Consumer Homes.

Question:

Just curious if anyone has been using the 1-Wire sensors for monitoring their collector temps via the PC? The 1-Wire system is a neat simple setup that allows you to connect multiple sensors along a single cable run.  You can get a variety of sensors but the temp ones are simplest.  They also have USB and Serial adapters to allow easy connection to PC. I got a couple free samples of the temp sensors and a USB adapter from Dallas Semiconductors.  You can learn more about it here: http://www.maxim-ic.com/1-Wire.cfm Lots of folks use these for weather stations as you can buy full weather monitoring kits. I’m hoping to come up with just a simple logging program to track the in/out temps of my collector and log them to a website to database.

Response:

>..The 1-Wire system is a neat simple setup that allows you to connect multiple >sensors along a single cable run…. >I’m hoping to come up with just a simple logging program to track the in/out >temps of my collector and log them to a website to database.

Check the maximum safe temperature for those sensors and then figure what the maximum temperature might be in your collector in summer time during a power failure so no air is circulating.  You might find that the stagnation temperature of the collector will "cook" your solid-state electronics, particularly if the collector is double-glazed. -Robert Scott  Ypsilanti, Michigan

Response:

Hence why I am planning to read the in and out temps, not collector temp. Plus I plan to cover my collector in summer to avoid extreme temps when not in use. DS1820 Operating Temperature Range -55C to +125C

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->..The 1-Wire system is a neat simple setup that allows you to connect >multiple >sensors along a single cable run…. >I’m hoping to come up with just a simple logging program to track the >in/out >temps of my collector and log them to a website to database. > Check the maximum safe temperature for those sensors and then figure > what the maximum temperature might be in your collector in summer time > during a power failure so no air is circulating.  You might find that > the stagnation temperature of the collector will "cook" your > solid-state electronics, particularly if the collector is > double-glazed. > -Robert Scott > Ypsilanti, Michigan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just curious if anyone has been using the 1-Wire sensors for monitoring > their collector temps via the PC? > The 1-Wire system is a neat simple setup that allows you to connect > multiple sensors along a single cable run.  You can get a variety of > sensors but the temp ones are simplest.  They also have USB and Serial > adapters to allow easy connection to PC. > I got a couple free samples of the temp sensors and a USB adapter from > Dallas Semiconductors.  You can learn more about it here: > http://www.maxim-ic.com/1-Wire.cfm > Lots of folks use these for weather stations as you can buy full weather > monitoring kits. > I’m hoping to come up with just a simple logging program to track the > in/out temps of my collector and log them to a website to database.

Not on solar collectors, but I do have several installed in/around the house monitoring other things.  Attic/eaves temperatures, forced-air furnace supply/return, outdoors, GFX heat-exchanger performance to name a few. They also make sensors for monitoring simple analog voltages so if you are handy with a soldering iron and can ‘home-brew’ sensors of another type, it makes interfacing to a computer pretty easy. I use a Linux system to monitor them.  A USB interface and the Debian installation with USB driver available from Dallas’s software developer area.  My setup samples the devices about once a second, but uses a data compression routine known as ’swinging door’ to avoid repeatedly storing the same temperature over and over.  This makes for good reproduction of the temperature profile with minimal amount of storage.  When I get ‘curious’ about it, I transfer the files over to Windows XP and analyze/plot them using Excel. daestrom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Just curious if anyone has been using the 1-Wire sensors for monitoring >their collector temps via the PC? >The 1-Wire system is a neat simple setup that allows you to connect >multiple sensors along a single cable run.  You can get a variety of >sensors but the temp ones are simplest.  They also have USB and Serial >adapters to allow easy connection to PC. >I got a couple free samples of the temp sensors and a USB adapter from >Dallas Semiconductors.  You can learn more about it here: >http://www.maxim-ic.com/1-Wire.cfm >Lots of folks use these for weather stations as you can buy full weather >monitoring kits. >I’m hoping to come up with just a simple logging program to track the >in/out temps of my collector and log them to a website to database. > Not on solar collectors, but I do have several installed in/around the house > monitoring other things.  Attic/eaves temperatures, forced-air furnace > supply/return, outdoors, GFX heat-exchanger performance to name a few. > They also make sensors for monitoring simple analog voltages so if you are > handy with a soldering iron and can ‘home-brew’ sensors of another type, it > makes interfacing to a computer pretty easy. > I use a Linux system to monitor them.  A USB interface and the Debian > installation with USB driver available from Dallas’s software developer > area.  My setup samples the devices about once a second, but uses a data > compression routine known as ’swinging door’ to avoid repeatedly storing the > same temperature over and over.  This makes for good reproduction of the > temperature profile with minimal amount of storage.  When I get ‘curious’ > about it, I transfer the files over to Windows XP and analyze/plot them > using Excel. > daestrom

Hi, For those of us who are not that good with a soldering iron, I just would like put in a good word for the Onset Computer data loggers and sensors. I now have two of their 4 channel loggers and 8 or so sensors. On the plus side: – they are dead easy to use – good accuracy (1/4F over most of range) – fairly wide variety of sensors – no computer needed during logging (just for launch and readout) – good software to look at the data On the not so good side: – kind of expensive (especially the software)    ($90 for 4 channel logger, $30 per temp sensor, $90 for software —     cheap by "professional" data logger standards, but still kind of pricy) I had one of the loggers in a solar poly space for a couple weeks while we were away.  The neighboors dog chewed an entrance into the sunspace (nice and warm).  She chewed through the sensor cables, and left the data logger sitting in a puddle of melting snow for at least a week.  When I got back, I dried it out with a hair dryer, and spliced the wires back together, and its good as new. LabJack also offers an interesting logger. Gary — Gary www.BuildItSolar.com "Build It Yourself" Solar Projects —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

Gary, for basic temp monitoring, the 1-wire is dead easy.  The temp sensor connects with 2 wires and you can use standard RJ11 phone wire to connect it to the serial/usb  adapter.  If you can connect 2 wires then you can do it. All the sensors can run on a single cable, they all work in parallel as each has a unique ID on the network. You can also buy the sensors pre assembled and just connect them with a phone cable. Can also buy full weather kits. Few links: http://www.hobby-boards.com/catalog/main_page.php Lots of good info here on what it is, how it works, etc. http://www.aagelectronica.com/aag/index.html?target=p_1.html&lang=en-us http://www.digitemp.com/documentation.shtml http://www.maxim-ic.com/products/ibutton/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Just curious if anyone has been using the 1-Wire sensors for monitoring >>their collector temps via the PC? >>The 1-Wire system is a neat simple setup that allows you to connect >>multiple sensors along a single cable run.  You can get a variety of >>sensors but the temp ones are simplest.  They also have USB and Serial >>adapters to allow easy connection to PC. >>I got a couple free samples of the temp sensors and a USB adapter from >>Dallas Semiconductors.  You can learn more about it here: >>http://www.maxim-ic.com/1-Wire.cfm >>Lots of folks use these for weather stations as you can buy full weather >>monitoring kits. >>I’m hoping to come up with just a simple logging program to track the >>in/out temps of my collector and log them to a website to database. > Not on solar collectors, but I do have several installed in/around the > house monitoring other things.  Attic/eaves temperatures, forced-air > furnace supply/return, outdoors, GFX heat-exchanger performance to name a > few. > They also make sensors for monitoring simple analog voltages so if you > are handy with a soldering iron and can ‘home-brew’ sensors of another > type, it makes interfacing to a computer pretty easy. > I use a Linux system to monitor them.  A USB interface and the Debian > installation with USB driver available from Dallas’s software developer > area.  My setup samples the devices about once a second, but uses a data > compression routine known as ’swinging door’ to avoid repeatedly storing > the same temperature over and over.  This makes for good reproduction of > the temperature profile with minimal amount of storage.  When I get > ‘curious’ about it, I transfer the files over to Windows XP and > analyze/plot them using Excel. > daestrom > Hi, > For those of us who are not that good with a soldering iron, I just > would like put in a good word for the Onset Computer data loggers and > sensors. > I now have two of their 4 channel loggers and 8 or so sensors. > On the plus side: > – they are dead easy to use > – good accuracy (1/4F over most of range) > – fairly wide variety of sensors > – no computer needed during logging (just for launch and readout) > – good software to look at the data > On the not so good side: > – kind of expensive (especially the software) >   ($90 for 4 channel logger, $30 per temp sensor, $90 for software — >    cheap by "professional" data logger standards, but still kind of pricy) > I had one of the loggers in a solar poly space for a couple weeks while > we were away.  The neighboors dog chewed an entrance into the > sunspace (nice and warm).  She chewed through the sensor cables, and left > the data logger sitting > in a puddle of melting snow for at least a week.  When I got back, I dried > it out > with a hair dryer, and spliced the wires back together, and its good as > new. > LabJack also offers an interesting logger. > Gary > — > Gary > www.BuildItSolar.com > "Build It Yourself" Solar Projects > —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet > News==—- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ > Newsgroups > —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption > =—-

Response:

> Gary, for basic temp monitoring, the 1-wire is dead easy.  The temp sensor > connects with 2 wires and you can use standard RJ11 phone wire to connect it > to the serial/usb  adapter.  If you can connect 2 wires then you can do it.

Sounds like it might be in my skill set Do you know of any descent data plotting software for the one-wire stuff? On the snow reflection, if the collector is near vertical, you definitely get a gain from snow reflection.  I think that Nick has referenced an ASHRAE method to calculate it, but I think its of the order of 15%.  A nice free bonus, and even nicer that it mostly goes away in the summer when you don’t want it. Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> All the sensors can run on a single cable, they all work in parallel as each > has a unique ID on the network. > You can also buy the sensors pre assembled and just connect them with a > phone cable. > Can also buy full weather kits. > Few links: > http://www.hobby-boards.com/catalog/main_page.php > Lots of good info here on what it is, how it works, etc. > http://www.aagelectronica.com/aag/index.html?target=p_1.html&lang=en-us > http://www.digitemp.com/documentation.shtml > http://www.maxim-ic.com/products/ibutton/ >>>Just curious if anyone has been using the 1-Wire sensors for monitoring >>>their collector temps via the PC? >>>The 1-Wire system is a neat simple setup that allows you to connect >>>multiple sensors along a single cable run.  You can get a variety of >>>sensors but the temp ones are simplest.  They also have USB and Serial >>>adapters to allow easy connection to PC. >>>I got a couple free samples of the temp sensors and a USB adapter from >>>Dallas Semiconductors.  You can learn more about it here: >>>http://www.maxim-ic.com/1-Wire.cfm >>>Lots of folks use these for weather stations as you can buy full weather >>>monitoring kits. >>>I’m hoping to come up with just a simple logging program to track the >>>in/out temps of my collector and log them to a website to database. >>Not on solar collectors, but I do have several installed in/around the >>house monitoring other things.  Attic/eaves temperatures, forced-air >>furnace supply/return, outdoors, GFX heat-exchanger performance to name a >>few. >>They also make sensors for monitoring simple analog voltages so if you >>are handy with a soldering iron and can ‘home-brew’ sensors of another >>type, it makes interfacing to a computer pretty easy. >>I use a Linux system to monitor them.  A USB interface and the Debian >>installation with USB driver available from Dallas’s software developer >>area.  My setup samples the devices about once a second, but uses a data >>compression routine known as ’swinging door’ to avoid repeatedly storing >>the same temperature over and over.  This makes for good reproduction of >>the temperature profile with minimal amount of storage.  When I get >>’curious’ about it, I transfer the files over to Windows XP and >>analyze/plot them using Excel. >>daestrom >Hi, >For those of us who are not that good with a soldering iron, I just >would like put in a good word for the Onset Computer data loggers and >sensors. >I now have two of their 4 channel loggers and 8 or so sensors. >On the plus side: >- they are dead easy to use >- good accuracy (1/4F over most of range) >- fairly wide variety of sensors >- no computer needed during logging (just for launch and readout) >- good software to look at the data >On the not so good side: >- kind of expensive (especially the software) >  ($90 for 4 channel logger, $30 per temp sensor, $90 for software — >   cheap by "professional" data logger standards, but still kind of pricy) >I had one of the loggers in a solar poly space for a couple weeks while >we were away.  The neighboors dog chewed an entrance into the >sunspace (nice and warm).  She chewed through the sensor cables, and left >the data logger sitting >in a puddle of melting snow for at least a week.  When I got back, I dried >it out >with a hair dryer, and spliced the wires back together, and its good as >new. >LabJack also offers an interesting logger. >Gary >– >Gary >www.BuildItSolar.com >"Build It Yourself" Solar Projects >—-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet >News==—- >http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ >Newsgroups >—-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption >=—-

– Gary www.BuildItSolar.com "Build It Yourself" Solar Projects —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

There is a .NET object to reference to get that data, from there you can do anything you want with it in VB.NET I have charting controls but not freeware.  Not sure if there is any good free plotting controls offhand. There are some complete applications however for handling 1-wrie.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gary, for basic temp monitoring, the 1-wire is dead easy.  The temp > sensor connects with 2 wires and you can use standard RJ11 phone wire to > connect it to the serial/usb  adapter.  If you can connect 2 wires then > you can do it. > Sounds like it might be in my skill set > Do you know of any descent data plotting software for the one-wire stuff? > On the snow reflection, if the collector is near vertical, you definitely > get > a gain from snow reflection.  I think that Nick has referenced an ASHRAE > method to > calculate it, but I think its of the order of 15%.  A nice free bonus, and > even > nicer that it mostly goes away in the summer when you don’t want it. > Gary > All the sensors can run on a single cable, they all work in parallel as > each has a unique ID on the network. > You can also buy the sensors pre assembled and just connect them with a > phone cable. > Can also buy full weather kits. > Few links: > http://www.hobby-boards.com/catalog/main_page.php > Lots of good info here on what it is, how it works, etc. > http://www.aagelectronica.com/aag/index.html?target=p_1.html&lang=en-us > http://www.digitemp.com/documentation.shtml > http://www.maxim-ic.com/products/ibutton/ >>>>Just curious if anyone has been using the 1-Wire sensors for monitoring >>>>their collector temps via the PC? >>>>The 1-Wire system is a neat simple setup that allows you to connect >>>>multiple sensors along a single cable run.  You can get a variety of >>>>sensors but the temp ones are simplest.  They also have USB and Serial >>>>adapters to allow easy connection to PC. >>>>I got a couple free samples of the temp sensors and a USB adapter from >>>>Dallas Semiconductors.  You can learn more about it here: >>>>http://www.maxim-ic.com/1-Wire.cfm >>>>Lots of folks use these for weather stations as you can buy full >>>>weather monitoring kits. >>>>I’m hoping to come up with just a simple logging program to track the >>>>in/out temps of my collector and log them to a website to database. >>>Not on solar collectors, but I do have several installed in/around the >>>house monitoring other things.  Attic/eaves temperatures, forced-air >>>furnace supply/return, outdoors, GFX heat-exchanger performance to name >>>a few. >>>They also make sensors for monitoring simple analog voltages so if you >>>are handy with a soldering iron and can ‘home-brew’ sensors of another >>>type, it makes interfacing to a computer pretty easy. >>>I use a Linux system to monitor them.  A USB interface and the Debian >>>installation with USB driver available from Dallas’s software developer >>>area.  My setup samples the devices about once a second, but uses a data >>>compression routine known as ’swinging door’ to avoid repeatedly storing >>>the same temperature over and over.  This makes for good reproduction of >>>the temperature profile with minimal amount of storage.  When I get >>>’curious’ about it, I transfer the files over to Windows XP and >>>analyze/plot them using Excel. >>>daestrom >>Hi, >>For those of us who are not that good with a soldering iron, I just >>would like put in a good word for the Onset Computer data loggers and >>sensors. >>I now have two of their 4 channel loggers and 8 or so sensors. >>On the plus side: >>- they are dead easy to use >>- good accuracy (1/4F over most of range) >>- fairly wide variety of sensors >>- no computer needed during logging (just for launch and readout) >>- good software to look at the data >>On the not so good side: >>- kind of expensive (especially the software) >>  ($90 for 4 channel logger, $30 per temp sensor, $90 for software — >>   cheap by "professional" data logger standards, but still kind of >> pricy) >>I had one of the loggers in a solar poly space for a couple weeks while >>we were away.  The neighboors dog chewed an entrance into the >>sunspace (nice and warm).  She chewed through the sensor cables, and left >>the data logger sitting >>in a puddle of melting snow for at least a week.  When I got back, I >>dried it out >>with a hair dryer, and spliced the wires back together, and its good as >>new. >>LabJack also offers an interesting logger. >>Gary >>– >>Gary >>www.BuildItSolar.com >>"Build It Yourself" Solar Projects >>—-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet >>News==—- >>http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ >>Newsgroups >>—-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption >>=—- > — > Gary > www.BuildItSolar.com > "Build It Yourself" Solar Projects > —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet > News==—- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ > Newsgroups > —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption > =—-

Response:

Question:

Hi, My girlfriend has been told that if you leave the central heating on low all day, it uses less energy than turning it on and off just when your home (we currently have it on for 2 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the evening). I think this is an urban myth, but I was wondering if anyone had any websites that I could check? I found some ‘myths or truths’ on http://www.natenergy.org.uk/myths.htm (http://tinyurl.com/6nol7) and it has one myth for immersion heaters, but not central heating (gas), I would have thought the same principle applies, but I just want to check to be sure. Cheers Ben

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My girlfriend has been told that if you leave the central heating on low all > day, it uses less energy than turning it on and off just when your home (we > currently have it on for 2 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the evening). > I think this is an urban myth, but I was wondering if anyone had any > websites that I could check? I found some ‘myths or truths’ on > http://www.natenergy.org.uk/myths.htm (http://tinyurl.com/6nol7) and it has > one myth for immersion heaters, but not central heating (gas), I would have > thought the same principle applies, but I just want to check to be sure. > Cheers > Ben

poke around here http://www.srpnet.com/menu/energy.aspx

Response:

It is an urban myth, with no basis in fact.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My girlfriend has been told that if you leave the central heating on low all > day, it uses less energy than turning it on and off just when your home (we > currently have it on for 2 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the evening). > I think this is an urban myth, but I was wondering if anyone had any > websites that I could check? I found some ‘myths or truths’ on > http://www.natenergy.org.uk/myths.htm (http://tinyurl.com/6nol7) and it has > one myth for immersion heaters, but not central heating (gas), I would have > thought the same principle applies, but I just want to check to be sure. > Cheers > Ben

Response:

(OP asked about whether turning central heat off when unoccupied saved or wasted money) >It is an urban myth, with no basis in fact.

In general, with one very key and one less frequent exception, turning down the thermostat when you’re gone and turning the heat back on when you walk in saves money. Think about it for a second. Take teh extreme position that you’re gone all winter and you’ve turned off the heat completely. (Draining the water pipes first, of course). No matter how much oil or gas or even electricity you use when you come back home, there’s no way you’re going to come anywhere near the hundreds of gallons you saved. Now think about just a day. As the tempreature inside the building drops and the differential between inside and outside becomes less, there’s less seepage of heat to the outside. So when the outside is at, say, 30F, you use 1/4 as much fuel keeping the inside at 40F than you do at 70F. That ten hours (which, natch, won’t usually drop all the way to 40F inside – if it does you’ve got piss poor insulation) has saved you plenty of fuel. Brining the inside back up to 70F will use some extra oil or gas or electricity, to be sure, but it’ll be less than what you’d have needed to keep it that way all day long. NOW for the exceptions:         a) electrical heat pumps only have a limited time/gradient         BTU output curve. If you try to get more heat out of it than the         heat pump can provide through the reverse-refrigeration cycle         (which could be the case when you’re trying to raise the         room temperature quickly), that’ll kick the unit [1] into         "auxilary (or "extra" or "emergency") heat mode.         What that is is simple resistance heat elements, which         gobble up PLENTY of power.         In rough general, with lots and lots and lots of variation         depending on design and the local temperatures, a heat pump         is three times as efficient as straight electrical heating.         If you’re using the auxiliary strips, you’re going to         pay through the nose.         [1] with any intelligently installed controller, you         can tell it NOT to go into reistance mode. But you’ll         find yourself waiting a _long_ time for the indoor         temperature to rise.         b) some areas use "time of day" electrical rates, so         if you’re pulling more power during "peak" periods         you’re paying extra. In those cases it’s worth raising         the temperature a bit (or maintaining it..) during         lower cost times. — Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My girlfriend has been told that if you leave the central heating on low > all > day, it uses less energy than turning it on and off just when your home > (we > currently have it on for 2 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the > evening). > I think this is an urban myth, but I was wondering if anyone had any > websites that I could check? I found some ‘myths or truths’ on > http://www.natenergy.org.uk/myths.htm (http://tinyurl.com/6nol7) and it > has > one myth for immersion heaters, but not central heating (gas), I would > have > thought the same principle applies, but I just want to check to be sure. > Cheers

The key is having the house temperature drop while you are away.  The heat losses from the home are directly proportional to the temperature difference between inside and outside.  So if you’re away long enough for the house to cool down appreciably, then the house stops loosing as much heat. Yes, it will take some amount of energy to heat the house back up to a comfortable temperature when you return, but there is a net savings.  The amount varies depending on a lot of factors.  If your house has so much thermal capacitance that it doesn’t cool down very much while you’re gone, then you don’t save as much. daestrom

Response:

Hi Ben; > My girlfriend has been told that if you leave the central heating on low all > day, it uses less energy than turning it on and off just when your home (we > currently have it on for 2 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the evening). > I think this is an urban myth,

This has been beat to death over the years. She’s wrong your right.  > but I was wondering if anyone had any > websites that I could check? I found some ‘myths or truths’ on > http://www.natenergy.org.uk/myths.htm (http://tinyurl.com/6nol7) and it has > one myth for immersion heaters, but not central heating (gas), I would have > thought the same principle applies, but I just want to check to be sure. > Cheers > Ben

Duane —      Home of the $35 Solar Tracker      Receiver     http://www.redrok.com/electron.htm#led3X [*]    Powered by                          //|   Thermonuclear   Solar Energy from the Sun / | Energy (the SUN)                  /  /  | Red Rock Energy                   /   /   | Duane C. Johnson   Designer      /   /    | 1825 Florence St  Heliostat,Control,& Mounts | White Bear Lake, Minnesota    ===   /    | USA      55110-3364                ===     | (651)426-4766        use Courier New Font  | http://www.redrok.com  (Web site)          ===

Response:

Depends on how long you’re gone. If you turn the heating all the way off, your house and everything in it will eventually cool off until eventually ambient (outside) temperature is reached. When you get home, all that mass has to warmed up to the temperature you want. This costs al lot of energy. So, I do it like this: when I know I’ll be gone a short time (say, 1 – 4 hours) I’ll just lower the temperature on the thermostat. When I’ll be gone for longer than that I’ll turn it all the way off. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi, > My girlfriend has been told that if you leave the central heating on low all > day, it uses less energy than turning it on and off just when your home (we > currently have it on for 2 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the evening). > I think this is an urban myth, but I was wondering if anyone had any > websites that I could check? I found some ‘myths or truths’ on > http://www.natenergy.org.uk/myths.htm (http://tinyurl.com/6nol7) and it has > one myth for immersion heaters, but not central heating (gas), I would have > thought the same principle applies, but I just want to check to be sure. > Cheers > Ben

Response:

>Depends on how long you’re gone…

No. Turning the heat off saves energy, no matter how briefly. Nick

Response:

> poke around here > http://www.srpnet.com/menu/energy.aspx

Thanks, I’ll take a look! Ben

Response:

Hi Duane, > This has been beat to death over the years. > She’s wrong your right.

