Consumer Homes.

Question:

I have a very well insullated house.  In addition, the house faces south and i have a lot of south facing windows.  About 40% of my gas bill is for my clothes dryer.  Years ago I saw a heat exchanger that you could put in the exhaust pipe.  It didn’t seem very efficient at the time.  Are there any new models/designs that are availaable?

Response:

You wouldn’t be able to deal with all that humidity unless you have a heat exhanger in the circuit. You will then have a clogging problem from all that clothes lint. Disconnect your dryer outlet for a few laods and see. Keep the duster handy for the next few months.

I have a very well insullated house.  In addition, the house faces south and i have a lot of south facing windows.  About 40% of my gas bill is for my clothes dryer.  Years ago I saw a heat exchanger that you could put in the exhaust pipe.  It didn’t seem very efficient at the time.  Are there any new models/designs that are availaable?

Response:

> You wouldn’t be able to deal with all that humidity unless you have a heat > exhanger in the circuit. You will then have a clogging problem from all that > clothes lint. > Disconnect your dryer outlet for a few laods and see. Keep the duster handy > for the next few months.

DO NOT DISCONNECT THE DRYER OUTLET ON A GAS DRYER. Can you say CO poisoning and death? — Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

Response:

Good point!   I haven’t run a gas dryer yet. I do run my gas stove indoors all the time though.

> You wouldn’t be able to deal with all that humidity unless you have a heat > exhanger in the circuit. You will then have a clogging problem from all that > clothes lint. > Disconnect your dryer outlet for a few laods and see. Keep the duster handy > for the next few months.

DO NOT DISCONNECT THE DRYER OUTLET ON A GAS DRYER. Can you say CO poisoning and death? — Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

Response:

> I have a very well insullated house.  In addition, the house faces south > and i have a lot of south facing windows.  About 40% of my gas bill is for > my clothes dryer.  Years ago I saw a heat exchanger that you could put in > the exhaust pipe.  It didn’t seem very efficient at the time.  Are there > any new models/designs that are availaable?

A problem I have with my clothes dryer is that the exhaust runs through my attic to an outside wall.  In the winter, the exhaust pipe (4" thin-wall duct) is cooled by the cold air in the attic.  The moisture from the clothing condenses and wets the inside walls.  Then the lint sticks to it like glue. Have to go up there and ‘ram-rod’ the piping each spring to clear out the lint.  This year I layered some extra fiberglass over this (un-faced) to see if that might help the situation. Point is, removing heat from the exhaust will cause some condensation.  And wet lint is troublesome to keep cleared away. daestrom

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a very well insullated house.  In addition, the house faces south > and i have a lot of south facing windows.  About 40% of my gas bill is > for > my clothes dryer.  Years ago I saw a heat exchanger that you could put in > the exhaust pipe.  It didn’t seem very efficient at the time.  Are there > any new models/designs that are availaable? > A problem I have with my clothes dryer is that the exhaust runs through my > attic to an outside wall.  In the winter, the exhaust pipe (4" thin-wall > duct) is cooled by the cold air in the attic.  The moisture from the > clothing condenses and wets the inside walls.  Then the lint sticks to it > like glue. > Have to go up there and ‘ram-rod’ the piping each spring to clear out the > lint.  This year I layered some extra fiberglass over this (un-faced) to > see if that might help the situation. > Point is, removing heat from the exhaust will cause some condensation. > And wet lint is troublesome to keep cleared away. > daestrom

  Most excellent example. I had not thought of that downside.

Response:

Is the ducting insulated? Insulated ducts are readily available. Or you could always wrap Fibreglass Pink (or whatever) around it..

A problem I have with my clothes dryer is that the exhaust runs through my attic to an outside wall.  In the winter, the exhaust pipe (4" thin-wall duct) is cooled by the cold air in the attic.  The moisture from the clothing condenses and wets the inside walls.  Then the lint sticks to it like glue. Have to go up there and ‘ram-rod’ the piping each spring to clear out the lint.  This year I layered some extra fiberglass over this (un-faced) to see if that might help the situation. Point is, removing heat from the exhaust will cause some condensation.  And wet lint is troublesome to keep cleared away. daestrom

Response:

> Is the ducting insulated? Insulated ducts are readily available. Or you > could always wrap Fibreglass Pink (or whatever) around it..

No insulation, that was my point.  The only insulated ducts I could find are of that ’spiral’ wire & plastic crap.  And I figured the spirals would be a lot harder to clean than a smooth bore metal duct.  As I said, I put some fibreglass batting over/along/around it this year, so next spring I guess we’ll see how that worked out. daestrom

Response:

> Is the ducting insulated? Insulated ducts are readily available. Or you > could always wrap Fibreglass Pink (or whatever) around it.. > No insulation, that was my point.  The only insulated ducts I could find > are of that ’spiral’ wire & plastic crap.  And I figured the spirals would > be a lot harder to clean than a smooth bore metal duct.  As I said, I put > some fibreglass batting over/along/around it this year, so next spring I > guess we’ll see how that worked out. > daestrom

  The spirals are hard to clean. I have done it. The orignial post was to use a heat exchanger to tap heat from the dryer outlet. Taking heat brings it closer to condensation. I suppose after you take out some heat with an exchanger you would want to insulate as much as possible.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Is the ducting insulated? Insulated ducts are readily available. Or you >> could always wrap Fibreglass Pink (or whatever) around it.. > No insulation, that was my point.  The only insulated ducts I could find > are of that ’spiral’ wire & plastic crap.  And I figured the spirals > would be a lot harder to clean than a smooth bore metal duct.  As I said, > I put some fibreglass batting over/along/around it this year, so next > spring I guess we’ll see how that worked out. > daestrom >  The spirals are hard to clean. I have done it. > The orignial post was to use a heat exchanger to tap heat > from the dryer outlet. Taking heat brings it closer to condensation. > I suppose after you take out some heat with an exchanger you would > want to insulate as much as possible.

But since the exhaust is very nearly at 100% RH, any heat removal via a heat exchanger would undoubtedly lead to some condensation on the heat exchanger surface. Now, on the one hand, recovering the latent heat of vaporization from the water vapor driven out of the clothing would be a great energy source. (~1100 BTU/lbm of water, as opposed to just 30 BTU/lbm to cool it 60 degreesF).  So there *is* a lot of energy there to be reclaimed. But the issue I was wondering is just *how* to keep the lint from collecting all over the heat exchanger’s wet surface and requiring tedious/frequent cleaning?  My own experience with straight metal ducting in my attic suggests that the lint will very quickly build up to 1/4 inch thick layer on the leading surfaces of the heat exchanger. Disconnecting, disassembling and cleaning the lint from something with a lot of fins on it every month or two sounds like a royal pain in the arse. Yet, a lot of energy to be recovered…… daestrom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>Is the ducting insulated? Insulated ducts are readily available. Or you >>>could always wrap Fibreglass Pink (or whatever) around it.. >>No insulation, that was my point.  The only insulated ducts I could find >>are of that ’spiral’ wire & plastic crap.  And I figured the spirals >>would be a lot harder to clean than a smooth bore metal duct.  As I said, >>I put some fibreglass batting over/along/around it this year, so next >>spring I guess we’ll see how that worked out. >>daestrom > The spirals are hard to clean. I have done it. >The orignial post was to use a heat exchanger to tap heat >from the dryer outlet. Taking heat brings it closer to condensation. >I suppose after you take out some heat with an exchanger you would >want to insulate as much as possible. > But since the exhaust is very nearly at 100% RH, any heat removal via a heat > exchanger would undoubtedly lead to some condensation on the heat exchanger > surface. > Now, on the one hand, recovering the latent heat of vaporization from the > water vapor driven out of the clothing would be a great energy source. > (~1100 BTU/lbm of water, as opposed to just 30 BTU/lbm to cool it 60 > degreesF).  So there *is* a lot of energy there to be reclaimed. > But the issue I was wondering is just *how* to keep the lint from collecting > all over the heat exchanger’s wet surface and requiring tedious/frequent > cleaning?  My own experience with straight metal ducting in my attic > suggests that the lint will very quickly build up to 1/4 inch thick layer on > the leading surfaces of the heat exchanger. > Disconnecting, disassembling and cleaning the lint from something with a lot > of fins on it every month or two sounds like a royal pain in the arse. > Yet, a lot of energy to be recovered…… > daestrom

Hi, How about putting a filter in ahead of the heat exchanger and in a convenient place (like in the laundry room) where it can be cleaned easily and frequently?  Maybe a filter with quite a bit of cross sectional area and washable? — Gary www.BuildItSolar.com "Build It Yourself" Solar Projects

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> Is the ducting insulated? Insulated ducts are readily available. Or you >>> could always wrap Fibreglass Pink (or whatever) around it.. >> No insulation, that was my point.  The only insulated ducts I could find >> are of that ’spiral’ wire & plastic crap.  And I figured the spirals >> would be a lot harder to clean than a smooth bore metal duct.  As I >> said, I put some fibreglass batting over/along/around it this year, so >> next spring I guess we’ll see how that worked out. >> daestrom >  The spirals are hard to clean. I have done it. > The orignial post was to use a heat exchanger to tap heat > from the dryer outlet. Taking heat brings it closer to condensation. > I suppose after you take out some heat with an exchanger you would > want to insulate as much as possible. > But since the exhaust is very nearly at 100% RH, any heat removal via a > heat exchanger would undoubtedly lead to some condensation on the heat > exchanger surface. > Now, on the one hand, recovering the latent heat of vaporization from the > water vapor driven out of the clothing would be a great energy source. > (~1100 BTU/lbm of water, as opposed to just 30 BTU/lbm to cool it 60 > degreesF).  So there *is* a lot of energy there to be reclaimed. > But the issue I was wondering is just *how* to keep the lint from > collecting all over the heat exchanger’s wet surface and requiring > tedious/frequent cleaning?  My own experience with straight metal ducting > in my attic suggests that the lint will very quickly build up to 1/4 inch > thick layer on the leading surfaces of the heat exchanger. > Disconnecting, disassembling and cleaning the lint from something with a > lot of fins on it every month or two sounds like a royal pain in the arse. > Yet, a lot of energy to be recovered…… > daestrom

  I have thought that reclaiming latent heat with a desicant might be interesting.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>Is the ducting insulated? Insulated ducts are readily available. Or you >>>>could always wrap Fibreglass Pink (or whatever) around it.. >>>No insulation, that was my point.  The only insulated ducts I could find >>>are of that ’spiral’ wire & plastic crap.  And I figured the spirals >>>would be a lot harder to clean than a smooth bore metal duct.  As I >>>said, I put some fibreglass batting over/along/around it this year, so >>>next spring I guess we’ll see how that worked out. >>>daestrom >> The spirals are hard to clean. I have done it. >>The orignial post was to use a heat exchanger to tap heat >>from the dryer outlet. Taking heat brings it closer to condensation. >>I suppose after you take out some heat with an exchanger you would >>want to insulate as much as possible. > But since the exhaust is very nearly at 100% RH, any heat removal via a > heat exchanger would undoubtedly lead to some condensation on the heat > exchanger surface. > Now, on the one hand, recovering the latent heat of vaporization from the > water vapor driven out of the clothing would be a great energy source. > (~1100 BTU/lbm of water, as opposed to just 30 BTU/lbm to cool it 60 > degreesF).  So there *is* a lot of energy there to be reclaimed. > But the issue I was wondering is just *how* to keep the lint from > collecting all over the heat exchanger’s wet surface and requiring > tedious/frequent cleaning?  My own experience with straight metal ducting > in my attic suggests that the lint will very quickly build up to 1/4 inch > thick layer on the leading surfaces of the heat exchanger. > Disconnecting, disassembling and cleaning the lint from something with a > lot of fins on it every month or two sounds like a royal pain in the > arse. > Yet, a lot of energy to be recovered…… > daestrom > Hi, > How about putting a filter in ahead of the heat exchanger and in a > convenient place (like in the laundry room) where it can be cleaned > easily and frequently?  Maybe a filter with quite a bit of cross > sectional area and washable?

Yeah, I was thinking that too.  Need much better filtration than what the ’standard’ dryer outlet has.  And to keep the backpressure at a minimum, yes a larger area.  Maybe even a furnace filter (a washable version). Might have to run some numbers and see how much heat we’re talking about, see what it’s worth to me daestrom

Response:

My electric dryer runs 4800 watts input plus the motor on a cyclic basis. There should be a way to extract some heat and/or moisture out of it.  The moisture may be hard to get rid of though.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>Is the ducting insulated? Insulated ducts are readily available. Or you >>>>could always wrap Fibreglass Pink (or whatever) around it.. >>>No insulation, that was my point.  The only insulated ducts I could find >>>are of that ’spiral’ wire & plastic crap.  And I figured the spirals >>>would be a lot harder to clean than a smooth bore metal duct.  As I >>>said, I put some fibreglass batting over/along/around it this year, so >>>next spring I guess we’ll see how that worked out. >>>daestrom >> The spirals are hard to clean. I have done it. >>The orignial post was to use a heat exchanger to tap heat >>from the dryer outlet. Taking heat brings it closer to condensation. >>I suppose after you take out some heat with an exchanger you would >>want to insulate as much as possible. > But since the exhaust is very nearly at 100% RH, any heat removal via a > heat exchanger would undoubtedly lead to some condensation on the heat > exchanger surface. > Now, on the one hand, recovering the latent heat of vaporization from the > water vapor driven out of the clothing would be a great energy source. > (~1100 BTU/lbm of water, as opposed to just 30 BTU/lbm to cool it 60 > degreesF).  So there *is* a lot of energy there to be reclaimed. > But the issue I was wondering is just *how* to keep the lint from > collecting all over the heat exchanger’s wet surface and requiring > tedious/frequent cleaning?  My own experience with straight metal ducting > in my attic suggests that the lint will very quickly build up to 1/4 inch > thick layer on the leading surfaces of the heat exchanger. > Disconnecting, disassembling and cleaning the lint from something with a > lot of fins on it every month or two sounds like a royal pain in the > arse. > Yet, a lot of energy to be recovered…… > daestrom > Hi, > How about putting a filter in ahead of the heat exchanger and in a > convenient place (like in the laundry room) where it can be cleaned > easily and frequently?  Maybe a filter with quite a bit of cross > sectional area and washable?

Yeah, I was thinking that too.  Need much better filtration than what the ’standard’ dryer outlet has.  And to keep the backpressure at a minimum, yes a larger area.  Maybe even a furnace filter (a washable version). Might have to run some numbers and see how much heat we’re talking about, see what it’s worth to me daestrom

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My electric dryer runs 4800 watts input plus the motor on a cyclic basis. > There should be a way to extract some heat and/or moisture out of it. > The moisture may be hard to get rid of though. >>>>>Is the ducting insulated? Insulated ducts are readily available. Or >>>>>you >>>>>could always wrap Fibreglass Pink (or whatever) around it.. >>>>No insulation, that was my point.  The only insulated ducts I could >>>>find >>>>are of that ’spiral’ wire & plastic crap.  And I figured the spirals >>>>would be a lot harder to clean than a smooth bore metal duct.  As I >>>>said, I put some fibreglass batting over/along/around it this year, so >>>>next spring I guess we’ll see how that worked out. >>>>daestrom >>> The spirals are hard to clean. I have done it. >>>The orignial post was to use a heat exchanger to tap heat >>>from the dryer outlet. Taking heat brings it closer to condensation. >>>I suppose after you take out some heat with an exchanger you would >>>want to insulate as much as possible. >> But since the exhaust is very nearly at 100% RH, any heat removal via a >> heat exchanger would undoubtedly lead to some condensation on the heat >> exchanger surface. >> Now, on the one hand, recovering the latent heat of vaporization from >> the >> water vapor driven out of the clothing would be a great energy source. >> (~1100 BTU/lbm of water, as opposed to just 30 BTU/lbm to cool it 60 >> degreesF).  So there *is* a lot of energy there to be reclaimed. >> But the issue I was wondering is just *how* to keep the lint from >> collecting all over the heat exchanger’s wet surface and requiring >> tedious/frequent cleaning?  My own experience with straight metal >> ducting >> in my attic suggests that the lint will very quickly build up to 1/4 >> inch >> thick layer on the leading surfaces of the heat exchanger. >> Disconnecting, disassembling and cleaning the lint from something with a >> lot of fins on it every month or two sounds like a royal pain in the >> arse. >> Yet, a lot of energy to be recovered…… >> daestrom > Hi, > How about putting a filter in ahead of the heat exchanger and in a > convenient place (like in the laundry room) where it can be cleaned > easily and frequently?  Maybe a filter with quite a bit of cross > sectional area and washable? > Yeah, I was thinking that too.  Need much better filtration than what the > ’standard’ dryer outlet has.  And to keep the backpressure at a minimum, > yes > a larger area.  Maybe even a furnace filter (a washable version). > Might have to run some numbers and see how much heat we’re talking about, > see what it’s worth to me > daestrom

  They make desiccant wheels for dehumidification. If you could somehow use the dry side of the wheel to capture the filtered hot moist air and dry it with the hot dry furnace air, maybe you would recapture some of that latent heat. That would mean only drying clothes when you needed the heat though. http://www.semcoinc.com/Products.nsf/o/74FE22C4499EB0AB86256DC700649A…

Response:

> My electric dryer runs 4800 watts input plus the motor on a cyclic basis. > There should be a way to extract some heat and/or moisture out of it. >  The moisture may be hard to get rid of though.

