Question:
> I think that, if we could offer a reasonable alternative, there’d be less > interest in doing it the wrong way. Maybe lives would be saved. Anyone?
I’ve been puzzling over this myself. I haven’t found a transfer panel that will conveniently handle my setup: I have two 200A main panels and a zillion circuits to various parts of the house. So I have been toying with an alternative that (while not code) might provide the same safety as a transfer panel. What if I backfeed my generator output to the main panel via a normally open 30A relay. The relay coil would be activated by the generator’s voltage, switched by magnetic reed switches or optical switches positioned on the main panels such that they could sense the position of the main breakers. The generator cut-in relay would only be energized if 1) the generator is running and 2) the main breakers are OFF. It would all be connected such that the failure of the sense switches or wiring would take the generator output offline. It seems like this would provide the functional equivalent of a transfer panel with more flexibility and lower cost. Comments? Regards, Dennis
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I think that, if we could offer a reasonable alternative, there’d be less > interest in doing it the wrong way. Maybe lives would be saved. Anyone? >I’ve been puzzling over this myself. I haven’t found a transfer panel that >will conveniently handle my setup: I have two 200A main panels and a zillion >circuits to various parts of the house. So I have been toying with an >alternative that (while not code) might provide the same safety as a transfer >panel. >What if I backfeed my generator output to the main panel via a normally open >30A relay. The relay coil would be activated by the generator’s voltage, >switched by magnetic reed switches or optical switches positioned on the main >panels such that they could sense the position of the main breakers. The >generator cut-in relay would only be energized if 1) the generator is running >and 2) the main breakers are OFF. It would all be connected such that the >failure of the sense switches or wiring would take the generator output >offline. >It seems like this would provide the functional equivalent of a transfer panel >with more flexibility and lower cost. Comments? >Regards, Dennis
Build a prototype and call your power authority in for a "special approval" I don’t know about where you are, but Ontario Hydro can authorize anything they are satisfied will be 100% safe, regardless of UL or CSA or equivalent certification. EACH unit will require inspection – it is not a type certification. Snyder Enterprises Appropriate Technology for the Information Age Waterloo Ontario. To reply please drop the r, and send to : Too many misdirected replies plugging my mail box!!!
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->ANYTHING other than a certified >transfer switch is ILLEGAL and could be DANGEROUS. >This just about sums up this thread. And I think we all agree. >The original poster, however, was complaining about the cost. C’mon; $350 for a >few switches and wires, that we can see would cost less than $100 if they >weren’t a "specialty" item? Get real. >I suspect, for some of us, it’s not a desire to be dangerous or illegal, but a >distate for being ripped off! >Does anyone know a reputable manufacturer and/or reseller that can sell this >stuff (double throw breakers, genny connection cables, etc) somewhere NEAR the >price range of similar, non-specialty items? >I think that, if we could offer a reasonable alternative, there’d be less >interest in doing it the wrong way. Maybe lives would be saved. Anyone? >Just my $.02. >- Tom
I don’t know about manufacturers, but I offered to TRADE a couple of ONAN transfer switches, and got no answer at all. It is in this NG and fairly recent. One is a single contactor, and one is a pair of them, with mechanical interlock one is for 120 V, and the other is for 120-240 V. Did I hear a lot of counteroffers? Is the pope atheist? I think a lot of people are just cheap. A few in this NG are just unable to afford money, but the rest are just unwilling to spend it. "The learned Fool writes his nonsense in better language, but ’tis still nonsense." B.Franklin ‘Poor Richard Improved’ (1754) Lou H. Prolific inventor, Lousy Salesman, Incompetent businessman. (Typical of the Breed) Looking for both around Tulsa OK, USA
Response:
>ANYTHING other than a certified >transfer switch is ILLEGAL and could be DANGEROUS.
This just about sums up this thread. And I think we all agree. The original poster, however, was complaining about the cost. C’mon; $350 for a few switches and wires, that we can see would cost less than $100 if they weren’t a "specialty" item? Get real. I suspect, for some of us, it’s not a desire to be dangerous or illegal, but a distate for being ripped off! Does anyone know a reputable manufacturer and/or reseller that can sell this stuff (double throw breakers, genny connection cables, etc) somewhere NEAR the price range of similar, non-specialty items? I think that, if we could offer a reasonable alternative, there’d be less interest in doing it the wrong way. Maybe lives would be saved. Anyone? Just my $.02. – Tom
Response:
SNIPP > A similar idea was posted earlier. I haven’t checked the code yet, but I am >not sure the county considers this a legitimate method of generator transfer. >This still leaves me with legal liability if some inspector is trying to get >a promotion. Also to hook up anywhere before the main breaker I am working >with live wires. I have no way to kill the power before this point except >pulling the meter. I think the power company frowns on this. I have the new >digital meter also. I’m guessing that might even know if I pull it. Any >ideas?
