee/poop except when she first rises in the morning…..and then…..she >just pees……I’ve stayed out there for a lonnnnnnng time with her, to >no avail……I bring her in……she disappears for a sec and goes >A "reward" may not be a reinforcer. A reinforcer is something that >occurs after behavior that increases the frequency of that >behavior. In plain words, your dog will work for it, the reinforcer.

[...] No one will ever convince me that puppies "go outside" to achieve a "reward," and they (rewards) play little if any part in a puppy’s housetraining — in my opinion. Puppies "go outside," because, in the Pavlovian classical sense (i.e., a bell is rung, the taste of food stimulates salivation, the bell being rung begins to connote food, soon the bell alone initiates salivation, yadda yadda yadda), they have been "conditioned" to go outside by a wise owner, one who doesn’t allow the puppy to ever become conditioned to going "inside." E.g., puppy has full bladder or bowel, puppy is taken outside, puppy is told to "hurry up," puppy smells grass, dirt, etc., sees previous landmarks, puppy "goes."  Eventually, just the words "hurry up," the act of being outside, the smell of dirt, grass, etc., will "stimulate" the puppy to go — even when its bladder or bowel isn’t full, it will still try to go. No "reward" (in the operant sense) is necessary here.  That’s why people who allow a dog to inadvertently become "conditioned" to going inside (because they somehow allowed the dog to go "inside") are amazed when praise and rewards (when the puppy is eventually taken outside in time) have little effect on the puppy’s future behavior. It does no harm, of course, to praise a puppy when it goes outside, and it may offer some help, but the reality of the situation is this, it probably does very little, if anything, to affect the puppy’s future behavior. The same holds true for punishment here, if the puppy makes a "mistake" — it just doesn’t work, so don’t do it. If you want to "housetrain" a puppy quickly, to get him to go outside, you just cannot allow it to make mistakes inside.  Ever.  Period. "disappears" (you just can NOT let your puppy ever "disappear" when it’s not housetrained) for a second and goes where she pleases, eh?   That’s precisely why this puppy is 6 months old and still not housebroken — it’s not because the lady isn’t "rewarding" her puppy effectively enough when it does goes outside. — Dogman http://www.i1.net/~dogman

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>Hi everyone……I am new to the group so be gentle on me >I know you have probably heard this a million times in different >scenarios……but I am at the end of my rope!!!!! >My 6 mos old  female Golden…has noooooo clue she has to go outside to >pee/poop except when she first rises in the morning…..and then…..she >just pees……I’ve stayed out there for a lonnnnnnng time with her, to >no avail……I bring her in……she disappears for a sec and goes

A "reward" may not be a reinforcer. A reinforcer is something that occurs after behavior that increases the frequency of that behavior. In plain words, your dog will work for it, the reinforcer. So, put aside the house training issue for a second, and ask yourself whether your girl will work for this reward. If not, then you better find something that she does "value" i.e., functions as a reinforcer. –Marshall I have read rpdb for about four years. Consequently, I urge newbies to attend to the civil and rational posts of the rpdb regulars from whom I have learned much. They include: Amy Dahl, Diane Blackman, jdoee, Janet Boss, Susan Fraser, Avrama Gingold, Nancy Holmes, Lynn Kosmakos, Bob Maida, Ruth Mays, Cindy Tittle Moore, Denna Pace, John Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig Smith, Jane Webb, and Terri Willis. Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of                http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer "Knowing how things work is the basis for appreciation, and is thus a source of civilized delight."–William Safire

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi everyone……I am new to the group so be gentle on me > I know you have probably heard this a million times in different > scenarios……but I am at the end of my rope!!!!! > My 6 mos old  female Golden…has noooooo clue she has to go outside to > pee/poop except when she first rises in the morning…..and then…..she > just pees……I’ve stayed out there for a lonnnnnnng time with her, to > no avail……I bring her in……she disappears for a sec and goes outside… > I’ve watched her for signs that she has to go….none…. > never goes near the door…..etc > How can I get her trained??? > Thanks in advance for those that sighed and took pity on me to answer > this question! )) > Lori

This is where Koehler really pays off: Housebreaking problems: "Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog may require punishment. Make certain he is quipped with a collar and piece of line so he can’t avoid correction. When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to the place of his error, and hold his head close enough so that he associates his error with the punishment. Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper. It is important to your future relationship that you do not rush at him and start swinging before you get hold of him. When he’s been spanked, take him outside. Chances are, if you are careful in your feeding and close observation, you will not have to do much punishing. Be consistent in your handling. To have a pup almost house-broken and then force him to commit an error by not providing  an opportunity to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will make your job easier. The same general techniques of housebreaking apply to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house. For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and then backslides, the method of correction differs somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the "revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed. The first step of correction is to confine the dog closely in a part of the house when you go away, so that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves you no other course than to punish him sufficiently to convince him that the satisfaction of his wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these "backsliders" will think they’re winning and will continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by the mess he’s made so you can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish him again for the same thing. In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the light spanking that some owners seem to think is adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog, as well as the house, if you really pour it on him. "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" Howell Book House, 1996 ron likes to use the heavy belt on his dogs "Read for content" Mark Shaw, Sadist, rpdb regular. "I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn. "There’s much wisdom in koehler," deana pace. "Read koehler," lyingdogdirty. "Read koehler," ludwig smith "I’m not a koehler trainer," cindymoron, lyinglynn. lyinglynn writes: > For barking in the crate – leave the leash on and > pass it through the crate door.  Attach a line to it. > When he barks, use the line for a correction.

A CORRECTION? You’re going to JERK and CHOKE the dog out of being AFRAID… that’s CORRECTION? lyinlynn says: "I LOVE KOEHLER," and in the next breath denies being a ‘koehler trainer.’ Is that because she ALSO shocks dogs, and koehler never had a shock collar? Pity that he was born too late to benefit from such a wondrous teaching tool, ISN’T it??? > Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is > something you twisted out of context, because you > are full of bizarro manure.

LIAR. I’ll just copy a direct quote or two or three or four or five or six… HOWE many direct quotes would you like??? Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears (INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES). I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM). I would never advise anyone to slap a dog (SHE’S A PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you expect her to ADMIT THE TRUTH???). I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists… and chin cuff doesn’t mean hit, according to lyinglynn and avrama…. amy lyingfrosty dahl continues: "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG. Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in" With your hand on the collar and ear, say, ‘fetch.’ Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch. You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb; even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching its ear. if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell. > They include: Amy Dahl,

Oh yes, we were just mentioning some of her methods, weren’t we… She likes to beat Retriever dogs with sticks to motivate dogs to WANT to retrieve. She pinches ears, not twists them. NO mention of twisting of toes or testicles, and she shocks and chin cuffs, NOT SLAPS, retriever dogs, to teach them to retrieve… NICE stuff, huh? > Diane Blackman,

Yes, diane… She’s as confused and deceitful as they come. She knits cover-ups for pronged choke collars so she can train dogs illegally on akc showgrounds, and so that people won’t SEE the prongs and think the less of her… She twists words better than you can, BECAUSE SHE HASN’T GOT BAGGED FOR LYING, LIKE YOU DID. She’s got a dog who’s been a chronic puller for five years, and she day boards her dogs because she can’t trust them at home alone. Her links page has lots of lousy advice, but diane won’t edit the lousy ones that teach HURTING dogs, because she says she doesn’t know enough about training to discern good from bad information… Whaddaya thaink of that? > Janet Boss,

Jerks dogs around on pronged collars to make them friendly. She’s as incompetent a creature as G-D could possibly create. I’ll be throwing THAT in HIS face when I get there… She has no business telling people to kill their dogs because their only option is to jerk the dog around and keep him confined for the rest of his life. See the thread ”interested in hearing” and you’ll see for yourself HOWE you bums mishandle and kill dogs because you don’t have any IDEAS and can’t outwit a puppydog… > Susan Fraser,

susan twists and pinches ears and toes and shocks and chokes dogs on pronged choke collars. But she doesn’t hurt them. > Avrama Gingold,

Our Professora… She got her damned teeth knocked down her throat when her dog finally figured out HOWE to hurt her back, and make it look like an accident. That’s called allelomimetic behavior. avrama had a habit of jerking him to make him heel or come, but always made it look like the dog did it to himself. Dogs are smart. Don’t take my word for it, that’s in the Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual. > Lynn Kosmakos,

Our pathological liar? She jerks and chokes and hangs dogs according to the koehler method. She justifies force because there are so many dogs to HELP and such little time to HELP them all, at the shelter she kills dogs at. > Bob Maida,

What advice? "Don’t let him do that?" Killfiles is all he writes about. He can’t talk dog training because he is a violent dog trainer. If he opens his yap, I shove his foot in it for him and hammer on top of his head till he’s craping toenails… He’s no dog trainer. He said he recommends cindymoron’s Website to his ‘’students” and they tell him HOWE much they’ve benefited from it… cindymron’s site has instructions for sticking your fingers down puppies throats to choke them out of mouthing, kneeing the dog in the chest, shocking, throwing the dog down by his ears and climbing on him like a wild animal, pinching and twisting ears, choking, jerking, and sticking dog’s heads under water you’ve filled into a hole he’s dug to break dogs of digging. I guess boob’s student’s only learned the jerking and choking from him… Your pal boob had been begging his ”teacher” cap’n faggotty to debate me here, and smarten me up. He sent his little girl to write me a threatening letter saying she’d sue me if I told the truth here… Then, your pal boob suggested there would be a motorcycle gang paying me a little visit… Do you ride, lyindoc? I may be able to get you a good deal on some dead bikers machines.

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Response:

Hi everyone……I am new to the group so be gentle on me I know you have probably heard this a million times in different scenarios……but I am at the end of my rope!!!!! My 6 mos old  female Golden…has noooooo clue she has to go outside to pee/poop except when she first rises in the morning…..and then…..she just pees……I’ve stayed out there for a lonnnnnnng time with her, to no avail……I bring her in……she disappears for a sec and goes I’ve watched her for signs that she has to go….none…. never goes near the door…..etc How can I get her trained??? Thanks in advance for those that sighed and took pity on me to answer this question! )) Lori Before you buy.

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