   When we first bought our house, it had an electric dryer which had a heat exchanger at the bottom. It was a series of 1" vertical aluminum tubes where the warm moist air went through and a drip pan under these. the inlet air flowed over the outside of the tubes. The condensed water trapped the lint.    My wife always forgot to empty the pan after every load and it often overflowed, so her mother bought a conventional dryer for us. Bad move in hindsight. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>>Is the ducting insulated? Insulated ducts are readily available. Or you >>>>>could always wrap Fibreglass Pink (or whatever) around it.. >>>>No insulation, that was my point.  The only insulated ducts I could find >>>>are of that ’spiral’ wire & plastic crap.  And I figured the spirals >>>>would be a lot harder to clean than a smooth bore metal duct.  As I >>>>said, I put some fibreglass batting over/along/around it this year, so >>>>next spring I guess we’ll see how that worked out. >>>>daestrom >>>The spirals are hard to clean. I have done it. >>>The orignial post was to use a heat exchanger to tap heat >>>from the dryer outlet. Taking heat brings it closer to condensation. >>>I suppose after you take out some heat with an exchanger you would >>>want to insulate as much as possible. >>But since the exhaust is very nearly at 100% RH, any heat removal via a >>heat exchanger would undoubtedly lead to some condensation on the heat >>exchanger surface. >>Now, on the one hand, recovering the latent heat of vaporization from the >>water vapor driven out of the clothing would be a great energy source. >>(~1100 BTU/lbm of water, as opposed to just 30 BTU/lbm to cool it 60 >>degreesF).  So there *is* a lot of energy there to be reclaimed. >>But the issue I was wondering is just *how* to keep the lint from >>collecting all over the heat exchanger’s wet surface and requiring >>tedious/frequent cleaning?  My own experience with straight metal ducting >>in my attic suggests that the lint will very quickly build up to 1/4 inch >>thick layer on the leading surfaces of the heat exchanger. >>Disconnecting, disassembling and cleaning the lint from something with a >>lot of fins on it every month or two sounds like a royal pain in the >>arse. >>Yet, a lot of energy to be recovered…… >>daestrom >Hi, >How about putting a filter in ahead of the heat exchanger and in a >convenient place (like in the laundry room) where it can be cleaned >easily and frequently?  Maybe a filter with quite a bit of cross >sectional area and washable? > Yeah, I was thinking that too.  Need much better filtration than what the > ’standard’ dryer outlet has.  And to keep the backpressure at a minimum, yes > a larger area.  Maybe even a furnace filter (a washable version). > Might have to run some numbers and see how much heat we’re talking about, > see what it’s worth to me > daestrom

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My electric dryer runs 4800 watts input plus the motor on a cyclic basis. > There should be a way to extract some heat and/or moisture out of it. >  The moisture may be hard to get rid of though. >   When we first bought our house, it had an electric dryer which had a > heat exchanger at the bottom. It was a series of 1" vertical aluminum > tubes where the warm moist air went through and a drip pan under these. > the inlet air flowed over the outside of the tubes. The condensed water > trapped the lint. >   My wife always forgot to empty the pan after every load and it often > overflowed, so her mother bought a conventional dryer for us. Bad move in > hindsight. >>>>>>Is the ducting insulated? Insulated ducts are readily available. Or >>>>>>you >>>>>>could always wrap Fibreglass Pink (or whatever) around it.. >>>>>No insulation, that was my point.  The only insulated ducts I could >>>>>find >>>>>are of that ’spiral’ wire & plastic crap.  And I figured the spirals >>>>>would be a lot harder to clean than a smooth bore metal duct.  As I >>>>>said, I put some fibreglass batting over/along/around it this year, so >>>>>next spring I guess we’ll see how that worked out. >>>>>daestrom >>>>The spirals are hard to clean. I have done it. >>>>The orignial post was to use a heat exchanger to tap heat >>>>from the dryer outlet. Taking heat brings it closer to condensation. >>>>I suppose after you take out some heat with an exchanger you would >>>>want to insulate as much as possible. >>>But since the exhaust is very nearly at 100% RH, any heat removal via a >>>heat exchanger would undoubtedly lead to some condensation on the heat >>>exchanger surface. >>>Now, on the one hand, recovering the latent heat of vaporization from >>>the >>>water vapor driven out of the clothing would be a great energy source. >>>(~1100 BTU/lbm of water, as opposed to just 30 BTU/lbm to cool it 60 >>>degreesF).  So there *is* a lot of energy there to be reclaimed. >>>But the issue I was wondering is just *how* to keep the lint from >>>collecting all over the heat exchanger’s wet surface and requiring >>>tedious/frequent cleaning?  My own experience with straight metal >>>ducting >>>in my attic suggests that the lint will very quickly build up to 1/4 >>>inch >>>thick layer on the leading surfaces of the heat exchanger. >>>Disconnecting, disassembling and cleaning the lint from something with a >>>lot of fins on it every month or two sounds like a royal pain in the >>>arse. >>>Yet, a lot of energy to be recovered…… >>>daestrom >>Hi, >>How about putting a filter in ahead of the heat exchanger and in a >>convenient place (like in the laundry room) where it can be cleaned >>easily and frequently?  Maybe a filter with quite a bit of cross >>sectional area and washable? > Yeah, I was thinking that too.  Need much better filtration than what the > ’standard’ dryer outlet has.  And to keep the backpressure at a minimum, > yes > a larger area.  Maybe even a furnace filter (a washable version). > Might have to run some numbers and see how much heat we’re talking about, > see what it’s worth to me > daestrom

  Condensed water on a screen sounds like it would make a good filter. Tou would have to clean it regularly, but you do with the link filter in the dryer also. So, that brings us back to the double wall air to air heat exchanger that has saturated warm air and would condense if you exchanged heat out of it. No problem. use the condensation on a screen as a lint after filter. I used to get lots of lint in my garage even though there was an in dryer filter. I had to sweep and vaccum it up before it bacame a fire hazard.

Response:

My folks had a sink next to their washer/dryer.  They ran the dryer output through and old panty hose leg, in the sink.  If you don’t have a drain, use a large bucket or tub to catch the the moisture.  Instant heat capture, moisture collection, and lint filter.

Response:

> My folks had a sink next to their washer/dryer.  They ran the dryer > output through and old panty hose leg, in the sink.  If you don’t have > a drain, use a large bucket or tub to catch the the moisture.  Instant > heat capture, moisture collection, and lint filter.

You don’t do this with a propane dryer. Electric you can …. — Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust, http://www.green-trust.org Contributing Editor, http://www.off-grid.net http://www.rebelwolf.com/essn.html

Response:

Question:

> Quality of Life in the United States – How We Stack Up > On many quality of life issues, including the quality of education, health > care,

Patients exhausted By JOHN CROSBIE ST. JOHN’S — Canada’s publicly controlled and operated health care system is not working efficiently or effectively. It does not deliver the care patients need in a timely manner. So we must demonstrate we are no longer prepared to accept this. In a 1999 report of the Atlantic Institute of Market Studies, authors Brian Lee Crowley, Dr. David Zitner and policy analyst Nancy Faraday-Smith concluded: "The Canadian public health-care system is on an unsustainable course that will plunge medicare in ever-deepening crisis over the next 10-20 years." They found "medicare’s troubles stem from a long list of design flaws and rapidly changing circumstances to which the system is responding poorly, if at all." Because we created a virtual monopoly in the provision of publicly insured services, costs are determined by political bargaining between powerful interest groups such as physicians, nurses, other health care professionals, hospital administrators and health care bureaucrats. Patients have little incentive to economize on their use of medicare. The result of all of this is rapidly increasing spending on health care, threatening spending on other vital services, such as education. The aging of our population is having a significant impact upon costs. In 1992, our 3.3 million seniors were the equivalent of less than 20% of the working-age population (i.e., those whose productivity pays for "pay as you go" programs such as medicare). By 2030, there will be 8 million seniors —   nearly 40% of that group. Canadians over 65 consume about 50% of all health care expenditures and this is expected to reach almost 67% by 2030. If our medicare system is unreformed, this will involve a large transfer of wealth from relatively poor workers to relatively well-off seniors over the next 25 years, causing a significant increase in taxation to maintain benefits at their current level. As the AIMS study indicated, it is the absence of any challenge to the monopoly of medicare — the only monopoly that the Canadian public apparently does not oppose — that guarantees mediocre performance on patient needs. The study also found medicare lacks vital accountability mechanisms or incentives to control costs. Our monopoly system is not transparent and so prevents consumers from making informed decisions. It does not allow competition to reveal which providers are most effective and cost efficient. As well, it fails to separate political influences from health care decisions. When are Canadians going to fight for essential changes rather than the political pap handed out by successive Liberal governments? Health-care providers and governments are afraid to face well-organized interest groups. Provider salaries have gone up with billions put in the system, but waiting lists have not gone down. It is time to put patients’ interest first. Why ignore the fact that many countries that outperform Canada in health care have policies specifically outlawed by the Canada Health Act? Their systems encourage patients to be responsible to cover some cost of their care, permit competition among private providers within a publicly funded system and permit freedom to go outside the system if it is not meeting their needs — all things we officially prohibit. It is long past time for Canadians to look at such national health systems as those of Sweden, Germany and the U.K., all of which offer superior and more affordable medical services. It is part of the underlying dishonesty of our system that you can sue your doctor for medical malpractice, but you can’t sue Paul Martin or Roy Romanow or Dalton McGuinty for health system malpractice. Our governments do not accept legal accountability when they fail to deliver. The time has come to force them to accept political accountability. http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Crosbie_John/2005/08/07/116…

Response:

> Quality of Life in the United States – How We Stack Up > On many quality of life issues, including the quality of education, health > care, the environment, the general public seems to believe that the United > States is near the top relative to other countries. Where does the United > States really stand? You may be surprised.

      Want op in the UK? Wait one year       So injuried teen flies to India where surgery is cheaper       HE has to wait 17 weeks just for an appointment. Then he has to wait at least another nine months for an operation in the UK.       07 August 2005       HE has to wait 17 weeks just for an appointment. Then he has to wait at least another nine months for an operation in the UK.       So British mum Karen Knott, who couldn’t bear to see her 14-year-old son, Elliot, in pain has decided to fly him to India for an operation.       She has to fork out 6,000-pound ($17,000) for the trip and the cost of surgery in New Delhi, reported the Daily Mail.       She discovered that the alternative in the UK – going private – would have cost about 25,000(pound).       Her son is suffering from spondylolisthesis, a condition which developed after he injured his back while ice-skating. It is caused when a vertebra slips out of line and presses on a nerve.       http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/news/story/0%2C4136%2C92703%2C00.html

Response:

> Quality of Life in the United States – How We Stack Up

The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:   a.. Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.   b.. Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.   c.. Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.   d.. The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)   e.. Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.   f.. Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.   g.. Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.   h.. Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher. As a group, America’s poor are far from being chronically undernourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle-class children and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than do higher-income children and have average protein intakes 100 percent above recommended levels. Most poor children today are, in fact, supernourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier that the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II. While the poor are generally well-nourished, some poor families do experience hunger, meaning a temporary discomfort due to food shortages. According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), 13 percent of poor families and 2.6 percent of poor children experience hunger at some point during the year. In most cases, their hunger is short-term. Eighty-nine percent of the poor report their families have "enough" food to eat, while only 2 percent say they "often" do not have enough to eat. Overall, the typical American defined as poor by the government has a car, air conditioning, a refrigerator, a stove, a clothes washer and dryer, and a microwave. He has two color televisions, cable or satellite TV reception, a VCR or DVD player, and a stereo. He is able to obtain medical care. His home is in good repair and is not overcrowded. By his own report, his family is not hungry and he had sufficient funds in the past year to meet his family’s essential needs. While this individual’s life is not opulent, it is equally far from the popular images of dire poverty conveyed by the press, liberal activists, and politicians. http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm

Response:

> Quality of Life in the United States – How We Stack Up > On many quality of life issues, including the quality of education, health > care, the environment, the general public seems to believe that the United > States is near the top relative to other countries. Where does the United > States really stand? You may be surprised.

"Most Americans have a standard of living which the majority of Europeans will never come anywhere near," the Swedish study says. http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005242

Response:

> Quality of Life in the United States – How We Stack Up > On many quality of life issues, including the quality of education, health > care, the environment, the general public seems to believe that the United > States is near the top relative to other countries. Where does the United > States really stand? You may be surprised.

According to a recent report by two economists at Sweden’s Timbro Institute, the quality of life in Europe is pretty bad. France, Italy, Great Britain and Germany have lower per capita GDP than all but four of the states in the United States. In fact, if the European Union were a state in the United States, it would be among the poorest, on a par with Arkansas, Mississippi or West Virginia. It is true that most Europeans work less than Americans. It is also true that they have less to show for it. The average house in Europe is about half the size of the average American home. In fact, the average European home is smaller than the homes of Americans who live in poverty. Speaking of poverty, the percentage of poor people in the U.S. has diminished over the past several decades. For example in 1959, 22 percent of all Americans lived below the poverty line. Today, it’s 12 percent. Conditions also have steadily improved for minorities. In 1959, 55 percent of African Americans lived in poverty. Today, it’s 24 percent. Not great, but better. But what is poverty in America? The Swedish authors surveyed poor Americans to get a picture of how they live. They found that 45 percent of poor Americans own their own homes, 73 percent own a car, 97 percent own a color television, and more than half own two or more color TVs. Two out of three poor households in American have cable or satellite TV and one in four has a wide screen television. As the authors remarked, "It is better to be poor in a rich country than in a poor one." How does this compare to Europe? According to authors, at least 40 percent of all European households would be considered poverty-stricken in America. http://www.awb.org/cgi-bin/absolutenm/templates/?a=644&z=10

Response:

My houseguest from Montreal got a good laugh out of this, especially after we showed her the "COBRA" invoice my wife received after she was laid off last year.  The Canadian rightys have no idea how good they have it — the U.S. is the last country in the industrialized world without some sort of universal health care, any funding or administrative difficulties the Canadians have are trivial compared to that single embarassing fact.  Even when you have what passes for health coverage, you’ve got insurance company clerks telling your physician what s/he can and cannot prescribe, and hospitals billing thousands for simple ER care (e.g. a scratched cornea or a bad case of the runs) — and those experiences are from my own family within the last two years.  If you think private insurance means better access to care, think again — under my son’s Aetna policy, he has to wait 6 to 10 *weeks* to get any dental care short of an outright emergency because only a limited number of dentists are participating and they’re all apparently booked to the gills.  My family doctor just stopped taking BC/BS, so if that’s the insurance offered by a particular employer we have to find another physician after 20 years with someone who’s been just terrific for and to us.  I guess that’s the American way, eh? Sorry, John — even a flawed national system is better than no system at all, with insurance and pharmaceutical companies calling all the shots.  Even "HillaryCare" is starting to look good compared to the overpriced chaos we have now!

[snipped]        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

> Sorry, John — even a flawed > national system is better > than no system at all,

I agree that something needs to be done. I’m looking for a system that really works, and I don’t see one. Driving to class one day last week and on the radio Dr. Dean Edell was mentioning that the 24hr Suicide Hotline in Canada has been cut-back to 8am to 5pm because the Canadian Health system ran short of funds. See ya, John

Response:

> Dude, you can publish all the anecdotes you want.  I posted statistics.

Read my next three posts. See ya, John

Response:

>> Dude, you can publish all the anecdotes you want.  I posted statistics. >Read my next three posts. >See ya, >John

Would you guys mark this thread OT, or are you both a couple of fries short of a happy meal? Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  And at his own request, Lars GotShanked Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca

Response:

courageously avow: >Would you guys mark this thread OT, or are you both a couple of fries >short of a happy meal? >Ken, what part of "OT" don’t you understand? >Al

 Al, it only has OT now because I added it thank you.  Look at the history and you will see it didn’t prior to my post. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  And at his own request, Lars GotShanked Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca

Response:

>> Sorry, John — even a flawed > national system is better > than no system at all, >I agree that something needs to be done. I’m looking for a system that >really works, and I don’t see one. Driving to class one day last week and on >the radio Dr. Dean Edell was mentioning that the 24hr Suicide Hotline in >Canada has been cut-back to 8am to 5pm because the Canadian Health system >ran short of funds.

You’re assuming that this is intrinsic to the system rather than the usual combination of incompetence and lack of oversight — these can solved with appropriate management measures.  Former VP Gore made great strides with various federal bureacracies in that respect, getting do- nothing employees AND positions eliminated while streamlining procedures.   I’m willing to bet that if the Canucks can trim some administrative fat and find a few lower-cost management methodologies they’ll be able to balance the books just fine.        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

 For example even in developing countries that are > much poorer than the US, they often have better food.  By "better" I mean, > less processed, fresher and better tasting.

When I didn’t have stats you chided me for it, but I believe that you can have your own opinion. >Americans are also fatter than > most other countries, and have more health problems as a result.

We are able to eat better, and have far more of a selection in our grocery stores. >It is true that most Europeans work less than Americans. > That’s definitely true, they have far more vacation time that Americans > do, > and they work less hours.  Holidays are sacred, people realize that living > well isn’t all about chasing the buck, it’s about having time to spend > with > your family.

I read a story about 2 weeks ago that I couldn’t find that stressed the fact that as a whole, Europeans are under employed. They could;t work more hours even if they wanted to do so. > As usual you are totally unable to debate a point without changing the > argument into something else.  The point is not money, it’s life.

