Question:
Hello. I’ve recently purchased a one acre lot that I intend to build a home on, starting in about a year. I’m exploring the feasibility of building an off-grid home. The lot is in Southern Ontario, Canada, sorta midway between Toronto and Niagara falls. The lot is well sheltered, ringed with pine/cedar trees, averaging about 20 feet in height. It’s dead-calm in the middle of the lot, even with the wind blowing hard enough to bend the tops of the trees over significantly. My (evolving) idea so far is incorporating passive solar, and active solar thermal, a wind generator for electricity, with a diesel powered generator for backup/supplement. I’m not new to solar PV, or solar thermal. I currently have a 6 panel Norsun thermal system that I intend to take with me (they’re not currently "permanently" setup, and it’s mostly dismantled in prep for moving to temp quarters until the house is built). With the design&size of the house, I expect the thermal panels to provide about 70% of my heating needs (I will be likely be using a forced air system, hot water feeding a heat exchanger in the air plenum, as I expect to have some sort of furnace (oil/propane/whatever to be determined yet, though most likely oil, if using diesel generator backup)). What I have *zero* experience with is wind generators. I’d really like to hear any comments / suggestions / criticism from current/past owners/users of wind generators. I currently have no idea of wind availability at the site, so I’ve purchased an anemometer with very rudimentary data storage, which I’ll be mounting on a 60 foot pole. I’ll be able to collect data for about 9 months before I actually begin to build, so hopefully I’ll have some idea of the feasibility of potential wind generation. The wind+diesel generation is planned for the first part of the construction, to, well, supply power for the construction of the house. This is out in "the country", where I can hear my neighbor 1/4 mile down the road cough on a calm, still, night. What kind of noise levels would I be looking at for a smaller, one household, type system? Am I out of my mind thinking about a forced air heating system with wind generation? What do you consider reliable (mechanically) turbine/generator manufacturers? Reliable charge controllers, inverters etc? If you could build your wind generation system all over again, what would you do different? I’d also like to hear from anyone who uses *small* diesel generators. Has anyone collected any *real* data for quantity of fuel used per kWh produced? I’ve done some theoretical projections/models, however, "real world" data/experience would kick the crap outta any guestimated efficiencies I plug into my spreadsheet. (btw anyone done this with a VW 4-cylinder pre "tdi" diesel engine??). Any and all comments, positive and negative, (except for the "isn’t economically feasible/smart to do if you have grid power nearby" type) are al, but that has very little to do with the drive behind my reasons for wanting to do this…..it’s for the engineering challenge/keep-me-entertained/perverse-satisfaction/hobby kinda thing. Thanks! K. Jones
Response:
|| || I’m not new to solar PV, or solar thermal. I currently have a 6 panel ||Norsun thermal system that I intend to take with me (they’re not currently ||"permanently" setup, and it’s mostly dismantled in prep for moving to temp ||quarters until the house is built). With the design&size of the house, I ||expect the thermal panels to provide about 70% of my heating needs (I will ||be likely be using a forced air system, hot water feeding a heat exchanger ||in the air plenum, as I expect to have some sort of furnace ||(oil/propane/whatever to be determined yet, though most likely oil, if using ||diesel generator backup)). Have you looked at incorporating radiant heat tubing in the foundation? Not familiar with the Norsun system. Texas Parts Guy
Response:
Hi Rex, thanks for your reply. The Norsun is an older, evacuated flat-plate type of thermal panel. There is a thin, "hollow", evacuated flat plate about 3-1/2 ft X 7-1/2ft under a sheet of glass. The plate meets a header at the top, where the heat exchange takes place. The idea is the refrigerant gas boils, travels up towards the header, where it condenses on the header pipe carrying the closed-loop fluid circulating between storage and the panel. Thus you only have a small amount of glycol/water mix circulating through the system. One "selling feature" touted was it as a "solar-diode", meaning that even if your glycol pump ran all night, you wouldn’t radiate your stored heat back out the collector. I bought the system used, about 8 years ago, I don’t know how old this particular "technology" is. The house is going to be 2 stories, with a full basement, "normal" stick-framing. The floors are going to be a mix of carpets, wood, ceramics, etc., so it really doesn’t lend itself to an under-floor radiant heat type system. I have been mulling over a zoned hydronic system, with individual room thermostats. (many of the bedrooms will only be "occupied" a couple of days a week). One of the reasons I like the forced air heat-exchanger system, is (a) I already have all the equipment for such a set-up, and (b) I’ve been fooling with my own absorption-type refrigeration for a few years, and should I get a satisfactory working design, I’d like to incorporate it into the house, but the forced air system isn’t carved in stone. Thanks, K. Jones
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> || > || I’m not new to solar PV, or solar thermal. I currently have a 6 panel > ||Norsun thermal system that I intend to take with me (they’re not currently > ||"permanently" setup, and it’s mostly dismantled in prep for moving to temp > ||quarters until the house is built). With the design&size of the house, I > ||expect the thermal panels to provide about 70% of my heating needs (I will > ||be likely be using a forced air system, hot water feeding a heat exchanger > ||in the air plenum, as I expect to have some sort of furnace > ||(oil/propane/whatever to be determined yet, though most likely oil, if using > ||diesel generator backup)). > Have you looked at incorporating radiant heat tubing in the foundation? > Not familiar with the Norsun system. > Texas Parts Guy
Response:
> The house is going to be 2 stories, with a full basement, "normal" > stick-framing. The floors are going to be a mix of carpets, wood, ceramics, > etc.
What an opportunity. I know nothing about your climate, but if you need cooling a very cost effective means is often to lay a pipe underground and draw air in through it with fan. You’ll need to look elsewhere for figures, I’ve nothing to hand. If condensation in the pipe is a problem you may want to use a heat exchanger on the indoor end. Solarthermal panels can form some part of your roof covering, so although they cost you lose a bit of cost of the usual roof covering. Night time forced ventilation is a very cost effective way to reduce day time temps. Loft ventilation drops house temps in day. Climbing plants on a wire frame near the house can reduce house temp in day too by shading: deciduous plants dont lose you winter sun. The separate frame means no problems with decorating, repairs, or plant damage. If theres one thing I’d want to do more than anything, it would be to have a proper computerised heating and cooling system. There is so much opportunity to improve temps by doing nothing more than opening and closing ventilation at the right times, ditto fans. This could be controlled with a rock stable computer, like an old BBC for example. No way use a PC. You’d need sensors everywhere, and need to program the machine. I’ve had at most 10C reduction in summer doing it by hand, no computerisation, no proper monitoring, so doing it properly would likely give you better. Also it extended the unheated time of the year by adding 2-3C on to indoor temps. Theres lots of stuff you could do there. Wind would not come high on my list though, as in terms of result per input, its far behind the above stuff. Just for the hobby angle it would be nice to have a solar cooking ring in the kitchen. I worked out how to do it. BTW you can still use UFH to deliver a percentage of your heat if you want. I’ve never had UFH but have heard glowing reports from folk who fitted it. Your choice of floor coverings dont preclude it. One plus with UFH is it takes much lower temp water, so can be run off solar panels more of the year. Regards, NT
Response:
>Hello. > I’ve recently purchased a one acre lot that I intend to build a home on, >starting in about a year. I’m exploring the feasibility of building an >off-grid home. >The lot is in Southern Ontario, Canada, sorta midway between Toronto and >Niagara falls. The lot is well sheltered, ringed with pine/cedar trees, >averaging about 20 feet in height. It’s dead-calm in the middle of the lot, >even with the wind blowing hard enough to bend the tops of the trees over >significantly. My (evolving) idea so far is incorporating passive solar, >and active solar thermal, a wind generator for electricity, with a diesel >powered generator for backup/supplement.
K. Jones You appear to have money to burn. I would guess that to become totally grid sufficient in a 2500 square foot home with solar, wind generation and auto-starting fuel driven generators would cost on the order of $50,000 in American currency. You will also incur routine maintenance expenses in addition to fuel charges and may have major equipment failures as well. I would burn the money in $1.00 bill increments to maximize the heating value if they are still available in Canada. If not, a quick trip to the US will get you a bundle of paper for Loonies. I live across the Niagara River near Buffalo. Your electric rates are probably 1/2 what mine are and natural gas is much cheaper which further leads me to question your sanity. If your lot is above and west of the Niagara Escarpment, then you will have more wind than below it. Unfortunately, you are also on the lee side of Lake Ontario. The sun will shine more often there than Buffalo though that is not saying much. I would guess is that a far better approach economically, although still not fiscally sound unless you are trying to make a point, would be to use Ontario Hydro, or whatever their local clone is now called near your lot, for backup. I am sure also that the on and off socialist power organization has net metering so you can get credit for any excesses that your home systems produce. Natural gas would be a better choice as a back up generator fuel source and you would likely avoid road taxes that you may have to otherwise pay for diesel fuel. It may not be available at your lot but propane would be my second choice. Some larger generator have carburetors that can be adjusted to burn all of the above. Regards, John Phillips
Response:
Hello. My biggest concern with "earth tubes" is mold, but your idea of a heat exchanger would solve that problem. They would help in both summer, and winter here. I hope to use plants and trees to help with summer cooling, like you said, deciduous plants won’t interfere much with winter heating. When I first envisioned the project, I imagined using an eprom with a basic language interpreter as the driver for the controls, but now, PLC’s are dirt cheap, and their programming is pretty simple nowadays. I’m looking a wind as a means to providing electrical power, provide noise and mechanical reliability isn’t too much of an issue (and provided I can get the local building department to play ball). A "solar cooking ring" in the kitchen? I’d like to hear more about that! When I envision under floor heating, all that comes to mind is a grid of pipework buried within a concrete slab. I’m having a hard time envisioning a system with a wooden joist type construction. Thanks! K. Jones
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The house is going to be 2 stories, with a full basement, "normal" > stick-framing. The floors are going to be a mix of carpets, wood, ceramics, > etc. > What an opportunity. I know nothing about your climate, but if you > need cooling a very cost effective means is often to lay a pipe > underground and draw air in through it with fan. You’ll need to look > elsewhere for figures, I’ve nothing to hand. If condensation in the > pipe is a problem you may want to use a heat exchanger on the indoor > end. > Solarthermal panels can form some part of your roof covering, so > although they cost you lose a bit of cost of the usual roof covering. > Night time forced ventilation is a very cost effective way to reduce > day time temps. > Loft ventilation drops house temps in day. > Climbing plants on a wire frame near the house can reduce house temp > in day too by shading: deciduous plants dont lose you winter sun. The > separate frame means no problems with decorating, repairs, or plant > damage. > If theres one thing I’d want to do more than anything, it would be to > have a proper computerised heating and cooling system. There is so > much opportunity to improve temps by doing nothing more than opening > and closing ventilation at the right times, ditto fans. This could be > controlled with a rock stable computer, like an old BBC for example. > No way use a PC. You’d need sensors everywhere, and need to program > the machine. I’ve had at most 10C reduction in summer doing it by > hand, no computerisation, no proper monitoring, so doing it properly > would likely give you better. Also it extended the unheated time of > the year by adding 2-3C on to indoor temps. > Theres lots of stuff you could do there. Wind would not come high on > my list though, as in terms of result per input, its far behind the > above stuff. > Just for the hobby angle it would be nice to have a solar cooking ring > in the kitchen. I worked out how to do it. > BTW you can still use UFH to deliver a percentage of your heat if you > want. I’ve never had UFH but have heard glowing reports from folk who > fitted it. Your choice of floor coverings dont preclude it. One plus > with UFH is it takes much lower temp water, so can be run off solar > panels more of the year. > Regards, NT
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hello. > I’ve recently purchased a one acre lot that I intend to build a home on, >starting in about a year. I’m exploring the feasibility of building an >off-grid home. >The lot is in Southern Ontario, Canada, sorta midway between Toronto and >Niagara falls. The lot is well sheltered, ringed with pine/cedar trees, >averaging about 20 feet in height. It’s dead-calm in the middle of the lot, >even with the wind blowing hard enough to bend the tops of the trees over >significantly. My (evolving) idea so far is incorporating passive solar, >and active solar thermal, a wind generator for electricity, with a diesel >powered generator for backup/supplement. > K. Jones > You appear to have money to burn. I would guess that to become totally > grid sufficient in a 2500 square foot home with solar, wind generation > and auto-starting fuel driven generators would cost on the order of > $50,000 in American currency. You will also incur routine maintenance > expenses in addition to fuel charges and may have major equipment > failures as well. > I would burn the money in $1.00 bill increments to maximize the > heating value if they are still available in Canada. If not, a quick > trip to the US will get you a bundle of paper for Loonies.
Whereas I don’t have "money to burn", I am willing to spend some to bring this project to fruitation. My costs are not going to be anywhere near your $50,000 USD. Each case is unique. The solar thermal for example. Apparently the system I have used to retail for around $12,000CDN. I bought it used, from an ex solar-installer, who was moving to a townhouse where he wouldn’t be allowed to use it. I paid him $1,200CDN for it. With my heating bills in the 1950’s house I currently live in, that’s a 4-month payback the first winter. I have a similiar opportunity for the diesel generator set-up …..and I’ll be looking for a used wind generator setup. This is part of the reason, I stated in the original post, I’m not interested in a discussion regarding the "economics" of what I propose to do. (a) I’ve discussed them on usenet/investigated them -at length- for a number of years, (b) I have several unique opportunities available to me, that will mitigate the costs far, far, below someone buying the components retail, and paying someone to install them, (c) weather or not it’s the "smartest money", is not germaine to my reasons for wanting to embark on this project. I’ve been the first one, on many occasions, to reply to a newbie that wants to put a grid-independant PV system on his roof in the middle of his subdivision house and get "free electricity" for the rest of his life……. Like I said, I’m aware of payback schedules (or lack thereof of them, as the case may be), and although I will be spending in the neighborhood of $15,000 to $20,000CDN for the entire setup, that’s not the point of the exercise. Exampe: When it comes to finishing the interior, I intend to do all the millwork, and the cabinetry, myself. Looking at the expense of the tools I have in the shop, and the time I will spend doing it, it would be far more economical to go to home depot, buy pre-painted MDF moulding, and a kitchen in a box, and be done with it. I don’t have a dozen people saying "that’s not the cheapest or easiest way to do that", people tend to understand the satisfaction /hobby/ whatever angle of spending the cash, and the time, to do that. In my case, this "off grid" project is, essentially, the same thing. Utility rates have nothing to do with the motivation behind the project. > I live across the Niagara River near Buffalo. Your electric rates are > probably 1/2 what mine are and natural gas is much cheaper which > further leads me to question your sanity.
We are "neighbors"! Our electric rates have gone through the roof lately, with "surcharges" amounting to darn near, and in some cases, more than half the bill. "The Grid", is available where I am going to build, Natural gas isn’t. Pre-painted MDF molding is much cheaper than making my own, am I insane for wanting to make my own? > If your lot is above and west of the Niagara Escarpment, then you > will have more wind than below it. Unfortunately, you are also on the > lee side of Lake Ontario. The sun will shine more often there than > Buffalo though that is not saying much.
Good guessing. Yes, it is above and west of the Niagara Escarpement, though not very far from it. > I would guess is that a far better approach economically, although > still not fiscally sound unless you are trying to make a point, would > be to use Ontario Hydro, or whatever their local clone is now called > near your lot, for backup.
It’s "OPG (Ontario Power Generation) and "Hydro one" (for the grid management) now. I worked for a number of years for the "old" Ontario Hydro, running coal-fired generators, 300MWe and 500MWe units… …hmmm, maybe that *is* part of "the point" of the project! *grin* >I am sure also that the on and off > socialist power organization has net metering so you can get credit > for any excesses that your home systems produce. Natural gas would be > a better choice as a back up generator fuel source and you would > likely avoid road taxes that you may have to otherwise pay for diesel > fuel. It may not be available at your lot but propane would be my > second choice. Some larger generator have carburetors that can be > adjusted to burn all of the above.
I embarrased to admit, I don’t know if we have net-metering or not. I never really thought about it, as I don’t intend to bring grid-service to the lot. Thanks, K. Jones – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Regards, > John Phillips
Response:
… > A "solar cooking ring" in the kitchen? I’d like to hear more about that!
I believe the "cooking ring" is a reference to an electric stove top. I’ve envisioned a solar thermal stove top as well and, in fact, such things have been built in the past. The typical design used previously is to have a large parabolic tracking mirror trough focusing sunlight on to a pipe. This pipe has oil pumped through it and this hot oil gets stored in an insulated container which may also contain some phase change material. Cooking top is a loop or spiral of small diameter pipe through which the hot oil gets pumped when you want to cook. It works but it’s a little expensive and the hot oil is a little hazardous. The version I was envisioning would use a parabolic heliostat to focus, through a small porthole, inside a thermal storage consisting of some loosely stacked scrap steel encased in a well insulated box. Air would be drawn out of this box to blow out of the cook top. I figured a mirror around 10 feet square would likely suffice for the average home. The disadvantage to this design is that the storage box and stove top would work best if built together. I.e. box outside the kitchen on the shady side of the house, stove on the inside wall facing the box. There might also be issues with the steel rusting over time when this is used in a humid location. Stainless steel might work better but then it gets more expensive. Some folks suggested lead sealed in copper pipes for the storage since it melts at just about the right temp. I’ve a slight (and possibly illogical) aversion to using lead. You can, of course, just use a heliostat mirror to focus light through a window on to your cooking surface (typically from underneath, so you don’t go blind). This only works during sunny days. > When I envision under floor heating, all that comes to mind is a grid of > pipework buried within a concrete slab. I’m having a hard time envisioning > a > system with a wooden joist type construction.
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/h00028.asp Anthony
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hello. > I’ve recently purchased a one acre lot that I intend to build a home > on, > starting in about a year. I’m exploring the feasibility of building an > off-grid home. > The lot is in Southern Ontario, Canada, sorta midway between Toronto and > Niagara falls. The lot is well sheltered, ringed with pine/cedar trees, > averaging about 20 feet in height. It’s dead-calm in the middle of the > lot, even with the wind blowing hard enough to bend the tops of the trees > over > significantly. My (evolving) idea so far is incorporating passive solar, > and active solar thermal, a wind generator for electricity, with a diesel > powered generator for backup/supplement. > I’m not new to solar PV, or solar thermal. I currently have a 6 panel > Norsun thermal system that I intend to take with me (they’re not currently > "permanently" setup, and it’s mostly dismantled in prep for moving to temp > quarters until the house is built). With the design&size of the house, I > expect the thermal panels to provide about 70% of my heating needs (I will > be likely be using a forced air system, hot water feeding a heat exchanger > in the air plenum, as I expect to have some sort of furnace > (oil/propane/whatever to be determined yet, though most likely oil, if > using diesel generator backup)). > What I have *zero* experience with is wind generators. I’d really > like > to hear any comments / suggestions / criticism from current/past > owners/users of wind generators. > I currently have no idea of wind availability at the site, so I’ve > purchased an anemometer with very rudimentary data storage, which I’ll be > mounting on > a 60 foot pole. I’ll be able to collect data for about 9 months before I > actually begin to build, so hopefully I’ll have some idea of the > feasibility > of potential wind generation. The wind+diesel generation is planned for > the first part of the construction, to, well, supply power for the > construction of the house. > This is out in "the country", where I can hear my neighbor 1/4 mile > down > the road cough on a calm, still, night. What kind of noise levels would I > be looking at for a smaller, one household, type system? Am I out of my > mind thinking about a forced air heating system with wind generation? > What do you consider reliable (mechanically) turbine/generator > manufacturers? > Reliable charge controllers, inverters etc? If you could build your wind > generation system all over again, what would you do different? > I’d also like to hear from anyone who uses *small* diesel generators. > Has anyone collected any *real* data for quantity of fuel used per kWh > produced? I’ve done some theoretical projections/models, however, "real > world" data/experience would kick the crap outta any guestimated > efficiencies I plug into my spreadsheet. > (btw anyone done this with a VW 4-cylinder pre "tdi" diesel engine??). > Any and all comments, positive and negative, (except for the "isn’t > economically feasible/smart to do if you have grid power nearby" type) are > et al, but that has very little to do with the drive behind my reasons for > wanting to do this…..it’s for the engineering > challenge/keep-me-entertained/perverse-satisfaction/hobby kinda thing.
Having read some of the other responses you have had I am surprised that no-one has raised the potential energy source of your household wastes. You will also probably have some potential in your surrounding trees (if they are yours to cut (coppiceing rather than wholesale deforestation). This will require an audit of the likely waste products your intended lifestyle will produce (don’t forget the sewerage). Burning this stuff at a high enough temperature in a furnace and using the heat for a cooking range and a Stirling powered generator instead of the diesel option may gain you more and cost you less. It is, at least, worth a look. How good are you with the practical side of things? — Forth based HIDECS Consultancy …..<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/> Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095 …. see http://www.feabhas.com for details. Going Forth Safely ….. EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
Response:
>When I envision under floor heating, all that comes to mind is a grid of >pipework buried within a concrete slab.
This *is* one method (plastic tubing in long U-shaped loops, usually, rather than a grid), but: >I’m having a hard time envisioning a >system with a wooden joist type construction.
You just clip the tubing up against the subfloor. Using mixing valves to moderate the temperatures, a single hydronic heating system can feed tubes that go to all kinds of different floor materials. It really is a nice way to provide heat. — In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Wind River Systems Salt Lake City, UT, USA (40
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