Consumer Homes.

Question:

The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard (based on worldwide surveys of 21,000 people) defines the winter and summer comfort zones below with equal air and wall temperatures, equal human activity levels, and a fixed 0.1 m/s air velocity: T (F)         RH            clo          PMV            PPD 67.3          86            1            -.4778556      9.769089 75.0          66            1             .4732535      9.676994 78.3          15            1             .5239881      10.74283 70.2          20            1            -.4779105      9.770202 74.5          67            .5           -.4747404      9.706658 80.2          56            .5            .5145492      10.53611 82.2          13            .5            .5003051      10.23146 76.5          16            .5           -.4883473      9.982468 The winter zone assumes heavier clothing with more thermal resistance (clo=1), and the summer zone assumes lighter clothing (clo=0.5). The zones are defined by a +/- 0.5 score on a "Predicted Mean Vote" comfort scale that varies from -3 (very cold) to +3 (very warm.) The 4 corners of each zone are based on high and low temperatures and humidities. The "Percentage of People Dissatisfied" (PPD) score is based on the PMV. Even with PMV = 0 ("comfortable"), about 6% of the people are dissatisfied… If people are willing to change clothing more than twice a year (early PA farmers had one set of clothes for work and another for church, and washed them twice a year, when they also took baths and we vary air velocity with a ceiling fan, these zones can be expanded, which can make a solar house or one heated and cooled with the help of a whole-house fan more efficient. We can also raise the upper comfort temperature limit in air with lower humidity, and vice versa. The ASHRAE 55-2004 standard contains a BASIC program to help do this. Here are some calculations based on NREL’s long-term December and August weather averages for San Diego: 20 CLO = 1′clothing insulation (clo) 30 MET=1.1′metabolic rate (met) 40 WME=0′external work (met) 50 TA=19.6′air temp (C) 60 TR=19.6′mean radiant temp (C) 70 VEL=.1′air velocity 80 RH=0′relative humidity (%) 90 DATA 68.8,0.0062,0.05,1 100 DATA 83.9,0.0062,0.5,0.5 110 DATA 67.1,0.0121,0.05,1 120 DATA 82.9,0.0121,0.5,0.5 130 FOR CASE = 1 TO 4 140 READ TC,WA,VEL,CLO 145 TA=(TC-32)/1.8′air temp (C) 146 TR=TA’mean radiant temp (C) 150 PA=29.921*3377.2/(1+.62198/WA)’water vapor pressure (Pa) 160 DEF FNPS(T)=EXP(16.6536-4030.183/(TA+235))’sat vapor pressure, kPa 170 IF PA=0 THEN PA=RH*10*FNPS(TA)’water vapor pressure, Pa 180 ICL=.155*CLO’clothing resistance (m^2K/W) 190 M=MET*58.15′metabolic rate (W/m^2) 200 W=WME*58.15′external work in (W/m^2) 210 MW=M-W’internal heat production 220 IF ICL<.078 THEN FCL=1+1.29*ICL ELSE FCL=1.05+.645*ICL’clothing factor 230 HCF=12.1*SQR(VEL)’forced convection conductance 240 TAA=TA+273′air temp (K) 250 TRA=TR+273′mean radiant temp (K) 260 TCLA=TAA+(35.5-TA)/(3.5*(6.45*ICL+.1))’est clothing temp 270 P1=ICL*FCL:P2=P1*3.96:P3=P1*100:P4=P1*TAA’intermediate values 280 P5=308.7-.028*MW+P2*(TRA/100)^4 290 XN=TCLA/100 300 XF=XN 310 N=0′number of iterations 320 EPS=.00015’stop iteration when met 330 XF=(XF+XN)/2′natural convection conductance 340 HCN=2.38*ABS(100*XF-TAA)^.25 350 IF HCF>HCN THEN HC=HCF ELSE HC=HCN 360 XN=(P5+P4*HC-P2*XF^4)/(100+P3*HC) 370 N=N+1 380 IF N>150 GOTO 500 390 IF ABS(XN-XF)>EPS GOTO 330 400 TCL=100*XN-273′clothing surface temp (C) 410 HL1=.00305*(5733-6.99*MW-PA)’heat loss diff through skin 420 IF MW>58.15 THEN HL2=.42*(MW-58.15) ELSE HL2=0′heat loss by sweating 430 HL3=.000017*M*(5867-PA)’latent respiration heat loss 440 HL4=.0014*M*(34-TA)’dry respiration heat loss 450 HL5=3.96*FCL*(XN^4-(TRA/100)^4)’heat loss by radiation 460 HL6=FCL*HC*(TCL-TA)’heat loss by convection 470 TS=.303*EXP(-.036*M)+.028′thermal sensation transfer coefficient 480 PMV=TS*(MW-HL1-HL2-HL3-HL4-HL5-HL6)’predicted mean vote 490 GOTO 510 500 PMV=99999!:PPD=100 510 PRINT TC,WA,VEL,CLO,PMV 520 NEXT CASE Dry bulb      Humidity      Air vel.      Clothing     Predicted mean temp (F)      ratio         (m/s)         (Clo)        vote (PMV) 68.8          .0062         .05           1            -.4997552 83.9          .0062         .5            .5            .4852427 67.1          .0121         .05           1            -.491671 82.9          .0121         .5            .5            .4890098 NREL says average daily highs and lows are 48.8 and 66.1 F with w = 0.0062 pounds of water per pound of dry air in December and 67.3 and 77.8 with w = 0.0121 in August. An airtight well-insulated house with thermal mass and internal heat gain and a smart whole-house fan controller would barely need heating or cooling all year. Architects call this "thermal sailing." With inexpensive solar heating and whole-house fan heating and cooling, it would be more efficient to make the house air temperature closer to the upper comfort limit on an average winter day and closer to the lower comfort limit on an average summer day, in order to store lots of thermal energy in the mass of a house. A mean radiant (wall) temp that’s less than the house air temp in winter and greater in summer would allow raising the upper winter air comfort temp limit and lowering the lower summer air comfort temp limit. Occupants might also vary activity levels and wear clothing with more or less resistance, eg a sweater as well as a long- sleeve shirt in wintertime. Nick Innova AirTech Instruments has an excellent comfort web site: http://www.impind.de.unifi.it/Impind/didattica/materiale/microclima/i…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard (based on worldwide surveys of 21,000 > people) defines the winter and summer comfort zones below with equal air > and wall temperatures, equal human activity levels, and a fixed 0.1 m/s air > velocity: > T (F)         RH            clo          PMV            PPD > 67.3          86            1            -.4778556      9.769089 > 75.0          66            1             .4732535      9.676994 > 78.3          15            1             .5239881      10.74283 > 70.2          20            1            -.4779105      9.770202 > 74.5          67            .5           -.4747404      9.706658 > 80.2          56            .5            .5145492      10.53611 > 82.2          13            .5            .5003051      10.23146 > 76.5          16            .5           -.4883473      9.982468 > The winter zone assumes heavier clothing with more thermal resistance > (clo=1), and the summer zone assumes lighter clothing (clo=0.5). The > zones are defined by a +/- 0.5 score on a "Predicted Mean Vote" comfort > scale that varies from -3 (very cold) to +3 (very warm.) The 4 corners > of each zone are based on high and low temperatures and humidities. > The "Percentage of People Dissatisfied" (PPD) score is based on the > PMV. Even with PMV = 0 ("comfortable"), about 6% of the people are > dissatisfied… > If people are willing to change clothing more than twice a year (early > PA farmers had one set of clothes for work and another for church, and > washed them twice a year, when they also took baths

Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath in May and were still smelling pretty good by June. However, they were starting to smell, so brides carried a bouquet of flowers to hide the smell. Baths equaled a big tub filled with hot water. The man of the house  had the privilege of the nice clean water, then all the other sons and men, then the women and finally the children. Last of all the babies. By then the water was so dirty you could actually loose someone in it. Hence the saying, "Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water". Houses had thatched roofs. Thick straw piled high, with no wood  underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so all the pets… dogs, cats, and other small animals, mice, rats, bugs lived in the roof. When it rained it became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof. Hence the saying, "It’s raining cats and dogs," There was nothing to stop things from falling into the house. This posed a real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other droppings could really mess up your nice clean bed. So, they found if they made beds with big posts and hung a sheet over the top, it addressed that problem. Hence those beautiful big 4 poster beds with canopies. The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt, hence, the saying "dirt poor". The wealthy had slate floors which would get slippery in the winter when wet. So they spread thresh on the floor to help keep their footing. As the winter wore on they kept adding more thresh until when you opened the door it would all start slipping outside. A piece of wood was placed at the entryway, hence a "thresh hold". They cooked in the kitchen in a big kettle that always hung over the fire. Every day they lit the fire and added things to the pot. They mostly ate vegetables and didn’t get much meat. They would eat the stew for dinner leaving leftovers in the pot to get cold overnight and then start over the next day. Sometimes the stew had food in it that had been in there for a month. Hence the rhyme: peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot nine days old." Sometimes they could obtain pork and would feel really special when that happened. When company came over, they would bring out some bacon and hang it to show it off. It was a sign of wealth and that a man "could really bring home the bacon." They would cut off a little to share with guests and would all sit around and "chew the fat." Those with money had plates made of pewter. Food with a high acid content caused some of the lead to leach onto the food. This happened most often with tomatoes, so they stopped eating tomatoes… for 400 years. Most people didn’t have pewter plates, but had trenchers – a piece of wood with the middle scooped out like a bowl. Trencher were never washed and a lot of times worms got into the wood. After eating off wormy trenchers, they would get "trench mouth." Bread was divided according to status. Workers got the burnt bottom of the loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the top, or the "upper crust". Lead cups were used to drink ale or whiskey. The combination would sometimes knock them out for a couple of days. Someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for burial. They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see if they would wake up. Hence the custom of holding a "wake". Church yards started running out of places to bury people. So, they would dig up coffins and would take their bones to a house and re-use the grave. In reopening these coffins, one out of 25 coffins were found to have scratch marks on the inside and they realized they had been burying people alive. So they thought they would tie a string on their wrist and lead it through the coffin and up through the ground and tie it to a bell. Someone would have to sit out in the graveyard all night to listen for the bell. Hence on the "graveyard shift" they would know that someone was "saved by the bell" or he was a "dead ringer".

Response:

>>… PA farmers had one set of clothes for work and another for church, and >washed them twice a year, when they also took baths

They probably used soap and water and washcloths more often… >Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath in May >and were still smelling pretty good by June… >The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt, hence, >the saying "dirt poor". The wealthy had slate floors which would get >slippery in the winter when wet. So they spread thresh on the floor to help >keep their footing. As the winter wore on they kept adding more thresh until >when you opened the door it would all start slipping outside. A piece of >wood was placed at the entryway, hence a "thresh hold".

Wordorigins.org: Etymologies & Word Origins: Dirt Poor This term is US in origin and dates to 1937. The exact reference is uncertain, but it is most likely to be evocative of the dust bowl and the extreme poverty and unclean conditions in which many had to live during the Depression. The bit of internet lore about Life in the 1500s claims that it dates to Shakespearian England where finished floors were rare. This is utterly false. >Church yards started running out of places to bury people. So, they would >dig up coffins and would take their bones to a house and re-use the grave. >In reopening these coffins, one out of 25 coffins were found to have scratch >marks on the inside and they realized they had been burying people alive. So >they thought they would tie a string on their wrist and lead it through the >coffin and up through the ground and tie it to a bell. Someone would have to >sit out in the graveyard all night to listen for the bell. Hence on the >"graveyard shift" they would know that someone was "saved by the bell" or he >was a "dead ringer".

The Mavens’ Word of the Day May 15, 2001

   I’m interested in the etymology of the phrase dead ringer. I heard that its origins are tied to being buried alive and the idea of a doppelg

Question:

I’m thinking of building a greenhouse. I’d like to grow a few vegtables 12 months of the year, start seedlings, and not have any backup heat source. Our climate has fairly mild winters. In January, the average hi/low is 50F/28F (10C/-2C). I’m thinking of something maybe 8′ x 16′ (2.4m x 4.8m). I have a fair number of windows left over from upgrading our home. Given our latitude (34.6), I’m thinking in terms of vertical glass on the S, E, and W sides, and an insulated stud wall on the north. I like the idea of an attached shed on the north wall with the entrance there (air lock). I’d insulate the floor with some rigid foam, and pour concrete. I’m thinking of a translucent fiberglass roof. Does that all sound plausible? Bob

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’m thinking of building a greenhouse. I’d like to grow a few vegtables > 12 months of the year, start seedlings, and not have any backup heat > source. Our climate has fairly mild winters. In January, the average > hi/low is 50F/28F (10C/-2C). > I’m thinking of something maybe 8′ x 16′ (2.4m x 4.8m). I have a fair > number of windows left over from upgrading our home. Given our latitude > (34.6), I’m thinking in terms of vertical glass on the S, E, and W sides, > and an insulated stud wall on the north. I like the idea of an attached > shed on the north wall with the entrance there (air lock). I’d insulate > the floor with some rigid foam, and pour concrete. I’m thinking of a > translucent fiberglass roof. > Does that all sound plausible? > Bob

Fiberglass roofing deteriorates quickly compared to polycarbonate roofing. Moreover, polycarbonate comes in transparent sheets, but fiberglass is only translucent. However, fiberglass is less expensive than polycarbonate. We built a small lean-to greenhouse on the side of our house, using polycarbonate. My wife considers fiberglass ugly, and would have none of it. Thus, we did not calculate which is less expensive in the long run.

Response:

@fe2.texas.rr.com: > We built a small lean-to greenhouse on the side of our house, using > polycarbonate. My wife considers fiberglass ugly, and would have > none of it. Thus, we did not calculate which is less expensive in > the long run.

Good point. Our greenhouse would be located a good distance from the house with the roof facing away. I used some fiberglas as glazing on my shed, which I installed about 3 years ago (on the west wall). It still looks OK, but I expect it would age a lot faster in the near horizontal position of a roof. I’ll look into the polycarbonate. Thanks Bob

Response:

> I’m thinking of building a greenhouse. I’d like to grow a few vegtables > 12 months of the year, start seedlings, and not have any backup heat > source. Our climate has fairly mild winters. In January, the average > hi/low is 50F/28F (10C/-2C). > I’m thinking of something maybe 8′ x 16′ (2.4m x 4.8m). I have a fair > number of windows left over from upgrading our home. Given our latitude > (34.6), I’m thinking in terms of vertical glass on the S, E, and W sides, > and an insulated stud wall on the north. I like the idea of an attached > shed on the north wall with the entrance there (air lock). I’d insulate > the floor with some rigid foam, and pour concrete. I’m thinking of a > translucent fiberglass roof. > Does that all sound plausible?

It is a ‘rule of thumb’ that your south facing for a greenhouse should be at an angle as close to your lattitude as you can make it.  If you make your south facing roof 35 degrees starting 6 feet/ 2 meters  you will get more energy in than if you build a straight 10 foot wall and then start the slant roof.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’m thinking of building a greenhouse. I’d like to grow a few vegtables > 12 months of the year, start seedlings, and not have any backup heat > source. Our climate has fairly mild winters. In January, the average > hi/low is 50F/28F (10C/-2C). > I’m thinking of something maybe 8′ x 16′ (2.4m x 4.8m). I have a fair > number of windows left over from upgrading our home. Given our latitude > (34.6), I’m thinking in terms of vertical glass on the S, E, and W sides, > and an insulated stud wall on the north. I like the idea of an attached > shed on the north wall with the entrance there (air lock). I’d insulate > the floor with some rigid foam, and pour concrete. I’m thinking of a > translucent fiberglass roof. > Does that all sound plausible? > Bob

Hi Bob, I’d get a copy of this book: Solar Greenhouses and Sunspaces by Adrew Shapiro It is the best of the greenhouse/sunspace books I have run across, and   includes design procedures for greenhouses that are intended only for plant growing as well as ones intended for home heating and plant growing.  There is a lot that goes into a well designed greenhouse including lighting, ventilation, insulating, thermal mass, good construction techniques… — this book book gives quantitative advice on all of these. Its out of print, but available at Amazon.com used books for about 5 bucks — quite a bargain! Gary

Response:

> Hi Bob, > I’d get a copy of this book: > Solar Greenhouses and Sunspaces by Adrew Shapiro

Thanks for the Amazon tip. I just ordered it. I’ve read a number of books on greenhouses, but that was before I really had an opportunity to build one. Bob

Response:

> It is a ‘rule of thumb’ that your south facing for a greenhouse should > be at an angle as close to your lattitude as you can make it.  

There are tradeoffs. It is a little more (about 20% in my case) efficient in January, but a lot more efficient in August. Also, hail dammage is much more likely with sloped glass and construction is more difficult. I think (not sure) that I’d rather go with more thermal mass and vertical walls. Bob

Response:

>> You might get about 11×4x8×0.8×311Btu/h = 88K Btu/h of peak sun > through those 11 panels… >   My original calculations were close to that except that I think this >assumes they are all facing due south. In fact, 10 of them face 15 deg >east of south and one 15 deg south of west. (The greenhouse is attached >to my house so the house orientation dictated the pane orientation). >Also allowing for less than perfect transittance (about 90% according to >the GE sales brochure for the lexan) and we’re down to about 70K btu/hr.

Same ball park. I figured 10% transmittance per layer (the 0.8 above.) > Seems like 700 cfm would allow an empty greenhouse temp to rise about > 88K/700 = 125 F above the rock bed temperature… >   These are key points, so let’s look at them. The fans are in series, >so the air flow is probably close to 350cfm. My objective was to be able >to drop the air temp by at least 35 deg F as it flowed through the rocks >(peak value). This would absorb 40K btu/hr…

It seems to me that 1 Btu heats about 55 ft^3 of air 1 F, so 350 cfm of air that flows with a temperature difference of 35 F would carry closer to 350×35x60/55 = 13.3K Btu/h of heat power, about 20% of the peak solar power, by your calculation. >   The peak temperature in the greenhouse stabilizes out at about 85 deg >F (with a air temp exiting from the rockbed of 45-50). This extra heat >isn’t wasted since it gets absorbed in the top of the soil, the >greenhouse structure and the concrete paver floor…

Well, yes, you have the other objective of keeping the greenhouse warm at night, beyond simply heating the attached house. >   My concern is when the rock bed warms up more, that peak temperatures >in the greenhouse may get high enough to damage plants. If this appears >to be a problem I may need to look into supplementary cooling (such as >an extra fan connected to a regular thermostat).

Or add more storage, or maybe use a passive Thermofor sash vent actuator like the $54 FC115 Classic from Jade Mountain (800) 442-1972, which "opens any hinged window up to 15 pounds a full 15"" at a selectable temperature between 55 and 85 F. >   The fans are rated by the manufacturer at 100 w each. Seems amazingly >low but it’s on the sticker. They sure blow well.

I wonder who make’s ‘em? Grainger’s 4C688 moves 560 cfm with 36 watts, at about 1/8" H20 of static pressure. Their $110 48" 4C853 ceiling fan moves 21K cfm with 86 watts. I could see using two of them to blow warm air down from the top of a sunspace into an 8′ insulated cube with 32 55 gallon water drums inside and a 4′x8′ motorized foamboard damper above the fans that’s hinged on the north side and reflective underneath with some passive plastic film one-way exhaust damper skirts below to collect 56 peak horsepower of sun from a housewarmer with a $25 16×32′ piece of plastic film glazing and a 3 F temperature rise, and a COP of 244. Nick

Response:

Have you looked at some of the ideas in "Solviva"?? I’m thinking of a solar greenhouse too, in NW Montana. My idea is too use some of the ideas for earth-sheltered housing, ie build it into a hillside and insulate a large mass of the ground around it. In addition I was thinking of putting the water mass right into an insulated tank in the foundation/slab so that the heat transfer can be controlled. Anybody with any ideas at all, wild, crazy, hard science, or other please contact me.  To paraphrase the X-Files, "The Truth is "out" there.  ; ) thanks – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hi gang. I’ve just got a solar greenhouse going. The idea is to keep >it above freezing all during an Eastern Ontraio winter. >   It’s 40 x 8 and attached to my house. Has 11 4×8 double-pane lexan >panals mounted vertically. Insulated roof and walls. When the sun’s >shining, warm air is blown through a 120-ton rock bed under the floor by >2 350 cfm air fans, one pulling warm air off the ceiling the other >pulling cold air from the bottom of the rocks. They are controlled by a >Helicol differential controller. >  So far my experience is mixed, partly because the insulation isn’t >complete and partly because I only got it working in late January, when >it was pretty well frozen up. In spite of this, there has been some >success in warming the underfloor mass. I put in my first experimental >planting last week. >  Looking to share ideas/info with anyone who has built or is thinking >of building something similar. >– >"One good thing about self-pity…you don’t have to doubt it’s >sincerity."

Response:

> It seems to me that 1 Btu heats about 55 ft^3 of air 1 F, so 350 cfm > of air that flows with a temperature difference of 35 F would carry > closer to 350×35x60/55 = 13.3K Btu/h of heat power, about 20% of the > peak solar power, by your calculation.

  Thank you. You’re absolutely right. Hadn’t looked at the calculations in a while. The idea was not to ram every last bit of heat into the rocks as soon as it arrives, but to get a major fraction of the surplus heat down below the floor over the course of the day and following evening.    The peak solar power only lasts for a couple of hours. In order to achieve the "slow and gentle" approach I had in mind as a design philosophy, I only need to temporarily capture this peak power at the surface.    The key number when calculating the need for airflow is how much heat is captured during a sunny day. According to my tables, it is about 6 times the hourly maximum, 6×70 = 420K btu. I am assuming that I would be lucky to get two/thirds of this stored underground when all is said and done. This means that over a day I need to transport under the floor 2/3 x 420 = 280Kbtu, or about 21-22 hours of fan running time at 13K/hr.    Those were my calculations. Right now the fans are running only about 12 hours, but as I said I’ve still got insulation and other details to complete. >   The fans are rated by the manufacturer at 100 w each. > I wonder who make’s ‘em? Grainger’s 4C688 moves 560 cfm with 36 watts, > at about 1/8" H20 of static pressure. Their $110 48" 4C853 ceiling fan > moves 21K cfm with 86 watts.

 Mine are Fantech FR200, rated at 360 cfm at "20 in.wg", (whatever that is). They cost $400 Canadian each (about $270 U.S.), and are from an industrial not home supplier.  They’re supposed to be first-rate, and the vendor is an established local firm. Physically, the cases are very well built, and they run smooth and quiet. Do you know why other fans have better specs? >   The peak temperature in the greenhouse stabilizes out at about 85 deg >F (with a air temp exiting from the rockbed of 45-50). This extra heat >isn’t wasted since it gets absorbed in the top of the soil, the >greenhouse structure and the concrete paver floor… > Well, yes, you have the other objective of keeping the greenhouse warm > at night, beyond simply heating the attached house.

   That’s not quite my philosophy. First, I’m not using the greenhouse to heat my house (except incidentally). The intention is only to use the stored heat to keep the greenhouse warm when the sun isn’t shining.     What I want to do is hold the solar peak power at the floor level long enough for the fans to stuff it below the floor. However our current discussion has served to clarify in my mind what I might do to help this: build a bench out of large rocks/bricks/concrete blocks etc along the back wall. Being low down it would catch the low winter sun as it came in the windows, and act as a temporary passive heat sink. This should help to deal with the next point (from my previous reply)… >   My concern is when the rock bed warms up more, that peak temperatures >in the greenhouse may get high enough to damage plants.

   This conversation has been useful to clarify my thoughts, and I hope others find it interesting. Thanks again. — "One good thing about self-pity…you don’t have to doubt it’s sincerity."

Response:

Hi gang. I’ve just got a solar greenhouse going. The idea is to keep it above freezing all during an Eastern Ontraio winter.    It’s 40 x 8 and attached to my house. Has 11 4×8 double-pane lexan panals mounted vertically. Insulated roof and walls. When the sun’s shining, warm air is blown through a 120-ton rock bed under the floor by 2 350 cfm air fans, one pulling warm air off the ceiling the other pulling cold air from the bottom of the rocks. They are controlled by a Helicol differential controller.   So far my experience is mixed, partly because the insulation isn’t complete and partly because I only got it working in late January, when it was pretty well frozen up. In spite of this, there has been some success in warming the underfloor mass. I put in my first experimental planting last week.   Looking to share ideas/info with anyone who has built or is thinking of building something similar.   — "One good thing about self-pity…you don’t have to doubt it’s sincerity."

Response:

> I wonder if this site has Canadian weather data… > FREE CANADIAN RENEWABLE ENERGY SOFTWARE AVAILABLE

   I started planning for this project pre-Internet, and had no trouble locating climate books in bookstores. I’d undoubtely use the Web today though. > You might get about 11×4x8×0.8×311Btu/h = 88K Btu/h of peak sun > through those 11 panels…

   My original calculations were close to that except that I think this assumes they are all facing due south. In fact, 10 of them face 15 deg east of south and one 15 deg south of west. (The greenhouse is attached to my house so the house orientation dictated the pane orientation). Also allowing for less than perfect transittance (about 90% according to the GE sales brochure for the lexan) and we’re down to about 70K btu/hr.    This tallies with my estimates of air flow (see below). >…When the sun’s shining, warm air is blown through a 120-ton rock bed >under the floor by 2 350 cfm air fans, one pulling warm air off the >ceiling the other pulling cold air from the bottom of the rocks. > That’s a lot of rocks, but not much airflow. Seems like 700 cfm would > allow an empty greenhouse temp to rise about 88K/700 = 125 F above the > rock bed temperature, or twice that if the fans are in series, so a lot > of the heat would be wasted on a sunny day. I wonder how much power your > fans use, and if the rock bed is insulated above. Have you measured > their static pressure?

   These are key points, so let’s look at them. The fans are in series, so the air flow is probably close to 350cfm. My objective was to be able to drop the air temp by at least 35 deg F as it flowed through the rocks (peak value). This would absorb 40K btu/hr, or well over half the peak heat gain. In fact I am very close to that, with peak temp drop of 34 F.    The peak temperature in the greenhouse stabilizes out at about 85 deg F (with a air temp exiting from the rockbed of 45-50). This extra heat isn’t wasted since it gets absorbed in the top of the soil, the greenhouse structure and the concrete paver floor. This heat is given back later in the afternoon; the fan runs well after dark before shutting off. As long as I succeed in completing the last insulation details it should be able to be hold the surplus heat in fairly well until the fans can capture it.    My concern is when the rock bed warms up more, that peak temperatures in the greenhouse may get high enough to damage plants. If this appears to be a problem I may need to look into supplementary cooling (such as an extra fan connected to a regular thermostat).    The fans are rated by the manufacturer at 100 w each. Seems amazingly low but it’s on the sticker. They sure blow well.    As to insulating above the rock bed, not specifically. I want the heat to rise back up. Above the rock bed I have a tarp, a few inches of fine gravel and concrete pavers. Rough calculation indicated that this might give me a reasonable return flow of heat overnite.    This is obviously a key factor, but I haven’t been able to warm up the bed enough to really test it. May have to wait till next winter to see. If it’s not enough heat flow I may need to make modifications. > An insulated above-ground box of sealed containers of water might have > less resistance to airflow, so it would need less fan power, and it might > be 3X smaller, since water stores 3X more heat than rocks by volume.

   Water containers are a popular option, but I chose rocks for the following reasons: a) I had lots kicking around b) they can’t leak c) They can be stacked on top of each other without worrying about crushing and d) I had an irregular shape for the rock bed caused by a very large boulder and they made it easier to work around.    Yes rocks have a lower heat storage capacity but I compensated with volume. Because the bed has a quite substantial cross-section, air flow restriction does not seem to be a problem. > I had that problem with a sunspace with too much moisture. It froze on > the inside of the glazing and reflected most of the sun out. Bright sun, > frozen sunspace. A better vapor barrier on the ground fixed the problem.

  Once I get plants growing I may well face that problem. I wonder if anti-fogging or water-repellent compounds might help? > If I were building a greenhouse, I’d look into filling the cavity > between two layers of glazing with tiny soap bubbles at night..

   I have GE thermapane which has ribbed cavities. Too small and too many to fill in such a way, and I’m not sure if it would help with the R-value.   > Maybe it could also be used for drying herbs and vegetables…

   works great for laundry as well Thanks for the feedback. Hope others find this exchange useful. Cheers. — "One good thing about self-pity…you don’t have to doubt it’s sincerity."

Response:

>Hi gang.

Hi Dave, >I’ve just got a solar greenhouse going.

Congratulations >The idea is to keep it above freezing all during an Eastern Ontraio winter.

Not easy, I’ll bet. One big problem with greenhouses seems to be that plants need light, so they need lots of solar glazing that is usually not well-insulated at night, and growers don’t like to waste space or create shade with extra solar heating equipment inside the greenhouse. I wonder if this site has Canadian weather data… FREE CANADIAN RENEWABLE ENERGY SOFTWARE AVAILABLE Natural Resources Canada has announced the availability of a new software tool for evaluating renewable energy technology projects. The software called RETScreen, is a standardized project analysis software that facilitates the identification of cost-effective deployment opportunities for renewable energies. The following models are currently available: wind energy, small hydro, photovoltaic, solar ventilation air heating and biomass heating. Three new models which deal with solar water heaters, passive solar heating and ground source heat pumps, will be added to the tool in August 1999. For more information contact Natural Resources The software can be downloaded free at website: <http://retscreen.gc.ca> >   It’s 40 x 8 and attached to my house. Has 11 4×8 double-pane lexan >panals mounted vertically.

You might get about 11×4x8×0.8×311Btu/h = 88K Btu/h of peak sun through those 11 panels… >…When the sun’s shining, warm air is blown through a 120-ton rock bed >under the floor by 2 350 cfm air fans, one pulling warm air off the >ceiling the other pulling cold air from the bottom of the rocks.

That’s a lot of rocks, but not much airflow. Seems like 700 cfm would allow an empty greenhouse temp to rise about 88K/700 = 125 F above the rock bed temperature, or twice that if the fans are in series, so a lot of the heat would be wasted on a sunny day. I wonder how much power your fans use, and if the rock bed is insulated above. Have you measured their static pressure? An insulated above-ground box of sealed containers of water might have less resistance to airflow, so it would need less fan power, and it might be 3X smaller, since water stores 3X more heat than rocks by volume. >  So far my experience is mixed, partly because the insulation isn’t >complete and partly because I only got it working in late January, when >it was pretty well frozen up.

I had that problem with a sunspace with too much moisture. It froze on the inside of the glazing and reflected most of the sun out. Bright sun, frozen sunspace. A better vapor barrier on the ground fixed the problem.   >  Looking to share ideas/info with anyone who has built or is thinking >of building something similar.  

If I were building a greenhouse, I’d look into filling the cavity between two layers of glazing with tiny soap bubbles at night, a la Thermatics of Montreal, or maybe add on a section whose only purpose was to collect and store heat for the greenhouse proper… A local grower and I put 200 55 gallons of water inside his 20×100′ half-cylindrical plastic film greenhouse, under the benches. No special airflow or insulation for them. That raised the average air temp in the greenhouse about 5 F, and reduced his propane heating bill from $8K to 1500, he says… It seems to me those drums would have worked better in a big box off one end of the greenhouse, something like this:                    100′                  36′      |                            |  drums in   |      |        greenhouse          |   solar     | 20′      |                            |  closet?    | Insulating the north half of the double poly greenhouse makes the overall thermal resistance about 5Pi/R1.2 = 13 Btu/h-F per linear foot, so it needs about 24h(70F-30F)13 = 12.5K Btu per linear foot to stay warm over a 30 F day. Where I live, the greenhouse gathers about 5Pix1620×0.8 = 20.3K Btu per linear foot, so that seems OK, except on a cloudy day. Keeping it warm for 5 cloudy days in a row takes 5×12.5K = 62.5K Btu, which might come from 62.5K/(120F-40F) = 780 pounds of water cooling from 120 to 40 F, about 1.7 55 gallon drums per linear foot of greenhouse, or 175 for a 100′ greenhouse. They might be stacked 2-high in a box that’s about 12′wide x 36′long x 8′ tall, almost as big as the original greenhouse Maybe it could also be used for drying herbs and vegetables… At night, or on a cloudy day, the greenhouse needs 52K Btu/h of heat. If air leaves the box 10 F warmer than it enters, that means about 5200 cfm of airflow, which seems doable with a couple of Grainger’s $26 4CH71 117 watt 3200 cfm 20" window box fans. Nick

Response:

Question:

seasoning.    De-glaze with sherry, cooking off the alcohol.    Add broth (optional) cook a few more minutes.    Add the cornstarch, cook a few minutes till thick,       then place the stuffing into a colander and cool;    2 hours Wrap the rolls:      Place 3 tablespoons of stuffing in the wrap, roll tightly –       corner nearest you first, fold 2 side corners in,       wrap till remaining corner is left.    Brush with egg, seal, and allow to sit on the seal for    a few minutes. Fry the rolls:      325

Question:

Gotta read it to the end, to get it. WHY I WON’T VOTE FOR BUSH By Nelson Ascher Let me be straightforward here. I’m an atheist and a secularist. By atheist I mean that I take the possibility of there being any kind of transcendence, anything supernatural, anything that is not explainable or that won’t be eventually be explained by the laws of physics (which I don’t pretend to understand fully) to be infinitesimally small. I’d really love it if there were something else besides what I can see, because what I can see if suffering, fear and crap. I’d like to think I’ll meet my loved ones who disappeared into nothingness or, to put it even less metaphorically, have disintegrated, don’t exist anymore, are not. It would be nice to imagine that I will outlast my mortal bodily being. But I can’t. Maybe that’s a failure of imagination. The trouble with atheism is the same as with learning to play the piano. To be able to play it well, you’ve got to learn it before you have time to fall in love with music. When you get to love music, it’s usually too late for your fingers to learn the right movements. In the same way, one becomes an atheist before one learns what fear, finitude and mortality are. As a secularist, I simply don’t want other people’s beliefs dictating my behavior. You don’t want to eat pork? Fine, but leave me alone with my Spanish "jamon de jabugo" or "pata negra". You dislike spirits? OK. Even so I’ll drink my cognac. Sex outside marriage is sinful for you? That’s your trouble, not mine. Live and let me live. When I became a conscious atheist (I think that was when, for the hundredth time, in spite of my prayers, God almighty didn’t grant me the grades I needed at junior high school) I also started to militate. I couldn’t admit anyone disbelieving in my disbelief. I thought: I’m so smart and they’re so stupid. Eventually I came around to the conclusion that I couldn’t be so smarter than almost everybody else: a bit maybe, but not that much. So, the conclusions I arrived at could also have been arrived at by most people, living, dead or still to be born. If they took another way, they must have had their own reasons for it. Probably much comes down to temperament, a disposition we’re born with and cannot do much to change. Then I discovered one could be both an unbeliever and a total idiot. For instance, during the 1982 Falkland’s war my leftist friends, atheists to the last comrade, believed in earnest that Argentina could beat the UK. Well, Biblical miracles sound more plausible to me. And what about secularism? All I can say is that I discovered a value that nowadays attracts me much more: tolerance. I’d rather live among tolerant believers than among intolerant secularists. But I’m even worse than an atheist and a secularist. I know human life is cheap. How do I know it? You can contract the murder of almost anyone here in Brazil for less than U$ 1,000. And if you just happen to run with your car over somebody here, that won’t even get you in jail. Ultimately, human life is worth as much as each of us think it’s worth, as much as a collectivity, community and society think it does. And it is also that society that’ll say more or less arbitrarily where or when a human life begins and ends. If most agree it does begin at conception, then forget about abortion and if they also think that whatever someone does, he/she is still entitled to live out the span of his natural life, than forget too about capital punishment. If the majority, in a democratic society, decide to the contrary, then neither abortion nor capital punishment will be seen as murder. These things change from time to time and from place to place. I wouldn’t ever forbid abortion (though it is still illegal in my left-wing governed country), but I think it is nasty, unpleasant and the people involved should have used some anti-conceptive method. And though I’m no enthusiast for hangings of executions in general, I wouldn’t move a finger to save Adolph Eichmann’s or Timothy McVeigh’s unworthy lives. Actually, there were some well-deserved deaths that made me so happy that, as soon as I was informed of them, I opened a bottle of whatever I had at hand to celebrate. I toasted thus the deaths of Francisco Franco, Anastasio Somoza, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Nicolae Ceaucescu, sheik Ahmed Yassin etc. If this makes me a pervert, so be it. I don’t trust any kind of socialism and I dislike big government. Nevertheless, with so much food in the world I think it is disgusting to see people starving to death. I have no trouble with societies that opt for assuring even their poorest citizens a certain minimum: food, shelter, transport, education, health. Poverty is nasty. I’m against all forms of censorship. Even Al Jazeera and the BBC must be allowed to broadcast. But only its voluntary viewers should voluntarily pay for this. I know we’re not born equal. Some are born with genes that will kill them before they reach their teens. Others will be born with such body forms that’ll allow them to earn millions just walking along the cat-walk. It is unfair, but that’s how it is. Equal luck is unenforceable, but equal rights are a dogma for me. And I couldn’t care less for anybody’s skin color, faith or lack thereof, good or bad looks (though my right to choose my girlfriends according to my aesthetic specifications I hold to be unalienable). I could go on and on, but my point is: am I a left or a right-winger, a liberal or a conservative? I don’t know. I’m, however, deeply pessimistic about human nature and somewhat optimistic about human resilience and resourcefulness. And one thing I’m completely sure about is, though I know you are all out there to get me and I also know that you have all been thinking horrible things about me, that there are reds waiting under my bed and Nazis hiding in my wardrobe, well, I’m sure I’m no paranoid. And let’s be serious: I do think there’s a world war out there. Why should I think this? Just because 3,000 out of 300 million Americans were killed over three years ago? Come on, that’s not a war, that’s just a common terrorist attack with a couple of zeroes added. It’s business as usual, isn’t it? I remember when a friend of mine came to visit me, maybe 15 years ago, with the newest issue of "Veja", the Brazilian equivalent of Time magazine. He was outraged. That had to do with a teenage girl who lived in one of Sao Paulo’s most exclusive residential closed suburb had been gang-raped and killed. No, it wasn’t the crime that outraged my friend, but the fact that the magazine gave the story its cover-page. You see, he told me, had it been a poor black girl from the slums, she wouldn’t have made it even to the magazine’s most hidden page. I told him: of course not, but it’s not the slum-dwellers who subscribe to "Veja" and if such a thing can happen in the town’s wealthiest place, that’s a sign things are getting really bad and that’s news. I also told him: if you happen to find a roach at night in your kitchen, that means there’s at least one roach in your house. But if you find one at high noon in your living-room you can be sure your house’s roach-infested. That’s one of the meanings of 9/11. That you cannot be safe in Darfur or Beirut, in the Philippines or Indonesia, that’s a problem. But if you can be murdered by Islamic terrorists while you’re on the top floor of the WTC, then that’s not a problem anymore. That’s much bigger. The progressive idea was to turn, for instance, Beirut into NY. If that’s not being accomplished, this is bad enough. But when people start turning NY into Beirut, we’re definitely moving backwards. And fast. An attack that manages to ground all US and most of the world’s air traffic and close down the stock markets around the planet is something qualitatively different from a bomb in an Ulster pub. Human life is fragile, so is democracy, the world economy, globalization etc. The US can absorb U$ 1 trillion in damages. The rest of the world cannot. The US can survive a nuke in Manhattan. Brazil can survive a nuke in Sao Paulo. But Brazil cannot survive a nuke in Manhattan. What most of the world’s anti-Americans fail to understand is that whatever harms deeply the US harms us even more. Were Africa to suddenly disappear, it wouldn’t make much of a change in the life of New Yorkers. Were NY to disappear, Africa would go along. So, this is what I have to say for those who think that Americans have overreacted to 9/11. Actually they have under-reacted. One more attack on America and Latin America will be condemned to a further hundred years of solitude and misery. There are around 200 countries in the world today. Think that every floor of each WTC tower was one of them. The richest were those closer to the ground, the poorest the highest ones. If the base crumbles, the hundredth floor is unable to stand alone in thin air. Besides, the closer people were to the ground, the safer they were. The whole world is the WTC and those who inhabit its higher floors want to see the building collapse. That’s as clever as setting fire to the floor below your own. But there’s more. France has something around 5 million Muslims nowadays. Does anybody think that after an attack on the Tour Montparnasse followed by a couple of bombs at the stations Opera and Louvre there’d be social peace and tolerance there? Are we sure that after blowing up Big Ben and Buckingham Palace the Brits would keep their stiff upper lip? And what about a 747 setting the Vatican afire and killing the Pope? How long would the unbearable lightness of being an Euro multiculti pomo last? Sometimes I think that the French government forbade the use of veil by Muslim schoolgirls as a way to make them a little less visible to the rest of the Frenchmen. The actual damage of a terrorist attack has less to do with its dimensions than with the when and where. A single, tiny blood clot can kill a 200 pound guy. On the other … read more »

Response:

It’s not my bedtime yet and I didn’t want to take a nap.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gotta read it to the end, to get it. > WHY I WON’T VOTE FOR BUSH > By Nelson Ascher > Let me be straightforward here. I’m an atheist and a secularist. > By atheist I mean that I take the possibility of there being any kind of > transcendence, anything supernatural, anything that is not explainable or > that won’t be eventually be explained by the laws of physics (which I don’t > pretend to understand fully) to be infinitesimally small. I’d really love it > if there were something else besides what I can see, because what I can see > if suffering, fear and crap. I’d like to think I’ll meet my loved ones who > disappeared into nothingness or, to put it even less metaphorically, have > disintegrated, don’t exist anymore, are not. It would be nice to imagine > that I will outlast my mortal bodily being. But I can’t. Maybe that’s a > failure of imagination. The trouble with atheism is the same as with > learning to play the piano. To be able to play it well, you’ve got to learn > it before you have time to fall in love with music. When you get to love > music, it’s usually too late for your fingers to learn the right movements. > In the same way, one becomes an atheist before one learns what fear, > finitude and mortality are. > As a secularist, I simply don’t want other people’s beliefs dictating my > behavior. You don’t want to eat pork? Fine, but leave me alone with my > Spanish "jamon de jabugo" or "pata negra". You dislike spirits? OK. Even so > I’ll drink my cognac. Sex outside marriage is sinful for you? That’s your > trouble, not mine. Live and let me live. > When I became a conscious atheist (I think that was when, for the hundredth > time, in spite of my prayers, God almighty didn’t grant me the grades I > needed at junior high school) I also started to militate. I couldn’t admit > anyone disbelieving in my disbelief. I thought: I’m so smart and they’re so > stupid. Eventually I came around to the conclusion that I couldn’t be so > smarter than almost everybody else: a bit maybe, but not that much. So, the > conclusions I arrived at could also have been arrived at by most people, > living, dead or still to be born. If they took another way, they must have > had their own reasons for it. Probably much comes down to temperament, a > disposition we’re born with and cannot do much to change. > Then I discovered one could be both an unbeliever and a total idiot. For > instance, during the 1982 Falkland’s war my leftist friends, atheists to the > last comrade, believed in earnest that Argentina could beat the UK. Well, > Biblical miracles sound more plausible to me. > And what about secularism? All I can say is that I discovered a value that > nowadays attracts me much more: tolerance. I’d rather live among tolerant > believers than among intolerant secularists. > But I’m even worse than an atheist and a secularist. I know human life is > cheap. How do I know it? You can contract the murder of almost anyone here > in Brazil for less than U$ 1,000. And if you just happen to run with your > car over somebody here, that won’t even get you in jail. Ultimately, human > life is worth as much as each of us think it’s worth, as much as a > collectivity, community and society think it does. And it is also that > society that’ll say more or less arbitrarily where or when a human life > begins and ends. If most agree it does begin at conception, then forget > about abortion and if they also think that whatever someone does, he/she is > still entitled to live out the span of his natural life, than forget too > about capital punishment. If the majority, in a democratic society, decide > to the contrary, then neither abortion nor capital punishment will be seen > as murder. These things change from time to time and from place to place. > I wouldn’t ever forbid abortion (though it is still illegal in my left-wing > governed country), but I think it is nasty, unpleasant and the people > involved should have used some anti-conceptive method. And though I’m no > enthusiast for hangings of executions in general, I wouldn’t move a finger > to save Adolph Eichmann’s or Timothy McVeigh’s unworthy lives. Actually, > there were some well-deserved deaths that made me so happy that, as soon as > I was informed of them, I opened a bottle of whatever I had at hand to > celebrate. I toasted thus the deaths of Francisco Franco, Anastasio Somoza, > Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Nicolae Ceaucescu, sheik Ahmed Yassin etc. If > this makes me a pervert, so be it. > I don’t trust any kind of socialism and I dislike big government. > Nevertheless, with so much food in the world I think it is disgusting to see > people starving to death. I have no trouble with societies that opt for > assuring even their poorest citizens a certain minimum: food, shelter, > transport, education, health. Poverty is nasty. > I’m against all forms of censorship. Even Al Jazeera and the BBC must be > allowed to broadcast. But only its voluntary viewers should voluntarily pay > for this. > I know we’re not born equal. Some are born with genes that will kill them > before they reach their teens. Others will be born with such body forms > that’ll allow them to earn millions just walking along the cat-walk. It is > unfair, but that’s how it is. Equal luck is unenforceable, but equal rights > are a dogma for me. And I couldn’t care less for anybody’s skin color, faith > or lack thereof, good or bad looks (though my right to choose my girlfriends > according to my aesthetic specifications I hold to be unalienable). > I could go on and on, but my point is: am I a left or a right-winger, a > liberal or a conservative? I don’t know. I’m, however, deeply pessimistic > about human nature and somewhat optimistic about human resilience and > resourcefulness. > And one thing I’m completely sure about is, though I know you are all out > there to get me and I also know that you have all been thinking horrible > things about me, that there are reds waiting under my bed and Nazis hiding > in my wardrobe, well, I’m sure I’m no paranoid. > And let’s be serious: I do think there’s a world war out there. Why should I > think this? Just because 3,000 out of 300 million Americans were killed over > three years ago? Come on, that’s not a war, that’s just a common terrorist > attack with a couple of zeroes added. It’s business as usual, isn’t it? > I remember when a friend of mine came to visit me, maybe 15 years ago, with > the newest issue of "Veja", the Brazilian equivalent of Time magazine. He > was outraged. That had to do with a teenage girl who lived in one of Sao > Paulo’s most exclusive residential closed suburb had been gang-raped and > killed. No, it wasn’t the crime that outraged my friend, but the fact that > the magazine gave the story its cover-page. You see, he told me, had it been > a poor black girl from the slums, she wouldn’t have made it even to the > magazine’s most hidden page. I told him: of course not, but it’s not the > slum-dwellers who subscribe to "Veja" and if such a thing can happen in the > town’s wealthiest place, that’s a sign things are getting really bad and > that’s news. I also told him: if you happen to find a roach at night in your > kitchen, that means there’s at least one roach in your house. But if you > find one at high noon in your living-room you can be sure your house’s > roach-infested. > That’s one of the meanings of 9/11. That you cannot be safe in Darfur or > Beirut, in the Philippines or Indonesia, that’s a problem. But if you can be > murdered by Islamic terrorists while you’re on the top floor of the WTC, > then that’s not a problem anymore. That’s much bigger. The progressive idea > was to turn, for instance, Beirut into NY. If that’s not being accomplished, > this is bad enough. But when people start turning NY into Beirut, we’re > definitely moving backwards. And fast. > An attack that manages to ground all US and most of the world’s air traffic > and close down the stock markets around the planet is something > qualitatively different from a bomb in an Ulster pub. Human life is fragile, > so is democracy, the world economy, globalization etc. The US can absorb U$ > 1 trillion in damages. The rest of the world cannot. The US can survive a > nuke in Manhattan. Brazil can survive a nuke in Sao Paulo. But Brazil cannot > survive a nuke in Manhattan. What most of the world’s anti-Americans fail to > understand is that whatever harms deeply the US harms us even more. Were > Africa to suddenly disappear, it wouldn’t make much of a change in the life > of New Yorkers. Were NY to disappear, Africa would go along. > So, this is what I have to say for those who think that Americans have > overreacted to 9/11. Actually they have under-reacted. One more attack on > America and Latin America will be condemned to a further hundred years of > solitude and misery. > There are around 200 countries in the world today. Think that every floor of > each WTC tower was one of them. The richest were those closer to the ground, > the poorest the highest ones. If the base crumbles, the hundredth floor is > unable to stand alone in thin air. Besides, the closer people were to the > ground, the safer they were. The whole world is the WTC and those who > inhabit its higher floors want to see the building collapse. That’s as > clever as setting fire to the floor below your own. > But there’s more. France has something around 5 million Muslims nowadays. > Does anybody think that after an attack on the Tour Montparnasse followed by > a couple of bombs at the stations Opera and Louvre there’d be social peace > and tolerance there? Are we sure that after blowing up Big Ben and > Buckingham Palace the Brits would keep their stiff upper lip? And what about

… read more »

Response:

> It’s not my bedtime yet and I didn’t want to take a nap.

Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering,        Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers

Response:

> Gotta read it to the end, to get it. > I’m against all forms of censorship. Even Al Jazeera and the BBC must be > allowed to broadcast. But only its voluntary viewers should voluntarily pay > for this.

The BBC is a respectable news organizations. Al Jazeera are amateurish scumbags who mix twisted news with hideous commentary, give pivotal airtime to terrorists, and seem to support the practice of hostage taking http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BA590075-7765-4122-B54B-EEAA8A…

Response:

: Gotta read it to the end, to get it.  naw, I didn’t have to read any further than who started this thread "to get it"  so sparing anyone else (crap snipped)

Response:

Question:

    I don’t know if this post is a question, or a story, or a proposition, or what it is…well, anyway, here it goes, make of it what you will, but it made me very excited in all the wrong ways….     So last night my band was headlining a gig at a pretty cool venue (for those of you playing at home, it was The Gershwin room at The Espy, St. Kilda), and so a friend of mine, Damo who’s the bass player in Australian band ‘28 Days’ (you may, or may not have heard of them, but they’re doing kinda well) came down and after the show we were talking about bass gear (as we always do), and he knows I’m endorsing Eden stuff, and he’s currently endorsing Warwick basses and amps, and I asked him about his bands latest video clip. In it, they have basically a wall of Marshall stacks, with walls of Warwick quadboxes on either side of this central Marshall stack, needless to say, there were quite a few quadies up there! My guess is that were possible around 20 Warwick 411 pro cabs!! Now, knowing for a fact that Eden have one 410 they lend out for big touring acts, and they probably have, maybe 5 or 6 other 410xlt’s at most in their warehouse, AND that they charge for their endorsees to hire out gear, I had to ask Damo ‘where the hell did all those Warwick boxes come from??’ and he says to me ‘they just give them to me!’ and so I’m like ‘no shit!’     So anyway, conversation ensues, and he tells me how good Warwick are to him – for gigs, he’ll usually just give them a call and THEY will DELIVER four quadboxes to whatever venue they’re playing at  - oh no, you don’t have to go and pick them up! And there’s no charge either! Of-course amps and cases included for all…     He also tells me how he gets all his Warwick corvettes for free, and…get ready for this…he told me about a new custom made 5 string he had made in Germany and sent to him! Me: How much? Him: Free. Me. No.     He then says that because him and Joe (bass player from another Australian band, Grinspoon) are the only ‘A’ grade Warwick endorsees in Australia, and he (Damo, not Joe) is the only full bass & amp Warwick user (Joe uses Eden), so they’re *very* nice to him!! And damn straight – free custom made basses! At this point, my jaw is in pain from dropping to the floor so many times. So then he suggests that I should change to Warwick, since they’re really keen on rock bands like 28 Days, or Grinspoon and since don’t have very many A grade endorsing artists at all are kind of, well, ‘looking’ may not be the right word, but you get the idea! And just to almost seal the deal, he says that they’re really keen about getting a 6 string player on board! So I was just like ‘ohmygodwheredoisign’! So he said to check them out, give them a call, since he got his endorsement to A grade even before their band got big!     The only catch (and hardly a catch) is that I’m kind of endorsing Eden, and I say kind of because I never actually signed a contract – when I headed down to make my first discounted purchase, they hadn’t had a contract ready, but of-course being the gentlemen they were, still let me take some gear for a nice price, and to this day, I still haven’t signed anything (even if I did, the contract would be about a year, which is another 3 or 4 months)! Although of-course, you could say it was a verbal agreement, or that the discounted sale can be interpreted as signing a contract…but as if we’ll ever go to court on this. Besides, I’m in no hurry, I have a nice Eden rig, and a nice bass….however, I actually have been wanting a more ‘replaceable’ bass (like, for example a Warwick!), since I’d be terrified if anything happened to my 2nd hand found-by-freak-chance Tune 6 string! And free custom made basses….!!! :-D:-D     He also said he was about to receive one of the new Warwick electric uprights…..! — Kristoff Lajoie Electric Bassist www.kristoff.4t.com www.brockdowney.com

Response:

Hi Kristoff, Just read the post, and yep it’s a story that does lead to some questions.. How does anyone, who hasn’t made it big time.. actually get to be an endorser?  Seems to me that while doing shows and concerts generates lots of PR for both the artist and brand name, there seems to be a chicken and egg situation.. do you identify yourself to the manufacturers? offer a proposal, or is it getting in front of them and struttin your stuff? Danny       I don’t know if this post is a question, or a story, or a proposition, or what it is…well, anyway, here it goes, make of it what you will, but it made me very excited in all the wrong ways….       So last night my band was headlining a gig at a pretty cool venue (for those of you playing at home, it was The Gershwin room at The Espy, St. Kilda), and so a friend of mine, Damo who’s the bass player in Australian band ‘28 Days’ (you may, or may not have heard of them, but they’re doing kinda well) came down and after the show we were talking about bass gear (as we always do), and he knows I’m endorsing Eden stuff, and he’s currently endorsing Warwick basses and amps, and I asked him about his bands latest video clip. In it, they have basically a wall of Marshall stacks, with walls of Warwick quadboxes on either side of this central Marshall stack, needless to say, there were quite a few quadies up there! My guess is that were possible around 20 Warwick 411 pro cabs!! Now, knowing for a fact that Eden have one 410 they lend out for big touring acts, and they probably have, maybe 5 or 6 other 410xlt’s at most in their warehouse, AND that they charge for their endorsees to hire out gear, I had to ask Damo ‘where the hell did all those Warwick boxes come from??’ and he says to me ‘they just give them to me!’ and so I’m like ‘no shit!’       So anyway, conversation ensues, and he tells me how good Warwick are to him – for gigs, he’ll usually just give them a call and THEY will DELIVER four quadboxes to whatever venue they’re playing at  - oh no, you don’t have to go and pick them up! And there’s no charge either! Of-course amps and cases included for all…       He also tells me how he gets all his Warwick corvettes for free, and…get ready for this…he told me about a new custom made 5 string he had made in Germany and sent to him!   Me: How much?   Him: Free.   Me. No.       He then says that because him and Joe (bass player from another Australian band, Grinspoon) are the only ‘A’ grade Warwick endorsees in Australia, and he (Damo, not Joe) is the only full bass & amp Warwick user (Joe uses Eden), so they’re *very* nice to him!! And damn straight – free custom made basses! At this point, my jaw is in pain from dropping to the floor so many times. So then he suggests that I should change to Warwick, since they’re really keen on rock bands like 28 Days, or Grinspoon and since don’t have very many A grade endorsing artists at all are kind of, well, ‘looking’ may not be the right word, but you get the idea! And just to almost seal the deal, he says that they’re really keen about getting a 6 string player on board! So I was just like ‘ohmygodwheredoisign’! So he said to check them out, give them a call, since he got his endorsement to A grade even before their band got big!       The only catch (and hardly a catch) is that I’m kind of endorsing Eden, and I say kind of because I never actually signed a contract – when I headed down to make my first discounted purchase, they hadn’t had a contract ready, but of-course being the gentlemen they were, still let me take some gear for a nice price, and to this day, I still haven’t signed anything (even if I did, the contract would be about a year, which is another 3 or 4 months)! Although of-course, you could say it was a verbal agreement, or that the discounted sale can be interpreted as signing a contract…but as if we’ll ever go to court on this. Besides, I’m in no hurry, I have a nice Eden rig, and a nice bass….however, I actually have been wanting a more ‘replaceable’ bass (like, for example a Warwick!), since I’d be terrified if anything happened to my 2nd hand found-by-freak-chance Tune 6 string! And free custom made basses….!!! :-D:-D       He also said he was about to receive one of the new Warwick electric uprights…..!   —   Kristoff Lajoie   Electric Bassist   www.kristoff.4t.com   www.brockdowney.com

Response:

      I don’t know if this post is a question, or a story, or a proposition, or what it is…well, anyway, here it goes, make of it what you will, but it made me very excited in all the wrong ways….       So last night my band was headlining a gig at a pretty cool venue (for those of you playing at home, it was The Gershwin room at The Espy, St. Kilda), and so a friend of mine, Damo who’s the bass player in Australian band ‘28 Days’ (you may, or may not have heard of them, but they’re doing kinda well) came down and after the show we were talking about bass gear (as we always do), and he knows I’m endorsing Eden stuff, and he’s currently endorsing Warwick basses and amps, and I asked him about his bands latest video clip. In it, they have basically a wall of Marshall stacks, with walls of Warwick quadboxes on either side of this central Marshall stack, needless to say, there were quite a few quadies up there! My guess is that were possible around 20 Warwick 411 pro cabs!! Now, knowing for a fact that Eden have one 410 they lend out for big touring acts, and they probably have, maybe 5 or 6 other 410xlt’s at most in their warehouse, AND that they charge for their endorsees to hire out gear, I had to ask Damo ‘where the hell did all those Warwick boxes come from??’ and he says to me ‘they just give them to me!’ and so I’m like ‘no shit!’       So anyway, conversation ensues, and he tells me how good Warwick are to him – for gigs, he’ll usually just give them a call and THEY will DELIVER four quadboxes to whatever venue they’re playing at  - oh no, you don’t have to go and pick them up! And there’s no charge either! Of-course amps and cases included for all…       He also tells me how he gets all his Warwick corvettes for free, and…get ready for this…he told me about a new custom made 5 string he had made in Germany and sent to him!   Me: How much?   Him: Free.   Me. No.       He then says that because him and Joe (bass player from another Australian band, Grinspoon) are the only ‘A’ grade Warwick endorsees in Australia, and he (Damo, not Joe) is the only full bass & amp Warwick user (Joe uses Eden), so they’re *very* nice to him!! And damn straight – free custom made basses! At this point, my jaw is in pain from dropping to the floor so many times. So then he suggests that I should change to Warwick, since they’re really keen on rock bands like 28 Days, or Grinspoon and since don’t have very many A grade endorsing artists at all are kind of, well, ‘looking’ may not be the right word, but you get the idea! And just to almost seal the deal, he says that they’re really keen about getting a 6 string player on board! So I was just like ‘ohmygodwheredoisign’! So he said to check them out, give them a call, since he got his endorsement to A grade even before their band got big!       The only catch (and hardly a catch) is that I’m kind of endorsing Eden, and I say kind of because I never actually signed a contract – when I headed down to make my first discounted purchase, they hadn’t had a contract ready, but of-course being the gentlemen they were, still let me take some gear for a nice price, and to this day, I still haven’t signed anything (even if I did, the contract would be about a year, which is another 3 or 4 months)! Although of-course, you could say it was a verbal agreement, or that the discounted sale can be interpreted as signing a contract…but as if we’ll ever go to court on this. Besides, I’m in no hurry, I have a nice Eden rig, and a nice bass….however, I actually have been wanting a more ‘replaceable’ bass (like, for example a Warwick!), since I’d be terrified if anything happened to my 2nd hand found-by-freak-chance Tune 6 string! And free custom made basses….!!! :-D:-D       He also said he was about to receive one of the new Warwick electric uprights…..!   Anyone offering me an endorsement contract without free equipment, lots of pampering and some cash would discover that I would not be very cooperative. If I ,am good enough to place under contract, I am good enough to pay. This arrangement of obtaining discounts on gear, discounts that do not cost the company a penny, is not something that I would participate in.   In my younger days, the idea of having any manufacturer pay attention to me/my band would have been extremely flattering. Even the offering of an equipment discount would have boosted my/our egos tremendously, but, truthfully, it is bad business. Such companies are cheating musicians of their worth. Legally, of course, but it sets a bad precedent.   If Warwick is forthright enough to treat musicians well and to actually spend some of their own money on pampering musicians, I tip my hat to them. I would even be tempted, hypothetically now, to use their equipment over someone elses equipment even if it did not quite measure up to the cheapskates equipment. After all, anyone can make perfect music in their bedroom/studio. The real reason that you and your bandmates are playing out is for recognition and the accumulation of wealth, i.e., business. Giving away the milk removes the incentive for anyone to buy or lease the cow.   But that is just me and my old-fangled ideas on how business should be done.   Me, I’d jump ship, if the opportunity were to arise. Of course, if the original manufacturer saw the light and offered me a better deal, I’d jump right back. Forget this nonsense about "selling out". It still beats working for a living. 8>)   Ed Cregger

Response:

Well… Do you like Warwick basses ? That’s the first question. I’m only speaking for me here, but here’s My Opinion (r) If I were famous and had a proposition from (anybrand) like you describe, I’d say "Non, merci." If it was to come from Spector, I’d pee in my pants. I have a Spector and I’m happy with it. In your case, I’d try to have an endorsment by Tune, if you love their gear. Just my $0,02. — Henry! — "Pleasure in a thing of beauty is the essence of a good life." Zino Davidoff       I don’t know if this post is a question, or a story, or a proposition, or what it is…well, anyway, here it goes, make of it what you will, but it made me very excited in all the wrong ways….       So last night my band was headlining a gig at a pretty cool venue (for those of you playing at home, it was The Gershwin room at The Espy, St. Kilda), and so a friend of mine, Damo who’s the bass player in Australian band ‘28 Days’ (you may, or may not have heard of them, but they’re doing kinda well) came down and after the show we were talking about bass gear (as we always do), and he knows I’m endorsing Eden stuff, and he’s currently endorsing Warwick basses and amps, and I asked him about his bands latest video clip. In it, they have basically a wall of Marshall stacks, with walls of Warwick quadboxes on either side of this central Marshall stack, needless to say, there were quite a few quadies up there! My guess is that were possible around 20 Warwick 411 pro cabs!! Now, knowing for a fact that Eden have one 410 they lend out for big touring acts, and they probably have, maybe 5 or 6 other 410xlt’s at most in their warehouse, AND that they charge for their endorsees to hire out gear, I had to ask Damo ‘where the hell did all those Warwick boxes come from??’ and he says to me ‘they just give them to me!’ and so I’m like ‘no shit!’       So anyway, conversation ensues, and he tells me how good Warwick are to him – for gigs, he’ll usually just give them a call and THEY will DELIVER four quadboxes to whatever venue they’re playing at  - oh no, you don’t have to go and pick them up! And there’s no charge either! Of-course amps and cases included for all…       He also tells me how he gets all his Warwick corvettes for free, and…get ready for this…he told me about a new custom made 5 string he had made in Germany and sent to him!   Me: How much?   Him: Free.   Me. No.       He then says that because him and Joe (bass player from another Australian band, Grinspoon) are the only ‘A’ grade Warwick endorsees in Australia, and he (Damo, not Joe) is the only full bass & amp Warwick user (Joe uses Eden), so they’re *very* nice to him!! And damn straight – free custom made basses! At this point, my jaw is in pain from dropping to the floor so many times. So then he suggests that I should change to Warwick, since they’re really keen on rock bands like 28 Days, or Grinspoon and since don’t have very many A grade endorsing artists at all are kind of, well, ‘looking’ may not be the right word, but you get the idea! And just to almost seal the deal, he says that they’re really keen about getting a 6 string player on board! So I was just like ‘ohmygodwheredoisign’! So he said to check them out, give them a call, since he got his endorsement to A grade even before their band got big!       The only catch (and hardly a catch) is that I’m kind of endorsing Eden, and I say kind of because I never actually signed a contract – when I headed down to make my first discounted purchase, they hadn’t had a contract ready, but of-course being the gentlemen they were, still let me take some gear for a nice price, and to this day, I still haven’t signed anything (even if I did, the contract would be about a year, which is another 3 or 4 months)! Although of-course, you could say it was a verbal agreement, or that the discounted sale can be interpreted as signing a contract…but as if we’ll ever go to court on this. Besides, I’m in no hurry, I have a nice Eden rig, and a nice bass….however, I actually have been wanting a more ‘replaceable’ bass (like, for example a Warwick!), since I’d be terrified if anything happened to my 2nd hand found-by-freak-chance Tune 6 string! And free custom made basses….!!! :-D:-D       He also said he was about to receive one of the new Warwick electric uprights…..!   —   Kristoff Lajoie   Electric Bassist   www.kristoff.4t.com   www.brockdowney.com

Response:

Hey Kris, give me a buzz, I can pass the numbers onto you for the guys who do Warwick. But IMHO stick with the Eden. I’ve been searching for a new speaker box and done an AB with the eden and warwicks. The Eden s**ts on the warwick for sound! If you really want you can grab my rig to try when I get a new box. I’m going to try and sell it anyway. I had more to say, but forgot… call me …oh, one thing, have you tried the Lab Systems? They’re Aussie made amps and boxes and the cabs sound similar to the Edens…. Scott       I don’t know if this post is a question, or a story, or a proposition, or what it is…well, anyway, here it goes, make of it what you will, but it made me very excited in all the wrong ways….       So last night my band was headlining a gig at a pretty cool venue (for those of you playing at home, it was The Gershwin room at The Espy, St. Kilda), and so a friend of mine, Damo who’s the bass player in Australian band ‘28 Days’ (you may, or may not have heard of them, but they’re doing kinda well) came down and after the show we were talking about bass gear (as we always do), and he knows I’m endorsing Eden stuff, and he’s currently endorsing Warwick basses and amps, and I asked him about his bands latest video clip. In it, they have basically a wall of Marshall stacks, with walls of Warwick quadboxes on either side of this central Marshall stack, needless to say, there were quite a few quadies up there! My guess is that were possible around 20 Warwick 411 pro cabs!! Now, knowing for a fact that Eden have one 410 they lend out for big touring acts, and they probably have, maybe 5 or 6 other 410xlt’s at most in their warehouse, AND that they charge for their endorsees to hire out gear, I had to ask Damo ‘where the hell did all those Warwick boxes come from??’ and he says to me ‘they just give them to me!’ and so I’m like ‘no shit!’       So anyway, conversation ensues, and he tells me how good Warwick are to him – for gigs, he’ll usually just give them a call and THEY will DELIVER four quadboxes to whatever venue they’re playing at  - oh no, you don’t have to go and pick them up! And there’s no charge either! Of-course amps and cases included for all…       He also tells me how he gets all his Warwick corvettes for free, and…get ready for this…he told me about a new custom made 5 string he had made in Germany and sent to him!   Me: How much?   Him: Free.   Me. No.       He then says that because him and Joe (bass player from another Australian band, Grinspoon) are the only ‘A’ grade Warwick endorsees in Australia, and he (Damo, not Joe) is the only full bass & amp Warwick user (Joe uses Eden), so they’re *very* nice to him!! And damn straight – free custom made basses! At this point, my jaw is in pain from dropping to the floor so many times. So then he suggests that I should change to Warwick, since they’re really keen on rock bands like 28 Days, or Grinspoon and since don’t have very many A grade endorsing artists at all are kind of, well, ‘looking’ may not be the right word, but you get the idea! And just to almost seal the deal, he says that they’re really keen about getting a 6 string player on board! So I was just like ‘ohmygodwheredoisign’! So he said to check them out, give them a call, since he got his endorsement to A grade even before their band got big!       The only catch (and hardly a catch) is that I’m kind of endorsing Eden, and I say kind of because I never actually signed a contract – when I headed down to make my first discounted purchase, they hadn’t had a contract ready, but of-course being the gentlemen they were, still let me take some gear for a nice price, and to this day, I still haven’t signed anything (even if I did, the contract would be about a year, which is another 3 or 4 months)! Although of-course, you could say it was a verbal agreement, or that the discounted sale can be interpreted as signing a contract…but as if we’ll ever go to court on this. Besides, I’m in no hurry, I have a nice Eden rig, and a nice bass….however, I actually have been wanting a more ‘replaceable’ bass (like, for example a Warwick!), since I’d be terrified if anything happened to my 2nd hand found-by-freak-chance Tune 6 string! And free custom made basses….!!! :-D:-D       He also said he was about to receive one of the new Warwick electric uprights…..!   —   Kristoff Lajoie   Electric Bassist   www.kristoff.4t.com   www.brockdowney.com

Response:

Of-course, I feel bad leaving Eden in such a hurry, besides I’ve already invested in such a nice setup! I’m in no hurry to receive free custom made basses yet, I just don’t feel….worthy! Besides, I can’t think of a way to write ‘hey, I heard you gave this guy some free stuff, and I want some free stuff to, so can you give me some? And I don’t want a discount, just free stuff – if I have to pay, I’m not interested!’ — Kristoff Lajoie Electric Bassist www.kristoff.4t.com www.brockdowney.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> <snip> > It is a legal and ethical dilemma. > The legal part is simple: does the municipality of Australia you are > in recognize oral agreements in these situations. My area (Akron, OH) > does. Of course, then there is the ethical dilemma: do you want to be > known as someone who is a front-runner, etc. and whose word is not his > bond? > I have done a lot of things, but I make sure that no one can walk > around town and say I shafted them in business. > Plus, you posted here for the world to see. You are stuck with Eden, > unless you want a tainted rep.

Response:

> <snip> > It is a legal and ethical dilemma. > The legal part is simple: does the municipality of Australia you are > in recognize oral agreements in these situations. My area (Akron, OH) > does. Of course, then there is the ethical dilemma: do you want to be > known as someone who is a front-runner, etc. and whose word is not his > bond? > I have done a lot of things, but I make sure that no one can walk > around town and say I shafted them in business. > Plus, you posted here for the world to see. You are stuck with Eden, > unless you want a tainted rep.

It is all about money with the studios. It is all about money with the distributors. It is all about money with the manufacturers, but as soon as someone tries to look out for himself, the musician, it suddenly becomes an ethical issue? Whatever happened to the old business ethos of, "The highest bidder wins"? I am not suggesting breaking binding written contracts, but from his description, that does not exist. I am not suggesting the breaking of an oral contract that costs the manufacturer money other than potential profits. Profits they earn without paying the band in real terms. Terminating an oral contract that offers a musician/band a discount on musical equipment, equipment that they sell to retailers at probably the same price or less than what they will sell to the band, is not really breaking a contract of merit, IMO. Who suffered a loss upon its termination? No one. The manufacturer might suffer a loss of anticipated revenues because the deal screwing the musicians out of their services was terminated. That really makes my heart bleed. Ed Cregger

Response:

> Of-course, I feel bad leaving Eden in such a hurry, besides I’ve already > invested in such a nice setup! I’m in no hurry to receive free custom made > basses yet, I just don’t feel….worthy!

My lead guitarist brother and I felt the same way. We spent hours fighting about the band’s future and its direction. I am not shy. I am not hesitant to strive for more. While being one of the best guitarists (bass too) that I have ever heard play, he had this overwhelming sense of humility that manifested itself just as you have described. Ever heard of an ass-kicking rock band named Mudcat from the seventies? No? Well, now you know why. Get some therapy and lose that attitude! 8>) Ed Cregger – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Besides, I can’t think of a way to write ‘hey, I heard you gave this guy > some free stuff, and I want some free stuff to, so can you give me some? > And > I don’t want a discount, just free stuff – if I have to pay, I’m not > interested!’ > — > Kristoff Lajoie > Electric Bassist > www.kristoff.4t.com > www.brockdowney.com > <snip> > It is a legal and ethical dilemma. > The legal part is simple: does the municipality of Australia you are > in recognize oral agreements in these situations. My area (Akron, OH) > does. Of course, then there is the ethical dilemma: do you want to be > known as someone who is a front-runner, etc. and whose word is not his > bond? > I have done a lot of things, but I make sure that no one can walk > around town and say I shafted them in business. > Plus, you posted here for the world to see. You are stuck with Eden, > unless you want a tainted rep.

Response:

<snip> It is a legal and ethical dilemma. The legal part is simple: does the municipality of Australia you are in recognize oral agreements in these situations. My area (Akron, OH) does. Of course, then there is the ethical dilemma: do you want to be known as someone who is a front-runner, etc. and whose word is not his bond? I have done a lot of things, but I make sure that no one can walk around town and say I shafted them in business. Plus, you posted here for the world to see. You are stuck with Eden, unless you want a tainted rep.

Response:

From my experience, it seems people usually offer a proposal as in an artist will write an email to the distributor saying ‘hi, I’m me, I’m playing in this band, we have this/these release/s we’re playing these gigs with this many people this often’, and then, well it’s all up to the distributor! — Kristoff Lajoie Electric Bassist www.kristoff.4t.com www.brockdowney.com   Hi Kristoff,   Just read the post, and yep it’s a story that does lead to some questions..   How does anyone, who hasn’t made it big time.. actually get to be an endorser?  Seems to me that while doing shows and concerts generates lots of PR for both the artist and brand name, there seems to be a chicken and egg situation..   do you identify yourself to the manufacturers? offer a proposal, or is it getting in front of them and struttin your stuff?   Danny         I don’t know if this post is a question, or a story, or a proposition, or what it is…well, anyway, here it goes, make of it what you will, but it made me very excited in all the wrong ways….         So last night my band was headlining a gig at a pretty cool venue (for those of you playing at home, it was The Gershwin room at The Espy, St. Kilda), and so a friend of mine, Damo who’s the bass player in Australian band ‘28 Days’ (you may, or may not have heard of them, but they’re doing kinda well) came down and after the show we were talking about bass gear (as we always do), and he knows I’m endorsing Eden stuff, and he’s currently endorsing Warwick basses and amps, and I asked him about his bands latest video clip. In it, they have basically a wall of Marshall stacks, with walls of Warwick quadboxes on either side of this central Marshall stack, needless to say, there were quite a few quadies up there! My guess is that were possible around 20 Warwick 411 pro cabs!! Now, knowing for a fact that Eden have one 410 they lend out for big touring acts, and they probably have, maybe 5 or 6 other 410xlt’s at most in their warehouse, AND that they charge for their endorsees to hire out gear, I had to ask Damo ‘where the hell did all those Warwick boxes come from??’ and he says to me ‘they just give them to me!’ and so I’m like ‘no shit!’         So anyway, conversation ensues, and he tells me how good Warwick are to him – for gigs, he’ll usually just give them a call and THEY will DELIVER four quadboxes to whatever venue they’re playing at  - oh no, you don’t have to go and pick them up! And there’s no charge either! Of-course amps and cases included for all…         He also tells me how he gets all his Warwick corvettes for free, and…get ready for this…he told me about a new custom made 5 string he had made in Germany and sent to him!     Me: How much?     Him: Free.     Me. No.         He then says that because him and Joe (bass player from another Australian band, Grinspoon) are the only ‘A’ grade Warwick endorsees in Australia, and he (Damo, not Joe) is the only full bass & amp Warwick user (Joe uses Eden), so they’re *very* nice to him!! And damn straight – free custom made basses! At this point, my jaw is in pain from dropping to the floor so many times. So then he suggests that I should change to Warwick, since they’re really keen on rock bands like 28 Days, or Grinspoon and since don’t have very many A grade endorsing artists at all are kind of, well, ‘looking’ may not be the right word, but you get the idea! And just to almost seal the deal, he says that they’re really keen about getting a 6 string player on board! So I was just like ‘ohmygodwheredoisign’! So he said to check them out, give them a call, since he got his endorsement to A grade even before their band got big!         The only catch (and hardly a catch) is that I’m kind of endorsing Eden, and I say kind of because I never actually signed a contract – when I headed down to make my first discounted purchase, they hadn’t had a contract ready, but of-course being the gentlemen they were, still let me take some gear for a nice price, and to this day, I still haven’t signed anything (even if I did, the contract would be about a year, which is another 3 or 4 months)! Although of-course, you could say it was a verbal agreement, or that the discounted sale can be interpreted as signing a contract…but as if we’ll ever go to court on this. Besides, I’m in no hurry, I have a nice Eden rig, and a nice bass….however, I actually have been wanting a more ‘replaceable’ bass (like, for example a Warwick!), since I’d be terrified if anything happened to my 2nd hand found-by-freak-chance Tune 6 string! And free custom made basses….!!! :-D:-D         He also said he was about to receive one of the new Warwick electric uprights…..!     —     Kristoff Lajoie     Electric Bassist     www.kristoff.4t.com     www.brockdowney.com

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Question:

I am new to alternate energy for homes looking to learn. Is the following book any good? Power With Nature: Solar and Wind Energy Demystified Does anyone recommend any other books for a beginner. I have a background in computer engineering so technical books are good for me too even though I am new to the field. Thanks.

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>I am new to alternate energy for homes looking to learn. Is the following >book any good? >Power With Nature: Solar and Wind Energy Demystified >Does anyone recommend any other books for a beginner. I have a background in >computer engineering so technical books are good for me too even though I am >new to the field. >Thanks.

There’s a staggering amount of information available on the web about solar and wind energy, so there’s no need to buy a book unless you prefer paper over a monitor. Below are some links to web sites. You might give each a quick look, and then tell us what else you’d like to see. From those comments we can point you to additional sources. solar faq http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/energy/pv_faq.html wind faq http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen/FAQ_TOC.htm wind turbine manufacturer’s faq http://www.windenergy.com/SUPPORT/faq.html Home Power Magazine – current issue is a free download, back issues available with scads of example systems http://www.homepower.com/ Home Power Magazine’s basic education section http://www.homepower.com/education/components.cfm One supplier’s section on basic education including many additional tech doc downloads http://www.windsun.com/Library_Index.htm Another supplier’s basic education section and faq http://www.sunelco.com/classroom.aspx Independant, comprehensive site with encyclopedia http://www.green-trust.org Independant site, massive amount of DIY info on solar tracking and much more http://www.redrok.com/main.htm National Renewable Energy Lab, research http://www.nrel.gov/ A program to model your specific system http://www.nrel.gov/homer/ Wayne

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Thanks for the links. But even though I work in computer imdustry I still prefer books over monitors. I like to carry them when I go backpacking or hiking for a good read. I will try the websites though in the mean time, maybe I’ll just print them out : ).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I am new to alternate energy for homes looking to learn. Is the following >book any good? >Power With Nature: Solar and Wind Energy Demystified >Does anyone recommend any other books for a beginner. I have a background in >computer engineering so technical books are good for me too even though I am >new to the field. >Thanks. > There’s a staggering amount of information available on the web about > solar and wind energy, so there’s no need to buy a book unless you > prefer paper over a monitor. Below are some links to web sites. You > might give each a quick look, and then tell us what else you’d like to > see. From those comments we can point you to additional sources. > solar faq > http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/energy/pv_faq.html > wind faq > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen/FAQ_TOC.htm > wind turbine manufacturer’s faq > http://www.windenergy.com/SUPPORT/faq.html > Home Power Magazine – current issue is a free download, back issues > available with scads of example systems > http://www.homepower.com/ > Home Power Magazine’s basic education section > http://www.homepower.com/education/components.cfm > One supplier’s section on basic education including many additional > tech doc downloads > http://www.windsun.com/Library_Index.htm > Another supplier’s basic education section and faq > http://www.sunelco.com/classroom.aspx > Independant, comprehensive site with encyclopedia > http://www.green-trust.org > Independant site, massive amount of DIY info on solar tracking and > much more > http://www.redrok.com/main.htm > National Renewable Energy Lab, research > http://www.nrel.gov/ > A program to model your specific system > http://www.nrel.gov/homer/ > Wayne

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>Thanks for the links. But even though I work in computer imdustry I still >prefer books over monitors. I like to carry them when I go backpacking or >hiking for a good read. I will try the websites though in the mean time, >maybe I’ll just print them out : ).

http://tinyurl.com/3o5l7  :-) More seriously… have you thought of a pocket pc pre-loaded with site content? I was amazed at how well they work with Ebooks. Wayne

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>Thanks for the links. But even though I work in computer imdustry I still >prefer books over monitors. I like to carry them when I go backpacking or >hiking for a good read. I will try the websites though in the mean time, >maybe I’ll just print them out : ). > http://tinyurl.com/3o5l7  :-) > More seriously… have you thought of a pocket pc pre-loaded with site > content? I was amazed at how well they work with Ebooks. > Wayne

I have a new IPAQ  pocket PC. The higher model that I haven’t started using yet. I’ll give the EBook a shot. Thx.

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>Thanks for the links. But even though I work in computer imdustry I still >prefer books over monitors. I like to carry them when I go backpacking or >hiking for a good read. I will try the websites though in the mean time, >maybe I’ll just print them out : ).

You might print mine… just over 3000 pages http://www.ece.villanova.edu/~nick Nick

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>>Thanks for the links. But even though I work in computer imdustry I still >prefer books over monitors. I like to carry them when I go backpacking or >hiking for a good read. I will try the websites though in the mean time, >maybe I’ll just print them out : ). >You might print mine… just over 3000 pages >http://www.ece.villanova.edu/~nick >Nick

Highly recommended. Should format easily to fit onto a small screen if one wanted to save ink. A read that could easily last for the duration of a long hike, even if it was a winter trek over the Donner Pass. As a bonus, it contains valuable lessons for cargo-cult authors, such as the importance of putting reason ahead of faith, and the value of having more pages than chapters.   Wayne

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www.sandia.gov/pv These are mainly technical documents on PV systems and components. You can order the doucments for free as well as download them. cheers – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I am new to alternate energy for homes looking to learn. Is the following > book any good? > Power With Nature: Solar and Wind Energy Demystified > Does anyone recommend any other books for a beginner. I have a background in > computer engineering so technical books are good for me too even though I am > new to the field. > Thanks.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Thanks for the links. But even though I work in computer imdustry I still > >prefer books over monitors. I like to carry them when I go backpacking or > >hiking for a good read. I will try the websites though in the mean time, > >maybe I’ll just print them out : ). > http://tinyurl.com/3o5l7  :-) > More seriously… have you thought of a pocket pc pre-loaded with site > content? I was amazed at how well they work with Ebooks. > Wayne > I have a new IPAQ  pocket PC. The higher model that I haven’t started using > yet. I’ll give the EBook a shot. > Thx.

My book is a pdf document. Should work just fine for what you want. Beats the hell out of sifting through thousands of pages just to get the same info. It is also print friendly. George Ghio Solar Power Consultant

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Who did you plagiarize this time, George?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My book is a pdf document. Should work just fine for what you want. > Beats the hell out of sifting through thousands of pages just to get the > same info. It is also print friendly. > George Ghio > Solar Power Consultant

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> Who did you plagiarize this time, George? > My book is a pdf document. Should work just fine for what you want. > Beats the hell out of sifting through thousands of pages just to get the > same info. It is also print friendly. > George Ghio > Solar Power Consultant

You lie almost as badly as Wayne.

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I’m sorry, where did I lie? I just asked a question…… — Steve Spence http://www.green-trust.org

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Who did you plagiarize this time, George? > > My book is a pdf document. Should work just fine for what you want. > > Beats the hell out of sifting through thousands of pages just to get the > > same info. It is also print friendly. > > George Ghio > > Solar Power Consultant > You lie almost as badly as Wayne.

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> I’m sorry, where did I lie? I just asked a question……

OK implied lie. Same thing. I have never plagiarized anybodys work. When did you stop beating your wife. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Steve Spence > http://www.green-trust.org > > Who did you plagiarize this time, George? > > > My book is a pdf document. Should work just fine for what you want. > > > Beats the hell out of sifting through thousands of pages just to get > the > > > same info. It is also print friendly. > > > George Ghio > > > Solar Power Consultant > You lie almost as badly as Wayne.

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Don’t shoot the messanger – I have not read it carefully http://www.nofrillsinfo.bigpondhosting.com/Index.htm http://www.nofrillsinfo.bigpondhosting.com/Solar.HTM PDF File http://www.nofrillsinfo.bigpondhosting.com/Solar.PDF

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I am new to alternate energy for homes looking to learn. Is the following > book any good? > Power With Nature: Solar and Wind Energy Demystified > Does anyone recommend any other books for a beginner. I have a background > in > computer engineering so technical books are good for me too even though I > am > new to the field. > Thanks.

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>My book is a pdf document. Should work just fine for what you want.

Whatdya’ know, with the hundreds of books and web sites available, once again George (and only George) claims that *his* book happens to be exactly what the guy needs. Wonders never cease. >Beats the hell out of sifting through thousands of pages just to get the >same info.

The *same* info? LMAO  Yeah, that’s the Internet for you…. the same 70 pages repeated over and over. And why would the guy want any of that other stuff (like tracking info) that you’ve already decided he doesn’t need. > It is also print friendly.

A "book" that needs printing… interesting concept. You might have devoted the time instead to making it reviewer friendly. Wayne

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Ah, but you lied when claimed I plagiarized your work. Since you claim your info is the same as found elsewhere, I assumed you were either lying, or plagiarizing, again. — Steve Spence http://www.green-trust.org

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m sorry, where did I lie? I just asked a question…… > OK implied lie. Same thing. I have never plagiarized anybodys work. > When did you stop beating your wife. > — > Steve Spence > http://www.green-trust.org > > > Who did you plagiarize this time, George? > > > > My book is a pdf document. Should work just fine for what you want. > > > > Beats the hell out of sifting through thousands of pages just to get > the > > > > same info. It is also print friendly. > > > > George Ghio > > > > Solar Power Consultant > > You lie almost as badly as Wayne.

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Let’s tell the truth. I SAID that the SS was a very poor job of reverse engineering of a good, simple ss. Plagiarizing was not mentioned(except by you). Poor work was. The SS I give out (Free) was the basis for the one in question. I wrote the SS on my first computer. 10 years ago. IF someone wants to use it or copy it, put it on a site that is fine by me. IF they turn it into a dogs breakfast I will say so. The copy linked to your site is/was a dogs breakfast. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ah, but you lied when claimed I plagiarized your work. Since you claim your > info is the same as found elsewhere, I assumed you were either lying, or > plagiarizing, again. > — > Steve Spence > http://www.green-trust.org > > I’m sorry, where did I lie? I just asked a question…… > OK implied lie. Same thing. I have never plagiarized anybodys work. > When did you stop beating your wife. > > — > > Steve Spence > > http://www.green-trust.org > > > > Who did you plagiarize this time, George? > > > > > My book is a pdf document. Should work just fine for what you > want. > > > > > Beats the hell out of sifting through thousands of pages just to > get > > the > > > > > same info. It is also print friendly. > > > > > George Ghio > > > > > Solar Power Consultant > > > You lie almost as badly as Wayne.

Response:

>Let’s tell the truth.

Good idea, let’s see how it works… >I SAID that the SS was a very poor job of reverse engineering of a good, >simple ss.

That is what you said, but it was just your paranoid opinion. The truth is that despite quite a lot of "writing", you weren’t able to convince a single reader that your opinion was valid (same-old same-old). At that point an intelligent person would allow for the possibility that his opinion was wrong, and either apologize or at least shut up. Repeating the claim only reinforces your rep as the lone twit. Here’s an idea for you – take the energy you waste on thinking up crap, and put it into a part time job instead. Use the income from that to hire someone to proof read your posts for blunders. Wayne

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Let’s tell the truth. > Good idea, let’s see how it works… >I SAID that the SS was a very poor job of reverse engineering of a good, >simple ss. > That is what you said, but it was just your paranoid opinion. The > truth is that despite quite a lot of "writing", you weren’t able to > convince a single reader that your opinion was valid (same-old > same-old). At that point an intelligent person would allow for the > possibility that his opinion was wrong, and either apologize or at > least shut up. Repeating the claim only reinforces your rep as the > lone twit. Here’s an idea for you – take the energy you waste on > thinking up crap, and put it into a part time job instead. Use the > income from that to hire someone to proof read your posts for > blunders. > Wayne

Funny how it all went very quiet when I put both spreadsheets up together. The real giveaway was the temp. conversion chart. When you can document your system then you can have an opinion. Trouble is that if you document your system it will match my analyses of it. Rock and a hard place. Eh. I suggest you avoid the following subjects: Solar Power Wind towers Hydraulics Welding Fenceing (with swords) Building Concrete

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>Funny how it all went very quiet when I put both spreadsheets up >together.

If you’d persuaded anyone, they’d have said so. Maybe you believe you’re enough of a jerk that no one would ever admit agreeing with you? Can’t imagine why you’d think such a thing! >I suggest you avoid the following subjects: >Solar Power >Wind towers >Hydraulics >Welding >Fenceing (with swords) >Building >Concrete

And I suggest you avoid any and all opportunities to prove you’re not a BS artist. Oh wait, that’s what you’ve been doing…. BTW, I loved the mention of "fenceing". Helps to understand the workings of the Ghinius mind. So now you’re the Zorro of Usenet as well?  LOL  Calling Dr. Freud!  Although, considering your spelling blunders, perhaps you were thinking "the Zero of Usenet"…. Wayne

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Funny how it all went very quiet when I put both spreadsheets up >together. > If you’d persuaded anyone, they’d have said so. Maybe you believe > you’re enough of a jerk that no one would ever admit agreeing with > you? Can’t imagine why you’d think such a thing! >I suggest you avoid the following subjects: >Solar Power >Wind towers >Hydraulics >Welding >Fenceing (with swords) >Building >Concrete > And I suggest you avoid any and all opportunities to prove you’re not > a BS artist. Oh wait, that’s what you’ve been doing…. > BTW, I loved the mention of "fenceing". Helps to understand the > workings of the Ghinius mind. So now you’re the Zorro of Usenet as > well?  LOL  Calling Dr. Freud!  Although, considering your spelling > blunders, perhaps you were thinking "the Zero of Usenet"…. > Wayne

Silver medal Centre State Games. Sorry. You are just a wannabe. Trouble is you wannbe ME. And the job is taken. Now about your system. Still can’t do it can you?

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Enregy from Nature www.rpc.com.au Staring at the Sun My book on cd. Print friendly. Basic solar power for beginners. Includes spreadsheet for sizing. Contents page by request (PDF) If you prefer to go technical there is the textbook ‘Introduction to Renewable Energy from the Swinburne University of Technology. Sorry I do not have the contact details. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I am new to alternate energy for homes looking to learn. Is the following > book any good? > Power With Nature: Solar and Wind Energy Demystified > Does anyone recommend any other books for a beginner. I have a background in > computer engineering so technical books are good for me too even though I am > new to the field. > Thanks.

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><Fenceing (with swords)> >Silver medal Centre State Games. Sorry.

So you found an illogical and inappropriate way to mention a subject that you can’t even spell, yet claim to be an expert at…. again. >Trouble is you wannbe ME. And the job is taken.

That has to be the most revealing thing you’ve ever written. Why would *anyone* want to be you? Those aspiring to be someone else may as well set their sights a little higher than on you, and aim to be Joey Buttafuoco or Wile E. Coyote for instance. Wayne

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -><Fenceing (with swords)> >Silver medal Centre State Games. Sorry. > So you found an illogical and inappropriate way to mention a subject > that you can’t even spell, yet claim to be an expert at…. again. >Trouble is you wannbe ME. And the job is taken. > That has to be the most revealing thing you’ve ever written. Why would > *anyone* want to be you? Those aspiring to be someone else may as well > set their sights a little higher than on you, and aim to be Joey > Buttafuoco or Wile E. Coyote for instance. > Wayne

Wayne wants to be: Solar power designer. Can’t document his own system. Welder. Does not even know which direction to use the mig in. Hydraulic fitter. Has no idea of seals, valves, volumes or safety issues. Desert rat. Has no idea what this is but sounds good in Cusslers books. Spell checker. When ever some one shows Wayne’s failings he attacks their spelling. All his spelling mistakes are the fault of his naughty spell checker. Sorry Wayne, you can’t have my job. You’re just not good enough. And you know and I know that my analyses of your system is correct. And I still have the silver medal for fencing And I still don’t use a spell checker for usenet And you’re still just a wannabe.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Wayne wants to be: >Solar power designer. Can’t document his own system. >Welder. Does not even know which direction to use the mig in. >Hydraulic fitter. Has no idea of seals, valves, volumes or safety issues. >Desert rat. Has no idea what this is but sounds good in Cusslers books. >Spell checker. When ever some one shows Wayne’s failings he attacks >their spelling. All his spelling mistakes are the fault of his naughty >spell checker. >Sorry Wayne, you can’t have my job. You’re just not good enough. >And you know and I know that my analyses of your system is correct. >And I still have the silver medal for fencing >And I still don’t use a spell checker for usenet >And you’re still just a wannabe.

Let’s try again, please read very slowly this time …. *WHY* would anyone want to be you? Wayne

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> That is a TERRIBLE book written by a man who hates dogs. I can’t imagine > anyone on this list recoommending this book. snip

hmm must have drunkman killfiled then Nancy

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That is a TERRIBLE book written by a man who hates dogs. I can’t imagine anyone on this list recoommending this book. At the same time, giving credence to Jerry Howe is just as much folly. Stick around and just watch   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Here’s the book recommended by most of our experts: > "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" , Howell Book House, 1996 > William Koehler

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> Thanks, Nancy. I’ll put down my Bruce Fogle’s ‘Popular Myths for Novices’ > and go out and buy a copy. > Aligata

Hello roo, Here’s the book recommended by most of our experts: "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" , Howell Book House, 1996 William Koehler BARKING, WHINING, HOWLING, YODELING, SCREAMING, AND WAILING The fact that you realize you have such a problem makes it certain you have "reproved" the dog often enough to let him know you were against his sound effects, even though your reproving didn’t quiet them, so we’ll bypass the loudly clapped hands, the cup of water in his face, and the "shame-shames" and start with something more emphatic. We’ll begin with the easiest kind of vocalist to correct: the one that charges gates, fences, doors, and windows, barking furiously at familiar or imaginary people and objects. A few clusters of BBs from a good slingshot, in conjunction with the light line and plenty of temptations, will cause such a dog to use his mind rather than his mouth. But you won’t make the permanent impression unless you supply dozens of opportunities for him to exercise the control he thus acquires. Make sure these opportunities don’t always come at the same time of the day, else he may learn to observe the "quiet hour" and pursue his old routines at other times. With the help of the light line, it will be easy to follow the BBs with a long down to make sure he gets the most from his lesson. As was mentioned before, eliminating the senseless barking will not lessen the dog’s value as a  watchdog but rather, as he grows more discriminating, increase it. The dog who vocalizes in bratty protest or lonesomeness because you’re gone constitutes a different problem. If it is impractical for someone to stay with him constantly (there are owners who cater to neurosis by employing dog sitters), you’ll have to heed the neighbors and the law and quiet the dog. This calls for a little ingenuity as well as a heavy hand. Attach a line to your dog’s collar, so your corrective effort doesn’t turn into a footrace around the house until you reach a stalemate under the bed. This use of the line in the correction will also serve to establish it as a reminder to be quiet as the dog drags it around when you’re not present. Next, equip yourself with a man’s leather belt or a strap heavy enough to give your particular dog a good tanning. Yup-we’re going to strike him. Real hard. Remember, you’re dealing with a dog who knows he should be quiet and neighbors who have legal rights to see that he does. Now leave, and let your fading footsteps tell the dog of your going. When you’ve walked to a point where he’ll think you’re gone but where you could hear any noises he might make, stop and listen. If you find a comfortable waiting place on a nearby porch, be careful not to talk or laugh. Tests show a dog’s hearing to be many times as sharp as yours. When the noise comes, instead of trying to sneak up to the door so you can barge in while he’s still barking, which is generally impossible, respond to his first sound with an emphatic bellow of "out," and keep on bellowing as you charge back to his area. Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line  and reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something. While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over  while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release  him from the stay and leave the area again. So that you won’t feel remorseful, reflect on the truth that a great percentage of the barkers who are given away to "good homes" end up in the kindly black box with the sweet smell. Personally, I’ve always felt that it’s even better to spank children, even if they "cry out," than to "put them to sleep." You might have a long wait on that comfortable porch before your dog starts broadcasting again. When he does, let your long range bellow tie the consequent correction to his first sound and repeat the spanking, if anything emphasizing it a bit more. It might be necessary to spend a Saturday or another day off so that you’ll have time to follow through sufficiently. When you have a full day, you will be able to convince him each yelp will have a bad consequence, and the consistency will make your job easier. If he gets away with his concert part of the time, he’ll be apt to gamble on your inconsistency. After a half dozen corrections, "the reason and the correction" will be tied in close enough association so that you can move in on him without the preliminary bellowing of "out." From then on, it’s just a case of laying for the dog and supplying enough bad consequences of his noise so he’ll no longer feel like gambling. Occasionally, there is a dog who seems to sense that you’re hiding nearby and will utter no sound. He also seems to sense when you have really gone away, at least according to the neighbors. Maybe his sensing actually amounts to close observation. He could be watching and listening for the signs of your actual going. Make a convincing operation of leaving, even if it requires changing clothes and being unusually noisy as you slam the doors on the family car and drive away. Arrange with a friend to trade cars a block or two from your house so you can come back and park within earshot without a single familiar sound to tell the dog you’ve returned. A few of these car changes are generally enough to fool the most alert dog. Whether your dog believes you are gone anytime you step out of the house or requires the production of changing clothes and driving off, keep working until even your neighbors admit the dog has reformed. If there has been a long history of barking and whining, it sometimes requires a lot of work to make a dog be quiet when you’re not around, so give the above method an honest try before you presume your dog requires a more severe correction. Our professor of behavior Wisc. U., lyingdoc dermer endorses koehler. (He said: "I punish dog’s behavior, NOT the dog." You gonna believe THAT CRAP, PEOPLE???) "Read koehler for content" Mark Shaw, Sadist, rpdb regular. "I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn, pathological liar, noted dog abuser. "There’s much wisdom in koehler," deana pace. (Her dogs run away from home.) "Read koehler," lyingdogDUMMY. (koehler is all he understands.) "Read koehler, cindymorons k-9 web faq’s page," ludwig smith. "I’m not a koehler trainer," cindymoron, lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn, lyingfrosty dahl. But they spout koehler’s methods. They don’t consider themselves koehler trainers because they shock dogs, twist and pinch ears and toes, and BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS to MOTIVATE them Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears (INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES). I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM). I would never advise anyone to slap a dog (SHE’S A PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you expect her to ADMIT THE TRUTH???). I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists… and chin cuff doesn’t mean hit, according to lyinglynn and avrama…. amy lyingfrosty dahl continues: "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG. Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch. Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell. Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in" With your hand on the collar and ear, say, ‘fetch.’ Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb; Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching its ear. Gotta LOVE koehler. dahl makes koheler look like St. Francis.

Response:

I mucked up – that was TAILS not TALES – wasn’t looking at the book when I typed it in – sigh – I knew I should have cut and pasted it from Amazon! Nancy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks, Nancy. I’ll put down my Bruce Fogle’s ‘Popular Myths for Novices’ > and go out and buy a copy. > Aligata > I think anyone who works with dogs and their people will enjoy Tales from > the Bark Side by Kilcommons and Wilson. > Oh so true portraits of both dogs and owners and also of the ‘fun’ of > being > a trainer of both. Lots of reality in there too and many smiles as well as > stuff that will make you shake your head as in yep I understand that one! > Its out in paperback now (which is why I own it > Nancy

Response:

Thanks, Nancy. I’ll put down my Bruce Fogle’s ‘Popular Myths for Novices’ and go out and buy a copy. Aligata – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I think anyone who works with dogs and their people will enjoy Tales from > the Bark Side by Kilcommons and Wilson. > Oh so true portraits of both dogs and owners and also of the ‘fun’ of being > a trainer of both. Lots of reality in there too and many smiles as well as > stuff that will make you shake your head as in yep I understand that one! > Its out in paperback now (which is why I own it > Nancy

Response:

I think anyone who works with dogs and their people will enjoy Tales from the Bark Side by Kilcommons and Wilson. Oh so true portraits of both dogs and owners and also of the ‘fun’ of being a trainer of both. Lots of reality in there too and many smiles as well as stuff that will make you shake your head as in yep I understand that one! Its out in paperback now (which is why I own it Nancy

Response:

Im looking up Amazon right now…Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I think anyone who works with dogs and their people will enjoy Tales from > the Bark Side by Kilcommons and Wilson. > Oh so true portraits of both dogs and owners and also of the ‘fun’ of being > a trainer of both. Lots of reality in there too and many smiles as well as > stuff that will make you shake your head as in yep I understand that one! > Its out in paperback now (which is why I own it > Nancy

Response:

> That is a TERRIBLE book written by a man who hates dogs. I can’t imagine > anyone on this list recoommending this book. snip

hmm must have drunkman killfiled then Nancy

Response:

That is a TERRIBLE book written by a man who hates dogs. I can’t imagine anyone on this list recoommending this book. At the same time, giving credence to Jerry Howe is just as much folly. Stick around and just watch   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Here’s the book recommended by most of our experts: > "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" , Howell Book House, 1996 > William Koehler

Response:

> Thanks, Nancy. I’ll put down my Bruce Fogle’s ‘Popular Myths for Novices’ > and go out and buy a copy. > Aligata

Hello roo, Here’s the book recommended by most of our experts: "The Koehler Method of Dog Training" , Howell Book House, 1996 William Koehler BARKING, WHINING, HOWLING, YODELING, SCREAMING, AND WAILING The fact that you realize you have such a problem makes it certain you have "reproved" the dog often enough to let him know you were against his sound effects, even though your reproving didn’t quiet them, so we’ll bypass the loudly clapped hands, the cup of water in his face, and the "shame-shames" and start with something more emphatic. We’ll begin with the easiest kind of vocalist to correct: the one that charges gates, fences, doors, and windows, barking furiously at familiar or imaginary people and objects. A few clusters of BBs from a good slingshot, in conjunction with the light line and plenty of temptations, will cause such a dog to use his mind rather than his mouth. But you won’t make the permanent impression unless you supply dozens of opportunities for him to exercise the control he thus acquires. Make sure these opportunities don’t always come at the same time of the day, else he may learn to observe the "quiet hour" and pursue his old routines at other times. With the help of the light line, it will be easy to follow the BBs with a long down to make sure he gets the most from his lesson. As was mentioned before, eliminating the senseless barking will not lessen the dog’s value as a  watchdog but rather, as he grows more discriminating, increase it. The dog who vocalizes in bratty protest or lonesomeness because you’re gone constitutes a different problem. If it is impractical for someone to stay with him constantly (there are owners who cater to neurosis by employing dog sitters), you’ll have to heed the neighbors and the law and quiet the dog. This calls for a little ingenuity as well as a heavy hand. Attach a line to your dog’s collar, so your corrective effort doesn’t turn into a footrace around the house until you reach a stalemate under the bed. This use of the line in the correction will also serve to establish it as a reminder to be quiet as the dog drags it around when you’re not present. Next, equip yourself with a man’s leather belt or a strap heavy enough to give your particular dog a good tanning. Yup-we’re going to strike him. Real hard. Remember, you’re dealing with a dog who knows he should be quiet and neighbors who have legal rights to see that he does. Now leave, and let your fading footsteps tell the dog of your going. When you’ve walked to a point where he’ll think you’re gone but where you could hear any noises he might make, stop and listen. If you find a comfortable waiting place on a nearby porch, be careful not to talk or laugh. Tests show a dog’s hearing to be many times as sharp as yours. When the noise comes, instead of trying to sneak up to the door so you can barge in while he’s still barking, which is generally impossible, respond to his first sound with an emphatic bellow of "out," and keep on bellowing as you charge back to his area. Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you’ve conveniently placed, and descend on him. He’ll have no chance to dodge if you grab the line  and reel him in until his front feet are raised off the floor or, if he’s a big dog, until you’ve snubbed him up with a hitch on something. While he’s held in close, lay the strap vigorously against his thighs. Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it’s the bitter end. A real whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat performances that will be necessary. When you’re finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on a long down to think things over  while you catch your breath. After fifteen or twenty minutes, release  him from the stay and leave the area again. So that you won’t feel remorseful, reflect on the truth that a great percentage of the barkers who are given away to "good homes" end up in the kindly black box with the sweet smell. Personally, I’ve always felt that it’s even better to spank children, even if they "cry out," than to "put them to sleep." You might have a long wait on that comfortable porch before your dog starts broadcasting again. When he does, let your long range bellow tie the consequent correction to his first sound and repeat the spanking, if anything emphasizing it a bit more. It might be necessary to spend a Saturday or another day off so that you’ll have time to follow through sufficiently. When you have a full day, you will be able to convince him each yelp will have a bad consequence, and the consistency will make your job easier. If he gets away with his concert part of the time, he’ll be apt to gamble on your inconsistency. After a half dozen corrections, "the reason and the correction" will be tied in close enough association so that you can move in on him without the preliminary bellowing of "out." From then on, it’s just a case of laying for the dog and supplying enough bad consequences of his noise so he’ll no longer feel like gambling. Occasionally, there is a dog who seems to sense that you’re hiding nearby and will utter no sound. He also seems to sense when you have really gone away, at least according to the neighbors. Maybe his sensing actually amounts to close observation. He could be watching and listening for the signs of your actual going. Make a convincing operation of leaving, even if it requires changing clothes and being unusually noisy as you slam the doors on the family car and drive away. Arrange with a friend to trade cars a block or two from your house so you can come back and park within earshot without a single familiar sound to tell the dog you’ve returned. A few of these car changes are generally enough to fool the most alert dog. Whether your dog believes you are gone anytime you step out of the house or requires the production of changing clothes and driving off, keep working until even your neighbors admit the dog has reformed. If there has been a long history of barking and whining, it sometimes requires a lot of work to make a dog be quiet when you’re not around, so give the above method an honest try before you presume your dog requires a more severe correction. Our professor of behavior Wisc. U., lyingdoc dermer endorses koehler. (He said: "I punish dog’s behavior, NOT the dog." You gonna believe THAT CRAP, PEOPLE???) "Read koehler for content" Mark Shaw, Sadist, rpdb regular. "I LOVE KOHELER" lyinglynn, pathological liar, noted dog abuser. "There’s much wisdom in koehler," deana pace. (Her dogs run away from home.) "Read koehler," lyingdogDUMMY. (koehler is all he understands.) "Read koehler, cindymorons k-9 web faq’s page," ludwig smith. "I’m not a koehler trainer," cindymoron, lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn, lyingfrosty dahl. But they spout koehler’s methods. They don’t consider themselves koehler trainers because they shock dogs, twist and pinch ears and toes, and BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS to MOTIVATE them Amy lyingfrosty dahl LIES with a straight face and says: "I don’t beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes. For the benefit of anyone who is in doubt, and who chooses not to read the article (SHE’D REALLY LIKE IT IF YOU DON’T READ IT!), there is NO mention in it of "twisting ears (INDEED, SHE PINCHES THEM WITH SPIKES). I would never slap a dog (SHE TEACHES PEOPLE TO BEAT DOGS WITH STICKS TO MOTIVATE THEM). I would never advise anyone to slap a dog (SHE’S A PROVEN LIAR AND DOG ABUSER, do you expect her to ADMIT THE TRUTH???). I do not believe there is a single circumstance, ever, where slapping a dog is anything but destructive." RIGHT. She PINCHES, not twists… and chin cuff doesn’t mean hit, according to lyinglynn and avrama…. amy lyingfrosty dahl continues: "Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply. REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG. Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch. Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance. but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth, get out the shotshell. Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in" With your hand on the collar and ear, say, ‘fetch.’ Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy. You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb; Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips and pinching its ear. Gotta LOVE koehler. dahl makes koheler look like St. Francis.

Response:

I mucked up – that was TAILS not TALES – wasn’t looking at the book when I typed it in – sigh – I knew I should have cut and pasted it from Amazon! Nancy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks, Nancy. I’ll put down my Bruce Fogle’s ‘Popular Myths for Novices’ > and go out and buy a copy. > Aligata > I think anyone who works with dogs and their people will enjoy Tales from > the Bark Side by Kilcommons and Wilson. > Oh so true portraits of both dogs and owners and also of the ‘fun’ of > being > a trainer of both. Lots of reality in there too and many smiles as well as > stuff that will make you shake your head as in yep I understand that one! > Its out in paperback now (which is why I own it > Nancy

Response:

Thanks, Nancy. I’ll put down my Bruce Fogle’s ‘Popular Myths for Novices’ and go out and buy a copy. Aligata – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I think anyone who works with dogs and their people will enjoy Tales from > the Bark Side by Kilcommons and Wilson. > Oh so true portraits of both dogs and owners and also of the ‘fun’ of being > a trainer of both. Lots of reality in there too and many smiles as well as > stuff that will make you shake your head as in yep I understand that one! > Its out in paperback now (which is why I own it > Nancy

Response:

I think anyone who works with dogs and their people will enjoy Tales from the Bark Side by Kilcommons and Wilson. Oh so true portraits of both dogs and owners and also of the ‘fun’ of being a trainer of both. Lots of reality in there too and many smiles as well as stuff that will make you shake your head as in yep I understand that one! Its out in paperback now (which is why I own it Nancy

Response:

Im looking up Amazon right now…Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I think anyone who works with dogs and their people will enjoy Tales from > the Bark Side by Kilcommons and Wilson. > Oh so true portraits of both dogs and owners and also of the ‘fun’ of being > a trainer of both. Lots of reality in there too and many smiles as well as > stuff that will make you shake your head as in yep I understand that one! > Its out in paperback now (which is why I own it > Nancy

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->’Bring it on’ Bushies!  What are you running from? >http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html

Response:

>>’Bring it on’ Bushies!  What are you running from?

What drugs are you taking?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Isn’t it odd that Kerry served a tour prior prior to his swift boat > duty >and didn’t receive any awards other then your basic ‘foot on the > ground’ >in country medals then he returns for a 4-1/2 mojnth streach and > musters >up more medals then anyone else in that short period of time who served >with him? Sounds like he got educated on the first tour then put his >education to use on is second partial tour. > I’m going to enjoy sneering at you rapists of our nation’s honor in > November.  Either that or I’m going to enjoy looking at you from another > country.  

I recommend it be a communist country, Kerry is well liked by them and you will be right at home.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>>>>"Should a man who falsely accused American troops of atrocities >>>>>>>serve as Commander-in-Chief? >>>>>>>Winter Soldier Poll >>>>>>>Sure 2591(3.97%) >>>>>>>No  5944 (9.12%) >>>>>>>Hell No!  56658  (86.91%) >>>>>>>65193 votes  On Aug 4 2004" >>>>>>I agree with this poll! >>>>>Then I assume that, when someone actually runs for president who has >>>>>falsely accused American troops of atrocities, you will vote against >>>>>them. >>>>I am voting against Kerry. >>>>Come to DC this weekend and findout why? >>>A) why would I need to come to DC to find this out, are you incapable >>>of simply explaining your position here? >>My position is very clear. I am voting against Kerry. > That’s a definition, not an explanation.  WHY you are voting against > Kerry (you think, now) would be an ‘explanation.’ >>>b) What does voting against Kerry have to do with "a man who falsely >>>accused American troops of atrocities?"  Are you suggesting that >>>there were no atrocities in Vietnam? >>Kerry did not witness one single fucking atrocity. > And? > This is one of severals reasons why I will vote against Kerry.

Bush "did not witness one single fucking atrocity" either. Is this one of the reasons you will vote against him as well?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Isn’t it odd that Kerry served a tour prior prior to his swift boat > duty >> and didn’t receive any awards other then your basic ‘foot on the > ground’ >> in country medals then he returns for a 4-1/2 mojnth streach and > musters >> up more medals then anyone else in that short period of time who >> served with him? Sounds like he got educated on the first tour then >> put his education to use on is second partial tour. > I’m going to enjoy sneering at you rapists of our nation’s honor in > November.  Either that or I’m going to enjoy looking at you from > another country. > I recommend it be a communist country, Kerry is well liked by them and > you will be right at home.

He is, after all, a (North)Viet Nam War Hero…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>>>"Should a man who falsely accused American troops of atrocities >>>>>>serve as Commander-in-Chief? >>>>>>Winter Soldier Poll >>>>>>Sure 2591(3.97%) >>>>>>No  5944 (9.12%) >>>>>>Hell No!  56658  (86.91%) >>>>>>65193 votes  On Aug 4 2004" >>>>>I agree with this poll! >>>>Then I assume that, when someone actually runs for president who has >>>>falsely accused American troops of atrocities, you will vote against >>>>them. >>>I am voting against Kerry. >>>Come to DC this weekend and findout why? >>A) why would I need to come to DC to find this out, are you incapable >>of simply explaining your position here? >My position is very clear. I am voting against Kerry. > That’s a definition, not an explanation.  WHY you are voting against > Kerry (you think, now) would be an ‘explanation.’ >>b) What does voting against Kerry have to do with "a man who falsely >>accused American troops of atrocities?"  Are you suggesting that >>there were no atrocities in Vietnam? >Kerry did not witness one single fucking atrocity. > And?

This is one of severals reasons why I will vote against Kerry. >*In a debate on the Dick Cavett Show, June 30, 1971, Kerry was unable >to list a single "personal atrocity," as he labeled it, that he had >actually witnessed-a remarkable concession from the "King of the >Vietnam Veterans as War Criminals." When face to face across the table >with someone from the exact same unit, Kerry could not come up with a >single instance of any atrocity in that unit or that he himself had >actually seen in Vietnam.* > And?

This is one of severals reasons why I will vote against Kerry.

Response:

> Isn’t it odd that Kerry served a tour prior prior to his swift boat > duty > and didn’t receive any awards other then your basic ‘foot on the > ground’ > in country medals then he returns for a 4-1/2 mojnth streach and > musters > up more medals then anyone else in that short period of time who served > with him? Sounds like he got educated on the first tour then put his > education to use on is second partial tour. > Typical Bush-slurping bullshit.  Can’t find a fact that you like, MAKE > SHIT UP.

