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Question:

: >  What about all the worries of having to refine the crude oil into gasoline. : > What sort of efficiency do we get there? : Very high. A refinery produces very little heat, and most rubbish is actually : losses are trivial ( less than 0.5% from evaporation, tank cleaning etc ) :                  Bruce Hamilton Bruce has replied to this question in his usual superior style. All I have is a sort-of rule of the thumb. Oil goes in and by volume 80% comes out as gasoline, but with a 10% higher heating value. The rest, tars, oil and chemicals is marketed separately. Ernst    

Response:

Well it seem about time to fill in some more of the picture and I hope to keep it simple so I’ll start with a simple text. Engineering Thermodynamics with Applications by David Burghardt Harper & Row   ISBN 0-06-041041-8  1978 And now a simple idea. Everyone wants a level start so let’s start with the energy source most common to both ICE, EV, and Hybrid vehicles. Sweet crude oil imported from the middle east. For electric fans start with storing the oil, burning it in a steam powerplant such as the one at Morrow Bay California. Go thru distribution to the home a converter to charge your EV and don’t believe that the people on the central coast do not have to live with some of your net pollution. Oh yes, don’t forget the annual tax tacked on to the registration to pay the road tax you would have paid with a gasoline purchase. For the ICE click store your oil, use a refinery to make gasoline, ship the gas to stations and on. Both sides pay for all the maintenance and employees required from the time the ship hits port till your pet vehicle has completed 100,000 miles traveling 15 miles twice a day commuting back and forth in commuter traffic. Just for fun start at 280 and 101 in San Jose and go up towards San Francisco on 101. Now that’s about as equal as I think is useful. Now from my reading I see about 44.6% efficiency from the powerplant direct from sweet crude and 47% for an ideal otto cycle with 26.7% cited as real due to irreversible losses (say 33% now as this is back a few years). I don’t have an efficiency for the refinery. To go on I see a natural gas fired gas turbine combined cycle (uses the heat to generate power with steam) that one reaches 60.2% and didn’t need middle east oil. On another note I’ll be interested to see how the pilot powerplant Santa Clara California is building turn’s out (fuel cell). Do you believe that the ICE is so efficient that you’ll un-plug your house and start using a small generator cus them engineers in the power company don’t know nuttin? Before the EV crowd jumps with glee, I in no way see the present power grid system being capable of powering so many EVs in the near future. The only distribution system in place for vehicles can’t even handle gaseous fuels. The current system only handles liquid fuels. It doesn’t have to be gasoline. Diesel, alcohol, kerosene …. liquid. Oh, and on days traffic is light the commute hits 70+. Next problem to consider what will people be willing to use. I’ve had the answer to traffic and passenger miles per gallon for years. It’s a 1967 Honda CL-90. Yes its an ICE but two gallons keeps it happy all week with light weight and a small efficient engine. Oh, so everyone doesn’t want to ride a little motorcycle. Yeah, a 427 AC Cobra is more fun and a 700 series more class. Maybe if it was a 200cc water cooled two-stroke using an orbital engine variant. Should scream and be light on pollution. No? Did I tell you **!#!!! and idiots will kill themselves within a week driving a bike like they do a car? How about steam? low pressure combustion, very efficient. You do need special permits, training, and certifications of the high pressure system by a PE(guess that’s not for everyone). Still not convinced? Well that’s the problem. Problem is people are demanding laws be passed that everyone get stuck even if they walk to work and drive only to church on Sunday (and they dearly love their Model A). How about this: Everyone gets a set amount of energy and pounds of pollution per year. Drive an efficient car with three passengers in it and you have enough saved up to go racing on the weekends. Spend it all in the BMW commuting to San Francisco from Sacramento and you won’t have enough for that riding lawn mower in the garage. It comes down to the totals. Not that with electric you pollute near someone in Utah instead of LA where you live. What’s required. Letters stating the ZEV (zero emission vehicle) is a political construct and working out a useful method to reduce overall pollution and reduce energy use is still required. Improvements in ICE, EV, and Hybrids. Fuel cells, batteries, Stirling cycle generators… This is a group that can work on it. Let’s here what you’re doing to generate energy more efficiently with less net pollution or use less energy net. Anyone working on a portion of the Space Station power system? The EV people can use high frequency / lightweight power ideas. Passive solar on your house? P.S. I’d also like to see 5 mph bumpers, air bags, and that silly diagonal shoulder strap go away. Add a roll bar, shoulder harness, and a helmet if you want. They work and do not compromise the vehicle. For those of