Question:
>Interesting. I never considered a dog being so traumatized that it >constantly soils its sleeping area.
Dogs who are VERY stressed out will pee or poop. Kati did this when her toes got caught in Gypsy’s collar while they were wrestling (they now wrestle "naked") It’s a really common thing to see at shelters or vet clinics with animals who are stressed — they’ll evacuate their anal glands, pee or poop. >But why would this dog also soil the kitchen when isolated there?
Same thing. Separation anxiety. >Why not soil the house when she was out of the crate for 10 hrs?
Because the owners are HOME. The anxiety is not necessarily caused by the crate, but the separation (although you’re right that the crate might be inextricably associated with the separation — and using a different method might be a good idea) >And in either case, why not remove the source of the stress — >the crate — rather than drug the dog?
But if the source of stress is the SEPARATION, not the crate (the crate of course is now associated with separation), and you cannot remove the separation, then it is necessary to acclimate the dog to the separation. I didn’t say USE drugs — I said "discuss them with your vet". Although I do think if the dog has such intractable separation anxiety that it’s peeing and pooping in a small crate and when left locked in the kitchen, it might be a good candidate for temporary tranquilizers. >How can you tell if the dog is stressed or if it has just developed >a habit of soiling its sleeping area?
Good question. If the dog EVER, even once, went to the crate and urinated or defecated when the owners were home, I’d guess it had become a habit. But chances are that if the dog is sitting in the mess afterwards, it’s a stress-related thing. I like the idea of not using the crate — or possibly changing to a different type of crate (wire if you’re using plastic, or vice versa) and TOTALLY CHANGING THE ROUTINE OF LEAVING. If you wait until you’re ready to walk out the door before you put your shoes on (or grab your keys or coat or whatever), then do that at LEAST 1/2 hour before you leave. Switch up your morning routine so completely that the dog has no clues … you know what I mean. My dogs go NUTS when I put my shoes on, or when I pick up my keys. Dogs pick up all these sublte cues. Do you always do the dishes before you leave? Don’t. Do you leave them in the sink? Then take the time to wash them first. There are a hundred little details that you can experiment with to make the separation less like all the other separations that your dog has been through … and the less like the others they are, the less likely he is to be stressed by them. But if this IS a vicious cycle, it’s worth talking it over with a vet or better yet, a veterinary behaviorist. The dog might need a "jump start" to get over the anxiety. & Edric the Wonder Mutt, Kati the world’s hairiest Akita, __ /|__ Gypsy the brindle pinto pogo stick, ah, I mean Akita, / ___/ ^_/ and Battlecat & Cringer, who think all dogs are dumb / | (oh, yeah, there might be a husband under all the hair) / — / "If I don’t vacuum for another year, maybe I’ll finally || || have wall-to-wall carpeting!"
Response:
(Clay Luther) writes: >First, she understands that she should go outside and will occasionally >approach the door. Just last week she wined while pointing towards the door. >Small victories. >However, we still have daily accidents in her kennel (sometimes three a day) >and we cannot fathom anyway to break her of this bad habit. >We have tried putting her in a variety of kennel sizes, from kennels just >large enough for her lie down lengthwise to a kennel large enough for her to >move around in to a penned area in the kitchen. She uses all of them with >equal proclivity. We have tried removing all soft-absorbent materials. Still >no success. We have come home from work every two hours to let her out.
Looks like she’s in the habit of soiling her crate all right. (Was she from a pet store, BTW?) Anyhow, stop crate training. It’s a good method, not the Word Of God. Use paper training. Better yet "sod training". Barabara Woodhouse describes it in one of her books. Put the dog in a large crate with a big pan full of sod in the end. It should go on the sod (you know, grass with the roots and dirt attatched) and sleep on the clean part. Eventually, the dog may forget it’s (now ingrained) habit of soiling its crate, and only want to go on grass. You have a head start since the dog already goes outside. For those who don’t remember, paper training was used ubiquitously before crates were in vougue. Lay down newspapers everywhere so the pups learn to eliminate on them. then slowly reduce the coverage of the papers. Eventually the pup goes on a small patch of papers next to the door, then a patch halfway under the door (so half is outside the closed door). Next there is a pile of papers outside and finally no papers at all. Damon — Tulane University Computer Science Dept.
Response:
(Lynda Oleksuk) writes:
[dog constantly eliminates in crate] >issue with your vet and ask about tranquilizers. It sounds like she’s gotten >into a very vicious cycle that needs to be broken, and perhaps "solving" the >problem temporarily by using drugs might help. Let me explain how I see this: >if she’s peeing/pooping because of anxiety (which is usually the case) then
Interesting. I never considered a dog being so traumatized that it constantly soils its sleeping area. But why would this dog also soil the kitchen when isolated there? Why not soil the house when she was out of the crate for 10 hrs? And in either case, why not remove the source of the stress — the crate — rather than drug the dog? How can you tell if the dog is stressed or if it has just developed a habit of soiling its sleeping area? Damon — Tulane University Computer Science Dept.
Response:
One thought: how does she respond to other animals? Something may be happening while both of you are at work. My dogs go crazy when there is an animal outside and they can’t go out. For instance if you walk her on a leash, she looks out the window, sees dog with person (or not) walking (rest break) she may get excited, may associate, may want to go herself, may have no choice. And the fact that she is doing it in the bathroom suggests that she doesn’t want to go in the house, she just can not hold it. Perhaps infection, or she is ill? : > : >We have a seven month old IG and housetraining is not coming along very well. : > : >First, she understands that she should go outside and will occasionally : >approach the door. Just last week she wined while pointing towards the door. : >Small victories. : Clay, : Well, pointing to the door *is* a great thing! Max does : this – rarely. : One of the first things that popped into my mind is Bladder : infection. Has she been checked by the vet? If she has to : go often, and pees outside several times, sometimes : producing little, this is a definite possibility. : One thing you didn’t mention is praise. Max never goes : outside without me. Part of the point here is to Praise, : praise, praise for going outside! She’s 6 months old and I : *still* praise her for going outside. -every time. : The method we’re using with Max (and we still have accidents : once in a while, but it’s getting better) is bell training. : I bought a small cowbell and hung it in the hallway. Every : time we go out to pee, I point out the bell, ring it, and : praise her madly. Then we race out to pee. : She does ring it now to go out. She also rings it to get : attention and go play. To work against this, when she rings : it, I snap her leash on, we go out, and if she doesn’t : produce, we go right back inside. "This is not a walk, nor : a playtime. We’re here on business." Then, a few minutes : after we come back inside, I "get" the idea to go play. : That way, she doesn’t learn, ringbell=play. : Good luck! : and Max West, female black Lab pup : 6 months and still wiggling…
Response:
>We have a seven month old IG and housetraining is not coming along very well. >First, she understands that she should go outside and will occasionally >approach the door. Just last week she wined while pointing towards the door. >Small victories.
Clay, Well, pointing to the door *is* a great thing! Max does this – rarely. One of the first things that popped into my mind is Bladder infection. Has she been checked by the vet? If she has to go often, and pees outside several times, sometimes producing little, this is a definite possibility. One thing you didn’t mention is praise. Max never goes outside without me. Part of the point here is to Praise, praise, praise for going outside! She’s 6 months old and I *still* praise her for going outside. -every time. The method we’re using with Max (and we still have accidents once in a while, but it’s getting better) is bell training. I bought a small cowbell and hung it in the hallway. Every time we go out to pee, I point out the bell, ring it, and praise her madly. Then we race out to pee. She does ring it now to go out. She also rings it to get attention and go play. To work against this, when she rings it, I snap her leash on, we go out, and if she doesn’t produce, we go right back inside. "This is not a walk, nor a playtime. We’re here on business." Then, a few minutes after we come back inside, I "get" the idea to go play. That way, she doesn’t learn, ringbell=play. Good luck! and Max West, female black Lab pup 6 months and still wiggling…
Response:
> So, how in the world do you break a puppy of the kennel-going habit when she > will doesn’t respond to "conventional" dog-owner wisdom?
You don’t say where you purchased this dog, but my guess is that it spent a lot of time in a kennel, crate, or pen while it was growing before you got her. The reason I say this is it sounds like the puppy has completely overcome the instinct of keeping its immediate quarters clean, as is the case with puppies that were raised (from birth to adoption) in conditions that were unclean. Puppies will unlearn this instinct, and frequently this is a problem with pet shop pups who have no other choice BUT to dirty their crates. My suggestion is to go backwards. Take the door off the crate, put the crate in a small, confined area (a pen, a bathroom, etc). Put papers down in one corner, preferably "wee-wee pads" that are specially scented, or buy some "housbreaking drops" and put it on newspapers. Put a blanket in the bottom of the crate so that the dog will look at it as her bed. With a little luck and patience you will be able to paper train the pup so she will go on the papers, not in the crate while you are away. After some time (say two weeks of good behavior of only going on the papers) try crating for short sessions. You say you come home every few hours, well try leaving the dog uncrated (but always confined in the same area) and then crate her after your first visit. At the next visit, uncrate her again. Little by little you will be able to re-train her that bedding areas should be kept clean. Good luck! Sue Jeffrey Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center New York City
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