The story that read a week or two ago stressed that the average European would be BELOW the poverty level in the US. We have more food, better food, larger homes, better cars, color TV, and microwaves. Things that the average European does NOT have. They are also developing BIG problems with their Health Care system as another story in this thread pointed out, " HE has to wait 17 weeks, ( that is FOUR MONTHS),  just for an appointment, ( Not treatment taht was a FOUR MONTH wait for an appointment!). Then he has to wait at least another nine months for an operation in the UK." That was a wait of OVER A YEAR! Somebody on Welfare in the US gets better Medical Treatment. I heard on the news recently that the unemployment rate in the EU also averages over 9% nearly twice the US rate of 5%. All of that translates into a lot more than just a higher GDP. Even the Swedes in THEIR study came to conclude that, "Most Americans have a standard of living which the majority of Europeans will never come anywhere near,". Even THEY think that we are better off. So you can believe that I am unable to debate, especially in this case, I don’t need to debate, since the Europeans themselves are concluding that our standard of living is better than their will EVER be. See ya, John

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > For example even in developing countries that are > much poorer than the US, they often have better food.  By "better" I > mean, > less processed, fresher and better tasting. > When I didn’t have stats you chided me for it, but I believe that you can > have your own opinion. >Americans are also fatter than > most other countries, and have more health problems as a result. > We are able to eat better, and have far more of a selection in our grocery > stores. >>It is true that most Europeans work less than Americans. > That’s definitely true, they have far more vacation time that Americans > do, > and they work less hours.  Holidays are sacred, people realize that > living > well isn’t all about chasing the buck, it’s about having time to spend > with > your family. > I read a story about 2 weeks ago that I couldn’t find that stressed the > fact that as a whole, Europeans are under employed. They could;t work more > hours even if they wanted to do so. > As usual you are totally unable to debate a point without changing the > argument into something else.  The point is not money, it’s life. > The story that read a week or two ago stressed that the average European > would be BELOW the poverty level in the US. We have more food, better > food, larger homes, better cars, color TV, and microwaves. Things that the > average European does NOT have. > They are also developing BIG problems with their Health Care system as > another story in this thread pointed out, " HE has to wait 17 weeks, ( > that is FOUR MONTHS),  just for an appointment, ( Not treatment taht was a > FOUR MONTH wait for an appointment!). Then he has to wait at least another > nine months for an operation in the UK." That was a wait of OVER A YEAR! > Somebody on Welfare in the US gets better Medical Treatment. > I heard on the news recently that the unemployment rate in the EU also > averages over 9% nearly twice the US rate of 5%. All of that translates > into a lot more than just a higher GDP. Even the Swedes in THEIR study > came to conclude that, "Most Americans have a standard of living which the > majority of Europeans > will never come anywhere near,". Even THEY think that we are better off. > So you can believe that I am unable to debate, especially in this case, I > don’t need to debate, since the Europeans themselves are concluding that > our standard of living is better than their will EVER be. > See ya, > John

Dream on. Dennis

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> For example even in developing countries that are >> much poorer than the US, they often have better food.  By "better" I >> mean, >> less processed, fresher and better tasting. > When I didn’t have stats you chided me for it, but I believe that you can > have your own opinion. >>Americans are also fatter than >> most other countries, and have more health problems as a result. > We are able to eat better, and have far more of a selection in our grocery > stores. >>>It is true that most Europeans work less than Americans. >> That’s definitely true, they have far more vacation time that Americans >> do, >> and they work less hours.  Holidays are sacred, people realize that >> living >> well isn’t all about chasing the buck, it’s about having time to spend >> with >> your family. > I read a story about 2 weeks ago that I couldn’t find that stressed the > fact that as a whole, Europeans are under employed. They could;t work more > hours even if they wanted to do so. >> As usual you are totally unable to debate a point without changing the >> argument into something else.  The point is not money, it’s life. > The story that read a week or two ago stressed that the average European > would be BELOW the poverty level in the US. We have more food, better > food, larger homes, better cars, color TV, and microwaves. Things that the > average European does NOT have. > They are also developing BIG problems with their Health Care system as > another story in this thread pointed out, " HE has to wait 17 weeks, ( > that is FOUR MONTHS),  just for an appointment, ( Not treatment taht was a > FOUR MONTH wait for an appointment!). Then he has to wait at least another > nine months for an operation in the UK." That was a wait of OVER A YEAR! > Somebody on Welfare in the US gets better Medical Treatment. > I heard on the news recently that the unemployment rate in the EU also > averages over 9% nearly twice the US rate of 5%. All of that translates > into a lot more than just a higher GDP. Even the Swedes in THEIR study > came to conclude that, "Most Americans have a standard of living which the > majority of Europeans > will never come anywhere near,". Even THEY think that we are better off. > So you can believe that I am unable to debate, especially in this case, I > don’t need to debate, since the Europeans themselves are concluding that > our standard of living is better than their will EVER be. > See ya, > John >Dream on. >Dennis

This guy isn’t worth debating Dennis.  He’s got more spin than a toy store full of tops. Ken Wilson Proud Owner of Lord Valve, PMG, John Wheaton, Claude Lucas,  Freep the Xenophobe, and the rest of the  Union of Rightwing Idiots Needing Explanations (URINE)  And at his own request, Lars GotShanked Supporting the Troops at http://www.resisters.ca

Response:

> Canada’s publicly controlled and operated health care system > is not working efficiently or effectively

As the US system is even worse than the Canadian system the US system must really suck.

Response:

>       Want op in the UK? Wait one year

Nope. I had two parents and have many relatives and friends using Britain’s National Health Service and they’ve all had excellent care in a timely fashion.

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> France, Italy, Great Britain > and Germany have lower per capita GDP than all but four of the states in the > United States.

Amazing that their economies are so robust and their people so happy. > The average house in Europe is about > half the size of the average American home.

Size doesn’t indicate quality. American houses and cars are generally too darn big. > For example in 1959, 22 percent of > all Americans lived below the poverty line. Today, it’s 12 percent.

With 41 million people having no health insurance.

Response:

> I’m looking for a system that > really works, and I don’t see one.

In the mean time a Canadian-style single payer system would be better than what we have now.

Response:

>> So you can believe that I am unable to debate, especially in this case, I > don’t need to debate, since the Europeans themselves are concluding that > our standard of living is better than their will EVER be. > Dream on.

Your comment sounds like I posted my opinion, and I did not. It was a European study that concluded, ""Most Americans have a standard of living which the majority of Europeans will never come anywhere near," the Swedish study says. http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005242 See ya! John

Response:

> We are able to eat better, and have far more of a selection in our grocery > stores.

Wrong. Eat more? Certainly. Eat better? Nope. All you have to do is go to any French supermarket or one of the many semi-weekly street markets to see the quality of their food. > Europeans are under employed. They could;t work more hours > even if they wanted to do so.

It’s a "family values" thing. They prefer spending more time with the family. > The story that read a week or two ago stressed that the average European > would be BELOW the poverty level in the US.

Apples and Oranges. > We have more food

Perhaps. > better food

Nope. > larger homes

So what? Bigger isn’t better. > better cars

Nope. > color TV

They have color TVs and most European systems are going over-the-air digital before the US > and microwaves

They sell the same Korean made stuff they sell here. > Things that the average European does NOT have.

Ha! > They are also developing BIG problems with their Health Care system

At least everyone’s covered. The US has more problems and bigger problems with its health care system. > I heard on the news recently that the unemployment rate in the EU also > averages over 9% nearly twice the US rate of 5%.

Different stats. The European numbers (at least in the EU) take into account those that have taken themselves out of the labor market, US stats don’t. A more realistic US number would be 9-10 percent.

Response:

> Different stats. The European numbers (at least in the EU) take into > account those that have taken themselves out of the labor market, US > stats don’t. A more realistic US number would be 9-10 percent.

I’d ask you to verify that, but you can NOT. It has been common knowledge for decades that the higher cost to business in Europe, and the other business regulations has had European unemployment, 50% to 150% higher than the US rate. Over the seven years that I was with the US Chamber of Commerce I used to get up to date stats, and there was NO comparison at all. Again the European study concluded; ""Most Americans have a standard of living which the majority of Europeans will never come anywhere near," the Swedish study says. http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005242 See ya, John

Response:

> With 41 million people having no health insurance.

They are also developing BIG problems with their Health Care system as another story in this thread pointed out, " HE has to wait 17 weeks, ( that is FOUR MONTHS),  just for an appointment, ( Not treatment that was a FOUR MONTH wait for an appointment!). Then he has to wait at least another nine months for an operation in the UK." ( http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/news/story/0%2C4136%2C92703%2C00.html) That was a wait of OVER A YEAR! Somebody on Welfare in the US gets better Medical Treatment. See ya, John

Response:

> the Swedish study says

Reported by the very-conservative Wall Street Journal opinion section and done for a conservative Swedish organization (Timbro). From the study itself: "This study is based on a widely acclaimed and thought-provoking book   Sweden versus the US that was published earlier this year in Swedish by the same authors  Dr. Fredrik Bergstr

Question:

Hello all,     I’m not sure this is the right newsgroup, but I’ll give it a shot.  I currently have a small electic run of the mill water heater.  I’m thinking of replacing it (output is starting to decline) with a electric ‘on demand’ water heater.  Has anyone out there done this, or do you have one?   I have questions about where to place it (concerning distance from breaker box), and whether to buy one for each sink, or to buy one for the whole house. Thanks in advance, Gary C in EC, NC

Response:

On demand take alot of power, A Bosch whole house unit needs 120 amp dedicated.  For me Gas is the only way,   im in the midwest and electricity is 3x the cost of gas.

Response:

> On demand take alot of power, A Bosch whole house unit needs 120 amp > dedicated.  For me Gas is the only way,   im in the midwest and > electricity is 3x the cost of gas.

They make them for RVs, but they still take a lot of power. http://store.yahoo.com/irawoodinc/eematawahe.html

Response:

gcroix a

Question:

As you may know, California has faced some power shortages in recent years. But why? In one of hte sunnniest states in the nation, why don’t more people have solar on their homes and businesses. Solar power allows us to operate either with backup from The Grid or completely separately from it. Well, it costs a HELLUVA lot to retrofit for solar. (I’ve looked into it for us, and we’d never recoup the cost…though we’re still considering it as soon as we’ve paid off our addition. We like the ideas of: electricity available for our fridge and food whether or not the rest of the state is sweltering and kicking on so many A/C units that our power goes off, too; freedom from The Grid; giving back to our children and yours and THEIRS by creating CLEAN energy rather than counting on other sources.) But there’s an Assembly Bill that would require builders of larger projects (like tract homes, NOT Joe Blow building his own dream house or shed or loveshack) to include solar on a small percentage of those homes. That percentage increases over the years to expand the use of solar, thereby causing no additional demand (by THOSE homes) on The Grid. Of course, the cost will be passed on to buyers, but when built with the house and financed with the REST of the mortage over the course of 30 years, it’s really not even an issue. Imagine – no NEW need for NEW power plants. No loss of employment for those at CURRENT plants (’cause we’ll STILL need them). NEW jobs generated by solar power (manufacturing parts, sales, installation, maintenance – though there’s apparently little of that). MORE electricity for California without the MESS and Political Mayhem! Ask Governor Schwarzenegger to support solar power at the following web site (you can also read more about the bill there, including links to the actual bill text)- http://environmentcalifornia.org/envirocalifenergy.asp?id=596&id4=TAF… Take action NOW. This item is HOT and could live or die by our decision to take action today or just leave it to the "next guy." THANKS!

Response:

> As you may know, California has faced some power shortages in recent years. But > why? In one of hte sunnniest states in the nation, why don’t more people have > solar on their homes and businesses. Solar power allows us to operate either > with backup from The Grid or completely separately from it.

You’ve got two issues here. The first is "Why the power shortages?" The simple answer is "because the power companies turned off the power". They did this because they wanted to jack up the prices and it worked. There was never any shortage of power plants or generation capacity. The other issue is "Why don’t more people have solar PV arrays?" The answer to this is "Because it’s too expensive". Simple economics. It’s less expensive to pay the power company than to produce the power yourself. Only way to fix that is to make it less expensive. > Well, it costs a HELLUVA lot to retrofit for solar. … > But there’s an Assembly Bill that would require builders of larger projects > (like tract homes, NOT Joe Blow building his own dream house or shed or > loveshack) to include solar on a small percentage of those homes. That > percentage increases over the years to expand the use of solar, thereby causing > no additional demand (by THOSE homes) on The Grid. Of course, the cost will be > passed on to buyers, but when built with the house and financed with the REST > of the mortage over the course of 30 years, it’s really not even an issue.

How can it not be an issue? It costs, as you say, "a HELLUVA lot". It will still cost that helluva lot even if you do roll it in to the 30 year mortgage. Forcing people to buy something that they don’t want isn’t a good way of doing things. Having them pay a helluva lot for something they don’t want is even worse. > Imagine – no NEW need for NEW power plants. No loss of employment for those at > CURRENT plants (’cause we’ll STILL need them). NEW jobs generated by solar > power (manufacturing parts, sales, installation, maintenance – though there’s > apparently little of that). MORE electricity for California without the MESS > and Political Mayhem!

Sorry, doesn’t work that easy. You are getting NEW power plants. You are just forcing people to build them into their homes and pay for them, and their upkeep, themselves. Perhaps it may generate more electricity, which California has no shortage of, but it’ll certainly come with a lot of mess and political mayhem. > Take action NOW. This item is HOT and could live or die by our decision to take > action today or just leave it to the "next guy."

Nobody needs any new laws to force solar down the public collective throat. The business it doing OK as it is and can not be improved with this kind of heavy handed nonsense. At best, this kind of thing would not harm the solar industry and at worst, it could set it back decades. Anthony

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->But there’s an Assembly Bill that would require builders of larger projects >(like tract homes, NOT Joe Blow building his own dream house or shed or >loveshack) to include solar on a small percentage of those homes. That >percentage increases over the years to expand the use of solar, thereby causing >no additional demand (by THOSE homes) on The Grid. Of course, the cost will be >passed on to buyers, but when built with the house and financed with the REST >of the mortage over the course of 30 years, it’s really not even an issue. >Imagine – no NEW need for NEW power plants. No loss of employment for those at >CURRENT plants (’cause we’ll STILL need them). NEW jobs generated by solar >power (manufacturing parts, sales, installation, maintenance – though there’s >apparently little of that). MORE electricity for California without the MESS >and Political Mayhem! >Ask Governor Schwarzenegger to support solar power at the following web site >(you can also read more about the bill there, including links to the actual >bill text)-

Jenpete, If the approach is so lucrative, why do you need legislation. Oh I get it, you want other Californians to pay for your energy consumption. Regards, John Phillips

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Nobody needs any new laws to force solar down the public collective >throat. The business it doing OK as it is and can not be improved with > You’re just trying to confuse us with facts. > Hey, some day, maybe sooner than we think, power will become outrageously > high. When it gets expensive enough, and the PV manufacturers see a big > enough market, they will invest in research and big, efficient factories. A > 40 year old person could possibly get free power from his investment within > his lifetime. > Bob

Bob: I am a 67 year old emphysema patient that paid $34,000 after rebate and 1st years income tax credit for my 10KW grid tied PV system. I am going to get my free power in just 4 years and 5 months. Do you know what I say about your someday?  I’ll bet! My system  has been in operation for 13 1/2 months and has actually generated 20,929 kWh between jun 11 (noon) 2003 and noon today. In that same time frame I bought an additional 10,489 kWh from PG&E’s grid, at a cost of $650.00.  For the two years before we installed the PV system I saw several bills in excess of 700 a month, and averaged over 425 a month. I figure the pay back will be in 5.5 years from startup considering the savings of an actual 4,500.00 on the electrical bills annually and the additional annual income tax deduction for both federal and state income taxes for those 5.5 years of about $10,000. I say additional since I refinanced our homes mortgage + 34,000(for PV system) for 15 years.  I got a new fixed rate 15 yr. loan instead of keeping the old 30 yr. variable rate loan with its remaining 19 years.  Because of the early year’s higher income tax deductions and because of a drop of interest rate 6.5 to 4.87, this netted an additional actual $10,000 reduction in our income taxes assuming the income tax rates remains the same for 4 more years.  It also fixed our payment’s interest rate at a constant value. One interesting sidelight, because of state law the property taxes CANNOT be reappraised or taxed additionally because of the installation of such energy saving / generation equipment. Even considering the $150 a month increase in loan payment for the remaining 9.5 years of the new loan. (Also, don’t forget to subtract the 56 months of payments   I won’t make on the remaining old 30 yr. loan.) I may not be here to enjoy all of the pay back but I think I will be, and in any case my family should benefit. You have your facts and I’ve got mine. — Jim Baber www.baber.org 1350 W Mesa Ave. Fresno CA, 93711 (559) 435-9068 (559) 905-2204 cell

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>How can it not be an issue? It costs, as you say, "a HELLUVA lot". It >will still cost that helluva lot even if you do roll it in to the 30 >year mortgage.

Well, here’s what I consider a helluva lot. To put the system we’d like on our home, we need to come up with about $9k. Coming up with the cash is tough. But when you build the system at the same time you’re building the house, the cost is less (no cutting into existing roof, upgrading existing roof, cutting through and then repairing existing walls, structure, etc., savings of buying in bulk when building several homes at one time). In addition, that lower cost is added to the cost of a home in California, which in my area exceeds $250,000 MINIMALLLY for a new home.

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>For the >two years before we installed the PV system I saw several bills in excess of >700 >a month, and averaged over 425 a month.

HOLY CRAP! I don’t understand it. HOW does a household use THAT much electricity?! Last year (Jan 1, 2003 to Dec. 31, 2003) we spent $465 on electricity. Our highest bill was in January (shortest days) at $65. What kind of draw do you have? Is this an air conditioning issue?

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>If the approach is so lucrative, why do you need legislation. Oh I get >it, you want other Californians to pay for your energy consumption

Ummm…no…I have no problem coming up with the "WHOPPING" $465 in charges the power company charged me for my ENTIRE year’s consumption last year. Why do we need legislation? Generall I disagree with legislation…in this case, solar energy’s been around PLENTY long enough…yet Californians still aren’t using it. WHY?! WHY isn’t it included in all homes with great sun exposure? Perhaps legislation requiring its installation in new homes would get the ball rolling. Once MORE people see that it can REALLY work, more people will do it voluntarily (or so I hope in my little mental utopia).

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>>How can it not be an issue? It costs, as you say, "a HELLUVA lot". It >will still cost that helluva lot even if you do roll it in to the 30 >year mortgage. > Well, here’s what I consider a helluva lot. To put the system we’d like on our > home, we need to come up with about $9k. Coming up with the cash is tough. But > when you build the system at the same time you’re building the house, the cost > is less (no cutting into existing roof, upgrading existing roof, cutting > through and then repairing existing walls, structure, etc., savings of buying > in bulk when building several homes at one time). In addition, that lower cost > is added to the cost of a home in California, which in my area exceeds $250,000 > MINIMALLLY for a new home.

Yes, it does cost a bit less to install when first building the house but that doesn’t address the issue. The issue was if we should pass a law that forces people to spend this additional money when building a new house. I’m all for people adding solar to new (or even old) houses and financing it any way they like but forcing them to do something they don’t want (and don’t need) is not a good idea. Let the builders, buyers and owners decide for themselves. If it really is a good idea then they will agree to do it without the government forcing them. If you are strapped for cash on a retrofit, it’s often possible to get a 2nd mortgage, equity loan or to refinance. Anthony

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>>If the approach is so lucrative, why do you need legislation. Oh I get >it, you want other Californians to pay for your energy consumption > Ummm…no…I have no problem coming up with the "WHOPPING" $465 in charges the > power company charged me for my ENTIRE year’s consumption last year. Why do we > need legislation? Generall I disagree with legislation…in this case, solar > energy’s been around PLENTY long enough…yet Californians still aren’t using > it. WHY?! WHY isn’t it included in all homes with great sun exposure?

Because it’s not yet cost effective for these people. Sun exposure alone isn’t enough. You have to buy the equipment. Today, it costs more to buy this equipment than to pay the power company. It’s cheaper to simply buy the power from the power company. > Perhaps legislation requiring its installation in new homes would get the ball > rolling. Once MORE people see that it can REALLY work, more people will do it > voluntarily (or so I hope in my little mental utopia).

You can’t fix the financial issues with legislation. Forcing people to pay more for their electricity will only get them pissed off. California has enough of that kind of nonsense now and this is one of the reasons why people pay more for electricity in California than most of the rest of the country. Anthony

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> Forcing people to >pay more for their electricity will only get them pissed off.

I’m not talking about asking people to tack on a fee for existing power use (that’s separate legislation, an entirely different proposal unrelated to the Senate Bill I’m talking about). If the solar system was installed with the house, if people were NEVER tied in with the grid, you’re not asking them to pay MORE for energy, you’re giving them the opportunity to NEVER pay for energy beyond the initial construction cost of their home, which includes its own energy source.

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: >How can it not be an issue? It costs, as you say, "a HELLUVA lot". It : >will still cost that helluva lot even if you do roll it in to the 30 : >year mortgage. : : Well, here’s what I consider a helluva lot. To put the system we’d like on our : home, we need to come up with about $9k. Coming up with the cash is tough. But : when you build the system at the same time you’re building the house, the cost : is less (no cutting into existing roof, upgrading existing roof, cutting : through and then repairing existing walls, structure, etc., savings of buying : in bulk when building several homes at one time). In addition, that lower cost : is added to the cost of a home in California, which in my area exceeds $250,000 : MINIMALLLY for a new home. The typical price for a resale home in my area is $660,000 With NEW homes at $1,000,000 to $1,400,000 each.  Fewer than 8% of the people in California can afford those prices.   So adding more expense, which the politicos would love to do (to increase TAX revenues) would only reduce the number of people who can afford a home further! It might also result in the removal of some of the politicos, which would be a good outcome!  Getting the political type of terrorists out of public service is what is needed, to permit the free market to function!

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>HOLY CRAP! I don’t understand it. HOW does a household use THAT much >electricity?! >Last year (Jan 1, 2003 to Dec. 31, 2003) we spent $465 on electricity. Our >highest bill was in January (shortest days) at $65. >What kind of draw do you have? Is this an air conditioning issue?

All-electric home Cooking=electric heating=electric illumination=electric appliances=electric A/C =electric washer=electric dryer=electric water heater=electric BURN THEM MEGAWATTS

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Question:

Maybe there is some truth to the lemon ingredient.  If you take an old penny and submerse it in lemon juice over night the penny becomes shiny and new the next day.  I’ve tried it and it works.  I’ve never done this with strings, I usually just buy new ones.  But it might just work and you may not have to boil them,, but I would clean them off afterward after the lemon treatment. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to used > strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. > Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used? > Thanks…merci > JP

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to > used strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. > Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used? > Lemon and vinegar?  Are you kidding!  I wouldn’t have thought that a wise > combination at all. > What works a lot better is dishwashing liquid.  Boil the strings in a pot > of water with dishwashing liquid for at least 20 minutes, preferably > longer. > When you’ved boiled them for a while take them out of the pot and dry them > right away.  Do *not* leave them in the pot while the water cools. > The remaining water can be used as the base for a nourishing and funky > soup known as boiulebass… > You’ll never get the strings the same as new, and a few types of strings > don’t boil well at all (nylon wound/core, bronze etc.) but you can usually > extend their life by a bit.  It is quite a drama though. > I’ve previously had reasonable success with putting strings in the > dishwasher too.

My instructor told me he stores his spare strings in the freezer — to keep them fresh, I suppose — and then gives them a few minutes in the clothes dryer (to dry them) before installing them.  The bit about freezing strings sounds like bull-oney; but maybe putting the strings in a mesh bag and giving them a few minutes on the "cotton" cycle *would* work to dry strings after boiling. — Walter Luffman    Medina, TN USA Amateur curmudgeon, equal opportunity annoyer

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to >> used strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. >> Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used? > Lemon and vinegar?  Are you kidding!  I wouldn’t have thought that a wise > combination at all. > What works a lot better is dishwashing liquid.  Boil the strings in a pot > of water with dishwashing liquid for at least 20 minutes, preferably > longer. > When you’ved boiled them for a while take them out of the pot and dry them > right away.  Do *not* leave them in the pot while the water cools. > The remaining water can be used as the base for a nourishing and funky > soup known as boiulebass… > You’ll never get the strings the same as new, and a few types of strings > don’t boil well at all (nylon wound/core, bronze etc.) but you can usually > extend their life by a bit.  It is quite a drama though. > I’ve previously had reasonable success with putting strings in the > dishwasher too. >My instructor told me he stores his spare strings in the freezer — to >keep them fresh, I suppose — and then gives them a few minutes in the >clothes dryer (to dry them) before installing them.  The bit about >freezing strings sounds like bull-oney; but maybe putting the strings in a >mesh bag and giving them a few minutes on the "cotton" cycle *would* work >to dry strings after boiling.

I just wipe mine on my pants.

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>Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to used >strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. >Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used?

Don’t forget the chicken bullion and clarified butter. Seriously, it’s much easier to wipe them down with denatured alcohol. Be sure to put a protective covering between the strings and instrument so that you don’t risk harming the finish.  Loosen the strings enough so that you can wipe their full diameter. Don’t use ordinary isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol, as the most common kind is only 70% alcohol and thus contains about 30% water.  It’s possible to buy nearly-pure isopropanol but you have to look for it. Everclear would also work… — "Politicians & Diapers Need To Be Changed For The Same Reason"  (seen on a bumper sticker)

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Soak them in a jar of Methyl Hydrate [any hardware store sells it cheap]over night.Boiling the strings  works ok but, a pinch of baking soda neutrilizes the acids and cleans the crap in the wrapping.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to used >strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. >Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used? > Don’t forget the chicken bullion and clarified butter. > Seriously, it’s much easier to wipe them down with denatured alcohol. > Be sure to put a protective covering between the strings and > instrument so that you don’t risk harming the finish.  Loosen the > strings enough so that you can wipe their full diameter. > Don’t use ordinary isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol, as the most common > kind is only 70% alcohol and thus contains about 30% water.  It’s > possible to buy nearly-pure isopropanol but you have to look for it. > Everclear would also work… > — > "Politicians & Diapers Need To Be Changed For The Same Reason" >  (seen on a bumper sticker)

Response:

> It works; I used to do it all the time when I was a broke-ass mofo. You just > need to be careful how you wind the string. > —

The broke-ass mofo days are something else. Makes you appreciate anything you have. I treat my Squier guitar like it’s a Paul Reed Smith. I’d treat a PRS like it’s a vintage ‘62. Why? ‘Cause I started out on a fucking Sears Global! Oh, yeah, boiling strings. I did it and I agree with most repliers: you can use all kinds of tricks (solvents, weak acids, etc.) but you cannot get rid of the metal fatigue. They go "false" on you and nothing will save ‘em. I realized that most of the time, people who say that don’t have enough money for maintenance of their music hobby/semi-profession/profession usually are just not spending their money wisely. They find money for beer, pizza, lattes out the ass, but can’t cobble together $10 for some damn Darco’s. And then they want to borrow your cables,  batteries, etc. Oh, yeah, boiling strings. Go for it with one of the suggested methods. It won’t hurt.

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> I know there may well be a cash issue here that dictates strings should last > as long as possible, but on my RIC i want to keep the strings > cooking method

Remembering some of your clips, I would see why: Anyone bustin’ out with the Rics or Stingrays need that Rotosound piano twang 24/7.

Response:

Y’all prob’ly know and do this, but wiping the strings down (both sides) thoroughly with a dry cloth at the end of each set prolongs the twang a LOT. I even do it in the middle of a set if there’s any sort of opportunity while the vocalist is bullshitting to the crowd, etc. Thump

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to used > strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. > Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used? > Thanks…merci > JP

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Y’all prob’ly know and do this, but wiping the strings down (both sides) > thoroughly with a dry cloth at the end of each set prolongs the twang a LOT. > I even do it in the middle of a set if there’s any sort of opportunity while > the vocalist is bullshitting to the crowd, etc. > Thump > Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to used > strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. > Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used? > Thanks…merci > JP

Yep. Anything that removes the corrosives in body oil from the strings helps. In my younger years, I was very oily and could ruin a set of high quality bass strings in under two weeks if I was very careful about cleaning them. There was no salvaging them with boiling either. Playing bass was an expensive proposition when strings when $20 a pop and the dollar was worth three times as much with considerably lower wages than today. Guitar strings were dead in less than a week, even with excellent care. By the way, Music Yo is selling conventional electric and acoustic guitar strings for two to three dollars a set. They are not the best strings that I have ever played, but they are a long way from the worst brand name stirngs that I have experienced. Not bad for an emergency set when cash is low and gigs are waiting. Ed Cregger

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I know there may well be a cash issue here that dictates strings should last as long as possible, but on my RIC i want to keep the strings cooking method — AlunP www.jurassica.org

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On a historical note, Motown legend James Jamerson used the same strings for years, occassionally boiling them to clean them. He liked the warm sound that he got that way. However, it became his downfall as the "new" slapping style became more and more popular, and soon the king of studio bassists just wasn’t in demand anymore. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to used > strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. > Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used? > Thanks…merci > JP > This method cleans off some of the gunk, but nothing can repair damage from > fret wear.

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It works; I used to do it all the time when I was a broke-ass mofo. You just need to be careful how you wind the string. — Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — George Orwell – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Oh yes, that works great–especially reversing the coils on the tuning > heads. > Once you were the teacher, now I am the master… > Ah, young Jedi, you have to turn the dents around so they face up. > God, I don’t miss those days… > — > Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm > "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary > act." — > George Orwell > > > Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to > used > > > strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. > > > Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used? > > > Thanks…merci > > > JP > > This method cleans off some of the gunk, but nothing can repair damage > from > > fret wear.

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Oh yes, that works great–especially reversing the coils on the tuning heads. Once you were the teacher, now I am the master…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ah, young Jedi, you have to turn the dents around so they face up. > God, I don’t miss those days… > — > Learning funk bass? visit www.js3jazz.com/store.htm > "Speaking the Truth in times of Universal deceit is a revolutionary act." — > George Orwell > > Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to > used > > strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. > > Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used? > > Thanks…merci > > JP > This method cleans off some of the gunk, but nothing can repair damage > from > fret wear.

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> Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to used > strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. > Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used?

Lemon and vinegar?  Are you kidding!  I wouldn’t have thought that a wise combination at all. What works a lot better is dishwashing liquid.  Boil the strings in a pot of water with dishwashing liquid for at least 20 minutes, preferably longer. When you’ved boiled them for a while take them out of the pot and dry them right away.  Do *not* leave them in the pot while the water cools. The remaining water can be used as the base for a nourishing and funky soup known as boiulebass… You’ll never get the strings the same as new, and a few types of strings don’t boil well at all (nylon wound/core, bronze etc.) but you can usually extend their life by a bit.  It is quite a drama though. I’ve previously had reasonable success with putting strings in the dishwasher too. — Derek — Many Hands   – Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand http://www.manyhands.co.nz/

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> Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to used > strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. > Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used? > Thanks…merci > JP

This method cleans off some of the gunk, but nothing can repair damage from fret wear.

Response:

There is an even better method than boiling. Use a combination of Methyl Hydrate and Iso Alcohol. (4-1 ratio) Methyl Hydrate is easy to find in a HW store or paint store and cheap It will clean all of the crap out of the windings that boiling can’t and I always wonder if boiling doesn’t start the oxidation process between the windings or core which would weaken the string or change the way it vibrates. That said new strings are definitely preferred to get better tone. MikeG

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to used > strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. > Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used? > Lemon and vinegar?  Are you kidding!  I wouldn’t have thought that a > wise combination at all. > What works a lot better is dishwashing liquid.  Boil the strings in a > pot of water with dishwashing liquid for at least 20 minutes, preferably > longer. > When you’ved boiled them for a while take them out of the pot and dry > them right away.  Do *not* leave them in the pot while the water cools. > The remaining water can be used as the base for a nourishing and funky > soup known as boiulebass… > You’ll never get the strings the same as new, and a few types of strings > don’t boil well at all (nylon wound/core, bronze etc.) but you can > usually extend their life by a bit.  It is quite a drama though. > I’ve previously had reasonable success with putting strings in the > dishwasher too. > — Derek > — > Many Hands   – Trans Cultural Music from Aotearoa/New Zealand > http://www.manyhands.co.nz/

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> Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to used > strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. > Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used? > Thanks…merci > JP

Yea, on old topic, but it does work for a little while at least.  If ye be a poor student, just boil them in water.  If you can afford the cheapest new strings, don’t bother. —    O< "Mr. Anderson" /()    ^^                                                      Slidell, LA

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Boil ‘em in plain water for about 5-10 minutes. I used to do this but although it does bring back the zing, some of the bottom end warmth seems to be lacking. As someone else said, if you can afford the cheapest bargain strings, go with those instead. Thump

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to used > strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. > Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used? > Thanks…merci > JP

Response:

Someone once told me that you can kind of restore or give new life to used strings by boiling them in a mix of water, lemon and/or vinegar. Has anyone tried it? How much of each ingredient was used? Thanks…merci JP

Response:

New strings are the best thing.  But if the cash is not there, boil a pot of water and throw them in for at least 5 minutes.  You may get another week or two or if they are real old you may get nothing. Some people add a drop or two of dish soap to the water.  Others wipe them down with isopropyl alochol.

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LOL…what he said…

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That’s almost like boiling condems in my book but whatever…. Steve "Dude" Barr http://www.TheDudePit.com http://www.VintageBass.com http://www.schoolofbass.com Another one coming soon!

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>Ah, young Jedi, you have to turn the dents around so they face up.

Once again…raising hand….

Response:

> That’s almost like boiling condems in my book but whatever….

**yeah, and like strings, it pays to take ‘em off first before you boil ‘em !!!  (ouch)

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Add a little salt and basalmic vinegar for that Mediterranean taste.

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Question:

>Does anyone know the whereabouts of Rachael, the girl Gary Burnore was >convicted >of sexually molesting in California? >Post details here … address, phone number, email, etc.

Newsgroups: ba.market.housing ROOM TO RENT: Mother and daughter (teen)looking for female (student preferred)to share 3B/1B house in Santa Clara (approx 1.5 miles from SCU). Non-smoker please. Washer/Dryer, full kitchen privileges (microwave & dishwasher), cable TV large screened patio with gas BBQ and patio furniture, quite tree lined street, nice appearance, large backyard.  We have two cats, so no additional pets please. $425/mo ($400 deposit)

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>Does anyone know the whereabouts of Rachael, the girl Gary Burnore >was convicted >of sexually molesting in California? >Post details here … address, phone number, email, etc.

Maybe someone can look em up. Rachael Baldacci Nancy Baldacci (her mom)

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of words… > Does anyone know the whereabouts of Rachael, the girl Gary Burnore was convicted > of sexually molesting in California?

No. Go find a hooker or something. > Post details here … address, phone number, email, etc.

Begging for RL info is sad on so many levels — Starshine Moonbeam

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> Does anyone know the whereabouts of Rachael, the girl Gary Burnore was convicted > of sexually molesting in California? > Post details here … address, phone number, email, etc.

The details are in the phone book.

Response:

Does anyone know the whereabouts of Rachael, the girl Gary Burnore was convicted of sexually molesting in California? Post details here … address, phone number, email, etc.

Response:

Question:

Not that this applies here but it reminds of the time I was helping a friend with some wiring,  I had him plug in a radio so we could identify the circuit. Can you guess the rest?  Yes,  after going through all the breakers almost three times I asked about the radio and yes it was an AC/DC and had good batteries in it.  Never assume anything. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > We’ve moved to a smaller home and are trying to reduce our energy > > >consumption, but each month it’s been higher than the previous month. > > You may be adding a bunch of "phantom" loads that you don’t think > > about.  While the power consumption of things like wall-warts for > > things in the small personal electronics category is small, enough of > > them running 24×7 can add up.  TV sets, stereos, etc can also use > > nearly as much power when "off", as many of them turn off the > > displays, but leave the internals functioning, so you can have > > "instant-on"… > I know that we have a number of these and have accounted for them > because they are absolutes with a disabled wife and a three year old, > but we cannot account for the consistant heawvy draws. We have > converted to CF lights where practical and run the others only as > necessary, but the consumption is still climbing. It hasn’t mattered > whether we have run the heat or air conditioning, done much cooking or > baking, the daily average is now at 68KwH and climbing. The little old > lady we bought the house from didn’t run much but a couple of ceiling > fans and a tv and computer, but had daily averages around 64KwH. We’ve > gone as long as week without running the washer, dryer, dishwasher and > the range and still had the same daily average, so there is something > that is drawing power that I can’t find, or we have a bad meter. > > As others have pointed out, a clamp-on ammeter can work wonders in at > > least identifying current flows.  How many KWHRs/month are you > > currently using? > Because of the wacky way this house and it’s outbuildings were wired, > I’ve got three breaker panels and no labeling with all sorts of stuff > running everywhere. I need to hang a monitor on each circuit and see > what it pulls for a couple of days so that we can figure out what > kinds of total loads are on each so we can rewire everything at some > point and get the loads into a somewhat balanced condition between the > 220 legs. Had one leg get tripped the other morning and things went > off that shouldn’t have and vice-versa. Besides, we have some loads > that run at random and I can’t just hang around all day to go look at > the meter when one comes on. > Pick a nice day and get a watch with a second hand.  Go watch your meter > disk (assuming it is the typical watt-hour meter) and time how many times it > goes around in a short, fixed time (say, two minutes).  Then go open up > about half the breakers you have (say, one whole panel) and then count the > meter revs again.  Keep track of how much reduction there is for each group > of breakers you open.  This can narrow things down for you to a few areas > and all it costs you is a little of your time and some walking back and > forth. > If you have some major cycling loads like a well pump, you might hang out by > the meter for a bit (take a lawn chair and newspaper with you to pass the > time).  Then check the speed of your meter every so often, trying to catch > how fast it spins when the load is running. > Using the meter constant found on the face of the meter (often about 7.4) > you can do some math and figure out how much power some of your things are > drawing. > You don’t mention what types of loads or home you have (‘outbuildings’ could > describe a lot of different things).  My house in NY is ~2600 ft^2 and a > family of five and we only use about 15-20 kwh/day (heat and hot-water are > natural gas).  So 68 kwh/d seems pretty high unless you have electric heat > in a cold climate. > daestrom > P.S.  Electric kwh meters hardly *ever* go bad.  I’d spend an afternoon > opening breakers and watching the meter before bothering with the utility. > The other thing about looking at the loads over a couple of days gives > me some insight on what levels we will need power for the lifestyle we > live, for our place in the mountains and where we can get the most > savings for the dollar when we build up there. >  Craig C.

Response:

>The suggestion of turning off breakers and checking them one at a time is >not so crazy.

Yeah, and even if it really is a mess, you need to know what’s connected to what breakers, so take the time to document your current setup. [Do you have any instant-hot water heaters?  Any electric hot-pads that might have slipped behind the furniture?  Just a couple of random thoughts...] — William Smith ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > We’ve moved to a smaller home and are trying to reduce our energy > >consumption, but each month it’s been higher than the previous month. > You may be adding a bunch of "phantom" loads that you don’t think > about.  While the power consumption of things like wall-warts for > things in the small personal electronics category is small, enough of > them running 24×7 can add up.  TV sets, stereos, etc can also use > nearly as much power when "off", as many of them turn off the > displays, but leave the internals functioning, so you can have > "instant-on"… >I know that we have a number of these and have accounted for them >because they are absolutes with a disabled wife and a three year old, >but we cannot account for the consistant heawvy draws. We have >converted to CF lights where practical and run the others only as >necessary, but the consumption is still climbing. It hasn’t mattered >whether we have run the heat or air conditioning, done much cooking or >baking, the daily average is now at 68KwH and climbing. The little old >lady we bought the house from didn’t run much but a couple of ceiling >fans and a tv and computer, but had daily averages around 64KwH. We’ve >gone as long as week without running the washer, dryer, dishwasher and >the range and still had the same daily average, so there is something >that is drawing power that I can’t find, or we have a bad meter.

Sounds like you have a leak in your hot water pipes..    Maybe a water leak under the slab or in a hidden area..    Or you have some major power draws, like outside spot lights on all the time.   You’re consuming an average of 2666 watts all the time. In the day time..    Start off by going outside and looking at your power meter.    Learn to read it..   (left to right. the procedure may be on the back of your j)    Also measure the amount of time it takes for the wheel to spin around one revolution. (The faster it spins the more power you are using..2666 watts of constant load should have the wheel spinning around 6 times a minute or every 10 seconds).. For meter wheel calibration numbers see… http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=36c239c3.83620578%40news.pompano…    Next.. Turn off all breakers.. in all the boxes..    Does the wheel stop or not?    Next Turn on the breakers that are over 60 amps.        (They most likely feed sub panels.)    Power meter wheel should remained stopped.    Next turn on each circuit(breaker) and measure revolution time if wheel begins to spin.      Turn off breaker and proceed to next circuit.         (At the same time you can make a map of what breakers, feed various outlets and appliances. I.E. Kill two birds with one stone.) .

Response:

 snippped > baking, the daily average is now at 68KwH and climbing. The little old > lady we bought the house from didn’t run much but a couple of ceiling > fans and a tv and computer, but had daily averages around 64KwH. We’ve > gone as long as week without running the washer, dryer, dishwasher and > the range and still had the same daily average, so there is something > that is drawing power that I can’t find, or we have a bad meter.

The odds of a bad meter are pretty high, it does happen. I have seen 3 in 35 years. I believe you and I would call the utility company now and ask for their help. Explain the situation. I am sure they will be willing to install a recording meter and or replace the existing meter. This is usually free at least here in Phoenix it is. The suggestion of turning off breakers and checking them one at a time is not so crazy. I once had a friend that bought a house on 15 acres. The original plan was to be a cowboy resort. There was a 600 amp service with 5 switches in it. I accounted for 4 of the loads. I finally turned off the 5th and waited. It was 115 F in the shade. It took exactly 10 minutes for the neighbor to walk across the land and ask it the power was out.  I was a hero. Bill dropped from 800 a month to about 400. Big house and 2 out buildings, all a/c’ed. Must be nice to live like that… Good luck and keep asking questions, assume nothing. It is hard to do.  If your close to Phoenix, I would be willing to help solve the mystery. I have the meters necessary to do the job.  A cost of my previous employment.  I like finding solutions.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > We’ve moved to a smaller home and are trying to reduce our energy > >consumption, but each month it’s been higher than the previous month. > You may be adding a bunch of "phantom" loads that you don’t think > about.  While the power consumption of things like wall-warts for > things in the small personal electronics category is small, enough of > them running 24×7 can add up.  TV sets, stereos, etc can also use > nearly as much power when "off", as many of them turn off the > displays, but leave the internals functioning, so you can have > "instant-on"… > I know that we have a number of these and have accounted for them > because they are absolutes with a disabled wife and a three year old, > but we cannot account for the consistant heawvy draws. We have > converted to CF lights where practical and run the others only as > necessary, but the consumption is still climbing. It hasn’t mattered > whether we have run the heat or air conditioning, done much cooking or > baking, the daily average is now at 68KwH and climbing. The little old > lady we bought the house from didn’t run much but a couple of ceiling > fans and a tv and computer, but had daily averages around 64KwH. We’ve > gone as long as week without running the washer, dryer, dishwasher and > the range and still had the same daily average, so there is something > that is drawing power that I can’t find, or we have a bad meter. > As others have pointed out, a clamp-on ammeter can work wonders in at > least identifying current flows.  How many KWHRs/month are you > currently using? > Because of the wacky way this house and it’s outbuildings were wired, > I’ve got three breaker panels and no labeling with all sorts of stuff > running everywhere. I need to hang a monitor on each circuit and see > what it pulls for a couple of days so that we can figure out what > kinds of total loads are on each so we can rewire everything at some > point and get the loads into a somewhat balanced condition between the > 220 legs. Had one leg get tripped the other morning and things went > off that shouldn’t have and vice-versa. Besides, we have some loads > that run at random and I can’t just hang around all day to go look at > the meter when one comes on.

Pick a nice day and get a watch with a second hand.  Go watch your meter disk (assuming it is the typical watt-hour meter) and time how many times it goes around in a short, fixed time (say, two minutes).  Then go open up about half the breakers you have (say, one whole panel) and then count the meter revs again.  Keep track of how much reduction there is for each group of breakers you open.  This can narrow things down for you to a few areas and all it costs you is a little of your time and some walking back and forth. If you have some major cycling loads like a well pump, you might hang out by the meter for a bit (take a lawn chair and newspaper with you to pass the time).  Then check the speed of your meter every so often, trying to catch how fast it spins when the load is running. Using the meter constant found on the face of the meter (often about 7.4) you can do some math and figure out how much power some of your things are drawing. You don’t mention what types of loads or home you have (‘outbuildings’ could describe a lot of different things).  My house in NY is ~2600 ft^2 and a family of five and we only use about 15-20 kwh/day (heat and hot-water are natural gas).  So 68 kwh/d seems pretty high unless you have electric heat in a cold climate. daestrom P.S.  Electric kwh meters hardly *ever* go bad.  I’d spend an afternoon opening breakers and watching the meter before bothering with the utility. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The other thing about looking at the loads over a couple of days gives > me some insight on what levels we will need power for the lifestyle we > live, for our place in the mountains and where we can get the most > savings for the dollar when we build up there. >  Craig C.

Response:

> > We’ve moved to a smaller home and are trying to reduce our energy >consumption, but each month it’s been higher than the previous month. > You may be adding a bunch of "phantom" loads that you don’t think > about.  While the power consumption of things like wall-warts for > things in the small personal electronics category is small, enough of > them running 24×7 can add up.  TV sets, stereos, etc can also use > nearly as much power when "off", as many of them turn off the > displays, but leave the internals functioning, so you can have > "instant-on"…

I know that we have a number of these and have accounted for them because they are absolutes with a disabled wife and a three year old, but we cannot account for the consistant heawvy draws. We have converted to CF lights where practical and run the others only as necessary, but the consumption is still climbing. It hasn’t mattered whether we have run the heat or air conditioning, done much cooking or baking, the daily average is now at 68KwH and climbing. The little old lady we bought the house from didn’t run much but a couple of ceiling fans and a tv and computer, but had daily averages around 64KwH. We’ve gone as long as week without running the washer, dryer, dishwasher and the range and still had the same daily average, so there is something that is drawing power that I can’t find, or we have a bad meter. > As others have pointed out, a clamp-on ammeter can work wonders in at > least identifying current flows.  How many KWHRs/month are you > currently using?

Because of the wacky way this house and it’s outbuildings were wired, I’ve got three breaker panels and no labeling with all sorts of stuff running everywhere. I need to hang a monitor on each circuit and see what it pulls for a couple of days so that we can figure out what kinds of total loads are on each so we can rewire everything at some point and get the loads into a somewhat balanced condition between the 220 legs. Had one leg get tripped the other morning and things went off that shouldn’t have and vice-versa. Besides, we have some loads that run at random and I can’t just hang around all day to go look at the meter when one comes on. The other thing about looking at the loads over a couple of days gives me some insight on what levels we will need power for the lifestyle we live, for our place in the mountains and where we can get the most savings for the dollar when we build up there.  Craig C.

Response:

>but we cannot account for the consistant heawvy draws.

One thought, some A/C units have heaters to keep them from freezing up, you might ensure the A/C breakers are off during the winter (and turn the breakers on 24 hours before restarting them in the summer). Yeah, you’ve got a couple of KW continuous, sounds like you need a meter, check out Hialeah…  Don’t have a hot tub, do you?  [Ours is a real power hog.] Have you tried reading the meter every day at the same time?  See if it’s continuous or spikes during certein days?  AFAIK, meters don’t go bad… — William Smith ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

Response:

> Because of the wacky way this house and it’s outbuildings were wired, > I’ve got three breaker panels and no labeling with all sorts of stuff > running everywhere. I need to hang a monitor on each circuit and see

Flip off all the breakers at night (shut down the computer and anything else that cares first) and see if one of the neigbors goes dark? Stranger things have happened (it’s just good old fashioned theft…) I can’t recall what it was in, but I do recall reading something where a fellow found that the golf-cart-charging-facility next door was connected to his barn electricity… It’s worth trying that experiment (preferably when the lights are on nearby) and it’s definitely worth the one-time inconvenience of tracking down what breaker is connected to each and every outlet, light, etc. If you find any that you can’t figure out, leave them off, and see what stops working, if anything. You may find that you don’t need the meter if you go through this step first. I don’t know where you are, but several non-obvious energy suckers are "ice melting cables" in a driveway or sidewalk, or on the roof/gutters, and sump pumps, if there is much water coming in. If you have a well pump, any plumbing leaks will cost you electricity, too. I suspect that the suggestion to get a clamp-on current sensor and connect it to a DMM with serial-out, then use a computer to do the logging is going to be the cheapest setup to do close to what you asked for. — Cats, Coffee, Chocolate…vices to live by

Response:

> We’ve moved to a smaller home and are trying to reduce our energy >consumption, but each month it’s been higher than the previous month.

You may be adding a bunch of "phantom" loads that you don’t think about.  While the power consumption of things like wall-warts for things in the small personal electronics category is small, enough of them running 24×7 can add up.  TV sets, stereos, etc can also use nearly as much power when "off", as many of them turn off the displays, but leave the internals functioning, so you can have "instant-on"… As others have pointed out, a clamp-on ammeter can work wonders in at least identifying current flows.  How many KWHRs/month are you currently using? I love my Watts Up Pro, FWIW!  My downstairs freezer only uses something like $5/month in power, which is encouraging.  I’m monitoring the downstairs fridge now…  8*) — William Smith ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

Response:

> >Anyone know of a reasonable inexpensive logging watt meter  [...]

                                                   ^^^^ > Get a KWHR meter and [...]

        ^^^^ Dammit!  Can’t you people keep your units straight? What the heck… they couldn’t even get it right in naming this newsgroup.   alt.energy.homepower? <grin!>

Response:

I’d guess the main energy users are resistance appliances?  Frost free frig and electric hot water tank.   Plug in space heater,  clothes dryer etc.    Eliminate these and your electric bill should go down. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Anyone know of a reasonable inexpensive logging watt meter or a > homebrew setup to do the same thing. I need to cover both 110 and 220, > with circuits up to 50 amps. >  We’ve moved to a smaller home and are trying to reduce our energy > consumption, but each month it’s been higher than the previous month. > I need to set up and do some 24 hour a day data logging to try and > identify where and when the big energy consumption is. What I’d like > to do is be able to hang the logger on a circuit or two and log it for > a couple of days at a time while also keeping up with the total > household useage during the same period. > I do have a decent background as an electronics tech, but have been > away from the design side so long that those skills are way rusty. I > don’t have a problem breadboarding circuits or doing my own fab work, > but I don’t want to spend a couple of grand for commercial equipment. > Craig C.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyone know of a reasonable inexpensive logging watt meter or a > homebrew setup to do the same thing. I need to cover both 110 and 220, > with circuits up to 50 amps. >  We’ve moved to a smaller home and are trying to reduce our energy > consumption, but each month it’s been higher than the previous month. > I need to set up and do some 24 hour a day data logging to try and > identify where and when the big energy consumption is. What I’d like > to do is be able to hang the logger on a circuit or two and log it for > a couple of days at a time while also keeping up with the total > household useage during the same period. > I do have a decent background as an electronics tech, but have been > away from the design side so long that those skills are way rusty. I > don’t have a problem breadboarding circuits or doing my own fab work, > but I don’t want to spend a couple of grand for commercial equipment. > Craig C.

It would seem to me that you would be able to find the problem with an amprobe. Click on the circuits and do the math. A Fluke 87 on record would give you the highs or lows for  each circuit.   Should not be so hard to find a big load that way. The rest is pretty simple turn off the lights, if you have an electric water heater put a timer on it and consciously reduce the time in the shower. Good luck with your project.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Anyone know of a reasonable inexpensive logging watt meter or a > homebrew setup to do the same thing. I need to cover both 110 and 220, > with circuits up to 50 amps. >  We’ve moved to a smaller home and are trying to reduce our energy > consumption, but each month it’s been higher than the previous month. > I need to set up and do some 24 hour a day data logging to try and > identify where and when the big energy consumption is. What I’d like > to do is be able to hang the logger on a circuit or two and log it for > a couple of days at a time while also keeping up with the total > household useage during the same period. > I do have a decent background as an electronics tech, but have been > away from the design side so long that those skills are way rusty. I > don’t have a problem breadboarding circuits or doing my own fab work, > but I don’t want to spend a couple of grand for commercial equipment. > Craig C.

Maybe the simple answer is to get a DMM with a serial output port, along with a clamp meter attachment and use an ordinary PC to do the data logging. The results won’t be particularly accurate ( no power factor correction) but you will get a good idea of where the energy is going and as a bonus you will have a couple of pieces of equipment which are useful in their own right.

Response:

>Anyone know of a reasonable inexpensive logging watt meter or a >homebrew setup to do the same thing. I need to cover both 110 and 220, >with circuits up to 50 amps.

Get a KWHR meter and base from http://www.hialeahmeter.com/ and wire it up wherever you want! — William Smith ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

Response:

Anyone know of a reasonable inexpensive logging watt meter or a homebrew setup to do the same thing. I need to cover both 110 and 220, with circuits up to 50 amps.  We’ve moved to a smaller home and are trying to reduce our energy consumption, but each month it’s been higher than the previous month. I need to set up and do some 24 hour a day data logging to try and identify where and when the big energy consumption is. What I’d like to do is be able to hang the logger on a circuit or two and log it for a couple of days at a time while also keeping up with the total household useage during the same period. I do have a decent background as an electronics tech, but have been away from the design side so long that those skills are way rusty. I don’t have a problem breadboarding circuits or doing my own fab work, but I don’t want to spend a couple of grand for commercial equipment. Craig C.

Response:

Question:

Hmmm! Obviously the insurance company agent had a deal going with the body shop. I myself paid State Farm Auto for over 16 years with out a single claim and then I got caught in a hail storm and my car needed paint and a new windshield. So I went to a local shop Alpine Auto Body in Mount Shasta and after his painting it 3x is was still screwed up. So I called State Farm and they said they would take care of it. They scheduled for an adjuster to come and look my car over, he failed show up or even call. Finally when he does show up he argues with me for an hour how there is nothing wrong with the paint job. The idiot had buffed the trim so it was scratched and the paint was a mess. I finally had to drive over 130 miles round trip for State Farm to look at it. Finally they agreed and $8500 and 9 months later the car was finally fixed. So I was out the use of my car for almost a year the 9 months for the second body shop and almost 3 month for the first one. I even had one of the State Farm adjusters tell me that I was crazy and he didn’t care if I sued State Farm. So much for paying 50% more for over 16 years to have car insurance. I now am insured with Hartford for a whole lot less. I have also noticed that State Farm makes a lot of billing errors in their favor that are hard to clear up. They over charged me by writing a second policy rather that giving me the multiple car discount until I complained. My Mom for example still uses State Farm and every time there is a change she has to personally go down to their office and wait for the to fix the errrors, overcharges, or they do not get done. I will never go back to them as in my opinion they purposely defraud their customers. These are simply my experiences with State Farm Insurance. Thank you, Kris

Response:

Hi: State Farm, as do all insurance companies. Use DRP’s (Direct Repair Programs) with independant shops, regardless of their workmanship quality. They just use a favored shop in an area, that they’ve had a relationship for years with and very few problems. The problem being, when they take on a DRP association with State Farm, State Farm let’s them write their own ticket. All the shop has to do is send State farm the pictures of the vehicle, so an inhouse adjuster can appraise the car. Which is illeagle under Pennsylvania insurance law, but they have gotten away with it so far in Pa. It does not make sense for State Farm to send an adjuster to look at a car that they saved money on, with a DRP shop. The adjuster that told you to: "Sue State Farm: was told that from an appraiser’s meeting script. (Pretty much the norm) But, the way judges, small claims courts and magistrates have been finding in favor of the insureds, all across the country, for poor workmanship. Which leads to diminished value of the vehicle, which the insurer must pay! Soon, that script will change to: "May I help you reso;ve this. With three maybe four paint jobs on that car, sell it soon! The paint will crack and peel like crazy soon. Rule of thumb, one paint job over the factory paint, strip it and do it over. I hope this helps? Refinish King PS Holler in the group if I can be of any further assistance, plus, on a screw up. State Farm should have supplied loss of use payments or a rental unit. let’s see me get flamed by a know it all now?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hmmm! Obviously the insurance company agent had a deal going with the body > shop. > I myself paid State Farm Auto for over 16 years with out a single claim and > then I got caught in a hail storm and my car needed paint and a new > windshield. So I went to a local shop Alpine Auto Body in Mount Shasta and > after his painting it 3x is was still screwed up. So I called State Farm and > they said they would take care of it. They scheduled for an adjuster to come > and look my car over, he failed show up or even call. Finally when he does > show up he argues with me for an hour how there is nothing wrong with the > paint job. The idiot had buffed the trim so it was scratched and the paint > was a mess. I finally had to drive over 130 miles round trip for State Farm > to look at it. Finally they agreed and $8500 and 9 months later the car was > finally fixed. So I was out the use of my car for almost a year the 9 months > for the second body shop and almost 3 month for the first one. I even had > one of the State Farm adjusters tell me that I was crazy and he didn’t care > if I sued State Farm. > So much for paying 50% more for over 16 years to have car insurance. I now > am insured with Hartford for a whole lot less. I have also noticed that > State Farm makes a lot of billing errors in their favor that are hard to > clear up. They over charged me by writing a second policy rather that giving > me the multiple car discount until I complained. My Mom for example still > uses State Farm and every time there is a change she has to personally go > down to their office and wait for the to fix the errrors, overcharges, or > they do not get done. I will never go back to them as in my opinion they > purposely defraud their customers. > These are simply my experiences with State Farm Insurance. > Thank you, Kris

Response:

. .

Hmmm! Obviously the insurance company agent had a deal going with the body shop. I myself paid State Farm Auto for over 16 years with out a single claim and then I got caught in a hail storm and my car needed paint and a new windshield.  So I went to a local shop Alpine Auto Body in Mount Shasta and after his painting it 3x is was still screwed up. So I called State Farm and they said they would take care of it. They scheduled for an adjuster to come and look my car over, he failed show up or even call. Finally when he does show up he argues with me for an hour how there is nothing wrong with the paint job. The idiot had buffed the trim so it was scratched and the paint was a mess. I finally had to drive over 130 miles round trip for State Farm to look at it. Finally they agreed and $8500 and 9 months later the car was finally fixed. So I was out the use of my car for almost a year the 9 months for the second body shop and almost 3 month for the first one. I even had one of the State Farm adjusters tell me that I was crazy and he didn’t care if I sued State Farm. <snip> Thank you, Kris ======= ======= Hi: State Farm, as do all insurance companies. Use DRP’s (Direct Repair Programs) with independant shops, regardless of their workmanship quality. They just use a favored shop in an area, that they’ve had a relationship for years with and very few problems. The problem being, when they take on a DRP association with State Farm, State Farm let’s them write their own ticket. All the shop has to do is send State farm the pictures of the vehicle, so an inhouse adjuster can appraise the car. Which is illeagle under Pennsylvania insurance law, but they have gotten away with it so far in Pa.  It does not make sense for State Farm to send an adjuster to look at a car that they saved money on, with a DRP shop. The adjuster that told you to: "Sue State Farm: was told that from an appraiser’s meeting script. (Pretty much the norm) But, the way judges, small claims courts and magistrates have been finding in favor of the insureds, all across the country, for poor workmanship. Which leads to diminished value of the vehicle, which the insurer must pay! Soon, that script will change to: "May I help you reso;ve this.    With three maybe four paint jobs on that car, sell it soon! The paint will crack and peel like crazy soon. Rule of thumb, one paint job over the factory paint, strip it and do it over. I hope this helps? Refinish King PS Holler in the group if I can be of any further assistance, plus, on a screw up. State Farm should have supplied loss of use payments or a rental unit. let’s see me get flamed by a know it all now? okay….. You should have told him the truth. You should have told him that the body shops the adjusters pocket in one way or another. The ONLY exceptions I have EVER seen to  when there is only one good shop in a small area. or….when an area has so many Body Shops in it, the adjusters HAVE TO be honest because the other shops would have their balls in a vice if they were’nt.  And….even then there is favortism played. I’m not saying all shops do it….because not all shops do.  But you can bet yer grannies pannies…..that IT DOES HAPPEN!  A LOT! and….anyone in the profession that says it doesn’t ….is either a liar, inexperienced, or too gullable for their own good. that’s all i got to say about that MarshMonster ~takes a sip of his crown-n-coke…..and counts all the moonpies and cuzies he got at the Mardis Gras parade today~ ps…..that wer’nt no flame….it wuz a co-rection of misinfoemation put forth in a public arena ===== =====

Response:

12 shops in my area: Immediate area that is. Small three town area consisting of maybe 35 miles. State Farm has one DRP in that general area. No pocket lining, because the adjuster hasn’t been there in three years I know the shop owner personally for 23 years. He has the nice guy charm, that the other shop operators lack, if I was still in my shop, instead of being the body shop manager for the most evil new car dealer in the area. I would have had the same amount of a chance as my friend did, but when your dealing in a small town, where people think they’re beer is more important than their bills. You get sick of the rat race and go work for the enemy, and make $1500.00 a week till he causes you a work accident that puts you out of commission for years. But I know exactly where your payola explanation comes from, when I had my shop in New York. If you didn’t give the adjuster a hundred dollar bill, he’d pull the car without looking at it. When I moved to Po Dunk Pa, I wasn’t going to let some mutant hillbillie adjuster pull the bread out of my kid’s mouth. But I know where you’re coming from MArsh! Peace! Refinish King PS That stuff doesn’t go on as much in some areas as much as others, because guys like me and the guy who has the State Farm DRP and every other companies, stood down the adjusters. The other shops, I don’t know about. He’s the only one I can say is truly a friend. If I need a favor, he’d drop what he’s doing to help me, and I the same for him.

. .

Hmmm! Obviously the insurance company agent had a deal going with the body shop. I myself paid State Farm Auto for over 16 years with out a single claim and then I got caught in a hail storm and my car needed paint and a new windshield.  So I went to a local shop Alpine Auto Body in Mount Shasta and after his painting it 3x is was still screwed up. So I called State Farm and they said they would take care of it. They scheduled for an adjuster to come and look my car over, he failed show up or even call. Finally when he does show up he argues with me for an hour how there is nothing wrong with the paint job. The idiot had buffed the trim so it was scratched and the paint was a mess. I finally had to drive over 130 miles round trip for State Farm to look at it. Finally they agreed and $8500 and 9 months later the car was finally fixed. So I was out the use of my car for almost a year the 9 months for the second body shop and almost 3 month for the first one. I even had one of the State Farm adjusters tell me that I was crazy and he didn’t care if I sued State Farm. <snip> Thank you, Kris ======= ======= Hi: State Farm, as do all insurance companies. Use DRP’s (Direct Repair Programs) with independant shops, regardless of their workmanship quality. They just use a favored shop in an area, that they’ve had a relationship for years with and very few problems. The problem being, when they take on a DRP association with State Farm, State Farm let’s them write their own ticket. All the shop has to do is send State farm the pictures of the vehicle, so an inhouse adjuster can appraise the car. Which is illeagle under Pennsylvania insurance law, but they have gotten away with it so far in Pa.  It does not make sense for State Farm to send an adjuster to look at a car that they saved money on, with a DRP shop. The adjuster that told you to: "Sue State Farm: was told that from an appraiser’s meeting script. (Pretty much the norm) But, the way judges, small claims courts and magistrates have been finding in favor of the insureds, all across the country, for poor workmanship. Which leads to diminished value of the vehicle, which the insurer must pay! Soon, that script will change to: "May I help you reso;ve this.    With three maybe four paint jobs on that car, sell it soon! The paint will crack and peel like crazy soon. Rule of thumb, one paint job over the factory paint, strip it and do it over. I hope this helps? Refinish King PS Holler in the group if I can be of any further assistance, plus, on a screw up. State Farm should have supplied loss of use payments or a rental unit. let’s see me get flamed by a know it all now? okay….. You should have told him the truth. You should have told him that the body shops the adjusters pocket in one way or another. The ONLY exceptions I have EVER seen to  when there is only one good shop in a small area. or….when an area has so many Body Shops in it, the adjusters HAVE TO be honest because the other shops would have their balls in a vice if they were’nt.  And….even then there is favortism played. I’m not saying all shops do it….because not all shops do.  But you can bet yer grannies pannies…..that IT DOES HAPPEN!  A LOT! and….anyone in the profession that says it doesn’t ….is either a liar, inexperienced, or too gullable for their own good. that’s all i got to say about that MarshMonster ~takes a sip of his crown-n-coke…..and counts all the moonpies and cuzies he got at the Mardis Gras parade today~ ps…..that wer’nt no flame….it wuz a co-rection of misinfoemation put forth in a public arena ===== =====

Response:

. . ====== ====== 12 shops in my area: Immediate area that is. Small three town area consisting of maybe 35 miles. State Farm has one DRP in that general area. No pocket lining, because the adjuster hasn’t been there in three years I know the shop owner personally for 23 years. He has the nice guy charm, that the other shop operators lack, if I was still in my shop, instead of being the body shop manager for the most evil new car dealer in the area. I would have had the same amount of a chance as my friend did, but when your dealing in a small town, where people think they’re beer is more important than their bills. You get sick of the rat race and go work for the enemy, and make $1500.00 a week till he causes you a work accident that puts you out of commission for years. But I know exactly where your payola explanation comes from, when I had my shop in New York. If you didn’t give the adjuster a hundred dollar bill, he’d pull the car without looking at it. When I moved to Po Dunk Pa, I wasn’t going to let some mutant hillbillie adjuster pull the bread out of my kid’s mouth. But I know where you’re coming from MArsh! Peace! Refinish King PS That stuff doesn’t go on as much in some areas as much as others, because guys like me and the guy who has the State Farm DRP and every other companies, stood down the adjusters. The other shops, I don’t know about. He’s the only one I can say is truly a friend. If I need a favor, he’d drop what he’s doing to help me, and I the same for him. King,     I came up in a small town body shop in SC, (Florida now…) so I know what you mean about the "beer".   The towns grown a heck of lot since the 60’s and 70’s….so things have changed there since. But there’s still that one shop that gets all the work…..and it ain’t cuz he’s does a classy paint job either brother. any whoooo……   I’ve been guilty of it myself in the past.  Before my Father retired….he stayed the buisiest shop in town.  And, in honesty, it was due in part to the fact that he padded the adjusters pockets. Now this was back in the early 70’s….and in a small town where all the insurance adjusters one hand washes the other.  But looking back on it, He really didn’t need to do it, I just don’t think that he knew he didn’t need to do it.  He had the best shop around when it came to quality and service and everyone that sent him the work loved him to death anyways. But like I said….no one back then really thought much about giving a guy a "kickback".  Dad always considered it advertising expenses.    Now-a-days…..it’s gonna get you in the jail house.  And rightly so IMO.    To His credit….Dad never gave cash.  All the mechanics around town, the car salesmen, the insurance adjusters, the parts men, would drop by after work…….drink up Pops ready supply of "Miller" beer, play guitars, play poker, and get lit up till around 8 or 9 in the evening. (small town….not a lot to do) well……every once in while…..one of them car salesmen or an insurance adjuster would "let slip" that his wifes washing machine broke down…….or how the ole lady wanted to go out to eat at a particuler restaurant…… Pop never offered a thing…..but somehow…. stuff just showed up at folks  houses…. kinda mysterious like.   Washers, Dryers, TV’s, $300 cars for a kids graduation present…those sorts of things. He had a good buisness…….lol. any whooo….. It does still happen, but like you said, it has a lot to do with area and character, and…it ain’t jest the BodyShops that do it. by the way….. I called you "Kansas Jack" in another post…. think’n you knew what one was. ?? marsh ~:~ ======= =======

Response:

Kansas Jack body dozer: Like the blackhawk, only better. That’s why Kansas Jack bought out Blackhawk. Too bad some offshore assholes gobbled everything up and even the Snap On YA 720 is an off shore piece of shit now. The only American made jacks now are OTC. Brewco was a smart company, old man Quinton Brewer bought the Blackhawk name and the patent for the system 4 rack, not that it was any prize. Either is the chief. The Caroliner was the most advanced machine, till they went ricebound and went to the 1" steel laser cut top to save money like every one else. Peace! Refinish King

. . ====== ====== 12 shops in my area: Immediate area that is. Small three town area consisting of maybe 35 miles. State Farm has one DRP in that general area. No pocket lining, because the adjuster hasn’t been there in three years I know the shop owner personally for 23 years. He has the nice guy charm, that the other shop operators lack, if I was still in my shop, instead of being the body shop manager for the most evil new car dealer in the area. I would have had the same amount of a chance as my friend did, but when your dealing in a small town, where people think they’re beer is more important than their bills. You get sick of the rat race and go work for the enemy, and make $1500.00 a week till he causes you a work accident that puts you out of commission for years. But I know exactly where your payola explanation comes from, when I had my shop in New York. If you didn’t give the adjuster a hundred dollar bill, he’d pull the car without looking at it. When I moved to Po Dunk Pa, I wasn’t going to let some mutant hillbillie adjuster pull the bread out of my kid’s mouth. But I know where you’re coming from MArsh! Peace! Refinish King PS That stuff doesn’t go on as much in some areas as much as others, because guys like me and the guy who has the State Farm DRP and every other companies, stood down the adjusters. The other shops, I don’t know about. He’s the only one I can say is truly a friend. If I need a favor, he’d drop what he’s doing to help me, and I the same for him. King,     I came up in a small town body shop in SC, (Florida now…) so I know what you mean about the "beer". The towns grown a heck of lot since the 60’s and 70’s….so things have changed there since. But there’s still that one shop that gets all the work…..and it ain’t cuz he’s does a classy paint job either brother. any whoooo……   I’ve been guilty of it myself in the past.  Before my Father retired….he stayed the buisiest shop in town.  And, in honesty, it was due in part to the fact that he padded the adjusters pockets. Now this was back in the early 70’s….and in a small town where all the insurance adjusters one hand washes the other.  But looking back on it, He really didn’t need to do it, I just don’t think that he knew he didn’t need to do it.  He had the best shop around when it came to quality and service and everyone that sent him the work loved him to death anyways. But like I said….no one back then really thought much about giving a guy a "kickback".  Dad always considered it advertising expenses.  Now-a-days…..it’s gonna get you in the jail house.  And rightly so IMO.    To His credit….Dad never gave cash.  All the mechanics around town, the car salesmen, the insurance adjusters, the parts men, would drop by after work…….drink up Pops ready supply of "Miller" beer, play guitars, play poker, and get lit up till around 8 or 9 in the evening. (small town….not a lot to do) well……every once in while…..one of them car salesmen or an insurance adjuster would "let slip" that his wifes washing machine broke down…….or how the ole lady wanted to go out to eat at a particuler restaurant…… Pop never offered a thing…..but somehow…. stuff just showed up at folks  houses…. kinda mysterious like.   Washers, Dryers, TV’s, $300 cars for a kids graduation present…those sorts of things. He had a good buisness…….lol. any whooo….. It does still happen, but like you said, it has a lot to do with area and character, and…it ain’t jest the BodyShops that do it. by the way….. I called you "Kansas Jack" in another post…. think’n you knew what one was. ?? marsh ~:~ ======= =======

Response:

Cheap insurance is great until you have a claim.  Or an unethical agent.  I wonder if the agent got a kickback. The last time I needed body shop work, which, fortunately, was a long time ago, I called my car dealer to find out who they recommend.  I figured that they would recommend someone who is buying original manufacturer crash parts through them. Then I got a list of approved body shops from the insurance company, and I picked the one off the list that the car dealer recommended. They did a good job.  Then 2 years later, they also did a good job on another repair done for a good friend. Ray

Response:

   Well all I can say is that you saved money because they didn’t charge you for the Vaseline that they all used on you, because you got ROYALLY fucked!!! Don’t feel special though, far to many people don’t know their rights when it comes to accidents, insurance companies, body shops, etc., etc..    Allot of advice can be given from me and allot of others but it varies from state to state and sometimes cities have some of their own laws.     The basics are this(from MY experience in the body shop biz), YOU pick the body shop(DONT let the insurance company pick them), you only need ONE estimate and it doesn’t have to be from the shop where you get it fixed(the last part is touchy, but it can be done), NEVER sign off on the car(receive as you put it) until it is inspected by an independent company or the state itself.    I know this is of little comfort to you and your ROYALLY fucked ass at this point, but maybe your loss now will keep you from getting fucked again and you can pass it on to others.    I am sorry if it sounds like I am picking on you, I aint(maybe a little ~sic~ sorry). Make the system work for you, be the ass, make them sweat, ask the questions, don’t trust ‘em, don’t trust ‘em, get input from others, oh, did I mention, DONT TRUST ‘EM?!?!?!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This may seem more like something out of the X-Files, but it seems > awfully suspicious to me. Let me tell you how I got burned, and then > feel free to respond back with your thoughts (I’m curious if I’m just > crazy or if I may be on to something). About three months ago I was in > an auto accident. My insurance provider is Progressive insurance. They > drove out to the scene to take pictures, etc.. At that time the > insurance agent on the scene said "where do you want to have the car > towed for repairs", "I highly recommend body shop x or body shop y, > they do excellent work and we deal with them all the time". >  I was still in a state of disarray and confusion and was glad to have > their advise (after all I knew almost 100% that the claim would be > filled on the other parties insurance and I knew their provider was > not Progressive), so I took their advise and had the car towed to one > of their recommended repair shops.  The next day I called the repair > shop who told me the adjuster would probably take a few days to come > out (he ended up taking a week), the day he finally made it out they > called back to tell me the car would probably take about a week to > repair, though bits of the conversation which I can’t remember the > body shop repair manager let it slip (or maybe he didn’t care if I > knew) that he had delt with this adjuster before and he implied that > had helped the car from being totaled out, he also stated in the phone > call that he didn’t feel the frame was damaged (later I would find out > it was). > Almost two months later I get my car back. I walk into the body shop > for the first time and notice a small plaque on the wall which > represented some kind of Progressive insurance award. I was starting > to feel sick then, little did I know what was coming. I got the car > back that day only to find that the work had been done incompletely, > the gear shift rod had been bent in the accident and they had failed > to notice and repair this. So the car went back in, two weeks later I > received the car again. This time the "service engine" light came on > I took the car in to have this checked out and was given a very hard > time by the insurance company and the body shop. They didn’t want to > deal with it and they had third-party mechanic look at who wrote up a > statement saying he didn’t feel this issue was wreck related. I > contacted the insurance company handling the claim (SafeCo) and they > agreed to hire and send out an "external adjuster" who was suppose to > call me to talk about the problems I was having. This adjuster never > called, instead I got a call from SafeCo the day he checked out the > car saying something very close to ". the report is in, the engine > light problem is not wreck related, pick it up and have a nice day". > I look into legal options and it’s not worth pursuing. > A few days later I take the car in to a few dealerships to see what I > can get for it on trade and everyone is saying the same thing "this > car has frame damage. it should have probably been totaled. look all > these parts says "made in Twian" you can tell they used cheap parts!" > To sum up, NADA value on my car (trade in value) was right at $10,000 > The honest dealers told me they could get me about $7000-$8000 if the > frame damage and use of generic (non OEM) parts wasn’t apparent (all > this thanks to the body shop). The best offer I could get was for > about $5000. Low ball offers came as low as $3500. One of the apprial > guys even walked me around the car and pointed out ten or so obvious > flaws where the body shop had done sloppy; things under the hood I > would have never noticed. This same gentleman pointed out that with a > damaged frame the vehicle has to come with a giant disclaimer > regardless of where it is sold, he explained that this makes it > useless to him for resale purposes (I’ve confirmed this seems to be > the case, as it’s the same story everyone tells me), he also said that > if a competent mechanic had done the work to adjust the frame and used > non-generic parts, he felt the value would have been up to $2000 > higher (Keep in mind this person knew that we weren’t going to be able > to make a deal at this point). He also offered me advise about the > diminished value claim I could attempt to make on the insurance > company, but warned that it would likely have to be a legal battle to > get this money. > So that’s where I’m at with all this. I just wanted to share my story, > and see if anyone else thinks there may be a network/web of "partners" > in this industry who do things under the table for each other. I have > no proof such a network exist, but it seems odd to me that in this > accident, everyone seems to win but me: > -Body Shop wins because they were able to perform mediocre work and > still get paid well, although the offer "full lifetime warranty" on > all the work they do, but they seem to have found a way around this > claiming that some of the damage (engine light problems) was not wreck > related, and with two adjusters (both hired from SafeCo insurance) to > back their claim there isn’t much I can do. > -SafeCo wins because they got a great deal from the body shop, > obviously arrangements were made to use generic parts without asking > me (this was most likely done between the first adjuster and the body > shop), I "received" the car (this means I signed off for it relieving > SafeCo of any further liability) under the impression from the body > shop that if anything else was wrong they would take care of it. > -The dealerships win on the trade in value of my car, because with the > frame damage they can now give me next to nothing for my vehicle > If you see that a body shop has won awards from a specific insurance > company, you may want to rethink using them. > LEGAL DISCLAIMER: This e-mail is not intended to make public > accusations against SafeCo or Progressive Insurance, its only intent > is to document assumptions made by the author based on events that > happened exactly as stated here and by doing so, gain advice and query > for the opinion of other active users of this public forum.

There was definitely something smelly going on when your own insurance company recommended the disreputable body shop, even though your company would not be paying the bill.  They screwed you over big time.  If I were you, I’d see if I could file a complaint with the insurance regulators in your state and I would let Progressive know that I was doing that and why. I’d complain like hell and maybe, just maybe some of this might be made right.  If not, at least you will have done all you can do.

Response:

>[snip]

There most certianly is a relationship between many insurance co.s and body shops. The shops cut costs, (ie., by using Twianese parts), for the insurance co.s, and in return, the ins. co. steers business their way. The shops that ‘play ball’ are usually called something like "Preferred Provider" or "xxx Partner" or something similar. In other words, run, don’t walk from whoever your insurance co. ‘recomends’. Regardless where you take any vehicle in for bodywork, make it clear, (I’ve written it right across the form), that you will only accept work on your car that uses OEM parts. End of discussion. Between the hidden damage and substandard parts, you obviously have a claim, and I wouldn’t let it go. The hard part might be finding an atty who understands and has expertise in this field. Nothing eases the knawing in the stomach that comes with someone getting away with ass-fucking you like beating them in court. Well ok, killing them in an excruactingly long, drawn out way would be the most satisfying, but you probably wouldn’t get away with it. Good luck.

Response:

This may seem more like something out of the X-Files, but it seems awfully suspicious to me. Let me tell you how I got burned, and then feel free to respond back with your thoughts (I’m curious if I’m just crazy or if I may be on to something). About three months ago I was in an auto accident. My insurance provider is Progressive insurance. They drove out to the scene to take pictures, etc.. At that time the insurance agent on the scene said "where do you want to have the car towed for repairs", "I highly recommend body shop x or body shop y, they do excellent work and we deal with them all the time".  I was still in a state of disarray and confusion and was glad to have their advise (after all I knew almost 100% that the claim would be filled on the other parties insurance and I knew their provider was not Progressive), so I took their advise and had the car towed to one of their recommended repair shops.  The next day I called the repair shop who told me the adjuster would probably take a few days to come out (he ended up taking a week), the day he finally made it out they called back to tell me the car would probably take about a week to repair, though bits of the conversation which I can’t remember the body shop repair manager let it slip (or maybe he didn’t care if I knew) that he had delt with this adjuster before and he implied that had helped the car from being totaled out, he also stated in the phone call that he didn’t feel the frame was damaged (later I would find out it was). Almost two months later I get my car back. I walk into the body shop for the first time and notice a small plaque on the wall which represented some kind of Progressive insurance award. I was starting to feel sick then, little did I know what was coming. I got the car back that day only to find that the work had been done incompletely, the gear shift rod had been bent in the accident and they had failed to notice and repair this. So the car went back in, two weeks later I received the car again. This time the "service engine" light came on I took the car in to have this checked out and was given a very hard time by the insurance company and the body shop. They didn’t want to deal with it and they had third-party mechanic look at who wrote up a statement saying he didn’t feel this issue was wreck related. I contacted the insurance company handling the claim (SafeCo) and they agreed to hire and send out an "external adjuster" who was suppose to call me to talk about the problems I was having

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: > Hi all, > When I was visiting the U.S. in 1994. I was amazed at how you guys would > dry your washing in a drier! Here in Australia and the rest of the world for > that > matter just hang them out in the sun. Surely simple things like that will > dramatically reduce your demand on electricity. Not to mention reduce > Greenhouse gas. Try it! > How much? > Given that water has a much higher specific heat than air, I’d bet > you’d use more energy heating up water for your washing machine than > you’d use heating the air in the dryer to dry the laundry off.

You are mixing two different processes:     – While heating water, it stays in liquid state and ( this is and adventure for a french man used to metric) it uses one BTU to raise one pound of water by one degree F.     – While drying water, its goes from liquid state to vapor state. You have to supply the vaporization latent heat to the water, a much higher amount of energy. You don’t need to dry your clothe one a string outside, a laundry room is perfect for drying. But if you dry outside, you will have a free positive side effects, UV from sun light kills germs and whitens white cloth (less bleach). > And most dryers are only used a couple of hours a week. In the north, > furnaces run for hours every day in winter, and in the south, A/C’s > run hours every day in summer. > Make A/C 5% more efficient and you’ve got the billion dollar a year > invention.

You right, but another billion dollar invention is to set your AC couple of degrees higher, like setting you Heating system couple of degrees lower. Lots of people over the world live whithout AC. When I arrived in South Carolina in july, I had to wear warm clothe to stand the cold when entering buildings. Alain – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Scott

Response:

> This is the second time that America’s antique electrical grid has > brought down  large parts of Canada’s system with it.  I think we have > totally incompetent electrical engineers on both side of the border > that should be made personally and financially responsible for their > incompetence.

From what I read, just before the failure about 500 megawatts was flowing from Michigan into Ontario.  Unlinking means that Canada can’t draw from the US when it needs the extra power nor can it sell to the US when it has extra power.

Response:

> Hi all, > When I was visiting the U.S. in 1994. I was amazed at how you guys would > dry your washing in a drier! Here in Australia and the rest of the world for > that > matter just hang them out in the sun. Surely simple things like that will > dramatically reduce your demand on electricity. Not to mention reduce > Greenhouse gas. Try it!

A couple of points: The reason people use electric dryers is because they are labor saving. You are trading 20 cents of electricity for $5 in labor to hang and retrieive clothes from a line. You are saving time to do what you want to do instead of the chore of handling laundry. All appliances, washing machines, dryers, mixers, microwaves, dishwashers, blenders, food processors, vacuum cleaners, etc. trade a few cents in electricity for dollars and hours of labor. It’s simple economics. The blackout had nothing to do with demand. The demand was average that day and the system was nowhere near capacity. The electricity grid system is a chaotic system and is inherently unstable. A small perterbation or change can cause a major fluctuation or disruption in a chaotic system and that happens from time to time. The problem is made worse by the fact that generators cut loose from the grid immediately shut down because there is no place for their power to go. Once shut down, they take hours to days to come back on line, thus the long black out period. A better, more stable system would dump cut out power into a dummy load without shutting down generators. They then could be brought back on line in minutes instead of hours and days. The whole thing is exasperated by the free market concept of buying and selling power in blocks and shipping it around the grid minute by minute. It’s like a bunch of banana vendors buying and selling their excess bananas and weelbarrowing them back and fourth to each other all over the place. This kind of activity can easily excite a chaotic system which was never designed to handle this "banana" traffic. Now, should the public finance and pay for a new grid system so the power traders can play their games? I say no. Lets go back to a more rational system of generating and consuming power locally. Bob

Response:

Hi all, When I was visiting the U.S. in 1994. I was amazed at how you guys would dry your washing in a drier! Here in Australia and the rest of the world for that matter just hang them out in the sun. Surely simple things like that will dramatically reduce your demand on electricity. Not to mention reduce Greenhouse gas. Try it!

Response:

> Hi all, > When I was visiting the U.S. in 1994. I was amazed at how you guys would > dry your washing in a drier! Here in Australia and the rest of the world for > that > matter just hang them out in the sun. Surely simple things like that will > dramatically reduce your demand on electricity. Not to mention reduce > Greenhouse gas. Try it!

How much? Given that water has a much higher specific heat than air, I’d bet you’d use more energy heating up water for your washing machine than you’d use heating the air in the dryer to dry the laundry off. And most dryers are only used a couple of hours a week. In the north, furnaces run for hours every day in winter, and in the south, A/C’s run hours every day in summer. Make A/C 5% more efficient and you’ve got the billion dollar a year invention. Scott

Response:

> Hi all, <…> > dramatically reduce your demand on electricity. Not to mention reduce > Greenhouse gas. Try it!

Reduce Greenhouse gas? More ‘lectric trains ‘n scooters for everyone, ‘n nuclear plants to run ‘em, sez I! -dl

Response:

> a gshp is 5% more efficient than a/c….. > Make A/C 5% more efficient and you’ve got the billion dollar a year > invention. > Scott

Is that why it cost a $billion to install one? -dl

Response:

says… > Hi all, > When I was visiting the U.S. in 1994. I was amazed at how you guys would > dry your washing in a drier! Here in Australia and the rest of the world for > that > matter just hang them out in the sun. Surely simple things like that will > dramatically reduce your demand on electricity. Not to mention reduce > Greenhouse gas. Try it! > How much?

According to this site you can expect it to be around 5kWh or around 33 cents a load at $0.065/KWh. http://www.nppd.com/customers/usage.asp Most people probably pay more than 6.5 cents per kilowatt these days.   I agree that a clothes line can be pretty useful in the conservation equation, although it does have its limitations.  Dusty, windy, rainy or freezing weather can all play havoc with your laundry.  It’s a nice surprise to walk out to the clothes line in the morning and find the clothes frozen stiff as a board .   > Given that water has a much higher specific heat than air, I’d bet > you’d use more energy heating up water for your washing machine than > you’d use heating the air in the dryer to dry the laundry off. > And most dryers are only used a couple of hours a week. In the north, > furnaces run for hours every day in winter, and in the south, A/C’s > run hours every day in summer. > Make A/C 5% more efficient and you’ve got the billion dollar a year > invention.

Most evap coolers, which use less electricity than AC to begin with, have all kinds of obvious inefficiencies.  Many of them use a fan belt to turn a squirrel cage blower.  Some of the "D-belts" have slippage rates of as high as 20-30% due to stretching, etc. If instead they used a timing or "gear" belt, which is designed to reduce slippage, they could reduce mechanical slippage to under 5%, thereby saving a goodly portion of mechanical energy right there.   As far as AC goes, there are lots of schemes for increasing efficiency.   But they often are too expensive to implement practically.   —       Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com) "It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, ‘mad cow’ disease, and many others, but I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world’s great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate."  – Richard Dawkins

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This is the second time that America’s antique electrical grid has brought down  large parts of Canada’s system with it.  I think we have totally incompetent electrical engineers on both side of the border that should be made personally and financially responsible for their incompetence.