I thought so, (I usually am }:-) ) I just wanted some facts I could show her to prove the point. Cheers Ben

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The key is having the house temperature drop while you are away.  The heat > losses from the home are directly proportional to the temperature difference > between inside and outside.  So if you’re away long enough for the house to > cool down appreciably, then the house stops loosing as much heat. > Yes, it will take some amount of energy to heat the house back up to a > comfortable temperature when you return, but there is a net savings.  The > amount varies depending on a lot of factors.  If your house has so much > thermal capacitance that it doesn’t cool down very much while you’re gone, > then you don’t save as much. > daestrom

Hi Daestrom, Thanks for the reply. We live in a 2 bed semi detached, and when we first moved in I made sure I added a 2nd layer of insulation in the loft (its so cheap to do now a days its silly not to), so it doesn’t cool down very fast. In fact I usually try to leave the heating off unless its going to be colder than usual! I’m also looking at replacing our 15yo+ boiler with a new combi boiler, and putting some TRVs on the radiators, which should save some more money! Cheers Ben

Response:

> Hi Duane, > This has been beat to death over the years. > She’s wrong your right. > I thought so, (I usually am }:-) ) I just wanted some facts I could show her > to prove the point. > Cheers > Ben

SO what facts are you going to present to her? Something you got from a newsgroup is not a fact, it’s opinion!

Response:

Turning it completely off and living outside saves energy also. That is sometimes ridiculous. On a mild day your furnace may not run for a few hours. Turning it off for that few hours saves nothing. The recovery can cost just as much as the amount saved and you have to walk around on cold floors and deal with cold furniture for hours, depending on how far the temp falls.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Depends on how long you’re gone… > No. Turning the heat off saves energy, no matter how briefly. > Nick

Response:

> My girlfriend has been told that if you leave the central heating on low all > day, it uses less energy than turning it on and off just when your home

Not good getting in the habit of turning off your furnace where the climate can freeze your pipes / "Gee honey, did you turn the furnace down or off before we left on vacation??" :O/

Response:

I always turn my furnace down to about 60 degress and then put the back up heat on (gas fireplace) at a low temp to give a redundancy to help protect against that kind of severe damage. It ain’t pretty and not worth any power saving ever.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My girlfriend has been told that if you leave the central heating on low all > day, it uses less energy than turning it on and off just when your home > Not good getting in the habit of turning off your furnace where the > climate can freeze your pipes / "Gee honey, did you turn the furnace > down or off before we left on vacation??" :O/

Response:

>On a mild day your furnace may not run for a few hours. Turning it off for >that few hours saves nothing…

That seems incorrect, statistically-speaking. BTW, what’s a TRV? Nick

Response:

>On a mild day your furnace may not run for a few hours. Turning it off for >that few hours saves nothing… > That seems incorrect, statistically-speaking. BTW, what’s a TRV? > Nick

Its a Thermostatic Radiator Valve. You fit one on each radiator, so the flow can be controlled independently. Screwfix have them for about

Question:

how much more efficient is a variable speed dc furnace motor? what is an appropriate duty cycle, 10%? if you figured you ran it all day every day for 6 months of the year, that would be 2.4 *365/2 = 438 hours/year how long would the furnace have to last to pay the extra $400 that a variable speed motor costs over an AC single speed one? thanks

Response:

Duty cycle depends on your house and how your unit is sized and location, how much you use the system. Ive looked into it and I will get a 5-6 yr payback at 0.12 Kwh. Your payback will be based upon how many hours you run and your Kwh cost. At full speed a lennox will consume apx 40-50%  less, I have consumption sheets from lennox and carrier. But get the 10 yr warranty, they do break. Advantages are it can be run very slow to remove more humidity in summer and be run off their humidistat.

Response:

>how much more efficient is a variable speed dc furnace motor? >what is an appropriate duty cycle, 10%? >if you figured you ran it all day every day for 6 months of the year, >that would be 2.4 *365/2 = 438 hours/year >how long would the furnace have to last to pay the extra $400 that a >variable speed motor costs over an AC single speed one? >thanks

 I run my fan on low 24/7 – and the DC motor on my Tempstar draws roughly 50 watts on low. My 2 speed AC fan drew over 100 watts. On high, the DC motor also draws less than half the power. Right now my furnace is running about 3 hours per day.(south central Ontario). My 30 some year old atmospheric burner equipped old furnace was much more efficient, fuel-wize, than I  thought. The new medium efficiency, 2 stage burner unit is using within a couple percent of the fuel quantity the old one did – but my hydro consumption HAS dropped. As for multi over single speed, I would not go back to a single speed blower  -  having the fan running at low speed all the time virtually eliminates cold spots, and the house feels more comfortable at a lower thermostat setting.

Response:

There is no simple answer since often you are comparing apples to grapefruit when you make such comparisons.  Fans that run on low speed all the time often make the house feel more comfortable by eliminating areas of varying temperatures, which may well allow you to reduce the themostat setting. The fact is that regardless of what type of motor you use, moving X amount of air will cost you about the same amount of energy.  Most of the money saved with variable speed or 2 speed fans is because you move less air when its running at a lower speed.

Response:

I have a 3 speed Lennox furnace fan. How many speeds do yo need? Mine runs on a cycler program on low speed when not in use. It runs on a half an hour cycle a few times during the day if nobody is home and more often during select times when people are home. Most of the night when people are present also.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->how much more efficient is a variable speed dc furnace motor? >what is an appropriate duty cycle, 10%? >if you figured you ran it all day every day for 6 months of the year, >that would be 2.4 *365/2 = 438 hours/year >how long would the furnace have to last to pay the extra $400 that a >variable speed motor costs over an AC single speed one? >thanks >  I run my fan on low 24/7 – and the DC motor on my Tempstar draws > roughly 50 watts on low. My 2 speed AC fan drew over 100 watts. > On high, the DC motor also draws less than half the power. Right now > my furnace is running about 3 hours per day.(south central Ontario). > My 30 some year old atmospheric burner equipped old furnace was much > more efficient, fuel-wize, than I  thought. The new medium efficiency, > 2 stage burner unit is using within a couple percent of the fuel > quantity the old one did – but my hydro consumption HAS dropped. > As for multi over single speed, I would not go back to a single speed > blower  -  having the fan running at low speed all the time virtually > eliminates cold spots, and the house feels more comfortable at a lower > thermostat setting.

Response:

VS DC motors do move more air for less watts consumed apx 40-50 % more. Factory  spec sheets from Lennox and Carrier  define exact watt and Cfm rating comparisons .  Payback can be 2-7 years depending on Kwh cost and yearly run time. My payback may be 5 yrs, but Electricity is going up.

Response:

> how much more efficient is a variable speed dc furnace motor? > what is an appropriate duty cycle, 10%? > if you figured you ran it all day every day for 6 months of the year, > that would be 2.4 *365/2 = 438 hours/year > how long would the furnace have to last to pay the extra $400 that a > variable speed motor costs over an AC single speed one? > thanks

Here is a decent technical article about this subject. http://www.homeenergy.org/20-6.html Still "ain’t" going to answer your question directly, but may give you some more ideas to figure it out for your case.

Response:

Question:

Hello, I was wondering if anybody had experience running much larger batteries on computer UPS (uninterruptible power supplies) I have a wood fired boiler that only uses small circulator pumps. An outage on a full load of wood means at the very least scaling hot water spraying out the relief valve and all over the garage, so I’d like to avoid that. The particular UPS I’m looking at is a beast that rates double what the circulator pumps draw (I have no blower as it’s wood fired). It’s also a damn good deal at a hundred bucks for true sine wave output.  It’s internal batteries are two 11 AH 12 volts in series for 24 volts. I’d like to hook my two 12V deep cycles up to it (80 AH each) instead. Any thoughts? I have no idea how they determine battery life or when the battery needs replacing (I replaced a 7 AH 12V one here at work, and took the "bad" battery home where it continues to run like a champ) Thoughts? Andy

Response:

I built my own with a motorcycle battery, a 300 watt inverter, and a 3 stage charger. The whole thing came to less than $100, but much longer run time than a UPS. It’s a true "online" unit, not a "backup" unit, in that the load is always powered by the inverter. I did this to cover the short switchover between our generator and house inverter. That was enough to cause the satellite to lose sync. Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust http://www.green-trust.org – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hello, > I was wondering if anybody had experience running much larger batteries on > computer UPS (uninterruptible power supplies) I have a wood fired boiler > that only uses small circulator pumps. An outage on a full load of wood > means at the very least scaling hot water spraying out the relief valve and > all over the garage, so I’d like to avoid that. The particular UPS I’m > looking at is a beast that rates double what the circulator pumps draw (I > have no blower as it’s wood fired). It’s also a damn good deal at a hundred > bucks for true sine wave output.  It’s internal batteries are two 11 AH 12 > volts in series for 24 volts. I’d like to hook my two 12V deep cycles up to > it (80 AH each) instead. Any thoughts? I have no idea how they determine > battery life or when the battery needs replacing (I replaced a 7 AH 12V one > here at work, and took the "bad" battery home where it continues to run like > a champ) > Thoughts? > Andy

Response:

> I built my own with a motorcycle battery, a 300 watt inverter, and a 3 > stage charger. The whole thing came to less than $100, but much longer > run time than a UPS. It’s a true "online" unit, not a "backup" unit, in > that the load is always powered by the inverter. I did this to cover the > short switchover between our generator and house inverter. That was > enough to cause the satellite to lose sync. > Steve Spence > Dir., Green Trust > http://www.green-trust.org

I like this idea, thanks for sharing.

Response:

> I built my own with a motorcycle battery, a 300 watt inverter, and a 3 > stage charger. The whole thing came to less than $100, but much longer > run time than a UPS. It’s a true "online" unit, not a "backup" unit, in > that the load is always powered by the inverter. I did this to cover the > short switchover between our generator and house inverter. That was > enough to cause the satellite to lose sync. > Steve Spence > Dir., Green Trust > http://www.green-trust.org

I know a furnace doesn’t really care all that much, but I’m kind of worried about the crappy quality of the inverter’s "modified sine wave" power which is just a crappy square wave and how induction motors deal with that (power factor issues I’m sure) Also is the fact that… say you’re drawing a 300 watt load for your online system, your battery charger would need to put out 30 amps. I know they exist, but it’s easy to get in to high amperage situations here where your charger just can’t keep up. A recent setup I had used a 4 pole, double throw relay. It was actuated by the incoming line. When the coil was energized, it hooked the main up to the furnace and all was good. When power dropped out, the coil went dead, and the line connection went to normally open. Normally closed hooked the furnace to the inverter, and one of the un-used poles on the relay turned the inverter on. Worked great for the two times that I tested it, then the MOSFETS feeding the main transformers in the inverter EXPLODED, plus did evil things to the chip that provided their clock signal, soooo I couldn’t simply replace the mosfets, as it would causee a shoot-thru situation and promptly blow them up. POOF!! Bought a new inverter. Praying for now that the power goes out when I’m home so I can manually switch it. Andy

Response:

30 amp auto chargers are very available. If your load isn’t a 24/7 load, then a smaller charger will suffice. These MSW inverters are fine for electronics and lighting, but motors and such would need something better. SW inverters are available as well, for more $$$. Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust http://www.green-trust.org – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I built my own with a motorcycle battery, a 300 watt inverter, and a 3 >>stage charger. The whole thing came to less than $100, but much longer >>run time than a UPS. It’s a true "online" unit, not a "backup" unit, in >>that the load is always powered by the inverter. I did this to cover the >>short switchover between our generator and house inverter. That was >>enough to cause the satellite to lose sync. >>Steve Spence >>Dir., Green Trust >>http://www.green-trust.org > I know a furnace doesn’t really care all that much, but I’m kind of worried > about the crappy quality of the inverter’s "modified sine wave" power which > is just a crappy square wave and how induction motors deal with that (power > factor issues I’m sure) > Also is the fact that… say you’re drawing a 300 watt load for your online > system, your battery charger would need to put out 30 amps. I know they > exist, but it’s easy to get in to high amperage situations here where your > charger just can’t keep up. > A recent setup I had used a 4 pole, double throw relay. It was actuated by > the incoming line. When the coil was energized, it hooked the main up to the > furnace and all was good. When power dropped out, the coil went dead, and > the line connection went to normally open. Normally closed hooked the > furnace to the inverter, and one of the un-used poles on the relay turned > the inverter on. > Worked great for the two times that I tested it, then the MOSFETS feeding > the main transformers in the inverter EXPLODED, plus did evil things to the > chip that provided their clock signal, soooo I couldn’t simply replace the > mosfets, as it would causee a shoot-thru situation and promptly blow them > up. POOF!! > Bought a new inverter. Praying for now that the power goes out when I’m home > so I can manually switch it. > Andy