1. Kerry said he did two tours of Vietnam. Records show the ship he was on never came closer then 400 miles to Vietnam and spent most of a year tied up at Dock in the naval shipyards in California. And the total time it actually was near Vietnam was less then 5 weeks. A Tour of Vietnam was 12 months, not 5 weeks. 2. Kerry said that he was under fire when he yanked the guy out of the water and all the other boats fled. The after action reports show that the only boat that fled was Kerry’s, and this is from the other OIC’s of the boats, and one was damaged by a mine and could not leave even if it wanted to. And isn’t it suspicious that not one of the other boats had even ONE bullet hole in them? Now either the Vietcong were bad shots or there was no firefight as Kerry stated. 3. Kerry stated in his first book *The New American* that he had "parts of metal still in my ass from when I screwed up and tossed a grenade into a rice cache and it exploded." Page 38. Yet now he says this was from the firefight that never happened? 4. Kerry says he was illegally ordered by Nixon to go into Cambodia in 1968 during Christmas. Two major points wrong with this  A. Kerry stated in his own autobiography that he was sitting on his bunk writing letters home "while visions of sugarplums danced in my head." His bunk was well over 300 miles from Cambodia. and B. Not to mention that Nixon was not the President on Christmas in 1968 so there would have been no way that Nixon could have ordered Kerry to do anything. Now his aide Jeh Johnson is saying that Kerry ment it was close to Cambodia. Well there is a major problem with that as well as Kerry stated it in the Congressional Record that he was in Cambodia and did it on the Senate Floor! Plus let’s not forget that there was the simple matter of an American Blockade that stood in Kerry’s way also. 5. Kerry said he was wounded in a firefight with Vietcong after he beached his boat and charged them. problem with this is that according to his own crew, there were never any more then one frightened and badly wounded Vietcong that was running away and Kerry first shot a grenade at this person and the grenade hit a rock and bounced back. Kerry received a sliver of metal in his arm that was exactly 2.3cm long according to the medical report. The Corpsman placed some antibiotics on it and a band aid on it and sent Kerry on his way. Oh and lets not forget the wounded Vietcong that Kerry shot in the back (real brave wasn’t he? and he does not seem to have any luck with grenades either.) 6. In Kerry’s "home" movies, he is dressed in a uniform called "OD Greens" yet he was in the Navy. The ONLY people that wore this uniform were the marines and army. The navy wore "blues" or "tans" SO can you say why Kerry was trying to show himself to be a "land grunt" when in fact he was out of uniform? 7. Kerry swears he volunteered for the navy. This is yet another outright lie of his as according to his own Autobiography on page 23, he says he "signed up for the Navy Reserves to make sure that he was not sent overseas to Vietnam." and that "When the call came that I was being activated and sent to Vietnam, I strongly protested this decision right up until three months after I was actually in Vietnam. When I found I was going to be sent anyway, I then volunteered for the ’swift boats’ as this would make sure that I did not go ‘in-country’." Page 128. 8. Kerry is demanding that Bush release his military records, and that is fair. But when is Kerry going to sign the form 180 to release HIS military records? 9. Kerry is whining about the "Swift Boat" advertisements and how they are funded by Bush moneymen and how Bush should tell them to stop. Isn’t it quite funny though how MoveOn.org and the other 527’s that are promoting Kerry with lies about Bush have not been told to stop and pull their advertisements by Kerry? Or that they are all funded by left wing nutcase George Soros, a DNC moneyman. Where is Kerry’s demand that Soros and his crew cease? 10. Or could it be that Kerry is just not answering the questions put to him on this subject and people can see that now. And that this is the reason his approval is dropping in the polls with Vets and other groups that Kerry needs to win the WH. 11. Or could it be that according to the Battleground state of Ohio and Zogby’s polls, as well as a group called Ohio News Network, all say that Bush has a substantial lead over Kerry in that northern state according to registered voters from that state. A state that Kerry desperately needs if he is going to win the White House. And other ‘battleground’ states also show that a majority of them are leaning to Bush according to the USA Today Gallup Poll recently released. 12. or could it be that even with the convention, Kerry is the first person in over 30 years to actually LOSE steam and opinion points instead of getting a bump? And just how are they going to spin it if Bush gets any sort of a bump from the Republican Convention? It is not going to look very good for Kerry. And finally, how is it going to look to the public when according to the Associated Press, you have numerous amounts of voter sign up cards coming into the Board of Elections in Cleveland and all having the same return address on them…the local regional headquarters of the AFL-CIO? What is wrong with this? Oh nothing except these cards all have the same handwriting and the names have been forged as they do not match the signatures on file, and yet all of them are for the Democrat party. According to the AP story, there is a felony investigation going on and the amount of cards change with each person, but the fact is that there are well over 3000 cards that are being tossed out because of this and the US Department of Justice is looking into this as possible election fraud. Could this be the reason that Bush has more credibility right now then Kerry? I would say so. Choke on that slappy. Also, you couldn’t afford a seat on a paper plane, so don’t start that Streisand/Baldwin "If Bush wins I’m leaving" bullshit.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->’Bring it on’ Bushies!  What are you running from? >http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html

Response:

>>’Bring it on’ Bushies!  What are you running from?

What drugs are you taking?

Response:

>>’Bring it on’ Bushies!  What are you running from? >http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html

My favorite Bush Lie: The Iraq war will cost US$1 billion.

Response:

>>>’Bring it on’ Bushies!  What are you running from? >>http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >>http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >>http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >>http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >>http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >My favorite Bush Lie: The Iraq war will cost US$1 billion.

So show me a program or anything a politician wanted that cost close to what he said.  Dare I mention LBJ and his welfare society. AMR deleted you crossposting faggot piece of shit — "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right  to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect  themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776, Jefferson Papers 344 Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com – Accounts Starting At $6.95 – http://www.uncensored-news.com                <><><><><><><>   The Worlds Uncensored News Source   <><><><><><><><>

Response:

    Since when was military service ever a requirement or political office. Kerry has shown how to exploit an inflated record as nothing more then a 35 yeare old bragging right but you lefties always fail to (or refuse to) discuss where Golden Boy Billy was while your hero was so valiantly fighting the war single handedly. You guys are a real joke. You shouldn’t even be allowed to speak the name BUSH until you have explained a man who clearly stated he ‘loathed the military’ then ran off to Europe to avoid his obligations.     So, which one of you commies are willing to step up to the plate and extend an apology to the families of Guardsmen and Reservists lost in battle over the past 100 years. After all, you have made your position clear that to serve as a Guardsmen and Reservists is something less then honorable service to their country referring to it as ‘a place to hide from actually serving in the military’.  We can see clearly how the commie left values the men and weman in uniform when it comes to counting their votes from over seas. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>’Bring it on’ Bushies!  What are you running from? >>>http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >>>http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >>>http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >>>http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >>>http://www.democrats.org/bushrecord/index.html >My favorite Bush Lie: The Iraq war will cost US$1 billion. >So show me a program or anything a politician wanted that cost close >to what he said.  Dare I mention LBJ and his welfare society. >AMR deleted you crossposting faggot piece of shit >– >"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. >The strongest reason for the people to retain the right > to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect > themselves against tyranny in government." >-Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776, >Jefferson Papers 344 >Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com – Accounts Starting At $6.95 – http://www.uncensored-news.com >               <><><><><><><>   The Worlds Uncensored News Source   <><><><><><><><>

Response:

BRING IT ON!? – CAREFUL WHAT YOU ASK FOR…. By Geoff Metcalf September 8, 2004 NewsWithViews.com Since February I have been ranting that the Veteran community would eventually, inevitably, become the prime contributor to the destruction of the John Kerry campaign. For months, I have been the Lone Ranger and viewed as a moderately amusing gadfly. Guess what? I was right in February, and March, and April, and May. I was right in June, July, and August

Question:

>It wouldn’t be cheap. Even with an installed cost of $5/watt that >120 kw (STC rating) of PV is going to cost $600,000 without including >inverters or batteries. This is almost the price of a 2000 sq ft home >around here.

        It buys you THREE of them around here – and I mean Nice, New, and With some land’ ‘Some days, it’s just not worth chewing through the restraints.’ HVAC/R program for Palm PDA’s Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ Free Temperature / Pressure charts for 38 Ref’s http://pmilligan.net/pmtherm/

Response:

>>It wouldn’t be cheap. Even with an installed cost of $5/watt that >120 kw (STC rating) of PV is going to cost $600,000 without including >inverters or batteries. This is almost the price of a 2000 sq ft home >around here. >    It buys you THREE of them around here – and I mean Nice, New, >and With some land’

FOUR in NW Arizona. Hey Anthony, ever considered moving to a lower cost of living area? Thousands of newbies will moving onto off-grid properties nearby in the coming years, many of them with serious money to spend from the sale of their CA places, and most needing help with their setups. Could be a great business for someone with your patience. Some people do complain about the dearth of culture here, but that’s no longer an issue since a Home Depot opened last week. Wayne

Response:

> > >The water temp varied from about 60 to 110 F in  a 2 minute cycle > Exactly why you need to quit posting in a professional newsgroup. > How would you solve this problem?

 How much money do you have? .  There’s a whole bunch of ways. Cheapest and easiest would be two small bladder tanks and a quality fast-response mixing valve like they use in safety showers.  Another way would be to put variable speed positive displacement pumps with overpressure recirculators and check valves instead of centripital, hooked with RTDs into a PLC. I’d suggest high speed lobe; it’ll even give you that cool "pulsing" shower feel .  But the first one would be alot cheaper . DJ

Response:

You carefully remove the PV panels, replace the roof and carefully put the PV panels back. What did you expect? A roof that is covered in PV panels shouldn’t need replacing as often. If you use PV panels built in to a roofing product then they become the roof and should last at least the 25 year warranty period. 2000 ft^2 is about 185 m^2. If we figure an average insolation of some 5 kwh/m^2/day and an efficiency around 10% (after thermal losses) this works out to about 92.5 kwh/day and 2800 kwh/month. Obviously there would be more in the summer and less in the winter. Around these parts, a typical home of this size might use anywhere from 12kwh/day to 24kwh/day for everything except HVAC. Heating or Air Conditioning can typically run in the 24kwh/day range. A good electric car can get 3 miles/kwh and the typical commute around Los Angeles is about 40 miles/day so a two car family would need some 27 kwh/day. This adds up to 75 kwh/day or 81% of the total. They may have 19% to spare on an average day. With some conservation measures, extra insulation, etc. they might bring that down to some 46 kwh/day max or 50%. Of course, in the winter there is less light so this would change the numbers. They could always go cover the garage with PV or place panels on trackers or racks in the yards (assuming they have yards). It wouldn’t be cheap. Even with an installed cost of $5/watt that 120 kw (STC rating) of PV is going to cost $600,000 without including inverters or batteries. This is almost the price of a 2000 sq ft home around here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > What do you do when the roof needs replacing? >You are making it much too complicated.  First get a rectangular house >and put 2000 square feet of photovoltaic panels with a small air gap >below the panels. >70X30 feet.  That is 6000 kw-hr a month of electricity.  Easily enough >for home use, heating cooling and for an electric car with 50 percent >to spare.

Response:

You are making it much too complicated.  First get a rectangular house and put 2000 square feet of photovoltaic panels with a small air gap below the panels. 70X30 feet.  That is 6000 kw-hr a month of electricity.  Easily enough for home use, heating cooling and for an electric car with 50 percent to spare.  Have one fan that blows the air from the gap below the panels in the house and one that blows to the atmosphere.  Thus, you can pump air inside the house when it is sunny in winter, and at night in the summer, manually. Everything else is standard. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > …As drawn, it looks like we have 50×86 = 4300 ft^2 of heated ceiling and > 2(50+86)17 = 4624 ft^2 of walls enclosing the living space, of which about > 120 ft^2 is 1st-floor south windows (excluding the stairwell windows) and > 148 ft^2 is 2nd-floor south windows and 193 ft^2 is north windows, with > 71 ft^2 on the east and west walls. That’s about 603 ft^2 of windows, ie

Response:

>>>The water temp varied from about 60 to 110 F in  a 2 minute cycle >Exactly why you need to quit posting in a professional newsgroup. > How would you solve this problem? > Nick

Cash up front first!! You want professional .. You pay professional! We don’t leech a freebee paycheck from some taxpayer system like you do! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> > >The water temp varied from about 60 to 110 F in  a 2 minute cycle > Exactly why you need to quit posting in a professional newsgroup. > How would you solve this problem? > Nick

Call a plumber.

Response:

>> >The water temp varied from about 60 to 110 F in  a 2 minute cycle > How would you solve this problem?

Hook it up to some spa jets and use it for contrast baths.   ;->

Response:

>>Others would probably do this work. I’d stand behind the engineering. > Spoken like a pencil pusher. If we has a dollar for every time…

Typical Nick bullshit..   A real Engineer is hands on. With Nicks type of Engineering our space program would be blowing grains of sand out of antholes! He is a hobbybaby. Just toyland crap! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The water temp varied from about 60 to 110 F in >a 2 minute cycle A temperature regulating mixing valve or a bladder >tank might fix that problem. >Nick > Exactly why you need to quit posting in a professional newsgroup.

Response:

> Others would probably do this work. I’d stand behind the engineering.

Spoken like a pencil pusher. If we has a dollar for every time… >The water temp varied from about 60 to 110 F in > a 2 minute cycle A temperature regulating mixing valve or a bladder > tank might fix that problem. > Nick

Exactly why you need to quit posting in a professional newsgroup.

Response:

> >The water temp varied from about 60 to 110 F in  a 2 minute cycle > Exactly why you need to quit posting in a professional newsgroup.

How would you solve this problem? Nick

Response:

> …As drawn, it looks like we have 50×86 = 4300 ft^2 of heated ceiling and > 2(50+86)17 = 4624 ft^2 of walls enclosing the living space, of which about > 120 ft^2 is 1st-floor south windows (excluding the stairwell windows) and > 148 ft^2 is 2nd-floor south windows and 193 ft^2 is north windows, with > 71 ft^2 on the east and west walls. That’s about 603 ft^2 of windows, ie > 7% of the floorspace. > <end of appendix>

good place > to dry laundry or flowers or escape winter blahs for a few minutes…

I’d like to see you back that up with a install you would stand behind. Customer may wind up snapping your pencil off in you.

Response:

>> …As drawn, it looks like we have 50×86 = 4300 ft^2 of heated ceiling and > 2(50+86)17 = 4624 ft^2 of walls enclosing the living space… >I’d like to see you back that up with a install you would stand behind.

Others would probably do this work. I’d stand behind the engineering. It’s fairly straightforward, altho it may be simpler and more efficient to run 54 F well water through the PV heater, with no heat exchanger or circ pump, and repressurize the DHW on the way out of the tank. The tricky part would be making the hot and cold water pressure equal. When I tried this at home with two pumps and hot rainwater and cold wellwater, showers were very invigorating. The water temp varied from about 60 to 110 F in a 2 minute cycle A temperature regulating mixing valve or a bladder tank might fix that problem. Nick

Response:

…As drawn, it looks like we have 50×86 = 4300 ft^2 of heated ceiling and 2(50+86)17 = 4624 ft^2 of walls enclosing the living space, of which about 120 ft^2 is 1st-floor south windows (excluding the stairwell windows) and 148 ft^2 is 2nd-floor south windows and 193 ft^2 is north windows, with 71 ft^2 on the east and west walls. That’s about 603 ft^2 of windows, ie 7% of the floorspace. With 0.1 air changes per hour (very tight, about 40 ACH in a 50 Pa blower door test), it would naturally leak about 0.1×4300x17/60 = 122 cfm, enough for 8 full-time occupants at 15 cfm each. An efficient air-air heat exchanger (eg a bidirectional fan in a partition wall) in series with a humidistat might provide the rest of the fresh air. R14 walls and an R34 ceiling (eg 6" of fiberglass under 2" foamboard) and R2 south windows with 80% solar transmission with R4 and 50% for the rest would make the thermal conductance to outdoors 268ft^2/R2 = 134 Btu/h-F for the south windows + 335/4 = 84 for the rest of the windows + (4624-603)/14 = 287 for walls + 4300/34 = 126 for the ceiling + 122 for air leakage, totaling 753 Btu/h-F. NREL data indicate January is the worst-case month for solar house heating in NYC, when 610 Btu/ft^2 falls on a square foot of ground and 980 Btu falls on a south wall on an average 31.5 F day with an average daily high of 37.6, for an average daytime temp of 34.6 F. East, west, and north walls get 410, 410, and 190 Btu. On a clear vs average day, 690 Btu falls on the ground and 1800 falls on a south wall. The average temp is 76.8 in July, with 1910 Btu on the ground and 850 on a south wall.  The yearly average (water) temp is 54.7, with 1260 and 1510 Btu on the ground and on a south wall. On an average January day, the south windows would collect 0.8×980x268 = 210.1K Btu, IF unshaded. The upper south windows might collect more with a light colored porch roof. The rest would collect 0.5(410(71+71)+190×193) = 47.4K Btu, for a total solar gain of 257.5K Btu/day. An average US family uses about 10,000 kWh per year of electrical energy, ie about 2500 kWh per year per person. (Steve Baer and his wife use a total of 960 kWh/year If 55 energy-frugal people use 1/4 of the US per capita average amount of electricity indoors, ie 55×2500/4 = 34.4K kWh per year, that adds 34.4Kx3410/365 = 321K Btu/day… 55 people sleeping 8 hours would add 253×55x8 = 111K Btu/day. The house needs about 24h(65-31.5)753 = 605K Btu of heat on an average January day. Solar gain and electrical use and people might provide (257.5+321+111)/605, ie 114% of that. On a cloudy day, electrical use and people might provide (321+111)/605, ie 71% of the heat. R32 walls and an R60 ceiling would make it 100%. So would 12" R48 SIPs. The hydronic slabs can help spread solar heat around and store it overnight. Three solid 6" x 4300 ft^2 slabs have about 3×4300x6/12×25 = 161K Btu/F of heat capacitance. RC = 161K/842 = 192 hours, which could be raised with a big water tank. Tim Ellison spoke on his "House with a 10-day time constant" at the last Portland, ME ASES conference. A radiant floor and "3 3000 gallon plastic septic tanks in an outdoor strawbale sculpture." Unfortunately, the tanks contained room temp vs hot water. With no gain, a 192-hour house would cool from 70 to 30+(70-30)e^(-18/192) = 66 F over an 18 hour 30 F night. A good passive solar house with a longer time constant (eg a "Barra house" with a hydronic floors over spancrete with 4"x6" holes on 8" centers and a large heat storage tank and thermosyphoning air heater panels on the south wall) might store heat for 5 cloudy days, gradually cooling to 60 F, but it wouldn’t provide domestic hot water. A 10 minute 1.25 gpm 110 F shower needs 10×1.25×8.33(110-55) = 5727 Btu… 55 showers per day would be 315K Btu. An 80% greywater heat exchanger might preheat fresh water to 55+0.8(105-55) = 95 F with 105 F drainwater from fully-enclosed showers, reducing the water heating to 55×10x1.25×8.33(110-95) = 86K Btu/day, but that might require lots of money and floorspace. Graywater might flow through 1,000′ of 4" PVC pipe in the floorslab, but how would we keep the pipe full without serous clogging? Some septic systems use filters with nylon stockings surrounding 4" pipe… Including DHW, we need 5(605K-432K+315K) = 2440K Btu for 5 cloudy days in a row. With perfect temperature stratification, this might come from two 1500 gallon 5′ deep x 8′ diameter insulated tanks with copper coil heat exchangers. Over 5 cloudy days, one tank would cool from 170 to 54 F, the flexible circular metal tanks and heat exchangers like this for $1-2 per gallon. They are widely used with Tarn woodstoves (although wood is ongoing work, compared to solar heat.) DHW would flow through a heat exchange coil in each tank. On cloudy days, the warmer tank would heat the slabs. A solar attic like those in Soldier’s Grove with water vs warm air heat collection could heat the tanks with 2 low-power circulating pumps and heat exchange coils with water from a 6′ wide x 72′ long greenhouse polyethylene film heater atop a 6′x60′ east-west strip of horizontal PV panels on the attic floor, with a 6′x12′ higher temp heater section with the poly film pillow covered with 2 additional layers of polycarbonate glazing, with no PVs beneath it. This polycarbonate glazing costs about $1.50/ft^2 in 4′x50′x0.02" rolls, with a 10-year guarantee against loss of light transmission, outdoors. The 72′ heater might be south of an 80′x12′ high reflective wall under the attic ridge, with an EPDM liner beneath for leak protection. The 12/12 south roof could be a 17′x80′ single layer of corrugated polycarbonate Dynaglas greenhouse roofing in 20 overlapping 4′x17′ sheets. Greenhouse film comes in wide rolls, costs 5 cents/ft^2, and has a 4-year guarantee outdoors, exposed to wind and UV. Water-filled poly film ducts on the ground store overnight heat in Israeli greenhouses. I’ve boiled this 6 mil UV-inhibited polyethylene film with no apparent change in properties. Its refractive index is close to water and glass, and water absorbs longer wavelengths than PVs use, and thin layers of water and poly film don’t absorb much, so the heater won’t greatly reduce the PV output. When I put two layers of poly film with an inch of water between them over a PV panel, the electrical output (Isc) only dropped 6%. A 6′x60′ PV array would normally make about 3.6 kW, peak, but the reflective wall could double that in summertime. This could also work with a smaller PV array, or none at all, to begin with. The water would drain down at night in wintertime. It might stay in the heaters all the time with gable attic vents open in summertime. The attic would collect about 0.9×12x80(1910+850) = 2385K Btu on an average July day (less, because of the reflective wall shading, and still less, with white cloth over the south 6′ of the floor.) If 0.15×2x6×60x0.9×1910 = 186K of that becomes electricity and 315K Btu heats water, 2385K-186K-315K = 1884K Btu is left, ie 1884K/24h = 79K Btu/h. With lots of water inside the attic and 8 ft^2 gable and floor vents, 79K Btu/h = 16.6(16ft^2)sqrt(12)dT^1.5 makes the attic-to-outdoor temp diff dT 19.4 F, with a 16.6(16)sqrt(12×19.4) = 4050 cfm airflow (which might serve as a whole-house fan at night.) The average attic temp would be about 76.8+19.4 = 96.2 F in July, or less, with a thin layer of evaporating water over the heater. Cooler PVs produce more electricity. Vents through the reflective wall and the north roof could lower the attic temp more. The north attic roof might extend above the south roof, with 2′ of south-facing windows above it, open in summertime, and a linear lightshaft below that that leads to some simple skylights in the attic floor. With roof insulation and heat from the south attic, people might use the space below the north roof, about 80′x18′, down to a 6′ headroom. This is a sketch. A simple computer simulation would be useful, something that shows the house would not have required any backup fuel at all over the last 30 years, using NYC hourly weather data. Nick APPENDIX: Solar attic collection details With R33 insulation (R14 urethane plus a 6" fiberglass wrap), each tank would lose about 24h(170-65)150ft^2/R33 = 12.5K Btu/day in a 65 F space We want to collect at least 25K Btu/day at 180 F plus 315K Btu/day at 120 F or more. The tanks and heaters might be plumbed like this (viewed in a fixed font, eg Courier):      A 6′x12′ wood polycarbonate frame     polycarbonate      could be laid over the end of         |           |      the polyethylene film heater.         polycarbonate                                            |           |    ->|                  1-2" of water                  |<–   |              <–60′–>                 |  <–12′–>    |   |                                        |               |   |      initial/final temps               |               |   |                                        |               |   | pump 170/54                            |    170/110    | pump  —     ——-                           |    ——-   — | ^ |   |       |       120 F              |   |       | | ^ |  —    |   *   |                              |   *   |  —   |     | *     |       ground floor           |     * |   |    —–|       |                              |       |—          ——-      *** heat exchange coil   ——-          120/54                                 170/110 The DHW and radiant floor heat exchange coils are not shown above. On an average January day, a 12′x12′x80′ long attic solar aperture with 90% transmission might collect … read more »

Response:

Question:

>Are there any commercial, prefab battery boxes for home power use?

Google for battery enclosures. There are plenty of mfg’s available. — ron  (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Response:

>Are there any commercial, prefab battery boxes for home power use?

Good idea !  here’s a niche market some opportunist could exploit shamelessly . Now after the Oligarchical taxation of " Approvals" what profit could you make .?  Some heated discourse on the use of unrated "Welding" cables to make up battery pack jumpers comes to mind . Humorously on topic are the 2 boat/rv trailer battery boxes destined to house batteries for my next UPS reincarnation . Boxes will be housed on a wooden pallet and bricked in by 8X8 styrofoam cubes . So packaged they should do ok in Southern MO winters  :> Earlier I posted a true meltdown story about a friend’s underbed battery short caused fire . The rest of the story is his perceived safer redo . He followed every tech pub he could find . Bolted fuses at each terminal . A commercial battery cabinet from a deinstalled UPS. Stainless steel flex hose for the vents .  And so on Ad bankruptum .  We figured out he spent $2k on the system and his payback would be 30 years at 5c/KWH avoided cost . Minus interest ! And – it became almost painful to service the system . Every detail sucked worse than imaginable  . Wrenches were too long to fit . Racks resisted puling out to water batteries . Cheap hardware in the cabinet crumbled quickly despite it’s alleged commercial pedigree . Rust in peace …    Snipped of rhetorical flaming me about a false perception of my disrespect for _ legitimate_ safety issues – the concern is *real* world risk/cost review . Bunkers designed for a 5 stick of dynamite blast Vs a plastic blow formed shed . Let’s get real here . Ask WHY ? Properly designed plastic battery boxes could be arguably safer than the bunker concept . Light plastic is less of a fragmentation issue . Ventilation aided by molded vents and attention to static electricity in those vents could make a safer overall install . Access to terminals for routine clean&tighten improves reliability and decreases fire risk from neglect . My first bottom of the pizza box sketch is a kid’s covered sandbox modified to have raised ribs in the floor . Ribs to support the weight of the batteries and allow washdown water to drain . Further refinements are welcome from all ! A co-worker shouldersurfing me as I typed this suggested molded outer compartments for inverters . His reasoning being to shorten the expensive high current wiring . And making retrofits easier . Ask yourself this question about ideas posted in these forums . Do WE profit more by one inventor barely making a dent or someone able to exploit an idea making that idea start reducing our oil dependency? Oren Beck www.campdownunder.com

Response:

Well, Steve, you just gave me a flash. An earlier post made mention of using an old refrigerator / chest freezer for gasoline storage. Why not make a battery box from same? Easy to leave outside (insulated). Easy to modify for venting (couple of pipes – one in and one out). If you’re any kind of concerned about fume buildup, you could rig a muffin fan pushing air into the box. If it’s REALLY cold where you are, you can add one of those battery heater trays under the batteries. I’m using an old fridge for a paint locker. Mark (appliance recycler,  ordinaire) Dunning

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> battery boxes should be sealed and vented to outdoors. you will have no fume > damage. > — > Steve Spence > Renewable energy and sustainable living > http://www.green-trust.org > Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel > powered diesels at > http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/ > I have a garage, attached to the house, where I want to site a battery > bank, > under a workbench, on a wheeled cart. > It’s a tight fit; the chrome bumper of my old Mercedes is a few feet away. > The stud walls of the garage are only a foot away. > Although the lifecycle and cost of Trojans is attractive, I’m concerned > about fume damage to nearby objects, both metal and wood. > Opinions?

Response:

Excellent Idea. — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel powered diesels at http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well, Steve, you just gave me a flash. > An earlier post made mention of using an old refrigerator / chest freezer > for gasoline storage. > Why not make a battery box from same? > Easy to leave outside (insulated). > Easy to modify for venting (couple of pipes – one in and one out). > If you’re any kind of concerned about fume buildup, you could rig a muffin > fan pushing air into the box. > If it’s REALLY cold where you are, you can add one of those battery heater > trays under the batteries. > I’m using an old fridge for a paint locker. > Mark (appliance recycler,  ordinaire) Dunning

Response:

> I Plonked that idiot a long time ago.

Some one tell Roger thanks for me, eh. Wow. Plonked by the master. I am pleased.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->battery boxes should be sealed and vented to outdoors. you will have no fume >damage. > Hi, > Also the battery box roof should slope upward to the vent and the vent > slope upwards to outdoors, so there are no ‘pockets’ where hydrogen > can collect. > Hydrocaps and a gas detector would make for less maintenance and > greater safety too. > cheers, > Pete.

Are there any commercial, prefab battery boxes for home power use?

Response:

>battery boxes should be sealed and vented to outdoors. you will have no fume >damage.

Hi, Also the battery box roof should slope upward to the vent and the vent slope upwards to outdoors, so there are no ‘pockets’ where hydrogen can collect. Hydrocaps and a gas detector would make for less maintenance and greater safety too. cheers, Pete.

Response:

: > Crap. Not another of those bottom posts. I have to hunt for the text of : > those things. I Plonked that idiot a long time ago.  He will argue anything just to irritate people. Only time I see him is when someone replies to his messages. Don’t miss the bad logic nor the poor responses…..

Response:

Thanks. I needed that. (no sarcasm emoticon intended. This is a pretty good post. Thanks)

… > Then your argument is against non-snipping posters, rather than > "bottom posters".  You don’t talk upside-down, why write that way?

!noisacco no drawkcab dna ,nwod edispu daer od I ,sey dna cixelsyd ma I You are making a fundamental error in assuming that a last in first out text stack is in any way upside-down. When you are having a conversation, you normally assume your listener has heard what has been said before and you do not repeat it. In a multi thread conversation you might mention enough of the comment you are responding to to make it clear, if it were needed. In a text conversation, you would include enough text of the prior post to make your context clear  enough, and would top post, bottom post, or comment snip and support post (?) as required to make your meaning clear. Bottom posting as such is no better than top posting as such, and does not permit as easy a quick read, especially if the clipping is not very parsimonious. And you is right, I way do not like reading bottom posts buried in useless reference.

Response:

> Crap. Not another of those bottom posts. I have to hunt for the text of > those things.

Then your argument is against non-snipping posters, rather than "bottom posters".  You don’t talk upside-down, why write that way? > Wears out my poor weary mouse hand scrolling past so much > regurgitated prior post material in hopes of finding a gem, buried at the > bottom of the junk pile.

People need to snip out things we’ve seen a bunch of times already.  Making it inconvenient to follow up to quotes in context isn’t the answer.

Response:

Crap. Not another of those bottom posts. I have to hunt for the text of those things. Wears out my poor weary mouse hand scrolling past so much regurgitated prior post material in hopes of finding a gem, buried at the bottom of the junk pile. But the diamond is almost always paste, and often so brief, if the writer had bothered to truncate the prior post material the whole thing would have been a one liner. Please, please, please – if you are going to bottom post, truncate the prior post material. And it wouldn’t hurt to avoid that self righteous bottom posting meta morality play. We may not all be adults here, but many of us do know how to write.

> X-No-Archive: yes > "Steve Spence"          wrote > : Why would you need a building inspector and permit for > batteries? > : Ever see a ups for a computer? same thing, just a tad bigger. > Top posted!  See below!

(truncated)

Response:

Why would you need a building inspector and permit for batteries? Ever see a ups for a computer? same thing, just a tad bigger. — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel powered diesels at http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> X-No-Archive: yes > : > : >I have a garage, attached to the house, where I want to site a > battery bank, > : >under a workbench, on a wheeled cart. > : > > : >It’s a tight fit; the chrome bumper of my old Mercedes is a few > feet away. > : >The stud walls of the garage are only a foot away. > : > > : >Although the lifecycle and cost of Trojans is attractive, I’m > concerned > : >about fume damage to nearby objects, both metal and wood. > : > > : >Opinions? > : > > : > > : > <http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/environment/alternative-energ > y/energy-resources/homepower-magazine/archives/11/11pg37.txt> > : > : One place that sells them has pictures- > : <http://www.absak.com/catalog/default.php?manufacturers_id=29> > : (Never done business with the website – just showing the items > and a > : comparative cost) > But you will still very probably need a permit and inspections by > the local building inspector.

Response:

battery boxes should be sealed and vented to outdoors. you will have no fume damage. — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel powered diesels at http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a garage, attached to the house, where I want to site a battery bank, > under a workbench, on a wheeled cart. > It’s a tight fit; the chrome bumper of my old Mercedes is a few feet away. > The stud walls of the garage are only a foot away. > Although the lifecycle and cost of Trojans is attractive, I’m concerned > about fume damage to nearby objects, both metal and wood. > Opinions?

Response:

>I have heard this kind of argument about insurance companies before.  I >wonder if there is anything to it.  Same problem if you have more gasoline >than some arbitrary limit they might impose.

It’s conceivable that there are some insurance companies that work that way.  Mine does not.  I told them beforehand I was off-grid and inquired about insurance for my wind turbine and tower since it was a separate structure.  They said — no problem.  And since it was less than 10% of the value of the house, there wasn’t any extra premium. I would think that unless there is some particular provision in the policy that specifically applies to lead-acid or gel cell batteries, that the company would have to cover the situation.  Certainly, it is not unheard of for a homeowner to have a grid-tied AE system, and if the insurance companies are concerned, that should be in the policies. But I’m not an attorney. — ron  (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Response:

I suspect the whole line of reasoning, but I suppose there might be an insurance company that might try such a thing.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have heard this kind of argument about insurance companies before.  I >wonder if there is anything to it.  Same problem if you have more gasoline >than some arbitrary limit they might impose. > It’s conceivable that there are some insurance companies that work that > way.  Mine does not.  I told them beforehand I was off-grid and inquired > about insurance for my wind turbine and tower since it was a separate > structure.  They said — no problem.  And since it was less than 10% of the > value of the house, there wasn’t any extra premium. > I would think that unless there is some particular provision in the policy > that specifically applies to lead-acid or gel cell batteries, that the > company would have to cover the situation.  Certainly, it is not unheard of > for a homeowner to have a grid-tied AE system, and if the insurance > companies are concerned, that should be in the policies. > But I’m not an attorney. > — ron  (off the grid in Downeast Maine)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >But you will still very probably need a permit and inspections by > >the local building inspector. > True in many places, but of more practical concern is the approval of the > insurance company covering the dwelling. > Original Poster: > "My battery bank shorted out and the house burned down." > Kind insurance company: > "Gee.  Too bad.  We never approved your house as a powerhouse, and you >never > even had it inspected.  Sue us." >This is a very small system. >Suppose I go with four VRLA batteries, total capacity around 200 ah at 24 >volts? >What constitutes the legal tripwire? >They don’t care about the gel cells in my alarm system.

The whole assembly most likely has a UL listing. The batteries most likely do NOT have a UL listing. Bill Kaszeta Photovoltaic Resources Int’l Tempe  Arizona  USA

Response:

I have heard this kind of argument about insurance companies before.  I wonder if there is anything to it.  Same problem if you have more gasoline than some arbitrary limit they might impose.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->But you will still very probably need a permit and inspections by >the local building inspector. > True in many places, but of more practical concern is the approval of the > insurance company covering the dwelling. > Original Poster: > "My battery bank shorted out and the house burned down." > Kind insurance company: > "Gee.  Too bad.  We never approved your house as a powerhouse, and you never > even had it inspected.  Sue us."

Response:

>But you will still very probably need a permit and inspections by >the local building inspector. > True in many places, but of more practical concern is the approval of the > insurance company covering the dwelling. > Original Poster: > "My battery bank shorted out and the house burned down." > Kind insurance company: > "Gee.  Too bad.  We never approved your house as a powerhouse, and you never > even had it inspected.  Sue us."

This is a very small system. Suppose I go with four VRLA batteries, total capacity around 200 ah at 24 volts? What constitutes the legal tripwire? They don’t care about the gel cells in my alarm system.

Response:

>But you will still very probably need a permit and inspections by >the local building inspector.

True in many places, but of more practical concern is the approval of the insurance company covering the dwelling.   Original Poster: "My battery bank shorted out and the house burned down." Kind insurance company: "Gee.  Too bad.  We never approved your house as a powerhouse, and you never even had it inspected.  Sue us."

Response:

>I have a garage, attached to the house, where I want to site a battery bank, >under a workbench, on a wheeled cart. >It’s a tight fit; the chrome bumper of my old Mercedes is a few feet away. >The stud walls of the garage are only a foot away. >Although the lifecycle and cost of Trojans is attractive, I’m concerned >about fume damage to nearby objects, both metal and wood. >Opinions?

<http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/environment/alternative-energy/en…> One place that sells them has pictures- <http://www.absak.com/catalog/default.php?manufacturers_id=29> (Never done business with the website – just showing the items and a comparative cost)

Response:

Hi robert, Use VRLA batteries and your problem is easily solved. Kindest regards, BiLL…… www.batteryfaq.org – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I have a garage, attached to the house, where I want to site a battery bank, >under a workbench, on a wheeled cart. >It’s a tight fit; the chrome bumper of my old Mercedes is a few feet away. >The stud walls of the garage are only a foot away. >Although the lifecycle and cost of Trojans is attractive, I’m concerned >about fume damage to nearby objects, both metal and wood. >Opinions?

Response:

I have a garage, attached to the house, where I want to site a battery bank, under a workbench, on a wheeled cart. It’s a tight fit; the chrome bumper of my old Mercedes is a few feet away. The stud walls of the garage are only a foot away. Although the lifecycle and cost of Trojans is attractive, I’m concerned about fume damage to nearby objects, both metal and wood. Opinions?

Response:

Question:

    A Toxic Cover-Up?     By Bob Simon     CBS News     Sunday 04 April 2004     (CBS) Who is Jack Spadaro? He’s a man who’s devoted his life to the safety of miners and the safety of people who live near mines.     He’s an engineer, who until recently was head of the National Mine Health and Safety Academy (MSHA), a branch of the Department of Labor, which trains mining inspectors.     But he lost that job last year, after he blew the whistle on what he called a whitewash by the Bush administration of an investigation into a major environmental disaster.     "I had never seen anything so corrupt and lawless in my entire career, what I saw regarding interference with a federal investigation of the most serious environmental disaster in the history of the Eastern United States," says Spadaro.     "I’ve been in government since Richard Nixon. I’ve been through the Reagan administration, Carter and Clinton. I’ve never seen anything like this."     What he’s talking about is what he calls a government cover-up of an investigation into a disaster 25 times the size of the Exxon Valdez spill.     It happened in October of 2000, when 300 million gallons of coal slurry – thick pudding-like waste from mining operations – flooded land, polluted rivers and destroyed property in Eastern Kentucky and West Virginia. The slurry contained hazardous chemicals, including arsenic and mercury.     "It polluted 100 miles of stream, killed everything in the streams, all the way to the Ohio River," says Spadaro, who was second in command of the team investigating the accident.     The slurry had been contained in an enormous reservoir, called an impoundment, which is owned by the Massey Energy Company. One night, the heavy liquid broke through the bottom of the reservoir, flooded the abandoned coalmines below it and roared out into the streams.     Spadaro says the investigators discovered the spill was more than an accident — it was an accident waiting to happen.     During the investigation carried out by Spadaro and his colleagues, it came out that there had been a previous spill in 1994 at the same impoundment. The mining company claimed it had taken measures to make sure it wouldn’t happen again, but an engineer working for the company said the problem had not been fixed, and that both he and the company knew another spill was virtually inevitable.     "He said,