Question:
Bad advice. Legionnaire’s disease is rarely spread by home heating equipment. Plus you are much more likely to get burned from the hot water. Not to mention, pay higher energy bills. Keep your water heater at 120 degrees F. Jeff Utz
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Don’t lower the temperature to a setting below 140F. You can get legionaire’s > disease if you do so. > Louis > jtnews schreef: > > Why are you drinking water our of the hot water system? The hot water > > contains more lead because the water tends to sit more in the tank and > > hot water gets more lead in it from copper pipes than cold water. > Who said anything about deliberately > drinking water out of the hot water system? Whenever > you run even just the cold water, there is enough > residual hot water in the pipes to get you sick > if the hot water boiler is contaminated. > > I think that flushing out pipes for a while is usually good enough. > > There are millions of homes that have well water (no chlorine). I do > > not believe plumbers clean out pipes before using them. They just let > > the water run through for a while before using for drinking and stuff. > > So I doubt the problem is your hot water. ALso, if you live where you > > have chlorine in your water, the chlorine should take care of just > > about everything (it won’t take care of giardia or cryptosporidium, but > > it gets almost everything else). > > Finally, if you want to get rid of bacteria, you need to bring the > > water to boiling for about 10 minutes before using for drinking. > > Turn your water temp back to 120 F, before you get someone in your > > house burned from the hot water. > I did have it at 120F before, but that’s when I started > having problems. Although 150F may not kill as much bacteria > as boiling it, at least it will reduce the number of organisms > compared to a lower temperature.
Response:
>Bad advice. Legionnaire’s disease is rarely spread by home heating >equipment. Plus you are much more likely to get burned from the hot water.
Agree with you 110%. Just another case of people inordinately fearing a highly unlikely peril. Now, if the solution to that peril had no cost, sure go ahead and guard against the theoretical possibility. But in a real world cost-benefit analysis, I’d not run the risk of scalds for the very minute peril. No, of course I’d rather be scalded on the hand than die of Legionnaire’s, but that is really NOT the choice now is it? I will not surely die if I set it lower. Just like the false logic of the 55 mph’ers who say ‘would you rather die in a crash or get there 10 minutes sooner’? Millions of people would indeed rather get there 10 minutes sooner twice a day every day, in exchange for the risk that they might be the 1 person in say 10 million that might actually get in that extra accident from going 10 mph faster. Oh well, do what you want in your house. In mine I don’t feel the need to ’sterilize’ or ‘decontaminate’ my dishes, I just wash ‘em clean. -v.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Bad advice. Legionnaire’s disease is rarely spread by home heating >equipment. Plus you are much more likely to get burned from the hot water. > Agree with you 110%. Just another case of people inordinately fearing > a highly unlikely peril. Now, if the solution to that peril had no > cost, sure go ahead and guard against the theoretical possibility. > But in a real world cost-benefit analysis, I’d not run the risk of > scalds for the very minute peril. > No, of course I’d rather be scalded on the hand than die of > Legionnaire’s, but that is really NOT the choice now is it? I will > not surely die if I set it lower. Just like the false logic of the 55 > mph’ers who say ‘would you rather die in a crash or get there 10 > minutes sooner’? Millions of people would indeed rather get there 10 > minutes sooner twice a day every day, in exchange for the risk that > they might be the 1 person in say 10 million that might actually get > in that extra accident from going 10 mph faster.
Actually, as cars get safer and speed limits rise, the death rates go down. I think it has to do with people are driving closer to the same speed. It is not the speed that kills, but people driving at different speeds on the same highway. jeff Utz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Oh well, do what you want in your house. In mine I don’t feel the > need to ’sterilize’ or ‘decontaminate’ my dishes, I just wash ‘em > clean. > -v.
Response:
I just finished reading a newspaper article concerning Ford shutting down two plants due to a few deaths from ‘Legionnaire’s. The shutdown was while they sanitized (production) water coolers and employee showers, two entirely different waters but the potable one is heated by water heaters. For folks using private well water as their water source, this may be an important problem. Personally I think blanket application of ‘codes’, regulations and such may be a mistake when the differences between ‘city’ water and private wells are not taken into consideration. Someone burning their fingers etc. is not the same as contracting a potentially deadly disease. People learn how to test the water temp from bad experience, not breathing while in the tub or shower isn’t a choice. Gary Quality Water – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Bad advice. Legionnaire’s disease is rarely spread by home heating > >equipment. Plus you are much more likely to get burned from the hot > water. > Agree with you 110%. Just another case of people inordinately fearing > a highly unlikely peril. Now, if the solution to that peril had no > cost, sure go ahead and guard against the theoretical possibility. > But in a real world cost-benefit analysis, I’d not run the risk of > scalds for the very minute peril. > No, of course I’d rather be scalded on the hand than die of > Legionnaire’s, but that is really NOT the choice now is it? I will > not surely die if I set it lower. Just like the false logic of the 55 > mph’ers who say ‘would you rather die in a crash or get there 10 > minutes sooner’? Millions of people would indeed rather get there 10 > minutes sooner twice a day every day, in exchange for the risk that > they might be the 1 person in say 10 million that might actually get > in that extra accident from going 10 mph faster. > Actually, as cars get safer and speed limits rise, the death rates go down. > I think it has to do with people are driving closer to the same speed. It is > not the speed that kills, but people driving at different speeds on the same > highway. > jeff Utz > Oh well, do what you want in your house. In mine I don’t feel the > need to ’sterilize’ or ‘decontaminate’ my dishes, I just wash ‘em > clean. > -v.
Response:
> An alternative solution is to filter the water. By a filter I mean the same > type of filter back packers ues to filter water. I know it is hard to believe > but the right type of filter will get rid of bacteria in drinking water.
I’ve been in a house where a filter was used before. It’s a real pain having to clean it all the time and it costs money. And if you forget to clean it, a dirty filter can actually cause contamination of your water. It’s not worth the hassle.
Response:
Don’t lower the temperature to a setting below 140F. You can get legionaire’s disease if you do so. Louis jtnews schreef: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Why are you drinking water our of the hot water system? The hot water > contains more lead because the water tends to sit more in the tank and > hot water gets more lead in it from copper pipes than cold water. > Who said anything about deliberately > drinking water out of the hot water system? Whenever > you run even just the cold water, there is enough > residual hot water in the pipes to get you sick > if the hot water boiler is contaminated. > I think that flushing out pipes for a while is usually good enough. > There are millions of homes that have well water (no chlorine). I do > not believe plumbers clean out pipes before using them. They just let > the water run through for a while before using for drinking and stuff. > So I doubt the problem is your hot water. ALso, if you live where you > have chlorine in your water, the chlorine should take care of just > about everything (it won’t take care of giardia or cryptosporidium, but > it gets almost everything else). > Finally, if you want to get rid of bacteria, you need to bring the > water to boiling for about 10 minutes before using for drinking. > Turn your water temp back to 120 F, before you get someone in your > house burned from the hot water. > I did have it at 120F before, but that’s when I started > having problems. Although 150F may not kill as much bacteria > as boiling it, at least it will reduce the number of organisms > compared to a lower temperature.
Response:
> I just finished reading a newspaper article concerning Ford shutting down > two plants due to a few deaths from ‘Legionnaire’s. The shutdown was while > they sanitized (production) water coolers and employee showers, two entirely > different waters but the potable one is heated by water heaters.
And is there any evidence that heating the water to 150 degrees would have made any difference? > For folks using private well water as their water source, this may be an > important problem. Personally I think blanket application of ‘codes’, > regulations and such may be a mistake when the differences between ‘city’ > water and private wells are not taken into consideration.
Was the water at Ford chlorinated or unchlorinated? The water in the Philadelphia hotels that were hosts the first identified Legionaire’s victums was city water. > Someone burning > their fingers etc. is not the same as contracting a potentially deadly > disease. People learn how to test the water temp from bad experience, not > breathing while in the tub or shower isn’t a choice.
How about a grandparent, not realizing the danger, placing her little grandchild in very hot water? Or child taking a shower at grandma’s for the first getting second degree burns over a large part of his body? These burns can be deadly. Or how about an adult typist getting burned on his fingers and not being able to work for a few days? This could cause a loss of a job and homelessness. Sorry, water that is too hot is not an acceptable risk. Jeff Utz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gary > Quality Water > > >Bad advice. Legionnaire’s disease is rarely spread by home heating > > >equipment. Plus you are much more likely to get burned from the hot > water. > > Agree with you 110%. Just another case of people inordinately fearing > > a highly unlikely peril. Now, if the solution to that peril had no > > cost, sure go ahead and guard against the theoretical possibility. > > But in a real world cost-benefit analysis, I’d not run the risk of > > scalds for the very minute peril. > > No, of course I’d rather be scalded on the hand than die of > > Legionnaire’s, but that is really NOT the choice now is it? I will > > not surely die if I set it lower. Just like the false logic of the 55 > > mph’ers who say ‘would you rather die in a crash or get there 10 > > minutes sooner’? Millions of people would indeed rather get there 10 > > minutes sooner twice a day every day, in exchange for the risk that > > they might be the 1 person in say 10 million that might actually get > > in that extra accident from going 10 mph faster. > Actually, as cars get safer and speed limits rise, the death rates go > down. > I think it has to do with people are driving closer to the same speed. It > is > not the speed that kills, but people driving at different speeds on the > same > highway. > jeff Utz > > Oh well, do what you want in your house. In mine I don’t feel the > > need to ’sterilize’ or ‘decontaminate’ my dishes, I just wash ‘em > > clean. > > -v.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Why are you drinking water our of the hot water system? The hot water > contains more lead because the water tends to sit more in the tank and > hot water gets more lead in it from copper pipes than cold water. > Who said anything about deliberately > drinking water out of the hot water system? Whenever > you run even just the cold water, there is enough > residual hot water in the pipes to get you sick > if the hot water boiler is contaminated. > I think that flushing out pipes for a while is usually good enough. > There are millions of homes that have well water (no chlorine). I do > not believe plumbers clean out pipes before using them. They just let > the water run through for a while before using for drinking and stuff. > So I doubt the problem is your hot water. ALso, if you live where you > have chlorine in your water, the chlorine should take care of just > about everything (it won’t take care of giardia or cryptosporidium, but > it gets almost everything else). > Finally, if you want to get rid of bacteria, you need to bring the > water to boiling for about 10 minutes before using for drinking. > Turn your water temp back to 120 F, before you get someone in your > house burned from the hot water. > I did have it at 120F before, but that’s when I started > having problems. Although 150F may not kill as much bacteria > as boiling it, at least it will reduce the number of organisms > compared to a lower temperature.
If you are that concerned, why not take your hot water to be tested for bacteria? My guess is that you have some other cause of disease. You are blaming the wrong thing.
Response:
> I suspect my hot water heater (boiler) > is causing my gastrointestinal problems. > I’ve had the same problem twice. I’ve > now set my hot water heater to 150 degrees > Fahrenheit. Is this good enough to kill > the germs in the boiler? > (I also ran 150F water through my hot water > faucets too).
If you mean you have boiler for heating (hot water baseboard, steam etc.) and domestic hot water (shower etc.) you may have a leak between the two waters. That would be a hole in the domestic coil that is immersed in the boiler water. You should not be ingesting heated water from the faucet. The only ‘mixing’ of hot and cold water is in the faucet. Your 150 degrees is hot enough to kill some bacteria and maybe make others luv ya more. You need a water analysis for bacteria and someone to check the pressure in the boiler. You may have a bad pressure reducing valve on the cold feed line to the boiler and domestic coil. Another good test is to buy bottled water and not use your water for any beverage making, cooking or brushing teeth. Gary Quality Water
Response:
Have you been checked by a Doctor to see if you are not suffering from IBS. Irritable Bowel Syndrome That is one nasty cramp causing disease. High fibre intake was recommended.
Response:
> Surely the two systems should be separate? In the UK it is *required* > that the kitchen tape is fed direct from the water mains, not through a > storage tank or a water heater.
it is separate, but the hot and cold water are mixed through the tap after the hot and cold water knobs in the kitchen sink. >I did have it at 120F before, but that’s when I started >having problems. Although 150F may not kill as much bacteria >as boiling it, at least it will reduce the number of organisms >compared to a lower temperature. > But they may not be the ones giving you the problems, and you also run > the risk of people scalding themselves on the hot water especially > children and the elderly.
But the fact that there were no problems when I had the hot water heater set to a high temperature before seems to indicate that this will solve the problem. I’m really not worried about anyone else scalding themselves since I’m the only one living here.
Response:
Since my hot water heater is set at the max already, I’m going to leave it at 150 deg F for at least a week before I turn it to the normal setting. Note that I measured 150F coming out at the faucet not in the hot water heater itself. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I suspect my hot water heater (boiler) > is causing my gastrointestinal problems. > I’ve had the same problem twice. I’ve > now set my hot water heater to 150 degrees > Fahrenheit. Is this good enough to kill > the germs in the boiler? > There’s an OSHA paper on this which you can find by looking > in google for "hot water recirculation", or something like that. > The paper was on Legionella specifically, but it will apply to > other bacteria. > They recommend: > – setting the thermostat to 160F for 24 hours. > – running the hot water thru the faucets for 20 minutes. > – setting the thermostat back down to a more normal > (140F or 120F) level. > They warn you to be _very_ careful with this while the temperature > setting is so high, because you can get burns from 160F pretty quick. > — > Chris Lewis, > For more information on spam, see http://spam.abuse.net/spam > It’s not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
Response:
>> Surely the two systems should be separate? In the UK it is *required* > that the kitchen tape is fed direct from the water mains, not through a > storage tank or a water heater. >it is separate, but the hot and cold >water are mixed through the tap >after the hot and cold water knobs >in the kitchen sink.
Doesn’t that depend on whether you have just one faucet that swivels L and R for H and C? If there are two separate faucets, with two separate lines feeding in, that mixing wouldn’t occur, would it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >I did have it at 120F before, but that’s when I started > >having problems. Although 150F may not kill as much bacteria > >as boiling it, at least it will reduce the number of organisms > >compared to a lower temperature. > But they may not be the ones giving you the problems, and you also run > the risk of people scalding themselves on the hot water especially > children and the elderly. >But the fact that there were no problems >when I had the hot water heater set to >a high temperature before seems to indicate that >this will solve the problem. >I’m really not worried about anyone else >scalding themselves since I’m the only >one living here.
OK, but you’re important too! — Polar
Response:
>:Isn’t there a county health office >:or some similar govt. entity that >:will test the HW heater for you? >Be careful, if the board of health finds a problem you will be >compelled to fix it as they see fit. I’d find a private >tester and keep the buerocrats out of it.
May "as they see fit" is the proper way! Does the person want the problem fixed right, or fixed cheap? >It is interesting by the way that there are organisms that can survive >boiling and beyond,
Well, yes, if you’re a couple of thousand feet down in the ocean near one of those volcanic vents. however the nasty ones to us are killed by boiling. That’s the point people are trying to make. Poster says they had less trouble with water at 160 than at lower temp — but it’s only 212 for "n" period of time that will really off the little buggers. — Polar
Response:
>>I suspect my hot water heater (boiler) >is causing my gastrointestinal problems. >This isn’t a troll, I hope?
Unfortunately, it is the next best (worst) thing. This "jtnews" person has been posting scads of the most cockamamie obsessive compulsive delusionary schemes I have had the misfotune to see on this newsgroup. I don’t think they’re trolls, I think he really believes in them. He has been very argumentative when people point out how ridiculously illogical some of his assumptions really are. -v.
Response:
> I suspect my hot water heater (boiler) > is causing my gastrointestinal problems. > I’ve had the same problem twice. I’ve > now set my hot water heater to 150 degrees > Fahrenheit. Is this good enough to kill > the germs in the boiler?
There’s an OSHA paper on this which you can find by looking in google for "hot water recirculation", or something like that. The paper was on Legionella specifically, but it will apply to other bacteria. They recommend: – setting the thermostat to 160F for 24 hours. – running the hot water thru the faucets for 20 minutes. – setting the thermostat back down to a more normal (140F or 120F) level. They warn you to be _very_ careful with this while the temperature setting is so high, because you can get burns from 160F pretty quick. — Chris Lewis, For more information on spam, see http://spam.abuse.net/spam It’s not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
Response:
:>Be careful, if the board of health finds a problem you will be :>compelled to fix it as they see fit. I’d find a private :>tester and keep the buerocrats out of it. : :May "as they see fit" is the proper way! Does the :person want the problem fixed right, or fixed cheap? sounds like he wants it fixed cheap<g>. I’d want it done right, but I dont want to be ripping out the plumbing because I’m .1 ppm over some arbitrary legal limit either.
Response:
An alternative solution is to filter the water. By a filter I mean the same type of filter back packers ues to filter water. I know it is hard to believe but the right type of filter will get rid of bacteria in drinking water. says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Surely the two systems should be separate? In the UK it is *required* > that the kitchen tape is fed direct from the water mains, not through a > storage tank or a water heater. >it is separate, but the hot and cold >water are mixed through the tap >after the hot and cold water knobs >in the kitchen sink. > >I did have it at 120F before, but that’s when I started > >having problems. Although 150F may not kill as much bacteria > >as boiling it, at least it will reduce the number of organisms > >compared to a lower temperature. > But they may not be the ones giving you the problems, and you also run > the risk of people scalding themselves on the hot water especially > children and the elderly. >But the fact that there were no problems >when I had the hot water heater set to >a high temperature before seems to indicate that >this will solve the problem. >I’m really not worried about anyone else >scalding themselves since I’m the only >one living here.
Response:
I suspect my hot water heater (boiler) is causing my gastrointestinal problems. I’ve had the same problem twice. I’ve now set my hot water heater to 150 degrees Fahrenheit. Is this good enough to kill the germs in the boiler? (I also ran 150F water through my hot water faucets too).
Response:
>I suspect my hot water heater (boiler) >is causing my gastrointestinal problems. >I’ve had the same problem twice. I’ve >now set my hot water heater to 150 degrees >Fahrenheit. Is this good enough to kill >the germs in the boiler? >(I also ran 150F water through my hot water > faucets too).
Rushing in where I should fear to tread… The boiling point, which is what’s usually required to sterilize, is a lot higher (212). How do you know there are "germs" in the boiler? And if there are, perhaps putting a chemical disinfectant in there and then draining and refilling will handle the problem. Isn’t there a county health office or some similar govt. entity that will test the HW heater for you? Why are you drinking that water, instead of heating cold water from the faucet? This isn’t a troll, I hope? — Polar
Response:
> I suspect my hot water heater (boiler) > is causing my gastrointestinal problems. > I’ve had the same problem twice. I’ve > now set my hot water heater to 150 degrees > Fahrenheit. Is this good enough to kill > the germs in the boiler? > (I also ran 150F water through my hot water > faucets too).
Why are you drinking water our of the hot water system? The hot water contains more lead because the water tends to sit more in the tank and hot water gets more lead in it from copper pipes than cold water. I think that flushing out pipes for a while is usually good enough. There are millions of homes that have well water (no chlorine). I do not believe plumbers clean out pipes before using them. They just let the water run through for a while before using for drinking and stuff. So I doubt the problem is your hot water. ALso, if you live where you have chlorine in your water, the chlorine should take care of just about everything (it won’t take care of giardia or cryptosporidium, but it gets almost everything else). Finally, if you want to get rid of bacteria, you need to bring the water to boiling for about 10 minutes before using for drinking. Turn your water temp back to 120 F, before you get someone in your house burned from the hot water. Jeff Utz
Response:
>I suspect my hot water heater (boiler) is causing my >gastrointestinal problems. I’ve had the same problem twice.
What problems, and why do you think the water heater is responsible? >I’ve now set my hot water heater to 150 degrees Fahrenheit. Is >this good enough to kill >the germs in the boiler?
Depends what germs. To be sure water is sterile, you’re supposed to boil it for 10 minutes, or add chemicals (e.g., chlorine). Chemicals are much safer. Do *not* attempt to boil water in your water heater! Consider this: if your boiler is contaminated, how did it get that way? The water coming into your house must be contaminated, so the cold water is affected too. Have you had your tap water tested for fecal coliform etc.? — Una Szinger "If you can tell good advice from bad advice, you don’t need any advice."
Response:
:Isn’t there a county health office 
r some similar govt. entity that :will test the HW heater for you? Be careful, if the board of health finds a problem you will be compelled to fix it as they see fit. I’d find a private tester and keep the buerocrats out of it. It is interesting by the way that there are organisms that can survive boiling and beyond, however the nasty ones to us are killed by boiling.
Response:
> Why are you drinking water our of the hot water system? The hot water > contains more lead because the water tends to sit more in the tank and > hot water gets more lead in it from copper pipes than cold water.
Who said anything about deliberately drinking water out of the hot water system? Whenever you run even just the cold water, there is enough residual hot water in the pipes to get you sick if the hot water boiler is contaminated. > I think that flushing out pipes for a while is usually good enough. > There are millions of homes that have well water (no chlorine). I do > not believe plumbers clean out pipes before using them. They just let > the water run through for a while before using for drinking and stuff. > So I doubt the problem is your hot water. ALso, if you live where you > have chlorine in your water, the chlorine should take care of just > about everything (it won’t take care of giardia or cryptosporidium, but > it gets almost everything else). > Finally, if you want to get rid of bacteria, you need to bring the > water to boiling for about 10 minutes before using for drinking. > Turn your water temp back to 120 F, before you get someone in your > house burned from the hot water.
I did have it at 120F before, but that’s when I started having problems. Although 150F may not kill as much bacteria as boiling it, at least it will reduce the number of organisms compared to a lower temperature.
Response:
>> Why are you drinking water our of the hot water system? The hot water > contains more lead because the water tends to sit more in the tank and > hot water gets more lead in it from copper pipes than cold water. >Who said anything about deliberately >drinking water out of the hot water system? Whenever >you run even just the cold water, there is enough >residual hot water in the pipes to get you sick >if the hot water boiler is contaminated.
Surely the two systems should be separate? In the UK it is *required* that the kitchen tape is fed direct from the water mains, not through a storage tank or a water heater. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I think that flushing out pipes for a while is usually good enough. > There are millions of homes that have well water (no chlorine). I do > not believe plumbers clean out pipes before using them. They just let > the water run through for a while before using for drinking and stuff. > So I doubt the problem is your hot water. ALso, if you live where you > have chlorine in your water, the chlorine should take care of just > about everything (it won’t take care of giardia or cryptosporidium, but > it gets almost everything else). > Finally, if you want to get rid of bacteria, you need to bring the > water to boiling for about 10 minutes before using for drinking. > Turn your water temp back to 120 F, before you get someone in your > house burned from the hot water. >I did have it at 120F before, but that’s when I started >having problems. Although 150F may not kill as much bacteria >as boiling it, at least it will reduce the number of organisms >compared to a lower temperature.
But they may not be the ones giving you the problems, and you also run the risk of people scalding themselves on the hot water especially children and the elderly. — Surfer! My return is address at Hotmail. If you really want to send me email then use: surfer at nevis-view dot demon dot co dot uk "I can resist anything but temptation" – Oscar Wilde 
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