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Question:

"Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid collected a $1.1 million windfall on a Las Vegas land sale even though HE had NOT personally OWNED the PROPERTY for three years, property deeds show." "In 2001, Reid sold the land for the same price to a limited liability corporation created by Brown. The senator did NOT DISCLOSE the sale on his annual public ETHICS REPORT or tell Congress he had any stake in Brown’s company. He CONTINUED TO REPORT to Congress that HE personally OWNED the land." "Senate ethics rules require lawmakers to disclose on their annual ethics report all transactions involving investment properties _ regardless of profit or loss _ and to report any ownership stake in companies. Kent Cooper, who oversaw government disclosure reports for federal candidates for two decades in the Federal Election Commission, said REID’s failure to report the 2001 sale and his ties to Brown’s company VIOLATED SENATE RULES." "Reid hung up the phone when questioned about the deal during an AP interview last week." http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/11/D8KMJ8I00.html

Response:

If he violated some ethics rule, then he should be reprimanded. However, it’s not clear to me what Reid did wrong?  He reported the sale in 2004 when he got the money. I say that this is another right-wing attempt to smear a good man. This article makes it sound like it’s a crime to make a triple-fold profit on a land deal.   Anyone living out west knows that this has happened a lot recently. Mr Soul

Response:

The AP’s John Solomon, the go-to guy at the Associated Press for any anti-Democratic efforts, and this piece is absolute crap. The crux of the claim: Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid collected a $1.1 million windfall on a Las Vegas land sale even though he hadn’t personally owned the property for three years, property deeds show. Actually, he did own that land. It just so happened that three years ago, he transfered the property from his own personal name to that of an LLC. It’d be kind of like me selling Daily Kos, and someone claiming I reaped a windfall from it because I "sold it three years ago". I didn’t. Daily Kos became an LLC. As did Reid’s piece of land. And btw, this was all disclosed to the ethics committee. The place were things got sloppy is that Reid continued to disclose ownership of the land as a personal asset rather than ownership in the LLC which owned the land. But that’s it. Fact is, the LLC had no other assets other than this piece of land, and Reid disclosed ownership of the piece of land. Solomon is either being dishonest or an idiot. But watch the wingers and GOP try to gain traction off this story to divert from their coddling of a sexual predator. suggest that Reid used his position of authority to boost the value of the land. That would be troublesome. As it is in NC-11 where Rep. Charles Taylor (R) used earmarks to line his pockets: New Report Shows Taylor’s Earmarks Benefit Land he Owns. According to a new report by the Wall Street Journal, Charles Taylor, a wealthy businessman and banker, was able to get millions of dollars in earmarks for his district to improve land where Taylor owns thousands of acres and where he has even developed. The report shows that Taylor owns at least 14,000 acres of prime land in his district, some of which is near the main highway in Maggie Valley which, last year, received $11.4 million in federal dollars. Taylor’s companies own thousands of acres near the highway and had already developed a subdivision called Maggie Valley Leisure Estates. Another earmark last year sent $4.8 million to widen a highway through timber tracts that Taylor’s companies own. He also got millions for a loan for long-time contributors and millions more for improvements to a park that sits directly in front of his flagship bank in the district. Or, let’s shoot even higher: House Speaker Dennis Hastert denied Thursday that he pushed for federal funding for a proposed highway in northeastern Illinois so he and his wife could reap about $1.8 million from land deals near their home in Kendall County. The Sunlight Foundation, a newly created group whose declared aim is to inform the public about what members of Congress do, has accused Hastert of not divulging connections between the $207 million earmark he won for a highway, the Prairie Parkway, and an investment he and his wife made in nearby land. There are others — Reps. Jerry Lewis, Richard Pombo, and Gary Miller for starters. This isn’t a case of "everyone does it". It’s a case of projection — accusing Reid of doing something Republicans have made a habit of doing. That they got the gullible or ideologically compromised Solomon to bite on the non-story was a nice touch, but has no bearing on the reality of the matter.

Response:

>If he violated some ethics rule, then he should be reprimanded. >However, it’s not clear to me what Reid did wrong?  He reported the >sale in 2004 when he got the money. >I say that this is another right-wing attempt to smear a good man. >This article makes it sound like it’s a crime to make a triple-fold >profit on a land deal.   Anyone living out west knows that this has >happened a lot recently.

This whole attempt to divert attention from the fact that today’s GOP is the most corrupt and amoral American political party in living memory has been debunked pretty comprehensively here: <http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/10/11/175829/67> That stink wafting on the wind is Republican flop sweat — for every dubious Dem there are at least a dozen GOPers as bad or worse.  It took the Dems four decades to go power- and money-mad, today’s Republicans have outdone them by light years in only a dozen years.  I’m not saying the Dems are anywhere near perfect, but compared to the GOP they look to be damned near Demosthenes or Cicero these days — and when you can make the likes of Robert "King of Pork" Byrd and Rahm "Richard Daly is my role model" Emanuel look good, you’re big-time bad!

Response:

courageously avow: >That stink wafting on the >wind is Republican flop >sweat >And the stink in AGA is John Wheaton denial sweat…

That or him shitting himself every time he’s caught in a faux pas. — Ken Wilson

Response:

John, It’s ok. He is a Dim. Clarke – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid collected a $1.1 million windfall on a > Las Vegas land sale even though HE had NOT personally OWNED the PROPERTY for > three years, property deeds show." > "In 2001, Reid sold the land for the same price to a limited liability > corporation created by Brown. The senator did NOT DISCLOSE the sale on his > annual public ETHICS REPORT or tell Congress he had any stake in Brown’s > company. He CONTINUED TO REPORT to Congress that HE personally OWNED the > land." > "Senate ethics rules require lawmakers to disclose on their annual ethics > report all transactions involving investment properties _ regardless of > profit or loss _ and to report any ownership stake in companies. > Kent Cooper, who oversaw government disclosure reports for federal > candidates for two decades in the Federal Election Commission, said REID’s > failure to report the 2001 sale and his ties to Brown’s company VIOLATED > SENATE RULES." > "Reid hung up the phone when questioned about the deal during an AP > interview last week."http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/11/D8KMJ8I00.html

Response:

UGH, put your clothes on

Response:

> >That stink wafting on the >wind is Republican flop >sweat > And the stink in AGA is John Wheaton denial sweat…

There are a couple more stenches here: sniff ass has an awful smell of puke from his drooling and fluffy has the odor of a unhygienic vagina. Phew…

Response:

Yes – I assumed that there was an explanation for all this & the article points it out.  Somebody from the right-wing contacted the AP & got them on this story.  The problem is that Reid hung up on them, so it gives fodder for the right. Mr Soul

Response:

Instead of spewing new garbage, why don’t you finish the other thread you started? Chop, chop, give us a link that proves your claim that Monica Lewinsky was 19 when she had her fling with Clinton, even if it IS a ‘blog’. OK? Then you can follow up with a copy of the law that shows that the Government has a law similar to the one the Military has regarding relations between members. You’re very big on demanding that others provide proof, and yet you seem incapable of doing likewise.  There’s a term used to describe this…  Hypocrite  : ) We’ll be waiting.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Instead of spewing new garbage, why don’t you finish the other thread > you started? > Chop, chop, give us a link that proves your claim that Monica Lewinsky > was 19 when she had her fling with Clinton, even if it IS a ‘blog’. OK? > Then you can follow up with a copy of the law that shows that the > Government has a law similar to the one the Military has regarding > relations between members. > You’re very big on demanding that others provide proof, and yet you > seem incapable of doing likewise.  There’s a term used to describe > this…  Hypocrite  : ) > We’ll be waiting.

Yeah, Weenihead wants me to provide proof that Foley *confessed* and was *accused* of child molestation. By doing a google search with those 2 key words, I couldn’t come up with anything from the corporate media or right wing "news"/propaganda sites. And it seems Foley did not literally "confess" and no one has formally accused him literally except on non-righty blogs. But I thought if I quoted one of the blogs (many are opinionated and not really news anymore than Fox), Weeniehead would reject it. I just wish the talkers on Air America would provide their sources. Hell, I even checked out ABC’s site and there’s nothing definative with Foley literally "confessing" or being "accused", but it’s plenty obvious that is the case. He did resign because complaints were made about his molestation. Duh

Response:

> If he violated some ethics rule, then he should be reprimanded. > However, it’s not clear to me what Reid did wrong?  He reported the > sale in 2004 when he got the money.

"In 2001, Reid sold the land for the same price to a limited liability corporation created by Brown. The senator did NOT DISCLOSE the sale on his annual public ETHICS REPORT or tell Congress he had any stake in Brown’s company. He CONTINUED TO REPORT to Congress that HE personally OWNED the land." "Senate ethics rules require lawmakers to disclose on their annual ethics report all transactions involving investment properties _ regardless of profit or loss _ and to report any ownership stake in companies. Kent Cooper, who oversaw government disclosure reports for federal candidates for two decades in the Federal Election Commission, said REID’s failure to report the 2001 sale and his ties to Brown’s company VIOLATED SENATE RULES." "Reid hung up the phone when questioned about the deal during an AP interview last week." http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/11/D8KMJ8I00.html

Response:

> The more the Republicans go down the hole, the more desperate Wheaton’s > dishonest posts become.

Why lie so blatantly? My post contained direct quotes, and I included the link so that NO ONE could honestly contest the accuracy of what I posted. Oops! I forgot that you aren’t honest in your posts! I post clips and links and if I ever pull from any site that is inaccurate, I correct the record as soon as I become aware of it. Those kind of attempts at honesty and accuracy are quite rare in this forum.

Response:

> Instead of spewing new garbage, why don’t you finish the other thread > you started? > Chop, chop, give us a link that proves your claim that Monica Lewinsky > was 19 when she had her fling with Clinton, even if it IS a ‘blog’. OK?

There are many, and again, as soon as you provided a clip with link, I corrected the record. > Then you can follow up with a copy of the law that shows that the > Government has a law similar to the one the Military has regarding > relations between members.

Done in the other thread. > You’re very big on demanding that others provide proof, and yet you > seem incapable of doing likewise.  There’s a term used to describe > this…  Hypocrite  : )

That is pixie in spades.

Response:

> Yeah, Weenihead wants me to provide proof that Foley *confessed* > and was *accused* of child molestation. By doing a google search > with those 2 key words, I couldn’t come up with anything from the > corporate media or right wing "news"/propaganda sites. And it seems > Foley did not literally "confess" and no one has formally accused him > literally except on non-righty blogs. But I thought if I quoted one of the > blogs (many are opinionated and not really news anymore than Fox), > Weeniehead would reject it. I just wish the talkers on Air America > would provide their sources. Hell, I even checked out ABC’s site > and there’s nothing definative with Foley literally "confessing" > or being "accused",

Bingo! Up to this point, you have corrected the record, and we are square. but it’s plenty obvious that is the case. > He did resign because complaints were made about his > molestation. Duh

You went and used that "M" word again, so please provide verification!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yeah, Weenihead wants me to provide proof that Foley *confessed* > and was *accused* of child molestation. By doing a google search > with those 2 key words, I couldn’t come up with anything from the > corporate media or right wing "news"/propaganda sites. And it seems > Foley did not literally "confess" and no one has formally accused him > literally except on non-righty blogs. But I thought if I quoted one of the > blogs (many are opinionated and not really news anymore than Fox), > Weeniehead would reject it. I just wish the talkers on Air America > would provide their sources. Hell, I even checked out ABC’s site > and there’s nothing definative with Foley literally "confessing" > or being "accused", > Bingo! Up to this point, you have corrected the record, and we are square.

So you are relying on semantics to deny reality? That’s really a sick and pathetic approach to living. It’s amazingly petty of you too.        it’s plenty obvious that is the case. > He did resign because complaints were made about his > molestation. Duh > You went and used that "M" word again, so please provide verification!

You mean to tell me you haven’t read any samples of his IMs? You never read any reports of the complaints of the pages? I don’t have to provide you anything if you prefer to bury your head up your ass.

Response:

> You went and used that "M" word again, so please provide verification! > You mean to tell me you haven’t read any samples of his IMs?

Yes, and while they are sick and earning expultion from the Congress, they still do not fit the definition of that "M" word that you keep throwing around. > You never read any reports of the complaints of the pages?

Harassment and molestation, like crank calls vs rape, are two different issues. > I don’t have to provide you anything if you prefer to bury your > head up your ass.

You ignorantly throw words around like you know what they mean. Foley did sick, demented things and he deserved to be removed, but there has been NO evidence of what you have claimed.

Response:

> Why lie so blatantly?

Good question. Why do you lie so blatantly?

Response:

> If he violated some ethics rule, then he should be reprimanded.

On that we agree. > However, it’s not clear to me what Reid did wrong?  He reported the > sale in 2004 when he got the money. > I say that this is another right-wing attempt to smear a good man.

"Stanley Brand, former chief Democratic counsel of the House of Representatives, said Reid should have disclosed the 2001 sale. Former FEC official Kent Cooper, who oversaw federal disclosure forms for two decades, says, "Whether you make a profit or loss, you’ve got to put that transaction down so that the public, voters, can see exactly what kind of money is moving to or from a member of Congress." http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&st…

Response:

> > John, why do we never see any outraged posts from you regarding Jack > Ambramoff and his dealings with Republicans?  Why is that, John?

Because you are either entirely lacking a memory or entirely lacking any integrity. When the Abramoff story broke I repeatedly stated that anyone that broke the law, should be punished. Oops! More of those fact thingies that you Lefties refuse to let influence your views, or posts.

Response:

>>Harassment and molestation, like crank calls vs rape, are two different >issues. > Sexual harrassment is a crime. >Foley did sick, demented things and he deserved to be removed, but there >has >been NO evidence of what you have claimed. > It’s interesting that you are so willing to give Foley the benefit of the > doubt even though it is now common knowledge that his harrassing behavior > has been going on for years.

Ah another Lefty that wants to hang all Repubs, THEN look for some evidence. If you can find a story of Repubs knowing about any Foley messages stating ANYTHING sexual and doing nothing, POST IT.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Harassment and molestation, like crank calls vs rape, are two different >>issues. > Sexual harrassment is a crime. >>Foley did sick, demented things and he deserved to be removed, but there >>has >>been NO evidence of what you have claimed. > It’s interesting that you are so willing to give Foley the benefit of the > doubt even though it is now common knowledge that his harrassing behavior > has been going on for years. > Ah another Lefty that wants to hang all Repubs, THEN look for some evidence.

Ahh, paranoia and persecution complex’s are such sad emotional states, aren’t they? Nowhwere does the poster say anything about ‘all Repubs’, John boy.  : ) You outdo yourself on every post!

Response:

> > Instead of spewing new garbage, why don’t you finish the other thread > you started? > Chop, chop, give us a link that proves your claim that Monica Lewinsky > was 19 when she had her fling with Clinton, even if it IS a ‘blog’. OK? > There are many, and again, as soon as you provided a clip with link, I > corrected the record.

Well, if there are ‘many’, you should have no problem linking to a few, right?  : ) > Then you can follow up with a copy of the law that shows that the > Government has a law similar to the one the Military has regarding > relations between members. > Done in the other thread.

Bullshit, but that’s to be expected.  You’ve provided nothing to substantiate your claim that there are rules forbidding contact between government employees like those of the Military. > You’re very big on demanding that others provide proof, and yet you > seem incapable of doing likewise.  There’s a term used to describe > this…  Hypocrite  : )

 It’s your hat, you wear it!

Response:

Breaking an ethics rule is different than breaking the law.  Hopefully even you can see that. Again – did Reid actually sell the property to the LLC?  If he did & if he should have reported it, then he broke a rule.  Let’s let the Senate ethics committee deal with that though. This is different that Bob Ney & Abramoff who broke bribery and other laws. Mr Soul

Response:

> Breaking an ethics rule is different than breaking the law.  Hopefully > even you can see that.

Why the ignorant response? If you would care to read the header it does NOT say law, it says "Dem Leader’s ETHICS Problem". > Again – did Reid actually sell the property to the LLC?  If he did & if > he should have reported it, then he broke a rule.  Let’s let the Senate > ethics committee deal with that though. > This is different that Bob Ney & Abramoff who broke bribery and other > laws.

DUH. That is why the header does NOT say LAW, it says ETHICS. Oops! I forgot that ethics lapses aren’t a problem for you as long as it is a Dem with ethics problems. Frankly, I would like ALL of the scum removed from Congress, but I seem to be a lone voice in the wilderness since most everyone else here only wants the other side’s problems addressed.

Response:

Question:

"Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid collected a $1.1 million windfall on a Las Vegas land sale even though HE had NOT personally OWNED the PROPERTY for three years, property deeds show." "In 2001, Reid sold the land for the same price to a limited liability corporation created by Brown. The senator did NOT DISCLOSE the sale on his annual public ETHICS REPORT or tell Congress he had any stake in Brown’s company. He CONTINUED TO REPORT to Congress that HE personally OWNED the land." "Senate ethics rules require lawmakers to disclose on their annual ethics report all transactions involving investment properties _ regardless of profit or loss _ and to report any ownership stake in companies. Kent Cooper, who oversaw government disclosure reports for federal candidates for two decades in the Federal Election Commission, said REID’s failure to report the 2001 sale and his ties to Brown’s company VIOLATED SENATE RULES." "Reid hung up the phone when questioned about the deal during an AP interview last week." http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/11/D8KMJ8I00.html

Response:

If he violated some ethics rule, then he should be reprimanded. However, it’s not clear to me what Reid did wrong?  He reported the sale in 2004 when he got the money. I say that this is another right-wing attempt to smear a good man. This article makes it sound like it’s a crime to make a triple-fold profit on a land deal.   Anyone living out west knows that this has happened a lot recently. Mr Soul

Response:

The AP’s John Solomon, the go-to guy at the Associated Press for any anti-Democratic efforts, and this piece is absolute crap. The crux of the claim: Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid collected a $1.1 million windfall on a Las Vegas land sale even though he hadn’t personally owned the property for three years, property deeds show. Actually, he did own that land. It just so happened that three years ago, he transfered the property from his own personal name to that of an LLC. It’d be kind of like me selling Daily Kos, and someone claiming I reaped a windfall from it because I "sold it three years ago". I didn’t. Daily Kos became an LLC. As did Reid’s piece of land. And btw, this was all disclosed to the ethics committee. The place were things got sloppy is that Reid continued to disclose ownership of the land as a personal asset rather than ownership in the LLC which owned the land. But that’s it. Fact is, the LLC had no other assets other than this piece of land, and Reid disclosed ownership of the piece of land. Solomon is either being dishonest or an idiot. But watch the wingers and GOP try to gain traction off this story to divert from their coddling of a sexual predator. suggest that Reid used his position of authority to boost the value of the land. That would be troublesome. As it is in NC-11 where Rep. Charles Taylor (R) used earmarks to line his pockets: New Report Shows Taylor’s Earmarks Benefit Land he Owns. According to a new report by the Wall Street Journal, Charles Taylor, a wealthy businessman and banker, was able to get millions of dollars in earmarks for his district to improve land where Taylor owns thousands of acres and where he has even developed. The report shows that Taylor owns at least 14,000 acres of prime land in his district, some of which is near the main highway in Maggie Valley which, last year, received $11.4 million in federal dollars. Taylor’s companies own thousands of acres near the highway and had already developed a subdivision called Maggie Valley Leisure Estates. Another earmark last year sent $4.8 million to widen a highway through timber tracts that Taylor’s companies own. He also got millions for a loan for long-time contributors and millions more for improvements to a park that sits directly in front of his flagship bank in the district. Or, let’s shoot even higher: House Speaker Dennis Hastert denied Thursday that he pushed for federal funding for a proposed highway in northeastern Illinois so he and his wife could reap about $1.8 million from land deals near their home in Kendall County. The Sunlight Foundation, a newly created group whose declared aim is to inform the public about what members of Congress do, has accused Hastert of not divulging connections between the $207 million earmark he won for a highway, the Prairie Parkway, and an investment he and his wife made in nearby land. There are others — Reps. Jerry Lewis, Richard Pombo, and Gary Miller for starters. This isn’t a case of "everyone does it". It’s a case of projection — accusing Reid of doing something Republicans have made a habit of doing. That they got the gullible or ideologically compromised Solomon to bite on the non-story was a nice touch, but has no bearing on the reality of the matter.

Response:

>If he violated some ethics rule, then he should be reprimanded. >However, it’s not clear to me what Reid did wrong?  He reported the >sale in 2004 when he got the money. >I say that this is another right-wing attempt to smear a good man. >This article makes it sound like it’s a crime to make a triple-fold >profit on a land deal.   Anyone living out west knows that this has >happened a lot recently.

This whole attempt to divert attention from the fact that today’s GOP is the most corrupt and amoral American political party in living memory has been debunked pretty comprehensively here: <http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/10/11/175829/67> That stink wafting on the wind is Republican flop sweat — for every dubious Dem there are at least a dozen GOPers as bad or worse.  It took the Dems four decades to go power- and money-mad, today’s Republicans have outdone them by light years in only a dozen years.  I’m not saying the Dems are anywhere near perfect, but compared to the GOP they look to be damned near Demosthenes or Cicero these days — and when you can make the likes of Robert "King of Pork" Byrd and Rahm "Richard Daly is my role model" Emanuel look good, you’re big-time bad!

Response:

courageously avow: >That stink wafting on the >wind is Republican flop >sweat >And the stink in AGA is John Wheaton denial sweat…

That or him shitting himself every time he’s caught in a faux pas. — Ken Wilson

Response:

John, It’s ok. He is a Dim. Clarke – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid collected a $1.1 million windfall on a > Las Vegas land sale even though HE had NOT personally OWNED the PROPERTY for > three years, property deeds show." > "In 2001, Reid sold the land for the same price to a limited liability > corporation created by Brown. The senator did NOT DISCLOSE the sale on his > annual public ETHICS REPORT or tell Congress he had any stake in Brown’s > company. He CONTINUED TO REPORT to Congress that HE personally OWNED the > land." > "Senate ethics rules require lawmakers to disclose on their annual ethics > report all transactions involving investment properties _ regardless of > profit or loss _ and to report any ownership stake in companies. > Kent Cooper, who oversaw government disclosure reports for federal > candidates for two decades in the Federal Election Commission, said REID’s > failure to report the 2001 sale and his ties to Brown’s company VIOLATED > SENATE RULES." > "Reid hung up the phone when questioned about the deal during an AP > interview last week."http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/11/D8KMJ8I00.html

Response:

UGH, put your clothes on

Response:

> >That stink wafting on the >wind is Republican flop >sweat > And the stink in AGA is John Wheaton denial sweat…

There are a couple more stenches here: sniff ass has an awful smell of puke from his drooling and fluffy has the odor of a unhygienic vagina. Phew…

Response:

Yes – I assumed that there was an explanation for all this & the article points it out.  Somebody from the right-wing contacted the AP & got them on this story.  The problem is that Reid hung up on them, so it gives fodder for the right. Mr Soul

Response:

Instead of spewing new garbage, why don’t you finish the other thread you started? Chop, chop, give us a link that proves your claim that Monica Lewinsky was 19 when she had her fling with Clinton, even if it IS a ‘blog’. OK? Then you can follow up with a copy of the law that shows that the Government has a law similar to the one the Military has regarding relations between members. You’re very big on demanding that others provide proof, and yet you seem incapable of doing likewise.  There’s a term used to describe this…  Hypocrite  : ) We’ll be waiting.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Instead of spewing new garbage, why don’t you finish the other thread > you started? > Chop, chop, give us a link that proves your claim that Monica Lewinsky > was 19 when she had her fling with Clinton, even if it IS a ‘blog’. OK? > Then you can follow up with a copy of the law that shows that the > Government has a law similar to the one the Military has regarding > relations between members. > You’re very big on demanding that others provide proof, and yet you > seem incapable of doing likewise.  There’s a term used to describe > this…  Hypocrite  : ) > We’ll be waiting.

Yeah, Weenihead wants me to provide proof that Foley *confessed* and was *accused* of child molestation. By doing a google search with those 2 key words, I couldn’t come up with anything from the corporate media or right wing "news"/propaganda sites. And it seems Foley did not literally "confess" and no one has formally accused him literally except on non-righty blogs. But I thought if I quoted one of the blogs (many are opinionated and not really news anymore than Fox), Weeniehead would reject it. I just wish the talkers on Air America would provide their sources. Hell, I even checked out ABC’s site and there’s nothing definative with Foley literally "confessing" or being "accused", but it’s plenty obvious that is the case. He did resign because complaints were made about his molestation. Duh

Response:

> If he violated some ethics rule, then he should be reprimanded. > However, it’s not clear to me what Reid did wrong?  He reported the > sale in 2004 when he got the money.

"In 2001, Reid sold the land for the same price to a limited liability corporation created by Brown. The senator did NOT DISCLOSE the sale on his annual public ETHICS REPORT or tell Congress he had any stake in Brown’s company. He CONTINUED TO REPORT to Congress that HE personally OWNED the land." "Senate ethics rules require lawmakers to disclose on their annual ethics report all transactions involving investment properties _ regardless of profit or loss _ and to report any ownership stake in companies. Kent Cooper, who oversaw government disclosure reports for federal candidates for two decades in the Federal Election Commission, said REID’s failure to report the 2001 sale and his ties to Brown’s company VIOLATED SENATE RULES." "Reid hung up the phone when questioned about the deal during an AP interview last week." http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/11/D8KMJ8I00.html

Response:

> The more the Republicans go down the hole, the more desperate Wheaton’s > dishonest posts become.

Why lie so blatantly? My post contained direct quotes, and I included the link so that NO ONE could honestly contest the accuracy of what I posted. Oops! I forgot that you aren’t honest in your posts! I post clips and links and if I ever pull from any site that is inaccurate, I correct the record as soon as I become aware of it. Those kind of attempts at honesty and accuracy are quite rare in this forum.

Response:

> Instead of spewing new garbage, why don’t you finish the other thread > you started? > Chop, chop, give us a link that proves your claim that Monica Lewinsky > was 19 when she had her fling with Clinton, even if it IS a ‘blog’. OK?

There are many, and again, as soon as you provided a clip with link, I corrected the record. > Then you can follow up with a copy of the law that shows that the > Government has a law similar to the one the Military has regarding > relations between members.

Done in the other thread. > You’re very big on demanding that others provide proof, and yet you > seem incapable of doing likewise.  There’s a term used to describe > this…  Hypocrite  : )

That is pixie in spades.

Response:

> Yeah, Weenihead wants me to provide proof that Foley *confessed* > and was *accused* of child molestation. By doing a google search > with those 2 key words, I couldn’t come up with anything from the > corporate media or right wing "news"/propaganda sites. And it seems > Foley did not literally "confess" and no one has formally accused him > literally except on non-righty blogs. But I thought if I quoted one of the > blogs (many are opinionated and not really news anymore than Fox), > Weeniehead would reject it. I just wish the talkers on Air America > would provide their sources. Hell, I even checked out ABC’s site > and there’s nothing definative with Foley literally "confessing" > or being "accused",

Bingo! Up to this point, you have corrected the record, and we are square. but it’s plenty obvious that is the case. > He did resign because complaints were made about his > molestation. Duh

You went and used that "M" word again, so please provide verification!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yeah, Weenihead wants me to provide proof that Foley *confessed* > and was *accused* of child molestation. By doing a google search > with those 2 key words, I couldn’t come up with anything from the > corporate media or right wing "news"/propaganda sites. And it seems > Foley did not literally "confess" and no one has formally accused him > literally except on non-righty blogs. But I thought if I quoted one of the > blogs (many are opinionated and not really news anymore than Fox), > Weeniehead would reject it. I just wish the talkers on Air America > would provide their sources. Hell, I even checked out ABC’s site > and there’s nothing definative with Foley literally "confessing" > or being "accused", > Bingo! Up to this point, you have corrected the record, and we are square.

So you are relying on semantics to deny reality? That’s really a sick and pathetic approach to living. It’s amazingly petty of you too.        it’s plenty obvious that is the case. > He did resign because complaints were made about his > molestation. Duh > You went and used that "M" word again, so please provide verification!

You mean to tell me you haven’t read any samples of his IMs? You never read any reports of the complaints of the pages? I don’t have to provide you anything if you prefer to bury your head up your ass.

Response:

> You went and used that "M" word again, so please provide verification! > You mean to tell me you haven’t read any samples of his IMs?

Yes, and while they are sick and earning expultion from the Congress, they still do not fit the definition of that "M" word that you keep throwing around. > You never read any reports of the complaints of the pages?

Harassment and molestation, like crank calls vs rape, are two different issues. > I don’t have to provide you anything if you prefer to bury your > head up your ass.

You ignorantly throw words around like you know what they mean. Foley did sick, demented things and he deserved to be removed, but there has been NO evidence of what you have claimed.

Response:

> Why lie so blatantly?

Good question. Why do you lie so blatantly?

Response:

> If he violated some ethics rule, then he should be reprimanded.

On that we agree. > However, it’s not clear to me what Reid did wrong?  He reported the > sale in 2004 when he got the money. > I say that this is another right-wing attempt to smear a good man.

"Stanley Brand, former chief Democratic counsel of the House of Representatives, said Reid should have disclosed the 2001 sale. Former FEC official Kent Cooper, who oversaw federal disclosure forms for two decades, says, "Whether you make a profit or loss, you’ve got to put that transaction down so that the public, voters, can see exactly what kind of money is moving to or from a member of Congress." http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&st…

Response:

> > John, why do we never see any outraged posts from you regarding Jack > Ambramoff and his dealings with Republicans?  Why is that, John?

Because you are either entirely lacking a memory or entirely lacking any integrity. When the Abramoff story broke I repeatedly stated that anyone that broke the law, should be punished. Oops! More of those fact thingies that you Lefties refuse to let influence your views, or posts.

Response:

>>Harassment and molestation, like crank calls vs rape, are two different >issues. > Sexual harrassment is a crime. >Foley did sick, demented things and he deserved to be removed, but there >has >been NO evidence of what you have claimed. > It’s interesting that you are so willing to give Foley the benefit of the > doubt even though it is now common knowledge that his harrassing behavior > has been going on for years.

Ah another Lefty that wants to hang all Repubs, THEN look for some evidence. If you can find a story of Repubs knowing about any Foley messages stating ANYTHING sexual and doing nothing, POST IT.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Harassment and molestation, like crank calls vs rape, are two different >>issues. > Sexual harrassment is a crime. >>Foley did sick, demented things and he deserved to be removed, but there >>has >>been NO evidence of what you have claimed. > It’s interesting that you are so willing to give Foley the benefit of the > doubt even though it is now common knowledge that his harrassing behavior > has been going on for years. > Ah another Lefty that wants to hang all Repubs, THEN look for some evidence.

Ahh, paranoia and persecution complex’s are such sad emotional states, aren’t they? Nowhwere does the poster say anything about ‘all Repubs’, John boy.  : ) You outdo yourself on every post!

Response:

> > Instead of spewing new garbage, why don’t you finish the other thread > you started? > Chop, chop, give us a link that proves your claim that Monica Lewinsky > was 19 when she had her fling with Clinton, even if it IS a ‘blog’. OK? > There are many, and again, as soon as you provided a clip with link, I > corrected the record.

Well, if there are ‘many’, you should have no problem linking to a few, right?  : ) > Then you can follow up with a copy of the law that shows that the > Government has a law similar to the one the Military has regarding > relations between members. > Done in the other thread.

Bullshit, but that’s to be expected.  You’ve provided nothing to substantiate your claim that there are rules forbidding contact between government employees like those of the Military. > You’re very big on demanding that others provide proof, and yet you > seem incapable of doing likewise.  There’s a term used to describe > this…  Hypocrite  : )

 It’s your hat, you wear it!

Response:

Breaking an ethics rule is different than breaking the law.  Hopefully even you can see that. Again – did Reid actually sell the property to the LLC?  If he did & if he should have reported it, then he broke a rule.  Let’s let the Senate ethics committee deal with that though. This is different that Bob Ney & Abramoff who broke bribery and other laws. Mr Soul

Response:

> Breaking an ethics rule is different than breaking the law.  Hopefully > even you can see that.

Why the ignorant response? If you would care to read the header it does NOT say law, it says "Dem Leader’s ETHICS Problem". > Again – did Reid actually sell the property to the LLC?  If he did & if > he should have reported it, then he broke a rule.  Let’s let the Senate > ethics committee deal with that though. > This is different that Bob Ney & Abramoff who broke bribery and other > laws.

DUH. That is why the header does NOT say LAW, it says ETHICS. Oops! I forgot that ethics lapses aren’t a problem for you as long as it is a Dem with ethics problems. Frankly, I would like ALL of the scum removed from Congress, but I seem to be a lone voice in the wilderness since most everyone else here only wants the other side’s problems addressed.

Response:

Question:

General William Odom, former head of the National Security Agency, believes the only way to stabilize the Middle East is to leave Iraq now. The retired general points out that we are alienating our allies and we need a coalition to help us stabilize the region. The idea that things will be worse when we leave misperceives that we are causing those very things today — we have created civil war in the region. The longer we stay, the worse the situation will become. Staying in and making matters worse, will embolden the terrorists even more — we don’t have a choice but to leave. _____ CNN Video here: http://dailydissent.org/video/cnnodom120205a.wmv        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

"WE" created a civil war in the region? I guess leaving sadam in power would have prevented that. Also, several thousand years of history doesn’t figure in to that statement either? Keep on blaming the U.S. We are the only bad guys on the planet. When a rag head blows you up, remember you are the bad guy. Lefty bullshit at it’s worst! And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down, There are improvements in most of the country. Finally more Iraqi’s are informing on terrorists & stepping up to help with their independence. Did you believe the sorry bunch that had the power & privilege for 40 years would jus roll over? But lefties only listen to their spin. Yes there will probably be a civil war of some kind. We had one too. I guess England was responsible for that one? Using lefty logic. We sure do not want anyone having to take responsibility for their own actions. You appeasers would have been content to let sadam keep us tied up forever, while he corrupted all the so called allies we have. The terrorist element will eventually die off. But only when everyone works to stop them. Texas Blue

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> General William Odom, former head of the > National Security Agency, believes the only > way to stabilize the Middle East is to leave > Iraq now. The retired general points out > that we are alienating our allies and we > need a coalition to help us stabilize the > region. The idea that things will be worse > when we leave misperceives that we are > causing those very things today — we have > created civil war in the region. The longer > we stay, the worse the situation will > become. Staying in and making matters worse, > will embolden the terrorists even more — we > don’t have a choice but to leave. > _____ > CNN Video here: > http://dailydissent.org/video/cnnodom120205a.wmv >       Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >             >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< > -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

>"WE" created a civil war in the region?

No, we just removed the only effective constraint on the existing ethnic and religious rivalries in what is essentially an artificial country created by our predecessors, the late and unlamented British Empire! >I guess leaving sadam in power would have prevented that.

Yup — at least under Saddam the people only had him and his cronies to fear, now there’s their own local neighbors to worry about.   The American occupation and the insurgency it incited have made the country a much more dangerous place to be than it ever was under the old regime.  A similar thing happen in the Balkans when Tito died — while he had an iron fist looming over everyone, they lived ] together in peace and even intermarried and hosted the Olympics.  The moment their (admittedly cruel and brutal) dictator was gone, they were at each other’s throats along ethnic and religious lines just as they are in Iraq today. >Also, several >thousand years of history doesn’t figure in to that statement either?

Of course they do –we didn’t create Pandora’s Box, we were just stupid enough to open it when we had no means of closing it back up! >Keep on blaming the U.S. We are the only bad guys on the planet.

No, we’re good guys with very bad national leaders who are both incompetent and dishonest. >When a rag head blows you up, remember you are the bad guy.

No Iraqi has ever attacked America — Americans have to go over there to get attacked.   Get this please: Iraq had nothing whatsoever to with the events of 9/11/01 and the current occupation has made the world more terrorist- friendly than ever. >Lefty bullshit at it’s worst!

So saith righty ignorance of the facts. >And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down,

Yeah, the number of attacks is down for November, but the number of victims, both American and Iraqi, continues to climb.  Bottom line: fewer, bigger, more effective insurgent attacks. >There >are improvements in most of the country.

Except that service levels are still *way* below what was provided under the Saddam Hussein regime and public safely is worse than at any other time in the history of Iraq.  We haven’t done diddley except make a few crooked corporations very rich. >Finally more Iraqi’s are informing >on terrorists & stepping up to help with their independence.

Says who?  Could be, I don’t know myself and would be interested to read your source. >Did you believe >the sorry bunch that had the power & privilege for 40 years would jus roll >over?

No, but apparently the Idiot-In-Chief in the White House did! >But lefties only listen to their spin.

*Whose* "spin" are "lefties" supposedly listening to?  Thanks in advance for clueing me in! >Yes there will probably be a civil war of some kind.

There already is — and our people are in the crossfire!  What the hell does that accomplish? >We had one too.

Yup, 70+ years down the pike. >I guess >England was responsible for that one? Using lefty logic.

Nope, the English and their Hessian mercenaries were long gone — which is what we and our mercenaries should be, from Iraq! >We sure do not want anyone having to take responsibility for their own >actions.

If you really believe that, why are our people taking fire for people how should be "taking responsiblity for their own actions?"   Don’t the invasion and occupation of Iraq comprise *our* "own actions" or did the people of Iraq mail us an engraved invitation? >You appeasers would have been content to let sadam keep us tied up forever, >while he corrupted all the so called allies we have.

Sure beats 2,000+ Americans killed and tens of thousands maimed, resulting a long, bloody civil war — we had that toothless old blowhard in a box, no-fly zones north and south, his country crawling with arms inspectors, at a cost that was a tiny fraction of the price we’re pay now, and for *what*? >The terrorist element will eventually die off.

Not as long as we’re there to make them look like heros and martyrs trying to drive out the "Christian Crusaders!" >But only when everyone works to stop them.

Bullseye — let’s get the hell out of Dodge and see if the Iraqis can do their own nation building.  As long as we’re there to do all the heavy lifting, why shouldn’t they just let Uncle Sam do it?   From the p.o.v. of Middle East culture, why should they risk their neck any more than they have to when there are lots of American there willing to fight and die? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Texas Blue > General William Odom, former head of the > National Security Agency, believes the only > way to stabilize the Middle East is to leave > Iraq now. The retired general points out > that we are alienating our allies and we > need a coalition to help us stabilize the > region. The idea that things will be worse > when we leave misperceives that we are > causing those very things today — we have > created civil war in the region. The longer > we stay, the worse the situation will > become. Staying in and making matters worse, > will embolden the terrorists even more — we > don’t have a choice but to leave. > _____ > CNN Video here: > http://dailydissent.org/video/cnnodom120205a.wmv >       Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >             >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< > -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

       Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

> "WE" created a civil war in the region?

Yes. > And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down

But casualties are way up, meaning that the insurgents are becoming more efficient. > Yes there will probably be a civil war of some kind.

It’s already happening. > We had one too.

It wasn’t started by someone else. > The terrorist element will eventually die off.

Sure. Just like the Viet Cong "died off".

Response:

>"WE" created a civil war in the region? > No, we just removed the > only effective constraint > on the existing ethnic and > religious rivalries in what > is essentially an > artificial country created > by our predecessors, the > late and unlamented British > Empire!

All Shite’s disagree with you! >I guess leaving sadam in power would have prevented that. > Yup — at least under Saddam > the people only had him and > his cronies to fear, now > there’s their own local > neighbors to worry about.

All Shite’s disagree with you! > The American occupation and > the insurgency it incited > have made the country a much > more dangerous place to be > than it ever was under the > old regime.

Only in the places were the Suni’s "used" to rule! 3 provinces. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - A similar thing > happen in the Balkans when > Tito died — while he had an > iron fist looming over > everyone, they lived ] > together in peace and even > intermarried and hosted the > Olympics.  The moment their > (admittedly cruel and > brutal) dictator was gone, > they were at each other’s > throats along ethnic and > religious lines just as they > are in Iraq today.

Yes, that’s why we "still" have troops in the area. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Also, several >thousand years of history doesn’t figure in to that statement either? > Of course they do –we > didn’t create Pandora’s Box, > we were just stupid enough > to open it when we had no > means of closing it back up! >Keep on blaming the U.S. We are the only bad guys on the planet. > No, we’re good guys with > very bad national leaders > who are both incompetent and > dishonest.

You "are" including ‘ALL" so called leaders, right? I sure haven’t seen any "leaders" since I’ve been alive. 1953 to date. >When a rag head blows you up, remember you are the bad guy. > No Iraqi has ever attacked > America — Americans have to > go over there to get attacked. > Get this please: Iraq had > nothing whatsoever to with the > events of 9/11/01 and the > current occupation has made > the world more terrorist- > friendly than ever.

Should have given the definition of a raghead. Has nothing to do with nationality, Muslim extremeist of the worst kind. Life ambition to kill infidels. Without oil, these people would all be dead. They produce no worth. Name "ANY" worthwhile contribution from the middle east for the betterment of the planet in the last 100 years. Medical, invention, etc. I know Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. I posted a while back, all the terrorist actions by date, starting long before this administration came in to office. The list shows the reason why, "something" had to be done. Sadam got to be it. Bad things are happening for sure. But they will get better or worse. Up to Iraqi’s now. Exactly where in this world are there more terrorist friendly countries???? Iraq is it. The news report on ABC, a few days ago, clearly showed, that except in "3" provinces, things were getting better. Even Iran & Sryia are keeping quiet. The appeasment of these little 2 bit countries, because of oil, caused all this. When they see we are through playing nice, they back down. Look at Lybia, for 1. As long as liberals sat & whined and tryed to make nice, these ragheads flourished. Now they are being called out & eliminated. They can’t use the banking system, like before & all eyes are watching. They have become "bad for business". Their time is limited. So we can expect some death throws. >Lefty bullshit at it’s worst! > So saith righty ignorance of > the facts. >And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down, > Yeah, the number of attacks > is down for November, but > the number of victims, both > American and Iraqi, continues > to climb.  Bottom line: > fewer, bigger, more effective > insurgent attacks.

Down for November, they’ll be down for Dec. & so on & so on. It’s called progress. Yes the attacks have been bigger, but by far fewer. They are running out of "stupid" people to do suicide bombings. Notice none of the so called terrorist leaders ever so the suicide bombings? And I posted today, fewer soldiers have been killed in Iraq, than citizens in Washington D.C. in the last 3 years. Granted any in either place is bad, but it’s nowhere in the same ballpark as Korea or Vietnam, for the same number of years. Sucks, but just what if this all pays off? >There >are improvements in most of the country. > Except that service levels > are still *way* below what > was provided under the > Saddam Hussein regime and > public safely is worse > than at any other time in > the history of Iraq.  We > haven’t done diddley > except make a few crooked > corporations very rich.

I guess you missed the part about all the new schools, rebuilding business, houses, etc. I think since you & the rest of the other 5 or so lefties in this group, think Sadam was such a good provider, you should live under those conditions yourselves for awhile. I’ve seen the way people have had to live under  tyrants & communists. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. And yes, hopefully all the crooks will be brought to justice. From all nationalities. >Finally more Iraqi’s are informing >on terrorists & stepping up to help with their independence. > Says who?  Could be, I > don’t know myself and > would be interested to > read your source.

ABC news  <<< evening news. >Did you believe >the sorry bunch that had the power & privilege for 40 years would just >roll >over? > No, but apparently the > Idiot-In-Chief in the > White House did!

That’s why he has said over & over, this would be hard & would take time to over come the legacy of 40 years of Sadams rule. Listen! >But lefties only listen to their spin. > *Whose* "spin" are > "lefties" supposedly > listening to?  Thanks > in advance for clueing > me in!

I’m not sure where any of you get your info. Lefties R Us, maybe? You all<<all in this group anyway, wouldn’t want pixie to have a useless point to argue, will flood this group with all the bad things the "conservatives" have done, yet refuse to admit to anything your liberal leadership has done. You all refuse to read any research. When you do, you pick 1 small item out of volumes, to latch on to. Like I said before, WHERE WERE ALL OF YOU WHEN THAT LYING, ADULTER, RAPIST, TRATIOR, bill clinton & his pack of thieves & traitors were in But no all we get is , why do you bring all that back up. Clinton was by far more of a cause of this countries problems, than Bush will ever be. And you can lie all you want to about how he saved the budget, yadda  yadda yadda, but I posted the truth about all that. Democrats lie as much or more than Republicans. Both have turned in to useless traitors. But I’ll side with whomever stands up & fights, instead of sitting on the sidelines yapping like a bunch of rabid chiuauas. >Yes there will probably be a civil war of some kind. > There already is — and > our people are in the > crossfire!  What the hell > does that accomplish?

Eventually, a group of people that want to live a good & peaceful life. >We had one too. > Yup, 70+ years down the > pike.

Well it had to start somewhere. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I guess >England was responsible for that one? Using lefty logic. > Nope, the English and their > Hessian mercenaries were > long gone — which is what > we and our mercenaries > should be, from Iraq! >We sure do not want anyone having to take responsibility for their own >actions. > If you really believe that, > why are our people taking > fire for people how should > be "taking responsiblity > for their own actions?" > Don’t the invasion and > occupation of Iraq comprise > *our* "own actions" or did > the people of Iraq mail us > an engraved invitation?

They were not in a condition where they could do anything about their situation. Yes many did call for us to come in. I guess you forgot all those press conferences? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You appeasers would have been content to let sadam keep us tied up >forever, >while he corrupted all the so called allies we have. > Sure beats 2,000+ Americans > killed and tens of thousands > maimed, resulting a long, > bloody civil war — we had > that toothless old blowhard > in a box, no-fly zones north > and south, his country > crawling with arms inspectors, > at a cost that was a tiny > fraction of the price we’re > pay now, and for *what*?

You do realize what we had to pay to keep all that going, right? The arms inspectors were getting jerked around just like the U.N. Not counting all the corruption of the U.N. members. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The terrorist element will eventually die off. > Not as long as we’re there to > make them look like heros and > martyrs trying to

… read more »

Response:

> "WE" created a civil war in the region? > Yes.

Wrong > And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down > But casualties are way up, meaning that the insurgents are becoming more > efficient.

Nope, just means they are using up what they have left. > Yes there will probably be a civil war of some kind. > It’s already happening. > We had one too. > It wasn’t started by someone else.

We didn’t start a civil war, you wouldn’t research it anyway, but maybe you have heard they have been fighting for thousands of years? > The terrorist element will eventually die off. > Sure. Just like the Viet Cong "died off".

You don’t know much about anything do you. After the Tet Offensive, the Viet Cong were basically never a viable fighting force again. Their numbers were decimated. Of course the communist North Vietnamese planned that. The Viet Cong were actually patriots. Didn’t agree with them in any way shape or form, but they did the fighting. They were used, just like most warriors. The so called terrorists are getting used up much faster. It will calm down soon enough. Not soon enough for me, though.

Response:

> All Shite’s disagree with you!

You a Shi-ite Muslim?

Response:

> >> "WE" created a civil war in the region? > Yes. > Wrong

Right. >> And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down > But casualties are way up, meaning that the insurgents are becoming more > efficient. > Nope, just means they are using up what they have left.

Wrong again. It means they’re learning. >> Yes there will probably be a civil war of some kind. > It’s already happening. >> We had one too. > It wasn’t started by someone else. > We didn’t start a civil war

We didn’t start that whole North Vs South thing? What kind of idiot are you? >> The terrorist element will eventually die off. > Sure. Just like the Viet Cong "died off". > You don’t know much about anything do you.

More than you. > After the Tet Offensive, the Viet Cong were > basically never a viable fighting force again.

Funny that they won then, isn’t it?

Response:

Re: Reagan’s NSA Director sez….. Political shit. Guitars, Amps, Gear, Music, Musicians or fuck off ya phuctarded piss clam! Ya hairy taco! Ya stench trench!

Response:

political taco trench piss clammmage Amps! Guitars! Gear! Music!

Response:

>Re: Reagan’s NSA Director sez….. >Political shit. >Guitars, Amps, Gear, Music, Musicians or fuck off ya phuctarded piss >clam! Ya hairy taco! Ya stench trench!

Hey Mulay, blow it out your ass.  If we elected king of the phuctards you’d be it.  We might even give you wheatonjohn as queen for a day. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas, Doktor Freud,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, pseudobacker, Max Floater and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Lars Overshank (aka ‘The Cowardly Lion’) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>"WE" created a civil war in the region? > No, we just removed the > only effective constraint > on the existing ethnic and > religious rivalries in what > is essentially an > artificial country created > by our predecessors, the > late and unlamented British > Empire! >All Shite’s disagree with you!

C’mon, neither one of us would know a Shiite if we ran into one at the 7-11.  How many Shiites have you spoken to that you can make a statement about "All Shites(sic)?"   Maybe you meant "All Shits" in which case you might very well be right (of center, naturally). >>I guess leaving sadam in power would have prevented that. > Yup — at least under Saddam > the people only had him and > his cronies to fear, now > there’s their own local > neighbors to worry about. >All Shite’s disagree with you!

See above — you’re talking through your Stetson, Texas! > The American occupation and > the insurgency it incited > have made the country a much > more dangerous place to be > than it ever was under the > old regime. >Only in the places were the Suni’s "used" to rule! >3 provinces.

You think it’s safer now in Basra, where the Brits had to break their guys out jail?  I think not, son. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A similar thing > happen in the Balkans when > Tito died — while he had an > iron fist looming over > everyone, they lived ] > together in peace and even > intermarried and hosted the > Olympics.  The moment their > (admittedly cruel and > brutal) dictator was gone, > they were at each other’s > throats along ethnic and > religious lines just as they > are in Iraq today. >Yes, that’s why we "still" have troops in the area.

Yet somehow, our casualties were in the single digits.   Know why?  Because we were welcome there, that’s why! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Also, several >>thousand years of history doesn’t figure in to that statement either? > Of course they do –we > didn’t create Pandora’s Box, > we were just stupid enough > to open it when we had no > means of closing it back up! >>Keep on blaming the U.S. We are the only bad guys on the planet. > No, we’re good guys with > very bad national leaders > who are both incompetent and > dishonest. >You "are" including ‘ALL" so called leaders, right?

Nope, but unfortunately it includes the one with the desk where the buck stops. >I sure haven’t seen any "leaders" since I’ve been alive. 1953 to date.

You didn’t like Ronny Ray-Gun?  Too liberal for you, perhaps?   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>When a rag head blows you up, remember you are the bad guy. > No Iraqi has ever attacked > America — Americans have to > go over there to get attacked. > Get this please: Iraq had > nothing whatsoever to with the > events of 9/11/01 and the > current occupation has made > the world more terrorist- > friendly than ever. >Should have given the definition of a raghead. >Has nothing to do with nationality, Muslim extremeist of the worst kind.

Answer one question — the people who attacked us were mostly Saudis.  Why invade Iraq when the immediate threat to our country originated elsewhere? >Life ambition to kill infidels.

Killers willing to die comprise a tiny minority, even in the most backward, medieval Muslim societies.   The tens of thousands of Iraqis who have died since we invaded ain’t them. >Without oil, these people would all be dead.

….and your point is? >They produce no worth.

…and for the most part they live lives commensurate with their personal productivity. Once again, this has nothing to do with Iraq, which is (or at least *was*, until we got in there) the most highly- educated and westernized society in the middle east other than Israel (which is essentially a transplanted central European country). >Name "ANY" worthwhile contribution from the middle >east for the betterment of the planet in the last 100 years. >Medical, invention, etc.

So, they don’t meet your standards for productivity and innovation — that sounds like the Nazis talking about Czechs, Poles, and Russians!  Your point is? >I know Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

Well, good, at least you’re conscious, after a fashion.         >I posted a while back, all the terrorist actions by date, starting long >before this administration came in to office.

I’m getting tired waiting for your point, but I’ll persevere! >The list shows the reason why, "something" had to be done.

As in "Do something — anything?"  We should have had a national day of karaoke, it would have done just as much good as invading Iraq and a lot less harm! >Sadam got to be it.

Saddam is still alive, but tens of thousands of Iraqi innocents aren’t, and more are dying pretty much every day. >Bad things are happening for sure.

Well, like DUH!!! >But they will get better or worse.

A safe bet — any more wisdom up your sleeve? >Up to Iraqi’s now.

The Iraqi government, such as it is, asked us to set a withdrawal timetable within the last week or so.  Dumber’nyuh won’t do that.  Is it their country or his, Texas? >Exactly where in this world are there more terrorist friendly countries????

Iraq wasn’t particularly "terrorist-friendly" until we arrived — now it’s an international training ground that makes Taliban- run Afghanistan look like a pacifist summer camp.   About the only relation between Saddam Hussein and terrorists of any kind was that he cut some checks to the families of dead Palestinian homicide bombers, just like any number of rich Saudis and Kuwaitis do on an ongoing basis — the Israelis had more of a gripe with that the we do, and they sure as hell weren’t stupid enough to start a war over it! >Iraq is it.

If "it" means FUBAR, you’re right! >The news report on ABC, a few days ago, clearly showed, that except in "3" >provinces, things were getting better.

In that case, those "3" provinces must be getting a whole lot worse, because the casualty figures keep climbing and climbing.  You forgot to mention that one of the "3" includes the city of Baghdad. >Even Iran & Sryia are keeping quiet.

Have you ever heard the old military adage "Never interrupt your adversary when he’s in the process of making a mistake?"   Invading and occupying Iraq are bleeding the American military and economy dry, and since the Shiites stand to gain the most regardless of whether we stay or go, why should the region’s two Shiite-majority countries interrupt us?  Syria and Iran come up winners without firing a shot as long as we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot! >The appeasment of these little 2 bit countries, because of oil, caused all >this. When they see we are through playing nice, they back down.

See above.  They’re behaving because we’re in the process of screwing up, not because they fear us.  A U.S. threat has taken on the tone of "Stop misbehaving, or will screw up ourselves in *your* country next!"  Even that has no credibility, since we don’t even have enough boots on the ground in Iraq, let alone enough to deal with anything else! >Look at Lybia, for 1.

Ghaddaffi is an opportunist, he saw the chance to make his lucrative business with the Europeans a litte less troublesome and he took it. >As long as liberals sat & whined and tryed to make nice, these ragheads >flourished. Now they are being called out & eliminated.

Horseshit, they’re being tolerated and even supported as long as they play ball by U.S. rules.  Mushareff, Mubarek, the royals in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait — all America’s great allies, all dictator-run hotbeds for turning "ragheads" into terrorists. >They can’t use the >banking system, like before & all eyes are watching. They have become "bad >for business". >Their time is limited. So we can expect some death throws.

Good lord, Texas, are you channeling Mary Poppins or Dick Cheney?  If Mushareff or Mubarek are in their "death throws(sic)," who do you think is coming to power in those countries?   If you said "Islamicist extremists" you’d be damned right, because there’s certainly no constituency for western- style secular government in any of those places! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Lefty bullshit at it’s worst! > So saith righty ignorance of > the facts. >>And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down, > Yeah, the number of attacks > is down for November, but > the number of victims, both > American and Iraqi, continues > to climb.  Bottom line: > fewer, bigger, more effective > insurgent attacks. >Down for November, they’ll be down for Dec. & so on & so on. It’s called >progress.

We’ll see.  I’m hearing loud echos of the ‘Nam years myself — "Vietnamization" my ass! >Yes the attacks have been bigger, but by far fewer. They are running out of >"stupid" people to do suicide bombings.

No, they’re not — and by far the most common attacks are not suicidal, they’re roadside bombs, most recently followed by small arms fire.   If nothing else, the insurgents are flexible — they’ll take what our tactics give them, and we can’t take away very much. >Notice none of the so called >terrorist leaders ever so the suicide bombings?

Of course — the "leaders" aren’t stupid people, they *use* stupid people! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->And I

… read more »

Response:

> Re: Reagan’s NSA Director sez….. > Political shit. > Guitars, Amps, Gear, Music, Musicians or fuck off ya phuctarded piss > clam! Ya hairy taco! Ya stench trench!

Observe this latest incarnation of Halbesel, who has earned lifetime residency in the killfiles of usenet subscribers everywhere, suddenly becoming seem-holy by following a regimen of on-topic posts, until the opportunity presents itself to subject off-topic, but sane, posters to the type of abuse he misses himself receiving.  At such times he reverts to scatological grammar school vulgarity, previously his stock in trade. Obviously his new leaf is more burden than he can bear. Dr. Freud D.M.Psc.Abn.

Response:

(snip) > Bullseye — let’s get the hell > out of Dodge

.. as in, ‘cut and run’…  figures that would be your solution. >… and see if the > Iraqis can do their own nation > building.  

Hey, we left the Afghanis to try it on their own… have you a clue as to what happened then…?? > As long as we’re > there to do all the heavy > lifting, why shouldn’t they > just let Uncle Sam do it?   > From the p.o.v. of Middle East > culture,

Like, you know the "culture" of the Middle East..??? How so..??? > why should they risk > their neck any more than they > have to when there are lots of > American there willing to > fight and die?

You insult the Iraqis…  they are risking their necks every day.. and dying a-plenty.  They are fighting as well… against the insurgency. After 3 yrs there is no civil war… a feat of no small amount. You’re an arm-chair political/military analyst of zero intelect and insight. Are you in Iraq asking folks if they want to "risk their neck" any more than they have to ..??? We know the answer…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Texas Blue >>General William Odom, former head of the >>National Security Agency, believes the only >>way to stabilize the Middle East is to leave >>Iraq now. The retired general points out >>that we are alienating our allies and we >>need a coalition to help us stabilize the >>region. The idea that things will be worse >>when we leave misperceives that we are >>causing those very things today — we have >>created civil war in the region. The longer >>we stay, the worse the situation will >>become. Staying in and making matters worse, >>will embolden the terrorists even more — we >>don’t have a choice but to leave. >>_____ >>CNN Video here: >>http://dailydissent.org/video/cnnodom120205a.wmv >>      Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >>            >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< >>-=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=- >        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< > -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > (snip) > Bullseye — let’s get the hell > out of Dodge > .. as in, ‘cut and run’…  figures that would be your solution. >… and see if the > Iraqis can do their own nation > building. > Hey, we left the Afghanis to try it on their own… have you a clue as > to what happened then…?? > As long as we’re > there to do all the heavy > lifting, why shouldn’t they > just let Uncle Sam do it? > From the p.o.v. of Middle East > culture, > Like, you know the "culture" of the Middle East..??? > How so..??? > why should they risk > their neck any more than they > have to when there are lots of > American there willing to > fight and die? > You insult the Iraqis…  they are risking their necks every day.. and > dying a-plenty.  They are fighting as well… against the insurgency. > After 3 yrs there is no civil war… a feat of no small amount. > You’re an arm-chair political/military analyst of zero intelect and > insight. Are you in Iraq asking folks if they want to "risk their > neck" any more than they have to ..??? > We know the answer….

To such intellects as the Fire Station House Mother the pullout from Vietnam and the subsequent bloodbath in Cambodia under the Rote Khmer are either completely unrelated events or a political success story.  It seems unclear even to them which is the case, but they seem determined to repeat it in any case. Dr. Fr. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Texas Blue >>>General William Odom, former head of the >>>National Security Agency, believes the only >>>way to stabilize the Middle East is to leave >>>Iraq now. The retired general points out >>>that we are alienating our allies and we >>>need a coalition to help us stabilize the >>>region. The idea that things will be worse >>>when we leave misperceives that we are >>>causing those very things today — we have >>>created civil war in the region. The longer >>>we stay, the worse the situation will >>>become. Staying in and making matters worse, >>>will embolden the terrorists even more — we >>>don’t have a choice but to leave. >>>_____ >>>CNN Video here: >>>http://dailydissent.org/video/cnnodom120205a.wmv >>>      Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >>>            >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< >>>-=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=- >        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< > -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>"WE" created a civil war in the region? >> No, we just removed the >> only effective constraint >> on the existing ethnic and >> religious rivalries in what >> is essentially an >> artificial country created >> by our predecessors, the >> late and unlamented British >> Empire! >All Shite’s disagree with you! > C’mon, neither one of us > would know a Shiite if > we ran into one at the > 7-11.  How many Shiites > have you spoken to that > you can make a statement > about "All Shites(sic)?" > Maybe you meant "All > Shits" in which case you > might very well be right > (of center, naturally).

Exactly! Also, I have known Suni & Shiite. Both families left their country. 1 because of the Iran/Iraq war, 1 because of sadam. Both were nice families. We even took one of the fathers deer & turkey hunting. Shiite’s were treated brutally. Suni’s not much better. I could go on about this, but I want to play my guitars today. I’ve wasted enough time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>I guess leaving sadam in power would have prevented that. >> Yup — at least under Saddam >> the people only had him and >> his cronies to fear, now >> there’s their own local >> neighbors to worry about. >All Shite’s disagree with you! > See above — you’re talking > through your Stetson, > Texas!

Yep, got a Stetson 3x beaver – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> The American occupation and >> the insurgency it incited >> have made the country a much >> more dangerous place to be >> than it ever was under the >> old regime. >Only in the places were the Suni’s "used" to rule! >3 provinces. > You think it’s safer now > in Basra, where the > Brits had to break their > guys out jail?  I think > not, son. > A similar thing >> happen in the Balkans when >> Tito died — while he had an >> iron fist looming over >> everyone, they lived ] >> together in peace and even >> intermarried and hosted the >> Olympics.  The moment their >> (admittedly cruel and >> brutal) dictator was gone, >> they were at each other’s >> throats along ethnic and >> religious lines just as they >> are in Iraq today. >Yes, that’s why we "still" have troops in the area. > Yet somehow, our casualties > were in the single digits. > Know why?  Because we were > welcome there, that’s why! >>>Also, several >>>thousand years of history doesn’t figure in to that statement either? >> Of course they do –we >> didn’t create Pandora’s Box, >> we were just stupid enough >> to open it when we had no >> means of closing it back up! >>>Keep on blaming the U.S. We are the only bad guys on the planet. >> No, we’re good guys with >> very bad national leaders >> who are both incompetent and >> dishonest. >You "are" including ‘ALL" so called leaders, right? > Nope, but unfortunately it > includes the one with the > desk where the buck stops. >I sure haven’t seen any "leaders" since I’ve been alive. 1953 to date. > You didn’t like Ronny > Ray-Gun?  Too liberal for > you, perhaps?

Regan was as phony as they come. He was under the control of the bankers. Becuase of his association with communist groups. He told off on them in the Senate hearings & became one of their boys. Remember about the cocaine problems?  Just say No, while Nancy’s CIA flys it in low. But with his trillion $ hot check, he got some things started. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>When a rag head blows you up, remember you are the bad guy. >> No Iraqi has ever attacked >> America — Americans have to >> go over there to get attacked. >> Get this please: Iraq had >> nothing whatsoever to with the >> events of 9/11/01 and the >> current occupation has made >> the world more terrorist- >> friendly than ever. >Should have given the definition of a raghead. >Has nothing to do with nationality, Muslim extremeist of the worst kind. > Answer one question — the > people who attacked us were > mostly Saudis.  Why invade > Iraq when the immediate > threat to our country > originated elsewhere? >Life ambition to kill infidels. > Killers willing to die > comprise a tiny minority, > even in the most backward, > medieval Muslim societies. > The tens of thousands of > Iraqis who have died since > we invaded ain’t them. >Without oil, these people would all be dead. > ….and your point is? >They produce no worth. > …and for the most part > they live lives > commensurate with their > personal productivity. > Once again, this has nothing > to do with Iraq, which is (or > at least *was*, until we got > in there) the most highly- > educated and westernized > society in the middle east > other than Israel (which is > essentially a transplanted > central European country). >Name "ANY" worthwhile contribution from the middle >east for the betterment of the planet in the last 100 years. >Medical, invention, etc. > So, they don’t meet your > standards for productivity > and innovation — that > sounds like the Nazis > talking about Czechs, Poles, > and Russians!  Your point > is?

Has nothing to do with any of that. Someone either "has" to bring them in to the future, or we will be killing them forever. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I know Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. > Well, good, at least you’re > conscious, after a fashion. > >I posted a while back, all the terrorist actions by date, starting long >before this administration came in to office. > I’m getting tired waiting > for your point, but I’ll > persevere! >The list shows the reason why, "something" had to be done. > As in "Do something — > anything?"  We should have > had a national day of > karaoke, it would have done > just as much good as > invading Iraq and a lot > less harm! >Sadam got to be it. > Saddam is still alive, but > tens of thousands of Iraqi > innocents aren’t, and more > are dying pretty much every > day. >Bad things are happening for sure. > Well, like DUH!!! >But they will get better or worse. > A safe bet — any more > wisdom up your sleeve? >Up to Iraqi’s now. > The Iraqi government, such > as it is, asked us to set > a withdrawal timetable > within the last week or > so.  Dumber’nyuh won’t do > that.  Is it their country > or his, Texas?

Their’s unless they can’t handle it. But they have to help to get started. They have never had to be responsible for themselves. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Exactly where in this world are there more terrorist friendly >countries???? > Iraq wasn’t particularly > "terrorist-friendly" until > we arrived — now it’s an > international training > ground that makes Taliban- > run Afghanistan look like > a pacifist summer camp. > About the only relation > between Saddam Hussein and > terrorists of any kind was > that he cut some checks to > the families of dead > Palestinian homicide > bombers, just like any > number of rich Saudis and > Kuwaitis do on an ongoing > basis — the Israelis had > more of a gripe with that > the we do, and they sure > as hell weren’t stupid > enough to start a war over > it! >Iraq is it. > If "it" means FUBAR, you’re > right! >The news report on ABC, a few days ago, clearly showed, that except in "3" >provinces, things were getting better. > In that case, those "3" > provinces must be getting a > whole lot worse, because > the casualty figures keep > climbing and climbing.  You > forgot to mention that one > of the "3" includes the > city of Baghdad. >Even Iran & Sryia are keeping quiet. > Have you ever heard the old > military adage "Never interrupt > your adversary when he’s in the > process of making a mistake?" > Invading and occupying Iraq are > bleeding the American military > and economy dry, and since the > Shiites stand to gain the most > regardless of whether we stay > or go, why should the region’s > two Shiite-majority countries > interrupt us?  Syria and Iran > come up winners without firing > a shot as long as we continue > to shoot ourselves in the foot!

Syria & Iran both know they can be next, with litte or no provacation. We haven’t shot ourselves in the foot. Major mistakes were made in planning for the "peace". It’ll work out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The appeasment of these little 2 bit countries, because of oil, caused all >this. When they see we are through playing nice, they back down. > See above.  They’re behaving > because we’re in the process > of screwing up, not because > they fear us.  A U.S. threat > has taken on the tone of "Stop > misbehaving, or will screw up > ourselves in *your* country > next!"  Even that has no > credibility, since we don’t > even have enough boots on the > ground in Iraq, let alone > enough to deal with anything > else! >Look at Lybia, for 1. > Ghaddaffi is an opportunist, > he saw the chance to make > his lucrative business with > the Europeans a litte less > troublesome and he took it.

Yes exactly, see our policy worked. Either get blown up or behave & live the … read more »

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> "WE" created a civil war in the region? > > Yes. > Wrong > Right. > >> And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down > > But casualties are way up, meaning that the insurgents are becoming > > more > > efficient. > Nope, just means they are using up what they have left. > Wrong again. It means they’re learning. > >> Yes there will probably be a civil war of some kind. > > It’s already happening. > >> We had one too. > > It wasn’t started by someone else. > We didn’t start a civil war > We didn’t start that whole North Vs South thing? What kind of idiot are > you? > >> The terrorist element will eventually die off. > > Sure. Just like the Viet Cong "died off". > You don’t know much about anything do you. > More than you. > After the Tet Offensive, the Viet Cong were > basically never a viable fighting force again. > Funny that they won then, isn’t it?

Viet Cong did not win the Tet Offensive. The North Vietnamese took over when we were forced to leave.<<< by politicians. Have a Happy Holiday Season Texas Blue

Response:

> All Shite’s disagree with you! > You a Shi-ite Muslim?

I type shite. Meant exactly like it is spelled. Look at my other post about my knowledge of shiite & suni. Have a great Holiday Season Texas Blue

Response:

> >> After the Tet Offensive, the Viet Cong were >> basically never a viable fighting force again. > Funny that they won then, isn’t it? > Viet Cong did not win the Tet Offensive.

So why is Hanoi the capital of Vietnam and Saigon now called Ho Che Minh City? > The North Vietnamese took over when we were forced to leave.

That’s a laughable premise.

Response:

> I have been offered jobs in Afghanistan & Iraq. > Extremely well paying jobs.

Then go!

Response:

> my knowledge of shiite & suni

Included in your "knowledge" should be the idea that Shi-ite and Sunni are capitalized. But what do you know?

Response:

>(snip) > Bullseye — let’s get the hell > out of Dodge >.. as in, ‘cut and run’…  figures that would be your solution.

When there’s nothing to be accomplished — and the *heavy* consensus is that there isn’t — only an idiot sticks around to bleed and die. >… and see if the > Iraqis can do their own nation > building.   >Hey, we left the Afghanis to try it on their own… have you a clue as >to what happened then…??

I thought Afghanistan was a huge success, at least that’s what the White House calls it.  Do you disagree? > As long as we’re > there to do all the heavy > lifting, why shouldn’t they > just let Uncle Sam do it?   > From the p.o.v. of Middle East > culture, >Like, you know the "culture" of the Middle East..??? >How so..???

Read the history of the Crusades — Arab men still discuss Saladin like he only recently defeated the Christians! > why should they risk > their neck any more than they > have to when there are lots of > American there willing to > fight and die? >You insult the Iraqis…  they are risking their necks every day.. and >dying a-plenty.  

That’s for sure, but mostly just trying to get through the day, not fighting much unless it’s each other. >They are fighting as well… against the insurgency.

ROTFLMAO — they are just as much, if not more, for the insurgency as they are for their government.  I’ve heard testimony that a two- digit percentage of the so- called Iraq military are actually insurgents showing up for a paycheck!  The bottom line is that we cannot identify who the enemy is in a place where virtually everyone wants us gone.  As long as we are there, the insurgents can pretend they heroes of the people and gain more and more recruits and support! >After 3 yrs there is no civil war… a feat of no small amount.

You’re not paying attention — the insurgency *is* essentially a civil war, the only difference is that there’s no single united insurgent leadership.  The main dynamic is Sunnis vs. Shiites, in addition to pretty much everyone wanting the U.S. troops gone. >You’re an arm-chair political/military analyst of zero intelect and >insight. Are you in Iraq asking folks if they want to "risk their >neck" any more than they have to ..???

I can read and so can you.   You simply choose not to and would rather dream of a situation that doesn’t exist. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Texas Blue >>>General William Odom, former head of the >>>National Security Agency, believes the only >>>way to stabilize the Middle East is to leave >>>Iraq now. The retired general points out >>>that we are alienating our allies and we >>>need a coalition to help us stabilize the >>>region. The idea that things will be worse >>>when we leave misperceives that we are >>>causing those very things today — we have >>>created civil war in the region. The longer >>>we stay, the worse the situation will >>>become. Staying in and making matters worse, >>>will embolden the terrorists even more — we >>>don’t have a choice but to leave. >>>_____ >>>CNN Video here: >>>http://dailydissent.org/video/cnnodom120205a.wmv >>>      Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >>>            >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< >>>-=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=- >        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< > -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

       Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->(snip) >>Bullseye — let’s get the hell >>out of Dodge >.. as in, ‘cut and run’…  figures that would be your solution. > When there’s nothing to be > accomplished — and the > *heavy* consensus is that > there isn’t — only an > idiot sticks around to > bleed and die.

No. Take George Washington for example….  maybe you should read a little of history to get a perspective on what "nothing to be accomplished" might really mean. >>… and see if the >>Iraqis can do their own nation >>building.   >Hey, we left the Afghanis to try it on their own… have you a clue as >to what happened then…?? > I thought Afghanistan was > a huge success, at least > that’s what the White > House calls it.  Do you > disagree?

You’re and idiot… well, maybe you’re just young… which often makes people *appear* idiotic.  There was an "Afghaniston" before you were born.  Look it up. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>As long as we’re >>there to do all the heavy >>lifting, why shouldn’t they >>just let Uncle Sam do it?   >>From the p.o.v. of Middle East >>culture, >Like, you know the "culture" of the Middle East..??? >How so..??? > Read the history of the > Crusades — Arab men > still discuss Saladin > like he only recently > defeated the Christians!

Sheesh…! ! ! >>why should they risk >>their neck any more than they >>have to when there are lots of >>American there willing to >>fight and die? >You insult the Iraqis…  they are risking their necks every day.. and >dying a-plenty.   > That’s for sure, but mostly > just trying to get through > the day, not fighting much > unless it’s each other.

Again… you’re totally uninformed.  Sorry. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->They are fighting as well… against the insurgency. > ROTFLMAO — they are just > as much, if not more, for > the insurgency as they are > for their government.  I’ve > heard testimony that a two- > digit percentage of the so- > called Iraq military are > actually insurgents showing > up for a paycheck!  The > bottom line is that we > cannot identify who the > enemy is in a place where > virtually everyone wants us > gone.  As long as we are > there, the insurgents can > pretend they heroes of the > people and gain more and > more recruits and support!

You’re dreaming. Sorry. >After 3 yrs there is no civil war… a feat of no small amount. > You’re not paying attention > — the insurgency *is* > essentially a civil war,

"Essentially"..???  Look up the word dude.. > the only difference is that > there’s no single united > insurgent leadership.  

You need some history classes. > The  main dynamic is Sunnis vs. > Shiites, in addition to > pretty much everyone > wanting the U.S. troops > gone.

Pretty much everyone…???  Wow, aren’t you the Iraqi public opinion expert..! ! ! ! ! >You’re an arm-chair political/military analyst of zero intelect and >insight. Are you in Iraq asking folks if they want to "risk their >neck" any more than they have to ..??? > I can read and so can you.   > You simply choose not to > and would rather dream of > a situation that doesn’t > exist.

Well read then.  You’ve so much to learn. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>Texas Blue >>>>General William Odom, former head of the >>>>National Security Agency, believes the only >>>>way to stabilize the Middle East is to leave >>>>Iraq now. The retired general points out >>>>that we are alienating our allies and we >>>>need a coalition to help us stabilize the >>>>region. The idea that things will be worse >>>>when we leave misperceives that we are >>>>causing those very things today — we have >>>>created civil war in the region. The longer >>>>we stay, the worse the situation will >>>>become. Staying in and making matters worse, >>>>will embolden the terrorists even more — we >>>>don’t have a choice but to leave. >>>>_____ >>>>CNN Video here: >>>>http://dailydissent.org/video/cnnodom120205a.wmv >>>>     Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >>>>           >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< >>>>-=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=- >>       Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >>             >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< >>-=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=- >        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< > -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> After the Tet Offensive, the Viet Cong were > >> basically never a viable fighting force again. > > Funny that they won then, isn’t it? > Viet Cong did not win the Tet Offensive. > So why is Hanoi the capital of Vietnam and Saigon now called Ho Che Minh > City? > The North Vietnamese took over when we were forced to leave. > That’s a laughable premise.

We were talking about the Viet Cong. Watch the PBS documentary about the Viet Cong. You’ll learn something. Well maybe not. (;>) There are many reasons why Hanoi is the Capitol now. Appeasers caused the loss of 50,000 or so troops, to be in vain. Plus the traitors running the country during the time. Have a great Holiday Season Texas Blue

Response:

> I have been offered jobs in Afghanistan & Iraq. > Extremely well paying jobs. > Then go!

Gulf Coast needs me more. The people in those countries need to do their own building & rebuilding. Sense of pride for doing their own work. Have a great Holiday Season Texas Blue

Response:

Question:

General William Odom, former head of the National Security Agency, believes the only way to stabilize the Middle East is to leave Iraq now. The retired general points out that we are alienating our allies and we need a coalition to help us stabilize the region. The idea that things will be worse when we leave misperceives that we are causing those very things today — we have created civil war in the region. The longer we stay, the worse the situation will become. Staying in and making matters worse, will embolden the terrorists even more — we don’t have a choice but to leave. _____ CNN Video here: http://dailydissent.org/video/cnnodom120205a.wmv        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

"WE" created a civil war in the region? I guess leaving sadam in power would have prevented that. Also, several thousand years of history doesn’t figure in to that statement either? Keep on blaming the U.S. We are the only bad guys on the planet. When a rag head blows you up, remember you are the bad guy. Lefty bullshit at it’s worst! And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down, There are improvements in most of the country. Finally more Iraqi’s are informing on terrorists & stepping up to help with their independence. Did you believe the sorry bunch that had the power & privilege for 40 years would jus roll over? But lefties only listen to their spin. Yes there will probably be a civil war of some kind. We had one too. I guess England was responsible for that one? Using lefty logic. We sure do not want anyone having to take responsibility for their own actions. You appeasers would have been content to let sadam keep us tied up forever, while he corrupted all the so called allies we have. The terrorist element will eventually die off. But only when everyone works to stop them. Texas Blue

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> General William Odom, former head of the > National Security Agency, believes the only > way to stabilize the Middle East is to leave > Iraq now. The retired general points out > that we are alienating our allies and we > need a coalition to help us stabilize the > region. The idea that things will be worse > when we leave misperceives that we are > causing those very things today — we have > created civil war in the region. The longer > we stay, the worse the situation will > become. Staying in and making matters worse, > will embolden the terrorists even more — we > don’t have a choice but to leave. > _____ > CNN Video here: > http://dailydissent.org/video/cnnodom120205a.wmv >       Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >             >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< > -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

>"WE" created a civil war in the region?

No, we just removed the only effective constraint on the existing ethnic and religious rivalries in what is essentially an artificial country created by our predecessors, the late and unlamented British Empire! >I guess leaving sadam in power would have prevented that.

Yup — at least under Saddam the people only had him and his cronies to fear, now there’s their own local neighbors to worry about.   The American occupation and the insurgency it incited have made the country a much more dangerous place to be than it ever was under the old regime.  A similar thing happen in the Balkans when Tito died — while he had an iron fist looming over everyone, they lived ] together in peace and even intermarried and hosted the Olympics.  The moment their (admittedly cruel and brutal) dictator was gone, they were at each other’s throats along ethnic and religious lines just as they are in Iraq today. >Also, several >thousand years of history doesn’t figure in to that statement either?

Of course they do –we didn’t create Pandora’s Box, we were just stupid enough to open it when we had no means of closing it back up! >Keep on blaming the U.S. We are the only bad guys on the planet.

No, we’re good guys with very bad national leaders who are both incompetent and dishonest. >When a rag head blows you up, remember you are the bad guy.

No Iraqi has ever attacked America — Americans have to go over there to get attacked.   Get this please: Iraq had nothing whatsoever to with the events of 9/11/01 and the current occupation has made the world more terrorist- friendly than ever. >Lefty bullshit at it’s worst!

So saith righty ignorance of the facts. >And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down,

Yeah, the number of attacks is down for November, but the number of victims, both American and Iraqi, continues to climb.  Bottom line: fewer, bigger, more effective insurgent attacks. >There >are improvements in most of the country.

Except that service levels are still *way* below what was provided under the Saddam Hussein regime and public safely is worse than at any other time in the history of Iraq.  We haven’t done diddley except make a few crooked corporations very rich. >Finally more Iraqi’s are informing >on terrorists & stepping up to help with their independence.

Says who?  Could be, I don’t know myself and would be interested to read your source. >Did you believe >the sorry bunch that had the power & privilege for 40 years would jus roll >over?

No, but apparently the Idiot-In-Chief in the White House did! >But lefties only listen to their spin.

*Whose* "spin" are "lefties" supposedly listening to?  Thanks in advance for clueing me in! >Yes there will probably be a civil war of some kind.

There already is — and our people are in the crossfire!  What the hell does that accomplish? >We had one too.

Yup, 70+ years down the pike. >I guess >England was responsible for that one? Using lefty logic.

Nope, the English and their Hessian mercenaries were long gone — which is what we and our mercenaries should be, from Iraq! >We sure do not want anyone having to take responsibility for their own >actions.

If you really believe that, why are our people taking fire for people how should be "taking responsiblity for their own actions?"   Don’t the invasion and occupation of Iraq comprise *our* "own actions" or did the people of Iraq mail us an engraved invitation? >You appeasers would have been content to let sadam keep us tied up forever, >while he corrupted all the so called allies we have.

Sure beats 2,000+ Americans killed and tens of thousands maimed, resulting a long, bloody civil war — we had that toothless old blowhard in a box, no-fly zones north and south, his country crawling with arms inspectors, at a cost that was a tiny fraction of the price we’re pay now, and for *what*? >The terrorist element will eventually die off.

Not as long as we’re there to make them look like heros and martyrs trying to drive out the "Christian Crusaders!" >But only when everyone works to stop them.

Bullseye — let’s get the hell out of Dodge and see if the Iraqis can do their own nation building.  As long as we’re there to do all the heavy lifting, why shouldn’t they just let Uncle Sam do it?   From the p.o.v. of Middle East culture, why should they risk their neck any more than they have to when there are lots of American there willing to fight and die? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Texas Blue > General William Odom, former head of the > National Security Agency, believes the only > way to stabilize the Middle East is to leave > Iraq now. The retired general points out > that we are alienating our allies and we > need a coalition to help us stabilize the > region. The idea that things will be worse > when we leave misperceives that we are > causing those very things today — we have > created civil war in the region. The longer > we stay, the worse the situation will > become. Staying in and making matters worse, > will embolden the terrorists even more — we > don’t have a choice but to leave. > _____ > CNN Video here: > http://dailydissent.org/video/cnnodom120205a.wmv >       Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >             >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< > -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

       Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

> "WE" created a civil war in the region?

Yes. > And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down

But casualties are way up, meaning that the insurgents are becoming more efficient. > Yes there will probably be a civil war of some kind.

It’s already happening. > We had one too.

It wasn’t started by someone else. > The terrorist element will eventually die off.

Sure. Just like the Viet Cong "died off".

Response:

>"WE" created a civil war in the region? > No, we just removed the > only effective constraint > on the existing ethnic and > religious rivalries in what > is essentially an > artificial country created > by our predecessors, the > late and unlamented British > Empire!

All Shite’s disagree with you! >I guess leaving sadam in power would have prevented that. > Yup — at least under Saddam > the people only had him and > his cronies to fear, now > there’s their own local > neighbors to worry about.

All Shite’s disagree with you! > The American occupation and > the insurgency it incited > have made the country a much > more dangerous place to be > than it ever was under the > old regime.

Only in the places were the Suni’s "used" to rule! 3 provinces. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - A similar thing > happen in the Balkans when > Tito died — while he had an > iron fist looming over > everyone, they lived ] > together in peace and even > intermarried and hosted the > Olympics.  The moment their > (admittedly cruel and > brutal) dictator was gone, > they were at each other’s > throats along ethnic and > religious lines just as they > are in Iraq today.

Yes, that’s why we "still" have troops in the area. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Also, several >thousand years of history doesn’t figure in to that statement either? > Of course they do –we > didn’t create Pandora’s Box, > we were just stupid enough > to open it when we had no > means of closing it back up! >Keep on blaming the U.S. We are the only bad guys on the planet. > No, we’re good guys with > very bad national leaders > who are both incompetent and > dishonest.

You "are" including ‘ALL" so called leaders, right? I sure haven’t seen any "leaders" since I’ve been alive. 1953 to date. >When a rag head blows you up, remember you are the bad guy. > No Iraqi has ever attacked > America — Americans have to > go over there to get attacked. > Get this please: Iraq had > nothing whatsoever to with the > events of 9/11/01 and the > current occupation has made > the world more terrorist- > friendly than ever.

Should have given the definition of a raghead. Has nothing to do with nationality, Muslim extremeist of the worst kind. Life ambition to kill infidels. Without oil, these people would all be dead. They produce no worth. Name "ANY" worthwhile contribution from the middle east for the betterment of the planet in the last 100 years. Medical, invention, etc. I know Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. I posted a while back, all the terrorist actions by date, starting long before this administration came in to office. The list shows the reason why, "something" had to be done. Sadam got to be it. Bad things are happening for sure. But they will get better or worse. Up to Iraqi’s now. Exactly where in this world are there more terrorist friendly countries???? Iraq is it. The news report on ABC, a few days ago, clearly showed, that except in "3" provinces, things were getting better. Even Iran & Sryia are keeping quiet. The appeasment of these little 2 bit countries, because of oil, caused all this. When they see we are through playing nice, they back down. Look at Lybia, for 1. As long as liberals sat & whined and tryed to make nice, these ragheads flourished. Now they are being called out & eliminated. They can’t use the banking system, like before & all eyes are watching. They have become "bad for business". Their time is limited. So we can expect some death throws. >Lefty bullshit at it’s worst! > So saith righty ignorance of > the facts. >And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down, > Yeah, the number of attacks > is down for November, but > the number of victims, both > American and Iraqi, continues > to climb.  Bottom line: > fewer, bigger, more effective > insurgent attacks.

Down for November, they’ll be down for Dec. & so on & so on. It’s called progress. Yes the attacks have been bigger, but by far fewer. They are running out of "stupid" people to do suicide bombings. Notice none of the so called terrorist leaders ever so the suicide bombings? And I posted today, fewer soldiers have been killed in Iraq, than citizens in Washington D.C. in the last 3 years. Granted any in either place is bad, but it’s nowhere in the same ballpark as Korea or Vietnam, for the same number of years. Sucks, but just what if this all pays off? >There >are improvements in most of the country. > Except that service levels > are still *way* below what > was provided under the > Saddam Hussein regime and > public safely is worse > than at any other time in > the history of Iraq.  We > haven’t done diddley > except make a few crooked > corporations very rich.

I guess you missed the part about all the new schools, rebuilding business, houses, etc. I think since you & the rest of the other 5 or so lefties in this group, think Sadam was such a good provider, you should live under those conditions yourselves for awhile. I’ve seen the way people have had to live under  tyrants & communists. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. And yes, hopefully all the crooks will be brought to justice. From all nationalities. >Finally more Iraqi’s are informing >on terrorists & stepping up to help with their independence. > Says who?  Could be, I > don’t know myself and > would be interested to > read your source.

ABC news  <<< evening news. >Did you believe >the sorry bunch that had the power & privilege for 40 years would just >roll >over? > No, but apparently the > Idiot-In-Chief in the > White House did!

That’s why he has said over & over, this would be hard & would take time to over come the legacy of 40 years of Sadams rule. Listen! >But lefties only listen to their spin. > *Whose* "spin" are > "lefties" supposedly > listening to?  Thanks > in advance for clueing > me in!

I’m not sure where any of you get your info. Lefties R Us, maybe? You all<<all in this group anyway, wouldn’t want pixie to have a useless point to argue, will flood this group with all the bad things the "conservatives" have done, yet refuse to admit to anything your liberal leadership has done. You all refuse to read any research. When you do, you pick 1 small item out of volumes, to latch on to. Like I said before, WHERE WERE ALL OF YOU WHEN THAT LYING, ADULTER, RAPIST, TRATIOR, bill clinton & his pack of thieves & traitors were in But no all we get is , why do you bring all that back up. Clinton was by far more of a cause of this countries problems, than Bush will ever be. And you can lie all you want to about how he saved the budget, yadda  yadda yadda, but I posted the truth about all that. Democrats lie as much or more than Republicans. Both have turned in to useless traitors. But I’ll side with whomever stands up & fights, instead of sitting on the sidelines yapping like a bunch of rabid chiuauas. >Yes there will probably be a civil war of some kind. > There already is — and > our people are in the > crossfire!  What the hell > does that accomplish?

Eventually, a group of people that want to live a good & peaceful life. >We had one too. > Yup, 70+ years down the > pike.

Well it had to start somewhere. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I guess >England was responsible for that one? Using lefty logic. > Nope, the English and their > Hessian mercenaries were > long gone — which is what > we and our mercenaries > should be, from Iraq! >We sure do not want anyone having to take responsibility for their own >actions. > If you really believe that, > why are our people taking > fire for people how should > be "taking responsiblity > for their own actions?" > Don’t the invasion and > occupation of Iraq comprise > *our* "own actions" or did > the people of Iraq mail us > an engraved invitation?

They were not in a condition where they could do anything about their situation. Yes many did call for us to come in. I guess you forgot all those press conferences? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->You appeasers would have been content to let sadam keep us tied up >forever, >while he corrupted all the so called allies we have. > Sure beats 2,000+ Americans > killed and tens of thousands > maimed, resulting a long, > bloody civil war — we had > that toothless old blowhard > in a box, no-fly zones north > and south, his country > crawling with arms inspectors, > at a cost that was a tiny > fraction of the price we’re > pay now, and for *what*?

You do realize what we had to pay to keep all that going, right? The arms inspectors were getting jerked around just like the U.N. Not counting all the corruption of the U.N. members. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The terrorist element will eventually die off. > Not as long as we’re there to > make them look like heros and > martyrs trying to

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Response:

> "WE" created a civil war in the region? > Yes.

Wrong > And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down > But casualties are way up, meaning that the insurgents are becoming more > efficient.

Nope, just means they are using up what they have left. > Yes there will probably be a civil war of some kind. > It’s already happening. > We had one too. > It wasn’t started by someone else.

We didn’t start a civil war, you wouldn’t research it anyway, but maybe you have heard they have been fighting for thousands of years? > The terrorist element will eventually die off. > Sure. Just like the Viet Cong "died off".

You don’t know much about anything do you. After the Tet Offensive, the Viet Cong were basically never a viable fighting force again. Their numbers were decimated. Of course the communist North Vietnamese planned that. The Viet Cong were actually patriots. Didn’t agree with them in any way shape or form, but they did the fighting. They were used, just like most warriors. The so called terrorists are getting used up much faster. It will calm down soon enough. Not soon enough for me, though.

Response:

> All Shite’s disagree with you!

You a Shi-ite Muslim?

Response:

> >> "WE" created a civil war in the region? > Yes. > Wrong

Right. >> And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down > But casualties are way up, meaning that the insurgents are becoming more > efficient. > Nope, just means they are using up what they have left.

Wrong again. It means they’re learning. >> Yes there will probably be a civil war of some kind. > It’s already happening. >> We had one too. > It wasn’t started by someone else. > We didn’t start a civil war

We didn’t start that whole North Vs South thing? What kind of idiot are you? >> The terrorist element will eventually die off. > Sure. Just like the Viet Cong "died off". > You don’t know much about anything do you.

More than you. > After the Tet Offensive, the Viet Cong were > basically never a viable fighting force again.

Funny that they won then, isn’t it?

Response:

Re: Reagan’s NSA Director sez….. Political shit. Guitars, Amps, Gear, Music, Musicians or fuck off ya phuctarded piss clam! Ya hairy taco! Ya stench trench!

Response:

political taco trench piss clammmage Amps! Guitars! Gear! Music!

Response:

>Re: Reagan’s NSA Director sez….. >Political shit. >Guitars, Amps, Gear, Music, Musicians or fuck off ya phuctarded piss >clam! Ya hairy taco! Ya stench trench!

Hey Mulay, blow it out your ass.  If we elected king of the phuctards you’d be it.  We might even give you wheatonjohn as queen for a day. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas, Doktor Freud,  Freep the Xenophobe, Chuck, pseudobacker, Max Floater and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  and, at his own request, Lars Overshank (aka ‘The Cowardly Lion’) Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca http://www.criticalhistory.com/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>"WE" created a civil war in the region? > No, we just removed the > only effective constraint > on the existing ethnic and > religious rivalries in what > is essentially an > artificial country created > by our predecessors, the > late and unlamented British > Empire! >All Shite’s disagree with you!

C’mon, neither one of us would know a Shiite if we ran into one at the 7-11.  How many Shiites have you spoken to that you can make a statement about "All Shites(sic)?"   Maybe you meant "All Shits" in which case you might very well be right (of center, naturally). >>I guess leaving sadam in power would have prevented that. > Yup — at least under Saddam > the people only had him and > his cronies to fear, now > there’s their own local > neighbors to worry about. >All Shite’s disagree with you!

See above — you’re talking through your Stetson, Texas! > The American occupation and > the insurgency it incited > have made the country a much > more dangerous place to be > than it ever was under the > old regime. >Only in the places were the Suni’s "used" to rule! >3 provinces.

You think it’s safer now in Basra, where the Brits had to break their guys out jail?  I think not, son. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A similar thing > happen in the Balkans when > Tito died — while he had an > iron fist looming over > everyone, they lived ] > together in peace and even > intermarried and hosted the > Olympics.  The moment their > (admittedly cruel and > brutal) dictator was gone, > they were at each other’s > throats along ethnic and > religious lines just as they > are in Iraq today. >Yes, that’s why we "still" have troops in the area.

Yet somehow, our casualties were in the single digits.   Know why?  Because we were welcome there, that’s why! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Also, several >>thousand years of history doesn’t figure in to that statement either? > Of course they do –we > didn’t create Pandora’s Box, > we were just stupid enough > to open it when we had no > means of closing it back up! >>Keep on blaming the U.S. We are the only bad guys on the planet. > No, we’re good guys with > very bad national leaders > who are both incompetent and > dishonest. >You "are" including ‘ALL" so called leaders, right?

Nope, but unfortunately it includes the one with the desk where the buck stops. >I sure haven’t seen any "leaders" since I’ve been alive. 1953 to date.

You didn’t like Ronny Ray-Gun?  Too liberal for you, perhaps?   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>When a rag head blows you up, remember you are the bad guy. > No Iraqi has ever attacked > America — Americans have to > go over there to get attacked. > Get this please: Iraq had > nothing whatsoever to with the > events of 9/11/01 and the > current occupation has made > the world more terrorist- > friendly than ever. >Should have given the definition of a raghead. >Has nothing to do with nationality, Muslim extremeist of the worst kind.

Answer one question — the people who attacked us were mostly Saudis.  Why invade Iraq when the immediate threat to our country originated elsewhere? >Life ambition to kill infidels.

Killers willing to die comprise a tiny minority, even in the most backward, medieval Muslim societies.   The tens of thousands of Iraqis who have died since we invaded ain’t them. >Without oil, these people would all be dead.

….and your point is? >They produce no worth.

…and for the most part they live lives commensurate with their personal productivity. Once again, this has nothing to do with Iraq, which is (or at least *was*, until we got in there) the most highly- educated and westernized society in the middle east other than Israel (which is essentially a transplanted central European country). >Name "ANY" worthwhile contribution from the middle >east for the betterment of the planet in the last 100 years. >Medical, invention, etc.

So, they don’t meet your standards for productivity and innovation — that sounds like the Nazis talking about Czechs, Poles, and Russians!  Your point is? >I know Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

Well, good, at least you’re conscious, after a fashion.         >I posted a while back, all the terrorist actions by date, starting long >before this administration came in to office.

I’m getting tired waiting for your point, but I’ll persevere! >The list shows the reason why, "something" had to be done.

As in "Do something — anything?"  We should have had a national day of karaoke, it would have done just as much good as invading Iraq and a lot less harm! >Sadam got to be it.

Saddam is still alive, but tens of thousands of Iraqi innocents aren’t, and more are dying pretty much every day. >Bad things are happening for sure.

Well, like DUH!!! >But they will get better or worse.

A safe bet — any more wisdom up your sleeve? >Up to Iraqi’s now.

The Iraqi government, such as it is, asked us to set a withdrawal timetable within the last week or so.  Dumber’nyuh won’t do that.  Is it their country or his, Texas? >Exactly where in this world are there more terrorist friendly countries????

Iraq wasn’t particularly "terrorist-friendly" until we arrived — now it’s an international training ground that makes Taliban- run Afghanistan look like a pacifist summer camp.   About the only relation between Saddam Hussein and terrorists of any kind was that he cut some checks to the families of dead Palestinian homicide bombers, just like any number of rich Saudis and Kuwaitis do on an ongoing basis — the Israelis had more of a gripe with that the we do, and they sure as hell weren’t stupid enough to start a war over it! >Iraq is it.

If "it" means FUBAR, you’re right! >The news report on ABC, a few days ago, clearly showed, that except in "3" >provinces, things were getting better.

In that case, those "3" provinces must be getting a whole lot worse, because the casualty figures keep climbing and climbing.  You forgot to mention that one of the "3" includes the city of Baghdad. >Even Iran & Sryia are keeping quiet.

Have you ever heard the old military adage "Never interrupt your adversary when he’s in the process of making a mistake?"   Invading and occupying Iraq are bleeding the American military and economy dry, and since the Shiites stand to gain the most regardless of whether we stay or go, why should the region’s two Shiite-majority countries interrupt us?  Syria and Iran come up winners without firing a shot as long as we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot! >The appeasment of these little 2 bit countries, because of oil, caused all >this. When they see we are through playing nice, they back down.

See above.  They’re behaving because we’re in the process of screwing up, not because they fear us.  A U.S. threat has taken on the tone of "Stop misbehaving, or will screw up ourselves in *your* country next!"  Even that has no credibility, since we don’t even have enough boots on the ground in Iraq, let alone enough to deal with anything else! >Look at Lybia, for 1.

Ghaddaffi is an opportunist, he saw the chance to make his lucrative business with the Europeans a litte less troublesome and he took it. >As long as liberals sat & whined and tryed to make nice, these ragheads >flourished. Now they are being called out & eliminated.

Horseshit, they’re being tolerated and even supported as long as they play ball by U.S. rules.  Mushareff, Mubarek, the royals in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait — all America’s great allies, all dictator-run hotbeds for turning "ragheads" into terrorists. >They can’t use the >banking system, like before & all eyes are watching. They have become "bad >for business". >Their time is limited. So we can expect some death throws.

Good lord, Texas, are you channeling Mary Poppins or Dick Cheney?  If Mushareff or Mubarek are in their "death throws(sic)," who do you think is coming to power in those countries?   If you said "Islamicist extremists" you’d be damned right, because there’s certainly no constituency for western- style secular government in any of those places! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Lefty bullshit at it’s worst! > So saith righty ignorance of > the facts. >>And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down, > Yeah, the number of attacks > is down for November, but > the number of victims, both > American and Iraqi, continues > to climb.  Bottom line: > fewer, bigger, more effective > insurgent attacks. >Down for November, they’ll be down for Dec. & so on & so on. It’s called >progress.

We’ll see.  I’m hearing loud echos of the ‘Nam years myself — "Vietnamization" my ass! >Yes the attacks have been bigger, but by far fewer. They are running out of >"stupid" people to do suicide bombings.

No, they’re not — and by far the most common attacks are not suicidal, they’re roadside bombs, most recently followed by small arms fire.   If nothing else, the insurgents are flexible — they’ll take what our tactics give them, and we can’t take away very much. >Notice none of the so called >terrorist leaders ever so the suicide bombings?

Of course — the "leaders" aren’t stupid people, they *use* stupid people! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->And I

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Response:

> Re: Reagan’s NSA Director sez….. > Political shit. > Guitars, Amps, Gear, Music, Musicians or fuck off ya phuctarded piss > clam! Ya hairy taco! Ya stench trench!

Observe this latest incarnation of Halbesel, who has earned lifetime residency in the killfiles of usenet subscribers everywhere, suddenly becoming seem-holy by following a regimen of on-topic posts, until the opportunity presents itself to subject off-topic, but sane, posters to the type of abuse he misses himself receiving.  At such times he reverts to scatological grammar school vulgarity, previously his stock in trade. Obviously his new leaf is more burden than he can bear. Dr. Freud D.M.Psc.Abn.

Response:

(snip) > Bullseye — let’s get the hell > out of Dodge

.. as in, ‘cut and run’…  figures that would be your solution. >… and see if the > Iraqis can do their own nation > building.  

Hey, we left the Afghanis to try it on their own… have you a clue as to what happened then…?? > As long as we’re > there to do all the heavy > lifting, why shouldn’t they > just let Uncle Sam do it?   > From the p.o.v. of Middle East > culture,

Like, you know the "culture" of the Middle East..??? How so..??? > why should they risk > their neck any more than they > have to when there are lots of > American there willing to > fight and die?

You insult the Iraqis…  they are risking their necks every day.. and dying a-plenty.  They are fighting as well… against the insurgency. After 3 yrs there is no civil war… a feat of no small amount. You’re an arm-chair political/military analyst of zero intelect and insight. Are you in Iraq asking folks if they want to "risk their neck" any more than they have to ..??? We know the answer…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Texas Blue >>General William Odom, former head of the >>National Security Agency, believes the only >>way to stabilize the Middle East is to leave >>Iraq now. The retired general points out >>that we are alienating our allies and we >>need a coalition to help us stabilize the >>region. The idea that things will be worse >>when we leave misperceives that we are >>causing those very things today — we have >>created civil war in the region. The longer >>we stay, the worse the situation will >>become. Staying in and making matters worse, >>will embolden the terrorists even more — we >>don’t have a choice but to leave. >>_____ >>CNN Video here: >>http://dailydissent.org/video/cnnodom120205a.wmv >>      Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >>            >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< >>-=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=- >        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< > -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > (snip) > Bullseye — let’s get the hell > out of Dodge > .. as in, ‘cut and run’…  figures that would be your solution. >… and see if the > Iraqis can do their own nation > building. > Hey, we left the Afghanis to try it on their own… have you a clue as > to what happened then…?? > As long as we’re > there to do all the heavy > lifting, why shouldn’t they > just let Uncle Sam do it? > From the p.o.v. of Middle East > culture, > Like, you know the "culture" of the Middle East..??? > How so..??? > why should they risk > their neck any more than they > have to when there are lots of > American there willing to > fight and die? > You insult the Iraqis…  they are risking their necks every day.. and > dying a-plenty.  They are fighting as well… against the insurgency. > After 3 yrs there is no civil war… a feat of no small amount. > You’re an arm-chair political/military analyst of zero intelect and > insight. Are you in Iraq asking folks if they want to "risk their > neck" any more than they have to ..??? > We know the answer….

To such intellects as the Fire Station House Mother the pullout from Vietnam and the subsequent bloodbath in Cambodia under the Rote Khmer are either completely unrelated events or a political success story.  It seems unclear even to them which is the case, but they seem determined to repeat it in any case. Dr. Fr. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Texas Blue >>>General William Odom, former head of the >>>National Security Agency, believes the only >>>way to stabilize the Middle East is to leave >>>Iraq now. The retired general points out >>>that we are alienating our allies and we >>>need a coalition to help us stabilize the >>>region. The idea that things will be worse >>>when we leave misperceives that we are >>>causing those very things today — we have >>>created civil war in the region. The longer >>>we stay, the worse the situation will >>>become. Staying in and making matters worse, >>>will embolden the terrorists even more — we >>>don’t have a choice but to leave. >>>_____ >>>CNN Video here: >>>http://dailydissent.org/video/cnnodom120205a.wmv >>>      Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >>>            >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< >>>-=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=- >        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< > -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>"WE" created a civil war in the region? >> No, we just removed the >> only effective constraint >> on the existing ethnic and >> religious rivalries in what >> is essentially an >> artificial country created >> by our predecessors, the >> late and unlamented British >> Empire! >All Shite’s disagree with you! > C’mon, neither one of us > would know a Shiite if > we ran into one at the > 7-11.  How many Shiites > have you spoken to that > you can make a statement > about "All Shites(sic)?" > Maybe you meant "All > Shits" in which case you > might very well be right > (of center, naturally).

Exactly! Also, I have known Suni & Shiite. Both families left their country. 1 because of the Iran/Iraq war, 1 because of sadam. Both were nice families. We even took one of the fathers deer & turkey hunting. Shiite’s were treated brutally. Suni’s not much better. I could go on about this, but I want to play my guitars today. I’ve wasted enough time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>I guess leaving sadam in power would have prevented that. >> Yup — at least under Saddam >> the people only had him and >> his cronies to fear, now >> there’s their own local >> neighbors to worry about. >All Shite’s disagree with you! > See above — you’re talking > through your Stetson, > Texas!

Yep, got a Stetson 3x beaver – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> The American occupation and >> the insurgency it incited >> have made the country a much >> more dangerous place to be >> than it ever was under the >> old regime. >Only in the places were the Suni’s "used" to rule! >3 provinces. > You think it’s safer now > in Basra, where the > Brits had to break their > guys out jail?  I think > not, son. > A similar thing >> happen in the Balkans when >> Tito died — while he had an >> iron fist looming over >> everyone, they lived ] >> together in peace and even >> intermarried and hosted the >> Olympics.  The moment their >> (admittedly cruel and >> brutal) dictator was gone, >> they were at each other’s >> throats along ethnic and >> religious lines just as they >> are in Iraq today. >Yes, that’s why we "still" have troops in the area. > Yet somehow, our casualties > were in the single digits. > Know why?  Because we were > welcome there, that’s why! >>>Also, several >>>thousand years of history doesn’t figure in to that statement either? >> Of course they do –we >> didn’t create Pandora’s Box, >> we were just stupid enough >> to open it when we had no >> means of closing it back up! >>>Keep on blaming the U.S. We are the only bad guys on the planet. >> No, we’re good guys with >> very bad national leaders >> who are both incompetent and >> dishonest. >You "are" including ‘ALL" so called leaders, right? > Nope, but unfortunately it > includes the one with the > desk where the buck stops. >I sure haven’t seen any "leaders" since I’ve been alive. 1953 to date. > You didn’t like Ronny > Ray-Gun?  Too liberal for > you, perhaps?

Regan was as phony as they come. He was under the control of the bankers. Becuase of his association with communist groups. He told off on them in the Senate hearings & became one of their boys. Remember about the cocaine problems?  Just say No, while Nancy’s CIA flys it in low. But with his trillion $ hot check, he got some things started. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>When a rag head blows you up, remember you are the bad guy. >> No Iraqi has ever attacked >> America — Americans have to >> go over there to get attacked. >> Get this please: Iraq had >> nothing whatsoever to with the >> events of 9/11/01 and the >> current occupation has made >> the world more terrorist- >> friendly than ever. >Should have given the definition of a raghead. >Has nothing to do with nationality, Muslim extremeist of the worst kind. > Answer one question — the > people who attacked us were > mostly Saudis.  Why invade > Iraq when the immediate > threat to our country > originated elsewhere? >Life ambition to kill infidels. > Killers willing to die > comprise a tiny minority, > even in the most backward, > medieval Muslim societies. > The tens of thousands of > Iraqis who have died since > we invaded ain’t them. >Without oil, these people would all be dead. > ….and your point is? >They produce no worth. > …and for the most part > they live lives > commensurate with their > personal productivity. > Once again, this has nothing > to do with Iraq, which is (or > at least *was*, until we got > in there) the most highly- > educated and westernized > society in the middle east > other than Israel (which is > essentially a transplanted > central European country). >Name "ANY" worthwhile contribution from the middle >east for the betterment of the planet in the last 100 years. >Medical, invention, etc. > So, they don’t meet your > standards for productivity > and innovation — that > sounds like the Nazis > talking about Czechs, Poles, > and Russians!  Your point > is?

Has nothing to do with any of that. Someone either "has" to bring them in to the future, or we will be killing them forever. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I know Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. > Well, good, at least you’re > conscious, after a fashion. > >I posted a while back, all the terrorist actions by date, starting long >before this administration came in to office. > I’m getting tired waiting > for your point, but I’ll > persevere! >The list shows the reason why, "something" had to be done. > As in "Do something — > anything?"  We should have > had a national day of > karaoke, it would have done > just as much good as > invading Iraq and a lot > less harm! >Sadam got to be it. > Saddam is still alive, but > tens of thousands of Iraqi > innocents aren’t, and more > are dying pretty much every > day. >Bad things are happening for sure. > Well, like DUH!!! >But they will get better or worse. > A safe bet — any more > wisdom up your sleeve? >Up to Iraqi’s now. > The Iraqi government, such > as it is, asked us to set > a withdrawal timetable > within the last week or > so.  Dumber’nyuh won’t do > that.  Is it their country > or his, Texas?

Their’s unless they can’t handle it. But they have to help to get started. They have never had to be responsible for themselves. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Exactly where in this world are there more terrorist friendly >countries???? > Iraq wasn’t particularly > "terrorist-friendly" until > we arrived — now it’s an > international training > ground that makes Taliban- > run Afghanistan look like > a pacifist summer camp. > About the only relation > between Saddam Hussein and > terrorists of any kind was > that he cut some checks to > the families of dead > Palestinian homicide > bombers, just like any > number of rich Saudis and > Kuwaitis do on an ongoing > basis — the Israelis had > more of a gripe with that > the we do, and they sure > as hell weren’t stupid > enough to start a war over > it! >Iraq is it. > If "it" means FUBAR, you’re > right! >The news report on ABC, a few days ago, clearly showed, that except in "3" >provinces, things were getting better. > In that case, those "3" > provinces must be getting a > whole lot worse, because > the casualty figures keep > climbing and climbing.  You > forgot to mention that one > of the "3" includes the > city of Baghdad. >Even Iran & Sryia are keeping quiet. > Have you ever heard the old > military adage "Never interrupt > your adversary when he’s in the > process of making a mistake?" > Invading and occupying Iraq are > bleeding the American military > and economy dry, and since the > Shiites stand to gain the most > regardless of whether we stay > or go, why should the region’s > two Shiite-majority countries > interrupt us?  Syria and Iran > come up winners without firing > a shot as long as we continue > to shoot ourselves in the foot!

Syria & Iran both know they can be next, with litte or no provacation. We haven’t shot ourselves in the foot. Major mistakes were made in planning for the "peace". It’ll work out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The appeasment of these little 2 bit countries, because of oil, caused all >this. When they see we are through playing nice, they back down. > See above.  They’re behaving > because we’re in the process > of screwing up, not because > they fear us.  A U.S. threat > has taken on the tone of "Stop > misbehaving, or will screw up > ourselves in *your* country > next!"  Even that has no > credibility, since we don’t > even have enough boots on the > ground in Iraq, let alone > enough to deal with anything > else! >Look at Lybia, for 1. > Ghaddaffi is an opportunist, > he saw the chance to make > his lucrative business with > the Europeans a litte less > troublesome and he took it.

Yes exactly, see our policy worked. Either get blown up or behave & live the … read more »

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> "WE" created a civil war in the region? > > Yes. > Wrong > Right. > >> And by the way, other generals have shown that attacks are way down > > But casualties are way up, meaning that the insurgents are becoming > > more > > efficient. > Nope, just means they are using up what they have left. > Wrong again. It means they’re learning. > >> Yes there will probably be a civil war of some kind. > > It’s already happening. > >> We had one too. > > It wasn’t started by someone else. > We didn’t start a civil war > We didn’t start that whole North Vs South thing? What kind of idiot are > you? > >> The terrorist element will eventually die off. > > Sure. Just like the Viet Cong "died off". > You don’t know much about anything do you. > More than you. > After the Tet Offensive, the Viet Cong were > basically never a viable fighting force again. > Funny that they won then, isn’t it?

Viet Cong did not win the Tet Offensive. The North Vietnamese took over when we were forced to leave.<<< by politicians. Have a Happy Holiday Season Texas Blue

Response:

> All Shite’s disagree with you! > You a Shi-ite Muslim?

I type shite. Meant exactly like it is spelled. Look at my other post about my knowledge of shiite & suni. Have a great Holiday Season Texas Blue

Response:

> >> After the Tet Offensive, the Viet Cong were >> basically never a viable fighting force again. > Funny that they won then, isn’t it? > Viet Cong did not win the Tet Offensive.

So why is Hanoi the capital of Vietnam and Saigon now called Ho Che Minh City? > The North Vietnamese took over when we were forced to leave.

That’s a laughable premise.

Response:

> I have been offered jobs in Afghanistan & Iraq. > Extremely well paying jobs.

Then go!

Response:

> my knowledge of shiite & suni

Included in your "knowledge" should be the idea that Shi-ite and Sunni are capitalized. But what do you know?

Response:

>(snip) > Bullseye — let’s get the hell > out of Dodge >.. as in, ‘cut and run’…  figures that would be your solution.

When there’s nothing to be accomplished — and the *heavy* consensus is that there isn’t — only an idiot sticks around to bleed and die. >… and see if the > Iraqis can do their own nation > building.   >Hey, we left the Afghanis to try it on their own… have you a clue as >to what happened then…??

I thought Afghanistan was a huge success, at least that’s what the White House calls it.  Do you disagree? > As long as we’re > there to do all the heavy > lifting, why shouldn’t they > just let Uncle Sam do it?   > From the p.o.v. of Middle East > culture, >Like, you know the "culture" of the Middle East..??? >How so..???

Read the history of the Crusades — Arab men still discuss Saladin like he only recently defeated the Christians! > why should they risk > their neck any more than they > have to when there are lots of > American there willing to > fight and die? >You insult the Iraqis…  they are risking their necks every day.. and >dying a-plenty.  

That’s for sure, but mostly just trying to get through the day, not fighting much unless it’s each other. >They are fighting as well… against the insurgency.

ROTFLMAO — they are just as much, if not more, for the insurgency as they are for their government.  I’ve heard testimony that a two- digit percentage of the so- called Iraq military are actually insurgents showing up for a paycheck!  The bottom line is that we cannot identify who the enemy is in a place where virtually everyone wants us gone.  As long as we are there, the insurgents can pretend they heroes of the people and gain more and more recruits and support! >After 3 yrs there is no civil war… a feat of no small amount.

You’re not paying attention — the insurgency *is* essentially a civil war, the only difference is that there’s no single united insurgent leadership.  The main dynamic is Sunnis vs. Shiites, in addition to pretty much everyone wanting the U.S. troops gone. >You’re an arm-chair political/military analyst of zero intelect and >insight. Are you in Iraq asking folks if they want to "risk their >neck" any more than they have to ..???

I can read and so can you.   You simply choose not to and would rather dream of a situation that doesn’t exist. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Texas Blue >>>General William Odom, former head of the >>>National Security Agency, believes the only >>>way to stabilize the Middle East is to leave >>>Iraq now. The retired general points out >>>that we are alienating our allies and we >>>need a coalition to help us stabilize the >>>region. The idea that things will be worse >>>when we leave misperceives that we are >>>causing those very things today — we have >>>created civil war in the region. The longer >>>we stay, the worse the situation will >>>become. Staying in and making matters worse, >>>will embolden the terrorists even more — we >>>don’t have a choice but to leave. >>>_____ >>>CNN Video here: >>>http://dailydissent.org/video/cnnodom120205a.wmv >>>      Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >>>            >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< >>>-=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=- >        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< > -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

       Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->(snip) >>Bullseye — let’s get the hell >>out of Dodge >.. as in, ‘cut and run’…  figures that would be your solution. > When there’s nothing to be > accomplished — and the > *heavy* consensus is that > there isn’t — only an > idiot sticks around to > bleed and die.

No. Take George Washington for example….  maybe you should read a little of history to get a perspective on what "nothing to be accomplished" might really mean. >>… and see if the >>Iraqis can do their own nation >>building.   >Hey, we left the Afghanis to try it on their own… have you a clue as >to what happened then…?? > I thought Afghanistan was > a huge success, at least > that’s what the White > House calls it.  Do you > disagree?

You’re and idiot… well, maybe you’re just young… which often makes people *appear* idiotic.  There was an "Afghaniston" before you were born.  Look it up. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>As long as we’re >>there to do all the heavy >>lifting, why shouldn’t they >>just let Uncle Sam do it?   >>From the p.o.v. of Middle East >>culture, >Like, you know the "culture" of the Middle East..??? >How so..??? > Read the history of the > Crusades — Arab men > still discuss Saladin > like he only recently > defeated the Christians!

Sheesh…! ! ! >>why should they risk >>their neck any more than they >>have to when there are lots of >>American there willing to >>fight and die? >You insult the Iraqis…  they are risking their necks every day.. and >dying a-plenty.   > That’s for sure, but mostly > just trying to get through > the day, not fighting much > unless it’s each other.

Again… you’re totally uninformed.  Sorry. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->They are fighting as well… against the insurgency. > ROTFLMAO — they are just > as much, if not more, for > the insurgency as they are > for their government.  I’ve > heard testimony that a two- > digit percentage of the so- > called Iraq military are > actually insurgents showing > up for a paycheck!  The > bottom line is that we > cannot identify who the > enemy is in a place where > virtually everyone wants us > gone.  As long as we are > there, the insurgents can > pretend they heroes of the > people and gain more and > more recruits and support!

You’re dreaming. Sorry. >After 3 yrs there is no civil war… a feat of no small amount. > You’re not paying attention > — the insurgency *is* > essentially a civil war,

"Essentially"..???  Look up the word dude.. > the only difference is that > there’s no single united > insurgent leadership.  

You need some history classes. > The  main dynamic is Sunnis vs. > Shiites, in addition to > pretty much everyone > wanting the U.S. troops > gone.

Pretty much everyone…???  Wow, aren’t you the Iraqi public opinion expert..! ! ! ! ! >You’re an arm-chair political/military analyst of zero intelect and >insight. Are you in Iraq asking folks if they want to "risk their >neck" any more than they have to ..??? > I can read and so can you.   > You simply choose not to > and would rather dream of > a situation that doesn’t > exist.

Well read then.  You’ve so much to learn. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>Texas Blue >>>>General William Odom, former head of the >>>>National Security Agency, believes the only >>>>way to stabilize the Middle East is to leave >>>>Iraq now. The retired general points out >>>>that we are alienating our allies and we >>>>need a coalition to help us stabilize the >>>>region. The idea that things will be worse >>>>when we leave misperceives that we are >>>>causing those very things today — we have >>>>created civil war in the region. The longer >>>>we stay, the worse the situation will >>>>become. Staying in and making matters worse, >>>>will embolden the terrorists even more — we >>>>don’t have a choice but to leave. >>>>_____ >>>>CNN Video here: >>>>http://dailydissent.org/video/cnnodom120205a.wmv >>>>     Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >>>>           >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< >>>>-=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=- >>       Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >>             >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< >>-=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=- >        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< > -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> After the Tet Offensive, the Viet Cong were > >> basically never a viable fighting force again. > > Funny that they won then, isn’t it? > Viet Cong did not win the Tet Offensive. > So why is Hanoi the capital of Vietnam and Saigon now called Ho Che Minh > City? > The North Vietnamese took over when we were forced to leave. > That’s a laughable premise.

We were talking about the Viet Cong. Watch the PBS documentary about the Viet Cong. You’ll learn something. Well maybe not. (;>) There are many reasons why Hanoi is the Capitol now. Appeasers caused the loss of 50,000 or so troops, to be in vain. Plus the traitors running the country during the time. Have a great Holiday Season Texas Blue

Response:

> I have been offered jobs in Afghanistan & Iraq. > Extremely well paying jobs. > Then go!

Gulf Coast needs me more. The people in those countries need to do their own building & rebuilding. Sense of pride for doing their own work. Have a great Holiday Season Texas Blue

Response:

Question:

I have a house in the UK.   It’s in the southern part of the country (where Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire come close to one another).   It is heated using Oil (I’m off gas mains) which also provides my hot water.   The boiler is only abut 5 years old.   I have a South West facing roof face. I’m beginning to think about retirement, at the moment, I still have a salary to help me fund "improvements".   We’ve installed double glazing and are in the process of arranging to improve the insulation.   My thoughts are now turning to other ways of trying to minimise my dependence on oil and to try and keep my bills at a reasonable level (assuming the price of oil will remain relatively high).   Whilst I’m not planning to spend money for the sake of it, I’m not necessarily looking at this on a payback basis. My initial thinking said "Solar Heating".   Well, I immediately ran into a flat plate/evacuated tube debate which I’m beginning to get the hang of but if anyone would like to explain it to me in words of one syllable (or point me at a web site that does) I’d be grateful.   Oh, and I failed initially to realise the difference between PV and heating! I’ve also come across Heat Pumps which I recognise are more expensive and can require quite a large area in which to lay the field (although you can drill down).   I may have the space for a field but I suspect not quite enough.   Heat pumps have the added attrraction of appearing to offer the opportunity to generate both heat and cooling (although you can’t transmit cool air using a radiator based system so there’s more cost, I assume).   I know this is a solar group but if anyone can point me at another single syllable web site where I can enhance my understanding I’d be grateful. And if there are any books I should read…..

Response:

Do some  looking at  solar setup that follows the sun as it goes across the sky – i.e tracking system for solar since you don’t have a pure southern roof ) and radiant heat for the floors ( there are radiant system that can retrofit a older home without tearing up the floor to lay concrete or new floor boards ).  What have you done to windows facing southwest (front of house ?). Have a  HVAC (heating and cooling specialist ) person take a look at how air flows through the house. I’m about to look at triple glaze windows for the southern part of the house (front). Got rid of all the bushes near the front of the house. Going to put whole fan (thermostat control) and  solar air vents . Put more ceiling fans in the house to more the air around better.  Just some suggestions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I have a house in the UK.   It’s in the southern part of the country (where > Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire come close to one another).   It is heated > using Oil (I’m off gas mains) which also provides my hot water.   The boiler > is only abut 5 years old.   I have a South West facing roof face. > I’m beginning to think about retirement, at the moment, I still have a > salary to help me fund "improvements".   We’ve installed double glazing and > are in the process of arranging to improve the insulation.   My thoughts are > now turning to other ways of trying to minimise my dependence on oil and to > try and keep my bills at a reasonable level (assuming the price of oil will > remain relatively high).   Whilst I’m not planning to spend money for the > sake of it, I’m not necessarily looking at this on a payback basis. > My initial thinking said "Solar Heating".   Well, I immediately ran into a > flat plate/evacuated tube debate which I’m beginning to get the hang of but > if anyone would like to explain it to me in words of one syllable (or point > me at a web site that does) I’d be grateful.   Oh, and I failed initially to > realise the difference between PV and heating! > I’ve also come across Heat Pumps which I recognise are more expensive and > can require quite a large area in which to lay the field (although you can > drill down).   I may have the space for a field but I suspect not quite > enough.   Heat pumps have the added attrraction of appearing to offer the > opportunity to generate both heat and cooling (although you can’t transmit > cool air using a radiator based system so there’s more cost, I assume).   I > know this is a solar group but if anyone can point me at another single > syllable web site where I can enhance my understanding I’d be grateful. > And if there are any books I should read…..

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Do some  looking at  solar setup that follows the sun as it goes across > the sky – i.e tracking system for solar since you don’t have a pure > southern roof ) and radiant heat for the floors ( there are radiant > system that can retrofit a older home without tearing up the floor to > lay concrete or new floor boards ).  What have you done to windows > facing southwest (front of house ?). Have a  HVAC (heating and cooling > specialist ) person take a look at how air flows through the house. I’m > about to look at triple glaze windows for the southern part of the house > (front). Got rid of all the bushes near the front of the house. Going to > put whole fan (thermostat control) and  solar air vents . Put more > ceiling fans in the house to more the air around better.  Just some > suggestions. > I have a house in the UK.   It’s in the southern part of the country (where > Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire come close to one another).   It is heated > using Oil (I’m off gas mains) which also provides my hot water.   The boiler > is only abut 5 years old.   I have a South West facing roof face. > I’m beginning to think about retirement, at the moment, I still have a > salary to help me fund "improvements".   We’ve installed double glazing and > are in the process of arranging to improve the insulation.   My thoughts are > now turning to other ways of trying to minimise my dependence on oil and to > try and keep my bills at a reasonable level (assuming the price of oil will > remain relatively high).   Whilst I’m not planning to spend money for the > sake of it, I’m not necessarily looking at this on a payback basis. > My initial thinking said "Solar Heating".   Well, I immediately ran into a > flat plate/evacuated tube debate which I’m beginning to get the hang of but > if anyone would like to explain it to me in words of one syllable (or point > me at a web site that does) I’d be grateful.   Oh, and I failed initially to > realise the difference between PV and heating! > I’ve also come across Heat Pumps which I recognise are more expensive and > can require quite a large area in which to lay the field (although you can > drill down).   I may have the space for a field but I suspect not quite > enough.   Heat pumps have the added attrraction of appearing to offer the > opportunity to generate both heat and cooling (although you can’t transmit > cool air using a radiator based system so there’s more cost, I assume).   I > know this is a solar group but if anyone can point me at another single > syllable web site where I can enhance my understanding I’d be grateful. > And if there are any books I should read…..

There’s also a type of heat pump that extracts heat from the surrounding, outside, air. This is called an Air to Water Heat Pump and operates precisely the opposite as a normal air conditioning (AC) unit. The part that extracts the heat from the outside air is not very large, but does contain one or more fans. On modern machines these are very, very quiet. This would overcome any land space problems you might have. As the ambient air temperature in Southern England is usually above ground temperature such a unit has the potential to be more efficient as well, but check this just to be sure. If you have underfloor heating then the heat pump output will be very well matched to this – if not, then it may be necessary to oversize the radiators as the water temperature from the heatpump is usually in the range of 35-45 degree Celcius. Any solar panels you add for heating water can be used to heat your domestic hot water supply during the warmer months of the year when  the heat pump would not be in operation. Bear in mind that heat pumps are expensive and that you will be tied to the grid, replacing oil for electricity the cost of which you do not control either. Best wishes, Mike

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have a house in the UK.   It’s in the southern part of the country (where >Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire come close to one another).   It is heated >using Oil (I’m off gas mains) which also provides my hot water.   The boiler >is only abut 5 years old.   I have a South West facing roof face. >I’m beginning to think about retirement, at the moment, I still have a >salary to help me fund "improvements".   We’ve installed double glazing and >are in the process of arranging to improve the insulation.   My thoughts are >now turning to other ways of trying to minimise my dependence on oil and to >try and keep my bills at a reasonable level (assuming the price of oil will >remain relatively high).   Whilst I’m not planning to spend money for the >sake of it, I’m not necessarily looking at this on a payback basis. >My initial thinking said "Solar Heating".   Well, I immediately ran into a >flat plate/evacuated tube debate which I’m beginning to get the hang of but >if anyone would like to explain it to me in words of one syllable (or point >me at a web site that does) I’d be grateful.   Oh, and I failed initially to >realise the difference between PV and heating! >I’ve also come across Heat Pumps which I recognise are more expensive and >can require quite a large area in which to lay the field (although you can >drill down).   I may have the space for a field but I suspect not quite >enough.   Heat pumps have the added attrraction of appearing to offer the >opportunity to generate both heat and cooling (although you can’t transmit >cool air using a radiator based system so there’s more cost, I assume).   I >know this is a solar group but if anyone can point me at another single >syllable web site where I can enhance my understanding I’d be grateful. >And if there are any books I should read…..

You may find this web site of interest:  http://www.navitron.org.uk/ — Mr X

Response:

The navitron website is www.navitron.org.uk Air source heat pumps are not very efficient. In theory they ought to be, but the problem lies in the rate of heat transfer from the air heat exchanger. This bottleneck causes condensation and then ice to form on the heatexchanger. The ice acts as an insulator, causing the heatpump to work harder, causing more ice etc. The COP (coefficient of performance) in practice is much lower than with a ground source heat pump for this reason. COPs indicate the amount of heat produced from a given amount of electricity input. Typically GSHPs provide COPs of 4-6, whereas air source is probably nearer 2-3 depending on weather conditions. Ivan Navitron

Response:

>The navitron website is www.navitron.org.uk >Air source heat pumps are not very efficient. In theory they ought to >be, but the problem lies in the rate of heat transfer from the air heat >exchanger. This bottleneck causes condensation and then ice to form on >the heatexchanger. The ice acts as an insulator, causing the heatpump >to work harder, causing more ice etc.

Usually the heat pump goes into a defrost cycle to get rid of the ice. I wonder if water would be a good way of defrosting it, the water only needs to be 1 or 2C, this could be achieved by pumping it through a ground loop, pond or low grade solar panel and storing it in a tank. Assuming water at 0C is not too good for defrosting, anyone know how much ice can be thawed by a cubic metre of water at 3C? cheers, Pete.

Response:

>>Air source heat pumps are not very efficient…

… 300%? >… the problem lies in the rate of heat transfer from the air heat >exchanger. This bottleneck causes condensation and then ice to form on >the heatexchanger. The ice acts as an insulator, causing the heatpump >to work harder, causing more ice etc. >Usually the heat pump goes into a defrost cycle to get rid of the ice.

Running the outdoor fan without the heaters might be more efficient. >I wonder if water would be a good way of defrosting it…

Sounds messier and more complicated. >Assuming water at 0C is not too good for defrosting, anyone know how >much ice can be thawed by a cubic metre of water at 3C?

… 144 Btu can melt a pound of ice, so a pound of water cooling 5.4 F (3 C) can melt 0.0375 pounds of ice, ie 27.7 times less. Then again, http://www.metoffice.com/climate/uk/2004/annual/averages1.html says the average annual UK air temp (close to the water temp) is 9.5 C. Nick

Response:

Question:

I have a house in the UK.   It’s in the southern part of the country (where Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire come close to one another).   It is heated using Oil (I’m off gas mains) which also provides my hot water.   The boiler is only abut 5 years old.   I have a South West facing roof face. I’m beginning to think about retirement, at the moment, I still have a salary to help me fund "improvements".   We’ve installed double glazing and are in the process of arranging to improve the insulation.   My thoughts are now turning to other ways of trying to minimise my dependence on oil and to try and keep my bills at a reasonable level (assuming the price of oil will remain relatively high).   Whilst I’m not planning to spend money for the sake of it, I’m not necessarily looking at this on a payback basis. My initial thinking said "Solar Heating".   Well, I immediately ran into a flat plate/evacuated tube debate which I’m beginning to get the hang of but if anyone would like to explain it to me in words of one syllable (or point me at a web site that does) I’d be grateful.   Oh, and I failed initially to realise the difference between PV and heating! I’ve also come across Heat Pumps which I recognise are more expensive and can require quite a large area in which to lay the field (although you can drill down).   I may have the space for a field but I suspect not quite enough.   Heat pumps have the added attrraction of appearing to offer the opportunity to generate both heat and cooling (although you can’t transmit cool air using a radiator based system so there’s more cost, I assume).   I know this is a solar group but if anyone can point me at another single syllable web site where I can enhance my understanding I’d be grateful. And if there are any books I should read…..

Response:

Do some  looking at  solar setup that follows the sun as it goes across the sky – i.e tracking system for solar since you don’t have a pure southern roof ) and radiant heat for the floors ( there are radiant system that can retrofit a older home without tearing up the floor to lay concrete or new floor boards ).  What have you done to windows facing southwest (front of house ?). Have a  HVAC (heating and cooling specialist ) person take a look at how air flows through the house. I’m about to look at triple glaze windows for the southern part of the house (front). Got rid of all the bushes near the front of the house. Going to put whole fan (thermostat control) and  solar air vents . Put more ceiling fans in the house to more the air around better.  Just some suggestions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I have a house in the UK.   It’s in the southern part of the country (where > Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire come close to one another).   It is heated > using Oil (I’m off gas mains) which also provides my hot water.   The boiler > is only abut 5 years old.   I have a South West facing roof face. > I’m beginning to think about retirement, at the moment, I still have a > salary to help me fund "improvements".   We’ve installed double glazing and > are in the process of arranging to improve the insulation.   My thoughts are > now turning to other ways of trying to minimise my dependence on oil and to > try and keep my bills at a reasonable level (assuming the price of oil will > remain relatively high).   Whilst I’m not planning to spend money for the > sake of it, I’m not necessarily looking at this on a payback basis. > My initial thinking said "Solar Heating".   Well, I immediately ran into a > flat plate/evacuated tube debate which I’m beginning to get the hang of but > if anyone would like to explain it to me in words of one syllable (or point > me at a web site that does) I’d be grateful.   Oh, and I failed initially to > realise the difference between PV and heating! > I’ve also come across Heat Pumps which I recognise are more expensive and > can require quite a large area in which to lay the field (although you can > drill down).   I may have the space for a field but I suspect not quite > enough.   Heat pumps have the added attrraction of appearing to offer the > opportunity to generate both heat and cooling (although you can’t transmit > cool air using a radiator based system so there’s more cost, I assume).   I > know this is a solar group but if anyone can point me at another single > syllable web site where I can enhance my understanding I’d be grateful. > And if there are any books I should read…..

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Do some  looking at  solar setup that follows the sun as it goes across > the sky – i.e tracking system for solar since you don’t have a pure > southern roof ) and radiant heat for the floors ( there are radiant > system that can retrofit a older home without tearing up the floor to > lay concrete or new floor boards ).  What have you done to windows > facing southwest (front of house ?). Have a  HVAC (heating and cooling > specialist ) person take a look at how air flows through the house. I’m > about to look at triple glaze windows for the southern part of the house > (front). Got rid of all the bushes near the front of the house. Going to > put whole fan (thermostat control) and  solar air vents . Put more > ceiling fans in the house to more the air around better.  Just some > suggestions. > I have a house in the UK.   It’s in the southern part of the country (where > Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire come close to one another).   It is heated > using Oil (I’m off gas mains) which also provides my hot water.   The boiler > is only abut 5 years old.   I have a South West facing roof face. > I’m beginning to think about retirement, at the moment, I still have a > salary to help me fund "improvements".   We’ve installed double glazing and > are in the process of arranging to improve the insulation.   My thoughts are > now turning to other ways of trying to minimise my dependence on oil and to > try and keep my bills at a reasonable level (assuming the price of oil will > remain relatively high).   Whilst I’m not planning to spend money for the > sake of it, I’m not necessarily looking at this on a payback basis. > My initial thinking said "Solar Heating".   Well, I immediately ran into a > flat plate/evacuated tube debate which I’m beginning to get the hang of but > if anyone would like to explain it to me in words of one syllable (or point > me at a web site that does) I’d be grateful.   Oh, and I failed initially to > realise the difference between PV and heating! > I’ve also come across Heat Pumps which I recognise are more expensive and > can require quite a large area in which to lay the field (although you can > drill down).   I may have the space for a field but I suspect not quite > enough.   Heat pumps have the added attrraction of appearing to offer the > opportunity to generate both heat and cooling (although you can’t transmit > cool air using a radiator based system so there’s more cost, I assume).   I > know this is a solar group but if anyone can point me at another single > syllable web site where I can enhance my understanding I’d be grateful. > And if there are any books I should read…..

There’s also a type of heat pump that extracts heat from the surrounding, outside, air. This is called an Air to Water Heat Pump and operates precisely the opposite as a normal air conditioning (AC) unit. The part that extracts the heat from the outside air is not very large, but does contain one or more fans. On modern machines these are very, very quiet. This would overcome any land space problems you might have. As the ambient air temperature in Southern England is usually above ground temperature such a unit has the potential to be more efficient as well, but check this just to be sure. If you have underfloor heating then the heat pump output will be very well matched to this – if not, then it may be necessary to oversize the radiators as the water temperature from the heatpump is usually in the range of 35-45 degree Celcius. Any solar panels you add for heating water can be used to heat your domestic hot water supply during the warmer months of the year when  the heat pump would not be in operation. Bear in mind that heat pumps are expensive and that you will be tied to the grid, replacing oil for electricity the cost of which you do not control either. Best wishes, Mike

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have a house in the UK.   It’s in the southern part of the country (where >Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire come close to one another).   It is heated >using Oil (I’m off gas mains) which also provides my hot water.   The boiler >is only abut 5 years old.   I have a South West facing roof face. >I’m beginning to think about retirement, at the moment, I still have a >salary to help me fund "improvements".   We’ve installed double glazing and >are in the process of arranging to improve the insulation.   My thoughts are >now turning to other ways of trying to minimise my dependence on oil and to >try and keep my bills at a reasonable level (assuming the price of oil will >remain relatively high).   Whilst I’m not planning to spend money for the >sake of it, I’m not necessarily looking at this on a payback basis. >My initial thinking said "Solar Heating".   Well, I immediately ran into a >flat plate/evacuated tube debate which I’m beginning to get the hang of but >if anyone would like to explain it to me in words of one syllable (or point >me at a web site that does) I’d be grateful.   Oh, and I failed initially to >realise the difference between PV and heating! >I’ve also come across Heat Pumps which I recognise are more expensive and >can require quite a large area in which to lay the field (although you can >drill down).   I may have the space for a field but I suspect not quite >enough.   Heat pumps have the added attrraction of appearing to offer the >opportunity to generate both heat and cooling (although you can’t transmit >cool air using a radiator based system so there’s more cost, I assume).   I >know this is a solar group but if anyone can point me at another single >syllable web site where I can enhance my understanding I’d be grateful. >And if there are any books I should read…..

You may find this web site of interest:  http://www.navitron.org.uk/ — Mr X

Response:

The navitron website is www.navitron.org.uk Air source heat pumps are not very efficient. In theory they ought to be, but the problem lies in the rate of heat transfer from the air heat exchanger. This bottleneck causes condensation and then ice to form on the heatexchanger. The ice acts as an insulator, causing the heatpump to work harder, causing more ice etc. The COP (coefficient of performance) in practice is much lower than with a ground source heat pump for this reason. COPs indicate the amount of heat produced from a given amount of electricity input. Typically GSHPs provide COPs of 4-6, whereas air source is probably nearer 2-3 depending on weather conditions. Ivan Navitron

Response:

>The navitron website is www.navitron.org.uk >Air source heat pumps are not very efficient. In theory they ought to >be, but the problem lies in the rate of heat transfer from the air heat >exchanger. This bottleneck causes condensation and then ice to form on >the heatexchanger. The ice acts as an insulator, causing the heatpump >to work harder, causing more ice etc.

Usually the heat pump goes into a defrost cycle to get rid of the ice. I wonder if water would be a good way of defrosting it, the water only needs to be 1 or 2C, this could be achieved by pumping it through a ground loop, pond or low grade solar panel and storing it in a tank. Assuming water at 0C is not too good for defrosting, anyone know how much ice can be thawed by a cubic metre of water at 3C? cheers, Pete.

Response:

>>Air source heat pumps are not very efficient…

… 300%? >… the problem lies in the rate of heat transfer from the air heat >exchanger. This bottleneck causes condensation and then ice to form on >the heatexchanger. The ice acts as an insulator, causing the heatpump >to work harder, causing more ice etc. >Usually the heat pump goes into a defrost cycle to get rid of the ice.

Running the outdoor fan without the heaters might be more efficient. >I wonder if water would be a good way of defrosting it…

Sounds messier and more complicated. >Assuming water at 0C is not too good for defrosting, anyone know how >much ice can be thawed by a cubic metre of water at 3C?

… 144 Btu can melt a pound of ice, so a pound of water cooling 5.4 F (3 C) can melt 0.0375 pounds of ice, ie 27.7 times less. Then again, http://www.metoffice.com/climate/uk/2004/annual/averages1.html says the average annual UK air temp (close to the water temp) is 9.5 C. Nick

Response:

Question:

Dear group,    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? I would imagine there are some concerns with mold and bacteria that can be worked through. Thanks for the input. I hope this is not too off topic. I figure thermal for the underground wording….and solar to heat or cool it all. Am i close?  :o) THANKS..

Response:

> Dear group, >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? I would imagine > there are some concerns with mold and bacteria that can be worked > through. Thanks for the input. I hope this is not too off topic. I > figure thermal for the underground wording….and solar to heat or cool > it all. Am i close?  :o) THANKS..

These guys claim to have a system that works — I have no idea whether its really any good or not http://mb-soft.com/solar/saving.html — Gary www.BuildItSolar.com "Build It Yourself" Solar Projects —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

>    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling?

I haven’t actually seen it, and it probably isn’t what you are thinking about, but I believe the system described below works, even though it’s a lot of work. We might do something similar with an above-ground system with less work… "Passive Annual Heat Storage," by John Hait The first edition of John Hait’s 152 page out-of-print (?) 1983 "Passive Annual Heat Storage" book references and take offs where Mike Oehler’s "$50 and Up Underground House" book leaves off, thermally-speaking. Hait is/has/had a non-profit organization called the Rocky Mountain Research Center/POBox 4694/Missoula MT 59806, not to be confused with Amory Lovins’ Rocky Mountain Institute. Hait seems less well-funded and sure of himself than Lovins, and less survivalist and outspoken than Oehler. I wonder what he’s doing these days. He studied Mazria’s book and the Underground Space Center’s earth sheltered housing books and built an underground "Geodome" home in Missoula with 48 temp sensors and 5 moisture sensors to try out his ideas. He’s done a lot of good basic thinking. The book has novel and interesting concepts, and some very clear explanations, eg this one on page 83:   Figure 43 shows two types of heat exchangers, parallel flow and counterflow.   In the parallel flow, as the name suggests, the air is moving in the same   direction in both pipes. Heat will pass through the walls of the interior   pipe from the hot air to the cold air. The cold air is warmed up, and the   hot air is cooled off, and their temperatures meet in the middle coming out   the other end, WARM.   The counterflow heat exchanger, on the other hand, has its fluids (gas or   liquid in either or both tubes) traveling in OPPOSITE directions. Once again,   the hot one cools, and the cold one warms up. But, when the cold one reaches   the other end of the pipe it sees, not a warm fluid that has already been   cooled off, but a hot one that hasn’t had a chance to cool yet, and the hot   one sees a cold fluid at its other end… When the fluid which is supplying   heat is HOT, the one receiving heat can get HOT. But if the source fluid   were to lose its temperature in the process, as with the parallel flow heat   exchanger, how could it make the destination fluid anything but WARM?   This way, the HOT ONE comes out COLD, and the COLD ONE comes out HOT. Hait may have been the first person to suggest making earth tubes into counterflow heat exchangers. He goes on to describe The Camel’s Nose a heat exchanger with flow that periodically reverses direction. The book is short on arithmetic: at one point Hait carefully explains how to calculate the area of a circle. On the other hand the book seems full of good physical insights, experience, and numerical clues, like "It takes six months to conduct heat 20 feet through the earth." He says "plain old dirt is the ideal heat storage medium," and suggests covering the dirt around and over an underground house with an insulating "umbrella/watershed" made with several layers of foamboard and plastic film, to keep rain from washing stored heat down and out of the dirt. The umbrella slopes downward to shed water and extends some 20′ outwards from the house, about 2′ underground, and it contains about 4" of foamboard at the thickest point. Deep earth normally has a temperature close to the average annual air temp, but in this case, the house with uninsulated underground walls is used as a central heater to slowly warm ("It takes three years to fully climatize the soil around the home") and bias the earth to a higher temperature (eg from 45 to 68 F) under the umbrella. Passive solar heat is one way to do this, allowing sun to shine into the house through windows ("Whatever you wish the average indoor temperature to be, adjust the inside temperature to be about 3 or 4 F (1.5-2 C) higher in the summertime. The whole structure should swing only about 6 to 8 F (3.3-4.4 C) all year.") Another way is to make use of seasonal air temperature differences. He describes a possible origin of his system:   Baked dry in August… frozen stiff all winter, a Montana sodbuster and his   neighbors battled the elements. They shivered through the frigid northern   winters, gathering buffalo chips for fuel, to ward off the frostbite.   Our field farming friend noticed that the vegetables in his root cellar   never got hot and never got cold. They were always comfortable. He wasn’t!   So he installed a window in this root cellar and moved in.   Within the first year, the unheated indoor temperature rose from its natural   45 F (7 C) to 55 (13 C), all by itself. This drastically reduced the amount   of fuel he needed, but his neighbors just laughed at him and continued   gathering buffalo chips.   This rise in temperature was a surprise improvement, since everyone had   told him that it would always be 45 (7 C) no matter what. Mulling this over   in his mind he tohought: "If I could only raise the termperature another   10 or 15 degrees (6-8 C)… I wouldn’t need any buffalo chips at all."   But how can you intentionally raise the constant temperature that occurs   naturally in the earth? Well, he had already raised that average temperature   about ten degrees by installing the window. He reasoned, "It must be like   raising the natural level of a lake. You let more water in AND less water   out. That’s it!"   He grabbed his hat and dashed into town. Soon he returned with a pickup load   of Styrofoam insulation and several rolls of plastic sheeting. He put the   insulation and plastic over the top of his home, dirt and all, and covered   the whole thing with another layer of earth.   All summer long, the heat which collected inside soaked into the ground to   keep his home cool and comfortable. Just as he had suspected, the newly   insulated earth began warming up from 55 to 65 (13-18 C) and, finally by   fall, all the way up to 71 degrees (22 C.) When cold weather arrived, the   earth remained warm and kept his new earth sheltered abode cozy all winter.   Our subterranean sodbuster was at last _continuously comfortable._ He had   invented PASSIVE ANNUAL HEAT STORAGE!   And his neighbors? Well, times have changed. Now a big monopoly collects   and distributes all the buffalo chips… and goes to the Public Service   Commission each month to ask for a rate hike. Hait says the US R-value of earth is often assumed to be about 0.08 per inch (about R1 per foot) vs 3 to 7 per inch for many commercial insulations. Hence, we have something like an R20 wall with lots of thermal mass (20 Btu/F-ft^3?), if heat has to travel 20′ horizontally before escaping upwards. I guess most people would say it’s easier to build a wall with 6" of fiberglass insulation than to arrange this sort of earth umbrella. We might cover a house with polyethylene film and surround it with a gigantic earth berm, with a ring of tires to make the outer walls steeper, and 2′ of some sort of fluffy compost on top, over plastic film… Hait has an interesting way of providing fresh air and conducting and storing heat in the earth around the house, like this:                       earth     earth     earth     earth                     uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuumbrella           uu        |                     |   upper earth tube uuu         uu           |        house        |                       uu  lower earth tube<–>|                     |                         The lower earth tube slopes up to the house (to make an igloo-like heat trap) and enters the living space at floor level. The upper earth tube enters at ceiling level, and slopes down to exit at the same outdoor level as the lower. If the house becomes slightly warmer than the surrounding earth, outside air naturally enters the lower earth tube and warm air flows out of the upper one. If the house becomes cooler than the surrounding earth, flow reverses. In either case, heat is exchanged between earth tube air and surrounding earth, storing excess house heat in the earth or removing it to heat the house. He suggests eliminating the windows and turning all this upside down, with upward-sloping earth tubes (making a cold trap), to make a permanent cold store in a coldish climate. The book ends with design guidelines: Insulation/watershed umbrella: 1. Extend umbrella out and around the entire home and above also,    if the home is fully earth-sheltered. 2. Extend out 20 feet (6 m) wherever possible. 3. Taper insulation from 4 inches (10 cm) down to one (the first inch    is the most important.) 4. Insulate the backs of retaining walls and other items that will be    backfilled before the main umbrella goes into place. 5. Plastic: (0.006 inch (0.15 mm), largest sheets practical.)    a. 3 layers min.    b. Separate layers with soft insulation or dirt that will drain well.    c. Provide adequate drainage out the end of the umbrella.    d. DO NOT stretch, but allow for settling with folds and slipping overlaps.    e. Lay like shingles.    f. Prevent future ponding after settling by allowing sufficient       drainage angles.    g. Pay particular attention to possible extreme settling and the problems       that might occur given its new confuguration.    h. Make underground gutters to guide water off the front and away from       the building.    i. Cover it with flashing if it exits the ground. Earth Tubes: 1. Size… 4 to 18 inches (4-46 cm) in diameter. 2. Length…60 feet (18 m) min. More like 100-200 ft. 3. Must go downhill from the house at least a foot plus the tube diameter. 4. Must be kept … read more »

Response:

> Dear group, >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? I would imagine > there are some concerns with mold and bacteria that can be worked > through. Thanks for the input. I hope this is not too off topic. I > figure thermal for the underground wording….and solar to heat or cool > it all. Am i close?  :o) THANKS..

I was just thinking about experimenting with something like this, kind of like the forced air solar heater box I’m building now but buried in the ground. I was thinking of using aluminium tubes for good thermal transfer. I did a little bit of searching on the subject and came away a bit dissapointed in that it looked like you’d have to go at least several meters underground to get the cool earth, ideally 5-10m. I thought about sticking some temp data loggers at various depths in the ground and seeing what’s down there. Dave

Response:

>> Dear group, >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? I would imagine > there are some concerns with mold and bacteria that can be worked > through. Thanks for the input. I hope this is not too off topic. I > figure thermal for the underground wording….and solar to heat or cool > it all. Am i close?  :o) THANKS.. >I was just thinking about experimenting with something like this, kind >of like the forced air solar heater box I’m building now but buried in >the ground.

Would this be a solar heater with a glazed enclosure?   >I was thinking of using aluminium tubes for good thermal transfer. >I did a little bit of searching on the subject and came away a bit >dissapointed in that it looked like you’d have to go at least several >meters underground to get the cool earth, ideally 5-10m.

  I ran into the same problem here in Utah, since the best depth for proper cooling was nearly 6 feet deep. My biggest concern is the possibilty of bacterial and microbial growth inside the tubes. I suppose  proper angle for drainage would be a huge help. That condensation can be a killer if it starts producing mold spores and such. Perhaps a system like the one Nick described before this post has merit. I saw that the author was still active in promoting the book Nick mentioned. I noticed the department of energy website said that metallic tubes really didn’t perform that much better over pvc or poly tubes. >I thought about sticking some temp data loggers at various depths in >the ground and seeing what’s down there.

That would be some good info for all…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Dave

Response:

>>I was thinking of using aluminium tubes for good thermal transfer. >I did a little bit of searching on the subject and came away a bit >dissapointed in that it looked like you’d have to go at least several >meters underground to get the cool earth, ideally 5-10m. >   I ran into the same problem here in Utah, since the best depth for > proper cooling was nearly 6 feet deep. My biggest concern is the > possibilty of bacterial and microbial growth inside the tubes. I > suppose  proper angle for drainage would be a huge help. That > condensation can be a killer if it starts producing mold spores and > such.

Perhaps instead of air tubes you could install water pipes and circulate water through the earth. Ground source heat pumps use this method so it’s likely someone in the area knows how to put in these kind of pipes. Inside the home you could use some form of heat exchanger such as they often use in commercial buildings. You’ll still have issues about possible microbial growth but it’ll be limited to the heat exchanger which should be easy enough to clean. Perhaps you could even go a step further. Add foam board insulation along the sides and top of two areas which have these pipes buried. and install swimming pool style solar heater panels. In the winter or at night you can pump through one section to store "cold" and in the summer or days you can pump through the other to store "hot". Anthony

Response:

… >I thought about sticking some temp data loggers at various depths in >the ground and seeing what’s down there. > That would be some good info for all….

Here is a paper I ran across with some measured data on an earth tube installation: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/Earth%20Tubes2003-01-07G… — Gary www.BuildItSolar.com "Build It Yourself" Solar Projects —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? > I haven’t actually seen it, and it probably isn’t what you are thinking > about, but I believe the system described below works, even though it’s > a lot of work. We might do something similar with an above-ground system > with less work… > "Passive Annual Heat Storage," by John Hait > The first edition of John Hait’s 152 page out-of-print (?) 1983 "Passive > Annual Heat Storage" book references and take offs where Mike Oehler’s > "$50 and Up Underground House" book leaves off, thermally-speaking.

Nick, most the books you recommend are over 20 years old and out of print.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? > I haven’t actually seen it, and it probably isn’t what you are thinking > about, but I believe the system described below works, even though it’s > a lot of work. We might do something similar with an above-ground system > with less work… > "Passive Annual Heat Storage," by John Hait > The first edition of John Hait’s 152 page out-of-print (?) 1983 "Passive > Annual Heat Storage" book references and take offs where Mike Oehler’s > "$50 and Up Underground House" book leaves off, thermally-speaking. > Nick, most the books you recommend are over 20 years old and out of print. >

that’s why they invented inter-library loans.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? > I haven’t actually seen it, and it probably isn’t what you are thinking > about, but I believe the system described below works, even though it’s > a lot of work. We might do something similar with an above-ground system > with less work… > "Passive Annual Heat Storage," by John Hait > The first edition of John Hait’s 152 page out-of-print (?) 1983 "Passive > Annual Heat Storage" book references and take offs where Mike Oehler’s > "$50 and Up Underground House" book leaves off, thermally-speaking. > Nick, most the books you recommend are over 20 years old and out of print. >

Available as an E-book: http://tinyurl.com/aqycb

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > > > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > > > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > > > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? > > I haven’t actually seen it, and it probably isn’t what you are thinking > > about, but I believe the system described below works, even though it’s > > a lot of work. We might do something similar with an above-ground system > > with less work… > > "Passive Annual Heat Storage," by John Hait > > The first edition of John Hait’s 152 page out-of-print (?) 1983 "Passive > > Annual Heat Storage" book references and take offs where Mike Oehler’s > > "$50 and Up Underground House" book leaves off, thermally-speaking. > Nick, most the books you recommend are over 20 years old and out of print. > > that’s why they invented inter-library loans.

In "News’s" reality, they don’t have "Libraries" so he can’t actually go pick up a paper copy of anything.  If it isn’t on the LCD, it doesn’t exist…… Me

Response:

>Here is a paper I ran across with some measured data on an earth tube >installation: >http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/Earth%20Tubes2003-01-07G…

Gary,    Thanks for the link. I know this project could provide some valued cool air. It looks like there are some areas i need to look into as far as tube depth and length compared to CFM. The other complication is tying this into existing ducts used for central heating and cooling, and also the idea of isolating it from the central system and creating a new system. Thanks again. I’ll post my progress…. MRusson

Response:

> Dear group, >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? I would imagine > there are some concerns with mold and bacteria that can be worked > through. Thanks for the input. I hope this is not too off topic. I > figure thermal for the underground wording….and solar to heat or cool > it all. Am i close?  :o) THANKS.. > These guys claim to have a system that works — I have no idea whether > its really any good or not > http://mb-soft.com/solar/saving.html

Interesting site.  They have a water based system using the same pipes, I assume low pressure water as they use 4" drain pipes underground,   I find this more appealing than running air through the tube, because of nasty build ups. They also mention to install a  10 foot x 10 foot and 4 foot deep tank under the basement floor, saying this will also do all of your cooling by tapping off this mass of water.  It appears they never thought of getting rid of all the 4" plastic pipes under the garden and installing this tank under the garden.  Much easier to dig open ground rather than the inside of your basement, (building inspector would want to know) unless you don’t have a garden of course. So, a large sunken tank with insulation on all sides except the bottom would do it.  Just pump this water out and run it through an in-line duct heat exchanger.

Response:

>> http://mb-soft.com/solar/saving.html >Interesting site.  They have a water based system using the same pipes, I >assume low pressure water as they use 4" drain pipes underground,   I find >this more appealing than running air through the tube, because of nasty >build ups.

I thought the same thing since domestic water is usually chlorinated, and would retard the growth of little nasties inside an air tube. >They also mention to install a  10 foot x 10 foot and 4 foot deep tank under >the basement floor, saying this will also do all of your cooling by tapping >off this mass of water.  It appears they never thought of getting rid of all >the 4" plastic pipes under the garden and installing this tank under the >garden.  Much easier to dig open ground rather than the inside of your >basement, (building inspector would want to know) unless you don’t have a >garden of course.

The inspectors here would throw up a red flag so fast that it would not be worth it. They would claim "earthquake damage would make your house sink" and all that fun stuff. >So, a large sunken tank with insulation on all sides except the bottom would >do it.  Just pump this water out and run it through an in-line duct heat >exchanger.

My area shows the best cooling at 6 feet down, which would be just as easy as a 4 foot deep hole. I have been needing a good reason to kill off that garden. Perhaps i could convince the wife that this is the way? Could this be a concrete tank lined with EPDM rubber on all sides and insulated on all sides except the bottom? I would think that a tank shaped in a 10×10x6 foot size would be impossible to locate or have made for that matter. If someone could make one, it would most likely cost much  more that several concrete tanks. Would it make any sense to make the top of this tank open for inspection and or cleaning periodically? Just a thought. M Russon

Response:

>>Much easier to dig open >ground rather than the inside of your basement, (building inspector >would want to know) unless you don’t have a garden of course. > The inspectors here would throw up a red flag so fast that it would > not be worth it. They would claim "earthquake damage would make > your house sink" and all that fun stuff.

Life is so much simpler out in the country, in a county with a low population. As long as I’m merely modifying an existing structure, no permits or inspections are required. regards, Joe

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > > > > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > > > > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > > > > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? > > > I haven’t actually seen it, and it probably isn’t what you are thinking > > > about, but I believe the system described below works, even though it’s > > > a lot of work. We might do something similar with an above-ground system > > > with less work… > > > "Passive Annual Heat Storage," by John Hait > > > The first edition of John Hait’s 152 page out-of-print (?) 1983 "Passive > > > Annual Heat Storage" book references and take offs where Mike Oehler’s > > > "$50 and Up Underground House" book leaves off, thermally-speaking. > > Nick, most the books you recommend are over 20 years old and out of print. > > > that’s why they invented inter-library loans. > In "News’s" reality, they don’t have "Libraries" so he can’t actually > go pick up a paper copy of anything.  If it isn’t on the LCD, it doesn’t > exist……

None of Nick’s books are at any local library near to me, and the UKs library service is better than what you have.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > > >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of > Energy > > > > > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > > > > > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or > structure > > > > > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? > > > > I haven’t actually seen it, and it probably isn’t what you are > thinking > > > > about, but I believe the system described below works, even though > it’s > > > > a lot of work. We might do something similar with an above-ground > system > > > > with less work… > > > > "Passive Annual Heat Storage," by John Hait > > > > The first edition of John Hait’s 152 page out-of-print (?) 1983 > "Passive > > > > Annual Heat Storage" book references and take offs where Mike > Oehler’s > > > > "$50 and Up Underground House" book leaves off, thermally-speaking. > > > Nick, most the books you recommend are over 20 years old and out of > print. > > > > > that’s why they invented inter-library loans. > In "News’s" reality, they don’t have "Libraries" so he can’t actually > go pick up a paper copy of anything.  If it isn’t on the LCD, it doesn’t > exist…… > None of Nick’s books are at any local library near to me, and the UKs > library service is better than what you have.

You mean the Brits who have the best of everything don’t have inter-library loan? who wudda thunk.

Response:

Question:

Dear group,    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? I would imagine there are some concerns with mold and bacteria that can be worked through. Thanks for the input. I hope this is not too off topic. I figure thermal for the underground wording….and solar to heat or cool it all. Am i close?  :o) THANKS..

Response:

> Dear group, >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? I would imagine > there are some concerns with mold and bacteria that can be worked > through. Thanks for the input. I hope this is not too off topic. I > figure thermal for the underground wording….and solar to heat or cool > it all. Am i close?  :o) THANKS..

These guys claim to have a system that works — I have no idea whether its really any good or not http://mb-soft.com/solar/saving.html — Gary www.BuildItSolar.com "Build It Yourself" Solar Projects —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

>    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling?

I haven’t actually seen it, and it probably isn’t what you are thinking about, but I believe the system described below works, even though it’s a lot of work. We might do something similar with an above-ground system with less work… "Passive Annual Heat Storage," by John Hait The first edition of John Hait’s 152 page out-of-print (?) 1983 "Passive Annual Heat Storage" book references and take offs where Mike Oehler’s "$50 and Up Underground House" book leaves off, thermally-speaking. Hait is/has/had a non-profit organization called the Rocky Mountain Research Center/POBox 4694/Missoula MT 59806, not to be confused with Amory Lovins’ Rocky Mountain Institute. Hait seems less well-funded and sure of himself than Lovins, and less survivalist and outspoken than Oehler. I wonder what he’s doing these days. He studied Mazria’s book and the Underground Space Center’s earth sheltered housing books and built an underground "Geodome" home in Missoula with 48 temp sensors and 5 moisture sensors to try out his ideas. He’s done a lot of good basic thinking. The book has novel and interesting concepts, and some very clear explanations, eg this one on page 83:   Figure 43 shows two types of heat exchangers, parallel flow and counterflow.   In the parallel flow, as the name suggests, the air is moving in the same   direction in both pipes. Heat will pass through the walls of the interior   pipe from the hot air to the cold air. The cold air is warmed up, and the   hot air is cooled off, and their temperatures meet in the middle coming out   the other end, WARM.   The counterflow heat exchanger, on the other hand, has its fluids (gas or   liquid in either or both tubes) traveling in OPPOSITE directions. Once again,   the hot one cools, and the cold one warms up. But, when the cold one reaches   the other end of the pipe it sees, not a warm fluid that has already been   cooled off, but a hot one that hasn’t had a chance to cool yet, and the hot   one sees a cold fluid at its other end… When the fluid which is supplying   heat is HOT, the one receiving heat can get HOT. But if the source fluid   were to lose its temperature in the process, as with the parallel flow heat   exchanger, how could it make the destination fluid anything but WARM?   This way, the HOT ONE comes out COLD, and the COLD ONE comes out HOT. Hait may have been the first person to suggest making earth tubes into counterflow heat exchangers. He goes on to describe The Camel’s Nose a heat exchanger with flow that periodically reverses direction. The book is short on arithmetic: at one point Hait carefully explains how to calculate the area of a circle. On the other hand the book seems full of good physical insights, experience, and numerical clues, like "It takes six months to conduct heat 20 feet through the earth." He says "plain old dirt is the ideal heat storage medium," and suggests covering the dirt around and over an underground house with an insulating "umbrella/watershed" made with several layers of foamboard and plastic film, to keep rain from washing stored heat down and out of the dirt. The umbrella slopes downward to shed water and extends some 20′ outwards from the house, about 2′ underground, and it contains about 4" of foamboard at the thickest point. Deep earth normally has a temperature close to the average annual air temp, but in this case, the house with uninsulated underground walls is used as a central heater to slowly warm ("It takes three years to fully climatize the soil around the home") and bias the earth to a higher temperature (eg from 45 to 68 F) under the umbrella. Passive solar heat is one way to do this, allowing sun to shine into the house through windows ("Whatever you wish the average indoor temperature to be, adjust the inside temperature to be about 3 or 4 F (1.5-2 C) higher in the summertime. The whole structure should swing only about 6 to 8 F (3.3-4.4 C) all year.") Another way is to make use of seasonal air temperature differences. He describes a possible origin of his system:   Baked dry in August… frozen stiff all winter, a Montana sodbuster and his   neighbors battled the elements. They shivered through the frigid northern   winters, gathering buffalo chips for fuel, to ward off the frostbite.   Our field farming friend noticed that the vegetables in his root cellar   never got hot and never got cold. They were always comfortable. He wasn’t!   So he installed a window in this root cellar and moved in.   Within the first year, the unheated indoor temperature rose from its natural   45 F (7 C) to 55 (13 C), all by itself. This drastically reduced the amount   of fuel he needed, but his neighbors just laughed at him and continued   gathering buffalo chips.   This rise in temperature was a surprise improvement, since everyone had   told him that it would always be 45 (7 C) no matter what. Mulling this over   in his mind he tohought: "If I could only raise the termperature another   10 or 15 degrees (6-8 C)… I wouldn’t need any buffalo chips at all."   But how can you intentionally raise the constant temperature that occurs   naturally in the earth? Well, he had already raised that average temperature   about ten degrees by installing the window. He reasoned, "It must be like   raising the natural level of a lake. You let more water in AND less water   out. That’s it!"   He grabbed his hat and dashed into town. Soon he returned with a pickup load   of Styrofoam insulation and several rolls of plastic sheeting. He put the   insulation and plastic over the top of his home, dirt and all, and covered   the whole thing with another layer of earth.   All summer long, the heat which collected inside soaked into the ground to   keep his home cool and comfortable. Just as he had suspected, the newly   insulated earth began warming up from 55 to 65 (13-18 C) and, finally by   fall, all the way up to 71 degrees (22 C.) When cold weather arrived, the   earth remained warm and kept his new earth sheltered abode cozy all winter.   Our subterranean sodbuster was at last _continuously comfortable._ He had   invented PASSIVE ANNUAL HEAT STORAGE!   And his neighbors? Well, times have changed. Now a big monopoly collects   and distributes all the buffalo chips… and goes to the Public Service   Commission each month to ask for a rate hike. Hait says the US R-value of earth is often assumed to be about 0.08 per inch (about R1 per foot) vs 3 to 7 per inch for many commercial insulations. Hence, we have something like an R20 wall with lots of thermal mass (20 Btu/F-ft^3?), if heat has to travel 20′ horizontally before escaping upwards. I guess most people would say it’s easier to build a wall with 6" of fiberglass insulation than to arrange this sort of earth umbrella. We might cover a house with polyethylene film and surround it with a gigantic earth berm, with a ring of tires to make the outer walls steeper, and 2′ of some sort of fluffy compost on top, over plastic film… Hait has an interesting way of providing fresh air and conducting and storing heat in the earth around the house, like this:                       earth     earth     earth     earth                     uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuumbrella           uu        |                     |   upper earth tube uuu         uu           |        house        |                       uu  lower earth tube<–>|                     |                         The lower earth tube slopes up to the house (to make an igloo-like heat trap) and enters the living space at floor level. The upper earth tube enters at ceiling level, and slopes down to exit at the same outdoor level as the lower. If the house becomes slightly warmer than the surrounding earth, outside air naturally enters the lower earth tube and warm air flows out of the upper one. If the house becomes cooler than the surrounding earth, flow reverses. In either case, heat is exchanged between earth tube air and surrounding earth, storing excess house heat in the earth or removing it to heat the house. He suggests eliminating the windows and turning all this upside down, with upward-sloping earth tubes (making a cold trap), to make a permanent cold store in a coldish climate. The book ends with design guidelines: Insulation/watershed umbrella: 1. Extend umbrella out and around the entire home and above also,    if the home is fully earth-sheltered. 2. Extend out 20 feet (6 m) wherever possible. 3. Taper insulation from 4 inches (10 cm) down to one (the first inch    is the most important.) 4. Insulate the backs of retaining walls and other items that will be    backfilled before the main umbrella goes into place. 5. Plastic: (0.006 inch (0.15 mm), largest sheets practical.)    a. 3 layers min.    b. Separate layers with soft insulation or dirt that will drain well.    c. Provide adequate drainage out the end of the umbrella.    d. DO NOT stretch, but allow for settling with folds and slipping overlaps.    e. Lay like shingles.    f. Prevent future ponding after settling by allowing sufficient       drainage angles.    g. Pay particular attention to possible extreme settling and the problems       that might occur given its new confuguration.    h. Make underground gutters to guide water off the front and away from       the building.    i. Cover it with flashing if it exits the ground. Earth Tubes: 1. Size… 4 to 18 inches (4-46 cm) in diameter. 2. Length…60 feet (18 m) min. More like 100-200 ft. 3. Must go downhill from the house at least a foot plus the tube diameter. 4. Must be kept … read more »

Response:

> Dear group, >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? I would imagine > there are some concerns with mold and bacteria that can be worked > through. Thanks for the input. I hope this is not too off topic. I > figure thermal for the underground wording….and solar to heat or cool > it all. Am i close?  :o) THANKS..

I was just thinking about experimenting with something like this, kind of like the forced air solar heater box I’m building now but buried in the ground. I was thinking of using aluminium tubes for good thermal transfer. I did a little bit of searching on the subject and came away a bit dissapointed in that it looked like you’d have to go at least several meters underground to get the cool earth, ideally 5-10m. I thought about sticking some temp data loggers at various depths in the ground and seeing what’s down there. Dave

Response:

>> Dear group, >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? I would imagine > there are some concerns with mold and bacteria that can be worked > through. Thanks for the input. I hope this is not too off topic. I > figure thermal for the underground wording….and solar to heat or cool > it all. Am i close?  :o) THANKS.. >I was just thinking about experimenting with something like this, kind >of like the forced air solar heater box I’m building now but buried in >the ground.

Would this be a solar heater with a glazed enclosure?   >I was thinking of using aluminium tubes for good thermal transfer. >I did a little bit of searching on the subject and came away a bit >dissapointed in that it looked like you’d have to go at least several >meters underground to get the cool earth, ideally 5-10m.

  I ran into the same problem here in Utah, since the best depth for proper cooling was nearly 6 feet deep. My biggest concern is the possibilty of bacterial and microbial growth inside the tubes. I suppose  proper angle for drainage would be a huge help. That condensation can be a killer if it starts producing mold spores and such. Perhaps a system like the one Nick described before this post has merit. I saw that the author was still active in promoting the book Nick mentioned. I noticed the department of energy website said that metallic tubes really didn’t perform that much better over pvc or poly tubes. >I thought about sticking some temp data loggers at various depths in >the ground and seeing what’s down there.

That would be some good info for all…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Dave

Response:

>>I was thinking of using aluminium tubes for good thermal transfer. >I did a little bit of searching on the subject and came away a bit >dissapointed in that it looked like you’d have to go at least several >meters underground to get the cool earth, ideally 5-10m. >   I ran into the same problem here in Utah, since the best depth for > proper cooling was nearly 6 feet deep. My biggest concern is the > possibilty of bacterial and microbial growth inside the tubes. I > suppose  proper angle for drainage would be a huge help. That > condensation can be a killer if it starts producing mold spores and > such.

Perhaps instead of air tubes you could install water pipes and circulate water through the earth. Ground source heat pumps use this method so it’s likely someone in the area knows how to put in these kind of pipes. Inside the home you could use some form of heat exchanger such as they often use in commercial buildings. You’ll still have issues about possible microbial growth but it’ll be limited to the heat exchanger which should be easy enough to clean. Perhaps you could even go a step further. Add foam board insulation along the sides and top of two areas which have these pipes buried. and install swimming pool style solar heater panels. In the winter or at night you can pump through one section to store "cold" and in the summer or days you can pump through the other to store "hot". Anthony

Response:

… >I thought about sticking some temp data loggers at various depths in >the ground and seeing what’s down there. > That would be some good info for all….

Here is a paper I ran across with some measured data on an earth tube installation: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/Earth%20Tubes2003-01-07G… — Gary www.BuildItSolar.com "Build It Yourself" Solar Projects —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? > I haven’t actually seen it, and it probably isn’t what you are thinking > about, but I believe the system described below works, even though it’s > a lot of work. We might do something similar with an above-ground system > with less work… > "Passive Annual Heat Storage," by John Hait > The first edition of John Hait’s 152 page out-of-print (?) 1983 "Passive > Annual Heat Storage" book references and take offs where Mike Oehler’s > "$50 and Up Underground House" book leaves off, thermally-speaking.

Nick, most the books you recommend are over 20 years old and out of print.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? > I haven’t actually seen it, and it probably isn’t what you are thinking > about, but I believe the system described below works, even though it’s > a lot of work. We might do something similar with an above-ground system > with less work… > "Passive Annual Heat Storage," by John Hait > The first edition of John Hait’s 152 page out-of-print (?) 1983 "Passive > Annual Heat Storage" book references and take offs where Mike Oehler’s > "$50 and Up Underground House" book leaves off, thermally-speaking. > Nick, most the books you recommend are over 20 years old and out of print. >

that’s why they invented inter-library loans.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? > I haven’t actually seen it, and it probably isn’t what you are thinking > about, but I believe the system described below works, even though it’s > a lot of work. We might do something similar with an above-ground system > with less work… > "Passive Annual Heat Storage," by John Hait > The first edition of John Hait’s 152 page out-of-print (?) 1983 "Passive > Annual Heat Storage" book references and take offs where Mike Oehler’s > "$50 and Up Underground House" book leaves off, thermally-speaking. > Nick, most the books you recommend are over 20 years old and out of print. >

Available as an E-book: http://tinyurl.com/aqycb

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > > > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > > > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > > > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? > > I haven’t actually seen it, and it probably isn’t what you are thinking > > about, but I believe the system described below works, even though it’s > > a lot of work. We might do something similar with an above-ground system > > with less work… > > "Passive Annual Heat Storage," by John Hait > > The first edition of John Hait’s 152 page out-of-print (?) 1983 "Passive > > Annual Heat Storage" book references and take offs where Mike Oehler’s > > "$50 and Up Underground House" book leaves off, thermally-speaking. > Nick, most the books you recommend are over 20 years old and out of print. > > that’s why they invented inter-library loans.

In "News’s" reality, they don’t have "Libraries" so he can’t actually go pick up a paper copy of anything.  If it isn’t on the LCD, it doesn’t exist…… Me

Response:

>Here is a paper I ran across with some measured data on an earth tube >installation: >http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Cooling/Earth%20Tubes2003-01-07G…

Gary,    Thanks for the link. I know this project could provide some valued cool air. It looks like there are some areas i need to look into as far as tube depth and length compared to CFM. The other complication is tying this into existing ducts used for central heating and cooling, and also the idea of isolating it from the central system and creating a new system. Thanks again. I’ll post my progress…. MRusson

Response:

> Dear group, >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? I would imagine > there are some concerns with mold and bacteria that can be worked > through. Thanks for the input. I hope this is not too off topic. I > figure thermal for the underground wording….and solar to heat or cool > it all. Am i close?  :o) THANKS.. > These guys claim to have a system that works — I have no idea whether > its really any good or not > http://mb-soft.com/solar/saving.html

Interesting site.  They have a water based system using the same pipes, I assume low pressure water as they use 4" drain pipes underground,   I find this more appealing than running air through the tube, because of nasty build ups. They also mention to install a  10 foot x 10 foot and 4 foot deep tank under the basement floor, saying this will also do all of your cooling by tapping off this mass of water.  It appears they never thought of getting rid of all the 4" plastic pipes under the garden and installing this tank under the garden.  Much easier to dig open ground rather than the inside of your basement, (building inspector would want to know) unless you don’t have a garden of course. So, a large sunken tank with insulation on all sides except the bottom would do it.  Just pump this water out and run it through an in-line duct heat exchanger.

Response:

>> http://mb-soft.com/solar/saving.html >Interesting site.  They have a water based system using the same pipes, I >assume low pressure water as they use 4" drain pipes underground,   I find >this more appealing than running air through the tube, because of nasty >build ups.

I thought the same thing since domestic water is usually chlorinated, and would retard the growth of little nasties inside an air tube. >They also mention to install a  10 foot x 10 foot and 4 foot deep tank under >the basement floor, saying this will also do all of your cooling by tapping >off this mass of water.  It appears they never thought of getting rid of all >the 4" plastic pipes under the garden and installing this tank under the >garden.  Much easier to dig open ground rather than the inside of your >basement, (building inspector would want to know) unless you don’t have a >garden of course.

The inspectors here would throw up a red flag so fast that it would not be worth it. They would claim "earthquake damage would make your house sink" and all that fun stuff. >So, a large sunken tank with insulation on all sides except the bottom would >do it.  Just pump this water out and run it through an in-line duct heat >exchanger.

My area shows the best cooling at 6 feet down, which would be just as easy as a 4 foot deep hole. I have been needing a good reason to kill off that garden. Perhaps i could convince the wife that this is the way? Could this be a concrete tank lined with EPDM rubber on all sides and insulated on all sides except the bottom? I would think that a tank shaped in a 10×10x6 foot size would be impossible to locate or have made for that matter. If someone could make one, it would most likely cost much  more that several concrete tanks. Would it make any sense to make the top of this tank open for inspection and or cleaning periodically? Just a thought. M Russon

Response:

>>Much easier to dig open >ground rather than the inside of your basement, (building inspector >would want to know) unless you don’t have a garden of course. > The inspectors here would throw up a red flag so fast that it would > not be worth it. They would claim "earthquake damage would make > your house sink" and all that fun stuff.

Life is so much simpler out in the country, in a county with a low population. As long as I’m merely modifying an existing structure, no permits or inspections are required. regards, Joe

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of Energy > > > > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > > > > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or structure > > > > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? > > > I haven’t actually seen it, and it probably isn’t what you are thinking > > > about, but I believe the system described below works, even though it’s > > > a lot of work. We might do something similar with an above-ground system > > > with less work… > > > "Passive Annual Heat Storage," by John Hait > > > The first edition of John Hait’s 152 page out-of-print (?) 1983 "Passive > > > Annual Heat Storage" book references and take offs where Mike Oehler’s > > > "$50 and Up Underground House" book leaves off, thermally-speaking. > > Nick, most the books you recommend are over 20 years old and out of print. > > > that’s why they invented inter-library loans. > In "News’s" reality, they don’t have "Libraries" so he can’t actually > go pick up a paper copy of anything.  If it isn’t on the LCD, it doesn’t > exist……

None of Nick’s books are at any local library near to me, and the UKs library service is better than what you have.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > > >    I recently came across an article listed on the Department of > Energy > > > > > website, talking about underground cooling tubes used to cool a > > > > > residence. Has anyone in the group ever seen a residence or > structure > > > > > that used buried tubes to circulate air for cooling? > > > > I haven’t actually seen it, and it probably isn’t what you are > thinking > > > > about, but I believe the system described below works, even though > it’s > > > > a lot of work. We might do something similar with an above-ground > system > > > > with less work… > > > > "Passive Annual Heat Storage," by John Hait > > > > The first edition of John Hait’s 152 page out-of-print (?) 1983 > "Passive > > > > Annual Heat Storage" book references and take offs where Mike > Oehler’s > > > > "$50 and Up Underground House" book leaves off, thermally-speaking. > > > Nick, most the books you recommend are over 20 years old and out of > print. > > > > > that’s why they invented inter-library loans. > In "News’s" reality, they don’t have "Libraries" so he can’t actually > go pick up a paper copy of anything.  If it isn’t on the LCD, it doesn’t > exist…… > None of Nick’s books are at any local library near to me, and the UKs > library service is better than what you have.

You mean the Brits who have the best of everything don’t have inter-library loan? who wudda thunk.

Response:

Question:

Forgive this newbie.  I have read through many posts on this board and am slowly bringing myself up to speed.  We are located in upstate NY near Binghamton, where winters are long and sunny days are few outside for several months. Two years ago we added a picturesque sunroom (manufactured by Patio Enclosures) onto our house on the east side.  The dimensions are roughly 12′ H x 13′ W and the roof is a gabled style.  Therefore the sunroom’s west border interfaces with our house. The east and south sides of the sunroom are about 95% glass.  The north side is roughly 65% glass.  A large sliding glass door provides entry to the sunroom from the house. There are some fairly tall trees on the southeast side of the property however there are at least 5-6 hours of strong sun during mid morning through mid afternoon through the south side of the sunroom. I remember from 2 years ago when we met with the sunroom installer, that the glass was somehow insulated or tempered so as not to be unbearably hot during the warm weather months. The downside is it doesn’t heat up enough to provide a lot of heat to the house even on a partly sunny March day. I keep a therometer in the sunroom, but I shield it from the sun to accurately measure the ambient sunroom temperature. On a partly sunny day like today, with outdoor temps between 35F-39F, the sunroom only warms to about 68F.  And this is only for a few hours. The surrounding hours are generally 58F-64F. With the gas heat turned off in the house, I usually open the doors to the sunroom, then use a medium sized fan in the doorway to blow the somewhat warmer air from the sunroom into the downstairs living space of our house.  This usually helps raise the living room temp by 3F-5F, and the living room is on the west side of the house separated from the sunroom by a dining room. Does anyone have any ideas how a newbie like myself could make the sunroom a more efficient heater?  I had an idea to take 1" or 2" thick foam insulation sheets and place them over the north side sunroom windows/walls during the cool months.  This is based on the theory that I am losing a lot of heat through the North windows as heat comes in from the south side 12′-13′ away. I could potentially cover the East side too once the sun wraps around to the south side of the sunroom. Provided I had the sheets handy, I would think this would take no more than 5-10 minutes of effort each day.  But I somehow doubt this will be enough. I don’t feel I am adequately taking advantage of this room as a sunspace.  If you can help a clueless newbie, I would appreciate it. If necessary I can provide pictures hosted on my webspace. Thank you! Dan Padavona

Response:

>…We are located in upstate NY near Binghamton, where winters are long…

NREL says 430 Btu/ft^2 falls on the ground and 610 falls on a south wall on an average 26.5 F December day with a 30.3 high. >Two years ago we added a picturesque sunroom (manufactured by Patio >Enclosures) onto our house on the east side.  The dimensions are >roughly 12′ H x 13′ W and the roof is a gabled style.  Therefore the >sunroom’s west border interfaces with our house.

Sounds like you have about 8′x13′= 104 ft^2 of south glazing. A square foot of R2 glazing with 80% solar transmission and good insulation behind it might gain 0.8×610 = 488 Btu/day and lose 6h(80-28)1ft^2/R2 = 156, for a net gain of 332, or 104×332 = 34.5K/day. Can you add on another 13′ of glazing? Or a quarter-cylindrical 12′x24′ single poly-film-over-double- curved 1×3 greenhouse with a foamboard north wall behind another layer of poly film? That might collect 0.8×12x24(610+430) = 239.6K Btu and lose about 6h(80-28)/12×24/R2 = 44.9K, for a net gain of 194.7K/day, or more, with some white rocks or a shallow pond to the south. >The east and south sides of the sunroom are about 95% glass.  The north >side is roughly 65% glass.  A large sliding glass door provides entry >to the sunroom from the house.

You might cover the outside with foil-faced foamboard in wintertime. >There are some fairly tall trees on the southeast side of the property >however there are at least 5-6 hours of strong sun during mid morning >through mid afternoon through the south side of the sunroom. >I remember from 2 years ago when we met with the sunroom installer, >that the glass was somehow insulated or tempered so as not to be >unbearably hot during the warm weather months. The downside is it >doesn’t heat up enough to provide a lot of heat to the house even on a >partly sunny March day.

Replace it with vinyl or more transmissive glass? >I keep a therometer in the sunroom, but I shield it from the sun to >accurately measure the ambient sunroom temperature. On a partly sunny >day like today, with outdoor temps between 35F-39F, the sunroom only >warms to about 68F.  And this is only for a few hours. The surrounding >hours are generally 58F-64F.

Sounds warm at night, as if the sunroom is storing heat, which tends to make it constantly lukewarm vs hot during the day and cold at night, which lowers its solar collection efficiency. You might reduce thermal mass in the sunroom… cover the concrete slab with a few inches of shredded oak mulch or foamboard and plywood and dark carpet? >With the gas heat turned off in the house, I usually open the doors to >the sunroom, then use a medium sized fan in the doorway to blow the >somewhat warmer air from the sunroom into the downstairs living space >of our house.  This usually helps raise the living room temp by 3F-5F, >and the living room is on the west side of the house separated from the >sunroom by a dining room.

You might move the fan to the gable peak and make a hole in the wall near the floor next to the sliding glass doors, with one-way plastic film dampers over both holes, and add a differential thermostat, or remove the fan >Does anyone have any ideas how a newbie like myself could make the >sunroom a more efficient heater?  I had an idea to take 1" or 2" thick >foam insulation sheets and place them over the north side sunroom >windows/walls during the cool months.

Sounds good. >I could potentially cover the East side too once the sun wraps around…

Or make a foamboard wall inside the east wall with one-way plastic film dampers at top and bottom. What’s the ceiling like? Transparent? Insulated? Overhead sun can be as important as south wall sun in cloudy climates. Nick

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->…We are located in upstate NY near Binghamton, where winters are long… > NREL says 430 Btu/ft^2 falls on the ground and 610 falls on a south wall > on an average 26.5 F December day with a 30.3 high. >Two years ago we added a picturesque sunroom (manufactured by Patio >Enclosures) onto our house on the east side.  The dimensions are >roughly 12′ H x 13′ W and the roof is a gabled style.  Therefore the >sunroom’s west border interfaces with our house. > Sounds like you have about 8′x13′= 104 ft^2 of south glazing. A square > foot of R2 glazing with 80% solar transmission and good insulation behind > it might gain 0.8×610 = 488 Btu/day and lose 6h(80-28)1ft^2/R2 = 156, for > a net gain of 332, or 104×332 = 34.5K/day. Can you add on another 13′ of > glazing? Or a quarter-cylindrical 12′x24′ single poly-film-over-double- > curved 1×3 greenhouse with a foamboard north wall behind another layer of > poly film? That might collect 0.8×12x24(610+430) = 239.6K Btu and lose > about 6h(80-28)/12×24/R2 = 44.9K, for a net gain of 194.7K/day, or more, > with some white rocks or a shallow pond to the south. >The east and south sides of the sunroom are about 95% glass.  The north >side is roughly 65% glass.  A large sliding glass door provides entry >to the sunroom from the house. > You might cover the outside with foil-faced foamboard in wintertime. >There are some fairly tall trees on the southeast side of the property >however there are at least 5-6 hours of strong sun during mid morning >through mid afternoon through the south side of the sunroom. >I remember from 2 years ago when we met with the sunroom installer, >that the glass was somehow insulated or tempered so as not to be >unbearably hot during the warm weather months. The downside is it >doesn’t heat up enough to provide a lot of heat to the house even on a >partly sunny March day. > Replace it with vinyl or more transmissive glass? >I keep a therometer in the sunroom, but I shield it from the sun to >accurately measure the ambient sunroom temperature. On a partly sunny >day like today, with outdoor temps between 35F-39F, the sunroom only >warms to about 68F.  And this is only for a few hours. The surrounding >hours are generally 58F-64F. > Sounds warm at night, as if the sunroom is storing heat, which tends > to make it constantly lukewarm vs hot during the day and cold at night, > which lowers its solar collection efficiency. You might reduce thermal > mass in the sunroom… cover the concrete slab with a few inches of > shredded oak mulch or foamboard and plywood and dark carpet? >With the gas heat turned off in the house, I usually open the doors to >the sunroom, then use a medium sized fan in the doorway to blow the >somewhat warmer air from the sunroom into the downstairs living space >of our house.  This usually helps raise the living room temp by 3F-5F, >and the living room is on the west side of the house separated from the >sunroom by a dining room. > You might move the fan to the gable peak and make a hole in the wall near > the floor next to the sliding glass doors, with one-way plastic film dampers > over both holes, and add a differential thermostat, or remove the fan >Does anyone have any ideas how a newbie like myself could make the >sunroom a more efficient heater?  I had an idea to take 1" or 2" thick >foam insulation sheets and place them over the north side sunroom >windows/walls during the cool months. > Sounds good. >I could potentially cover the East side too once the sun wraps around… > Or make a foamboard wall inside the east wall with one-way plastic film > dampers at top and bottom. What’s the ceiling like? Transparent? Insulated? > Overhead sun can be as important as south wall sun in cloudy climates. > Nick

Do any sunroom manufacturers may then so sturdy insulated panels can be clipped on the windows for winter?

Response:

> Or make a foamboard wall inside the east wall with one-way plastic film > dampers at top and bottom. What’s the ceiling like? Transparent? Insulated? > Overhead sun can be as important as south wall sun in cloudy climates. > Nick

Thank you Nick. The sunroom roof is a gabled style.  4 windows are part of the roof, with 2 sloping down to the south side and the other 2 sloping down to the north.  Overall I estimate 40% of the ceiling is glazing.  The ceiling is not insulated.  It is one of the standard prefab enclosures which the manufacturer can snap together on property in roughly 4 or 5 days. I can provide my own pictures if necessary.  Here is  a picture from their website which is very similar to the product I own. http://www.patioenclosures.com/products/sunrooms/allview.asp

Response:

My original post: >I keep a therometer in the sunroom, but I shield it from the sun to >accurately measure the ambient sunroom temperature. On a partly sunny >day like today, with outdoor temps between 35F-39F, the sunroom only >warms to about 68F.  And this is only for a few hours. The surrounding >hours are generally 58F-64F.

Nick replied: >Sounds warm at night, as if the sunroom is storing heat, which tends >to make it constantly lukewarm vs hot during the day and cold at night, >which lowers its solar collection efficiency. You might reduce thermal >mass in the sunroom… cover the concrete slab with a few inches of >shredded oak mulch or foa>mboard and plywood and dark carpet?

I confusingly described the sunroom temps.  My bad. What I mean is, on a partly sunny day in the mid 30s in March, the sunroom will peak at about 68F and stay there for 1-2 hours.  For the 2 hours preceding the peak an for an additional 2 hours, the sunroom is about 58F-64F. Overnight is gets very cold since there is zero insulation.  I have observed over and over again for 2 years the minimum observed temperature in the sunroom is about 6F-10Fabove the outdoor ambient temperature.  So if we cool down to 15F at night, expect the sunroom to start the morning at 22F or so, then quickly begin to rebound.  What I look to do is move my plants into the sunroom in mid April, as the extra several degrees usually allows me to avoid frost for the rest of the season. I am completely new to the subject, and obviously you are one of the most knowledgeable group posters.  However it seems certain to me there is essentially no net gain over 24 hours in the sunroom due to lack of insulation?  Perhaps if I could slow  down the heat loss at night I could create a net gain from a day to night cycle?

Response:

>The sunroom roof is a gabled style.  4 windows are part of the roof, >with 2 sloping down to the south side and the other 2 sloping down to >the north.  Overall I estimate 40% of the ceiling is glazing.  The >ceiling is not insulated…

So it would help to insulate the non-window part of the ceiling, or remove all the windows and panels and cover the whole ceiling frame with poly film on the outside, with 80%-black horizontal shadecloth below to absorb sun and transfer it to air moving up through the shadecloth and in through your new gable vent to the house. >Overnight is gets very cold since there is zero insulation… >if we cool down to 15F at night, expect the sunroom to start >the morning at 22F or so… it seems certain to me there is >essentially no net gain over 24 hours in the sunroom due to >lack of insulation? Perhaps if I could slow down the heat loss >at night I could create a net gain from a day to night cycle?

You can slow down the heat loss at night by sucking warm air out of the sunroom during the day and letting it get cold at night… Nick

Response:

> Forgive this newbie.  I have read through many posts on this board and > am slowly bringing myself up to speed.  We are located in upstate NY > near Binghamton, where winters are long and sunny days are few outside > for several months.

Uh… Binghamton is ‘downstate’ for some of us  Care for some ‘lake-effect’ from Oswego or Pulaski ?? The first thing is just how much you are willing to spend/do.  You could probably get quite an improvement in the *daytime* temperatures by simply fitting some 1/2 inch or 1" foam board on the north-facing glass.  This would be pretty easy to implement and you could take them out and store them somewhere in the summer.  So you still get full view /enjoyment in the summer time. I can’t tell from their web site, but insulating on the roof whereever there isn’t glass would also be smart. And for that part of the day when the temperature is warm enough, opening the door with a portable fan is fine.  But you have to be there to open and close it.  If it clouds over in the afternoon and you forget to shut the door, you could end up trying to heat your sunroom from the house and that would be a *losing* situation. Frankly, I’d try that for a season and see how things go.  If Binghamton is anything like Syracuse/Oswego, there just aren’t *that* many days in the dead of winter where you get many hours of sun.  So the ‘manual’ method may be the most effective. After a season, you will have an idea of how often it warms up enough to produce usable heat.  Then you can decide if automating the process is the next step.  After all, you might not want to chop up the walls and start installing all sorts of ventilation and stuff if it only gives you a small return.  Perhaps better to just enjoy the room once it gets warmer (say, July 3 thru July 5th, what we in Oswego call ’spring’ and ‘fall’ since ‘winter’ seems to last from July 6th to July 2nd  ( we really *did* have a snowbank in town that didn’t melt until July in 2003) But it sounds like it gets too cold in the middle of winter for keeping plants all year round.  I could see how it allows you to get an early start in the spring though.  The same foamboard panels on the north glass would help to slow heat loss at night.  But it’s still a bit of a gamble of exactly when it will be ‘frost-free’ overnight.  Unless you want to put up some more foamboard on the remaining glass each night (or at least particularly cold nights). daestrom

Response:

Oh yes, Lake Effect Country!  You might be interested to know I am a weather forecaster down here in Binghamton.  The good folks at the Buffalo office handle your county, but we take over at the Onondaga/Oneida borders. Thanks for the comments Daestrom.  I agree using some 1/2" or 1" foam board is the way to go.  I was considering heading over to the home improvement stores today, then I decided against it so I could think about exactly how I wished to attach the foam boards.  I don’t want to muck up the glass too bad.  Would you build them like plugs (in between boards) or would you just try to attach them to the glass with some type of adhesive? BTW, did anyone ever buy up the rights to the Renaissance Fair in Sterling?  I saw the darn thing was for sale on Ebay last fall! DP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Forgive this newbie.  I have read through many posts on this board and > am slowly bringing myself up to speed.  We are located in upstate NY > near Binghamton, where winters are long and sunny days are few outside > for several months. > Uh… Binghamton is ‘downstate’ for some of us  Care for some > ‘lake-effect’ from Oswego or Pulaski ?? > The first thing is just how much you are willing to spend/do.  You could > probably get quite an improvement in the *daytime* temperatures by simply > fitting some 1/2 inch or 1" foam board on the north-facing glass. This > would be pretty easy to implement and you could take them out and store them > somewhere in the summer.  So you still get full view /enjoyment in the > summer time. > I can’t tell from their web site, but insulating on the roof whereever there > isn’t glass would also be smart. > And for that part of the day when the temperature is warm enough, opening > the door with a portable fan is fine.  But you have to be there to open and > close it.  If it clouds over in the afternoon and you forget to shut the > door, you could end up trying to heat your sunroom from the house and that > would be a *losing* situation. > Frankly, I’d try that for a season and see how things go.  If Binghamton is > anything like Syracuse/Oswego, there just aren’t *that* many days in the > dead of winter where you get many hours of sun.  So the ‘manual’ method may > be the most effective. > After a season, you will have an idea of how often it warms up enough to > produce usable heat.  Then you can decide if automating the process is the > next step.  After all, you might not want to chop up the walls and start > installing all sorts of ventilation and stuff if it only gives you a small > return.  Perhaps better to just enjoy the room once it gets warmer (say, > July 3 thru July 5th, what we in Oswego call ’spring’ and ‘fall’ since > ‘winter’ seems to last from July 6th to July 2nd  ( we really *did* have > a snowbank in town that didn’t melt until July in 2003) > But it sounds like it gets too cold in the middle of winter for keeping > plants all year round.  I could see how it allows you to get an early start > in the spring though.  The same foamboard panels on the north glass would > help to slow heat loss at night.  But it’s still a bit of a gamble of > exactly when it will be ‘frost-free’ overnight.  Unless you want to put up > some more foamboard on the remaining glass each night (or at least > particularly cold nights). > daestrom

Response:

> Oh yes, Lake Effect Country!  You might be interested to know I am a > weather forecaster down here in Binghamton.  The good folks at the > Buffalo office handle your county, but we take over at the > Onondaga/Oneida borders. > Thanks for the comments Daestrom.  I agree using some 1/2" or 1" foam > board is the way to go.  I was considering heading over to the home > improvement stores today, then I decided against it so I could think > about exactly how I wished to attach the foam boards.  I don’t want to > muck up the glass too bad.  Would you build them like plugs (in between > boards) or would you just try to attach them to the glass with some > type of adhesive?

Well, personally, I would want something were I can remove them in summertime and not have to clean up a bunch of ‘muck’. If you cut them as plugs, you still have a thin strip between them.  Even so, that’s what I would do.  Makes for simple install and clean removal. Perhaps just a thin turnstyle type of bar on each mullion near the top and bottom would be enough to hold them in place.  Then you just do a quick quarter turn to take them down in the summer. Of course if you don’t want the perennial ‘under-construction’ look, you might try some kind of covering so the neighbors don’t have to stare at raw ‘blue-board’ for months on end.  (would latex paint stick very well to foamboard??  anyone??). > BTW, did anyone ever buy up the rights to the Renaissance Fair in > Sterling?  I saw the darn thing was for sale on Ebay last fall!

I hadn’t heard anything.  I think it’s probably just going to fade away. Shame too, could use a good ‘wench auction’ daestrom

Response:

Question:

Forgive this newbie.  I have read through many posts on this board and am slowly bringing myself up to speed.  We are located in upstate NY near Binghamton, where winters are long and sunny days are few outside for several months. Two years ago we added a picturesque sunroom (manufactured by Patio Enclosures) onto our house on the east side.  The dimensions are roughly 12′ H x 13′ W and the roof is a gabled style.  Therefore the sunroom’s west border interfaces with our house. The east and south sides of the sunroom are about 95% glass.  The north side is roughly 65% glass.  A large sliding glass door provides entry to the sunroom from the house. There are some fairly tall trees on the southeast side of the property however there are at least 5-6 hours of strong sun during mid morning through mid afternoon through the south side of the sunroom. I remember from 2 years ago when we met with the sunroom installer, that the glass was somehow insulated or tempered so as not to be unbearably hot during the warm weather months. The downside is it doesn’t heat up enough to provide a lot of heat to the house even on a partly sunny March day. I keep a therometer in the sunroom, but I shield it from the sun to accurately measure the ambient sunroom temperature. On a partly sunny day like today, with outdoor temps between 35F-39F, the sunroom only warms to about 68F.  And this is only for a few hours. The surrounding hours are generally 58F-64F. With the gas heat turned off in the house, I usually open the doors to the sunroom, then use a medium sized fan in the doorway to blow the somewhat warmer air from the sunroom into the downstairs living space of our house.  This usually helps raise the living room temp by 3F-5F, and the living room is on the west side of the house separated from the sunroom by a dining room. Does anyone have any ideas how a newbie like myself could make the sunroom a more efficient heater?  I had an idea to take 1" or 2" thick foam insulation sheets and place them over the north side sunroom windows/walls during the cool months.  This is based on the theory that I am losing a lot of heat through the North windows as heat comes in from the south side 12′-13′ away. I could potentially cover the East side too once the sun wraps around to the south side of the sunroom. Provided I had the sheets handy, I would think this would take no more than 5-10 minutes of effort each day.  But I somehow doubt this will be enough. I don’t feel I am adequately taking advantage of this room as a sunspace.  If you can help a clueless newbie, I would appreciate it. If necessary I can provide pictures hosted on my webspace. Thank you! Dan Padavona

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>…We are located in upstate NY near Binghamton, where winters are long…

NREL says 430 Btu/ft^2 falls on the ground and 610 falls on a south wall on an average 26.5 F December day with a 30.3 high. >Two years ago we added a picturesque sunroom (manufactured by Patio >Enclosures) onto our house on the east side.  The dimensions are >roughly 12′ H x 13′ W and the roof is a gabled style.  Therefore the >sunroom’s west border interfaces with our house.

Sounds like you have about 8′x13′= 104 ft^2 of south glazing. A square foot of R2 glazing with 80% solar transmission and good insulation behind it might gain 0.8×610 = 488 Btu/day and lose 6h(80-28)1ft^2/R2 = 156, for a net gain of 332, or 104×332 = 34.5K/day. Can you add on another 13′ of glazing? Or a quarter-cylindrical 12′x24′ single poly-film-over-double- curved 1×3 greenhouse with a foamboard north wall behind another layer of poly film? That might collect 0.8×12x24(610+430) = 239.6K Btu and lose about 6h(80-28)/12×24/R2 = 44.9K, for a net gain of 194.7K/day, or more, with some white rocks or a shallow pond to the south. >The east and south sides of the sunroom are about 95% glass.  The north >side is roughly 65% glass.  A large sliding glass door provides entry >to the sunroom from the house.

You might cover the outside with foil-faced foamboard in wintertime. >There are some fairly tall trees on the southeast side of the property >however there are at least 5-6 hours of strong sun during mid morning >through mid afternoon through the south side of the sunroom. >I remember from 2 years ago when we met with the sunroom installer, >that the glass was somehow insulated or tempered so as not to be >unbearably hot during the warm weather months. The downside is it >doesn’t heat up enough to provide a lot of heat to the house even on a >partly sunny March day.

Replace it with vinyl or more transmissive glass? >I keep a therometer in the sunroom, but I shield it from the sun to >accurately measure the ambient sunroom temperature. On a partly sunny >day like today, with outdoor temps between 35F-39F, the sunroom only >warms to about 68F.  And this is only for a few hours. The surrounding >hours are generally 58F-64F.

Sounds warm at night, as if the sunroom is storing heat, which tends to make it constantly lukewarm vs hot during the day and cold at night, which lowers its solar collection efficiency. You might reduce thermal mass in the sunroom… cover the concrete slab with a few inches of shredded oak mulch or foamboard and plywood and dark carpet? >With the gas heat turned off in the house, I usually open the doors to >the sunroom, then use a medium sized fan in the doorway to blow the >somewhat warmer air from the sunroom into the downstairs living space >of our house.  This usually helps raise the living room temp by 3F-5F, >and the living room is on the west side of the house separated from the >sunroom by a dining room.

You might move the fan to the gable peak and make a hole in the wall near the floor next to the sliding glass doors, with one-way plastic film dampers over both holes, and add a differential thermostat, or remove the fan >Does anyone have any ideas how a newbie like myself could make the >sunroom a more efficient heater?  I had an idea to take 1" or 2" thick >foam insulation sheets and place them over the north side sunroom >windows/walls during the cool months.

Sounds good. >I could potentially cover the East side too once the sun wraps around…

Or make a foamboard wall inside the east wall with one-way plastic film dampers at top and bottom. What’s the ceiling like? Transparent? Insulated? Overhead sun can be as important as south wall sun in cloudy climates. Nick

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->…We are located in upstate NY near Binghamton, where winters are long… > NREL says 430 Btu/ft^2 falls on the ground and 610 falls on a south wall > on an average 26.5 F December day with a 30.3 high. >Two years ago we added a picturesque sunroom (manufactured by Patio >Enclosures) onto our house on the east side.  The dimensions are >roughly 12′ H x 13′ W and the roof is a gabled style.  Therefore the >sunroom’s west border interfaces with our house. > Sounds like you have about 8′x13′= 104 ft^2 of south glazing. A square > foot of R2 glazing with 80% solar transmission and good insulation behind > it might gain 0.8×610 = 488 Btu/day and lose 6h(80-28)1ft^2/R2 = 156, for > a net gain of 332, or 104×332 = 34.5K/day. Can you add on another 13′ of > glazing? Or a quarter-cylindrical 12′x24′ single poly-film-over-double- > curved 1×3 greenhouse with a foamboard north wall behind another layer of > poly film? That might collect 0.8×12x24(610+430) = 239.6K Btu and lose > about 6h(80-28)/12×24/R2 = 44.9K, for a net gain of 194.7K/day, or more, > with some white rocks or a shallow pond to the south. >The east and south sides of the sunroom are about 95% glass.  The north >side is roughly 65% glass.  A large sliding glass door provides entry >to the sunroom from the house. > You might cover the outside with foil-faced foamboard in wintertime. >There are some fairly tall trees on the southeast side of the property >however there are at least 5-6 hours of strong sun during mid morning >through mid afternoon through the south side of the sunroom. >I remember from 2 years ago when we met with the sunroom installer, >that the glass was somehow insulated or tempered so as not to be >unbearably hot during the warm weather months. The downside is it >doesn’t heat up enough to provide a lot of heat to the house even on a >partly sunny March day. > Replace it with vinyl or more transmissive glass? >I keep a therometer in the sunroom, but I shield it from the sun to >accurately measure the ambient sunroom temperature. On a partly sunny >day like today, with outdoor temps between 35F-39F, the sunroom only >warms to about 68F.  And this is only for a few hours. The surrounding >hours are generally 58F-64F. > Sounds warm at night, as if the sunroom is storing heat, which tends > to make it constantly lukewarm vs hot during the day and cold at night, > which lowers its solar collection efficiency. You might reduce thermal > mass in the sunroom… cover the concrete slab with a few inches of > shredded oak mulch or foamboard and plywood and dark carpet? >With the gas heat turned off in the house, I usually open the doors to >the sunroom, then use a medium sized fan in the doorway to blow the >somewhat warmer air from the sunroom into the downstairs living space >of our house.  This usually helps raise the living room temp by 3F-5F, >and the living room is on the west side of the house separated from the >sunroom by a dining room. > You might move the fan to the gable peak and make a hole in the wall near > the floor next to the sliding glass doors, with one-way plastic film dampers > over both holes, and add a differential thermostat, or remove the fan >Does anyone have any ideas how a newbie like myself could make the >sunroom a more efficient heater?  I had an idea to take 1" or 2" thick >foam insulation sheets and place them over the north side sunroom >windows/walls during the cool months. > Sounds good. >I could potentially cover the East side too once the sun wraps around… > Or make a foamboard wall inside the east wall with one-way plastic film > dampers at top and bottom. What’s the ceiling like? Transparent? Insulated? > Overhead sun can be as important as south wall sun in cloudy climates. > Nick

Do any sunroom manufacturers may then so sturdy insulated panels can be clipped on the windows for winter?

Response:

> Or make a foamboard wall inside the east wall with one-way plastic film > dampers at top and bottom. What’s the ceiling like? Transparent? Insulated? > Overhead sun can be as important as south wall sun in cloudy climates. > Nick

Thank you Nick. The sunroom roof is a gabled style.  4 windows are part of the roof, with 2 sloping down to the south side and the other 2 sloping down to the north.  Overall I estimate 40% of the ceiling is glazing.  The ceiling is not insulated.  It is one of the standard prefab enclosures which the manufacturer can snap together on property in roughly 4 or 5 days. I can provide my own pictures if necessary.  Here is  a picture from their website which is very similar to the product I own. http://www.patioenclosures.com/products/sunrooms/allview.asp

Response:

My original post: >I keep a therometer in the sunroom, but I shield it from the sun to >accurately measure the ambient sunroom temperature. On a partly sunny >day like today, with outdoor temps between 35F-39F, the sunroom only >warms to about 68F.  And this is only for a few hours. The surrounding >hours are generally 58F-64F.

Nick replied: >Sounds warm at night, as if the sunroom is storing heat, which tends >to make it constantly lukewarm vs hot during the day and cold at night, >which lowers its solar collection efficiency. You might reduce thermal >mass in the sunroom… cover the concrete slab with a few inches of >shredded oak mulch or foa>mboard and plywood and dark carpet?

I confusingly described the sunroom temps.  My bad. What I mean is, on a partly sunny day in the mid 30s in March, the sunroom will peak at about 68F and stay there for 1-2 hours.  For the 2 hours preceding the peak an for an additional 2 hours, the sunroom is about 58F-64F. Overnight is gets very cold since there is zero insulation.  I have observed over and over again for 2 years the minimum observed temperature in the sunroom is about 6F-10Fabove the outdoor ambient temperature.  So if we cool down to 15F at night, expect the sunroom to start the morning at 22F or so, then quickly begin to rebound.  What I look to do is move my plants into the sunroom in mid April, as the extra several degrees usually allows me to avoid frost for the rest of the season. I am completely new to the subject, and obviously you are one of the most knowledgeable group posters.  However it seems certain to me there is essentially no net gain over 24 hours in the sunroom due to lack of insulation?  Perhaps if I could slow  down the heat loss at night I could create a net gain from a day to night cycle?

Response:

>The sunroom roof is a gabled style.  4 windows are part of the roof, >with 2 sloping down to the south side and the other 2 sloping down to >the north.  Overall I estimate 40% of the ceiling is glazing.  The >ceiling is not insulated…

So it would help to insulate the non-window part of the ceiling, or remove all the windows and panels and cover the whole ceiling frame with poly film on the outside, with 80%-black horizontal shadecloth below to absorb sun and transfer it to air moving up through the shadecloth and in through your new gable vent to the house. >Overnight is gets very cold since there is zero insulation… >if we cool down to 15F at night, expect the sunroom to start >the morning at 22F or so… it seems certain to me there is >essentially no net gain over 24 hours in the sunroom due to >lack of insulation? Perhaps if I could slow down the heat loss >at night I could create a net gain from a day to night cycle?

You can slow down the heat loss at night by sucking warm air out of the sunroom during the day and letting it get cold at night… Nick

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> Forgive this newbie.  I have read through many posts on this board and > am slowly bringing myself up to speed.  We are located in upstate NY > near Binghamton, where winters are long and sunny days are few outside > for several months.

Uh… Binghamton is ‘downstate’ for some of us  Care for some ‘lake-effect’ from Oswego or Pulaski ?? The first thing is just how much you are willing to spend/do.  You could probably get quite an improvement in the *daytime* temperatures by simply fitting some 1/2 inch or 1" foam board on the north-facing glass.  This would be pretty easy to implement and you could take them out and store them somewhere in the summer.  So you still get full view /enjoyment in the summer time. I can’t tell from their web site, but insulating on the roof whereever there isn’t glass would also be smart. And for that part of the day when the temperature is warm enough, opening the door with a portable fan is fine.  But you have to be there to open and close it.  If it clouds over in the afternoon and you forget to shut the door, you could end up trying to heat your sunroom from the house and that would be a *losing* situation. Frankly, I’d try that for a season and see how things go.  If Binghamton is anything like Syracuse/Oswego, there just aren’t *that* many days in the dead of winter where you get many hours of sun.  So the ‘manual’ method may be the most effective. After a season, you will have an idea of how often it warms up enough to produce usable heat.  Then you can decide if automating the process is the next step.  After all, you might not want to chop up the walls and start installing all sorts of ventilation and stuff if it only gives you a small return.  Perhaps better to just enjoy the room once it gets warmer (say, July 3 thru July 5th, what we in Oswego call ’spring’ and ‘fall’ since ‘winter’ seems to last from July 6th to July 2nd  ( we really *did* have a snowbank in town that didn’t melt until July in 2003) But it sounds like it gets too cold in the middle of winter for keeping plants all year round.  I could see how it allows you to get an early start in the spring though.  The same foamboard panels on the north glass would help to slow heat loss at night.  But it’s still a bit of a gamble of exactly when it will be ‘frost-free’ overnight.  Unless you want to put up some more foamboard on the remaining glass each night (or at least particularly cold nights). daestrom

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Oh yes, Lake Effect Country!  You might be interested to know I am a weather forecaster down here in Binghamton.  The good folks at the Buffalo office handle your county, but we take over at the Onondaga/Oneida borders. Thanks for the comments Daestrom.  I agree using some 1/2" or 1" foam board is the way to go.  I was considering heading over to the home improvement stores today, then I decided against it so I could think about exactly how I wished to attach the foam boards.  I don’t want to muck up the glass too bad.  Would you build them like plugs (in between boards) or would you just try to attach them to the glass with some type of adhesive? BTW, did anyone ever buy up the rights to the Renaissance Fair in Sterling?  I saw the darn thing was for sale on Ebay last fall! DP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Forgive this newbie.  I have read through many posts on this board and > am slowly bringing myself up to speed.  We are located in upstate NY > near Binghamton, where winters are long and sunny days are few outside > for several months. > Uh… Binghamton is ‘downstate’ for some of us  Care for some > ‘lake-effect’ from Oswego or Pulaski ?? > The first thing is just how much you are willing to spend/do.  You could > probably get quite an improvement in the *daytime* temperatures by simply > fitting some 1/2 inch or 1" foam board on the north-facing glass. This > would be pretty easy to implement and you could take them out and store them > somewhere in the summer.  So you still get full view /enjoyment in the > summer time. > I can’t tell from their web site, but insulating on the roof whereever there > isn’t glass would also be smart. > And for that part of the day when the temperature is warm enough, opening > the door with a portable fan is fine.  But you have to be there to open and > close it.  If it clouds over in the afternoon and you forget to shut the > door, you could end up trying to heat your sunroom from the house and that > would be a *losing* situation. > Frankly, I’d try that for a season and see how things go.  If Binghamton is > anything like Syracuse/Oswego, there just aren’t *that* many days in the > dead of winter where you get many hours of sun.  So the ‘manual’ method may > be the most effective. > After a season, you will have an idea of how often it warms up enough to > produce usable heat.  Then you can decide if automating the process is the > next step.  After all, you might not want to chop up the walls and start > installing all sorts of ventilation and stuff if it only gives you a small > return.  Perhaps better to just enjoy the room once it gets warmer (say, > July 3 thru July 5th, what we in Oswego call ’spring’ and ‘fall’ since > ‘winter’ seems to last from July 6th to July 2nd  ( we really *did* have > a snowbank in town that didn’t melt until July in 2003) > But it sounds like it gets too cold in the middle of winter for keeping > plants all year round.  I could see how it allows you to get an early start > in the spring though.  The same foamboard panels on the north glass would > help to slow heat loss at night.  But it’s still a bit of a gamble of > exactly when it will be ‘frost-free’ overnight.  Unless you want to put up > some more foamboard on the remaining glass each night (or at least > particularly cold nights). > daestrom

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> Oh yes, Lake Effect Country!  You might be interested to know I am a > weather forecaster down here in Binghamton.  The good folks at the > Buffalo office handle your county, but we take over at the > Onondaga/Oneida borders. > Thanks for the comments Daestrom.  I agree using some 1/2" or 1" foam > board is the way to go.  I was considering heading over to the home > improvement stores today, then I decided against it so I could think > about exactly how I wished to attach the foam boards.  I don’t want to > muck up the glass too bad.  Would you build them like plugs (in between > boards) or would you just try to attach them to the glass with some > type of adhesive?

Well, personally, I would want something were I can remove them in summertime and not have to clean up a bunch of ‘muck’. If you cut them as plugs, you still have a thin strip between them.  Even so, that’s what I would do.  Makes for simple install and clean removal. Perhaps just a thin turnstyle type of bar on each mullion near the top and bottom would be enough to hold them in place.  Then you just do a quick quarter turn to take them down in the summer. Of course if you don’t want the perennial ‘under-construction’ look, you might try some kind of covering so the neighbors don’t have to stare at raw ‘blue-board’ for months on end.  (would latex paint stick very well to foamboard??  anyone??). > BTW, did anyone ever buy up the rights to the Renaissance Fair in > Sterling?  I saw the darn thing was for sale on Ebay last fall!

I hadn’t heard anything.  I think it’s probably just going to fade away. Shame too, could use a good ‘wench auction’ daestrom

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