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Question:

For the owner of this puppy and the parent of this child I recommend you get copies of How to Play with Your Dog a read aloud book for youngsters that has lesson plans on how to teach your kid and dog to play safe games in the back of it. Also SuperPuppy or How to Raise the Best Dog You Will Ever Have both are available from SuperPuppy Press at 619-489-1818 (CA time zone but they have a machine to take orders too) these books are inexpensive and IMO GREAT! I give copies to all puppy/dog buyers/adopters and have given them to all my local animal shelters and local breeders too Full of all the inf. it takes years of reading (even this group <g>) and learning from your dogs and other dog folks to find out about Nancy snip> >I’m getting great advice…thanks! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Maybe you can help me with a couple of other ‘problems’. >1) Sometimes my 8 week old puppy is too much for my 4 year old daughter. >She’s just playing, of that I’m sure.  But sometimes the play is too rough. > My daughters frantic excitement only feeds it, too.  The puppy (Ginger) >will nip at my daughters legs, nip at her hair, etc.  Whem I’m around, I’ll >scold her (I think maybe that’s wrong, too), or use a penny can (is this >still an ‘acceptable’ training tool) which usually works.  However, today I >didn’t have a penny can handy, scolding didn’t work, so I had to pull her >off of my scared daughter.  I explained to my daughter that getting too >excited and screaming only excites the dog more, but…she is only 4. >Suggestions on how to handle this for the best long term benefits would be >appreciated (I expect the puppy to quickly outgrow my daughter, so I want >her to understand what she can/cannot do).

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Response:

Hi Gina, How delighted I am to find another dog-bible person <ggg>.  It’s a very useful approach to learning – and providing assistance, too. > Mike, > I have 5 books that I consider dog bibles. > 1. Why Does My Dog, Written by John Fisher (dog behaviourist)

I don’t know that one; I’ll have to try to get hold of it. > 2. Think Dog, Written by John Fisher > 3. Dog’s Mind, Written by Bruce Fogle (dog behaviourist)

I have these two.  Each has its good qualities.  I find John Fisher’s writing in "Think Dog" a little bit of "mental shorthand" – where John Fisher understands what he’s trying to say, but I believe he doesn’t give enough detail, nor stage things as though in a drama enough – to communicate easily with every reader.  You kinda have to cook up your own theories about just what he means at times.  This is how John Fisher’s "Think Dog" misses my primary bible-list <g>. But you can’t go wrong with John Fisher. > 4. Every Dog, Written by Eric Allan & Rowan Blogg (2 vets)

I don’t know this one – where is it published – who’s the publisher? > 5. Do Dogs Need Shrinks, Written by Peter Neville (dog behaviourist)

You wouldn’t!  :-)  It’s kinda fun reading, but I hardly found it enlightening.  Did you?  Are you familiar with the ones I’ve short-listed here recently?  (I’ll list them again.)  Now you’ll have me re-reading my copy, to see if I think Neville offers any real insights for dog owners.  I believe Donaldson is better at it. <g>.  As is Kilcommons.  (Pryor isn’t that specific about dogs.) Here’s my bible (again, with apologies). 1) Karen Pryor, "Don’t Shoot The Dog" 2) Jean Donaldson, "The Culture Clash" 3) Brian Kilcommons, "Good Owners, Great Dogs." Somebody reminded me about 4) Clarice Rutherford & David H. Neil; "How to Raise a Puppy You Can Live With." I’m re-reading that one now, to decide whether I boost it up from my supplementary list to my primary list.  I’ve re-read the first part; having read the second numbers of times, I have previously felt the recommendations weren’t ones I’d particularly use, and that Pryor and Donaldson, and Kilcommons, have better recommendations.  But the information in the first part is excellent, and should be understood by all dog owners. *** ANTI-SPAM address in effect!  to email, remove the "q" from "carolq" ***    – Carol Whitney   Sat 20-Sep-97; 19:30 —  * RoseReader 2.52B P001545 Entered at [BB&C]

Response:

<snip> >1) Sometimes my 8 week old puppy is too much for my 4 year old daughter. >She’s just playing, of that I’m sure.  But sometimes the play is too rough.

