Consumer Homes.

Question:

>> We are looking at putting berber carpet in our house but would > like to hear others opinion. >Two posts on this thread have put forth what I consider to be prime >considerations for Berber carpets: installation and stain resistance. >Installation of looped carpets is more difficult, and requires a >conscientious installer. I *demand* adherence to the CRI’s Installation >Standards 104 and 105 on *my* carpet.

Huh !  Can you clarify what these standards mean…? I will be having some berber installed next week in my  basement and would like to know what questions re: installation I should be asking. Thanx in advance.. Roger

Response:

> >I *demand* adherence to the CRI’s Installation >Standards 104 and 105 on *my* carpet. > Huh !  Can you clarify what these standards mean…?

Part of the Commercial Carpet installation Standard can be found at: http://www.carpet-rug.com/install.html Here is what I *insist* on, the "meat" of the matter: Power stretcher HAS to be used, and the carpet stretched, per manufacturer recommendations *both* in width and length. For *tufted* goods, this is 1–1.5%. Berbers should be cut using "row cut and trace method"; seams should be "buttered", or sealed with the appropriate seam sealer. If not, face yarns can unravel. In simple speak: *glue* the cut edges with a bead of adhesive before seaming with the hot glue tape. The use of a "mini" or a "crab stretcher" is NOT usually enough stretch to the carpet; ask the installer. IMO, it is **NEVER** enough; I am real big on power stretchers. It can be used in tight situations, and is most helpful, but is no substitute. Ask if your carpet retailer *knows* of 104 and 105. Standard 104 is for commercial carpet; 105 is for residential. A blank stare or look is suspect… The *single* most common complaint over carpet is not the product, or its performance, or cleaning. The single largest complaint is *installation*. The single largest reported defect by Senior Level Carpet Inspectors is *installation*. I see carpet *every* day which is installed poorly. Properly installed carpet will be power stretched tight, making it wear better, protect it from foot traffic, protect it from sliding furniture on it. Shortcuts abound, mostly in simple knee kicking for "installing", and take this to heart: there is **NOT** a man or woman on this planet who can adequately stretch a carpet in by a knee kicker. That is a *fact*. Or not "buttering" edges after cutting the carpet; the yarns are now exposed along the cut, with possibly no adhesive holding them. I have sometimes thought that it would be *easy* to have an incredibly successful business just by restretching carpet. I mean it; it is that *bad*. My carpet is now a decade old, and tight as a drum… If the claim is made you don’t need to power stretch, it is a *lie*. It is mandatory under the CRI Standards, and *every* mill demands it. Personally, power stretchers make it *easier* to install carpet, but they are also $600–800, heavy to lug around. I really appreciate a good installer, and they can do such wonderful work, but there are many installers today who are a joke. I can do as well as most, and I am no installer. Mark

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Many berbers out there today are olefin – If you’re not taking the proper steps to clean an olefin it will be a nightmare.  An olefin with a pattern in it is especially fun – they have no resiliency and the pattern tends to walk-out within about the 1st year. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The berber we have has a textured pattern in it…I will never have patterned >berber carpet again.  It is very hard to shampoo because the wand on the >cleaning machine, or in the case of an upright the part that spits and then >sucks the solution back up, cannot get a good lock/suction  on the damn carpet >because of the pattern.  This is something I never considered even tho’ we >couldnt keep the light carpet as clean as I like…I just figured it was >because it was light.  I am sure that the professional cleaners could do >better, but my curly headed French husband has a tendency to be a tightwad. I >despise not being able to clean the carpet as good as I think I should be able >to, and to even shampoo it like it is is a very difficult job as I keep trying >to get it to get and keep the suction I know it takes to clean its best. >Laurie >Laurie Broussard

Response:

[omitted] >Mark >IICRC Certified Master Cleaning Technician >IICRC Certified Master Restoration Technician

Now *THAT* is the most informative post of the week, easily.   Thanks for all the details, Mark.

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> > We are looking at putting berber carpet in our house but would > like to hear others opinion. > I have to admit I used to be very critical of olefin, and think it to be a > poor performer. I no longer feel that way, although olefin is not my choice > for carpet fiber. It is, in some applications, superlative, and like all > fibers, it has its strengths and weaknesses. Since berbers are often light, > neutral colors, the homeowner had better be aware that olefin requires > attention and maintenance to keep it looking good–as do *all* carpets. If > not, well, it is your money…

I wasn’t going to jump in on this, but this last paragraph is very key. We had light Berber carpeting in the house we just sold.  We also had two cats. While we didn’t have the scratching post problem with our cats (they are both indoor, declawed cats), we did have problems with them staining it.  As cats tend to do, they threw up a lot, and the stains were very hard to get out.  We also had very bad problems with heavy traffic areas. We had the carpet cleaned several times, in several various ways (with Chem-Dry seeming to work the best), but often the carpet would look dirty again very quick.  It seemed to me that the dirt stayed on the surface where it was seen, rather than falling below where it may or may not get vacuumed out. Like Mark says, all carpeting needs care, but since Berber’s tend to be light, keep in mind that they will show dirt and stains much more readily than darker carpets, and I suspect regular carpeting where the dirt falls into the carpet instead of sitting on top. Bottom line, in our new house there will be no berber, or light, carpeting.

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We have a medium berber, about the color of dirt  We got this color because the berber we had before was light, and as stated by others, a nightmare to keep clean.  We also have 2 indoor cats and 1 indoor dog. The berber we have has a textured pattern in it…I will never have patterned berber carpet again.  It is very hard to shampoo because the wand on the cleaning machine, or in the case of an upright the part that spits and then sucks the solution back up, cannot get a good lock/suction  on the damn carpet because of the pattern.  This is something I never considered even tho’ we couldnt keep the light carpet as clean as I like…I just figured it was because it was light.  I am sure that the professional cleaners could do better, but my curly headed French husband has a tendency to be a tightwad.  I despise not being able to clean the carpet as good as I think I should be able to, and to even shampoo it like it is is a very difficult job as I keep trying to get it to get and keep the suction I know it takes to clean its best. Laurie Laurie Broussard

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We are looking at putting berber carpet in our house but would like to hear others opinion.

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We had berber installed two weeks ago.  We have four children, 4 yo triplet boys and a 2-1/2 yo daughter.  Within the first weekend, my daughter put the following stains on the new rug:  red, yellow, and green paint, coca-cola, Spaghetti-O’s and chocolate milk.    Part of the berber is in our dining room, BTW. Everything came up instantly — no problems.  I blotted the spill with paper towels, used Resolve carpet spray and blotted that up after a few minutes. This carpet is great!  I don’t think that my daughter will be able to destroy it! HappyLady – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > We are looking at putting berber carpet in our house but would > like to hear others opinion.

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The carpet’s great but avoid it if you have indoor cats. Make sure you get a good experienced installer.  Seams can be invisible but it takes an experienced installer to do it right. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->We had berber installed two weeks ago.  We have four children, 4 yo >triplet boys and a 2-1/2 yo daughter.  Within the first weekend, my >daughter put the following stains on the new rug:  red, yellow, and >green paint, coca-cola, Spaghetti-O’s and chocolate milk.    Part of the >berber is in our dining room, BTW. >Everything came up instantly — no problems.  I blotted the spill with >paper towels, used Resolve carpet spray and blotted that up after a few >minutes. >This carpet is great!  I don’t think that my daughter will be able to >destroy it! >HappyLady > We are looking at putting berber carpet in our house but would > like to hear others opinion.

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>The carpet’s great but avoid it if you have indoor cats. >Make sure you get a good experienced installer.  Seams can be >invisible but it takes an experienced installer to do it right.

Why would you avoid it if you have cats? We have 2 indoor cats and berber carpeting in our family room. I love the carpeting and the cats do too. Just wondering. Chris

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Because berber pile forms a loop and if cats decided to claw it,  it will snag.  Regular pile can’t be snagged since it’s just cut off. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The carpet’s great but avoid it if you have indoor cats. >Make sure you get a good experienced installer.  Seams can be >invisible but it takes an experienced installer to do it right. >Why would you avoid it if you have cats? We have 2 indoor cats and berber >carpeting in our family room. I love the carpeting and the cats do too. Just >wondering. >Chris

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In my experience, there’s no "if" — cats LOVE berber carpet. Makes the whole house a giant scratching post. ~~~~~~ Jeff G ~~~~~~ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Because berber pile forms a loop and if cats decided to claw it,  it > will snag.  Regular pile can’t be snagged since it’s just cut off. >>The carpet’s great but avoid it if you have indoor cats. >>Make sure you get a good experienced installer.  Seams can be >>invisible but it takes an experienced installer to do it right. >Why would you avoid it if you have cats? We have 2 indoor cats and berber >carpeting in our family room. I love the carpeting and the cats do too. Just >wondering. >Chris

Response:

> We are looking at putting berber carpet in our house but would > like to hear others opinion.

Two posts on this thread have put forth what I consider to be prime considerations for Berber carpets: installation and stain resistance. Installation of looped carpets is more difficult, and requires a conscientious installer. I *demand* adherence to the CRI’s Installation Standards 104 and 105 on *my* carpet. Also, as has been pointed, closed loop carpets are one long loop; pull on a berber loop, and you will pull out *rows* of the carpet…they are interconnected. *Cut* all carpet snags with a *scissors*. Not a *yank*. As for stain resistance…most berbers are olefin, or its real name, polypropylene. Olefin is *solution dyed* versus topically dyed as are many nylon carpets. Which means that for olefin, polyester, and solution dyed *nylon*, the color is added before the fiber is extruded through the spinerette (think showerhead with molten plastic forming filaments/yarns). Because the color is "internal" to the filaments, *any* solution dyed carpet is more resistant to sun fading, chemical action (bleaches, plant fertilizers/herbicides, food and beverage dyes, etc), and plain everyday spills. The color is *inside*, not on the surface. Consider a radish and a carrot. Surface dyed carpets are like a radish; cut it in half, it is red on the outside while white in the center. OTOH, a carrot is *solid* orange, clear through; "solution dyed". Okay? Because regular nylon is *dyed* on its surface, it can be stained by the same *dyes* which are used to color it. The dyes used to color regular nylon are acid based dyes which also happen to be the same *type* of dye contained in foods and beverages. Which is why Kool Aid dyes some carpets; it is a *powerful* acid dye (dyes strike through electrical attraction). "Stain resistant" nylons contain an "acid dye resistor" which is basically a clear dye sprayed over the carpet; this resistor fills in open dye sites after dyeing, to *resist* penetration from food and beverage spills, or any acid dye. It works *superbly*, but is not perfect. Since solution dyed carpets have NO acid dyes, they resist the kids’ Kool Aid, juice drinks, etc. It is *extremely* difficult to *dye* olefin; which is *why* it is colored through extrusion. (I cannot guarantee dye jobs on olefin carpet; the physical properties of olefin make striking dye to its surface basically impossible.) Also, SR ("stain resistant") carpets, and olefins and polyesters *should*, have a "fluorochemical" which *really* provides the bulk of resistance to spotting and stains. These chemicals are known to us as DuPont’s Teflon and 3M’s Scotchgard. They *lower* surface tension so that spills are more attracted to themselves, rather than the fiber, allowing you *time* to blot up. Fluorochemicals protect in 3 ways: 1. Resist water based spills and spots; 2. Resist oil based spills and spots; 3. Make *dry* soil (79% of all soil in carpet is removeable with a **vacuum**) far easier to remove with a vacuum. Now, all synthetic carpets are based on petroleum products; they are thermoplastics basically. However, olefin (most berbers) is **extremely** olephilic, which means it *loves* oil. So…human and animal oil, vaporized cooking oils, airborne pollutants, and the *worst*, tracked in oil from asphalt parking lots, surfaces, etc., are **major** problems with olefin. Any direct petroleum based oil is *killer* staining on olefin. You may *think* olefin is "heaven sent" per spills/spots/staining until Hubby walks in with motor oil on his shoes…or tar…or grease…or a build-up of oils, and I got news for you, oil based soils are about 10% of *every* carpet’s soiling. Some *much* more… Like *any* solution dyed carpet, olefin resists many household spills, and people *love* it because of this…but it is easily, and can be **permanently** soiled by oils. Older oils in olefin, not cleaned, will oxidize, often turning gray to yellow, and this can NOT be corrected. All carpets need to be regularly cleaned, but olefin absolutely requires regular cleaning to remove these oils before they oxidize. Olefin mats easier (crushes easily), and can be *burned* just by sliding heavy furniture across it. I have seen a stuck wheel from a suitcase burn olefin. Olefin is commonly "indoor-outdoor" carpet, and you will see it by swimming pools; bleach will not affect (**100%** olefin ONLY, please!) olefin per color removal (nor polyester, or *solution dyed* nylon; I don’t suggest "testing" the use of bleach, however-*don’t* use it, as there are other problems). Olefin can also be manufactured by carpet mills; they have to *buy* nylon from one of the fiber producers: DuPont, Monsanto, Allied, etc. Which means that it is cheaper to produce for the mill, and cheaper to sell by the retailer. It is often seen in commercial applications, although today, more and more solution dyed nylon is going in–IMO, there is nothing *better* than a solution dyed nylon. I live in a six story condo, and I just got done cleaning our halls, which are 100% olefin. They look quite good, and actually from the owners’ comments, excellent, but we did several things: 1. We vacuum weekly, and *thoroughly*; 2. The carpet is maintained, not just cleaned once a year; 3. SInce our old olefin stained easily and completely, we replaced our black-topped parking with pavers; no oil in the lot, *much* less problems. ‘Course, we also had to shell out a 100 grand to do it… 4. Previously, our halls "yellowed" out from oils, and too seldom of cleaning; today at three years old, twice yearly deep cleaning, four times a year maintenance cleaning, application of Teflon/Scotchgard, six hours of weekly vacuuming, and pile lifting two times per year, the halls look *great*. Like *new*, but this is with an *investment* in maintenance; you wait two years to clean heavily used olefin, and you can forget outstanding durability…Now this is in a building with six residences per floor, but the *principles* apply to a single home, on a reduced scale. I am not suggesting 6 hrs weekly vacuuming, but a 15 minute vacuum job on a home per week is basically *worthless*. Consider that the lifespan was thought to be five years, tops, with significant soiling by this year; personally, this carpet should last us 10 years… SInce the *only* protection you have to prevent oil staining on olefin is the fluorochemical, a prudent homeowner will have Teflon or Scotchgard applied after cleaning. The mills recommend this on all carpets, as these treatments wear off under use; think wax on a car. Tonight, I am hired to help clean 6000 sq ft of carpet at the local airport as a consultant. Their olefin is an excellent carpet, 8 years old, cleaned often, but *never* protected, and has developed dark areas around high traffic lanes…security gates, ticket counters, rental car counters, etc. The airport management is blaming the cleaner, a local firm I *know* does quality work; this cleaner works hard, is honest, and responsible. The management *thinks* it is the cleaner’s fault…if it were a poor company, I would agree, but it isn’t. I have already told them it is basically oxidized oils, which I am sure I can lighten, but will never remove. Seven years ago, seven years *before* this cleaner ever started cleaning this carpet (they have only done this job for the last 8 months), the airport should have been applying Teflon to maintain traffic areas after the first year. They didn’t. It is a *lot* cheaper than new carpet… Closed loop carpets (which is what we have mutated to "berbers") have their advantages, and are mostly 100% olefin; some are blends of nylon/olefin, even nylon/wool, or 100% wool. Olefin is *easy* to clean in the sense that I can use very aggressive cleaners on it; the high pH of powerful detergents which would strip out the acid dye resistor on SR carpet doesn’t apply to olefin–there is NO acid dye resistor, no acid dye. I can’t use a pH of above 10 on SR carpets, but my olefin cleaner is a pH of 12.5. Olefin is also prone to wicking; it absorbs little water, is the only fiber which floats (specific gravity of 0.91), so I often have to bonnet it after cleaning…run an absorbent pad over the top to prevent wicking. Because of the added time, I charge more for olefin. I have to admit I used to be very critical of olefin, and think it to be a poor performer. I no longer feel that way, although olefin is not my choice for carpet fiber. It is, in some applications, superlative, and like all fibers, it has its strengths and weaknesses. Since berbers are often light, neutral colors, the homeowner had better be aware that olefin requires attention and maintenance to keep it looking good–as do *all* carpets. If not, well, it is your money… Mark IICRC Certified Master Cleaning Technician IICRC Certified Master Restoration Technician

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