Yes. Put the transfer switch AFTER the main breaker. Then you can shut off the main breaker to do the install, and the "main" breaker on the Genny becomes your main when running on backup power. You are legal because you are using the transfer switch – and safe because you can disconnect the power to do the install. In most areas you are allowed to do wiring on your own property without a licence, as long as you meet code. You are NOT allowed to do wiring on anyone else’s property OR for pay without a licence. >NERO B
Snyder Enterprises Appropriate Technology for the Information Age Waterloo Ontario. To reply please drop the r, and send to : Too many misdirected replies plugging my mail box!!!
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I just picked up a Generac 5kw generator for emergency back-up at my house. I >am trying to determine a simple and inexpensive method to hook up to the >house. The hardware store folks were recommending a transfer switch >($200-$300 with only 4-6 circuits), a transfer switch cable ($75-$100) and >several hours of electrician labor ($$$?) along with permits and inspections. >One of the primary functions of the transfer switch is to make sure you are >isolated from the main power lines, lest you electrocute a technician with >your generator. >After the sales gent leaves, a couple of customers inform me of an >inexpensive and simpler method. Simply purchase the plugs and cable to >connect from the locking 240V, 20 amp, outlet on the generator, to the 240V >dryer outlet in your house. You make sure you open the main breaker to your >house before connecting the generator. Then you fire up the generator and the >240v flows to the dryer outlet and on to the main circuit box in the house >via the two 120V legs. This accomplishes my three goals. 1) protects power >workers from electrocution. 2) simple and inexpensive (about $30 in parts). >3) I have the option of using any house circuit (not limited to 4-6 >circuits). >Questions: >Has anyone tried this succesfully? >What are the drawbacks of this method or things to be aware of? >The generator end has 4 connections while the dryer end has only 3 >connections. Can I use 3 conector cable between the plugs and jump the >neutral (white) and the ground (green) connections on the generator plug? >Should I use 4 conductor wire and jump on the dryer end? >I am trying to keep the cable length at 15′-20′. ( I may be able to go 10′ if >necessary) Will 10 AWG dryer type cable do the job? >I suggest doing it right! Your house is the one that would be burning not mine. >Just a thought. BTW If your house is wired with aluminum wiring I wouldn’t do it! >Do you know what type of wiring is in the house? >Copper aluminum are not too good at mixing because of the dieletric effect. One type of >metal contacts another and generates a DC voltage. Small but it can cause damage. >If Aluminum does start to heat up to the point it catches fire sand is about the only >thing that would put out the fire. Water would flare it up. Poorman’s thermite effect >would leave the home in cinders. >So I suggest before you start such a project to find out what kind of wires are running >through your walls. >~tss~
No problem, aluminum or copper, but ANYTHING other than a certified transfer switch is ILLEGAL and could be DANGEROUS. NO INSURANCE if there is a fire from ANY cause with this connection. Snyder Enterprises Appropriate Technology for the Information Age Waterloo Ontario. To reply please drop the r, and send to : Too many misdirected replies plugging my mail box!!!
Response:
take a look at this site: it may be helpful in what you are trying to do. http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/homei/9803HIHIAM.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I just picked up a Generac 5kw generator for emergency back-up at my house.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I just picked up a Generac 5kw generator for emergency back-up at my house. I >am trying to determine a simple and inexpensive method to hook up to the >house. The hardware store folks were recommending a transfer switch >($200-$300 with only 4-6 circuits), a transfer switch cable ($75-$100) and >several hours of electrician labor ($$$?) along with permits and inspections. >One of the primary functions of the transfer switch is to make sure you are >isolated from the main power lines, lest you electrocute a technician with >your generator. >After the sales gent leaves, a couple of customers inform me of an >inexpensive and simpler method. Simply purchase the plugs and cable to >connect from the locking 240V, 20 amp, outlet on the generator, to the 240V >dryer outlet in your house. You make sure you open the main breaker to your >house before connecting the generator. Then you fire up the generator and the >240v flows to the dryer outlet and on to the main circuit box in the house >via the two 120V legs.
Illegal in ALL juristictions. Unsafe at any time – [particularly in a crisis.] DON’T do it. The ONLY legal and safe way is a transfer switch. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This accomplishes my three goals. 1) protects power >workers from electrocution. 2) simple and inexpensive (about $30 in parts). >3) I have the option of using any house circuit (not limited to 4-6 >circuits). >Questions: >Has anyone tried this succesfully? >What are the drawbacks of this method or things to be aware of? >The generator end has 4 connections while the dryer end has only 3 >connections. Can I use 3 conector cable between the plugs and jump the >neutral (white) and the ground (green) connections on the generator plug? >Should I use 4 conductor wire and jump on the dryer end? >I am trying to keep the cable length at 15′-20′. ( I may be able to go 10′ if >necessary) Will 10 AWG dryer type cable do the job? >Thanks in advance for your assitance. >NERO B
Snyder Enterprises Appropriate Technology for the Information Age Waterloo Ontario. To reply please drop the r, and send to : Too many misdirected replies plugging my mail box!!!
Response:
yes it works yes I have tried it I have done it however I do recomend that you but a breaker in that is rated at the same as your generator and installing a seperate outlet somewhere else.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You’re sure to hear how this type of back-feeding is illegal and dangerous, > and will void your home insurance, etc etc … and it’s all true ! > I have received many such posts and appreciate the info and concern. > But if you’re still intent on doing it anyway, > Temporarily, probably. > This is where I am not 100% clear. The generator outlet is 4 wire, 2 hot, > neutral and ground. If my transfer cable is 4-wire with 220v twist locks > (M/F) on both ends, all is still ok. Now with the "dead-mans cord’, I have a > 4-wire male twist lock on one end. A 4-wire cable in the middle and a 3-wire > dryer plug on the other end. What do I do with the extra ground wire? Do I > connect it to the neutral (white) wire on the dryer plug end of the cable? > Also, I am trying to make sure I get the correct gauge and type wire, for the > length I am running, to make this transfer cable safe. Any suggestions?
Let me get this clear: You don’t know how to figure the correct wire gauge, but you are going to jury-rig this anyway against all advice to the contrary. I hope you get a good quality generator; you’ll be using it the rest of your life. Power companies generally turn off your power *permanently* when they find out you are using this kind of hookup. (Their worker’s comp claims are high enough as it is.) Irv
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >first do you have two empty circuit breakers in your box that you can >put a 220 volt circuit breaker in? >if so >get a circuit breaker 220 volt rated for the amps of your generator >install in panel make sure to label this and keep it turned off. also >label all other circuit breakers and mark which ones will need to be >powered in an emergancy. next install a 220 outlet some where on the >outside that is in an area where you want to leave your generator. >inside a garage is okay as long as you keep the door open. run the right >gauge where between the 220 outlet and the circuit breaker. next make a >cable with two mail ends plug one in generator. and the other in the >outlet. when power goes off. turn main off!!!!!! turn all none essential >breakers off turn the 220 on. Crank generator and apply load. should >take you about half a day and you don’t need permits or anything else. >although an electrcian could help.
Very dangerous- what if the male plug gets pulled out of the wall???then you’ll have shock and fire hazzard… Scott
Response:
first do you have two empty circuit breakers in your box that you can put a 220 volt circuit breaker in? if so get a circuit breaker 220 volt rated for the amps of your generator install in panel make sure to label this and keep it turned off. also label all other circuit breakers and mark which ones will need to be powered in an emergancy. next install a 220 outlet some where on the outside that is in an area where you want to leave your generator. inside a garage is okay as long as you keep the door open. run the right gauge where between the 220 outlet and the circuit breaker. next make a cable with two mail ends plug one in generator. and the other in the outlet. when power goes off. turn main off!!!!!! turn all none essential breakers off turn the 220 on. Crank generator and apply load. should take you about half a day and you don’t need permits or anything else. although an electrcian could help.
Response:
If you choose to use this method of connection, (the unsafe, not to NEC, type your talking about) then you have two choices. Drop the ground from the wiring connection between the genset and the dryer outlet, or change the dryer outlet to a 4 wire outlet and change the dryer pigtail to match. Either will work, but the Building Inspector will wonder why your dryer is using a different type connector. If you should choose the first, then just connect the ground lug on the genset to the metal case of your Main Panel using a Number 12 wire, and leave the ground connection of the twistloc unconnected. No fear, Now with all of the above said, you better start taking "Charles Atlas Body Building courses" because if you make a mistake and fry a lineman, his buddies are going to come looking for you, and they aren’t going to be in any mood to just "Chat", when they show up at your door. After you pick yourself up off your living room floor, with a few teeth missing, the ‘Boys in Blue" will snap the cuffs on you and you will be living with "Bubba" for the next few years. Linecrews just don’t have any sense of humor when it comes to this sort of thing. None at all. Ah, but you say, " I am a smart guy and it would never happen to me" or "I know what I’m doing, and I won’t forget any of the checklist steps", well those big burly guys will not be listening to your explanations when they breakdown your door, when you do forget, and do make a mistake. Do it right or pay for it later. Bruce
Response:
As a former lineman for an electric utility, I have to say…..Do it the right way! Standard practice for us when we found someone with a "jury-rigged" hookup was to disconnect them from the grid until they could prove compliance with the regulations. Even then, we were often pretty slow to do a re-connect for them. By not conforming to safety regulation, you are putting the lives of my friends at risk.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >I just picked up a Generac 5kw generator for emergency back-up at my house. I > >am trying to determine a simple and inexpensive method to hook up to the > >house. The hardware store folks were recommending a transfer switch > >($200-$300 with only 4-6 circuits), a transfer switch cable ($75-$100) and > >several hours of electrician labor ($$$?) along with permits and inspections. > >One of the primary functions of the transfer switch is to make sure you are > >isolated from the main power lines, lest you electrocute a technician with > >your generator. > >After the sales gent leaves, a couple of customers inform me of an > >inexpensive and simpler method. Simply purchase the plugs and cable to > >connect from the locking 240V, 20 amp, outlet on the generator, to the 240V > >dryer outlet in your house. You make sure you open the main breaker to your > >house before connecting the generator. Then you fire up the generator and the > >240v flows to the dryer outlet and on to the main circuit box in the house > >via the two 120V legs. This accomplishes my three goals. 1) protects power > >workers from electrocution. 2) simple and inexpensive (about $30 in parts). > >3) I have the option of using any house circuit (not limited to 4-6 > >circuits). > >Questions: > >Has anyone tried this succesfully? > >What are the drawbacks of this method or things to be aware of? > >The generator end has 4 connections while the dryer end has only 3 > >connections. Can I use 3 conector cable between the plugs and jump the > >neutral (white) and the ground (green) connections on the generator plug? > >Should I use 4 conductor wire and jump on the dryer end? > >I am trying to keep the cable length at 15′-20′. ( I may be able to go 10′ if > >necessary) Will 10 AWG dryer type cable do the job?
snip
Response:
Just a thought but why couldn’t you just simply buy another main circuit breaker. When the power goes down, turn off the original and pop it out, tape around it so that nothing bare can touch anything. Pop in the new circuit breaker connected to the generator and then you are in business. This would ensure that when a line man is working you will not endanger him and when the power comes back on you just have to be very careful re-inserting the original circuit breaker, realizing that it is now live. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You’re sure to hear how this type of back-feeding is illegal and dangerous, > and will void your home insurance, etc etc … and it’s all true ! > I have received many such posts and appreciate the info and concern. > But if you’re still intent on doing it anyway, > Temporarily, probably. > I’ve heard of people who … > – use a shortened dryer cord as a "dead-mans cord" – male dryer plug on one > end, male 220 v. twist-lock on the other end – and mark it with bright > coloured tape & warnings & such. They keep it in a safe place. > – this makes the long run of cord (from genny to dryer cord) a normal > male/female cord – except that it is heavy wire with 220 v. twist-locks. > This is an interesting idea. > – if the long cord is 4-wire, it could be used to ground the genny frame. > How? The genny instructions show a ground lug on the frame that I planned on > running some heavy gauge wire to a ground rod. > (the dryer cord should be 4-wire) > This is where I am not 100% clear. The generator outlet is 4 wire, 2 hot, > neutral and ground. If my transfer cable is 4-wire with 220v twist locks > (M/F) on both ends, all is still ok. Now with the "dead-mans cord’, I have a > 4-wire male twist lock on one end. A 4-wire cable in the middle and a 3-wire > dryer plug on the other end. What do I do with the extra ground wire? Do I > connect it to the neutral (white) wire on the dryer plug end of the cable? > Also, I am trying to make sure I get the correct gauge and type wire, for the > length I am running, to make this transfer cable safe. Any suggestions? > Thanks for the input, NERO B
Response:
Right and dead wrong, Ac has no direction, correct. Breakers by their design do have direction… Fed Pioneer and Square D both can take 50-100% more to trip them when backfeeding…been their, done that, PAID FOR IT. Part of the problem is that even though they won’t trip the contacts are not able to take the extra heat and can freeze together. The genny’s breakers should trip in an over power event but, my point was that you can not really on the panel breakers. This is extremely important to anyone reading with an PTO style genny with fuses instead of breakers. DON’T use pennies in the fuse holders and expect the house breaker being back fed to to save the day…it may not. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > <snip> >The other thing that should be noted is that the dryer breaker does not > protect >anything. Most breakers are not sensitive to back fed power. >Hoping you’ll do the right and safe thing. > <snip> > This is not true, AC current has no ‘direction’. The breaker will trip > regardless, as long as there is an excessive current drawn through it.
Response:
> You’re sure to hear how this type of back-feeding is illegal and dangerous, > and will void your home insurance, etc etc … and it’s all true !
I have received many such posts and appreciate the info and concern. > But if you’re still intent on doing it anyway,
Temporarily, probably. I’ve heard of people who … > – use a shortened dryer cord as a "dead-mans cord" – male dryer plug on one > end, male 220 v. twist-lock on the other end – and mark it with bright > coloured tape & warnings & such. They keep it in a safe place. > – this makes the long run of cord (from genny to dryer cord) a normal > male/female cord – except that it is heavy wire with 220 v. twist-locks.
This is an interesting idea. > – if the long cord is 4-wire, it could be used to ground the genny frame.
How? The genny instructions show a ground lug on the frame that I planned on running some heavy gauge wire to a ground rod. > (the dryer cord should be 4-wire)
This is where I am not 100% clear. The generator outlet is 4 wire, 2 hot, neutral and ground. If my transfer cable is 4-wire with 220v twist locks (M/F) on both ends, all is still ok. Now with the "dead-mans cord’, I have a 4-wire male twist lock on one end. A 4-wire cable in the middle and a 3-wire dryer plug on the other end. What do I do with the extra ground wire? Do I connect it to the neutral (white) wire on the dryer plug end of the cable? Also, I am trying to make sure I get the correct gauge and type wire, for the length I am running, to make this transfer cable safe. Any suggestions? Thanks for the input, NERO B
Response:
You’re sure to hear how this type of back-feeding is illegal and dangerous, and will void your home insurance, etc etc … and it’s all true ! But if you’re still intent on doing it anyway, I’ve heard of people who … – use a shortened dryer cord as a "dead-mans cord" – male dryer plug on one end, male 220 v. twist-lock on the other end – and mark it with bright coloured tape & warnings & such. They keep it in a safe place. – this makes the long run of cord (from genny to dryer cord) a normal male/female cord – except that it is heavy wire with 220 v. twist-locks. – if the long cord is 4-wire, it could be used to ground the genny frame. (the dryer cord should be 4-wire) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I just picked up a Generac 5kw generator for emergency back-up at my house. I >am trying to determine a simple and inexpensive method to hook up to the >house. The hardware store folks were recommending a transfer switch >($200-$300 with only 4-6 circuits), a transfer switch cable ($75-$100) and >several hours of electrician labor ($$$?) along with permits and inspections. >One of the primary functions of the transfer switch is to make sure you are >isolated from the main power lines, lest you electrocute a technician with >your generator. >After the sales gent leaves, a couple of customers inform me of an >inexpensive and simpler method. Simply purchase the plugs and cable to >connect from the locking 240V, 20 amp, outlet on the generator, to the 240V >dryer outlet in your house. You make sure you open the main breaker to your >house before connecting the generator. Then you fire up the generator and the >240v flows to the dryer outlet and on to the main circuit box in the house >via the two 120V legs. This accomplishes my three goals. 1) protects power >workers from electrocution. 2) simple and inexpensive (about $30 in parts). >3) I have the option of using any house circuit (not limited to 4-6 >circuits). >Questions: >Has anyone tried this succesfully? >What are the drawbacks of this method or things to be aware of? >The generator end has 4 connections while the dryer end has only 3 >connections. Can I use 3 conector cable between the plugs and jump the >neutral (white) and the ground (green) connections on the generator plug? >Should I use 4 conductor wire and jump on the dryer end? >I am trying to keep the cable length at 15′-20′. ( I may be able to go 10′ if >necessary) Will 10 AWG dryer type cable do the job? >Thanks in advance for your assitance. >NERO B
Response:
<snip> >The other thing that should be noted is that the dryer breaker does not protect >anything. Most breakers are not sensitive to back fed power. >Hoping you’ll do the right and safe thing.
<snip> This is not true, AC current has no ‘direction’. The breaker will trip regardless, as long as there is an excessive current drawn through it.
Response:
One of the main dangers of doing this is that you do stand a great chance of killing a Power Line worker. Should that happen, You are subject to trial for at a minimum Negligent homicide which in some states can carry a Life sentence not to consider the fact that you killed someone by stupidity. The best method which I can think of which would work simply and cheaply is to install a cut off bellow your power meter with a manual switch for the generator. This way you are able to connect to the main feeds as you should for the greatest protection not only to yourself but the poor power line workers. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Don’t do it. It’s illegal and very unsafe to you/the line person and your genny. >I will admit that I have done this exact thing on occasion except I hardwire to a >220 circuit. The problem is that the 1st time someone forgets to throw and lock >the main in off position you will fry your genny and perhaps your house (if the >genny catches fire) and the poor line person is being subjected to the back fed >power. The other unsafe thing about using a dryer outlet is the suicide plug that >is needed. If anyone ever pulled the plug with the genny running they will feel >great pain or death. >The other thing that should be noted is that the dryer breaker does not protect >anything. Most breakers are not sensitive to back fed power. >Hoping you’ll do the right and safe thing. > I just picked up a Generac 5kw generator for emergency back-up at my house. I > am trying to determine a simple and inexpensive method to hook up to the > house. The hardware store folks were recommending a transfer switch > ($200-$300 with only 4-6 circuits), a transfer switch cable ($75-$100) and > several hours of electrician labor ($$$?) along with permits and inspections. > One of the primary functions of the transfer switch is to make sure you are > isolated from the main power lines, lest you electrocute a technician with > your generator. > After the sales gent leaves, a couple of customers inform me of an > inexpensive and simpler method. Simply purchase the plugs and cable to > connect from the locking 240V, 20 amp, outlet on the generator, to the 240V > dryer outlet in your house. You make sure you open the main breaker to your > house before connecting the generator. Then you fire up the generator and the > 240v flows to the dryer outlet and on to the main circuit box in the house > via the two 120V legs. This accomplishes my three goals. 1) protects power > workers from electrocution. 2) simple and inexpensive (about $30 in parts). > 3) I have the option of using any house circuit (not limited to 4-6 > circuits). > Questions: > Has anyone tried this succesfully? > What are the drawbacks of this method or things to be aware of? > The generator end has 4 connections while the dryer end has only 3 > connections. Can I use 3 conector cable between the plugs and jump the > neutral (white) and the ground (green) connections on the generator plug? > Should I use 4 conductor wire and jump on the dryer end? > I am trying to keep the cable length at 15′-20′. ( I may be able to go 10′ if > necessary) Will 10 AWG dryer type cable do the job? > Thanks in advance for your assitance. > NERO B
Response:
>>What are the drawbacks of this method or things to be aware of? >Based on the way which houses are wired, it will work – make sure that the >main breaker is thrown, and that you don’t have a lot of appliances that >were ‘on’ when the grid power went down. >A drawback is that you have to manually bring yourself up on generator >power, which isn’t that big of a deal. >We used this method during the ice storm. Turn all the breakers off
including the main, then connect and start the generator. Then you can turn your circuits on and off with the breakers to control the load on the generator. This is important with smaller generators, ie run the furnace for a while, turn it off and then run the water pump.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I just picked up a Generac 5kw generator for emergency back-up at my house. I >am trying to determine a simple and inexpensive method to hook up to the >house. The hardware store folks were recommending a transfer switch >($200-$300 with only 4-6 circuits), a transfer switch cable ($75-$100) and >several hours of electrician labor ($$$?) along with permits and inspections. >One of the primary functions of the transfer switch is to make sure you are >isolated from the main power lines, lest you electrocute a technician with >your generator. >After the sales gent leaves, a couple of customers inform me of an >inexpensive and simpler method. Simply purchase the plugs and cable to >connect from the locking 240V, 20 amp, outlet on the generator, to the 240V >dryer outlet in your house. You make sure you open the main breaker to your >house before connecting the generator. Then you fire up the generator and the >240v flows to the dryer outlet and on to the main circuit box in the house >via the two 120V legs. This accomplishes my three goals. 1) protects power >workers from electrocution. 2) simple and inexpensive (about $30 in parts). >3) I have the option of using any house circuit (not limited to 4-6 >circuits). >Questions: >Has anyone tried this succesfully? >What are the drawbacks of this method or things to be aware of? >The generator end has 4 connections while the dryer end has only 3 >connections. Can I use 3 conector cable between the plugs and jump the >neutral (white) and the ground (green) connections on the generator plug? >Should I use 4 conductor wire and jump on the dryer end? >I am trying to keep the cable length at 15′-20′. ( I may be able to go 10′ if >necessary) Will 10 AWG dryer type cable do the job?
I suggest doing it right! Your house is the one that would be burning not mine. Just a thought. BTW If your house is wired with aluminum wiring I wouldn’t do it! Do you know what type of wiring is in the house? Copper aluminum are not too good at mixing because of the dieletric effect. One type of metal contacts another and generates a DC voltage. Small but it can cause damage. If Aluminum does start to heat up to the point it catches fire sand is about the only thing that would put out the fire. Water would flare it up. Poorman’s thermite effect would leave the home in cinders. So I suggest before you start such a project to find out what kind of wires are running through your walls. ~tss~
Response:
Don’t do it. It’s illegal and very unsafe to you/the line person and your genny. I will admit that I have done this exact thing on occasion except I hardwire to a 220 circuit. The problem is that the 1st time someone forgets to throw and lock the main in off position you will fry your genny and perhaps your house (if the genny catches fire) and the poor line person is being subjected to the back fed power. The other unsafe thing about using a dryer outlet is the suicide plug that is needed. If anyone ever pulled the plug with the genny running they will feel great pain or death. The other thing that should be noted is that the dryer breaker does not protect anything. Most breakers are not sensitive to back fed power. Hoping you’ll do the right and safe thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I just picked up a Generac 5kw generator for emergency back-up at my house. I > am trying to determine a simple and inexpensive method to hook up to the > house. The hardware store folks were recommending a transfer switch > ($200-$300 with only 4-6 circuits), a transfer switch cable ($75-$100) and > several hours of electrician labor ($$$?) along with permits and inspections. > One of the primary functions of the transfer switch is to make sure you are > isolated from the main power lines, lest you electrocute a technician with > your generator. > After the sales gent leaves, a couple of customers inform me of an > inexpensive and simpler method. Simply purchase the plugs and cable to > connect from the locking 240V, 20 amp, outlet on the generator, to the 240V > dryer outlet in your house. You make sure you open the main breaker to your > house before connecting the generator. Then you fire up the generator and the > 240v flows to the dryer outlet and on to the main circuit box in the house > via the two 120V legs. This accomplishes my three goals. 1) protects power > workers from electrocution. 2) simple and inexpensive (about $30 in parts). > 3) I have the option of using any house circuit (not limited to 4-6 > circuits). > Questions: > Has anyone tried this succesfully? > What are the drawbacks of this method or things to be aware of? > The generator end has 4 connections while the dryer end has only 3 > connections. Can I use 3 conector cable between the plugs and jump the > neutral (white) and the ground (green) connections on the generator plug? > Should I use 4 conductor wire and jump on the dryer end? > I am trying to keep the cable length at 15′-20′. ( I may be able to go 10′ if > necessary) Will 10 AWG dryer type cable do the job? > Thanks in advance for your assitance. > NERO B
Response:
Pretty shaky operation, IMO. A really funny thing will happen if you happen to forget to turn off the "shore power". Also, if you have 4 wires, you may have a 3-phase generator – and then some funny things will happen to your appliances…. — Solar and Wind for remote power since 1979 http://www.windsun.com http://www.solar-electric.com (online store)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I just picked up a Generac 5kw generator for emergency back-up at my house. I >am trying to determine a simple and inexpensive method to hook up to the >house. The hardware store folks were recommending a transfer switch >($200-$300 with only 4-6 circuits), a transfer switch cable ($75-$100) and >several hours of electrician labor ($$$?) along with permits and inspections. >One of the primary functions of the transfer switch is to make sure you are >isolated from the main power lines, lest you electrocute a technician with >your generator. >After the sales gent leaves, a couple of customers inform me of an >inexpensive and simpler method. Simply purchase the plugs and cable to >connect from the locking 240V, 20 amp, outlet on the generator, to the 240V >dryer outlet in your house. You make sure you open the main breaker to your >house before connecting the generator. Then you fire up the generator and the >240v flows to the dryer outlet and on to the main circuit box in the house >via the two 120V legs. This accomplishes my three goals. 1) protects power >workers from electrocution. 2) simple and inexpensive (about $30 in parts). >3) I have the option of using any house circuit (not limited to 4-6 >circuits). >Questions: >Has anyone tried this succesfully? >What are the drawbacks of this method or things to be aware of? >The generator end has 4 connections while the dryer end has only 3 >connections. Can I use 3 conector cable between the plugs and jump the >neutral (white) and the ground (green) connections on the generator plug? >Should I use 4 conductor wire and jump on the dryer end? >I am trying to keep the cable length at 15′-20′. ( I may be able to go 10′ if >necessary) Will 10 AWG dryer type cable do the job? >Thanks in advance for your assitance. >NERO B
Own
Response:
>What are the drawbacks of this method or things to be aware of?
Based on the way which houses are wired, it will work – make sure that the main breaker is thrown, and that you don’t have a lot of appliances that were ‘on’ when the grid power went down. A drawback is that you have to manually bring yourself up on generator power, which isn’t that big of a deal.
Response:
I am positive that you don’t know enough about dogs to own this breed. I am positive that you haven’t done enough research. I am positive that this isn’t a suitable breed for your situation. I am positive that this match is an accident looking for a place to happen. I am positive that when that "accident" does happen, all blame will be placed on the dog and not the fool that owns it. Robin 
Posted in Home Insurance | 
No Comments » | 
— "It sees to us odd to churn one’s needs in that way. Buy everything, churn it around, increase the price, then sell it back to people who made it." _Six Moon Dance_, Sheri S. Tepper 
teenaged son took a corner too fast on wet streets and slid into concrete drainage structure; 9) a car ran a red light and hit the right rear of my wife’s car as she drove through the intersection; 10) on the way home from work in stop and go traffic my wife took a nap during the "go" part and missed the "stop" part; 11) an over-hanging eight-inch diameter limb was snapped off by a mis-routed 18-wheeler, and the limb fell on my car as I was driving in the opposite direction; 12-17) we’ve probably replaced 5 or 6 windshields and 18-23) probably used our towing coverage 5 or 6 times. We also got a rental car every time our car was in the shop. One last incident: 24) My son (who was 19 at the time) was sitting in his parked car when he was hit with a shotgun blast fired at him from less than 20 feet away. He was able to make a fast exit from the parking lot and drove himself to the hospital emergency room. Later that evening they transferred him to Parkland Hospital in Dallas, where he spent the next couple of weeks. He’s 21 now, and doing fine. (Thank God for good medical coverage through work!) A couple of days after the incident I went back to the first hospital to pick up the car. There was no damage to the glass or to the exterior of the car. All of the windows had been down when the shot was fired and the full shot pattern went in the open window. The off-white fabric inside the car was another story. Quite a bit of blood had just spent the last 48 hours or so inside a closed car in the North Texas sun. OK, now I’m back to insurance. I called our State Farm agent to ask about places that might specialize in cleaning up dried blood, and to ask about coverage for the cleanup. He told me where to take it and that sure, it was covered. That evening the agent called the house and spoke to my wife. He asked how our son was doing and asked my wife to tell him again how the whole thing happened. When she finished he said "OK, that’s what I thought your husband said. Did you know that the medical portion of your auto insurance will provide coverage?" State Farm provided secondary coverage and paid almost $9,000 that would have been our responsibility as deductables and copays. My son was sitting in a parked car when he was shot. It never crossed my mind that our auto insurance would provide additional medical coverage; our agent called and told us. As best I can figure, I’ve had 24 claims without being cancelled. That pretty much ruins your "two claims, and you’re outta here" logic. The results might have been different if I had placed the homeowners and the auto coverage with different carriers, or if I had moved the insurance to a new company every time someone offered to save me $50. Or it might have been different if I had called the company to come inspect the roof every time the wind blew hard there in south Louisiana, or if I would have done like several of my neighbors and created roof damage before I called them out. Or if I would have falsely claimed an injury in one of the accidents, and tried to obtain hundreds of thousands of dollars in a settlement. I can’t tell you why they are treating you poorly. All I can say is that they’ve been very good to me. — Always remember: <http://mysite.directlink.net/matthews/smiles/started.htm> 