<snip> Not being a parent myself, I can’t claim a ton of experience in this department, but here are my thoughts. You’re dealing with two very immature critters, right? Rather than relying too heavily on correction, I would suggest you make a stronger effort at prevention. Young children and puppies =both= respond better to physical shaping than logic and/or commands alone, so restrict their interaction to those times when you can be right alongside them. When Ginger starts nipping, =physically= restrain her and/or distract her with a toy. There has been lots of discussion on teaching bite inhibition on this group (check Deja News) and certainly all adults who interact with the pup should apply it, but your daughter likely cannot do so effectively or consistently =herself.= IME, dogs who are corrected _by_an_adult_ while periodically "getting away" with infractions _with_children_ quickly sort out that the rules DON’T APPLY to kids. Yucko. Again, IMO, it’s better to prevent =entirely= such behavior until the pup has matured and internalized "no nipping, EVER" whereupon she will be disinclined to search out exceptions. As for general rowdiness and jumping up, again, prevention is better than correction for many of the same reasons. One easy way to establish a "four on the floor" habit is to attach a light nylon cord to the puppy’s collar (ONLY when supervised, of course) that can be unobtrusively stepped on when she attempts to jump up. Frankly, I think most puppies simply don’t know that they CAN have fun =without= hopping all over — she needs to be shown! <g> Your daughter, at her age, actually learns in similar ways. When you see her excitement becoming excessive, instead of verbal reminders try modeling calm restraint and physically directing her in it as well. (How coordinated are you? <g>) Use one foot to step on the puppy’s lead (so she can no longer jump up), then squat down and use your hands to quiet your daughters flailing arms. Make eye contact and do the "Shhh" gesture with your finger at your (or her) lips. Then, show her some calmer ways to interact with the puppy with your hand over or alongside hers; try offering the puppy a toy together, or quietly stroking him as he settles down. When I worked, years ago, in a pet store, I found this approach =highly= successful with the tots  – they need to SEE IT and PRACTICE IT many, many times until the habit is learned. Plus, by the time they are excited or scared, they’re reacting on instinct… Finally, the principle of "short and sweet" applies to all youngsters, human and canine. Limit their play sessions to prevent either from becoming impatient or over-tired, and to times when you can be very attentive. A half-dozen ten-minute sessions are more productive than one hour-long session. <snip> >Suggestions on how to handle this for the best long term benefits would be >appreciated (I expect the puppy to quickly outgrow my daughter, so I want >her to understand what she can/cannot do).

Plus, since Ginger will be =emotionally= mature sooner than your daughter, there will be plenty of time to actively teach her self-restraint. For now, as an infant puppy, focus on prevention and the establishment of good habits. >2) Leash…I’m introducing the pup to the leash. I put it on her, and run >around the yard.  I also try to use it to move her through the house (she’s >not housebroken).  For example, to take her to/from her crate at night.  I >could cary her, but I really want her to respond to the leash.  This is >sometimes a problem and I end up carrying her anyway (she fights the >leash’s direction).  Of course, I could pull her along, but that’s probably >not really effective training either.

If she’s fighting the lead, back up your training a step or two — as I said before, think of this early time as when good (or bad) habits are established. If she spends =more time= resisting the lead than eagerly going with YOU, how can she not associate the lead with resistance? Let her drag the lead on her own for a time to establish it as no big deal. When this is established, pick it up and follow her about, then periodically =stop= following, bend over, say "Ginger!" brightly (maybe clap once or twice) and try to get her to come to you. Then reward and release. The next step is having her not only come to you, but to FOLLOW you for a few steps. Just add distance as she becomes ready. Keep the sessions brief and upbeat — "short and sweet." For the times when you =need= to get from point A to point B in a business-like manner (like outside to potty in the morning), just carry her. I know you don’t want to … but look at it this way: Saying "I want her to respond to the leash" before she’s been =taught= to do so is replacing the process with the goal – doesn’t work. That’s like demanding that a 15 year old drive himself to Driver’s Ed because "I want him to learn to drive." <g> I guarantee you — if you take the time to teach walking on lead step-by-step, you will NOT be carrying Ginger for the rest of her life! >3) Read any good books lately?

<snip> No dog books. (I’ve been reading up on horses…) But years ago _Beyond Basic Dog Training_ by Diane Bauman changed my life.  ;-> — Alicia Knapp, The DoberGRLs, Echo and Mako and Boomer, The Dog of Eternal Stench, in Anoka, MN Home is where the dogs are. I do not respond to trolls or trollish posts! Refer to: http://www.geocities.com/heartland/plains/4120/oddsnends.html for a list of r.p.d.*’s trolls. Newbies to r.p.d.* should always start here!

Response:

  Michael,    First of all, you are doing the right thing by asking questions NOW! Many people get into bad ruts with their dogs, and the dogs learn bad habits, and the problems are not so easy as they are now.   As far as playing with the child goes, it sounds as if the problem here is the escalaiton of play.  I’m sure you will hear this fromo others, but never leave the two babies alone together.  Your daughter, probably preety clumsy at this stage, may hurt the pup, which would be horrible for all involved.  Or, the pup could hurt the child- nip her in the face….  I would limit play times between the two to times when the child is calm, and the pup is tired.  Monitor the play, so you can help your daughter understand what she may be doing to agitate the pup, and you can be there to separate them as soon as things get wound up.    The Leash:   Pups sometimes take time to come around to the leash,  I will let others help you on this (I have to run…)   As far as books go, I cannot recommend "the art of raising a puppy" by the Monks of New Skete highly enough.  This book will really help you to understand the developmental phases of the pup, as well as how to train your dog in the gentlest manner possible.    That said, as I know I may be opening up a can of worms here, but I am not a big Koehler fan.  I feel that his methods are too harsh for *me*.  I certainly think it’s too much for a young pup.   What I would advise now is to take your pup to Puppy Kindergarten, as soon as the shots are done (16 weeks if I recall).  Also take your daughter along so she can learn how to work the pup- I have seen small kids in every PK class I’ve been in.  Find a class that uses treats to motivate- because hey, it’s just a little baby dog, they need to start out woth the gentlest training possible, so that training is fun for them, not a chore.    Gotta run,  good luck, Saxon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I’m getting great advice…thanks! >Maybe you can help me with a couple of other ‘problems’. >1) Sometimes my 8 week old puppy is too much for my 4 year old daughter. >She’s just playing, of that I’m sure.  But sometimes the play is too rough. > My daughters frantic excitement only feeds it, too.  The puppy (Ginger) >will nip at my daughters legs, nip at her hair, etc.  Whem I’m around, I’ll >scold her (I think maybe that’s wrong, too), or use a penny can (is this >still an ‘acceptable’ training tool) which usually works.  However, today I >didn’t have a penny can handy, scolding didn’t work, so I had to pull her >off of my scared daughter.  I explained to my daughter that getting too >excited and screaming only excites the dog more, but…she is only 4. >Suggestions on how to handle this for the best long term benefits would be >appreciated (I expect the puppy to quickly outgrow my daughter, so I want >her to understand what she can/cannot do). >2) Leash…I’m introducing the pup to the leash. I put it on her, and run >around the yard.  I also try to use it to move her through the house (she’s >not housebroken).  For example, to take her to/from her crate at night.  I >could cary her, but I really want her to respond to the leash.  This is >sometimes a problem and I end up carrying her anyway (she fights the >leash’s direction).  Of course, I could pull her along, but that’s probably >not really effective training either. >3) Read any good books lately?  I enjoy reading/learning anyway, so the >more I can understand what I need to do to make this a grrrreat >relationship, the better.  Book/video recommendations on the best >techinques would be appreciated. >Thanks (again) >-Mike >PS: Ginger has a vet appointment tomorrow.  I’ll make sure she’s checked >for UTI.

– *Saxon Brown                        *  Experience is a hard teacher-   * *Department of EPO Biology          * The test comes before the lesson * *University of Colorado at Boulder  *                                  *

Response:

Mike asked about books The  BEST books for a puppy owner is Brian Kilcommons’ "Good Owners, Great Dogs" and "Child-Proofing Your Dog".  Lots of good information about dogs, behavior, training, problem PREVENTION (so you don’t have to RESORT to  Koehler methods)   Allow your daughter and puppy to interact only when puppy is tired and ready to be calm.  Neither an 8 week old puppy or a 4 year old child have the capablilities for restraint.  Both are learning and right now the puppy is learning that your daughter is a fun toy, and your daughter is learning that puppies are not fun.   Keep up your good work.  Supervise, Supervise, Supervise. -Meric

Response:

UTI is Urinary Tract Infection… I agree that MOST of the time, it’s easier to teach my daughter than my dog.  Some days, I really wonder, though.  :-) I’ve been very careful to try to remain calm at all times.  I explain what the dog is doing and why to my daughter…and I’ll keep doing that as well. You mention that you get your information off the internet.  My guess is you have a few ‘favorite’ web sites that you’ve found to be helpful?  Wanna share? -Mike