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hello, >I was wondering if anybody had experience running much larger batteries on >computer UPS (uninterruptible power supplies) I have a wood fired boiler >that only uses small circulator pumps. An outage on a full load of wood >means at the very least scaling hot water spraying out the relief valve and >all over the garage, so I’d like to avoid that. The particular UPS I’m >looking at is a beast that rates double what the circulator pumps draw (I >have no blower as it’s wood fired). It’s also a damn good deal at a hundred >bucks for true sine wave output.  It’s internal batteries are two 11 AH 12 >volts in series for 24 volts. I’d like to hook my two 12V deep cycles up to >it (80 AH each) instead. Any thoughts? I have no idea how they determine >battery life or when the battery needs replacing (I replaced a 7 AH 12V one >here at work, and took the "bad" battery home where it continues to run like >a champ) >Thoughts? >Andy

 Will work just fine as long as you install an extra automatic battery charger – as the charger in the UPS is quite likely to have a problem with the big batteries after a sustained outage.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello, > I was wondering if anybody had experience running much larger batteries on > computer UPS >I have such experience. I tried this with a ferrups UPS that I found >on a curb someplace. Put in a bigger battery. It blew the charger. I >did not care much about that, because I wanted to use the UPS as a >huge inverter, but I was a little upset. >(uninterruptible power supplies) I have a wood fired boiler > that only uses small circulator pumps. An outage on a full load of wood > means at the very least scaling hot water spraying out the relief valve and > all over the garage, so I’d like to avoid that. The particular UPS I’m > looking at is a beast that rates double what the circulator pumps draw (I > have no blower as it’s wood fired). It’s also a damn good deal at a hundred > bucks for true sine wave output.  It’s internal batteries are two 11 AH 12 > volts in series for 24 volts. I’d like to hook my two 12V deep cycles up to > it (80 AH each) instead. Any thoughts? I have no idea how they determine > battery life or when the battery needs replacing (I replaced a 7 AH 12V one > here at work, and took the "bad" battery home where it continues to run like > a champ) >I would certainly advise against doing it with a ferrups unit… >i

A Ferrups is extremely inefficient. The resonant core runs very warm, even without a load.

Response:

>Hello, >I was wondering if anybody had experience running much larger batteries on >computer UPS (uninterruptible power supplies) I have a wood fired boiler >that only uses small circulator pumps. An outage on a full load of wood >means at the very least scaling hot water spraying out the relief valve and >all over the garage, so I’d like to avoid that. The particular UPS I’m >looking at is a beast that rates double what the circulator pumps draw (I >have no blower as it’s wood fired). It’s also a damn good deal at a hundred >bucks for true sine wave output.  It’s internal batteries are two 11 AH 12 >volts in series for 24 volts. I’d like to hook my two 12V deep cycles up to >it (80 AH each) instead. Any thoughts? I have no idea how they determine

   You’ll need to install extra cooling fans and provide extra openings in the case.  Most UPS’s are designed for short term use only. Hence the relatively small batteries and limited cooling.   I would also stick to the same Battery technology that was originally in the UPS.. (Gel cell.).  Note: Most marine stores carry Large 12V gel cell bat’s .   >battery life or when the battery needs replacing (I replaced a 7 AH 12V one >here at work, and took the "bad" battery home where it continues to run like >a champ)

All Gel cell batteries loose capacity over time and temp.    After five(5) years most have only ~40% of capacity remaining and can no longer support the UPS load.   Check out the  "FLOAT SERVICE LIFE" chart in the following link. http://www.enersysstationary.com/documents/US_NP7_12_01_1102.pdf

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I built my own with a motorcycle battery, a 300 watt inverter, and a 3 >> stage charger. The whole thing came to less than $100, but much longer >> run time than a UPS. It’s a true "online" unit, not a "backup" unit, in >> that the load is always powered by the inverter. I did this to cover the >> short switchover between our generator and house inverter. That was >> enough to cause the satellite to lose sync. >> Steve Spence >> Dir., Green Trust >> http://www.green-trust.org > I know a furnace doesn’t really care all that much, but I’m kind of worried > about the crappy quality of the inverter’s "modified sine wave" power which > is just a crappy square wave and how induction motors deal with that (power > factor issues I’m sure) > Also is the fact that… say you’re drawing a 300 watt load for your online > system, your battery charger would need to put out 30 amps. I know they > exist, but it’s easy to get in to high amperage situations here where your > charger just can’t keep up. > A recent setup I had used a 4 pole, double throw relay. It was actuated by > the incoming line. When the coil was energized, it hooked the main up to the > furnace and all was good. When power dropped out, the coil went dead, and > the line connection went to normally open. Normally closed hooked the > furnace to the inverter, and one of the un-used poles on the relay turned > the inverter on. > Worked great for the two times that I tested it, then the MOSFETS feeding > the main transformers in the inverter EXPLODED, plus did evil things to the > chip that provided their clock signal, soooo I couldn’t simply replace the > mosfets, as it would causee a shoot-thru situation and promptly blow them > up. POOF!! > Bought a new inverter. Praying for now that the power goes out when I’m home > so I can manually switch it. > Andy

I suggest you use an latching relay. Check into the GE RR-9’s and 7’s. Originally designed for lighting relays they work on 24 vdc I believe that they are rated for 20 amps 120 or 277 v. I admit that you will need to have an slightly more complex control circuit but you do not have the coil holding for extended lengths of time.  Also it is an good idea to have an timer in the circuit. Changing from one source to another instantly is an really bad idea with out synching the sources. Phase angles and all that. I watched a guy go from utility power to generator power on an 2000 ton chiller (5 kv) underload by pushing both transfer buttons at the same time. After the explosion we rebuilt the switch gear and I added an 2 minute timer in the circuit and mounted so it was un accessible if the switchgear was hot. No more midnight nonsense.

Response:

This is the UPS I’m thinking of using. http://www.opti-ups.com/ups_detail.phtml?product_id=35 NOT a cheap piece of shit for sure! MSRP is almost $800 Andy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have such experience. I tried this with a ferrups UPS that I found > on a curb someplace. Put in a bigger battery. It blew the charger. I > did not care much about that, because I wanted to use the UPS as a > huge inverter, but I was a little upset.

Response:

Ignoramus23449, I have a ferrups 1Kw, I gather as long as it has 48v in the batts the inverter part will work? I’m thinking of getting some bigger batts for it (it takes 4 X 31 amp), and was wondering how the charger would fair, can you still use it,  as per normal with out the charger working?                     Tanks Rob

Response:

>This is the UPS I’m thinking of using. >http://www.opti-ups.com/ups_detail.phtml?product_id=35 >NOT a cheap piece of shit for sure! MSRP is almost $800 >Andy

Looks like a pretty high end unit – and a true sine wave output to boot. It SHOULD work, given acceptable battery charging. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have such experience. I tried this with a ferrups UPS that I found > on a curb someplace. Put in a bigger battery. It blew the charger. I > did not care much about that, because I wanted to use the UPS as a > huge inverter, but I was a little upset.

Response:

>> This is the UPS I’m thinking of using. > http://www.opti-ups.com/ups_detail.phtml?product_id=35 > NOT a cheap piece of shit for sure! MSRP is almost $800 >This is a nice one, but my ferrups was an even more expensive one. It >blew anyway. Fortunately, I picked it up from garbage, effectively, so >I did not pay for it and I needed it for its inverter. >i > Andy

The Ferrups is a rather specialized unit and is/was expensive because of the massive resonant transformer used as a voltage regulator. With today’s intelligent buck/boost Ferros are fast falling out of favor – particularly because of their low efficiency, and particularly at low load. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I have such experience. I tried this with a ferrups UPS that I found >> on a curb someplace. Put in a bigger battery. It blew the charger. I >> did not care much about that, because I wanted to use the UPS as a >> huge inverter, but I was a little upset.

Response:

I have an APC 650 connected to a #27 115 AH marine/trolling battery.  The original battery was 7AH.  I has only been used once for about 45 minutes.  The case remained cool to the touch. It is supplying juice to a cable modem, d-link wireless router, a P-75 powered firewall PC, an AMD Barton 2600 PC and, one monitor.   The assembly was simple: 1. Drill a hole in the top of the plastic battery box, 2. remove the battery cover from the UPS, 3. fashion a patch cord with #10 wire with post connectors for the battery end and blade connectors for the UPS. 4. Place the UPS on top of the battery box and secure with a ratcheting type cargo strap, 5. Plug everything in, 6. pay your homeowner’s insurance premium.

Response:

Question:

I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves for work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs longer in the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it back. What say you all?

Response:

> I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife > insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves for > work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs longer in > the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it back. What say > you all?

The local utilities here in Phoenix have said for years  "if you can vary the temp by more than 8 degrees for more than 8 hours you can save more than 5%". I installed a set back t-stat years ago and it does help the power bill.  I tried it the manual method but that did not help at all. I would forget a lot of the time. My stat has 4 programs per day, I allow the temp to fall after 9 pm to 5 am then come on for 2 hours and then off again until 4:30 pm.  I had it hooked up to an X-10 module when I was traveling a lot so I could call from the airport and have the house almost where I liked it by the time I got home, about an hour.  It does not get real cold in Phoenix, so your operation will vary.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife > insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves for > work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs longer in > the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it back. What say > you all? > The local utilities here in Phoenix have said for years >  "if you can vary the temp by more than 8 degrees for more than 8 hours you > can save more than 5%". > I installed a set back t-stat years ago and it does help the power bill.  I > tried it the manual method but that did not help at all. I would forget a > lot of the time. > My stat has 4 programs per day, I allow the temp to fall after 9 pm to 5 am > then come on for 2 hours and then off again until 4:30 pm.  I had it hooked > up to an X-10 module when I was traveling a lot so I could call from the > airport and have the house almost where I liked it by the time I got home, > about an hour.  It does not get real cold in Phoenix, so your operation will > vary.

Not cold in Phoenix?  Gee, sorry I left! Socal, I also have a set back, and it saves about 8% over no set back. Mostly just a night reduction.  But that is the only time its cold enough to have the furnace cycle most days.

Response:

> I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife > insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves for > work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs longer in > the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it back. What say > you all?

she is right

Response:

> I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife > insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves > for work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs > longer in the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it > back. What say you all? > your wife`s opinion is based on science and common sense > your`s is not

My opinion was based on what I was told by the HVAC contractor that installed the GSHP…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife > insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves for > work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs longer in > the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it back. What say > you all? > The local utilities here in Phoenix have said for years >  "if you can vary the temp by more than 8 degrees for more than 8 hours you > can save more than 5%". > I installed a set back t-stat years ago and it does help the power bill. I > tried it the manual method but that did not help at all. I would forget a > lot of the time. > My stat has 4 programs per day, I allow the temp to fall after 9 pm to 5 am > then come on for 2 hours and then off again until 4:30 pm.  I had it hooked > up to an X-10 module when I was traveling a lot so I could call from the > airport and have the house almost where I liked it by the time I got home, > about an hour.  It does not get real cold in Phoenix, so your operation will > vary.

We have a ground source heat pump. The backup heat coil kicks in when anything above a 3 degree increase is called for. So the auto units won’t work unless we go with a 2 degree differential and I can’t imagine that would save much. We also have a substantial amount of ceramic flooring which does store some heat. It just seems like it runs much more when trying to warm things up again….

Response:

> I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife > insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves > for work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs > longer in the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it > back. What say you all?

your wife`s opinion is based on science and common sense your`s is not

Response:

> I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife > insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves for > work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs longer in > the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it back. What say > you all?

I should have given a little more information. We have a ground source heat pump with a heat recovery system for hot water needs. The water heater is on a timer so that it is only on during peak periods. So the heat pump is also warming our water during the day. The house has a full southern exposure so we are getting some passive heat. Location is southern Pennsylvania…

Response:

she is right

Response:

> she is right

Is she? I just found this. "Ground source heat pumps operate most efficiently when left at one set-point year around. If you desire a cooler temperature for sleeping, you may lower the set point a few degrees, however the heat pump may take more time to "recover" from changes in the heating setpoint than a fossil fuel burning furnace."

Response:

> I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife > insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves for > work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs longer in > the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it back. What say

If you heat with an air-source heat pump, you are right.  Anything else, she is right. sdb

Response:

>>your wife`s opinion is based on science and common sense >your`s is not > My opinion was based on what I was told by the HVAC contractor that > installed the GSHP…

In all probability, your wife is a lot smarter than an HVAC contractor. mike

Response:

You can save around 10% by setting the stat back when you’re not home or alseep. I run mine 70 daytime, 60 off hours. In my remote energy control business, I set buildings(most are manufacturers) back to 45F. They’re properly zoned out ,failsafe,etc. and enjoy saving a minimum of $1000 per heating month( 8 months of the year). This contrary to the ‘experts’( the HVAC guys,the ring bearing ‘engineers’) the local gas company…. I’ve done this for the past 20 years and everyone’s happy so far… Another way to save on energy is to have a ‘mud’ room built or a wind break(3 sides,no door on the prevailing wind side). Did this 8 years ago and according to the math on the records I kept, I’ve saved another 8%. It all helps… Jay in Greensville,Ontario

Response:

>I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife >insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves for >work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs longer in >the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it back. What say >you all?

I say a setback thermostat will make you both happy.  It’ll save some (*) money when you aren’t home and everything will be at ‘comfortable’ when you get home, so you won’t be chilly for a while after you turn it back up.  Plus you’ll never forget to set it {down,up}, and you’ll keep your wife happy.  8*) (*)  Sure, it’s all YMMV, an electric ground source heat pump with radiant flooring is different from a fossil-fueled forced hot air system, but you can’t help but save _some_ money.  You might also try setting the thermostat down a single degree and see how that helps, and if you notice…  We keep our thermostats  at 64 overnight and during the day, and 67 mornings and evenings, and we are rarely cold, as we get used to it.  The computers keep the office at 67.  8*)

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She would be correct in her assertion. The difference of indoor temperature from outdoor temperature causes the heat exchange or loss. The warmer home will exchange or loss more heat to the outdoors, while the cooler home will not loose as much. — Mark C. Mitchell

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife > insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves for > work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs longer in > the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it back. What say > you all?

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife > > insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves > for > > work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs longer > in > > the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it back. What > say > > you all? > The local utilities here in Phoenix have said for years >  "if you can vary the temp by more than 8 degrees for more than 8 hours > you > can save more than 5%". > I installed a set back t-stat years ago and it does help the power bill. > I > tried it the manual method but that did not help at all. I would forget a > lot of the time. > My stat has 4 programs per day, I allow the temp to fall after 9 pm to 5 > am > then come on for 2 hours and then off again until 4:30 pm.  I had it > hooked > up to an X-10 module when I was traveling a lot so I could call from the > airport and have the house almost where I liked it by the time I got home, > about an hour.  It does not get real cold in Phoenix, so your operation > will > vary. > We have a ground source heat pump. The backup heat coil kicks in when > anything above a 3 degree increase is called for. So the auto units won’t > work unless we go with a 2 degree differential and I can’t imagine that > would save much. We also have a substantial amount of ceramic flooring which > does store some heat. It just seems like it runs much more when trying to > warm things up again….

Sorry you forgot to mention your on an ground source heat pump. I assumed, falsely that you were using conventional means to heat and cool.. She is right.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> she is right > Is she? I just found this. > "Ground source heat pumps operate most efficiently when left at one > set-point year around. If > you desire a cooler temperature for sleeping, you may lower the set point > a > few degrees, however > the heat pump may take more time to "recover" from changes in the heating > setpoint than a fossil > fuel burning furnace."

But keep in mind, ‘more time to recover’ doesn’t automatically mean it uses more overall energy.  For example, say setting back at night you avoid cycling the heating system at all.  Then in the morning, a fossil fuel unit takes about 30 minutes to warm the house back up whereas a heat pump may have to take an hour.  But if the set-point is left up all night long so that the heat-pump cycles 10 minutes every hour for 9 hours, it would run 90 minutes. So the heat pump takes longer to recover (an hour to warm the house up vs. 30 minutes for fossil fuel), but you save 30 minutes worth of running (just 60 minutes in morning vs. 90 minutes throughout the night). Of course, YMMV, and this is just an example. daestrom

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife > > insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves > for > > work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs longer > in > > the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it back. What > say > > you all? > The local utilities here in Phoenix have said for years >  "if you can vary the temp by more than 8 degrees for more than 8 hours > you > can save more than 5%". > I installed a set back t-stat years ago and it does help the power bill. > I > tried it the manual method but that did not help at all. I would forget a > lot of the time. > My stat has 4 programs per day, I allow the temp to fall after 9 pm to 5 > am > then come on for 2 hours and then off again until 4:30 pm.  I had it > hooked > up to an X-10 module when I was traveling a lot so I could call from the > airport and have the house almost where I liked it by the time I got > home, > about an hour.  It does not get real cold in Phoenix, so your operation > will > vary. > We have a ground source heat pump. The backup heat coil kicks in when > anything above a 3 degree increase is called for.

Now THAT makes a difference.  If the backup is just resistance heating, and it kicks on when you bump the thermostat back up to ‘normal’, then you are right and she’s wrong. But why would the backup heat coil kick in at such a minor set up??  Are you sure this ‘backup heat coil’ is resistance heaters or is it another valve opening in the freon circuit? If it is a resistance heater, I’d look for a way to change this setting.  It provides a faster heat recovery, but you can walk into a warm house by programming a regular set-back thermostat to ’set-up’ a half-hour before you get home.  Resistance heating is probably the *most* expensive way to warm up the house after a set-back. daestrom

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> I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife > insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves for > work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs longer > in > the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it back. What say > If you heat with an air-source heat pump, you are right.  Anything else, > she is right.

Not if electric resistance heaters kick-in for ‘quick recovery’ when the thermostat is set back up to normal.  Having the controls switch to resistance heaters probably wastes whatever savings he would have realized from setting down for 8 hours.  Especially if the house has a lot of thermal mass so the temperature only drops four or five degrees in 8 hours. daestrom

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>…keep in mind, ‘more time to recover’ doesn’t automatically mean it uses >more overall energy.

I believe it does, unless you live in a massless house. Nick

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We do not know what his gas or electric costs are to say electric is overpriced, although for most it is. Or what kicks in for backup, when. Bottom line setbacks save if the cheapest fuel is used.

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with a ground source heat pump you wouldnt want to turn it down during the day since the ground source is much more effecient than the backup heat. with a regular furnace your wife is right, it takes less energy to warm your hose back up later in the day than it does to keep it warm all the time. the larger the temperature differential between the inside and outside temperatures, the quicker your house loses heat. think about it, as the house temperature drops to meet the outside temperature, the heat transfer would slow and eventually go to zero. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife > > insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves >for > > work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs longer >in > > the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it back. What >say > > you all? > The local utilities here in Phoenix have said for years >  "if you can vary the temp by more than 8 degrees for more than 8 hours >you > can save more than 5%". > I installed a set back t-stat years ago and it does help the power bill. >I > tried it the manual method but that did not help at all. I would forget a > lot of the time. > My stat has 4 programs per day, I allow the temp to fall after 9 pm to 5 >am > then come on for 2 hours and then off again until 4:30 pm.  I had it >hooked > up to an X-10 module when I was traveling a lot so I could call from the > airport and have the house almost where I liked it by the time I got home, > about an hour.  It does not get real cold in Phoenix, so your operation >will > vary. >We have a ground source heat pump. The backup heat coil kicks in when >anything above a 3 degree increase is called for. So the auto units won’t >work unless we go with a 2 degree differential and I can’t imagine that >would save much. We also have a substantial amount of ceramic flooring which >does store some heat. It just seems like it runs much more when trying to >warm things up again….

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you didnt mention that you had a ground source heat pump in your original question since they are not as common as conventional furnaces, may people assumed you didnt have one I would avoid using the backup heat as much as possible if you have to have the heat pump come on an hour before want the house warm, that is much better than rushing it by using the backup(conventional) heat. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I hope this group could help settle a debate in my household. My wife > > insists on turning the thermostat back in the morning when she leaves > > for work. I say it should stay at a constant temperature, as it runs > > longer in the evening to get things warmed back up when she turns it > > back. What say you all? > your wife`s opinion is based on science and common sense > your`s is not >My opinion was based on what I was told by the HVAC contractor that >installed the GSHP…

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>At first you did not say GSHP.  that is the most efficient heating >system, but even a 2f  reduction will help if a less efficient backup >does not come on.  You could try reseting it for 3 but when it is colder >out you realy dont want the backup comming on if it is another heat >source of less efficiency.  Experiment, normaly setbacks save, but for >you it wont if a more expensive secondary fuel is used. It depends on >your GSHP capacity to recover,  Btu required for your home.  So outdoor >temps will change the situation

They make smart programmable thermostats that can allow one to lower the temperature and raise it again without the aux heat kicking in.

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>…keep in mind, ‘more time to recover’ doesn’t automatically mean it uses >more overall energy. > I believe it does, unless you live in a massless house.

Would you have any evidence to support this belief??? daestrom

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Question:

Retired his lame ass. Lostpup198 "We will all be better citizens when voting records of our Congressmen are followed as carefully as scores of pro-football games." — Lou Erickson

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I thought that he was retiring soon anyhow.  Anyhow, this is what FoxNews says: "Veteran newsman Dan Rather (search) announced Tuesday that he would step down as anchor of "CBS Evening News" in March, the 24th anniversary of his taking over the job from Walter Cronkite." The intro to this story: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139391,00.html I’m glad he’s leaving, but he gets to stay until March? It sounds more like CBS is letting him finish his contract, not like they’re giving him the boot. I’d be more impressed if they took him off the air NOW. Pete >Retired his lame ass. >Lostpup198 >"We will all be better citizens when voting records of our Congressmen are >followed as carefully as scores of pro-football games." >– Lou Erickson

– One egg left?  For a nutritious breakfast, two eggs is the minimum requirement!  And I have but one, which is one shy of two!  And it is two that I need! Curses!!! –Mojo Jojo

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Refired my lame ass. > Lostpubes 1989. Bic Lighter….flatulence. THANKS A LOT MA! > "I will always be a monkey handjob ." > — Tony

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>I thought that he was retiring soon anyhow.  Anyhow, >this is what FoxNews says: "Veteran newsman Dan >Rather (search) announced Tuesday that he would >step down as anchor of "CBS Evening News" in >March, the 24th anniversary of his taking over the >job from Walter Cronkite." The intro to this story: >http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139391,00.html >I’m glad he’s leaving, but he gets to stay until March? >It sounds more like CBS is letting him finish his contract, >not like they’re giving him the boot.

Well, no, you’re wrong. Monsieur Valve says he was fired, so whatever the actual facts are, he was fired. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

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He’s *MY* Sewer first! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Well, no, you’re wrong. Monsieur Valve says > he was fired, so whatever the actual facts are, > he was fired. > The Repair Guy > http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

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> Retired his lame ass.

Far, far too late. —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups —= East/West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I thought that he was retiring soon anyhow.  Anyhow, >this is what FoxNews says: "Veteran newsman Dan >Rather (search) announced Tuesday that he would >step down as anchor of "CBS Evening News" in >March, the 24th anniversary of his taking over the >job from Walter Cronkite." The intro to this story: >http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139391,00.html >I’m glad he’s leaving, but he gets to stay until March? >It sounds more like CBS is letting him finish his contract, >not like they’re giving him the boot. >Well, no, you’re wrong. Monsieur Valve says >he was fired, so whatever the actual facts are, >he was fired. >The Repair Guy

This is my thread, not LV’s (although I will admit that he beat me to it by 1 minute … I feel like such a *network* news organization) and I never said they fired him.  I implied that they may have urged him to leave.  But fired is fired, and they didn’t fire him.  He probably doesn’t deserve to be fired for "Memo-gate" after years of good and even fair service, but his sub-par performance on election night certainly warranted it. http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blratherisms.htm "Do you hear that knocking…President Bush’s re-election is at the door." "This race is hotter than a Times Square Rolex." "His lead is as thin as turnip soup." "This race is humming along like Ray Charles." "The presidential race is swinging like Count Basie." "This race is hotter than the Devil’s anvil." "Ohio becomes like a sauna for the two candidates. All they can do is wait and sweat." "One’s reminded of that old saying, ‘Don’t taunt the alligator until after you’ve crossed the creek.’" "This situation in Ohio would give an aspirin a headache.” "Bush is sweeping through the South like a big wheel through a cotton field." "What Kerry needs at this point is the equivalent of Tom Brady coming off the bench to rescue him. But it’s still too close to call." "No question now that Kerry’s rapidly reaching the point where he’s got his back to the wall, his shirttails on fire and the bill collector’s at the door." "John Kerry needs something on the order of a 55 or 60-yard field goal to win this." (To Joe Lockhart) "I know that you’d rather walk through a furnace in a gasoline suit than consider the possibility that John Kerry would lose Ohio." (To Joe Lockhart) "What about Michigan? It’s been out there for a long time. Is that making your fingernails sweat?" "This presidential race has been crackling like a hickory fire for at least the last hour and a half." "Let’s see where it goes from here. Round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows." "We keep talking about Ohio if you’ve been tuning in and out or you put the baby to bed or you went to pop the cap on an adult, or otherwise, beverage…" "We used to say if a frog had side pockets, he’d carry a handgun." "No one is saying that George Bush is not going to win the election, and if you had to bet the double-wide, you’d have to bet that he’d win." "In southern states they beat him like a rented mule." "If you try to read the tea leaves before the cup is done you can get yourself burned." "We need Billy Crystal to Analyze This" "You know that old song, ‘it’s delightful, it’s delicious, it’s de-lovely’ for President Bush in most areas of the country." "We had a slight hitch in our giddy up, but we corrected that." "In some ways, George Bush’s lead is as thin as November ice." "Put on a cup of coffee, this race isn’t going to be over for a while." "You look at the map and say it’s all a big Bush victory. But this is one time when your Mother is right, looks can be deceiving." "John Kerry’s moon has just moved behind a cloud, as far as Florida is concerned." On Kerry’s chances: "To use a metaphor, he’s gotta draw to an inside straight. But hey, sometimes you get lucky and hit that straight." "Is it like a swan, with every feather above the water settled, but under the water paddling like crazy?" "What you have here is the football equivalent of a fourth quarter rally by Kerry." The election is "closer than Lassie and Timmy" "Keep in mind they are teetotally meetmortally convinced they have Ohio won." "Vice President Dick Cheney would not have flown all the way out there (Hawaii) overnight and put that lei around his neck and sort of hula-danced, if you will, unless he thought there was a chance of carrying that out there." "President Bush smiling there with his family. He’s laid down aces so far." "You can almost hear the GOP (deep breathing sound). We’re getting within maybe smelling distance." "We don’t know what to do. We don’t know whether to wind a watch or bark at the moon." On how the results are affecting strategists: "It’s one reason so many of them drink a lot." Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), on being congratulated on victory by Rather: "Thanks Dan, I always believe you." Rather: "Now, ladies and gentleman, if you believe that, you’ll believe rocks can grow." Lostpup198 "We will all be better citizens when voting records of our Congressmen are followed as carefully as scores of pro-football games." — Lou Erickson

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ack ack ack ack. Got a light?

I feel so, —ashamed.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I thought that he was retiring soon anyhow.  Anyhow, >>this is what FoxNews says: "Veteran newsman Dan >>Rather (search) announced Tuesday that he would >>step down as anchor of "CBS Evening News" in >>March, the 24th anniversary of his taking over the >>job from Walter Cronkite." The intro to this story: >>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139391,00.html >>I’m glad he’s leaving, but he gets to stay until March? >>It sounds more like CBS is letting him finish his contract, >>not like they’re giving him the boot. >Well, no, you’re wrong. Monsieur Valve says >he was fired, so whatever the actual facts are, >he was fired. >This is my thread, not LV’s (although I will admit that he >beat me to it by 1 minute … I feel like such a *network* >news organization) and I never said they fired him.

Right. LV’s thread was "Dan gets the boot". >I implied that they may have urged him to leave.   >But fired is fired, and they didn’t fire him.  He probably >doesn’t deserve to be fired for "Memo-gate" after >years of good and even fair service, but his sub-par >performance on election night certainly warranted it.

I didn’t watch. >http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blratherisms.htm >"Do you hear that knocking…President Bush’s re-election >is at the door."

 –snip– Some of those are pretty lame. The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Do you hear that knocking…President Bush’s re-election is at the door." >"This race is hotter than a Times Square Rolex." >"His lead is as thin as turnip soup." >"This race is humming along like Ray Charles." >"The presidential race is swinging like Count Basie." >"This race is hotter than the Devil’s anvil." >"Ohio becomes like a sauna for the two candidates. All they can do is wait and >sweat." >"One’s reminded of that old saying, ‘Don’t taunt the alligator until after >you’ve crossed the creek.’" >"This situation in Ohio would give an aspirin a headache.” >"Bush is sweeping through the South like a big wheel through a cotton field." >"What Kerry needs at this point is the equivalent of Tom Brady coming off the >bench to rescue him. But it’s still too close to call." >"No question now that Kerry’s rapidly reaching the point where he’s got his >back to the wall, his shirttails on fire and the bill collector’s at the door." >"John Kerry needs something on the order of a 55 or 60-yard field goal to win >this." >(To Joe Lockhart) "I know that you’d rather walk through a furnace in a >gasoline suit than consider the possibility that John Kerry would lose Ohio." >(To Joe Lockhart) "What about Michigan? It’s been out there for a long time. Is >that making your fingernails sweat?" >"This presidential race has been crackling like a hickory fire for at least the >last hour and a half." >"Let’s see where it goes from here. Round and round it goes, where it stops >nobody knows." >"We keep talking about Ohio if you’ve been tuning in and out or you put the >baby to bed or you went to pop the cap on an adult, or otherwise, beverage…" >"We used to say if a frog had side pockets, he’d carry a handgun." >"No one is saying that George Bush is not going to win the election, and if you >had to bet the double-wide, you’d have to bet that he’d win." >"In southern states they beat him like a rented mule." >"If you try to read the tea leaves before the cup is done you can get yourself >burned." >"We need Billy Crystal to Analyze This" >"You know that old song, ‘it’s delightful, it’s delicious, it’s de-lovely’ for >President Bush in most areas of the country." >"We had a slight hitch in our giddy up, but we corrected that." >"In some ways, George Bush’s lead is as thin as November ice." >"Put on a cup of coffee, this race isn’t going to be over for a while." >"You look at the map and say it’s all a big Bush victory. But this is one time >when your Mother is right, looks can be deceiving." >"John Kerry’s moon has just moved behind a cloud, as far as Florida is >concerned." >On Kerry’s chances: "To use a metaphor, he’s gotta draw to an inside straight. >But hey, sometimes you get lucky and hit that straight." >"Is it like a swan, with every feather above the water settled, but under the >water paddling like crazy?" >"What you have here is the football equivalent of a fourth quarter rally by >Kerry." >The election is "closer than Lassie and Timmy" >"Keep in mind they are teetotally meetmortally convinced they have Ohio won." >"Vice President Dick Cheney would not have flown all the way out there (Hawaii) >overnight and put that lei around his neck and sort of hula-danced, if you >will, unless he thought there was a chance of carrying that out there." >"President Bush smiling there with his family. He’s laid down aces so far." >"You can almost hear the GOP (deep breathing sound). We’re getting within maybe >smelling distance." >"We don’t know what to do. We don’t know whether to wind a watch or bark at the >moon." >On how the results are affecting strategists: "It’s one reason so many of them >drink a lot." >Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), on being congratulated on victory by Rather: "Thanks >Dan, I always believe you." Rather: "Now, ladies and gentleman, if you believe >that, you’ll believe rocks can grow."

Those quotes are the legacy of a blithering idiot.  Must have been something to do with the frequency he was operating on. Pete — One egg left?  For a nutritious breakfast, two eggs is the minimum requirement!  And I have but one, which is one shy of two!  And it is two that I need! Curses!!! –Mojo Jojo

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Do you hear that knocking…President Bush’s re-election is at the door." >"This race is hotter than a Times Square Rolex." >"His lead is as thin as turnip soup." >"This race is humming along like Ray Charles." >"The presidential race is swinging like Count Basie." >"This race is hotter than the Devil’s anvil." >"Ohio becomes like a sauna for the two candidates. All they can do is wait and >sweat." >"One’s reminded of that old saying, ‘Don’t taunt the alligator until after >you’ve crossed the creek.’" >"This situation in Ohio would give an aspirin a headache.” >"Bush is sweeping through the South like a big wheel through a cotton field." >"What Kerry needs at this point is the equivalent of Tom Brady coming off the >bench to rescue him. But it’s still too close to call." >"No question now that Kerry’s rapidly reaching the point where he’s got his >back to the wall, his shirttails on fire and the bill collector’s at the door." >"John Kerry needs something on the order of a 55 or 60-yard field goal to win >this." >(To Joe Lockhart) "I know that you’d rather walk through a furnace in a >gasoline suit than consider the possibility that John Kerry would lose Ohio." >(To Joe Lockhart) "What about Michigan? It’s been out there for a long time. Is >that making your fingernails sweat?" >"This presidential race has been crackling like a hickory fire for at least the >last hour and a half." >"Let’s see where it goes from here. Round and round it goes, where it stops >nobody knows." >"We keep talking about Ohio if you’ve been tuning in and out or you put the >baby to bed or you went to pop the cap on an adult, or otherwise, beverage…" >"We used to say if a frog had side pockets, he’d carry a handgun." >"No one is saying that George Bush is not going to win the election, and if you >had to bet the double-wide, you’d have to bet that he’d win." >"In southern states they beat him like a rented mule." >"If you try to read the tea leaves before the cup is done you can get yourself >burned." >"We need Billy Crystal to Analyze This" >"You know that old song, ‘it’s delightful, it’s delicious, it’s de-lovely’ for >President Bush in most areas of the country." >"We had a slight hitch in our giddy up, but we corrected that." >"In some ways, George Bush’s lead is as thin as November ice." >"Put on a cup of coffee, this race isn’t going to be over for a while." >"You look at the map and say it’s all a big Bush victory. But this is one time >when your Mother is right, looks can be deceiving." >"John Kerry’s moon has just moved behind a cloud, as far as Florida is >concerned." >On Kerry’s chances: "To use a metaphor, he’s gotta draw to an inside straight. >But hey, sometimes you get lucky and hit that straight." >"Is it like a swan, with every feather above the water settled, but under the >water paddling like crazy?" >"What you have here is the football equivalent of a fourth quarter rally by >Kerry." >The election is "closer than Lassie and Timmy" >"Keep in mind they are teetotally meetmortally convinced they have Ohio won." >"Vice President Dick Cheney would not have flown all the way out there (Hawaii) >overnight and put that lei around his neck and sort of hula-danced, if you >will, unless he thought there was a chance of carrying that out there." >"President Bush smiling there with his family. He’s laid down aces so far." >"You can almost hear the GOP (deep breathing sound). We’re getting within maybe >smelling distance." >"We don’t know what to do. We don’t know whether to wind a watch or bark at the >moon." >On how the results are affecting strategists: "It’s one reason so many of them >drink a lot." >Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), on being congratulated on victory by Rather: "Thanks >Dan, I always believe you." Rather: "Now, ladies and gentleman, if you believe >that, you’ll believe rocks can grow." >Those quotes are the legacy of a blithering idiot.  Must have been >something to do with the frequency he was operating on.

Morvo will be an upgrade. Claude

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I thought that he was retiring soon anyhow.  Anyhow, >this is what FoxNews says: "Veteran newsman Dan >Rather (search) announced Tuesday that he would >step down as anchor of "CBS Evening News" in >March, the 24th anniversary of his taking over the >job from Walter Cronkite." The intro to this story: >http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139391,00.html >I’m glad he’s leaving, but he gets to stay until March? >It sounds more like CBS is letting him finish his contract, >not like they’re giving him the boot. > Well, no, you’re wrong. Monsieur Valve says > he was fired, so whatever the actual facts are, > he was fired. > The Repair Guy > http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

His contract had two more years to run. Put your "rational discourse" in your ass, son. Lord Valve Expert

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>Put your "rational discourse" in your ass, son.

Good example.

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2.94% seperates what is and what would’ve been better. P   olluted M   ind  = G   overnment – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Those quotes are the legacy of a journalist with >40 years of experience.  I’m a troll. > Pete Off > — > One left egg!

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Re: DAN RATHER IS AT 60 MINS. DOCUMENTING BUSH!!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > What’s any of this got to do with Weblos and my orgasms anyway?

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He’s gonna be driving CBS 60 Mins. Google the legacy of reporting excellence, child – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > His contract had two more years to run. > Put your "rational discourse" in your ass, son. > Lord Valve > Expert

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41 Years as an anchor, and now he’s at…. Well, Google CBS 60 Minutes Awards ….whine in silence while listening to http://www.ksbr.net/webcast.html you dumbassed country music whore dogs from the fly over. . PS- ack ack ack ack.

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I think the guy should run for President. The Internet is now the Dan Rather alternative ! http://media.shorturl.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >I thought that he was retiring soon anyhow.  Anyhow, > >this is what FoxNews says: "Veteran newsman Dan > >Rather (search) announced Tuesday that he would > >step down as anchor of "CBS Evening News" in > >March, the 24th anniversary of his taking over the > >job from Walter Cronkite." The intro to this story: > >http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139391,00.html > >I’m glad he’s leaving, but he gets to stay until March? > >It sounds more like CBS is letting him finish his contract, > >not like they’re giving him the boot. > Well, no, you’re wrong. Monsieur Valve says > he was fired, so whatever the actual facts are, > he was fired. > The Repair Guy > http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/ >His contract had two more years to run. >Put your "rational discourse" in your ass, son. >Lord Valve >Expert

He had two years left?  OK then! I didn’t realize that. But they shouldn’t allow someone who demonstrated their lack of credibility like that to remain on the air until March. Pete — One egg left?  For a nutritious breakfast, two eggs is the minimum requirement!  And I have but one, which is one shy of two!  And it is two that I need! Curses!!! –Mojo Jojo

Response:

>Those quotes are the legacy of a blithering idiot.  Must have been >something to do with the frequency he was operating on. >Pete

Or in this case, a *blathering* idiot … >;^) Lostpup198 "We will all be better citizens when voting records of our Congressmen are followed as carefully as scores of pro-football games." — Lou Erickson

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>"Do you hear that knocking…President Bush’s re-election is at the door." >>"This race is hotter than a Times Square Rolex." >>"His lead is as thin as turnip soup." >>"This race is humming along like Ray Charles." >>"The presidential race is swinging like Count Basie." >>"This race is hotter than the Devil’s anvil." >>"Ohio becomes like a sauna for the two candidates. All they can do is wait and >>sweat." >>"One’s reminded of that old saying, ‘Don’t taunt the alligator until after >>you’ve crossed the creek.’" >>"This situation in Ohio would give an aspirin a headache.” >>"Bush is sweeping through the South like a big wheel through a cotton field." >>"What Kerry needs at this point is the equivalent of Tom Brady coming off the >>bench to rescue him. But it’s still too close to call." >>"No question now that Kerry’s rapidly reaching the point where he’s got his >>back to the wall, his shirttails on fire and the bill collector’s at the door." >>"John Kerry needs something on the order of a 55 or 60-yard field goal to win >>this." >>(To Joe Lockhart) "I know that you’d rather walk through a furnace in a >>gasoline suit than consider the possibility that John Kerry would lose Ohio." >>(To Joe Lockhart) "What about Michigan? It’s been out there for a long time. Is >>that making your fingernails sweat?" >>"This presidential race has been crackling like a hickory fire for at least the >>last hour and a half." >>"Let’s see where it goes from here. Round and round it goes, where it stops >>nobody knows." >>"We keep talking about Ohio if you’ve been tuning in and out or you put the >>baby to bed or you went to pop the cap on an adult, or otherwise, beverage…" >>"We used to say if a frog had side pockets, he’d carry a handgun." >>"No one is saying that George Bush is not going to win the election, and if you >>had to bet the double-wide, you’d have to bet that he’d win." >>"In southern states they beat him like a rented mule." >>"If you try to read the tea leaves before the cup is done you can get yourself >>burned." >>"We need Billy Crystal to Analyze This" >>"You know that old song, ‘it’s delightful, it’s delicious, it’s de-lovely’ for >>President Bush in most areas of the country." >>"We had a slight hitch in our giddy up, but we corrected that." >>"In some ways, George Bush’s lead is as thin as November ice." >>"Put on a cup of coffee, this race isn’t going to be over for a while." >>"You look at the map and say it’s all a big Bush victory. But this is one time >>when your Mother is right, looks can be deceiving." >>"John Kerry’s moon has just moved behind a cloud, as far as Florida is >>concerned." >>On Kerry’s chances: "To use a metaphor, he’s gotta draw to an inside straight. >>But hey, sometimes you get lucky and hit that straight." >>"Is it like a swan, with every feather above the water settled, but under the >>water paddling like crazy?" >>"What you have here is the football equivalent of a fourth quarter rally by >>Kerry." >>The election is "closer than Lassie and Timmy" >>"Keep in mind they are teetotally meetmortally convinced they have Ohio won." >>"Vice President Dick Cheney would not have flown all the way out there (Hawaii) >>overnight and put that lei around his neck and sort of hula-danced, if you >>will, unless he thought there was a chance of carrying that out there." >>"President Bush smiling there with his family. He’s laid down aces so far." >>"You can almost hear the GOP (deep breathing sound). We’re getting within maybe >>smelling distance." >>"We don’t know what to do. We don’t know whether to wind a watch or bark at the >>moon." >>On how the results are affecting strategists: "It’s one reason so many of them >>drink a lot." >>Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), on being congratulated on victory by Rather: "Thanks >>Dan, I always believe you." Rather: "Now, ladies and gentleman, if you believe >>that, you’ll believe rocks can grow." >Those quotes are the legacy of a blithering idiot.  Must have been >something to do with the frequency he was operating on. >Morvo will be an upgrade. >Claude

Morvo may be interested in crushing our civilization, but at least he wouldn’t lie to us! I’ve decided that Foster’s Home for Imaginary Friends is actually pretty good. There’re some good PPG episodes coming up Sunday.  In one of them Fuzzy Lumpkins (the only banjo player I actually like) will be elected mayor.  And in another, the girls knock a baseball into Mojo Jojo’s place, and then they try to get it back. Mojo Jojo: "Hey, you kids! Get out of my moat! It is not made to be played in! I must remember to destroy those kids after my breakfast has been eaten." Pete — One egg left?  For a nutritious breakfast, two eggs is the minimum requirement!  And I have but one, which is one shy of two!  And it is two that I need! Curses!!! –Mojo Jojo

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> He’s gonna be driving CBS 60 Mins. Google the legacy of reporting > excellence, child

"Tonight, Wednesday 9/8/04 on 60 Minutes II, a CBS broadcast will detail true information to warm the cockles of your hearts. I already knew the content and am delighted with its accuracy."

Response:

> >Put your "rational discourse" in your ass, son. > Good example.

You too. LV

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>"Do you hear that knocking…President Bush’s re-election is at the door." >>>"This race is hotter than a Times Square Rolex." >>>"His lead is as thin as turnip soup." >>>"This race is humming along like Ray Charles." >>>"The presidential race is swinging like Count Basie." >>>"This race is hotter than the Devil’s anvil." >>>"Ohio becomes like a sauna for the two candidates. All they can do is wait and >>>sweat." >>>"One’s reminded of that old saying, ‘Don’t taunt the alligator until after >>>you’ve crossed the creek.’" >>>"This situation in Ohio would give an aspirin a headache.” >>>"Bush is sweeping through the South like a big wheel through a cotton field." >>>"What Kerry needs at this point is the equivalent of Tom Brady coming off the >>>bench to rescue him. But it’s still too close to call." >>>"No question now that Kerry’s rapidly reaching the point where he’s got his >>>back to the wall, his shirttails on fire and the bill collector’s at the door." >>>"John Kerry needs something on the order of a 55 or 60-yard field goal to win >>>this." >>>(To Joe Lockhart) "I know that you’d rather walk through a furnace in a >>>gasoline suit than consider the possibility that John Kerry would lose Ohio." >>>(To Joe Lockhart) "What about Michigan? It’s been out there for a long time. Is >>>that making your fingernails sweat?" >>>"This presidential race has been crackling like a hickory fire for at least the >>>last hour and a half." >>>"Let’s see where it goes from here. Round and round it goes, where it stops >>>nobody knows." >>>"We keep talking about Ohio if you’ve been tuning in and out or you put the >>>baby to bed or you went to pop the cap on an adult, or otherwise, beverage…" >>>"We used to say if a frog had side pockets, he’d carry a handgun." >>>"No one is saying that George Bush is not going to win the election, and if you >>>had to bet the double-wide, you’d have to bet that he’d win." >>>"In southern states they beat him like a rented mule." >>>"If you try to read the tea leaves before the cup is done you can get yourself >>>burned." >>>"We need Billy Crystal to Analyze This" >>>"You know that old song, ‘it’s delightful, it’s delicious, it’s de-lovely’ for >>>President Bush in most areas of the country." >>>"We had a slight hitch in our giddy up, but we corrected that." >>>"In some ways, George Bush’s lead is as thin as November ice." >>>"Put on a cup of coffee, this race isn’t going to be over for a while." >>>"You look at the map and say it’s all a big Bush victory. But this is one time >>>when your Mother is right, looks can be deceiving." >>>"John Kerry’s moon has just moved behind a cloud, as far as Florida is >>>concerned." >>>On Kerry’s chances: "To use a metaphor, he’s gotta draw to an inside straight. >>>But hey, sometimes you get lucky and hit that straight." >>>"Is it like a swan, with every feather above the water settled, but under the >>>water paddling like crazy?" >>>"What you have here is the football equivalent of a fourth quarter rally by >>>Kerry." >>>The election is "closer than Lassie and Timmy" >>>"Keep in mind they are teetotally meetmortally convinced they have Ohio won." >>>"Vice President Dick Cheney would not have flown all the way out there (Hawaii) >>>overnight and put that lei around his neck and sort of hula-danced, if you >>>will, unless he thought there was a chance of carrying that out there." >>>"President Bush smiling there with his family. He’s laid down aces so far." >>>"You can almost hear the GOP (deep breathing sound). We’re getting within maybe >>>smelling distance." >>>"We don’t know what to do. We don’t know whether to wind a watch or bark at the >>>moon." >>>On how the results are affecting strategists: "It’s one reason so many of them >>>drink a lot." >>>Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), on being congratulated on victory by Rather: "Thanks >>>Dan, I always believe you." Rather: "Now, ladies and gentleman, if you believe >>>that, you’ll believe rocks can grow." >>Those quotes are the legacy of a blithering idiot.  Must have been >>something to do with the frequency he was operating on. >Morvo will be an upgrade. >Claude >Morvo may be interested in crushing our civilization, but at least he >wouldn’t lie to us!

Honesty is probably a good thing in an anchor-being. Danny-boy seems to be interested in crushing our civilization without the honesty. >I’ve decided that Foster’s Home for Imaginary Friends is actually >pretty good.

I’ll have to look for it. >There’re some good PPG episodes coming up Sunday.  In one of them >Fuzzy Lumpkins (the only banjo player I actually like) will be elected >mayor.  And in another, the girls knock a baseball into Mojo Jojo’s >place, and then they try to get it back.

Fuzzy and maybe Bela Fleck.. I’ve seen those two. >Mojo Jojo: "Hey, you kids! Get out of my moat! It is not made to be >played in! I must remember to destroy those kids after my breakfast >has been eaten."

Heh. Things might not be that bad if Mojo ever does succeed in taking over. Claude

Response:

> Retired his lame ass.

LOL, the lefty’s will parade his sorry ass on the tube with Rather Reruns in syndication, for the generations of budding Lefty’s. There’s something about that Rather *Head-On-A-Stick* puppet show, that cracks me up. The mouth moves, and the recorded voice comes from the speaker. Worsted *lip sync* in the war of Nightly News puppet shows. It’s nothing more than the continued Parade Of Polished Turds, on the Boob Tube!!!!! To think, this is all the modern world has to offer through it’s advanced technology, is the same level of idiocy that has been with us through the ages. From the Roman Coliseum, to Madison Square Garden, to your home on the Nightly News, the Polished Turd Show never changes.  It’s still the same old tired crap with new faces. So, you too can hang a little green pine tree air freshener on your TV screen, or you can like me, do something with your life, and cut the plug off the end of the TV’s line cord. <thinking> <thinking> The holy man on top of the mountain, when asked the meaning of life by a pilgrim in search of answers, was once quoted as saying,  Your place here in this world, is to aid and assist the continued never ending parade of Polished Turds, for the benefit of the masses, who could not get to watch the parade. Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering,        Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers

Response:

Question:

I just moved seven months ago to rural from the big city Calgary Ab to southern Alberta……. Please tell me how wrong I am and how right I am …this would be more of a hobby than too save money thing. I am hooked up to two utilities Power and natural gas. They both charge more for admistration fees than the actual consumption….example my last months power bill was 89.00$ can total the admin fees where 49.00 of that? Why cant i just get a small natural powered generator and cut the power off. All I would have to do is get a natural gas gen set that would kik in when demand required it Ie the fridge…….I use as little as 400 kw a month and as high as 800 when I am in waste mode. The only thing I would have to convert is the bloody fridge…. my dryer is gas my stove is gas and my furnace is gas my hot water is gas my bbq is gas. Running lights on 12v is not a problem and small inverters that run on 12v for laptops etc are a dime a dozen nowadays. I would save about buy me a nice generator for when i need it? I have heard of quit running natural gas gens and can a guy convert the heat from on einto home heating as well …how much do these cost with auto/remote start? I would think the most I would need is 3000 watts on demmand.

Response:

What is you KWH cost , it may not be high in comparison. Your usage is high if you dont use AC. A generator will cost more than I suspect you pay now, If you figure in cost and unit life I think you will find it twice as much.  Generator life is also important.  Real cheap under 500$ US  have bad power and some last 300 hrs. 1000 $   US  or so can get an ohv  and semi regulated that may go 3000 hrs.  Water cooled gas some car engine powered can go 14000 hrs then you have 1800 rpm diesel that start to last.  Look into conservation first and weigh your costs

Response:

(Snip) > Why cant i just get a small natural powered generator and cut > the power off.

No reason that I know of. After wiring your transfer switch, just power your home from your natural gas generator for a couple months. Compare electric bills and find out which taxes are ratiometric to the amount of power used and which taxes are fixed – rate. Beware that the electric power company can charge you for disconnecting and reconnecting service.  I suspect that they would find many complicated reasons why reconnection would be very expensive and time – consuming. Still sounds like a good experiment to me. –Winston

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A waiste of alot of money for an experiment. Run the numbers fuel will be apx .21 US per Kwh  for a 7500 watt generator, double  a normal US midwest price. And at 1300$ US for a  Generac 7500 13500w gen running say 2 months  12 hrs a day  is 720 hrs.  It has a 2500 -3000 hr basic life.  You just waisted allot of that life for what. to learn ?  A Heavily used fridge in heat may not keep cool running 12 hrs.  And his usage is 5x that of mine. First he should do an energy audit and reduce consumption.

Response:

He should run a gas fridge and dryer first, instead of using gas to generate electric to run compressors and heaters. We run gas appliances. — Steve Spence http://www.beavercreekconsulting.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A waiste of alot of money for an experiment. Run the numbers fuel will > be apx .21 US per Kwh  for a 7500 watt generator, double  a normal US > midwest price. And at 1300$ US for a  Generac 7500 13500w gen running > say 2 months  12 hrs a day  is 720 hrs.  It has a 2500 -3000 hr basic > life.  You just waisted allot of that life for what. to learn ?  A > Heavily used fridge in heat may not keep cool running 12 hrs.  And his > usage is 5x that of mine. First he should do an energy audit and reduce > consumption.

Response:

I guess you missed the part about having to utilities ……both are charging me about 50.00 Canadian a month just for administration fees. I am now thinking maybe keep the electric and convert the house to electric heat and electric hot water. I live in a 1150 up bungalow and its just me here so I could put the heat where I want it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > A waiste of alot of money for an experiment. Run the numbers fuel will > be apx .21 US per Kwh  for a 7500 watt generator, double  a normal US > midwest price. And at 1300$ US for a  Generac 7500 13500w gen running > say 2 months  12 hrs a day  is 720 hrs.  It has a 2500 -3000 hr basic > life.  You just waisted allot of that life for what. to learn ?  A > Heavily used fridge in heat may not keep cool running 12 hrs.  And his > usage is 5x that of mine. First he should do an energy audit and reduce > consumption.

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Question:

To anyone in the Harrisburg, PA area: I would like to get a group of people together to produce biodiesel for home furnances. Any furnace that burns fuel oil (diesel) can use biodiesel (made from used fryer oil), mixed in any ratio with dino-diesel. Some minor modifications to the furnaces may be necessary. If you are interested, please e-mail me.

Response:

minor? I wouldn’t call the mods minor. 50/50 biodiesel/fuel oil won’t require mods. — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel powered diesels at http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To anyone in the Harrisburg, PA area: > I would like to get a group of people together to produce biodiesel > for home furnances. > Any furnace that burns fuel oil (diesel) can use biodiesel (made from > used fryer oil), mixed in any ratio with dino-diesel. Some minor > modifications to the furnaces may be necessary. > If you are interested, please e-mail me.

Response:

Question:

>  Is it better to start a car that is sitting for a while in cold weather > (it’s 12 degrees now) or wait until it’s in the upper 20s?  Should I > idle it once a week – and when? > Sorry for the offtopic, but you guys are around cars all the time and > would know this .  I have 3 cars, one daily driver, the others under car > covers.  How do I keep them ok in this subfreezing weather?

Robert, If you don’t need to run them, just let them sit. It’s worse to run them a short while during cold weather because they generate LOTS of residues / acids / moisture that just end up in the oil, but don’t get burned off because you’re not warming it up or driving anywhere. If you have access to a trickle charger put that on overnight before you do get them going again. Make sure the batteries are not frozen (which happens if it discharges due to something left on, or even car alarms over _long_ periods. Don’t charge a frozen battery. You can even take the batteies into the house if we’re talking about months of no usage, but you’ll still have to put a bit of charge in from time to time. ‘curly’

Response:

 Is it better to start a car that is sitting for a while in cold weather (it’s 12 degrees now) or wait until it’s in the upper 20s?  Should I idle it once a week – and when? Sorry for the offtopic, but you guys are around cars all the time and would know this .  I have 3 cars, one daily driver, the others under car covers.  How do I keep them ok in this subfreezing weather?

Response:

heated garage,(natrually) mines under my brick house between the ground w/,the oil fired furnace & hw heater in  the back ,never below 50f on the coldet day avg.65f.also open  the hoods on warm vechicles after entering,more natural heat. i dont know ,always had  garages from the apt/condo days to the homeowner days

Response:

seriously .try trickle charging/battery tender type chargers,and or oil /block best one or pay for  indoor winter storage  somewhere

Response:

good thoughts.  One is an 89 Mercedes and the other is an 87 Jag, and I’m awaiting a garage construction (that is held up due to the weather). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > seriously .try trickle charging/battery tender type chargers,and or oil /block > best one or pay for  indoor winter storage  somewhere

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Question:

More than half the UK wind farm energy is wasted A Web site describing how a new design of cleaner could save energy equal to the total output of 650 Wind Turbines. http://www.edginton.info/project1 Vacuum Cleaners waste more than 50% of the power that they use by blowing out air that could be recycled. http://www.edginton.info/project1

Response:

Wasted Wind Farm Energy, can be Recovered What a pity that about 60% of all the energy that is collected by Wind Turbines in the UK is then Wasted by being blown out of the exhausts of the 22 million Vacuum Cleaners that are used in England and Wales It takes over 650 wind generators to provide the energy that is being wasted in the air that is blown from 22 million vacuum cleaners. That is more than half of the entire output of all the Wind Farms in the UK. This does not have to happen;The wasted energy can be easily reclaimed. A closed loop system has been researched and has proved to be a viable and economical way of returning this wasted air power, back into the cleaner head then using it to do useful work. Prototype closed loop cleaners that use only 250 watts of power have been field tested and prove that they will clean a carpet as well or better than a conventional 1,500 watt to 2,500 watt Vacuum Cleaner. The filters in vacuum cleaners that are used to try to clean the air before it is released can never be 100% efficient and they are only capable of removing particles down to 0.3 microns or 300 nanometres, but viruses are only 20 to 200 nanometres across so they can all get through the very best filters. The filters also waste energy because they are so dense they require bigger motors to drive the air through them. Whereas a closed loop system will function safely with just a basic filter this is because no air is allowed to leave the machine. At switch off the air speed is gradually reduced allowing any particles to come to rest in the dust, that is inside the dust container. Vacuum Cleaners by their very nature rely on the ambient air pressure of 14.7 pounds per square inch to provide the air pressure that is used to clean the carpet. The closed loop system is not limited in this way and the exhaust air is returned at well over 14.7 pounds per square inch improving the overall efficiency of the machine. The bugs are left inside the container No smell, less noise, and only a fraction of the power consumed. For more detailed information please go to my Web pages. The URL is  http://www.edginton.info/project1 Suggestions please to. If you agree with what I have to say maybe you could please ask others including your MP or GP to look at my pages and help to make a better and healthier world.   http://www.edginton.info/project1 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> Wasted Wind Farm Energy, can be Recovered

    This made no sense when you posted it 4 days ago, and it makes no more sense today.  Those wind generators have nothing to do with your vacuum cleaners.  Better find another hook.      Off to the spammer bin with you!  (plonk) Vaughn

Response:

I am not selling anything so why the strange reaction? My project has everything to do with renewable energy, So why not go to my web site and read what you see there then maybe you might be able to understand it and it will then begin to make sense to you.Vaughn,  I welcome sensible criticism but this is just a no no. http://www.edginton.info/project1 My only objective is to get this closed loop cleaning device manufactured so that everyone will benefit from it. Cheers Ben http://www.edginton.info/project1 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Oh, yes, and before I forget this: My advice: Don’t use Word to create a Webpage. Perhaps it looks good in IE, but awful in Opera. And surely other browsers will have troubles. Thanks geschrieben: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> More than half the UK wind farm energy is wasted > A Web site describing how a new design of cleaner could save energy > equal to > the total output of 650 Wind Turbines. > http://www.edginton.info/project1 > Vacuum Cleaners waste more than 50% of the power that they use by blowing > out air that could be recycled. > http://www.edginton.info/project1

Response:

Thank you for the advice Ben, I will try to remember, glad you like my project. Cheers,from Ben Edginton. England

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Oh, yes, and before I forget this: My advice: > Don’t use Word to create a Webpage. Perhaps it looks good in IE, but awful > in Opera. And surely other browsers will have troubles. > Thanks > geschrieben: > More than half the UK wind farm energy is wasted > A Web site describing how a new design of cleaner could save energy > equal to > the total output of 650 Wind Turbines. > http://www.edginton.info/project1 > Vacuum Cleaners waste more than 50% of the power that they use by blowing > out air that could be recycled. > http://www.edginton.info/project1

Response:

so, was there any info on there how it’s done, or was that a plea for funds. I like the water trap type vacuum cleaners. that, and not using a forced air furnace really cuts down on dust and dirt in the home. also get rid of the kids and pets — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Donate $30 or more to Green Trust, and receive a copy of Joshua Tickell’s "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank", the premier documentary of biodiesel and vegetable oil powered diesels.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> More than half the UK wind farm energy is wasted > A Web site describing how a new design of cleaner could save energy equal to > the total output of 650 Wind Turbines. > http://www.edginton.info/project1 > Vacuum Cleaners waste more than 50% of the power that they use by blowing > out air that could be recycled. > http://www.edginton.info/project1

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