Consumer Homes.

Question:

Does anybody know of any companies that currently offer fuel cells for home power use.  Thanks. Before you buy.

Response:

> Does anybody know of any companies that currently > offer fuel cells for home power use.  Thanks.

Are you talking "commercially-available product"? Something that runs on natural gas/propane/methanol? There are none. Before you buy.

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>Are you talking "commercially-available product"? >Something that runs on natural gas/propane/methanol? >There are none.

GE says they will have their Microgen unit available in a few months. http://www.gemicrogen.com/ Randy

Response:

: GE says they will have their Microgen unit available in a few months. : http://www.gemicrogen.com/ What will be cool will be fuel cell lapyop battery packs. Fill ‘er up with some Everclear(tm) booze (not the band) and it’ll run for hours on a tankful. Would be great for loud fuel-boomboxes, fuel-cell heated suits, etc. — FOOD FOR THOUGHT: 100 calories are used up in the course of a mile run. The USDA guidelines for dietary fibre is equal to one ounce of sawdust. The liver makes the vast majority of the cholesterol in your bloodstream.

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> GE says they will have their Microgen unit available in a few months. > http://www.gemicrogen.com/ > Randy

Plug, who builds the HomeGen7000, claims they will have 2nd generation prototypes in field test in a few months – and they still have not met GE’s specs, which got GE out from under a ‘take or pay’ commitment for 485 units.  They now say they won’t have ‘commercial’ product until ‘02 – a year later than they originally projected – and that’s if they survive all the shareholder lawsuits! (Share price is rapidly approaching the IPO price.) Before you buy.

Response:

>Plug, who builds the HomeGen7000, claims they will have 2nd >generation prototypes in field test in a few months – and >they still have not met GE’s specs, which got GE out from >under a ‘take or pay’ commitment for 485 units.  They now >say they won’t have ‘commercial’ product until ‘02 – a >year later than they originally projected – and that’s if >they survive all the shareholder lawsuits! (Share price is >rapidly approaching the IPO price.)

Maybe someone can enlighten me as to what the problem is with designing a fuel cell system. I’m serious. This isn’t something like fusion power where you need a quantum leap in physics which may or may not be there. Fuel cells have been around (on a custom and very expensive basis) for decades. So it would seem to me that it’s just a matter of building them and getting tolerances right, etc., and then mass producing. I could see where there might be efficiency issues and a question as to whether or not they were cost effective, but the actual production lines should be out there. So what’s the problem? Is there a contmaination headache that destroys the membranes which no one has been able to solve? Or something totally different? Even if the cost were, on an installed basis, twice or more that of a standby traditional generator, I can think of quite a few places that would prefer something stationary and quiet. disclaimer: I felt that fuel cells were finally approaching marketing and purchased some stock in one of the companies. fortunately I realized it was a bit speculative and I didn’t risk ahuge amount of money. But it seems more and more that this company, and maybe others, just don’t have any real product and are simply vaporware living on press releases. — Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

Response:

: Plug, who builds the HomeGen7000, claims they will have 2nd : generation prototypes in field test in a few months – and : they still have not met GE’s specs, which got GE out from : under a ‘take or pay’ commitment for 485 units.  They now : say they won’t have ‘commercial’ product until ‘02 – a : year later than they originally projected – and that’s if : they survive all the shareholder lawsuits! (Share price is : rapidly approaching the IPO price.) Sounds like the case of Linux and the geeks srill having to feed themselves.

Response:

Hi Danny, >Maybe someone can enlighten me as to what the problem is with designing a >fuel cell system…

I don’t know much about this, but I have the impression the hard part is the reformer, which also produces most of the heat. >…it seems more and more that this company, and maybe others, just don’t >have any real product and are simply vaporware living on press releases.

I got that impression of Global Thermoelectric in Calgary. Press releases saying they had just received a commitment from a major buyer, without mentioning who. Nick Nicholson L. Pine                      System design and consulting Pine Associates, Ltd.                           (610) 489-1475/0545 821 Collegeville Road                           Fax: (610) 489-7057 Computer simulation and modeling. High performance, low cost, solar heating and cogeneration system design. BSEE, MSEE. Senior Member, IEEE. Registered US Patent Agent. Web site: http://www.ece.vill.edu/~nick

Response:

writes: >Fuel cells have been around (on a custom and very expensive basis) for >decades. So it would seem to me that it’s just a matter of building them >and getting tolerances right, etc., and then mass producing.

A whole lot easier said then done.   Bob Peterson CM#1412 ANA#R-182415 WINS#1 World Internet Numismatic Society www.winsociety.org

Response:

: Fuel cells have been around (on a custom and very expensive basis) for : decades. So it would seem to me that it’s just a matter of building them : and getting tolerances right, etc., and then mass producing. One problem is size. So far, the 7 kilowatter is the size of a fridge. GE may have specified them too small. Also, fuel cells are scalable down to small sizes and of course smaller power. Oddly, this may be the problem. GE depends on electricity consumption for its profit. Apart from airconditioning in summer, no home I can think of really needs 7 kilowatts. 2 kilowatts should suffice, but there’s less profit per unit than for 7 kilowatters. It’s like how McDonald’s "super sized" the meals instead of plain lowering the fuckin’ price. A central A/C could be built as a natural gas turbine-driven unit. Oddly, microminiature fuel cells could work out, as the mass to energy ratio of battery packs is about the same size. I don’t know about anyone else, but if a 2 kilowatter was the size of a window A/C unit and was propane-driven, I’d pay a couple grand for it. (upon getting the money up at least) I certainly wouldn’t have to worry about blackouts! (: If the fuel cell machine made 12 or 24 volts DC, I would still buy it. After all, you can add inverters. What GE should shoot for is more the price than size reduction. A buck a watt wouldn’t be too bad. It may work out that you can never make a fuel cell as power to size effective as a car engine. But portable gadgets using batteries now have nowhere near the power to size ratio of a car engine. While there may never be a fuel cell car, the fridge size 7 kilowatter could be used in the home, and microminiature ones could be used in cell phones, laptops, and the like. — FOOD FOR THOUGHT: 100 calories are used up in the course of a mile run. The USDA guidelines for dietary fibre is equal to one ounce of sawdust. The liver makes the vast majority of the cholesterol in your bloodstream.

Response:

>Maybe someone can enlighten me as to what the problem is with designing a  … >Fuel cells have been around (on a custom and very expensive basis) for >decades. So it would seem to me that it’s just a matter of building them >and getting tolerances right, etc., and then mass producing.

That’s true.  The fuel cell itself is pretty easy.  The biggest problem is the fuel source.  You need almost 100% pure hydrogen, because any contaminants will "poison" the fuel cell and destroy it. So most of the work today is in creating a package that includes a fuel reformer that will take a hydrocarbon and output hydrogen for the fuel cell and CO2 to vent. >purchased some stock in one of the companies. fortunately I realized it >was a bit speculative and I didn’t risk ahuge amount of money. But it >seems more and more that this company, and maybe others, just don’t have >any real product and are simply vaporware living on press releases.

None of them have a retail product yet.  And probably won’t for at LEAST one year, probably two or three. PLUG is the worst off.  I’ve an unrealized loss there myself.  Haven’t sold it, I think at the current price it is pretty attractive.  And I can afford to lose the few hundred that my investment is now worth.  :( Ballard in canada (NASDAQ?:BLDP) is a bit better.  I have just a bit invested with them. My favorite is the IdaCorp subsidiary.  I have quite a bit invested there via their DRiP (doubled my money .  They have delivered prototypes on or ahead of schedule to the BPA.  They claim to be on schedule to deliver more prototypes per contract.  I’ve tried to get on the list to get one, but nothing yet.  http://www.idacorpinc.com/ There are others, but I haven’t invested in any of them. sdb — More guns means less crime.  ISBN:0-226-49363-6  *** Watch out for munged e-mail address. User should be sylvandb1 and host is at bigfoot.com Do NOT send me unsolicited commercial e-mail (UCE)!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Plug, who builds the HomeGen7000, claims they will have 2nd >generation prototypes in field test in a few months – and >they still have not met GE’s specs, which got GE out from >under a ‘take or pay’ commitment for 485 units.  They now >say they won’t have ‘commercial’ product until ‘02 – a >year later than they originally projected – and that’s if >they survive all the shareholder lawsuits! (Share price is >rapidly approaching the IPO price.) > Maybe someone can enlighten me as to what the problem is with designing a > fuel cell system. I’m serious. This isn’t something like fusion power > where you need a quantum leap in physics which may or may not be there. > Fuel cells have been around (on a custom and very expensive basis) for > decades.

Grove invented fuel cells over 150 years ago… >So it would seem to me that it’s just a matter of building them > and getting tolerances right, etc., and then mass producing.

The production lines are there (at a few companies), but cost reduction and reliability don’t come over night.  Hydrogen storage or creation is the other big issue. As others have said, reforming is a major systems challenge, but well-known technology.  It is a cost adder, but frees you from a hdyrogen infrastructure. > I could see where there might be efficiency issues and a question as to > whether or not they were cost effective, but the actual production lines > should be out there. > So what’s the problem? Is there a contmaination headache that destroys the > membranes which no one has been able to solve?

I could tell you, but then I’d have to kill you, :^) > Or something totally > different? Even if the cost were, on an installed basis, twice or more > that of a standby traditional generator, I can think of quite a few places > that would prefer something stationary and quiet. > disclaimer: I felt that fuel cells were finally approaching marketing and > purchased some stock in one of the companies. fortunately I realized it > was a bit speculative and I didn’t risk ahuge amount of money. But it > seems more and more that this company, and maybe others, just don’t have > any real product and are simply vaporware living on press releases.

Many are vaporware companies.  The real players stand out by the hardware in vehicles and stationary plants around the world. John Fisher Project Engineer XCELLSiS Corp. www.xcellsis.com "The Fuel Cell Engine Company" Poway, California –opinions expressed are mine and not necessarily those of my company–

Response:

>…Apart from airconditioning in summer, no home I can think of really >needs 7 kilowatts. 2 kilowatts should suffice…

Odd. A GE turbine guy told me that one serious problem with their 7 kW fuel cell was that an average home would need two of them. Sounded like he knew what he was talking about, some fraction of 200A x 220V = 44 kW peak power. Nick

Response:

: Odd. A GE turbine guy told me that one serious problem with their 7 kW : fuel cell was that an average home would need two of them. Sounded like There must be some major-league electricity gluttons out there. 220VAC 200A service is some serious power. — FOOD FOR THOUGHT: 100 calories are used up in the course of a mile run. The USDA guidelines for dietary fibre is equal to one ounce of sawdust. The liver makes the vast majority of the cholesterol in your bloodstream.

Response:

writes: >One problem is size. So far, the 7 kilowatter is the size of a fridge. GE may >have specified them too small. Also, fuel cells are scalable down to small >sizes and of course smaller power. Oddly, this may be the problem. GE depends >on electricity consumption for its profit. Apart from airconditioning in >summer, no home I can think of really needs 7 kilowatts. 2 kilowatts should >suffice, but there’s less profit per unit than for 7 kilowatters. It’s like >how McDonald’s "super sized" the meals instead of plain lowering the fuckin’ >price. A central A/C could be built as a natural gas turbine-driven unit.

2 kW ain’t very much juice.  At 120V its only 17 amps.  very few homes could live on 17 Amps maximum available current.  Granted, few homes use 2 kW on average, but you need the current when you need it.  I only use about 500 kw-h per month, an average of less then 1 kW.  But many times my instantaneous usage far exceeds that level. Even 7kW is pushing your luck.  Thats less then 60 amps.  Just running the washer, fridge, furnace, TV and lights at the same time would get you there. Bob Peterson CM#1412 ANA#R-182415 WINS#1 World Internet Numismatic Society www.winsociety.org

Response:

>: Fuel cells have been around (on a custom and very expensive basis) for >: decades. So it would seem to me that it’s just a matter of building them >: and getting tolerances right, etc., and then mass producing. >One problem is size. So far, the 7 kilowatter is the size of a fridge. GE may >have specified them too small. Also, fuel cells are scalable down to small >sizes and of course smaller power. Oddly, this may be the problem. GE depends >on electricity consumption for its profit. Apart from airconditioning in >summer, no home I can think of really needs 7 kilowatts.

10 kw or so (neglecting central air conditioning) would be a decent size, particularly if modularly stackable, for everything from small apartment buildings/condos/coops and office complexes on up. There’s a _big_ market if these would be available. — Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

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>…Apart from airconditioning in summer, no home I can think of really >needs 7 kilowatts. 2 kilowatts should suffice… > Odd. A GE turbine guy told me that one serious problem with their 7 kW > fuel cell was that an average home would need two of them. Sounded like > he knew what he was talking about, some fraction of 200A x 220V = 44 kW > peak power. > Nick

Nick, This number is really huge.  Check it.  Most homes use something less than 5 kW peak.  This is the equivalent of about seven or eight 1 hp motors simultaneously. Besides, unless you are talking about going off the grid completely (c’mon, how many average families really need that?)  a grid interconnected fuel cell operating on at a constant output of about 2 kW would spin the meter backwards on average enough to make up for the peaks.  Less power gen would be required at the gas and oil fired plants, less new ones need to be built. — John Fisher Project Engineer XCELLSiS Corp. "The Fuel Cell Engine Company" –opinions expressed are mine alone–

Response:

>Maybe someone can enlighten me as to what the problem is with designing a >  … >Fuel cells have been around (on a custom and very expensive basis) for >decades. So it would seem to me that it’s just a matter of building them >and getting tolerances right, etc., and then mass producing. > That’s true.  The fuel cell itself is pretty easy.  The biggest problem > is the fuel source.  You need almost 100% pure hydrogen, because any > contaminants will "poison" the fuel cell and destroy it.

Everything else you said is right on.  This is wrong.   For PEM fuel cells, the percentage of hydrogen is nearly irrelevant as long as the dilutants are not fuel cell poisons.  In reforming reactions, CO and CO2 are created.  The CO2 is a dilutant, the CO is a temporary fuel cell poison (it takes up space on the catalyst surface that could normally be occupied by hydrogen).  The permanent destructive poisons are much easier to avoid, sulphur and chlorine compounds.  Just dont use feed stocks containing these (such as hard to reform compounds and mixtures like commercially available diesel and gasoline). You may be thinking of Alkaline fuel cells when you quote the purity number of 100%.  These cells really do require pure hydrogen and oxygen.  No problem on the space shuttle, where there are LH2 and LO2 tanks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So most of the work today is in creating a package that includes a fuel > reformer that will take a hydrocarbon and output hydrogen for the fuel > cell and CO2 to vent. >purchased some stock in one of the companies. fortunately I realized it >was a bit speculative and I didn’t risk ahuge amount of money. But it >seems more and more that this company, and maybe others, just don’t have >any real product and are simply vaporware living on press releases. > None of them have a retail product yet.  And probably won’t for at LEAST > one year, probably two or three. > PLUG is the worst off.  I’ve an unrealized loss there myself.  Haven’t > sold it, I think at the current price it is pretty attractive.  And I > can afford to lose the few hundred that my investment is now worth.  :( > Ballard in canada (NASDAQ?:BLDP) is a bit better.  I have just a bit > invested with them. > My favorite is the IdaCorp subsidiary.  I have quite a bit invested > there via their DRiP (doubled my money .  They have delivered > prototypes on or ahead of schedule to the BPA.  They claim to be on > schedule to deliver more prototypes per contract.  I’ve tried to get on > the list to get one, but nothing yet.  http://www.idacorpinc.com/ > There are others, but I haven’t invested in any of them. > sdb

I too have lost some money down the Plug hole.  Oh well.  I would suggest a few other potential sinkholes, but I could probably get sued. — John Fisher Project Engineer XCELLSiS Corp. "The Fuel Cell Engine Company" –opinions expressed are mine alone–

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> Maybe someone can enlighten me as to what the problem is with > designing a fuel cell system.

<snip> OK – let’s say you’re a fuel cell mfr. who has a product with demonstrated durability and reliability (not fiction – fact – been done).  But it’s too expensive for anyone to get a decent payback through the avoided cost of grid electricity or the fuel costs you avoid by using waste heat.  So you say, I’ll just make mass quantities of these things to drive the cost down. No problem – you just invest $millions in automated production equipment, fill the shelves and wait for the orders to pour in. (Hmmm – seems like I need to raise the price to pay off all this plant investment!)  But no, you cut the price to generate sales and take massive losses for just a few years until you start to turn a profit. (Geez, what if no one wants to be first on the block!?)  And just how high is your ‘risk tolerance’ today??? Not just an imagined scenario – REAL world experience.  Welcome to the fuel cell Catch-22. (See http://messages.yahoo.com/?action=q&board=PLUG and sample the IQ of your average Plug investor.) Before you buy.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > …Apart from airconditioning in summer, no home > > I can think of really needs 7 kilowatts. 2 kilowatts > > should suffice… > Odd. A GE turbine guy told me that one serious > problem with their 7 kW fuel cell was that an > average home would need two of them. Sounded like > he knew what he was talking about, some fraction > of 200A x 220V = 44 kW > peak power. > This number is really huge.  Check it.  Most homes > use something less than 5 kW peak.  This is the > equivalent of about seven or eight 1 hp motors > simultaneously.

These fuel cell units use natural and LPG gas. For hot water and central heating is best to go direct and use gas furnaces/boilers. That will be more efficient especially if condensing or no-flame versions are used. Apart from A/C and the fridge (that’s if it is a big one) what other big electric users are there in a home?  I can only think of a tumble dryer and gas versions of these are available (well in the UK they are). Dishwashers/washing machines can be low energy and hot fill only for the dishwasher. I think the GE man was on about an all electric house.  7 kW is a bit heavy if you make sure all your heavy kW users are on gas. Even off the grid LPG gas can supply your needs.  A right sized CHP generator is probably all you need for lights etc (even the A/C can be run on gas; absorption) until something more cost effective comes along like a Stirling unit or whatever.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Plug, who builds the HomeGen7000, claims they will have 2nd > >generation prototypes in field test in a few months – and > >they still have not met GE’s specs, which got GE out from > >under a ‘take or pay’ commitment for 485 units.  They now > >say they won’t have ‘commercial’ product until ‘02 – a > >year later than they originally projected – and that’s if > >they survive all the shareholder lawsuits! (Share price is > >rapidly approaching the IPO price.) > Maybe someone can enlighten me as to what the problem is with designing a > fuel cell system. I’m serious. This isn’t something like fusion power > where you need a quantum leap in physics which may or may not be there. > Fuel cells have been around (on a custom and very expensive basis) for > decades. > Grove invented fuel cells over 150 years ago…

Invented by Sir William Robert Grove in 1839, it was thought too inefficient for practical use. It was improved gradually being eventually taken up by NASA for the space programme; being used in a 1965 Gemini spacecraft.  The Space Shuttle uses a fuel cell. The recent advancements in fuel cell technology have been prompted by pressures to replace the inefficient high polluting internal combustion engine used in cars.

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>> > …A GE turbine guy told me that one serious > > problem with their 7 kW fuel cell was that an > > average home would need two of them. Sounded like > > he knew what he was talking about, some fraction > > of 200A x 220V = 44 kW peak power. >These fuel cell units use natural and LPG gas. For hot water and central >heating is best to go direct and use gas furnaces/boilers. That will be more >efficient especially if condensing or no-flame versions are used.

Have you considered using the hot water output of the GE fuel cell? >I think the GE man was on about an all electric house.  7 kW is a bit heavy >if you make sure all your heavy kW users are on gas.

A 693 watt grid-connected fuel cell would zero my 300 kWh/mo electric bill. Nick

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > …A GE turbine guy told me that one serious >> > problem with their 7 kW fuel cell was that an >> > average home would need two of them. Sounded like >> > he knew what he was talking about, some fraction >> > of 200A x 220V = 44 kW peak power. > These fuel cell units use natural and LPG gas. For > hot water and central heating is best to go direct > and use gas furnaces/boilers. That will be more > efficient especially if condensing or no-flame versions > are used. > Have you considered using the hot water > output of the GE fuel cell?

Yes and I have read their web site. It is best to use gas direct, using high-efficient appliances, instead of another energy conversion. As I said, keep all appliances gas that can be gas: heating space and water, cooking, fridge, etc and then use low energy electric appliances and ones that can use hot water heated via gas. If off-the-grid because you are in the sticks, a small, or two one run one standby, LPG generator can supply all the power you need, and also you can take the heat they produce to assist in heating your hot water – may need a largish thermal store to gain most benefit. These domestic fuel cells are not cheap and have only a 15 year life span. It is worth keeping on the grid, however keeping electricity consumption to a bare minimum by using gas wherever possible must be far more cost effective. Got no figures, but assume to be far cheaper in the end in running costs, and most certainly over 15 years lifespan of the fuel cell too. > I think the GE man was on about an all electric house. > 7 kW is a bit heavy if you make sure all your heavy > kW users are on gas. > A 693 watt grid-connected fuel cell would zero my > 300 kWh/mo electric bill.

And I’m sure you can do better than that too.

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> Have you considered using the hot water output of the GE fuel cell?

Plug is not planning to incorporate waste heat recovery into the HomeGen7000 until they demonstrate it can at least make electricity. > A 693 watt grid-connected fuel cell would zero my 300 kWh/mo electric bill.

Don’t hold your breath waiting for them to approve fuel cells for net-metering.  So far only PV systems get this privilege because they help the utility when they need it most.  The electric guys will fight net-metered fuel cells ’til pigs fly! Before you buy.

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: 2 kW ain’t very much juice.  At 120V its only 17 amps.  very few homes could : live on 17 Amps maximum available current.  Granted, few homes use 2 kW on For an absolute max rating you’re right. But how much is used _normally_? A lot less than the absolute max rating of a home’s system. (barring major-league mad scientists) Typically, two items are the major power drains, heaters and motors. When neither is in use, the power drain of a home isn’t all that great. Cut on a heater or two, and sure as shit, 2 kilowatts is not enough. Cut on the A/C, and you get the same problem. — FOOD FOR THOUGHT: 100 calories are used up in the course of a mile run. The USDA guidelines for dietary fibre is equal to one ounce of sawdust. The liver makes the vast majority of the cholesterol in your bloodstream.

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