Consumer Homes.

Question:

>> >My grid  power usage is now down to 10 KW per month >You think a guy who can do what Gig has done is a fool?

No. I’ve changed my mind. Now he seems more like an eeevuhl malignant confuser. It takes a real attitude to ignore the h’s on every energy bill, when Gig scrutinizes them so carefully. You might say his calling a kWh a kW is like calling an apple a round thing, but it’s not. It’s like calling an apple a national holiday. This is wrong, wrong, wrong, and Gig needs to Repent before it’s Too Late. I have spoken. Nick

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >My grid  power usage is now down to 10 KW per month >You think a guy who can do what Gig has done is a fool? > No. I’ve changed my mind. Now he seems more like an eeevuhl malignant > confuser. It takes a real attitude to ignore the h’s on every energy > bill, when Gig scrutinizes them so carefully. You might say his calling > a kWh a kW is like calling an apple a round thing, but it’s not. It’s > like calling an apple a national holiday. This is wrong, wrong, wrong, > and Gig needs to Repent before it’s Too Late. > I have spoken. > Nick

I’m thinkin’ that whether he calls them apples, round things, or giraffes, that as long as he’s using less of them than before, that he’s pretty smart.  BTW, a friend called yesterday. He and another are planning earth-sheltered building projects, so I recommended they get in touch with you for advice. When I sent them the URL for your posting archive, I had to write two extra sentences explaining that they have to be careful communicating with you in that they better remember their "h"s. If those two sentences scare them off, then you might have lost a consulting fee.  :-) Wayne

Response:

I took some time to check out these wall wart phantom loads about a month ago.  Here’re a few supporting statistics from our home: Starting Out # of wall warts:  23 # of wall warts doing useful work: 12 Power Consumed:  119 Watts Energy consumed:  86 kWH per 30 day month (yes, really) Where we are now # of wall warts:  7 (one is a "convenience" cell phone charger) # of wall warts doing useful work: 6 Power Consumed:   67 Watts Energy consumed:  48 kWH per 30 day month Energy saved:  38 kWH per month, approx 450 kWH per year. Note that wall warts that are not loaded still pull power in core losses, but it really isn’t much.  Still, having a bunch of them idle *does* add up. $ saved at current SCE rates:  $63 per year.  This doesn’t work on the incremental rate increase SCE customers have to pay for in Tier 2, but I think it’s the same rate anyway. All this in exchange for my redirecting some personal energy for two hours on a Saturday afternoon….  I wonder what one could do by really *looking* for ghost loads? The doorbell xfmr:  Replaced the doorbell years ago with a kind of African pull-bell.  Sounds weird and sometimes the neighborhood kids drive us nuts with it, but it’s unique, works fine,  and doesn’t cost any electrons. Matt Zilmer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Despite all the pointless rhetoric(tm) on kW vs kWH, congratulations! > 10 kWH / month is minute fraction of what most of us operate on at > home, and seeing that you can achieve this is very encouraging to the > rest of us that are trying to conserve and generate. > Again, excellent work! >Thank you, Matt…. one of the most amazing things about power >conservation, was realizing that those lowly power transformer, >like the small box that plugs into the wall socket, and powers >my sony walkman, CD player, was using 7.2 kw per month…. >and it was only rated at 10 watts…. >I had many such transformers in the house… including the >doorbell transformer, around the house… by disconnecting >them, I saw a large decrease in my kw usage… >Gig

Response:

> Despite all the pointless rhetoric(tm) on kW vs kWH, congratulations! > 10 kWH / month is minute fraction of what most of us operate on at > home, and seeing that you can achieve this is very encouraging to the > rest of us that are trying to conserve and generate. > Following the advice set forth multiple times in this NG, we brought > our consumption down from around 980 kWH to 570 kWH in just two months > (2500 sq ft, trilevel residence).  Working to reduce this continues. > I’m thinking we can bring the 570 down by perhaps 30% via the PV > system going in late this month. > Again, excellent work!

Thank you, Matt…. one of the most amazing things about power conservation, was realizing that those lowly power transformer, like the small box that plugs into the wall socket, and powers my sony walkman, CD player, was using 7.2 kw per month…. and it was only rated at 10 watts…. I had many such transformers in the house… including the doorbell transformer, around the house… by disconnecting them, I saw a large decrease in my kw usage… Gig

Response:

Despite all the pointless rhetoric(tm) on kW vs kWH, congratulations! 10 kWH / month is minute fraction of what most of us operate on at home, and seeing that you can achieve this is very encouraging to the rest of us that are trying to conserve and generate. Following the advice set forth multiple times in this NG, we brought our consumption down from around 980 kWH to 570 kWH in just two months (2500 sq ft, trilevel residence).  Working to reduce this continues. I’m thinking we can bring the 570 down by perhaps 30% via the PV system going in late this month. Again, excellent work! Matt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->My grid  power usage is now down to 10 KW per month >Little by little, my PV system is expanding… and taking >over more of my house hold chores…. I am now using >less than 10 kw of grid power per month… mostly for >the occasional use of the Microwave oven, the water >pump,  (which will soon be off the grid),  and  some >grid power I still use for the electric lawn edger… >My water catchment system is working good too… I >now have enough water from the last rain, to last me >for two months…. I am thinking about getting a larger >water catchment tank, that would allow  me  to  save, >6 months supply of water…  this kind of  ’non-well’ >water system is economical to use on those houses >that have PV’s as their primary power source… and… >if you move… you can take it with you… >By the way… if  anyone  wants  to  see  the  new 500 >gallon, water catchment tank, its image is posted at : >        http://geocities.com/solarliving/Tank.jpg > …and I can honestly say that the 500 gallon tank is > full…. you might say, "…my tank runneth over"   > Gig > Visit my web page at : >http://geocities.com/solarliving >http://geocities.com/solarliving/OfftheGrid.html >or join the Solar Living Mailing list at :

Response:

>My grid  power usage is now down to 10 KW per month

Fool. Nick

Response:

> >My grid  power usage is now down to 10 KW per month > Fool. > Nick

Who is the fool Nick?  The guy who has personal independence or the guy that is 100% dependant on others for his energy?  I think Gig is making the right choice although it might not ever make $ sense. — ** remove the nospam.com from the e-mail address ** The Sun –   Your source of natural light and energy for over 5 BILLION years!   Try it today!!!  Free while supplies last…

Response:

>Thank you, Matt…. one of the most amazing things about power >conservation, was realizing that those lowly power transformer, >like the small box that plugs into the wall socket, and powers >my sony walkman, CD player, was using 7.2 kw per month…. >and it was only rated at 10 watts….

You really should learn to tack the dreaded `h’ on the end of your `kw’.  If nothing else, it will keep Nick Pine quiet. >I had many such transformers in the house… including the >doorbell transformer, around the house… by disconnecting >them, I saw a large decrease in my kw usage…

Heh, I never thought about the doorbell. If power were sufficiently expensive, it would be worth running multiple wiring systems in houses, and having a single, high-efficieny "power conversion point", instead of lots of plug-in-able transformers. But at 5 to 15 cents per kWh in most of the USA (no longer including California ), it is cheaper to waste electricity. — In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Wind River Systems

Response:

> >…one of the most amazing things about power conservation, >was realizing that those lowly power transformer, like the >small box that plugs into the wall socket, and powers my >sony walkman, CD player, was using 7.2 kw per month…. > That’s 7.2 kWh, Gig, as I suspect you well know by now. > Or are you really THAT stupid? > Nick

It’s even worse. And he caught you at it.  10W * 24hrs * 365 days / 12mos = 7300 Wh or 7.3kWh Mike

Response:

nice i see you running the water off your roof into the tank. how clean is the tank?  do u get alot of dirt and stuff inside it? or do u filter it befor it go’s in? if you filter it how often do u have to change it? allso what was that tank use to be used for? looks like a  large gas tank?. thanks for info

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My grid  power usage is now down to 10 KW per month > Little by little, my PV system is expanding… and taking > over more of my house hold chores…. I am now using > less than 10 kw of grid power per month… mostly for > the occasional use of the Microwave oven, the water > pump,  (which will soon be off the grid),  and  some > grid power I still use for the electric lawn edger… > My water catchment system is working good too… I > now have enough water from the last rain, to last me > for two months…. I am thinking about getting a larger > water catchment tank, that would allow  me  to  save, > 6 months supply of water…  this kind of  ’non-well’ > water system is economical to use on those houses > that have PV’s as their primary power source… and… > if you move… you can take it with you… > By the way… if  anyone  wants  to  see  the  new 500 > gallon, water catchment tank, its image is posted at : >         http://geocities.com/solarliving/Tank.jpg >  …and I can honestly say that the 500 gallon tank is >  full…. you might say, "…my tank runneth over"   >  Gig >  Visit my web page at : > http://geocities.com/solarliving > http://geocities.com/solarliving/OfftheGrid.html > or join the Solar Living Mailing list at :

Response:

>>Despite all the pointless rhetoric(tm) on kW vs kWH, congratulations! >It ain’t pointless. Gig is a role model. What would we do with an >elementary school teacher who teaches kids that 2+2 = 5, or the sun >revolves around the earth? Those are serious crimes, to me.

I don’t know about high crimes, but the subject shouldn’t be teaching. That wasn’t Gig’s offense though. If he’s a role model, how about cutting him some slack?   >Following the advice set forth multiple times in this NG, we brought >our consumption down from around 980 kWH to 570 kWH in just two months… >Congratulations

Uh, thanks! Matt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Nick

Response:

> nice i see you running the water off your roof into the tank. how clean is > the tank?  do u get alot of dirt and stuff inside it? or do u filter it > befor it go’s in? if you filter it how often do u have to change it? allso > what was that tank use to be used for? looks like a  large gas tank?. > thanks for info

The system is evolving… and I do have a fine mesh screen wire on input… also the gutters are covered, to prevent leaves and other derbis from getting into the water stream…. still… the system still collects dust, and pollen… My next step, I think, is to build a 10 gallon washer, which will take the first 10 gallons of roof water, and dump it….  so the dirt is flushed away, before it enters the tank…. then the next step would be, to put a ceramic filter in the line at some place… to give some .5 micron filtration to the water supply…. As I said, it is a long running experiment… but it does provide me with adequate water for shaving, flushing, and showering… I use bottled water for drinking, at this time… Gig

Response:

I live in the desert, Phoenix Arizona. Unfortunately, I only live in an apartment, so there is so much I can do. For example, I cannot install a swamp cooler, and I cannot install solar panels for hot water or PV. (For those of you who have the idea of putting a panel on the balcony, wouldn’t work, our apartment faces south. Here are the things I have done to save energy. Our water heater is in the closet, so any heat that it looses hits us twofold. For one, that’s more often the water must come on to reheat the water. Also, the heat is looses heats our apartment more. Sure, not much more, but every little bit counts. The water heater was set for 140F degrees, so I took it down to 120F. The dish washer stills works just as bad as it did before, so that didn’t seem to hurt. I installed that foam tubing that raps around pipe, since that is where most of the water’s heat was escaping. The water heater is fairly new, and doesn’t feel warm to the touch, so I didn’t bother wraping the whole tank. I cleaned the condenser coils on the refrigerator. It’s a fairly new unit, so it doesn’t waste too much energy. I also put a thermostat in both the freezer and refrigerator and set the temps to 5F and 40F. I also turned off the "moisture control" in the fridge. I have always used compact fluorescent lamps, so that wasn’t a change I had to make anyway. I signed up to pay $3 extra a month for renewable energy in 100 kwh blocks. I may buy more when I get a job. I haven’t received my new bill yet, so I don’t see it yet. I’ve researched a lot of cooling technology, because we live in the desert and all, and I want to save money, as well as the environment. Swamp coolers can only work if the humidity is below ~55%. Anything above that, and the cooler will simply make the air more humid, not cooler. Here in Phoenix, the humidity is usually about 6 – 10%. During the monsoon season however, near the end of summer, the humidity jumps to over 55%. I forget how high, but that’s when one would switch over to the air conditioner. My uncle has both, and I am impressed with the swamp cooler, it can drop the temperature by 40 – 50F. The other thing I am researching are geothermal heat pumps. Do a google search for geothermal heatpump. Here, I did it for you: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=geothermal+heatpump Read on. The ONLY negative, is cost. (I’m sure flamers will find more.) The "problem" with geothermal heatpumps is that either a trench or deep holes need to be dug on the property. But the benefits are almost limit-less. No noisy condenser unit, the underground temperature is always ~55F year round, heatpumps operate as a heater and air conditioner, they use ~40% less power than standard air conditioners. So, to keep this thread on topic, for heating I’m also considering solar water heating. Plumb that into a heat exchanger in the ventilation system. But that’s if budget allows, of course. And to keep the thread further on topic, I WILL eventually install a PV array grid tied, with no backup batteries. But the first thing I need to do, as with anyway, is make the home more efficient. Why? If you wanted to make a PV array that would power your whole inefficient home, it would cost hell a lot more than for a larger array than if you replaced everything with an efficient alternative, and used a smaller PV array. Disclaimer: There are negative sides to everything, for example, I can praise the compact fluorescent, but most people freak over the initial cost. But they never freak over the heat generated, and the TOTAL REAL cost of incandescent, something they never look into. Sure, geothermal heat pumps cost more than air source heat pumps, but saving will be realized in both dollars and the environment. I eventually will make a graph for the pay pack of a geothermal heat pump vs. an air source heat pump, but I’m still learning Excel, so there. ;-P –Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi all, >     Newbie here so be nice  I am planning some wind and PV projects to > lower my energy costs for the future and have started by replacing all the > light bulbs with CF’s that consume 15 watts apiece. I will see what that > does for starters. In the year 2000, my KWH (boy I hope I spelled that > right), ranged from 645 in April to 2081 in July with the year total being > 14,227 KWH. My main first question is, is an air conditioner pretty much > out of the question without spending 20 or 30 thousand dollars for a > system? Does anybody have any experience with evaporative coolers in > Florida? Our humidity is kinda high and I don’t know how these would work > so I am open to advice. Also, what is the best battery configuration as > far as cell size and volt? 6 volt series and or series/parallel for 12 > volts? > Thanks in advance, > schemer > Despite all the pointless rhetoric(tm) on kW vs kWH, congratulations! > 10 kWH / month is minute fraction of what most of us operate on at > home, and seeing that you can achieve this is very encouraging to the > rest of us that are trying to conserve and generate. > Following the advice set forth multiple times in this NG, we brought > our consumption down from around 980 kWH to 570 kWH in just two months > (2500 sq ft, trilevel residence).  Working to reduce this continues. > I’m thinking we can bring the 570 down by perhaps 30% via the PV > system going in late this month. > Again, excellent work! > Matt > >My grid  power usage is now down to 10 KW per month > >Little by little, my PV system is expanding… and taking > >over more of my house hold chores…. I am now using > >less than 10 kw of grid power per month… mostly for > >the occasional use of the Microwave oven, the water > >pump,  (which will soon be off the grid),  and  some > >grid power I still use for the electric lawn edger… > >My water catchment system is working good too… I > >now have enough water from the last rain, to last me > >for two months…. I am thinking about getting a larger > >water catchment tank, that would allow  me  to  save, > >6 months supply of water…  this kind of  ’non-well’ > >water system is economical to use on those houses > >that have PV’s as their primary power source… and… > >if you move… you can take it with you… > >By the way… if  anyone  wants  to  see  the  new 500 > >gallon, water catchment tank, its image is posted at : > >        http://geocities.com/solarliving/Tank.jpg > > …and I can honestly say that the 500 gallon tank is > > full…. you might say, "…my tank runneth over"   > > Gig > > Visit my web page at : > >http://geocities.com/solarliving > >http://geocities.com/solarliving/OfftheGrid.html > >or join the Solar Living Mailing list at : > — > Get $5.00 FREE just for joining. Get PayPal NOW! > https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=schemer%40cyou.com > Do you have a business? Do you accept electronic checks? > Do you want to? Download a FREE 15 day Trial version of > CheckClone Pro today and start accepting checks online. > http://www.soapcellar.com/checkclone_pro/checkcloneindex.html

– The content of this message contains my ideas, experiences, and general information I’ve heard or read. I will usually specify whether the information was heard, read, my idea, or from experience. It is up to you to be the judge of how valid the content of my messages are.

Response:

>My grid  power usage is now down to 10 KW per month > Fool. > Nick

You think a guy who can do what Gig has done is a fool? Save the fool talk for those who won’t make an effort, whether they think to put in their "h"s or not. Good work Gig! Wayne

Response:

You poor mad fool. By saying KW instead of kWh you have upset the Mad High Priest again. We my never hear the end of this and all be sent to hell forever. Good on ya. If more people were willing to "DO" rather than "TALK" the energy problem would disappear. Enjoy George In article – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > My grid  power usage is now down to 10 KW per month > Little by little, my PV system is expanding… and taking > over more of my house hold chores…. I am now using > less than 10 kw of grid power per month… mostly for > the occasional use of the Microwave oven, the water > pump,  (which will soon be off the grid),  and  some > grid power I still use for the electric lawn edger… > My water catchment system is working good too… I > now have enough water from the last rain, to last me > for two months…. I am thinking about getting a larger > water catchment tank, that would allow  me  to  save, > 6 months supply of water…  this kind of  ’non-well’ > water system is economical to use on those houses > that have PV’s as their primary power source… and… > if you move… you can take it with you… > By the way… if  anyone  wants  to  see  the  new 500 > gallon, water catchment tank, its image is posted at : >         http://geocities.com/solarliving/Tank.jpg >  …and I can honestly say that the 500 gallon tank is >  full…. you might say, "…my tank runneth over"   >  Gig >  Visit my web page at : > http://geocities.com/solarliving > http://geocities.com/solarliving/OfftheGrid.html > or join the Solar Living Mailing list at :

Response:

>> >My grid  power usage is now down to 10 KW per month >You think a guy who can do what Gig has done is a fool?

