Consumer Homes.

Question:

Well you can probably guess my question! Do you need planning permission to stick a few solar panels ontop of your roof if you live in a populated residential area in the UK?  I do not live within any National Park boundaries if that makes any difference? If the answer to the above question is yes, that you do need planning permission, I just wondered if you would still need planning permission for the solar panels that look just exactly like house roof tiles?  you would not notice much of a difference if the panels just looked like part of your roof would you?  The large panels would just look like a sky light anyway, wouldn’t they? I can understand planning permission for a wind generator on top of your house or sticking up on a pole in your garden, but a flat solar panel on your roof?  Surely you don’t need permission do you? How about in the USA? or anywhere else in the World? OZ? NZ?  Do you guys need permission for panels? I also just wondered if the government in this country offers any kind of grant if you are buying renewable non-polluting energy for your home?  I know that they offer a small grant for people buying the hybrid car the Honda Insight that runs on Petrol and Electric Power and gives out less emmissions, so do they offer it for home power? What about in other countries? Cheers for any help John

Response:

We have a strong solar access law in California that was passed about 15 years ago before PV was being installed in urban areas. This year PV was added to the law. This means that restrictive CC&Rs (Codes, Convenants and Restrictions) are illegal. (As an historical note, as late as the 1960s, some communities in southen California prohibited home ownership to blacks, asians, hispanics, jews, etc. I mention this because some Americans think we have less freedom than in the past. The truth is more people in the world are free now than ever before. Be sure to vote.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Well you can probably guess my question! > Do you need planning permission to stick a few solar panels ontop of > your roof if you live in a populated residential area in the UK?  I do > not live within any National Park boundaries if that makes any > difference? > If the answer to the above question is yes, that you do need planning > permission, I just wondered if you would still need planning > permission for the solar panels that look just exactly like house roof > tiles?  you would not notice much of a difference if the panels just > looked like part of your roof would you?  The large panels would just > look like a sky light anyway, wouldn’t they? > I can understand planning permission for a wind generator on top of > your house or sticking up on a pole in your garden, but a flat solar > panel on your roof?  Surely you don’t need permission do you? > How about in the USA? or anywhere else in the World? OZ? NZ?  Do you > guys need permission for panels? > I also just wondered if the government in this country offers any kind > of grant if you are buying renewable non-polluting energy for your > home?  I know that they offer a small grant for people buying the > hybrid car the Honda Insight that runs on Petrol and Electric Power > and gives out less emmissions, so do they offer it for home power? > What about in other countries? > Cheers for any help > John

Response:

On the other hand Joel, there are plenty of communities/sub-divisions/etc that have your CC&Rs that prohibit any outside add on structures such as antennas, TV receiving dishes, storage sheds,parked cars in the driveway, swing sets, roof mounted objects and so forth, ( I am sure that a PV array would fall into one of the above mentioned catagories) …. A person really has to check their own CC&R rules.  We are not as free to do what we want, on our own land, as you think.  Our next door neighbors decide what they want to look at in our backyards. (Not in my backyard is a common theme here) … Now if you move out, way out, like Steve and Wayne, and buy a chuck of land (80+ acres), then probably there are fewer CC&R’s to contend with and yes, PV arrays or anything else are acceptable.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We have a strong solar access law in California that was passed about 15 > years ago before PV was being installed in urban areas. This year PV was > added to the law. This means that restrictive CC&Rs (Codes, Convenants and > Restrictions) are illegal. > (As an historical note, as late as the 1960s, some communities in southen > California prohibited home ownership to blacks, asians, hispanics, jews, > etc. I mention this because some Americans think we have less freedom than > in the past. The truth is more people in the world are free now than ever > before. Be sure to vote.) > Well you can probably guess my question! > Do you need planning permission to stick a few solar panels ontop of > your roof if you live in a populated residential area in the UK?  I do > not live within any National Park boundaries if that makes any > difference? > If the answer to the above question is yes, that you do need planning > permission, I just wondered if you would still need planning > permission for the solar panels that look just exactly like house roof > tiles?  you would not notice much of a difference if the panels just > looked like part of your roof would you?  The large panels would just > look like a sky light anyway, wouldn’t they? > I can understand planning permission for a wind generator on top of > your house or sticking up on a pole in your garden, but a flat solar > panel on your roof?  Surely you don’t need permission do you? > How about in the USA? or anywhere else in the World? OZ? NZ?  Do you > guys need permission for panels? > I also just wondered if the government in this country offers any kind > of grant if you are buying renewable non-polluting energy for your > home?  I know that they offer a small grant for people buying the > hybrid car the Honda Insight that runs on Petrol and Electric Power > and gives out less emmissions, so do they offer it for home power? > What about in other countries? > Cheers for any help > John

Response:

> On the other hand Joel, there are plenty of communities/sub-divisions/etc > that have your CC&Rs that prohibit any outside add on structures such as > antennas, TV receiving dishes, storage sheds,parked cars in the driveway, > swing sets, roof mounted objects and so forth, ( I am sure that a PV array > would fall into one of the above mentioned catagories) …. A person really > has to check their own CC&R rules.  We are not as free to do what we want, > on our own land, as you think.  Our next door neighbors decide what they > want to look at in our backyards. (Not in my backyard is a common theme > here) … Now if you move out, way out, like Steve and Wayne, and buy a > chuck of land (80+ acres), then probably there are fewer CC&R’s to contend > with and yes, PV arrays or anything else are acceptable.

You are free to buy or not buy in a regulated subdivision. As a former board member of an association at such a place, I get disgusted at those who complain about CC&Rs. Don’t like the restrictions? Don’t buy there. Didn’t read them, or don’t want to abide by them? Then kick yourself in the ass and move, but quit whining. BTW, some restrictions aren’t enforceable, and it’s not a secret. Wayne

Response:

Any and all CC&Rs that restrict solar water heater and PV panels are illegal in California. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > On the other hand Joel, there are plenty of communities/sub-divisions/etc > that have your CC&Rs that prohibit any outside add on structures such as > antennas, TV receiving dishes, storage sheds,parked cars in the driveway, > swing sets, roof mounted objects and so forth, ( I am sure that a PV array > would fall into one of the above mentioned catagories) …. A person really > has to check their own CC&R rules.  We are not as free to do what we want, > on our own land, as you think.  Our next door neighbors decide what they > want to look at in our backyards. (Not in my backyard is a common theme > here) … Now if you move out, way out, like Steve and Wayne, and buy a > chuck of land (80+ acres), then probably there are fewer CC&R’s to contend > with and yes, PV arrays or anything else are acceptable. > We have a strong solar access law in California that was passed about 15 > years ago before PV was being installed in urban areas. This year PV was > added to the law. This means that restrictive CC&Rs (Codes, Convenants and > Restrictions) are illegal. > (As an historical note, as late as the 1960s, some communities in southen > California prohibited home ownership to blacks, asians, hispanics, jews, > etc. I mention this because some Americans think we have less freedom than > in the past. The truth is more people in the world are free now than ever > before. Be sure to vote.) > > Well you can probably guess my question! > > Do you need planning permission to stick a few solar panels ontop of > > your roof if you live in a populated residential area in the UK?  I do > > not live within any National Park boundaries if that makes any > > difference? > > If the answer to the above question is yes, that you do need planning > > permission, I just wondered if you would still need planning > > permission for the solar panels that look just exactly like house roof > > tiles?  you would not notice much of a difference if the panels just > > looked like part of your roof would you?  The large panels would just > > look like a sky light anyway, wouldn’t they? > > I can understand planning permission for a wind generator on top of > > your house or sticking up on a pole in your garden, but a flat solar > > panel on your roof?  Surely you don’t need permission do you? > > How about in the USA? or anywhere else in the World? OZ? NZ?  Do you > > guys need permission for panels? > > I also just wondered if the government in this country offers any kind > > of grant if you are buying renewable non-polluting energy for your > > home?  I know that they offer a small grant for people buying the > > hybrid car the Honda Insight that runs on Petrol and Electric Power > > and gives out less emmissions, so do they offer it for home power? > > What about in other countries? > > Cheers for any help > > John

Response:

You made that point (California)  in your first posting.. I was referring to the rest of the world, or more particular the rest of the US.

> Any and all CC&Rs that restrict solar water heater and PV panels are illegal in > California. > On the other hand Joel, there are plenty of

communities/sub-divisions/etc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> that have your CC&Rs that prohibit any outside add on structures such as > antennas, TV receiving dishes, storage sheds,parked cars in the driveway, > swing sets, roof mounted objects and so forth, ( I am sure that a PV array > would fall into one of the above mentioned catagories) …. A person really > has to check their own CC&R rules.  We are not as free to do what we want, > on our own land, as you think.  Our next door neighbors decide what they > want to look at in our backyards. (Not in my backyard is a common theme > here) … Now if you move out, way out, like Steve and Wayne, and buy a > chuck of land (80+ acres), then probably there are fewer CC&R’s to contend > with and yes, PV arrays or anything else are acceptable. > > We have a strong solar access law in California that was passed about 15 > > years ago before PV was being installed in urban areas. This year PV was > > added to the law. This means that restrictive CC&Rs (Codes, Convenants and > > Restrictions) are illegal. > > (As an historical note, as late as the 1960s, some communities in southen > > California prohibited home ownership to blacks, asians, hispanics, jews, > > etc. I mention this because some Americans think we have less freedom than > > in the past. The truth is more people in the world are free now than ever > > before. Be sure to vote.) > > > Well you can probably guess my question! > > > Do you need planning permission to stick a few solar panels ontop of > > > your roof if you live in a populated residential area in the UK?  I do > > > not live within any National Park boundaries if that makes any > > > difference? > > > If the answer to the above question is yes, that you do need planning > > > permission, I just wondered if you would still need planning > > > permission for the solar panels that look just exactly like house roof > > > tiles?  you would not notice much of a difference if the panels just > > > looked like part of your roof would you?  The large panels would just > > > look like a sky light anyway, wouldn’t they? > > > I can understand planning permission for a wind generator on top of > > > your house or sticking up on a pole in your garden, but a flat solar > > > panel on your roof?  Surely you don’t need permission do you? > > > How about in the USA? or anywhere else in the World? OZ? NZ?  Do you > > > guys need permission for panels? > > > I also just wondered if the government in this country offers any kind > > > of grant if you are buying renewable non-polluting energy for your > > > home?  I know that they offer a small grant for people buying the > > > hybrid car the Honda Insight that runs on Petrol and Electric Power > > > and gives out less emmissions, so do they offer it for home power? > > > What about in other countries? > > > Cheers for any help > > > John

Response:

More people live in freedom now than ever before. My friend studied law at Oxford in 1985 and gave me a nice book titled "Solar Energy and The Law" by Adrian Bradbrook published in 1984 by The Law Company Limited, Melbourne, Australia (324 pages) which explains solar access in detail for that country. A Yahoo search for UK solar access turns up 19200 references. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > You made that point (California)  in your first posting.. I was referring to > the rest of the world, or more particular the rest of the US. > Any and all CC&Rs that restrict solar water heater and PV panels are > illegal in > California. > > On the other hand Joel, there are plenty of > communities/sub-divisions/etc > > that have your CC&Rs that prohibit any outside add on structures such as > > antennas, TV receiving dishes, storage sheds,parked cars in the > driveway, > > swing sets, roof mounted objects and so forth, ( I am sure that a PV > array > > would fall into one of the above mentioned catagories) …. A person > really > > has to check their own CC&R rules.  We are not as free to do what we > want, > > on our own land, as you think.  Our next door neighbors decide what they > > want to look at in our backyards. (Not in my backyard is a common theme > > here) … Now if you move out, way out, like Steve and Wayne, and buy a > > chuck of land (80+ acres), then probably there are fewer CC&R’s to > contend > > with and yes, PV arrays or anything else are acceptable. > > > We have a strong solar access law in California that was passed about > 15 > > > years ago before PV was being installed in urban areas. This year PV > was > > > added to the law. This means that restrictive CC&Rs (Codes, Convenants > and > > > Restrictions) are illegal. > > > (As an historical note, as late as the 1960s, some communities in > southen > > > California prohibited home ownership to blacks, asians, hispanics, > jews, > > > etc. I mention this because some Americans think we have less freedom > than > > > in the past. The truth is more people in the world are free now than > ever > > > before. Be sure to vote.) > > > > Well you can probably guess my question! > > > > Do you need planning permission to stick a few solar panels ontop of > > > > your roof if you live in a populated residential area in the UK?  I > do > > > > not live within any National Park boundaries if that makes any > > > > difference? > > > > If the answer to the above question is yes, that you do need > planning > > > > permission, I just wondered if you would still need planning > > > > permission for the solar panels that look just exactly like house > roof > > > > tiles?  you would not notice much of a difference if the panels just > > > > looked like part of your roof would you?  The large panels would > just > > > > look like a sky light anyway, wouldn’t they? > > > > I can understand planning permission for a wind generator on top of > > > > your house or sticking up on a pole in your garden, but a flat solar > > > > panel on your roof?  Surely you don’t need permission do you? > > > > How about in the USA? or anywhere else in the World? OZ? NZ?  Do you > > > > guys need permission for panels? > > > > I also just wondered if the government in this country offers any > kind > > > > of grant if you are buying renewable non-polluting energy for your > > > > home?  I know that they offer a small grant for people buying the > > > > hybrid car the Honda Insight that runs on Petrol and Electric Power > > > > and gives out less emmissions, so do they offer it for home power? > > > > What about in other countries? > > > > Cheers for any help > > > > John

Response:

So what is your point ? My point is that one needs to look at their own CC&R rules for their region/sub-divison/state/country/town/city/subburb/etc to see if you can install a PV array/wind generator/tower/antenna/TV dish/swingset/storage shed or whatever…..  There are areas that have varying degrees of tolerances for such things and there are others that are very restrictive. A person better do the research on what exterior fixtures/activities are permissiable and what isn’t before purchasing that land/home. Period! There are many factors of  "freedom" .  In this case, I was referring to the lack of  freedom of doing whatever you wanted with your own personal  land property… that your neighbors now have alot to say about it.  For example: can a wealthy individual pull an old junk car up into his plush-prestine front yard and gated community,  and park it there for a lawn orniment, with out his nighbors across the way getting hostile?  Can the same rich person fling his garbage out the back door, onto his own property? Can that same rich person install a half ass or even a super job assembled PV array?   Can tht rich man log or mine his property?   All depends on the CC&R rules of that specific area.  Then is he more or less free?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> More people live in freedom now than ever before. My friend studied law at > Oxford in 1985 and gave me a nice book titled "Solar Energy and The Law" by > Adrian Bradbrook published in 1984 by The Law Company Limited, Melbourne, > Australia (324 pages) which explains solar access in detail for that country. A > Yahoo search for UK solar access turns up 19200 references. > You made that point (California)  in your first posting.. I was referring to > the rest of the world, or more particular the rest of the US. > > Any and all CC&Rs that restrict solar water heater and PV panels are > illegal in > > California. > > > On the other hand Joel, there are plenty of > communities/sub-divisions/etc > > > that have your CC&Rs that prohibit any outside add on structures such as > > > antennas, TV receiving dishes, storage sheds,parked cars in the > driveway, > > > swing sets, roof mounted objects and so forth, ( I am sure that a PV > array > > > would fall into one of the above mentioned catagories) …. A person > really > > > has to check their own CC&R rules.  We are not as free to do what we > want, > > > on our own land, as you think.  Our next door neighbors decide what they > > > want to look at in our backyards. (Not in my backyard is a common theme > > > here) … Now if you move out, way out, like Steve and Wayne, and buy a > > > chuck of land (80+ acres), then probably there are fewer CC&R’s to > contend > > > with and yes, PV arrays or anything else are acceptable. > > > > We have a strong solar access law in California that was passed about > 15 > > > > years ago before PV was being installed in urban areas. This year PV > was > > > > added to the law. This means that restrictive CC&Rs (Codes, Convenants > and > > > > Restrictions) are illegal. > > > > (As an historical note, as late as the 1960s, some communities in > southen > > > > California prohibited home ownership to blacks, asians, hispanics, > jews, > > > > etc. I mention this because some Americans think we have less freedom > than > > > > in the past. The truth is more people in the world are free now than > ever > > > > before. Be sure to vote.) > > > > > Well you can probably guess my question! > > > > > Do you need planning permission to stick a few solar panels ontop of > > > > > your roof if you live in a populated residential area in the UK? I > do > > > > > not live within any National Park boundaries if that makes any > > > > > difference? > > > > > If the answer to the above question is yes, that you do need > planning > > > > > permission, I just wondered if you would still need planning > > > > > permission for the solar panels that look just exactly like house > roof > > > > > tiles?  you would not notice much of a difference if the panels just > > > > > looked like part of your roof would you?  The large panels would > just > > > > > look like a sky light anyway, wouldn’t they? > > > > > I can understand planning permission for a wind generator on top of > > > > > your house or sticking up on a pole in your garden, but a flat solar > > > > > panel on your roof?  Surely you don’t need permission do you? > > > > > How about in the USA? or anywhere else in the World? OZ? NZ?  Do you > > > > > guys need permission for panels? > > > > > I also just wondered if the government in this country offers any > kind > > > > > of grant if you are buying renewable non-polluting energy for your > > > > > home?  I know that they offer a small grant for people buying the > > > > > hybrid car the Honda Insight that runs on Petrol and Electric Power > > > > > and gives out less emmissions, so do they offer it for home power? > > > > > What about in other countries? > > > > > Cheers for any help > > > > > John

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > So what is your point ? > My point is that one needs to look at their own CC&R rules for their > region/sub-divison/state/country/town/city/subburb/etc to see if you can > install a PV array/wind generator/tower/antenna/TV dish/swingset/storage > shed or whatever…..  There are areas that have varying degrees of > tolerances for such things and there are others that are very restrictive. > A person better do the research on what exterior fixtures/activities are > permissiable and what isn’t before purchasing that land/home. Period! > There are many factors of  "freedom" .  In this case, I was referring to the > lack of  freedom of doing whatever you wanted with your own personal  land > property… that your neighbors now have alot to say about it. >  For example: can a wealthy individual pull an old junk car up into his > plush-prestine front yard and gated community,  and park it there for a lawn > orniment, with out his nighbors across the way getting hostile?  Can the > same rich person fling his garbage out the back door, onto his own property? > Can that same rich person install a half ass or even a super job assembled > PV array?   Can tht rich man log or mine his property?   All depends on the > CC&R rules of that specific area.  Then is he more or less free?

You are confusing "freedom" with one’s responsibility to uphold his end of a contract. When you buy into a subdivision governed by "conditions, covenants, and restrictions" you are agreeing to abide by those rules. Claiming that you are not "free" on your own property after agreeing to restrictions constitutes whining. Wayne

Response:

Point? My intention is to encourage people to use solar energy and direct people toward solutions to solar access problems. As to freedom, I occasionally refresh my memory with Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary’s synonym explanation for freedom: Freedom, liberty, license mean the power or condition of acting without compulsion. Freedom has a broad range of application from total absence of restraint to merely a sense of not being unduly hampered or frustrated; liberty suggests release from former restrain or compulsion; license implies freedom specially granted or conceded and may not connote an abuse of freedom. At election time, I also like to read the last paragraph of Thoreau’s essay on Civil Disobedience: The authority of government, even such as I am willing to submit to, – for I will cheerfully obey those who know and can do better than I, and in many things even those who neither know not can do so well, – is still an impure one: to be strictly just, it must have the sanction and consent of the governed. It can have no pure right over my person and property but what I concede to it. The progress from an absolute to a limited monarchy, from a limited monarch to a democracy, is a progress toward a true respect for the individual. Even the Chinese philosopher was wise enough to regard the individual as the basis of the empire. Is a democracy, such as we know it, the last improvement possible in government? Is it not possible to take a step further towards recognizing and organizing the rights of man? There will never be a really free and enlightened State, until the State comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power from which all its own power and authority are derived, and treats him accordingly. I please myself with imagining a State at last which can afford to be just to all men, and to treat the individual with respect as a neighbor; which even would not think it inconsistent with its own repose, if a few were to live aloof from it, not meddling with it, nor embraced by it, who fulfilled all the duties of neighbors and fellow-men. A State which bore this kind of fruit, and suffered it to drop off as fast as it ripened, would prepare the way for a still more perfect and glorious State, which also I have imagined, but not yet anywhere seen. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > So what is your point ? > My point is that one needs to look at their own CC&R rules for their > region/sub-divison/state/country/town/city/subburb/etc to see if you can > install a PV array/wind generator/tower/antenna/TV dish/swingset/storage > shed or whatever…..  There are areas that have varying degrees of > tolerances for such things and there are others that are very restrictive. > A person better do the research on what exterior fixtures/activities are > permissiable and what isn’t before purchasing that land/home. Period! > There are many factors of  "freedom" .  In this case, I was referring to the > lack of  freedom of doing whatever you wanted with your own personal  land > property… that your neighbors now have alot to say about it. >  For example: can a wealthy individual pull an old junk car up into his > plush-prestine front yard and gated community,  and park it there for a lawn > orniment, with out his nighbors across the way getting hostile?  Can the > same rich person fling his garbage out the back door, onto his own property? > Can that same rich person install a half ass or even a super job assembled > PV array?   Can tht rich man log or mine his property?   All depends on the > CC&R rules of that specific area.  Then is he more or less free? > More people live in freedom now than ever before. My friend studied law at > Oxford in 1985 and gave me a nice book titled "Solar Energy and The Law" > by > Adrian Bradbrook published in 1984 by The Law Company Limited, Melbourne, > Australia (324 pages) which explains solar access in detail for that > country. A > Yahoo search for UK solar access turns up 19200 references. > > You made that point (California)  in your first posting.. I was > referring to > > the rest of the world, or more particular the rest of the US. > > > Any and all CC&Rs that restrict solar water heater and PV panels are > > illegal in > > > California. > > > > On the other hand Joel, there are plenty of > > communities/sub-divisions/etc > > > > that have your CC&Rs that prohibit any outside add on structures > such as > > > > antennas, TV receiving dishes, storage sheds,parked cars in the > > driveway, > > > > swing sets, roof mounted objects and so forth, ( I am sure that a PV > > array > > > > would fall into one of the above mentioned catagories) …. A person > > really > > > > has to check their own CC&R rules.  We are not as free to do what we > > want, > > > > on our own land, as you think.  Our next door neighbors decide what > they > > > > want to look at in our backyards. (Not in my backyard is a common > theme > > > > here) … Now if you move out, way out, like Steve and Wayne, and > buy a > > > > chuck of land (80+ acres), then probably there are fewer CC&R’s to > > contend > > > > with and yes, PV arrays or anything else are acceptable. > > > > > We have a strong solar access law in California that was passed > about > > 15 > > > > > years ago before PV was being installed in urban areas. This year > PV > > was > > > > > added to the law. This means that restrictive CC&Rs (Codes, > Convenants > > and > > > > > Restrictions) are illegal. > > > > > (As an historical note, as late as the 1960s, some communities in > > southen > > > > > California prohibited home ownership to blacks, asians, hispanics, > > jews, > > > > > etc. I mention this because some Americans think we have less > freedom > > than > > > > > in the past. The truth is more people in the world are free now > than > > ever > > > > > before. Be sure to vote.) > > > > > > Well you can probably guess my question! > > > > > > Do you need planning permission to stick a few solar panels > ontop of > > > > > > your roof if you live in a populated residential area in the UK? > I > > do > > > > > > not live within any National Park boundaries if that makes any > > > > > > difference? > > > > > > If the answer to the above question is yes, that you do need > > planning > > > > > > permission, I just wondered if you would still need planning > > > > > > permission for the solar panels that look just exactly like > house > > roof > > > > > > tiles?  you would not notice much of a difference if the panels > just > > > > > > looked like part of your roof would you?  The large panels would > > just > > > > > > look like a sky light anyway, wouldn’t they? > > > > > > I can understand planning permission for a wind generator on top > of > > > > > > your house or sticking up on a pole in your garden, but a flat > solar > > > > > > panel on your roof?  Surely you don’t need permission do you? > > > > > > How about in the USA? or anywhere else in the World? OZ? NZ?  Do > you > > > > > > guys need permission for panels? > > > > > > I also just wondered if the government in this country offers > any > > kind > > > > > > of grant if you are buying renewable non-polluting energy for > your > > > > > > home?  I know that they offer a small grant for people buying > the > > > > > > hybrid car the Honda Insight that runs on Petrol and Electric > Power > > > > > > and gives out less emmissions, so do they offer it for home > power? > > > > > > What about in other countries? > > > > > > Cheers for any help > > > > > > John