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Last I installed one it was about $15k ….. — Steve Spence www.green-trust.org

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> a gshp is 5% more efficient than a/c….. > > Make A/C 5% more efficient and you’ve got the billion dollar a year > > invention. > > Scott > Is that why it cost a $billion to install one? > -dl

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> > How much? > According to this site you can expect it to be around 5kWh or around 33 > cents a load at $0.065/KWh. > http://www.nppd.com/customers/usage.asp > Most people probably pay more than 6.5 cents per kilowatt these days.  

Ok. Thanks. Looks like my conjecture was wrong. Drying is a bit more energy than washing. I knew that it would be close enough to not take claims on faith, but not which way it would go. Thanks for the URL. > Make A/C 5% more efficient and you’ve got the billion dollar a year > invention. > Most evap coolers, which use less electricity than AC to begin with, have > all kinds of obvious inefficiencies.

They also have other requirements that compressor-based A/C doesn’t have:   * A continous supply of working fluid to evaporate   * Ability to evaporate that working fluid (hard in houston’s humidity)   * Sediment and minerals in the water has to be controlled and flushed.   * Since its open-air, what keeps bacteria from colonizing the fluid.   * Since evaporative coolers can only cool to the dewpoint (75F right   * now), higher volumes of fluid have to be pumped around compared to   * a colder working fluid. > Many of them use a fan belt to turn a squirrel cage blower.  Some of > the "D-belts" have slippage rates of as high as 20-30% due to > stretching, etc.

As an aside, does slippage matter? If the motor isn’t doing work (spinning the fan) then its not consuming (much) power. > As far as AC goes, there are lots of schemes for increasing efficiency.   > But they often are too expensive to implement practically.  

Yup. Perhaps I should have elaborated my request. 5% without increasing the expense of the unit. That would save me $50 this year. Scott

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writes: > When I was visiting the U.S. in 1994. I was amazed at how you guys would > dry your washing in a drier! Here in Australia and the rest of the world for > that > matter just hang them out in the sun. Surely simple things like that will > dramatically reduce your demand on electricity. Not to mention reduce > Greenhouse gas. Try it! > Given that water has a much higher specific heat than air, I’d bet > you’d use more energy heating up water for your washing machine than > you’d use heating the air in the dryer to dry the laundry off.

Mmm, non sequitur. You have to evaporate the water in the clothing, which is the latent heat of evaporation, much larger than the specific heat of water. Achieving this in a closed environment is very difficult. The specific heat of air is hugely irrelevant. At least you post with a valid e-mail address. Roland p.s. I have a family of 5 kids, plus two guest-houses. The clothes line is a big saver. — Roland and Lisa Paterson-Jones Forest Lodge, Stirrup Lane, Hout Bay http://www.rolandpj.com/forest-lodge mobile: +27 72 386 8045

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> > Given that water has a much higher specific heat than air, I’d bet > you’d use more energy heating up water for your washing machine than > you’d use heating the air in the dryer to dry the laundry off. > Mmm, non sequitur. You have to evaporate the water in the clothing, > which is the latent heat of evaporation, much larger than the > specific heat of water.  Achieving this in a closed environment is > very difficult. The specific heat of air is hugely irrelevant.

This is a red herring. A clothes dryer is not a closed environment. The energy used by the dryer is that used to heat the air and to circulate the clothes. The energy used by the washer is to heat the water and to circulate the tub. Since those are the energies used, those are the energies to comparing. Given that the specific heat of air and water differ so much, I knew it would be difficult to call which used more energy without numbers (which quibbler supplied). Scott

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> Hi all, > When I was visiting the U.S. in 1994. I was amazed at how you guys would > dry your washing in a drier! Here in Australia and the rest of the world for > that matter just hang them out in the sun. Surely simple things like that will > dramatically reduce your demand on electricity. Not to mention reduce > Greenhouse gas. Try it!

Reducing demand in the west is an impossible proposition considering that net 3rd world immigratioin into the west is running at between 0.5% to 1% per anum. Clothes driers are becoming more common in Australia as more and more people who need to live in the city ( becuase that is where the jobs and infrastructure are ) are forced into high and medium density housing. You can convert from a plain hot air drier to a condensing drier. These use a refrigenation cycle to prduce the heat and also condense the water vapour.  They use about 1/3rd the electricity and doesn’t steam up the house. The price goes up from $300 to $1400.  Unfortunatly this is well beyond most people. Preumably a drieng closet in a sort of glass house in the attic using hot air/water/wax from a solar thermal system would be most efficient.  Again a capital intensive job.

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a gshp is 5% more efficient than a/c….. — Steve Spence www.green-trust.org – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – writes: > Hi all, > When I was visiting the U.S. in 1994. I was amazed at how you guys would > dry your washing in a drier! Here in Australia and the rest of the world for > that > matter just hang them out in the sun. Surely simple things like that will > dramatically reduce your demand on electricity. Not to mention reduce > Greenhouse gas. Try it! > How much? > Given that water has a much higher specific heat than air, I’d bet > you’d use more energy heating up water for your washing machine than > you’d use heating the air in the dryer to dry the laundry off. > And most dryers are only used a couple of hours a week. In the north, > furnaces run for hours every day in winter, and in the south, A/C’s > run hours every day in summer. > Make A/C 5% more efficient and you’ve got the billion dollar a year > invention. > Scott

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Question:

>Hey Steve, I just bought one of those >heaters from Breck on Ebay. It should >arrive Monday via UPS. Now I’m >searching for a stock tank to put it in.

   Tractor Supply Co. – or any other farm-supply store – has this, plus more other useful stuff than you’d imagine. <B>Dissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather <I><A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b></i>

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Thanks. Their nearest store is about a 4 hour drive from me. I guess all of the farmers moved out of NH. There are Dodges Agway stores around here, but the stock tanks that they have on hand are not suitable. Rubbermaid makes a nice one, but I just can’t find one locally. I’ll keep looking.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hey Steve, I just bought one of those >heaters from Breck on Ebay. It should >arrive Monday via UPS. Now I’m >searching for a stock tank to put it in. >    Tractor Supply Co. – or any other farm-supply store – has this, plus more > other useful stuff than you’d imagine. > <B>Dissident news – plus immigration, gun rights, nationwide weather > <I><A HREF="http://www.alamanceind.com">ALAMANCE INDEPENDENT: > official newspaper of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy</A></b></i>

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> we were out for 30 days in e big ice storm of ‘97 > 5kw gennie and a woodstove. our pv and wind were useless.

 What happpened to your system? Iced solid? It hit here, too, but everyone I know that was PV and wind was still up. DJ

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We had a good 4" of ice, but even after I knocked it all off, there was no wind, and the fog was so thick, no sun. It was eerily quiet, not a whisper of sound except the cracking of branches. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> we were out for 30 days in e big ice storm of ‘97 > 5kw gennie and a woodstove. our pv and wind were useless. >  What happpened to your system? Iced solid? It hit here, too, but > everyone I know that was PV and wind was still up. > DJ

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> The epa claims it’s illegal for an epa stove to be banned. hmmmm…..

Many of the cities were built in depressions, along major waterways (Raleigh, Fayetteville) or coastal lowlands and pollution has nowhere to go. Shoot, in Raleigh you can’t even work on your car at your own home……. ben – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Steve Spence > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > http://www.green-trust.org > > In this year’s big icestorm, there were a few million people without > power > > for several days here in North Carolina.  I want to be able to run my > gas > > heater, a couple of electric lights, and my soon to be gas regular or > > on-demand water heater at a reasonable cost.  What have people done > beyond > > using generators to provide a minimal emergency electric supply for > several > > days?  What would a designer consider for this type of situation? > > Thanks, > > David > The gas heaters ID plate should list it’s required wattage usage, > including > blower. A gas water heater with a pilot light doesn’t need power, though > newer ones have pizeo-electric ignitors and do require a little wattage. > Add > the wattage plus anything else you need/want to operate (fridge, etc) and > consider that to be 80% of the size you need (then go up one size > generator. > PS For Steve; some municipalities in NC have banned wood stoves (even with > converters). Think they’re trying to reduce our hick aura, would make more > sense to require the power companies to supply reliable power > ben

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>I wish I could capture the waste heat from the genny and use it. The [...] >The only cure I have found for diesel noise is distance.

Perhaps a loop of buried/insulated pipe between the shed and house with a heat exchanger on each side?  not sure how much you’d gain from having to run the fan/pump. — be safe. flip ^___^  Count to three. Make a wish. Close your eyes. ^.^/  Wait. Scratch that, reverse it. ==u==  - apologies to Roald Dahl

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> >I wish I could capture the waste heat from the genny and use it. The > [...] >The only cure I have found for diesel noise is distance. > Perhaps a loop of buried/insulated pipe between the shed and house > with a heat exchanger on each side?  not sure how much you’d gain from > having to run the fan/pump.

    Several years ago, my grandfather built a house that was going to function as the headquarters for a largish housing development.  There was no power there, and wouldn’t be for a couple of years, so he put in a large diesel generator to run the place.  It was put in the basement of the detached garage, and the exhaust was routed out through a large pipe that was buried under the back driveway, and came out about one hundred feet further away from the house.     In the room with the generator, talking was done with raised voices, not needing to shout, and when the doors were closed ( two  doors, fire rated, and the walls were 12 inch thick concrete )  all that could be heard was a rumble that was more felt than heard.  Exhaust noise at the end of the exhaust pipe was negligible.     You could tap exhaust heat by using some sort of earth tube, but the risk of drawing exhaust gases into your building if there is a failure some years down the road is higher than I would prefer.   You can tap the heat from the engine radiator.  The US Navy uses engine radiator heat for running evaporators and so on at sea.  Just need to run a pipe to a radiator inside, and increase the size of the water pump.     –Dale

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>    You could tap exhaust heat by using some sort of earth tube, but the >risk of drawing exhaust gases into your building if there is a failure

Sorry… i guess i wasn’t clear… I meant a "closed" loop (with pump) tween the two places… filled with a coolant or other non freezing liquid which circulates and has a heat exchanger on both sides… >You can tap the heat from the engine radiator.

a better idea…. I was thinking of the ambiant air around the engine, but a direct tap into the coolant system would be good too… Was the exhaust in your system enought to help melt the snow/ice on the driveway? — be safe. flip ^___^  Count to three. Make a wish. Close your eyes. ^.^/  Wait. Scratch that, reverse it. ==u==  - apologies to Roald Dahl

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> >    You could tap exhaust heat by using some sort of earth tube, but the >risk of drawing exhaust gases into your building if there is a failure > Sorry… i guess i wasn’t clear… > I meant a "closed" loop (with pump) tween the two places… filled > with a coolant or other non freezing liquid which circulates and has a > heat exchanger on both sides… >You can tap the heat from the engine radiator. > a better idea…. I was thinking of the ambiant air around the engine, > but a direct tap into the coolant system would be good too… > Was the exhaust in your system enought to help melt the snow/ice on > the driveway?

    Oh no.  THis was in Canada, and it was buried about ten feet down from the finished surface.     –Dale

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> If I were worried about such things, I’d be inclined to have a generator > that can run my fridge and gas powered furnace and water heater.  Getting > enough juice to run an electric water heater would be way to expensive to > be practical.  Besides, you can live w/o hot water for a few days.

Why go without hot water altogether?  I’d think a good heat exchanger on the exhaust of the generator could provide suitably warm water for comfortable bathing, at the very least. — Joe Bramblett, KD5NRH

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> If I were worried about such things, I’d be inclined to have a generator > that can run my fridge and gas powered furnace and water heater. Getting > enough juice to run an electric water heater would be way to expensive to > be practical.  Besides, you can live w/o hot water for a few days. > Why go without hot water altogether?  I’d think a good heat exchanger on > the exhaust of the generator could provide suitably warm water for > comfortable bathing, at the very least.

The OP mentioned emergencies.  Heat is something you almost have to have, but hot water is a luxury, at least for the few days we wouyld be talking about here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Joe Bramblett, KD5NRH

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wood makes nice heat for bathing…. http://webconx.green-trust.org/2003/hottub/ — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If I were worried about such things, I’d be inclined to have a generator > that can run my fridge and gas powered furnace and water heater. Getting > enough juice to run an electric water heater would be way to expensive to > be practical.  Besides, you can live w/o hot water for a few days. > Why go without hot water altogether?  I’d think a good heat exchanger on > the exhaust of the generator could provide suitably warm water for > comfortable bathing, at the very least. > — > Joe Bramblett, KD5NRH

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> Trouble is, in my case, I can’t have that gas heater flame in the > building- I use flammable solvents.

You can buy gas water heaters intended for outside installation. — Free men own guns – slaves don’t http://www.geocities.com/nickhull99

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> wood makes nice heat for bathing…. > http://webconx.green-trust.org/2003/hottub/

Hey Steve, I just bought one of those heaters from Breck on Ebay. It should arrive Monday via UPS. Now I’m searching for a stock tank to put it in.

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our local fish / aquarium place stocks the plastic fish pools. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> wood makes nice heat for bathing…. > http://webconx.green-trust.org/2003/hottub/ > Hey Steve, I just bought one of those heaters from Breck on Ebay. It should > arrive Monday via UPS. Now I’m searching for a stock tank to put it in.

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In this year’s big icestorm, there were a few million people without power for several days here in North Carolina.  I want to be able to run my gas heater, a couple of electric lights, and my soon to be gas regular or on-demand water heater at a reasonable cost.  What have people done beyond using generators to provide a minimal emergency electric supply for several days?  What would a designer consider for this type of situation? Thanks, David

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> In this year’s big icestorm, there were a few million people without power > for several days here in North Carolina.  I want to be able to run my gas > heater, a couple of electric lights, and my soon to be gas regular or > on-demand water heater at a reasonable cost.  What have people done beyond > using generators to provide a minimal emergency electric supply for several > days?  What would a designer consider for this type of situation? > Thanks, > David

If I were worried about such things, I’d be inclined to have a generator that can run my fridge and gas powered furnace and water heater.  Getting enough juice to run an electric water heater would be way to expensive to be practical.  Besides, you can live w/o hot water for a few days.  I’d suggest some sort of transfer switch with the generator outside. You can get some really practical advice on this kind of setup on alt.energy.homepower.

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we were out for 30 days in e big ice storm of ‘97 5kw gennie and a woodstove. our pv and wind were useless. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In this year’s big icestorm, there were a few million people without power > for several days here in North Carolina.  I want to be able to run my gas > heater, a couple of electric lights, and my soon to be gas regular or > on-demand water heater at a reasonable cost.  What have people done beyond > using generators to provide a minimal emergency electric supply for several > days?  What would a designer consider for this type of situation? > Thanks, > David

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> In this year’s big icestorm, there were a few million people without power > for several days here in North Carolina.  I want to be able to run my gas > heater, a couple of electric lights, and my soon to be gas regular or > on-demand water heater at a reasonable cost.  What have people done beyond > using generators to provide a minimal emergency electric supply for several > days?  What would a designer consider for this type of situation? > Thanks, > David

The gas heaters ID plate should list it’s required wattage usage, including blower. A gas water heater with a pilot light doesn’t need power, though newer ones have pizeo-electric ignitors and do require a little wattage. Add the wattage plus anything else you need/want to operate (fridge, etc) and consider that to be 80% of the size you need (then go up one size generator. PS For Steve; some municipalities in NC have banned wood stoves (even with converters). Think they’re trying to reduce our hick aura, would make more sense to require the power companies to supply reliable power ben

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The epa claims it’s illegal for an epa stove to be banned. hmmmm….. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In this year’s big icestorm, there were a few million people without power > for several days here in North Carolina.  I want to be able to run my gas > heater, a couple of electric lights, and my soon to be gas regular or > on-demand water heater at a reasonable cost.  What have people done beyond > using generators to provide a minimal emergency electric supply for > several > days?  What would a designer consider for this type of situation? > Thanks, > David > The gas heaters ID plate should list it’s required wattage usage, including > blower. A gas water heater with a pilot light doesn’t need power, though > newer ones have pizeo-electric ignitors and do require a little wattage. Add > the wattage plus anything else you need/want to operate (fridge, etc) and > consider that to be 80% of the size you need (then go up one size generator. > PS For Steve; some municipalities in NC have banned wood stoves (even with > converters). Think they’re trying to reduce our hick aura, would make more > sense to require the power companies to supply reliable power > ben

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>If I were worried about such things, I’d be inclined to have a generator >that can run my fridge and gas powered furnace and water heater.  Getting >enough juice to run an electric water heater would be way to expensive to be >practical.  Besides, you can live w/o hot water for a few days.  I’d suggest >some sort of transfer switch with the generator outside.

I’d put a 12-15 kw 1800 rpm Diesel in its own little building, and a mains-type transfer switch. I did it and have never been sorry. A good diesel genny is costly, but you can live normally as long as you have fuel. Mine will run everything including the electric water heater….but as Bob said, running the water heater uses more diesel. Trouble is, in my case, I can’t have that gas heater flame in the building- I use flammable solvents. With my 16kw nominal unit, living normally (no wh) uses about 0.6 gal/hr, until we kick on the water heat and washer/dryer/diswasher, (not very smart) then consumption can run 2+ gal/hr. Little gennys with hondas and stuff run at 3600 rpm and beat themselves to death while gulping fuel under load at an astounding rate. They have little surge capacity for starting motors. I tried these first before putting in the diesel. I wish I could capture the waste heat from the genny and use it. The reason I don’t is noise. The only cure I have found for diesel noise is distance. YMMV, as my setup was built for convenience rather than efficiency, to keep a business on its feet when things get dicey..

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