No. I’ve changed my mind. Now he seems more like an eeevuhl malignant confuser. It takes a real attitude to ignore the h’s on every energy bill, when Gig scrutinizes them so carefully. You might say his calling a kWh a kW is like calling an apple a round thing, but it’s not. It’s like calling an apple a national holiday. This is wrong, wrong, wrong, and Gig needs to Repent before it’s Too Late. I have spoken. Nick

Response:

>…one of the most amazing things about power conservation, >was realizing that those lowly power transformer, like the >small box that plugs into the wall socket, and powers my >sony walkman, CD player, was using 7.2 kw per month….

That’s 7.2 kWh, Gig, as I suspect you well know by now. Or are you really THAT stupid? Nick

Response:

>Despite all the pointless rhetoric(tm) on kW vs kWH, congratulations!

It ain’t pointless. Gig is a role model. What would we do with an elementary school teacher who teaches kids that 2+2 = 5, or the sun revolves around the earth? Those are serious crimes, to me. >Following the advice set forth multiple times in this NG, we brought >our consumption down from around 980 kWH to 570 kWH in just two months…

Congratulations Nick

Response:

Hi all,     Newbie here so be nice  I am planning some wind and PV projects to lower my energy costs for the future and have started by replacing all the light bulbs with CF’s that consume 15 watts apiece. I will see what that does for starters. In the year 2000, my KWH (boy I hope I spelled that right), ranged from 645 in April to 2081 in July with the year total being 14,227 KWH. My main first question is, is an air conditioner pretty much out of the question without spending 20 or 30 thousand dollars for a system? Does anybody have any experience with evaporative coolers in Florida? Our humidity is kinda high and I don’t know how these would work so I am open to advice. Also, what is the best battery configuration as far as cell size and volt? 6 volt series and or series/parallel for 12 volts? Thanks in advance, schemer – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Despite all the pointless rhetoric(tm) on kW vs kWH, congratulations! > 10 kWH / month is minute fraction of what most of us operate on at > home, and seeing that you can achieve this is very encouraging to the > rest of us that are trying to conserve and generate. > Following the advice set forth multiple times in this NG, we brought > our consumption down from around 980 kWH to 570 kWH in just two months > (2500 sq ft, trilevel residence).  Working to reduce this continues. > I’m thinking we can bring the 570 down by perhaps 30% via the PV > system going in late this month. > Again, excellent work! > Matt >My grid  power usage is now down to 10 KW per month >Little by little, my PV system is expanding… and taking >over more of my house hold chores…. I am now using >less than 10 kw of grid power per month… mostly for >the occasional use of the Microwave oven, the water >pump,  (which will soon be off the grid),  and  some >grid power I still use for the electric lawn edger… >My water catchment system is working good too… I >now have enough water from the last rain, to last me >for two months…. I am thinking about getting a larger >water catchment tank, that would allow  me  to  save, >6 months supply of water…  this kind of  ’non-well’ >water system is economical to use on those houses >that have PV’s as their primary power source… and… >if you move… you can take it with you… >By the way… if  anyone  wants  to  see  the  new 500 >gallon, water catchment tank, its image is posted at : >        http://geocities.com/solarliving/Tank.jpg > …and I can honestly say that the 500 gallon tank is > full…. you might say, "…my tank runneth over"   > Gig > Visit my web page at : >http://geocities.com/solarliving >http://geocities.com/solarliving/OfftheGrid.html >or join the Solar Living Mailing list at :

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Response:

I’m thinking of a device for my computer. The surge protector has a lot of wall warts, one for the modem, one for the printer, and one for the network hub. My girlfriend’s computer has one for the printer, Zip drive, and speakers. Sure we could turn off the power strips/surge protectors. But it’s inconvenient. Now before I get flames over not wanting the save the world over convenience, I’ve got a plan, no if I can stick to it. The 12 volt from the computer’s power supply could charge a relay that powers the power strip. Problem is, if you shut down the computer, how do you get that relay back on so that the strip gets power? Since these are both are ATX cases, they have momentary switches. If I wired these to a circuit that connects the the switch to both the motherboard, and hooked a 9 volt battery to "jump" the main power relay, it’ll start. This means that if you used Window’s shutdown feature, which can take minutes, you don’t have to sit there and wait to turn off the strip, it’ll turn off automatically. That is, of course, if Windows decides not to shut down. –Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I took some time to check out these wall wart phantom loads about a > month ago.  Here’re a few supporting statistics from our home: > Starting Out > # of wall warts:  23 > # of wall warts doing useful work: 12 > Power Consumed:  119 Watts > Energy consumed:  86 kWH per 30 day month (yes, really) > Where we are now > # of wall warts:  7 (one is a "convenience" cell phone charger) > # of wall warts doing useful work: 6 > Power Consumed:   67 Watts > Energy consumed:  48 kWH per 30 day month > Energy saved:  38 kWH per month, approx 450 kWH per year. > Note that wall warts that are not loaded still pull power in core > losses, but it really isn’t much.  Still, having a bunch of them idle > *does* add up. > $ saved at current SCE rates:  $63 per year.  This doesn’t work on the > incremental rate increase SCE customers have to pay for in Tier 2, but > I think it’s the same rate anyway. > All this in exchange for my redirecting some personal energy for two > hours on a Saturday afternoon….  I wonder what one could do by > really *looking* for ghost loads? > The doorbell xfmr:  Replaced the doorbell years ago with a kind of > African pull-bell.  Sounds weird and sometimes the neighborhood kids > drive us nuts with it, but it’s unique, works fine,  and doesn’t cost > any electrons. > Matt Zilmer >> Despite all the pointless rhetoric(tm) on kW vs kWH, congratulations! >> 10 kWH / month is minute fraction of what most of us operate on at >> home, and seeing that you can achieve this is very encouraging to the >> rest of us that are trying to conserve and generate. >> Again, excellent work! >Thank you, Matt…. one of the most amazing things about power >conservation, was realizing that those lowly power transformer, >like the small box that plugs into the wall socket, and powers >my sony walkman, CD player, was using 7.2 kw per month…. >and it was only rated at 10 watts…. >I had many such transformers in the house… including the >doorbell transformer, around the house… by disconnecting >them, I saw a large decrease in my kw usage… >Gig

– The content of this message contains my ideas, experiences, and general information I’ve heard or read. I will usually specify whether the information was heard, read, my idea, or from experience. It is up to you to be the judge of how valid the content of my messages are.

Response:

LOL.. That’s too much math. If I weren’t afraid of math, (people tell me that I am, I just say I SUCK at it) I’d have a big ass degree and would have my own home. Something I intended to mention in my message is that I don’t pay for air-conditioning in this apartment. There is a chiller outside the building that chills water, the water is then pumped through the bulding. Each apartment has a heat exchanger to transfer this cooled water. I only have to pay for the blower fan. I don’t care for the setup too much. The only control for the AC is "OFF – HIGH – MED – LOW". This means when it needs to be on high in the evening, but in the middle of the night, it’s too cold. I’d enjoy having a thermostat. Our apartment says cooler than outside, but at times it’s too warm for us, we’d like it cooler. We have a total of 3 windows. A small kitchen window, a sliding glass door, and a "standard" size window in the bedroom. All doors and windows face north. Our south wall is a common wall with neighbors that have the same floor plan apartment as ours, but their face south. It is true that swamp coolers work at anything below 100%, but the more humid it is, the less effective it is. (The less it drops the temperature.) So assuming it were 100F, at 80% humidity, you will only get a small drop in temp, as opposed to 110F 10% humidity. –Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I live in the desert, Phoenix Arizona. Unfortunately, I only live in an >apartment, so there is so much I can do. For example, I cannot install >a swamp cooler… putting a panel on the balcony, wouldn’t work, our >apartment faces south… > You might lay foamboard on a north balcony and cover it with plastic film > to make an 8′x12′ shade pool for evaporation. Maybe flood it only at night, > and use a tank or fountain or fan-coil unit (eg an auto radiator with fan) > inside to cool the house. > Swamp coolers always cool if the RH is less than 100%, with the wet bulb > temp as a lower limit, close to the shade pool temp. But moving outdoor > air into a house is less efficient than just cooling the air that is in > the house, and it introduces extra humidity which makes you feel warmer, > compared to dry air at same temperature. >Here in Phoenix, the humidity is usually about 6 – 10%. > NREL’s 30-year average for June in Phoenix shows an average 88.2 F, > with an average daily low and high of 72.9 and 103.5 and an average > humidity ratio w = 0.0056 pounds of water per pound of dry air, so the > partial water vapor pressure Pa = 29.921/(1+0.62198/w) = 0.267 "Hg. > Pw = exp(17.863-9621/(460+72.9)) = 0.826 "Hg at 72.9 F and 100% RH, > and 1.367 and 2.202 "Hg at 88.2 and 103.5, which makes RH = 100Pa/Pw > = 32, 20, and 12% at those temps, assuming the amount of water in > outdoor air stays constant over 24 hours, which it tends to do. >During the monsoon season… switch over to the air conditioner. >My uncle has both, and I am impressed with the swamp cooler, >it can drop the temperature by 40 – 50F. > You might use both, preferring evaporation. At night, the wet bulb > temp Tw and partial pressure Pw near the pond surface would follow > Bowen’s 1936 equation, 100(Pw-Pa)/(Tw-Ta) = -1, so 100Pw = 99.6-Tw, > and Tw = 55.4 F, after a few iterations, ie you could keep your > apartment 55.4 F all day and night on an average June day, with > a perfect indoor heat exchanger and enough insulation and water. > To supply 5K Btu/h of cooling for 12 hours (60K Btu/day) of cooling, > like a window AC, the pool needs to lose, say, 10K Btu/h over 6h on > an average night, ie 10K/(8′x12′) = 104 Btu/h-ft^2. ASHRAE says pools > lose about 100(Pw-Pa) Btu/h-ft^2, which makes Pw = Pa+1.04 = 1.309, so > Tw = 9621/(17.863-ln(1.309))-460 = 86.8 F, with 20% humidity indoors. > You could still turn on an indoor fountain to make the air cooler. > The pond would lose more heat by night sky radation. At the dew point, > Tdp = 9621/(17.863-ln(0.267))-460 = 41.5 F or 5.3 C, and the ambient > temp Ta = 72.9 F or 295.8 K. Duffie and Beckman have a equation for sky > temp Ts = Ta(0.711+0.0056Tdp+0.000073Tdp^2+0.013cos(15t))^0.25 = 275.4 K > or 35.8 F, with t = 3 hours since midnight, so a square foot of 86.8 F > pool would lose an additional 0.1714×10^-8((460+86.8)^4-(460+35.8)^4) > = 49.7 Btu/h-ft^2 by radiation, making it equivalent to a 7.5K Btu/h AC. > For lower indoor temps or more cooling capacity, you might flow water > down over the south balcony wall at night, circulating it back with a > sump pump in a gutter, and even blow air over the wall with a fan… > Why don’t you try something like this and let us know how it works? > I don’t worry much about AC or water in PA, having pumped 2,400 gallons > per day over 5,000 ft^2 of greenhouses and 2 acres of vegetables over > the last drought summer. I just finished a bamboo octet truss to support > another 120 tomato plants… > Nick > It’s a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people > become involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level, > as well as intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after > solution will appear. >                                         Tom Smith, 1980

– The content of this message contains my ideas, experiences, and general information I’ve heard or read. I will usually specify whether the information was heard, read, my idea, or from experience. It is up to you to be the judge of how valid the content of my messages are.

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> nice i see you running the water off your roof into the tank. how clean is > the tank?  do u get alot of dirt and stuff inside it? or do u filter it > befor it go’s in? if you filter it how often do u have to change it? allso > what was that tank use to be used for? looks like a  large gas tank?.

Oh I forgot… back in the late 70’s, it was a butane tank…. but I have used it since that time, for a solar heated hot water tank… It is a bit rusty inside… but the rust is slowly washing out…. Gig

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >My grid  power usage is now down to 10 KW per month >You think a guy who can do what Gig has done is a fool? > No. I’ve changed my mind. Now he seems more like an eeevuhl malignant > confuser. It takes a real attitude to ignore the h’s on every energy > bill, when Gig scrutinizes them so carefully. You might say his calling > a kWh a kW is like calling an apple a round thing, but it’s not. It’s > like calling an apple a national holiday. This is wrong, wrong, wrong, > and Gig needs to Repent before it’s Too Late. > I have spoken. > Nick

I’m thinkin’ that whether he calls them apples, round things, or giraffes, that as long as he’s using less of them than before, that he’s pretty smart.  BTW, a friend called yesterday. He and another are planning earth-sheltered building projects, so I recommended they get in touch with you for advice. When I sent them the URL for your posting archive, I had to write two extra sentences explaining that they have to be careful communicating with you in that they better remember their "h"s. If those two sentences scare them off, then you might have lost a consulting fee.  :-) Wayne

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> You poor mad fool. By saying KW instead of kWh you have > upset the Mad High Priest again. We my never hear the end of > this and all be sent to hell forever. > Good on ya. If more people were willing to "DO" rather than "TALK" the > energy problem would disappear.

George; Yes… I guess I have upset the  ’Wizard of Id’  again…. oh when will I ever stop….   Gig

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My grid  power usage is now down to 10 KW per month Little by little, my PV system is expanding… and taking over more of my house hold chores…. I am now using less than 10 kw of grid power per month… mostly for the occasional use of the Microwave oven, the water pump,  (which will soon be off the grid),  and  some grid power I still use for the electric lawn edger… My water catchment system is working good too… I now have enough water from the last rain, to last me for two months…. I am thinking about getting a larger water catchment tank, that would allow  me  to  save, 6 months supply of water…  this kind of  ’non-well’ water system is economical to use on those houses that have PV’s as their primary power source… and… if you move… you can take it with you… By the way… if  anyone  wants  to  see  the  new 500 gallon, water catchment tank, its image is posted at :         http://geocities.com/solarliving/Tank.jpg  …and I can honestly say that the 500 gallon tank is  full…. you might say, "…my tank runneth over"    Gig  Visit my web page at : http://geocities.com/solarliving http://geocities.com/solarliving/OfftheGrid.html or join the Solar Living Mailing list at :

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>I live in the desert, Phoenix Arizona. Unfortunately, I only live in an >apartment, so there is so much I can do. For example, I cannot install >a swamp cooler… putting a panel on the balcony, wouldn’t work, our >apartment faces south…

You might lay foamboard on a north balcony and cover it with plastic film to make an 8′x12′ shade pool for evaporation. Maybe flood it only at night, and use a tank or fountain or fan-coil unit (eg an auto radiator with fan) inside to cool the house. Swamp coolers always cool if the RH is less than 100%, with the wet bulb temp as a lower limit, close to the shade pool temp. But moving outdoor air into a house is less efficient than just cooling the air that is in the house, and it introduces extra humidity which makes you feel warmer, compared to dry air at same temperature. >Here in Phoenix, the humidity is usually about 6 – 10%.

NREL’s 30-year average for June in Phoenix shows an average 88.2 F, with an average daily low and high of 72.9 and 103.5 and an average humidity ratio w = 0.0056 pounds of water per pound of dry air, so the partial water vapor pressure Pa = 29.921/(1+0.62198/w) = 0.267 "Hg. Pw = exp(17.863-9621/(460+72.9)) = 0.826 "Hg at 72.9 F and 100% RH, and 1.367 and 2.202 "Hg at 88.2 and 103.5, which makes RH = 100Pa/Pw = 32, 20, and 12% at those temps, assuming the amount of water in outdoor air stays constant over 24 hours, which it tends to do. >During the monsoon season… switch over to the air conditioner. >My uncle has both, and I am impressed with the swamp cooler, >it can drop the temperature by 40 – 50F.

You might use both, preferring evaporation. At night, the wet bulb temp Tw and partial pressure Pw near the pond surface would follow Bowen’s 1936 equation, 100(Pw-Pa)/(Tw-Ta) = -1, so 100Pw = 99.6-Tw, and Tw = 55.4 F, after a few iterations, ie you could keep your apartment 55.4 F all day and night on an average June day, with a perfect indoor heat exchanger and enough insulation and water. To supply 5K Btu/h of cooling for 12 hours (60K Btu/day) of cooling, like a window AC, the pool needs to lose, say, 10K Btu/h over 6h on an average night, ie 10K/(8′x12′) = 104 Btu/h-ft^2. ASHRAE says pools lose about 100(Pw-Pa) Btu/h-ft^2, which makes Pw = Pa+1.04 = 1.309, so Tw = 9621/(17.863-ln(1.309))-460 = 86.8 F, with 20% humidity indoors. You could still turn on an indoor fountain to make the air cooler. The pond would lose more heat by night sky radation. At the dew point, Tdp = 9621/(17.863-ln(0.267))-460 = 41.5 F or 5.3 C, and the ambient temp Ta = 72.9 F or 295.8 K. Duffie and Beckman have a equation for sky temp Ts = Ta(0.711+0.0056Tdp+0.000073Tdp^2+0.013cos(15t))^0.25 = 275.4 K or 35.8 F, with t = 3 hours since midnight, so a square foot of 86.8 F pool would lose an additional 0.1714×10^-8((460+86.8)^4-(460+35.8)^4) = 49.7 Btu/h-ft^2 by radiation, making it equivalent to a 7.5K Btu/h AC. For lower indoor temps or more cooling capacity, you might flow water down over the south balcony wall at night, circulating it back with a sump pump in a gutter, and even blow air over the wall with a fan… Why don’t you try something like this and let us know how it works? I don’t worry much about AC or water in PA, having pumped 2,400 gallons per day over 5,000 ft^2 of greenhouses and 2 acres of vegetables over the last drought summer. I just finished a bamboo octet truss to support another 120 tomato plants… Nick It’s a snap to save energy in this country. As soon as more people become involved in the basic math of heat transfer and get a gut-level, as well as intellectual, grasp on how a house works, solution after solution will appear.                                         Tom Smith, 1980

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> You think a guy who can do what Gig has done is a fool? > Save the fool talk for those who won’t make an effort, whether > they think to put in their "h"s or not. > Good work Gig!

Thanks… Gig

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