Response:

Mike –   welcome to puppyhood, all of it’s fun, and all of it’s pains! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I’m getting great advice…thanks! >Maybe you can help me with a couple of other ‘problems’. >1) Sometimes my 8 week old puppy is too much for my 4 year old daughter. >She’s just playing, of that I’m sure.  But sometimes the play is too rough. > My daughters frantic excitement only feeds it, too.  The puppy (Ginger) >will nip at my daughters legs, nip at her hair, etc.  Whem I’m around, I’ll >scold her (I think maybe that’s wrong, too), or use a penny can (is this >still an ‘acceptable’ training tool) which usually works.  However, today I >didn’t have a penny can handy, scolding didn’t work, so I had to pull her >off of my scared daughter.  I explained to my daughter that getting too >excited and screaming only excites the dog more, but…she is only 4. >Suggestions on how to handle this for the best long term benefits would be >appreciated (I expect the puppy to quickly outgrow my daughter, so I want >her to understand what she can/cannot do).

all times.  Young children and young puppies both get "hyped up" pretty easily, and you need to help both of them learn how to interact calmly.  I have never been a shake-can fan (as you noted, you dind’t have it handy at the time).  I like to rely on my voice and my hands (stern No or ENOUGH, small scruff shake – NO hitting!) >2) Leash…I’m introducing the pup to the leash. I put it on her, and run >around the yard.  I also try to use it to move her through the house (she’s >not housebroken).  For example, to take her to/from her crate at night.  I >could cary her, but I really want her to respond to the leash.  This is >sometimes a problem and I end up carrying her anyway (she fights the >leash’s direction).  Of course, I could pull her along, but that’s probably >not really effective training either.

moving her about with your voice instead of the leash?  Very young puppies, especially depending on size, often need carrying until they gain a bit beeter control of their bladders (I’ve known some, that as long as they were in the crate, were fine – one foot out the crate door and flood-city! >3) Read any good books lately?  I enjoy reading/learning anyway, so the >more I can understand what I need to do to make this a grrrreat >relationship, the better.  Book/video recommendations on the best >techinques would be appreciated.

******* I think that one of the best, most enjoyable reading,  books on puppy raising, is Carol Benjamin’s "Mother Knows Best".  A lot of common sense – doesn’t forget to remind you to have FUN with your puppy instead of just all "business", and is a great reference for every aspect of you puppy’s life.  I’d skip Koehler.  Whether you agree with his techiniques or not, they aren’t for puppy training for the most part. >Thanks (again) >-Mike >PS: Ginger has a vet appointment tomorrow.  I’ll make sure she’s checked >for UTI.

Janet Boss Best Friends Dog Obedience "Nice Manners for the Family Pet"

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m getting great advice…thanks! > Maybe you can help me with a couple of other ‘problems’. > 1) Sometimes my 8 week old puppy is too much for my 4 year old daughter. > She’s just playing, of that I’m sure.  But sometimes the play is too rough. >  My daughters frantic excitement only feeds it, too.  The puppy (Ginger) > will nip at my daughters legs, nip at her hair, etc.  Whem I’m around, I’ll > scold her (I think maybe that’s wrong, too), or use a penny can (is this > still an ‘acceptable’ training tool) which usually works.  However, today I > didn’t have a penny can handy, scolding didn’t work, so I had to pull her > off of my scared daughter.  I explained to my daughter that getting too > excited and screaming only excites the dog more, but…she is only 4. > Suggestions on how to handle this for the best long term benefits would be > appreciated (I expect the puppy to quickly outgrow my daughter, so I want > her to understand what she can/cannot do). > 2) Leash…I’m introducing the pup to the leash. I put it on her, and run > around the yard.  I also try to use it to move her through the house (she’s > not housebroken).  For example, to take her to/from her crate at night.  I > could cary her, but I really want her to respond to the leash.  This is > sometimes a problem and I end up carrying her anyway (she fights the > leash’s direction).  Of course, I could pull her along, but that’s probably > not really effective training either. > 3) Read any good books lately?  I enjoy reading/learning anyway, so the > more I can understand what I need to do to make this a grrrreat > relationship, the better.  Book/video recommendations on the best > techinques would be appreciated. > Thanks (again) > -Mike > PS: Ginger has a vet appointment tomorrow.  I’ll make sure she’s checked > for UTI.

Mike, I have 5 books that I consider dog bibles. 1. Why Does My Dog, Written by John Fisher (dog behaviourist) 2. Think Dog, Written by John Fisher 3. Dog’s Mind, Written by Bruce Fogle (dog behaviourist) 4. Every Dog, Written by Eric Allan & Rowan Blogg (2 vets) 5. Do Dogs Need Shrinks, Written by Peter Neville (dog behaviourist) Hope they help, Gina

Response:

I’m getting great advice…thanks! Maybe you can help me with a couple of other ‘problems’. 1) Sometimes my 8 week old puppy is too much for my 4 year old daughter. She’s just playing, of that I’m sure.  But sometimes the play is too rough.  My daughters frantic excitement only feeds it, too.  The puppy (Ginger) will nip at my daughters legs, nip at her hair, etc.  Whem I’m around, I’ll scold her (I think maybe that’s wrong, too), or use a penny can (is this still an ‘acceptable’ training tool) which usually works.  However, today I didn’t have a penny can handy, scolding didn’t work, so I had to pull her off of my scared daughter.  I explained to my daughter that getting too excited and screaming only excites the dog more, but…she is only 4. Suggestions on how to handle this for the best long term benefits would be appreciated (I expect the puppy to quickly outgrow my daughter, so I want her to understand what she can/cannot do). 2) Leash…I’m introducing the pup to the leash. I put it on her, and run around the yard.  I also try to use it to move her through the house (she’s not housebroken).  For example, to take her to/from her crate at night.  I could cary her, but I really want her to respond to the leash.  This is sometimes a problem and I end up carrying her anyway (she fights the leash’s direction).  Of course, I could pull her along, but that’s probably not really effective training either. 3) Read any good books lately?  I enjoy reading/learning anyway, so the more I can understand what I need to do to make this a grrrreat relationship, the better.  Book/video recommendations on the best techinques would be appreciated. Thanks (again) -Mike PS: Ginger has a vet appointment tomorrow.  I’ll make sure she’s checked for UTI.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’m getting great advice…thanks! > Maybe you can help me with a couple of other ‘problems’. > 1) Sometimes my 8 week old puppy is too much for my 4 year old daughter. > She’s just playing, of that I’m sure.  But sometimes the play is too rough. >  My daughters frantic excitement only feeds it, too.  The puppy (Ginger) > will nip at my daughters legs, nip at her hair, etc.  Whem I’m around, I’ll > scold her (I think maybe that’s wrong, too), or use a penny can (is this > still an ‘acceptable’ training tool) which usually works.  However, today I > didn’t have a penny can handy, scolding didn’t work, so I had to pull her > off of my scared daughter.  I explained to my daughter that getting too > excited and screaming only excites the dog more, but…she is only 4. > Suggestions on how to handle this for the best long term benefits would be > appreciated (I expect the puppy to quickly outgrow my daughter, so I want > her to understand what she can/cannot do).

Whether raising a 8 month puppy or a 4 year old daughter, you need loads of patience…IAC, I believe it’s much easier to educate your daughter towards your dog than otherwise, at this stage. That will change with time… <VBG> Avoid that they play unsuppervised. Maybe that’s where the problem starts. Just remain calm and be gentle to BOTH. > 2) Leash…I’m introducing the pup to the leash. I put it on her, and run > around the yard.  I also try to use it to move her through the house (she’s > not housebroken).  For example, to take her to/from her crate at night.  I > could cary her, but I really want her to respond to the leash.  This is > sometimes a problem and I end up carrying her anyway (she fights the > leash’s direction).  Of course, I could pull her along, but that’s probably > not really effective training either.

You just can’t expect your puppy to follow you in free will just because you placed a leash on him.You have to motivate (keyword here). Attract him with a gentle voice, food or toys. A lorry full of praise when he does what you want. > 3) Read any good books lately?  I enjoy reading/learning anyway, so the > more I can understand what I need to do to make this a grrrreat > relationship, the better.  Book/video recommendations on the best > techinques would be appreciated.

My main source of information is the internet.From each site you find you have links to tons of others. I ordered "The Koehler method of dog trainning" but I’m still waiting. I’ve just read "Your dog" by John Cree. It’s very easy to read and has lots of good trainning tips. This one is a bit expensive in the US as it’s English (I have the same problem with American books). > Thanks (again) > -Mike > PS: Ginger has a vet appointment tomorrow.  I’ll make sure she’s checked > for UTI.

What’s UTI? Alex, trying to help.

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