Response:

>More people live in freedom now than ever before. My friend studied law at >Oxford in 1985 and gave me a nice book titled "Solar Energy and The Law" by >Adrian Bradbrook published in 1984 by The Law Company Limited, Melbourne, >Australia (324 pages) which explains solar access in detail for that country. >A >Yahoo search for UK solar access turns up 19200 references.

Yes.  There is more freedom around the world thanks to RR and the demise of the Evil Empire. However, while America fought and won the Cold War to free the rest of the world form the slavery of the proletariet, Americans themselves became dramatically less free.  maybe its time to reverse that course and demand more freedom for ourselves. Bob Peterson CM#1412 ANA#R-182415 WINS#1 World Internet Numismatic Society www.winsociety.org

Response:

> You are confusing "freedom" with one’s responsibility to uphold his end of a > contract. When you buy into a subdivision governed by "conditions, > covenants, and restrictions" you are agreeing to abide by those rules. > Claiming that you are not "free" on your own property after agreeing to > restrictions constitutes whining. > Wayne

I agree with your assessment here Wayne.  If there were such "conditions, covenants, and restrictions"  in place, when the person acquired the property they have no right to complain.  The CC&R’s also give the subdivision organization legal rights to make the offender correct their actions.   No argument here… Buyer beware so to speak.  Now how would you  assess the situation if there were NO    "conditions, covenants, and restrictions" when the person acquired the land, but afterwards there was some kind of restriction passed?   Example: A property is purchased and a gravel pit is started to extract the contents for profit.. The land  was  sparsely populated, undeveloped, at the time, not desirable for homesites and so forth.  At time of purchase and development, the land was  zoned and so forth for such activity…. Then  sometime afterwards, private homesites are developed around the gravel operation, with full knowledge of the activity and after a little while later,  the CC&R’s are changed in favor of the homeowners and not the gravel company. Is freedom taken away?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->More people live in freedom now than ever before. My friend studied law at >Oxford in 1985 and gave me a nice book titled "Solar Energy and The Law" by >Adrian Bradbrook published in 1984 by The Law Company Limited, Melbourne, >Australia (324 pages) which explains solar access in detail for that country. >A >Yahoo search for UK solar access turns up 19200 references. > Yes.  There is more freedom around the world thanks to RR and the demise of the > Evil Empire. > However, while America fought and won the Cold War to free the rest of the > world form the slavery of the proletariet, Americans themselves became > dramatically less free.  maybe its time to reverse that course and demand more > freedom for ourselves.

Bob, Very stirring.  Have you seen any Reds under the bed lately.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I agree with your assessment here Wayne.  If there were such "conditions, > covenants, and restrictions"  in place, when the person acquired the > property they have no right to complain.  The CC&R’s also give the > subdivision organization legal rights to make the offender correct their > actions.   No argument here… Buyer beware so to speak. >  Now how would you  assess the situation if there were NO    "conditions, > covenants, and restrictions" when the person acquired the land, but > afterwards there was some kind of restriction passed?   Example: A property > is purchased and a gravel pit is started to extract the contents for > profit.. The land  was  sparsely populated, undeveloped, at the time, not > desirable for homesites and so forth.  At time of purchase and development, > the land was  zoned and so forth for such activity…. Then  sometime > afterwards, private homesites are developed around the gravel operation, > with full knowledge of the activity and after a little while later,  the > CC&R’s are changed in favor of the homeowners and not the gravel company. > Is freedom taken away?

AFAIK, CC&Rs specifically are rules adopted by planned developments. They have no effect on those outside of the development. As for other restrictions, like zoning laws for example, those are just part of life in the big world. Anyone who buys property needs to consider what will be developed around them. They shouldn’t assume that because they’re first on the block, that neighboring property owners will go along with what’s been done in the past, no matter how long it’s been going on. Example: We’re alone for the time being on the side of this mountain. But the property below us is privately owned, and will be developed eventually. It could be tomorrow, or it could be ten or twenty years from now. I could do all sorts of things up here until then without complaint. But if neighbors move in, and they don’t like it, they’ll be within their rights to complain if what I’m doing is contrary to law. Even if the laws are different than what exists now. Want to protect yourself against these sorts of eventualities? Start shopping around for property far from the beaten path. Make sure there’s no grid. That will make it possible, even considering the cost of the homepower equipment, to buy a good sized, private, chunk of land for less than something nearer the city. And do it before everyone else figures out that homepower can make it affordable. ‘Cause once they catch on, then the off-grid stuff won’t be a bargain anymore. Think I remember hearing about someone who did something along those lines.  <G> One other piece of advice. Change your hobbies. No more golf, movies, Usenet, etc. (skip children too unless you enjoy the extra work and expense. hee hee hee  Instead, put your leisure time into learning things that will be useful later on in your new career as a desert rat/old fart.  :-) Wayne

Response:

>More people live in freedom now than ever before. My friend studied law at >Oxford in 1985 and gave me a nice book titled "Solar Energy and The Law" by >Adrian Bradbrook published in 1984 by The Law Company Limited, Melbourne, >Australia (324 pages) which explains solar access in detail for that country. A >Yahoo search for UK solar access turns up 19200 references.

I don’t think that Yahoo likes me!  I tried both the .com and .co.uk Yahoo sites and they both only gave me one site match as below! Yahoo! Site Matches  (1 – 1 of 1) Regional > Countries > United Kingdom > Business and Economy > Business to Business > Construction > Special Construction > Solariums and Conservatories   Conservatory Components Consco  - manufactures components and accessories John

Response:

>So what is your point ? >My point is that one needs to look at their own CC&R rules for their >region/sub-divison/state/country/town/city/subburb/etc to see if you can >install a PV array/wind generator/tower/antenna/TV dish/swingset/storage >shed or whatever…..  There are areas that have varying degrees of >tolerances for such things and there are others that are very restrictive. >A person better do the research on what exterior fixtures/activities are >permissiable and what isn’t before purchasing that land/home. Period!

I am going to telephone my Councils planning services number tomorrow and find out about this.  I personally don’t think that they could refuse solar panels on top of some ones house roof, because a Satellite Dish is a lot more "in your face" so to speak.  But knowing my council and country they would probably turn around and say that you need permission, and even if you apply they may refuse!  But there is only one way to find out, and I’ll do that tomorrow! >There are many factors of  "freedom" .  In this case, I was referring to the >lack of  freedom of doing whatever you wanted with your own personal  land >property… that your neighbors now have alot to say about it. > For example: can a wealthy individual pull an old junk car up into his >plush-prestine front yard and gated community,  and park it there for a lawn >orniment, with out his nighbors across the way getting hostile?  Can the >same rich person fling his garbage out the back door, onto his own property? >Can that same rich person install a half ass or even a super job assembled >PV array?   Can tht rich man log or mine his property?   All depends on the >CC&R rules of that specific area.  Then is he more or less free?

You raise some very interesting points. John

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So what is your point ? > My point is that one needs to look at their own CC&R rules for their > region/sub-divison/state/country/town/city/subburb/etc to see if you can > install a PV array/wind generator/tower/antenna/TV dish/swingset/storage > shed or whatever…..  There are areas that have varying degrees of > tolerances for such things and there are others that are very restrictive. > A person better do the research on what exterior fixtures/activities are > permissiable and what isn’t before purchasing that land/home. Period! > There are many factors of  "freedom" .  In this case, I was referring to >the > lack of  freedom of doing whatever you wanted with your own personal  land > property… that your neighbors now have alot to say about it. >  For example: can a wealthy individual pull an old junk car up into his > plush-prestine front yard and gated community,  and park it there for a >lawn > orniment, with out his nighbors across the way getting hostile?  Can the > same rich person fling his garbage out the back door, onto his own >property? > Can that same rich person install a half ass or even a super job assembled > PV array?   Can tht rich man log or mine his property?   All depends on >the > CC&R rules of that specific area.  Then is he more or less free? >You are confusing "freedom" with one’s responsibility to uphold his end of a >contract. When you buy into a subdivision governed by "conditions, >covenants, and restrictions" you are agreeing to abide by those rules. >Claiming that you are not "free" on your own property after agreeing to >restrictions constitutes whining. >Wayne

Maybe so, but people can raise an objection about something and try and get something changed.  If 70% of the people are in favour of something then the end result of any "whining" would be a change in the law.  I personally don’t think it can really be called whining, everyone is free to make an objection or petition about something.  I think though, that the laws you have about subdivisions, conditions, covenants, rules and restrictions are quite different than to here in the UK.  I undertand what you are saying though about when something has been agreed to in a contract. John

Response:

You are almost there with Yahoo. Go past "Web Sites" and go to the next level "Web Pages". – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->More people live in freedom now than ever before. My friend studied law at >Oxford in 1985 and gave me a nice book titled "Solar Energy and The Law" by >Adrian Bradbrook published in 1984 by The Law Company Limited, Melbourne, >Australia (324 pages) which explains solar access in detail for that country. A >Yahoo search for UK solar access turns up 19200 references. > I don’t think that Yahoo likes me!  I tried both the .com and .co.uk > Yahoo sites and they both only gave me one site match as below! > Yahoo! Site Matches  (1 – 1 of 1) > Regional > Countries > United Kingdom > Business and Economy > > Business to Business > Construction > Special Construction > Solariums > and Conservatories > Conservatory Components Consco  - manufactures components and > accessories > John

Response:

When you cal the Council, keep it courteous and ask, "I’m considering using solar electricity to produce clean, quiet electric power from the sun and the solar panel has to be on my roof. Is this ok?" If either yes or no, ask the name of the person to whom you spoke. If yes, ask "Besides a building permit, is there any other paperwork I need to take care of?" If no, ask "Could you please tell me what regulation does not allow me to use solar electricity?" With this information, others can help you. The main things to remember if you are told "no" is to keep it cordial and do not telegraph you punches. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->So what is your point ? >My point is that one needs to look at their own CC&R rules for their >region/sub-divison/state/country/town/city/subburb/etc to see if you can >install a PV array/wind generator/tower/antenna/TV dish/swingset/storage >shed or whatever…..  There are areas that have varying degrees of >tolerances for such things and there are others that are very restrictive. >A person better do the research on what exterior fixtures/activities are >permissiable and what isn’t before purchasing that land/home. Period! > I am going to telephone my Councils planning services number tomorrow > and find out about this.  I personally don’t think that they could > refuse solar panels on top of some ones house roof, because a > Satellite Dish is a lot more "in your face" so to speak.  But knowing > my council and country they would probably turn around and say that > you need permission, and even if you apply they may refuse!  But there > is only one way to find out, and I’ll do that tomorrow! >There are many factors of  "freedom" .  In this case, I was referring to the >lack of  freedom of doing whatever you wanted with your own personal  land >property… that your neighbors now have alot to say about it. > For example: can a wealthy individual pull an old junk car up into his >plush-prestine front yard and gated community,  and park it there for a lawn >orniment, with out his nighbors across the way getting hostile?  Can the >same rich person fling his garbage out the back door, onto his own property? >Can that same rich person install a half ass or even a super job assembled >PV array?   Can tht rich man log or mine his property?   All depends on the >CC&R rules of that specific area.  Then is he more or less free? > You raise some very interesting points. > John

Response:

Get your facts straight. Reagan was a Hollywood actor going to parties in Beverly Hills in the 1960s while I was working at a U.S. Army nuke missile base in Europe. Then in the 1970s, governor Reagan cut California education programs while I was teaching veterans in Oakland the building trade until Reagan budget cuts terminated my job. Then in the 1980s, president Reagan led a Republican spending spree that created the greatest national debt in the history of civilization. Now some of the same incumbent Republicans are delaying the federal budget approval so they can squeeze in as much pork barrel spending as possible. (I know this is off-subject, but Reagan did not fight the evil empire or any other fight. Reagan was an actor and a politician.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->More people live in freedom now than ever before. My friend studied law at >Oxford in 1985 and gave me a nice book titled "Solar Energy and The Law" by >Adrian Bradbrook published in 1984 by The Law Company Limited, Melbourne, >Australia (324 pages) which explains solar access in detail for that country. >A >Yahoo search for UK solar access turns up 19200 references. > Yes.  There is more freedom around the world thanks to RR and the demise of the > Evil Empire. > However, while America fought and won the Cold War to free the rest of the > world form the slavery of the proletariet, Americans themselves became > dramatically less free.  maybe its time to reverse that course and demand more > freedom for ourselves. > Bob Peterson > CM#1412 ANA#R-182415 WINS#1 > World Internet Numismatic Society > www.winsociety.org

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I agree with your assessment here Wayne.  If there were such "conditions, > covenants, and restrictions"  in place, when the person acquired the > property they have no right to complain.  The CC&R’s also give the > subdivision organization legal rights to make the offender correct their > actions.   No argument here… Buyer beware so to speak. >  Now how would you  assess the situation if there were NO "conditions, > covenants, and restrictions" when the person acquired the land, but > afterwards there was some kind of restriction passed?   Example: A > property > is purchased and a gravel pit is started to extract the contents for > profit.. The land  was  sparsely populated, undeveloped, at the time, not > desirable for homesites and so forth.  At time of purchase and > development, > the land was  zoned and so forth for such activity…. Then  sometime > afterwards, private homesites are developed around the gravel operation, > with full knowledge of the activity and after a little while later,  the > CC&R’s are changed in favor of the homeowners and not the gravel company. > Is freedom taken away? > AFAIK, CC&Rs specifically are rules adopted by planned developments. They > have no effect on those outside of the development. > As for other restrictions, like zoning laws for example, those are just part > of life in the big world. Anyone who buys property needs to consider what > will be developed around them. They shouldn’t assume that because they’re > first on the block, that neighboring property owners will go along with > what’s been done in the past, no matter how long it’s been going on. > Example: We’re alone for the time being on the side of this mountain. But > the property below us is privately owned, and will be developed eventually. > It could be tomorrow, or it could be ten or twenty years from now. I could > do all sorts of things up here until then without complaint. But if > neighbors move in, and they don’t like it, they’ll be within their rights to > complain if what I’m doing is contrary to law. Even if the laws are > different than what exists now. > Want to protect yourself against these sorts of eventualities? Start > shopping around for property far from the beaten path. Make sure there’s no > grid. That will make it possible, even considering the cost of the homepower > equipment, to buy a good sized, private, chunk of land for less than > something nearer the city. And do it before everyone else figures out that > homepower can make it affordable. ‘Cause once they catch on, then the > off-grid stuff won’t be a bargain anymore. Think I remember hearing about > someone who did something along those lines.  <G> > One other piece of advice. Change your hobbies. No more golf, movies, > Usenet, etc. (skip children too unless you enjoy the extra work and expense. > hee hee hee  Instead, put your leisure time into learning things that will > be useful later on in your new career as a desert rat/old fart.  :-) > Wayne

I believe we are agreeing on something here, again… Understand and agree with your statement about land use zoning being able to change in mid stream.  "Part of life in the big world."  For the better or for the worse… If the zoning changes for the worse, then your freedom of doing what you want on your land is taken away.. Your neighbors can and do  have the last say… I believe that was one of my points a few postings back… You say protect yourself and buy land way out there?  You are not really protecting yourself, you are just minimizing the risk of neighbors changing the zoning on you…. It just takes one rich person to move in next door and set up shop and decide he doesn’t like what he sees on your land.   Second point,  you can only move so far, until you move to far away from your employment… Unless you have an internet type home business, or you plain have the money and don’t need a job.  Another example that I know of was  a family owned timber land that was in the family since the 1940’s.  They didn’t need the money so they just hung onto it… Somewhere in the mid to late 1990’s, the old folks became ill and so forth, and money was needed.  Log the timber was thought of , but that was nixed.  I don’t know what zoning or other regulations stopped them, but the outcry of the distance city people tourist sure did raise in volume… Now if they had logged the land some 20 years earlier, then there wouldn’t have been a problem…

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Get your facts straight. Reagan was a Hollywood actor going to parties in >Beverly >Hills in the 1960s while I was working at a U.S. Army nuke missile base in >Europe. >Then in the 1970s, governor Reagan cut California education programs while I >was >teaching veterans in Oakland the building trade until Reagan budget cuts >terminated >my job. Then in the 1980s, president Reagan led a Republican spending spree >that >created the greatest national debt in the history of civilization. Now some >of the >same incumbent Republicans are delaying the federal budget approval so they >can >squeeze in as much pork barrel spending as possible. (I know this is >off-subject, >but Reagan did not fight the evil empire or any other fight. Reagan was an >actor >and a politician.)

RR did not personally engage in combat its true.  He did lead the US in the great economic war against the evil empire and we won, to the continuing chagrin of liberals everywhere who still think communism is the ultimate form of governemnt. Bob Peterson CM#1412 ANA#R-182415 WINS#1 World Internet Numismatic Society www.winsociety.org

Response:

>Bob, >Very stirring.  Have you seen any Reds under the bed lately.

Not lately.  Thanks to RR they are no longer much of a threat. Bob Peterson CM#1412 ANA#R-182415 WINS#1 World Internet Numismatic Society www.winsociety.org

Response:

>When you cal the Council, keep it courteous and ask, "I’m considering using >solar >electricity to produce clean, quiet electric power from the sun and the solar >panel has to be on my roof. Is this ok?" If either yes or no, ask the name of >the >person to whom you spoke. If yes, ask "Besides a building permit, is there >any >other paperwork I need to take care of?" If no, ask "Could you please tell me >what regulation does not allow me to use solar electricity?" With this >information, others can help you. The main things to remember if you are told >"no" is to keep it cordial and do not telegraph you punches.

Don’t forget to suck up to these weasels and ask pretty please may I in a respectful tone of voice. Less government = more freedom! Bob Peterson CM#1412 ANA#R-182415 WINS#1 World Internet Numismatic Society www.winsociety.org

Response:

opps. I didn’t mean to offend any Reagan groupies. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Get your facts straight. Reagan was a Hollywood actor going to parties in >Beverly >Hills in the 1960s while I was working at a U.S. Army nuke missile base in >Europe. >Then in the 1970s, governor Reagan cut California education programs while I >was >teaching veterans in Oakland the building trade until Reagan budget cuts >terminated >my job. Then in the 1980s, president Reagan led a Republican spending spree >that >created the greatest national debt in the history of civilization. Now some >of the >same incumbent Republicans are delaying the federal budget approval so they >can >squeeze in as much pork barrel spending as possible. (I know this is >off-subject, >but Reagan did not fight the evil empire or any other fight. Reagan was an >actor >and a politician.) > RR did not personally engage in combat its true.  He did lead the US in the > great economic war against the evil empire and we won, to the continuing > chagrin of liberals everywhere who still think communism is the ultimate form > of governemnt. > Bob Peterson > CM#1412 ANA#R-182415 WINS#1 > World Internet Numismatic Society > www.winsociety.org

Response: