Consumer Homes.

Question:

> My biggest advantage using a car battery is that it is made in the > neighboring country India and it’s very cheap. I would have drag any > other kind of battery from far away countries -would cost 5 times as > much.

        Have you considered talking with the manufacturer of the cheap batteries? It may actually help them to get into this kind of market. I don’t know the details of the manufacturing differences; but it seems that the basics are the same. If they are willing to make a deep-cycle battery suitable for UPS units, then you would not have to change any of the electronics of the UPS that you are planning to use now or in the future.         Thoughts?                 Chazz

Response:

>OK -David, this is not what I would have liked to hear, that is life >:-) >I intend to use a UPS (namely a Fiskars PowerSystem 10 2200VA and an >APC SmartUPS 1400VA) in a third world country (Nepal). My problem is >double (ha!) -lack of technical knowledge and availability of the >same locally. >My biggest advantage using a car battery is that it is made in the >neighboring country India and it’s very cheap. I would have drag any >other kind of battery from far away countries -would cost 5 times as >much.

With that kind of a cost ratio, I’d try the car batteries.  If they don’t work well, you’ll know why; if they do work for you — then continue to use ‘em! There was a post from someone recently that was using car batteries to run a mobile transmitter/sound station in his van (commercial — part of a radio station).  He kept having problems with deep cycle batteries failing quickly so he called a battery company and was told to try regular car batteries — they worked well for him!  If I remember correctly, the discharge was deep, but the recharge was almost immediate (via the alternator in the van when they were done and driving home).  SO, it’s worth a try! >Now I understand that car batteries are designed neither for deep >cycles nor repeated cycles. Given my options choosing a battery -it >might still be worth comparing the pros and cons if it is possible >to use car batteries at all in the first place. >David named 2 problems: Large car batteries would have lower >internal resistance, thus increasing the charge current. Let’s say, >for example, that I increase the battery capacity from 18Ah to 60Ah >-Do you think there is a built in circuit to detect such current >which may shutdown the UPS in order to protect it? Let’s say that >the UPS continued to charge the them, is there any danger for the >UPS? For my sake, a longer charging time is not a problem, even >though I have read that both above named UPSs are some ’smart or >intelligent & fast charging’.

BloodyViking recently posted a UPS use FAQ on this news group. He’s been doing what you want to do for a while.  You might try DejaNews and read his posts; he’s made a lot. He had several suggestions on how to work around some of the problems and limitations.  I believe that he uses a car battery charger to recharge his battery pack.  I don’t know about battery charging overload protection in UPSes.  I’d expect a good one to be protected from battery failures that include short cells which would cause too much current draw. >I am sorry that I have been so clumpsy writing this..

No problems here.  It’s clear and understandable. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Thank you all you guys Suresh In article > : Could, please somebody, explain why I should not replace the > : original batteries in an UPS with car batteries? Why I should > : use external chargers to charge the batteries. > Car batteries are not designed to be discharged much.  They start > the car and are immediately recharged.  A UPS, that is used, will > discharge the batteries much more than this and the recharge will > not occur until power is restored.  Car batteries will work for a > little while, but will not handle many significant uses.  A deep > cycle battery is designed to be discharged by 20% (cheap ones) to > 80% (good ones) as many as 500 times and will handle many more > cycles than this if the discharge is less. > A larger battery will have a lower internal resistance and will > overstress the UPS’s charging and float circuits.  The float > current will also need to be higher so the UPS may not hold the > batteries at their charge once recharged.

– David Kunz Operator error.  Replace operator and strike any key to continue…

Response:

OK -David, this is not what I would have liked to hear, that is life I intend to use a UPS (namely a Fiskars PowerSystem 10 2200VA and an APC SmartUPS 1400VA) in a third world country (Nepal). My problem is double (ha!) -lack of technical knowledge and availability of the same locally. My biggest advantage using a car battery is that it is made in the neighboring country India and it’s very cheap. I would have drag any other kind of battery from far away countries -would cost 5 times as much. Now I understand that car batteries are designed neither for deep cycles nor repeated cycles. Given my options choosing a battery -it might still be worth comparing the pros and cons if it is possible to use car batteries at all in the first place. David named 2 problems: Large car batteries would have lower internal resistance, thus increasing the charge current. Let’s say, for example, that I increase the battery capacity from 18Ah to 60Ah -Do you think there is a built in circuit to detect such current which may shutdown the UPS in order to protect it? Let’s say that the UPS continued to charge the them, is there any danger for the UPS? For my sake, a longer charging time is not a problem, even though I have read that both above named UPSs are some ’smart or intelligent & fast charging’. I am sorry that I have been so clumpsy writing this.. Thank you all you guys Suresh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : Could, please somebody, explain why I should not > : replace the original batteries in an UPS with car > : batteries? > : Why I should use external chargers to charge the > : batteries. > Car batteries are not designed to be discharged much.  They start the > car and are immediately recharged.  A UPS, that is used, will > discharge the batteries much more than this and the recharge will not > occur until power is restored.  Car batteries will work for a little > while, but will not handle many significant uses.  A deep cycle > battery is designed to be discharged by 20% (cheap ones) to 80% (good > ones) as many as 500 times and will handle many more cycles than this > if the discharge is less. > A larger battery will have a lower internal resistance and will > overstress the UPS’s charging and float circuits.  The float current > will also need to be higher so the UPS may not hold the batteries at > their charge once recharged. > — > David Kunz > Operator error.  Replace operator and strike any key to continue…

Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Could, please somebody, explain why I should not replace the original batteries in an UPS with car batteries? Why I should use external chargers to charge the batteries. regards Suresh Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

: Could, please somebody, explain why I should not : replace the original batteries in an UPS with car : batteries? : Why I should use external chargers to charge the : batteries. Car batteries are not designed to be discharged much.  They start the car and are immediately recharged.  A UPS, that is used, will discharge the batteries much more than this and the recharge will not occur until power is restored.  Car batteries will work for a little while, but will not handle many significant uses.  A deep cycle battery is designed to be discharged by 20% (cheap ones) to 80% (good ones) as many as 500 times and will handle many more cycles than this if the discharge is less. A larger battery will have a lower internal resistance and will overstress the UPS’s charging and float circuits.  The float current will also need to be higher so the UPS may not hold the batteries at their charge once recharged. — David Kunz Operator error.  Replace operator and strike any key to continue…

Response:

            I haven’t thought of a better name than UPS or some variation like UPSer or UPSes.faq             Here’s one pretty good battery faq: http://www.dcbattery.com/faq.html             The site also has specs on many battery types, auto, marine, AGM, deep cycle, etc. Take a look at it and check out the Optima batteries. They seem to have more power/lb. than most of the others and most speed/auto parts shops carry them – auto racers use these a lot, in addition to the original AGM application which was aircraft. They won’t compete with LA (lead acid "wet") batteries on price, tho.  I had several good battery faqs in my old favorites list, but lost them when I changed computers. I’ll try to find you some more, tho.                                             Russ * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Definitely put a link up. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > :          Hmmmm…..it works with spambots?  Good effort on the UPS.faq. > : I suppose we should call it something else to avoid the package service > : worry?  Anyway, we’ll have to see if we can add to this……. > : I have answers for questions that haven’t been asked.  A lot of them > : can be answered by refering to a good battery FAQ, so, I’ll post some > : of the ones I’ve found, if you’re interested in adding those. Maybe > : someone will find even better ones. > I could put a link to some battery .FAQ files in my .FAQ. I should web it. > Since you suggest I should rename it, what’s your suggestion? I could > expand it too by including large UPSes, like the Trace inverters. > — > CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680 >  First Law of Economics: You can’t sell product to people without money. > 4462880 bytes of spam mail deleted.           http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/

– John Galt "If we have the potential to create a Utopia, why do we often resemble a primitive society?" All rights reserved     Copyright (c) 1998 by John Galt (Remove NOSPAM from address when sending email)

Response:

:          Hmmmm…..it works with spambots?  Good effort on the UPS.faq. : I suppose we should call it something else to avoid the package service : worry?  Anyway, we’ll have to see if we can add to this……. : I have answers for questions that haven’t been asked.  A lot of them : can be answered by refering to a good battery FAQ, so, I’ll post some : of the ones I’ve found, if you’re interested in adding those. Maybe : someone will find even better ones. I could put a link to some battery .FAQ files in my .FAQ. I should web it. Since you suggest I should rename it, what’s your suggestion? I could expand it too by including large UPSes, like the Trace inverters. — CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680  First Law of Economics: You can’t sell product to people without money. 4462880 bytes of spam mail deleted.           http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/

Response:

: woaaa… how coool is that.. : what is your email address. could i discuss with you futher please?? : please send me an email My email address is valid, not munged. I intentionally chose "nospam" as a login name to foil spammers who try to un-munge addresses! — CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680  First Law of Economics: You can’t sell product to people without money. 4462880 bytes of spam mail deleted.           http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/

Response:

> In alt.energy.homepower } FluxDensity { > : woaaa… how coool is that.. > : what is your email address. could i discuss with you futher please?? > : please send me an email > My email address is valid, not munged. I intentionally chose "nospam" as a > login name to foil spammers who try to un-munge addresses!

         Hmmmm…..it works with spambots?  Good effort on the UPS.faq. I suppose we should call it something else to avoid the package service worry?  Anyway, we’ll have to see if we can add to this……. I have answers for questions that haven’t been asked.  A lot of them can be answered by refering to a good battery FAQ, so, I’ll post some of the ones I’ve found, if you’re interested in adding those. Maybe someone will find even better ones.                                                           Russ > CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680 >  First Law of Economics: You can’t sell product to people without money. > 4462880 bytes of spam mail deleted.

http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

woaaa… how coool is that.. what is your email address. could i discuss with you futher please?? please send me an email — } Flux Density {

..the only thing i know is F=MA… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >This is a .FAQ about the idea of taking a computer UPS and modifying it >for blackout-proofing. This is the first version of an obvious work in >progress. >—begin— >           The Modified UPS Frequently Asked Questions File. v.1.0 >This .FAQ file concerns the act of modifying a computer Uninterruptible >Power Supply for the purpose of having a longer run-time or faster >charging or both. Essentially this covers the idea of taking a UPS and >modifying it in a way for protection for blackouts for emergency power. >DISCLAIMER: The author/coder assumes no liability for any damages >resulting from the use, misuse, or abuse of the information contained >herein, nor for collateral damages resulting from the use, misuse, or >abuse thereof. This incluse but not limited to equipment failures, lost >data, fires, or injuries. You use at your own risk. >Now that the legal stuff is taken care of, I shall explain why I >wrote/coded this .FAQ file. Back in the summer of Y2K-2 (1998) in Chicago, >our power company warned the Chicago area that rolling blackouts may occur >as they had some nuke plants down for maintenance. Becuse my neighbourhood >had frequent blackouts I wasn’t happy to say the least. Unlike the >Jobs(tm) thing, I decided to take matters into my own hands and build an >emergency power supply. I did just that. I over time (and some money >wastage) built a UPS that has 500 watts and can go for 3 hours. Not bad, >eh? >This .FAQ file is the result of my expierences with my machinery and my >time in alt.energy.homepower where off-grid power comes up as the topic. >As far as I know, I was the first one to intentionally buy a UPS for >consumer use to modify it for blackout-proofing. I was always a fan of >electrical technology. I always liked playing with electricity and I have >a decent safety record for my personal experimentation. Becuse I tend to >"fly by the seat of my pants" so to speak, it’s good to know electricity >first! >Q: What’s wrong with normal UPSes? >A: The average UPS for the average consumer is meant for a few minutes of >power, just enough to save a file then cut off the computer and the UPS. >If that’s all you want, that’s just fine. You can blow only $90 and get >one. You get like 10 minutes of power to the computer which is enough to >save a file and then some. As you can imagine, this wouldn’t be useful for >those "mission-critical" mainframes or the like. But for most people, this >will work fine to save a file. However, this only saves the file. But what >about sitting around the house bored and sweaty? >Q: So what if you get sweaty? >A: Well, the UPS isn’t a UPS, is it? That’s why I own a 500 watter that >runs for hours! I can at least run a fan, as well as a light and my >computer… and my car stereo! >Q: OK, I’ve got this 1,000 watter that has a dead battery and I like this >idea. How do I hook up bigger batteries to run for hours? >A: This is why I wrote this .FAQ file. In my case I took an old 500 watt >UPS and modified it to use an external battery. First you need to find out >the original battery’s voltage. In my case I was able to tell my UPS takes >24 volts. I examined the battery pack and figured it out. It took 4 >batteries of 6 volts each in series. In early times with a cheap consumer >UPS I found it took a 12 volt battery by counting the seams of plastic >separating the lead-scid cells of the battery. Most UPSes use lead-acid >batteries much like a car but sealed. I took jumper cables and made holes >in the case and ran them to the battery in question. >Q: Your current UPS takes 24 volts. How do you make it with batteries? >A: I hooked 2 12 volt marine/RV batteries in series and the UPS has the >jumpers coming out of the intentional holes. Thus, I clip the jumpers to >the 2 poles nicely. Come a blackout, it runs. >Q: Aren’t the batteries a lot bigger than the original? >A: Yes, by a large margin. By my extimates, about 10 times bigger if not >more. If I had the money, I’d expand it! >Q: Doen’t the original charger not charge them up right? >A: Yes, that is a problem. This is why I use a car battery charger. >Q: But wait! Doesn’t your car charger only charge 12 volts not 24 volts? >A: Yes! That’s why I devised a system using relays so as to charge each >battery one after a time. I use relays in my system to remote-control the >changing of the clips from one battery to the other. That way, I can >interface the car charger to the UPS for quicker charging after the >blackout. The only problem is that at this time I must manually control >the switches that control the relays in question. I have a third relay for >blackout simulation, controlled by a separate switch. >Q: So, why do you like 24 volts? >A: There are two reasons. First, there’s that current infrastructure where >I get 12 volt parts and that smaller wires are needed for 24 volts at a >given power. At 500 watts, you’re talking 25 amps assuming some losses >while at 12 volts you need 50. Although I use jumper cable wiring, smaller >wire can be used at 25 amps and still not overheat. >For battery charging, there’s an issue of some UPSes being sensitive to >external chargers. With my setup, only half the battery cache is on charge >at any time. Cheap UPSes will often trip off if you apply external >charging. I adopted 24 volts as a standard as it’s rather common and you >can by a centre-tap adapt 12 volt stuff. Just be careful about grounding. >:) >Q: Can you set up a bigger system for better run-time? >A: Yes, and I’m planning on upgrading. I want a run-time of 10 hours at >full power. That’ll take care of the garden-variety blackouts nicely. It’s >probably best to design for a full-power run-time of half a day at least. >Except for extreme cases, that’ll handle most blackouts nicely. >Q: Can you parallel batteries in a large battery bank? >A: Yes and no. When possible, it’s best to avoid paralleling battery >caches. Instead, it’s better to buy the batteries with the desired >amp-hour rating in the first place. For large ratings, you’ll have to get >industrial batteries, like the ones used onboard electric forklifts. These >are some MASSIVE "muthuhs". One case where you have no choice but to >parallel is the case of an apartment dweller. After all, you have to get >the batteries up the stairs. Depending on your strength, a 70 pound cell >should be manmageable. For 24 volts, figure on carrying 12 cells up the >stairs to assemble the battery on-site. Future movers will HATE you! >Q: Do landlords allow large batteries? >A: So far, us UPSers are rare, so the default Lease has nothing to prevent >it. This is unlike waterbeds, which most leases ban. >Q: What about the actual weight of the battery pack? >A: This is a good question. This is a good concern as it would be rather >embarassing to have your battery cache fall through the floor! Happily, >the average apartment will handle quite a bit of a weight load. For best >results, you place the battery cache against a load-bearing wall. The >average human weighs 200 pounds, and the average car battery or equivalent >weight battery will weigh 70 pounds. You get 3 batteries to the human, so >if you can have 5 humans you can have 15 batteries easally. The biggest >problem is getting the cache up the stairs (and later moving). >Q: What are the best UPSes/inverters to get? >A: I use the cheapest gear I can find, due to my chronic money shortage. >If you have a good money supply, you should get a clean sinewave inverter. >If you have a chronic money shortage, you will have to settle for a dirty >inverter/UPS. A dirty inverter means having to adjust to the requirement >of watching out what you buy however. Except for clocks (and things with >clocks) most stuff run fine on a dirty (modified sinewave) inverter. I >like dirty inverters but if I had a money well pumping out Susie B solid >dollars by the barrel I would go with a clean one. My UPS is very dirty, >40 HZ squarewave! >Q: Do computers run on dirty power? >A: Yes. The average PC will work nicely on a dirty inverter. However, >beware of laser printers. Those like LOTS of clean power. If you can >afford a laser printer, chances are you can afford a clean inverter. >—end— >All comments are welcome. >– >CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680 > First Law of Economics: You can’t sell product to people without money. >4462880 bytes of spam mail deleted.           http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/

Response:

This is a .FAQ about the idea of taking a computer UPS and modifying it for blackout-proofing. This is the first version of an obvious work in progress. —begin—            The Modified UPS Frequently Asked Questions File. v.1.0 This .FAQ file concerns the act of modifying a computer Uninterruptible Power Supply for the purpose of having a longer run-time or faster charging or both. Essentially this covers the idea of taking a UPS and modifying it in a way for protection for blackouts for emergency power. DISCLAIMER: The author/coder assumes no liability for any damages resulting from the use, misuse, or abuse of the information contained herein, nor for collateral damages resulting from the use, misuse, or abuse thereof. This incluse but not limited to equipment failures, lost data, fires, or injuries. You use at your own risk. Now that the legal stuff is taken care of, I shall explain why I wrote/coded this .FAQ file. Back in the summer of Y2K-2 (1998) in Chicago, our power company warned the Chicago area that rolling blackouts may occur as they had some nuke plants down for maintenance. Becuse my neighbourhood had frequent blackouts I wasn’t happy to say the least. Unlike the Jobs(tm) thing, I decided to take matters into my own hands and build an emergency power supply. I did just that. I over time (and some money wastage) built a UPS that has 500 watts and can go for 3 hours. Not bad, eh? This .FAQ file is the result of my expierences with my machinery and my time in alt.energy.homepower where off-grid power comes up as the topic. As far as I know, I was the first one to intentionally buy a UPS for consumer use to modify it for blackout-proofing. I was always a fan of electrical technology. I always liked playing with electricity and I have a decent safety record for my personal experimentation. Becuse I tend to "fly by the seat of my pants" so to speak, it’s good to know electricity first! Q: What’s wrong with normal UPSes? A: The average UPS for the average consumer is meant for a few minutes of power, just enough to save a file then cut off the computer and the UPS. If that’s all you want, that’s just fine. You can blow only $90 and get one. You get like 10 minutes of power to the computer which is enough to save a file and then some. As you can imagine, this wouldn’t be useful for those "mission-critical" mainframes or the like. But for most people, this will work fine to save a file. However, this only saves the file. But what about sitting around the house bored and sweaty? Q: So what if you get sweaty? A: Well, the UPS isn’t a UPS, is it? That’s why I own a 500 watter that runs for hours! I can at least run a fan, as well as a light and my computer… and my car stereo! Q: OK, I’ve got this 1,000 watter that has a dead battery and I like this idea. How do I hook up bigger batteries to run for hours? A: This is why I wrote this .FAQ file. In my case I took an old 500 watt UPS and modified it to use an external battery. First you need to find out the original battery’s voltage. In my case I was able to tell my UPS takes 24 volts. I examined the battery pack and figured it out. It took 4 batteries of 6 volts each in series. In early times with a cheap consumer UPS I found it took a 12 volt battery by counting the seams of plastic separating the lead-scid cells of the battery. Most UPSes use lead-acid batteries much like a car but sealed. I took jumper cables and made holes in the case and ran them to the battery in question. Q: Your current UPS takes 24 volts. How do you make it with batteries? A: I hooked 2 12 volt marine/RV batteries in series and the UPS has the jumpers coming out of the intentional holes. Thus, I clip the jumpers to the 2 poles nicely. Come a blackout, it runs. Q: Aren’t the batteries a lot bigger than the original? A: Yes, by a large margin. By my extimates, about 10 times bigger if not more. If I had the money, I’d expand it! Q: Doen’t the original charger not charge them up right? A: Yes, that is a problem. This is why I use a car battery charger. Q: But wait! Doesn’t your car charger only charge 12 volts not 24 volts? A: Yes! That’s why I devised a system using relays so as to charge each battery one after a time. I use relays in my system to remote-control the changing of the clips from one battery to the other. That way, I can interface the car charger to the UPS for quicker charging after the blackout. The only problem is that at this time I must manually control the switches that control the relays in question. I have a third relay for blackout simulation, controlled by a separate switch. Q: So, why do you like 24 volts? A: There are two reasons. First, there’s that current infrastructure where I get 12 volt parts and that smaller wires are needed for 24 volts at a given power. At 500 watts, you’re talking 25 amps assuming some losses while at 12 volts you need 50. Although I use jumper cable wiring, smaller wire can be used at 25 amps and still not overheat. For battery charging, there’s an issue of some UPSes being sensitive to external chargers. With my setup, only half the battery cache is on charge at any time. Cheap UPSes will often trip off if you apply external charging. I adopted 24 volts as a standard as it’s rather common and you can by a centre-tap adapt 12 volt stuff. Just be careful about grounding. Q: Can you set up a bigger system for better run-time? A: Yes, and I’m planning on upgrading. I want a run-time of 10 hours at full power. That’ll take care of the garden-variety blackouts nicely. It’s probably best to design for a full-power run-time of half a day at least. Except for extreme cases, that’ll handle most blackouts nicely. Q: Can you parallel batteries in a large battery bank? A: Yes and no. When possible, it’s best to avoid paralleling battery caches. Instead, it’s better to buy the batteries with the desired amp-hour rating in the first place. For large ratings, you’ll have to get industrial batteries, like the ones used onboard electric forklifts. These are some MASSIVE "muthuhs". One case where you have no choice but to parallel is the case of an apartment dweller. After all, you have to get the batteries up the stairs. Depending on your strength, a 70 pound cell should be manmageable. For 24 volts, figure on carrying 12 cells up the stairs to assemble the battery on-site. Future movers will HATE you! Q: Do landlords allow large batteries? A: So far, us UPSers are rare, so the default Lease has nothing to prevent it. This is unlike waterbeds, which most leases ban. Q: What about the actual weight of the battery pack? A: This is a good question. This is a good concern as it would be rather embarassing to have your battery cache fall through the floor! Happily, the average apartment will handle quite a bit of a weight load. For best results, you place the battery cache against a load-bearing wall. The average human weighs 200 pounds, and the average car battery or equivalent weight battery will weigh 70 pounds. You get 3 batteries to the human, so if you can have 5 humans you can have 15 batteries easally. The biggest problem is getting the cache up the stairs (and later moving). Q: What are the best UPSes/inverters to get? A: I use the cheapest gear I can find, due to my chronic money shortage. If you have a good money supply, you should get a clean sinewave inverter. If you have a chronic money shortage, you will have to settle for a dirty inverter/UPS. A dirty inverter means having to adjust to the requirement of watching out what you buy however. Except for clocks (and things with clocks) most stuff run fine on a dirty (modified sinewave) inverter. I like dirty inverters but if I had a money well pumping out Susie B solid dollars by the barrel I would go with a clean one. My UPS is very dirty, 40 HZ squarewave! Q: Do computers run on dirty power? A: Yes. The average PC will work nicely on a dirty inverter. However, beware of laser printers. Those like LOTS of clean power. If you can afford a laser printer, chances are you can afford a clean inverter. —end— All comments are welcome. — CAUTION: Email Spam Killer in use. Leave this line in your reply! 152680  First Law of Economics: You can’t sell product to people without money. 4462880 bytes of spam mail deleted.           http://www.wwa.com/~nospam/

Response: