Question:
>If the wiring were acceptable, they would still be installing it >today. > Uhhhhhhhhhhh… It is still in the NEC.
Which just means it’s not blatantly unsafe. > But let’s go back and use this argument in the 1970s for aluminum wiring. >The insulation is falling apart. > The rubber is brittle. The cloth insulation is fine. This is probably > an issue in places. The insulation on the exposed wires is fine, but > you are right that if it is brittle in one receptacle then it is probably > wearing out in other places unseen. Should I race out and upgrade > everything? An electrician and an inspector both saw it and said it was > in "fair" condition, but that was before it was disturbed (by me).
what you should do is "Meg" the wires. Go back and find where the drop outs are or if necesary go into the panel and put a megaohmeter on the line. It will tell you if the insulation is failing. It’s probably adequate, and don’t put in GFI’s and Grounded outlets unless it’s neccesary for safety. Because modern electronics really want a ground, and if it’s not grounded, they get a little funky and you don’t know why. Better to have ungrounded outlets so the user knows or placard each outlet as "Ungrounded/GFI protected". given you don’t want to wreck the walls, just add an additional service outlet in some discrete location where the walls will be okay. >There is no ground. > So?
fucks up digital electronics. Grounds really add an intangible level of safety. >You can’t tell what gauge it is. > Yes, I can. It is 12 or 14 gauge. Either is plenty fine for a 15 amp > receptacle. It might be a problem that the breaker is rated for 20 amps, > but I assume that the electrician who installed the panel (which was > updated in the 1980s) knew what he was doing. There is a permit for that > work. Do you feel I should drop down to 15 amp breakers just to be safe?
wouldn’t hurt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->How do you do GFCI with no ground? > Others have answered this one. It’s *because* I have no ground that I > wish to install GFCIs on all outlets. >Do you really need someone to tell you this is less than safe? Get >help from someone who at least knows what the codes are. > I know what the code is. What I didn’t know was what is inside of my walls. > I think I do now. It is the old knob and tube wiring, like exists in the > attic.
Okay if the attic is K&T, then this is primitive romex. K&T is fine, but i’d upgrade on major outlets, such as Refrigerators, Kitchen, TV, etc…. Old houses are a PITA to update. > Much of the house’s electrical has been upgraded, but not this > room. The reason is because the walls have a unique texture to them that > should be preserved. The only way to rewire is from the outside, or > possibly the crawlspace, but I’m not quite ready for that just yet.
Okay, bite the tubesteak slowly 
Crawlspace work is best done in early spring before the creepy crawlies wake up – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dimitri
Response:
Your house is probably wired the same way mine was. In the attic (or basement, whatever), each circuit has a main ‘trunk’ line running the length of the house. It consists of separate hot and neutral wires run side by side. Wherever an outlet was needed, they just stripped the trunk wires, and attached a ‘drop’ wire to run down to a particular outlet or light switch. This drop wire is an early form of Romex. The attachment points are twisted and soldered then wrapped with tape. No boxes are used. Dennis
Response:
> As a sidebar: did anyone else here catch the crap the scriptwriters of > CSI wrote into that episode where the guy on a construction site was > killed by electrocution? I really like CSI, but was rather disappointed > with the lack of research, or perhaps out and out falsification, of > some of the details regarding GFCI protection. Off the top of my head, > the idea of a GFCI protected outlet in that location on the construction > site seems rather dubious to me (unless there’s something about Nevada > workplace laws I am unaware of). Then the case hinged on the fact that > the grounding pin of the guy’s drill had been removed and thus, "disabled > the GFCI protection" – good gosh, GFCI protection, if there, steps in > when chassis bonding protection fails!
Yes and he dropped the drill before (or as he was) going over the railing although it was still plugged in. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Calvin Henry-Cotnam | "Nothing quite livens up a suburban > DAXaCK associates | neighbourhood like a driveway boasting > Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada | plastic milk crates loaded with crap." > http://home.ica.net/~calvinhc | — John Oakley, radio talk-show host — > NOTE: if replying by email, remove the capital letters!
Response:
> I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is > copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two > wires are run to each box (no ground).
Sounds sort of similar to the original wiring in my 50’s rambler. The wire from each outlet, in each room, were run into the basement ceiling. there they were are connected in the box for the ceiling light which was a pull chain fixture. I had four ceiling lights originally. One each fed the two bedrooms, one light fed the living room and one fed the kitchen. I think the whole house had four fuses for all the lighting/outlets when it was built! I have rewired most of it, mostly from finishing the basement, but still have lots of room in the 200 amp panel. Greg
Response:
>There is no ground. You can’t tell what gauge it is. How do you do >GFCI with no ground?
GFCI-101… A ground fault circuit interrupter senses an imbalance in current between conductors and disconnects the power when that imbalance exceeds some threshold, usually in the order of a few milliamps. A GFCI outlet takes the "line" conductors (hot and neutral) and essentially monitors them to make sure that the current flowing in each is equal to the other. If you were to come in contact with the hot conductor while you were grounded, some current would flow through you to ground instead of returning through the neutral conductor. This imbalance is detected by the GFCI and the power is cut at a low level before it is dangerous to you. No grounding conductor is needed. Code (both the NEC and the CEC) permit replacing non-grounded receptacles with GFCI receptacles where it is not practical to install grounding conductors. As a sidebar: did anyone else here catch the crap the scriptwriters of CSI wrote into that episode where the guy on a construction site was killed by electrocution? I really like CSI, but was rather disappointed with the lack of research, or perhaps out and out falsification, of some of the details regarding GFCI protection. Off the top of my head, the idea of a GFCI protected outlet in that location on the construction site seems rather dubious to me (unless there’s something about Nevada workplace laws I am unaware of). Then the case hinged on the fact that the grounding pin of the guy’s drill had been removed and thus, "disabled the GFCI protection" – good gosh, GFCI protection, if there, steps in when chassis bonding protection fails! — Calvin Henry-Cotnam | "Nothing quite livens up a suburban DAXaCK associates | neighbourhood like a driveway boasting Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada | plastic milk crates loaded with crap." http://home.ica.net/~calvinhc | — John Oakley, radio talk-show host NOTE: if replying by email, remove the capital letters!
Response:
>If the wiring were acceptable, they would still be installing it >today.
Uhhhhhhhhhhh… It is still in the NEC. But let’s go back and use this argument in the 1970s for aluminum wiring. >The insulation is falling apart.
The rubber is brittle. The cloth insulation is fine. This is probably an issue in places. The insulation on the exposed wires is fine, but you are right that if it is brittle in one receptacle then it is probably wearing out in other places unseen. Should I race out and upgrade everything? An electrician and an inspector both saw it and said it was in "fair" condition, but that was before it was disturbed (by me). >There is no ground.
So? >You can’t tell what gauge it is.
Yes, I can. It is 12 or 14 gauge. Either is plenty fine for a 15 amp receptacle. It might be a problem that the breaker is rated for 20 amps, but I assume that the electrician who installed the panel (which was updated in the 1980s) knew what he was doing. There is a permit for that work. Do you feel I should drop down to 15 amp breakers just to be safe? >How do you do GFCI with no ground?
Others have answered this one. It’s *because* I have no ground that I wish to install GFCIs on all outlets. >Do you really need someone to tell you this is less than safe? Get >help from someone who at least knows what the codes are.
I know what the code is. What I didn’t know was what is inside of my walls. I think I do now. It is the old knob and tube wiring, like exists in the attic. Much of the house’s electrical has been upgraded, but not this room. The reason is because the walls have a unique texture to them that should be preserved. The only way to rewire is from the outside, or possibly the crawlspace, but I’m not quite ready for that just yet. Dimitri
Response:
> I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is > copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two > wires are run to each box (no ground). The part that baffles me is that > each receptacle on the same circuit has only two wires in the box (a hot > and a neutral). How in the heck are the receptacles wired if not in a > series? I would’ve expected four wires in each box, except in the one at > the end. So, how exactly is this house wired? It was built in 1929, but > the age of the wiring is undetermined. > Dimitri
It in the Louisiana Super Dome in the early part of February, probably Jan 3, 2002. locally the Mardi Gras crews will have to reschedule their mardi gras pradarades due to the Super Bowl being rescheduled. they are looking for compensation from the NFL, the city of new orleans, the tourist industry and any body else that will come up with some money to offset their additonal cost of their change of date due ot the super bowl.
Response:
> If the wiring were acceptable, they would still be installing it > today. The insulation is falling apart. There is no ground. You > can’t tell what gauge it is. How do you do GFCI with no ground? > Do you really need someone to tell you this is less than safe? Get > help from someone who at least knows what the codes are.
Here’s more of those overly emotional safety conscious concerns. I’ll bet the house was sold and inspected within the last few years or, more recently, and found to be just fine wiring wise. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have no idea where such a junction box would be in the wall, but it must >be there. Is this sort of wiring acceptable? I’ve never seen it. >The insulation is breaking down a little bit (the rubber is brittle) but >it’s hard to tell if the wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge. The breaker is a >20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with >GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. >Dimitri
Response:
If the wiring were acceptable, they would still be installing it today. The insulation is falling apart. There is no ground. You can’t tell what gauge it is. How do you do GFCI with no ground? Do you really need someone to tell you this is less than safe? Get help from someone who at least knows what the codes are. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I have no idea where such a junction box would be in the wall, but it must >be there. Is this sort of wiring acceptable? I’ve never seen it. >The insulation is breaking down a little bit (the rubber is brittle) but >it’s hard to tell if the wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge. The breaker is a >20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with >GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. >Dimitri
Response:
No grounding conductor is needed for a GFCI and, in fact, this application is one of the best uses for a GFCI. The Code specifically recognizes the use of a GFCI recept on 2-wire circuits. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > If the wiring were acceptable, they would still be installing it > today. The insulation is falling apart. There is no ground. You > can’t tell what gauge it is. How do you do GFCI with no ground? > Do you really need someone to tell you this is less than safe? Get > help from someone who at least knows what the codes are. >I have no idea where such a junction box would be in the wall, but it must >be there. Is this sort of wiring acceptable? I’ve never seen it. >The insulation is breaking down a little bit (the rubber is brittle) but >it’s hard to tell if the wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge. The breaker is a >20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with >GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. >Dimitri
Response:
I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two wires are run to each box (no ground). The part that baffles me is that each receptacle on the same circuit has only two wires in the box (a hot and a neutral). How in the heck are the receptacles wired if not in a series? I would’ve expected four wires in each box, except in the one at the end. So, how exactly is this house wired? It was built in 1929, but the age of the wiring is undetermined. Dimitri
Response:
I would think they ran wire from each receptacle to a central box where they connected them all to the line wire. Sounds like it should be completely rewired.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is > copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two > wires are run to each box (no ground). The part that baffles me is that > each receptacle on the same circuit has only two wires in the box (a hot > and a neutral). How in the heck are the receptacles wired if not in a > series? I would’ve expected four wires in each box, except in the one at > the end. So, how exactly is this house wired? It was built in 1929, but > the age of the wiring is undetermined. > Dimitri
Response:
Probably not the original wiring (1929). I think they still used K & T in 29. Most likely updated and each outlet was feed from a junction box somewhere centrally located. This uses a bit more wire but is sometimes easier to do on rewires. If the insulation appears to be in good condition and the wire sized corrected for the breakers, I would not worry about it for general usage outlets. I would try to make sure kitchen, bath and appliance outlets were grounded. Colbyt
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is > copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two > wires are run to each box (no ground). The part that baffles me is that > each receptacle on the same circuit has only two wires in the box (a hot > and a neutral). How in the heck are the receptacles wired if not in a > series? I would’ve expected four wires in each box, except in the one at > the end. So, how exactly is this house wired? It was built in 1929, but > the age of the wiring is undetermined. > Dimitri
Response:
>Probably not the original wiring (1929). I think they still used K & T in >29. Most likely updated and each outlet was feed from a junction box >somewhere centrally located. This uses a bit more wire but is sometimes >easier to do on rewires. If the insulation appears to be in good condition >and the wire sized corrected for the breakers, I would not worry about it >for general usage outlets. I would try to make sure kitchen, bath and >appliance outlets were grounded.
I have no idea where such a junction box would be in the wall, but it must be there. Is this sort of wiring acceptable? I’ve never seen it. The insulation is breaking down a little bit (the rubber is brittle) but it’s hard to tell if the wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge. The breaker is a 20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. Dimitri
Response:
>I would think they ran wire from each receptacle to a central box where they >connected them all to the line wire. Sounds like it should be completely >rewired.
Why would you rewire this? Why is this less safe then wiring in series? Dimitri
Response:
> I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is > copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two > wires are run to each box (no ground). The part that baffles me is that > each receptacle on the same circuit has only two wires in the box (a hot > and a neutral). How in the heck are the receptacles wired if not in a > series? I would’ve expected four wires in each box, except in the one at > the end. So, how exactly is this house wired? It was built in 1929, but > the age of the wiring is undetermined. > Dimitri
You are saying that *each* conductor has a rubber covering and a second outer covering of "cloth". That was the typical wire insulation construction in 1929 and long after, until the introduction of thermoplastics. The wiring system was called "knob and tube" and the splices which you expected to see in the boxes are actually made in the walls by carefully soldering the wires together. Here’s one link that shows the construction: http://www.eaglehomeservices.com/knob%20and%20tube.htm K&T has a very long record of safe use from the turn of the century until (here in OH) around 1965. Admittedly, there are some drawbacks to it, such as lack of grounding provision and possible deterioration of the rubber insulation. Jim
Response:
>Probably not the original wiring (1929). I think they still used K & T in >29. Most likely updated and each outlet was feed from a junction box >somewhere centrally located. This uses a bit more wire but is sometimes
K&T was used after 1929 in some cases, and in some cases alternatives were used before 1929… it depends on the location and the electrician. My house (NE Ohio) was built in 1929 and all the original wiring’s either in rigid conduit or BX cable (and, surprisingly, all but three showed good electrical grounds). The neighbor’s house was built in 1934 and wired with K&T. Incidentally, none of my original outlets were daisy-chained, either. If the wiring is intact and adequate, then add outlets or GFI’s where you need grounded wiring (A-V, computer, kitchen, high-draw circuits, etc). In my case, I had circuits added for the electric dryer, computer and A-V equipment. There was also an existing circuit (110V for stove, basement lights, and boiler transformer) that had been seriously added to – front and back porch outlets, basement outlets, pantry outlets, and fridge. I split all but the pantry to their own circuits, requiring me to replace some wiring in the basement. Doug — The shadow of a dog never bit anyone — Kenneth Copeland The Three R’s of Microsoft: Reboot, Reinstall, fixed in next Release — me Stamp out html e-mails: http://wearcam.org/nomime.htm
Response:
>If the wiring were acceptable, they would still be installing it >today.
Uhhhhhhhhhhh… It is still in the NEC. But let’s go back and use this argument in the 1970s for aluminum wiring. >The insulation is falling apart.
The rubber is brittle. The cloth insulation is fine. This is probably an issue in places. The insulation on the exposed wires is fine, but you are right that if it is brittle in one receptacle then it is probably wearing out in other places unseen. Should I race out and upgrade everything? An electrician and an inspector both saw it and said it was in "fair" condition, but that was before it was disturbed (by me). >There is no ground.
So? >You can’t tell what gauge it is.
Yes, I can. It is 12 or 14 gauge. Either is plenty fine for a 15 amp receptacle. It might be a problem that the breaker is rated for 20 amps, but I assume that the electrician who installed the panel (which was updated in the 1980s) knew what he was doing. There is a permit for that work. Do you feel I should drop down to 15 amp breakers just to be safe? >How do you do GFCI with no ground?
Others have answered this one. It’s *because* I have no ground that I wish to install GFCIs on all outlets. >Do you really need someone to tell you this is less than safe? Get >help from someone who at least knows what the codes are.
I know what the code is. What I didn’t know was what is inside of my walls. I think I do now. It is the old knob and tube wiring, like exists in the attic. Much of the house’s electrical has been upgraded, but not this room. The reason is because the walls have a unique texture to them that should be preserved. The only way to rewire is from the outside, or possibly the crawlspace, but I’m not quite ready for that just yet. Dimitri
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Probably not the original wiring (1929). I think they still used K & T in >29. Most likely updated and each outlet was feed from a junction box >somewhere centrally located. This uses a bit more wire but is sometimes >easier to do on rewires. If the insulation appears to be in good condition >and the wire sized corrected for the breakers, I would not worry about it >for general usage outlets. I would try to make sure kitchen, bath and >appliance outlets were grounded. >I have no idea where such a junction box would be in the wall, but it must >be there. Is this sort of wiring acceptable? I’ve never seen it. >The insulation is breaking down a little bit (the rubber is brittle) but >it’s hard to tell if the wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge. The breaker is a >20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with >GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. >Dimitri
Use your wire strippers to size the wire. If the wire insulation is brittle you need to be concerned about replacing the _wiring_, not the receptacles. Brittle insulation is an indication that the wire has been abused over the years (overloaded with air conditioners, wrong size fuses, high wattage light bulbs etc.). The fact that it’s on a 20 amp circuit is suspect. Most K & T circuits were 15 amp. Since there is evidence of the wire being abused (overheated), the best thing to do is rewire the house. Another alternative would be install AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interupters) in the main panel to protect each circuit (about $35 each). If any arcing occurs from insulation break down or bad connections in the old wiring, the breaker will trip, preventing a fire. If installing the AFCI’s leads to nuisance tripping of the breaker(s), you’ll definitely need to replace the affected circuit(s), but they are still a good investment as they can be used to protect your new wiring. Also, combination AFCI /GFCI circuit breakers are available too. That way you can install regular receptacles at the outlets instead of a GFCI receptacle at each outlet. Rewiring is not as difficult as it seems if you have a basement and/or crawl space and an attic (with a good pitch on the roof). Also, the framing methods used in those old houses make it pretty easy to fish new cable down the walls.
Response:
> I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is > copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two > wires are run to each box (no ground).
Sounds sort of similar to the original wiring in my 50’s rambler. The wire from each outlet, in each room, were run into the basement ceiling. there they were are connected in the box for the ceiling light which was a pull chain fixture. I had four ceiling lights originally. One each fed the two bedrooms, one light fed the living room and one fed the kitchen. I think the whole house had four fuses for all the lighting/outlets when it was built! I have rewired most of it, mostly from finishing the basement, but still have lots of room in the 200 amp panel. Greg
Response:
> As a sidebar: did anyone else here catch the crap the scriptwriters of > CSI wrote into that episode where the guy on a construction site was > killed by electrocution? I really like CSI, but was rather disappointed > with the lack of research, or perhaps out and out falsification, of > some of the details regarding GFCI protection. Off the top of my head, > the idea of a GFCI protected outlet in that location on the construction > site seems rather dubious to me (unless there’s something about Nevada > workplace laws I am unaware of). Then the case hinged on the fact that > the grounding pin of the guy’s drill had been removed and thus, "disabled > the GFCI protection" – good gosh, GFCI protection, if there, steps in > when chassis bonding protection fails!
Yes and he dropped the drill before (or as he was) going over the railing although it was still plugged in. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Calvin Henry-Cotnam | "Nothing quite livens up a suburban > DAXaCK associates | neighbourhood like a driveway boasting > Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada | plastic milk crates loaded with crap." > http://home.ica.net/~calvinhc | — John Oakley, radio talk-show host — > NOTE: if replying by email, remove the capital letters!
Response:
Your house is probably wired the same way mine was. In the attic (or basement, whatever), each circuit has a main ‘trunk’ line running the length of the house. It consists of separate hot and neutral wires run side by side. Wherever an outlet was needed, they just stripped the trunk wires, and attached a ‘drop’ wire to run down to a particular outlet or light switch. This drop wire is an early form of Romex. The attachment points are twisted and soldered then wrapped with tape. No boxes are used. Dennis
Response:
>20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with >GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult.
um… you really only have to place one per circuit…. wires come into the box, into the GFCI, then out of the GFCI. Feed the rest of the circuits from the output of the GFCI (I think it’s marked "Load") and they should be protected… The instructions which come with the receptical should tell you exact details… be safe, flip ^___^ ^.^/ ==u==
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with >GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. > um… you really only have to place one per circuit…. > wires come into the box, into the GFCI, then out of the GFCI. > Feed the rest of the circuits from the output of the GFCI (I think > it’s marked "Load") and they should be protected… The instructions > which come with the receptical should tell you exact details… > be safe, > flip > ^___^ > ^.^/ > ==u==
Doesn’t apply to the original poster’s situation; he has K&T wiring with only *2* wires in each box, no feed-thru. It *would* be possible though to replace the branch CB with a GFI breaker. Jim
Response:
>Doesn’t apply to the original poster’s situation; >he has K&T wiring with only *2* wires in each box, >no feed-thru.
i realize that, and probably should have said so in my post… I thought that if he were rewireing anyway, he could restructure his wiring to accomodate. >It *would* be possible though to replace the branch CB >with a GFI breaker.
Alternatly… install a box and receptacle just outside of the breaker panel, and feed the rest of the circuit from there… probably less expensive than a GFCI breaker. — be safe, flip ^___^ ^.^/ ==u==
Response:
>>Doesn’t apply to the original poster’s situation; >he has K&T wiring with only *2* wires in each box, >no feed-thru. >i realize that, and probably should have said so in my post… >I thought that if he were rewireing anyway, he could restructure his >wiring to accomodate.
I am not rewiring. Your plan was my original plan, but the best laid plans of mice and men… >It *would* be possible though to replace the branch CB >with a GFI breaker. >Alternatly… install a box and receptacle just outside of the breaker >panel, and feed the rest of the circuit from there… >probably less expensive than a GFCI breaker.
Yes, but the reason for replacing the receptacles is to be able to plug in devices with three prongs. Installing a GFCI breaker doesn’t solve that problem. Dimitri
Response:
>If the wiring were acceptable, they would still be installing it >today. > Uhhhhhhhhhhh… It is still in the NEC.
Which just means it’s not blatantly unsafe. > But let’s go back and use this argument in the 1970s for aluminum wiring. >The insulation is falling apart. > The rubber is brittle. The cloth insulation is fine. This is probably > an issue in places. The insulation on the exposed wires is fine, but > you are right that if it is brittle in one receptacle then it is probably > wearing out in other places unseen. Should I race out and upgrade > everything? An electrician and an inspector both saw it and said it was > in "fair" condition, but that was before it was disturbed (by me).
what you should do is "Meg" the wires. Go back and find where the drop outs are or if necesary go into the panel and put a megaohmeter on the line. It will tell you if the insulation is failing. It’s probably adequate, and don’t put in GFI’s and Grounded outlets unless it’s neccesary for safety. Because modern electronics really want a ground, and if it’s not grounded, they get a little funky and you don’t know why. Better to have ungrounded outlets so the user knows or placard each outlet as "Ungrounded/GFI protected". given you don’t want to wreck the walls, just add an additional service outlet in some discrete location where the walls will be okay. >There is no ground. > So?
fucks up digital electronics. Grounds really add an intangible level of safety. >You can’t tell what gauge it is. > Yes, I can. It is 12 or 14 gauge. Either is plenty fine for a 15 amp > receptacle. It might be a problem that the breaker is rated for 20 amps, > but I assume that the electrician who installed the panel (which was > updated in the 1980s) knew what he was doing. There is a permit for that > work. Do you feel I should drop down to 15 amp breakers just to be safe?
wouldn’t hurt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->How do you do GFCI with no ground? > Others have answered this one. It’s *because* I have no ground that I > wish to install GFCIs on all outlets. >Do you really need someone to tell you this is less than safe? Get >help from someone who at least knows what the codes are. > I know what the code is. What I didn’t know was what is inside of my walls. > I think I do now. It is the old knob and tube wiring, like exists in the > attic.
Okay if the attic is K&T, then this is primitive romex. K&T is fine, but i’d upgrade on major outlets, such as Refrigerators, Kitchen, TV, etc…. Old houses are a PITA to update. > Much of the house’s electrical has been upgraded, but not this > room. The reason is because the walls have a unique texture to them that > should be preserved. The only way to rewire is from the outside, or > possibly the crawlspace, but I’m not quite ready for that just yet.
Okay, bite the tubesteak slowly Crawlspace work is best done in early spring before the creepy crawlies wake up – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dimitri
Response:
No grounding conductor is needed for a GFCI and, in fact, this application is one of the best uses for a GFCI. The Code specifically recognizes the use of a GFCI recept on 2-wire circuits. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > If the wiring were acceptable, they would still be installing it > today. The insulation is falling apart. There is no ground. You > can’t tell what gauge it is. How do you do GFCI with no ground? > Do you really need someone to tell you this is less than safe? Get > help from someone who at least knows what the codes are. >I have no idea where such a junction box would be in the wall, but it must >be there. Is this sort of wiring acceptable? I’ve never seen it. >The insulation is breaking down a little bit (the rubber is brittle) but >it’s hard to tell if the wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge. The breaker is a >20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with >GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. >Dimitri
Response:
> If the wiring were acceptable, they would still be installing it > today. The insulation is falling apart. There is no ground. You > can’t tell what gauge it is. How do you do GFCI with no ground? > Do you really need someone to tell you this is less than safe? Get > help from someone who at least knows what the codes are.
Here’s more of those overly emotional safety conscious concerns. I’ll bet the house was sold and inspected within the last few years or, more recently, and found to be just fine wiring wise. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have no idea where such a junction box would be in the wall, but it must >be there. Is this sort of wiring acceptable? I’ve never seen it. >The insulation is breaking down a little bit (the rubber is brittle) but >it’s hard to tell if the wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge. The breaker is a >20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with >GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. >Dimitri
Response:
> I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is > copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two > wires are run to each box (no ground). The part that baffles me is that > each receptacle on the same circuit has only two wires in the box (a hot > and a neutral). How in the heck are the receptacles wired if not in a > series? I would’ve expected four wires in each box, except in the one at > the end. So, how exactly is this house wired? It was built in 1929, but > the age of the wiring is undetermined. > Dimitri
It in the Louisiana Super Dome in the early part of February, probably Jan 3, 2002. locally the Mardi Gras crews will have to reschedule their mardi gras pradarades due to the Super Bowl being rescheduled. they are looking for compensation from the NFL, the city of new orleans, the tourist industry and any body else that will come up with some money to offset their additonal cost of their change of date due ot the super bowl.
Response:
>There is no ground. You can’t tell what gauge it is. How do you do >GFCI with no ground?
GFCI-101… A ground fault circuit interrupter senses an imbalance in current between conductors and disconnects the power when that imbalance exceeds some threshold, usually in the order of a few milliamps. A GFCI outlet takes the "line" conductors (hot and neutral) and essentially monitors them to make sure that the current flowing in each is equal to the other. If you were to come in contact with the hot conductor while you were grounded, some current would flow through you to ground instead of returning through the neutral conductor. This imbalance is detected by the GFCI and the power is cut at a low level before it is dangerous to you. No grounding conductor is needed. Code (both the NEC and the CEC) permit replacing non-grounded receptacles with GFCI receptacles where it is not practical to install grounding conductors. As a sidebar: did anyone else here catch the crap the scriptwriters of CSI wrote into that episode where the guy on a construction site was killed by electrocution? I really like CSI, but was rather disappointed with the lack of research, or perhaps out and out falsification, of some of the details regarding GFCI protection. Off the top of my head, the idea of a GFCI protected outlet in that location on the construction site seems rather dubious to me (unless there’s something about Nevada workplace laws I am unaware of). Then the case hinged on the fact that the grounding pin of the guy’s drill had been removed and thus, "disabled the GFCI protection" – good gosh, GFCI protection, if there, steps in when chassis bonding protection fails! — Calvin Henry-Cotnam | "Nothing quite livens up a suburban DAXaCK associates | neighbourhood like a driveway boasting Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada | plastic milk crates loaded with crap." http://home.ica.net/~calvinhc | — John Oakley, radio talk-show host NOTE: if replying by email, remove the capital letters!
Response:
Probably not the original wiring (1929). I think they still used K & T in 29. Most likely updated and each outlet was feed from a junction box somewhere centrally located. This uses a bit more wire but is sometimes easier to do on rewires. If the insulation appears to be in good condition and the wire sized corrected for the breakers, I would not worry about it for general usage outlets. I would try to make sure kitchen, bath and appliance outlets were grounded. Colbyt
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is > copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two > wires are run to each box (no ground). The part that baffles me is that > each receptacle on the same circuit has only two wires in the box (a hot > and a neutral). How in the heck are the receptacles wired if not in a > series? I would’ve expected four wires in each box, except in the one at > the end. So, how exactly is this house wired? It was built in 1929, but > the age of the wiring is undetermined. > Dimitri
Response:
>I would think they ran wire from each receptacle to a central box where they >connected them all to the line wire. Sounds like it should be completely >rewired.
Wow! homerun wireing in 1929! now that’s foresite! 
my guess would be a pair of wires (Knob/tube) which are tapped any time you have an outlet. — be safe, flip ^___^ ^.^/ ==u==
Response:
>Probably not the original wiring (1929). I think they still used K & T in >29. Most likely updated and each outlet was feed from a junction box >somewhere centrally located. This uses a bit more wire but is sometimes >easier to do on rewires. If the insulation appears to be in good condition >and the wire sized corrected for the breakers, I would not worry about it >for general usage outlets. I would try to make sure kitchen, bath and >appliance outlets were grounded.
I have no idea where such a junction box would be in the wall, but it must be there. Is this sort of wiring acceptable? I’ve never seen it. The insulation is breaking down a little bit (the rubber is brittle) but it’s hard to tell if the wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge. The breaker is a 20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. Dimitri
Response:
>I would think they ran wire from each receptacle to a central box where they >connected them all to the line wire. Sounds like it should be completely >rewired.
Why would you rewire this? Why is this less safe then wiring in series? Dimitri
Response:
> I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is > copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two > wires are run to each box (no ground). The part that baffles me is that > each receptacle on the same circuit has only two wires in the box (a hot > and a neutral). How in the heck are the receptacles wired if not in a > series? I would’ve expected four wires in each box, except in the one at > the end. So, how exactly is this house wired? It was built in 1929, but > the age of the wiring is undetermined. > Dimitri
You are saying that *each* conductor has a rubber covering and a second outer covering of "cloth". That was the typical wire insulation construction in 1929 and long after, until the introduction of thermoplastics. The wiring system was called "knob and tube" and the splices which you expected to see in the boxes are actually made in the walls by carefully soldering the wires together. Here’s one link that shows the construction: http://www.eaglehomeservices.com/knob%20and%20tube.htm K&T has a very long record of safe use from the turn of the century until (here in OH) around 1965. Admittedly, there are some drawbacks to it, such as lack of grounding provision and possible deterioration of the rubber insulation. Jim
Response:
If the wiring were acceptable, they would still be installing it today. The insulation is falling apart. There is no ground. You can’t tell what gauge it is. How do you do GFCI with no ground? Do you really need someone to tell you this is less than safe? Get help from someone who at least knows what the codes are. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I have no idea where such a junction box would be in the wall, but it must >be there. Is this sort of wiring acceptable? I’ve never seen it. >The insulation is breaking down a little bit (the rubber is brittle) but >it’s hard to tell if the wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge. The breaker is a >20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with >GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. >Dimitri
Response:
Also note that in many older homes, many outlets are fed from the ceiling fixture. From the ceiling they hit the wall sconces. You were lucky to get 2 outlets in any 1 room, and often appliances such as irons, toasters and even christmas lights came with a standard edison base screw-shell "plug" instead of a 2-pronged edison plug. I re-wired a home in Brooklyn that had 3 circuits originally. 1st floor & basement, (15a – 2 lights in bsmt,no outlets, front door light-foyer light- 2 livingroom sconces, 2 livingroom outlets, hallway light, stairwell light, diningroom light, 2 diningroom outlets, kitchen light & side-door light.) 2nd floor, (15a 2 outlets per bedroom & 3 bedroom lights, hall light, stairwell light, bathroom light. No bathroom outlet) Kitchen outlets. Of course, back then you didn’t have TV, VCRs, stereos, boilers ran on coal only, there wasn’t a cordless anything (except cordless shovels) and when it got dark you went to bed. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Response:
>Probably not the original wiring (1929). I think they still used K & T in >29. Most likely updated and each outlet was feed from a junction box >somewhere centrally located. This uses a bit more wire but is sometimes
K&T was used after 1929 in some cases, and in some cases alternatives were used before 1929… it depends on the location and the electrician. My house (NE Ohio) was built in 1929 and all the original wiring’s either in rigid conduit or BX cable (and, surprisingly, all but three showed good electrical grounds). The neighbor’s house was built in 1934 and wired with K&T. Incidentally, none of my original outlets were daisy-chained, either. If the wiring is intact and adequate, then add outlets or GFI’s where you need grounded wiring (A-V, computer, kitchen, high-draw circuits, etc). In my case, I had circuits added for the electric dryer, computer and A-V equipment. There was also an existing circuit (110V for stove, basement lights, and boiler transformer) that had been seriously added to – front and back porch outlets, basement outlets, pantry outlets, and fridge. I split all but the pantry to their own circuits, requiring me to replace some wiring in the basement. Doug — The shadow of a dog never bit anyone — Kenneth Copeland The Three R’s of Microsoft: Reboot, Reinstall, fixed in next Release — me Stamp out html e-mails: http://wearcam.org/nomime.htm
Response:
I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two wires are run to each box (no ground). The part that baffles me is that each receptacle on the same circuit has only two wires in the box (a hot and a neutral). How in the heck are the receptacles wired if not in a series? I would’ve expected four wires in each box, except in the one at the end. So, how exactly is this house wired? It was built in 1929, but the age of the wiring is undetermined. Dimitri
Response:
I would think they ran wire from each receptacle to a central box where they connected them all to the line wire. Sounds like it should be completely rewired.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is > copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two > wires are run to each box (no ground). The part that baffles me is that > each receptacle on the same circuit has only two wires in the box (a hot > and a neutral). How in the heck are the receptacles wired if not in a > series? I would’ve expected four wires in each box, except in the one at > the end. So, how exactly is this house wired? It was built in 1929, but > the age of the wiring is undetermined. > Dimitri
Response:
>If the wiring were acceptable, they would still be installing it >today.
Uhhhhhhhhhhh… It is still in the NEC. But let’s go back and use this argument in the 1970s for aluminum wiring. >The insulation is falling apart.
The rubber is brittle. The cloth insulation is fine. This is probably an issue in places. The insulation on the exposed wires is fine, but you are right that if it is brittle in one receptacle then it is probably wearing out in other places unseen. Should I race out and upgrade everything? An electrician and an inspector both saw it and said it was in "fair" condition, but that was before it was disturbed (by me). >There is no ground.
So? >You can’t tell what gauge it is.
Yes, I can. It is 12 or 14 gauge. Either is plenty fine for a 15 amp receptacle. It might be a problem that the breaker is rated for 20 amps, but I assume that the electrician who installed the panel (which was updated in the 1980s) knew what he was doing. There is a permit for that work. Do you feel I should drop down to 15 amp breakers just to be safe? >How do you do GFCI with no ground?
Others have answered this one. It’s *because* I have no ground that I wish to install GFCIs on all outlets. >Do you really need someone to tell you this is less than safe? Get >help from someone who at least knows what the codes are.
I know what the code is. What I didn’t know was what is inside of my walls. I think I do now. It is the old knob and tube wiring, like exists in the attic. Much of the house’s electrical has been upgraded, but not this room. The reason is because the walls have a unique texture to them that should be preserved. The only way to rewire is from the outside, or possibly the crawlspace, but I’m not quite ready for that just yet. Dimitri
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Probably not the original wiring (1929). I think they still used K & T in >29. Most likely updated and each outlet was feed from a junction box >somewhere centrally located. This uses a bit more wire but is sometimes >easier to do on rewires. If the insulation appears to be in good condition >and the wire sized corrected for the breakers, I would not worry about it >for general usage outlets. I would try to make sure kitchen, bath and >appliance outlets were grounded. >I have no idea where such a junction box would be in the wall, but it must >be there. Is this sort of wiring acceptable? I’ve never seen it. >The insulation is breaking down a little bit (the rubber is brittle) but >it’s hard to tell if the wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge. The breaker is a >20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with >GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. >Dimitri
Use your wire strippers to size the wire. If the wire insulation is brittle you need to be concerned about replacing the _wiring_, not the receptacles. Brittle insulation is an indication that the wire has been abused over the years (overloaded with air conditioners, wrong size fuses, high wattage light bulbs etc.). The fact that it’s on a 20 amp circuit is suspect. Most K & T circuits were 15 amp. Since there is evidence of the wire being abused (overheated), the best thing to do is rewire the house. Another alternative would be install AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interupters) in the main panel to protect each circuit (about $35 each). If any arcing occurs from insulation break down or bad connections in the old wiring, the breaker will trip, preventing a fire. If installing the AFCI’s leads to nuisance tripping of the breaker(s), you’ll definitely need to replace the affected circuit(s), but they are still a good investment as they can be used to protect your new wiring. Also, combination AFCI /GFCI circuit breakers are available too. That way you can install regular receptacles at the outlets instead of a GFCI receptacle at each outlet. Rewiring is not as difficult as it seems if you have a basement and/or crawl space and an attic (with a good pitch on the roof). Also, the framing methods used in those old houses make it pretty easy to fish new cable down the walls.
Response:
> I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is > copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two > wires are run to each box (no ground).
Sounds sort of similar to the original wiring in my 50’s rambler. The wire from each outlet, in each room, were run into the basement ceiling. there they were are connected in the box for the ceiling light which was a pull chain fixture. I had four ceiling lights originally. One each fed the two bedrooms, one light fed the living room and one fed the kitchen. I think the whole house had four fuses for all the lighting/outlets when it was built! I have rewired most of it, mostly from finishing the basement, but still have lots of room in the 200 amp panel. Greg
Response:
> As a sidebar: did anyone else here catch the crap the scriptwriters of > CSI wrote into that episode where the guy on a construction site was > killed by electrocution? I really like CSI, but was rather disappointed > with the lack of research, or perhaps out and out falsification, of > some of the details regarding GFCI protection. Off the top of my head, > the idea of a GFCI protected outlet in that location on the construction > site seems rather dubious to me (unless there’s something about Nevada > workplace laws I am unaware of). Then the case hinged on the fact that > the grounding pin of the guy’s drill had been removed and thus, "disabled > the GFCI protection" – good gosh, GFCI protection, if there, steps in > when chassis bonding protection fails!
Yes and he dropped the drill before (or as he was) going over the railing although it was still plugged in. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Calvin Henry-Cotnam | "Nothing quite livens up a suburban > DAXaCK associates | neighbourhood like a driveway boasting > Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada | plastic milk crates loaded with crap." > http://home.ica.net/~calvinhc | — John Oakley, radio talk-show host — > NOTE: if replying by email, remove the capital letters!
Response:
Your house is probably wired the same way mine was. In the attic (or basement, whatever), each circuit has a main ‘trunk’ line running the length of the house. It consists of separate hot and neutral wires run side by side. Wherever an outlet was needed, they just stripped the trunk wires, and attached a ‘drop’ wire to run down to a particular outlet or light switch. This drop wire is an early form of Romex. The attachment points are twisted and soldered then wrapped with tape. No boxes are used. Dennis
Response:
>20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with >GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult.
um… you really only have to place one per circuit…. wires come into the box, into the GFCI, then out of the GFCI. Feed the rest of the circuits from the output of the GFCI (I think it’s marked "Load") and they should be protected… The instructions which come with the receptical should tell you exact details… be safe, flip ^___^ ^.^/ ==u==
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with >GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. > um… you really only have to place one per circuit…. > wires come into the box, into the GFCI, then out of the GFCI. > Feed the rest of the circuits from the output of the GFCI (I think > it’s marked "Load") and they should be protected… The instructions > which come with the receptical should tell you exact details… > be safe, > flip > ^___^ > ^.^/ > ==u==
Doesn’t apply to the original poster’s situation; he has K&T wiring with only *2* wires in each box, no feed-thru. It *would* be possible though to replace the branch CB with a GFI breaker. Jim
Response:
>Doesn’t apply to the original poster’s situation; >he has K&T wiring with only *2* wires in each box, >no feed-thru.
i realize that, and probably should have said so in my post… I thought that if he were rewireing anyway, he could restructure his wiring to accomodate. >It *would* be possible though to replace the branch CB >with a GFI breaker.
Alternatly… install a box and receptacle just outside of the breaker panel, and feed the rest of the circuit from there… probably less expensive than a GFCI breaker. — be safe, flip ^___^ ^.^/ ==u==
Response:
>>Doesn’t apply to the original poster’s situation; >he has K&T wiring with only *2* wires in each box, >no feed-thru. >i realize that, and probably should have said so in my post… >I thought that if he were rewireing anyway, he could restructure his >wiring to accomodate.
I am not rewiring. Your plan was my original plan, but the best laid plans of mice and men… >It *would* be possible though to replace the branch CB >with a GFI breaker. >Alternatly… install a box and receptacle just outside of the breaker >panel, and feed the rest of the circuit from there… >probably less expensive than a GFCI breaker.
Yes, but the reason for replacing the receptacles is to be able to plug in devices with three prongs. Installing a GFCI breaker doesn’t solve that problem. Dimitri
Response:
>If the wiring were acceptable, they would still be installing it >today. > Uhhhhhhhhhhh… It is still in the NEC.
Which just means it’s not blatantly unsafe. > But let’s go back and use this argument in the 1970s for aluminum wiring. >The insulation is falling apart. > The rubber is brittle. The cloth insulation is fine. This is probably > an issue in places. The insulation on the exposed wires is fine, but > you are right that if it is brittle in one receptacle then it is probably > wearing out in other places unseen. Should I race out and upgrade > everything? An electrician and an inspector both saw it and said it was > in "fair" condition, but that was before it was disturbed (by me).
what you should do is "Meg" the wires. Go back and find where the drop outs are or if necesary go into the panel and put a megaohmeter on the line. It will tell you if the insulation is failing. It’s probably adequate, and don’t put in GFI’s and Grounded outlets unless it’s neccesary for safety. Because modern electronics really want a ground, and if it’s not grounded, they get a little funky and you don’t know why. Better to have ungrounded outlets so the user knows or placard each outlet as "Ungrounded/GFI protected". given you don’t want to wreck the walls, just add an additional service outlet in some discrete location where the walls will be okay. >There is no ground. > So?
fucks up digital electronics. Grounds really add an intangible level of safety. >You can’t tell what gauge it is. > Yes, I can. It is 12 or 14 gauge. Either is plenty fine for a 15 amp > receptacle. It might be a problem that the breaker is rated for 20 amps, > but I assume that the electrician who installed the panel (which was > updated in the 1980s) knew what he was doing. There is a permit for that > work. Do you feel I should drop down to 15 amp breakers just to be safe?
wouldn’t hurt. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->How do you do GFCI with no ground? > Others have answered this one. It’s *because* I have no ground that I > wish to install GFCIs on all outlets. >Do you really need someone to tell you this is less than safe? Get >help from someone who at least knows what the codes are. > I know what the code is. What I didn’t know was what is inside of my walls. > I think I do now. It is the old knob and tube wiring, like exists in the > attic.
Okay if the attic is K&T, then this is primitive romex. K&T is fine, but i’d upgrade on major outlets, such as Refrigerators, Kitchen, TV, etc…. Old houses are a PITA to update. > Much of the house’s electrical has been upgraded, but not this > room. The reason is because the walls have a unique texture to them that > should be preserved. The only way to rewire is from the outside, or > possibly the crawlspace, but I’m not quite ready for that just yet.
Okay, bite the tubesteak slowly Crawlspace work is best done in early spring before the creepy crawlies wake up – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dimitri
Response:
No grounding conductor is needed for a GFCI and, in fact, this application is one of the best uses for a GFCI. The Code specifically recognizes the use of a GFCI recept on 2-wire circuits. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > If the wiring were acceptable, they would still be installing it > today. The insulation is falling apart. There is no ground. You > can’t tell what gauge it is. How do you do GFCI with no ground? > Do you really need someone to tell you this is less than safe? Get > help from someone who at least knows what the codes are. >I have no idea where such a junction box would be in the wall, but it must >be there. Is this sort of wiring acceptable? I’ve never seen it. >The insulation is breaking down a little bit (the rubber is brittle) but >it’s hard to tell if the wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge. The breaker is a >20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with >GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. >Dimitri
Response:
> If the wiring were acceptable, they would still be installing it > today. The insulation is falling apart. There is no ground. You > can’t tell what gauge it is. How do you do GFCI with no ground? > Do you really need someone to tell you this is less than safe? Get > help from someone who at least knows what the codes are.
Here’s more of those overly emotional safety conscious concerns. I’ll bet the house was sold and inspected within the last few years or, more recently, and found to be just fine wiring wise. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have no idea where such a junction box would be in the wall, but it must >be there. Is this sort of wiring acceptable? I’ve never seen it. >The insulation is breaking down a little bit (the rubber is brittle) but >it’s hard to tell if the wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge. The breaker is a >20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with >GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. >Dimitri
Response:
> I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is > copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two > wires are run to each box (no ground). The part that baffles me is that > each receptacle on the same circuit has only two wires in the box (a hot > and a neutral). How in the heck are the receptacles wired if not in a > series? I would’ve expected four wires in each box, except in the one at > the end. So, how exactly is this house wired? It was built in 1929, but > the age of the wiring is undetermined. > Dimitri
It in the Louisiana Super Dome in the early part of February, probably Jan 3, 2002. locally the Mardi Gras crews will have to reschedule their mardi gras pradarades due to the Super Bowl being rescheduled. they are looking for compensation from the NFL, the city of new orleans, the tourist industry and any body else that will come up with some money to offset their additonal cost of their change of date due ot the super bowl.
Response:
>There is no ground. You can’t tell what gauge it is. How do you do >GFCI with no ground?
GFCI-101… A ground fault circuit interrupter senses an imbalance in current between conductors and disconnects the power when that imbalance exceeds some threshold, usually in the order of a few milliamps. A GFCI outlet takes the "line" conductors (hot and neutral) and essentially monitors them to make sure that the current flowing in each is equal to the other. If you were to come in contact with the hot conductor while you were grounded, some current would flow through you to ground instead of returning through the neutral conductor. This imbalance is detected by the GFCI and the power is cut at a low level before it is dangerous to you. No grounding conductor is needed. Code (both the NEC and the CEC) permit replacing non-grounded receptacles with GFCI receptacles where it is not practical to install grounding conductors. As a sidebar: did anyone else here catch the crap the scriptwriters of CSI wrote into that episode where the guy on a construction site was killed by electrocution? I really like CSI, but was rather disappointed with the lack of research, or perhaps out and out falsification, of some of the details regarding GFCI protection. Off the top of my head, the idea of a GFCI protected outlet in that location on the construction site seems rather dubious to me (unless there’s something about Nevada workplace laws I am unaware of). Then the case hinged on the fact that the grounding pin of the guy’s drill had been removed and thus, "disabled the GFCI protection" – good gosh, GFCI protection, if there, steps in when chassis bonding protection fails! — Calvin Henry-Cotnam | "Nothing quite livens up a suburban DAXaCK associates | neighbourhood like a driveway boasting Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada | plastic milk crates loaded with crap." http://home.ica.net/~calvinhc | — John Oakley, radio talk-show host NOTE: if replying by email, remove the capital letters!
Response:
Probably not the original wiring (1929). I think they still used K & T in 29. Most likely updated and each outlet was feed from a junction box somewhere centrally located. This uses a bit more wire but is sometimes easier to do on rewires. If the insulation appears to be in good condition and the wire sized corrected for the breakers, I would not worry about it for general usage outlets. I would try to make sure kitchen, bath and appliance outlets were grounded. Colbyt
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is > copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two > wires are run to each box (no ground). The part that baffles me is that > each receptacle on the same circuit has only two wires in the box (a hot > and a neutral). How in the heck are the receptacles wired if not in a > series? I would’ve expected four wires in each box, except in the one at > the end. So, how exactly is this house wired? It was built in 1929, but > the age of the wiring is undetermined. > Dimitri
Response:
>I would think they ran wire from each receptacle to a central box where they >connected them all to the line wire. Sounds like it should be completely >rewired.
Wow! homerun wireing in 1929! now that’s foresite! my guess would be a pair of wires (Knob/tube) which are tapped any time you have an outlet. — be safe, flip ^___^ ^.^/ ==u==
Response:
>Probably not the original wiring (1929). I think they still used K & T in >29. Most likely updated and each outlet was feed from a junction box >somewhere centrally located. This uses a bit more wire but is sometimes >easier to do on rewires. If the insulation appears to be in good condition >and the wire sized corrected for the breakers, I would not worry about it >for general usage outlets. I would try to make sure kitchen, bath and >appliance outlets were grounded.
I have no idea where such a junction box would be in the wall, but it must be there. Is this sort of wiring acceptable? I’ve never seen it. The insulation is breaking down a little bit (the rubber is brittle) but it’s hard to tell if the wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge. The breaker is a 20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. Dimitri
Response:
>I would think they ran wire from each receptacle to a central box where they >connected them all to the line wire. Sounds like it should be completely >rewired.
Why would you rewire this? Why is this less safe then wiring in series? Dimitri
Response:
> I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is > copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two > wires are run to each box (no ground). The part that baffles me is that > each receptacle on the same circuit has only two wires in the box (a hot > and a neutral). How in the heck are the receptacles wired if not in a > series? I would’ve expected four wires in each box, except in the one at > the end. So, how exactly is this house wired? It was built in 1929, but > the age of the wiring is undetermined. > Dimitri
You are saying that *each* conductor has a rubber covering and a second outer covering of "cloth". That was the typical wire insulation construction in 1929 and long after, until the introduction of thermoplastics. The wiring system was called "knob and tube" and the splices which you expected to see in the boxes are actually made in the walls by carefully soldering the wires together. Here’s one link that shows the construction: http://www.eaglehomeservices.com/knob%20and%20tube.htm K&T has a very long record of safe use from the turn of the century until (here in OH) around 1965. Admittedly, there are some drawbacks to it, such as lack of grounding provision and possible deterioration of the rubber insulation. Jim
Response:
If the wiring were acceptable, they would still be installing it today. The insulation is falling apart. There is no ground. You can’t tell what gauge it is. How do you do GFCI with no ground? Do you really need someone to tell you this is less than safe? Get help from someone who at least knows what the codes are. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I have no idea where such a junction box would be in the wall, but it must >be there. Is this sort of wiring acceptable? I’ve never seen it. >The insulation is breaking down a little bit (the rubber is brittle) but >it’s hard to tell if the wire is 12 gauge or 14 gauge. The breaker is a >20 amp breaker. I intended to replace *all* of these receptacles with >GFCI receptacles. Re-wiring would be very, very difficult. >Dimitri
Response:
Also note that in many older homes, many outlets are fed from the ceiling fixture. From the ceiling they hit the wall sconces. You were lucky to get 2 outlets in any 1 room, and often appliances such as irons, toasters and even christmas lights came with a standard edison base screw-shell "plug" instead of a 2-pronged edison plug. I re-wired a home in Brooklyn that had 3 circuits originally. 1st floor & basement, (15a – 2 lights in bsmt,no outlets, front door light-foyer light- 2 livingroom sconces, 2 livingroom outlets, hallway light, stairwell light, diningroom light, 2 diningroom outlets, kitchen light & side-door light.) 2nd floor, (15a 2 outlets per bedroom & 3 bedroom lights, hall light, stairwell light, bathroom light. No bathroom outlet) Kitchen outlets. Of course, back then you didn’t have TV, VCRs, stereos, boilers ran on coal only, there wasn’t a cordless anything (except cordless shovels) and when it got dark you went to bed. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Response:
>Probably not the original wiring (1929). I think they still used K & T in >29. Most likely updated and each outlet was feed from a junction box >somewhere centrally located. This uses a bit more wire but is sometimes
K&T was used after 1929 in some cases, and in some cases alternatives were used before 1929… it depends on the location and the electrician. My house (NE Ohio) was built in 1929 and all the original wiring’s either in rigid conduit or BX cable (and, surprisingly, all but three showed good electrical grounds). The neighbor’s house was built in 1934 and wired with K&T. Incidentally, none of my original outlets were daisy-chained, either. If the wiring is intact and adequate, then add outlets or GFI’s where you need grounded wiring (A-V, computer, kitchen, high-draw circuits, etc). In my case, I had circuits added for the electric dryer, computer and A-V equipment. There was also an existing circuit (110V for stove, basement lights, and boiler transformer) that had been seriously added to – front and back porch outlets, basement outlets, pantry outlets, and fridge. I split all but the pantry to their own circuits, requiring me to replace some wiring in the basement. Doug — The shadow of a dog never bit anyone — Kenneth Copeland The Three R’s of Microsoft: Reboot, Reinstall, fixed in next Release — me Stamp out html e-mails: http://wearcam.org/nomime.htm
Response:
I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two wires are run to each box (no ground). The part that baffles me is that each receptacle on the same circuit has only two wires in the box (a hot and a neutral). How in the heck are the receptacles wired if not in a series? I would’ve expected four wires in each box, except in the one at the end. So, how exactly is this house wired? It was built in 1929, but the age of the wiring is undetermined. Dimitri
Response:
I would think they ran wire from each receptacle to a central box where they connected them all to the line wire. Sounds like it should be completely rewired.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am replacing the outlets in my living room. The wiring coming in is > copper wiring with a rubber sheath and a cloth covering over that. Two > wires are run to each box (no ground). The part that baffles me is that > each receptacle on the same circuit has only two wires in the box (a hot > and a neutral). How in the heck are the receptacles wired if not in a > series? I would’ve expected four wires in each box, except in the one at > the end. So, how exactly is this house wired? It was built in 1929, but > the age of the wiring is undetermined. > Dimitri
If you like this post and would like to receive updates from this blog, please subscribe our feed.