Consumer Homes.

Question:

Hi, I’ve just started reading the group to research a project I was considering, and was hoping someone here would be able to offer me some advice.  I certainly haven’t seen much solar activity here in San Francisco.  I spoke to some solar providers at the Green Festival last month and none seem to have had more than a dozen jobs here, apparently due to the fog and/or the roof shapes/orientation? Anyway, I’ve noticed many days where solar heating would work great (warm south-facing front, cold back) and wanted to try and store the sun’s heat to warm the rest of the house. The house was built in 1890 and is a stick victorian, three stories tall, about 3500 sq ft, lots of 8 ft tall windows, hardwood floors, currently with two furnaces.  The roof is flat and gets full sun (25 ft by 75 ft).  The floors are connected via stairs, and the bottom has the garage and more living space (about 600 sq ft). The project I’m considering involves replacing the existing foundation anyway, along with most of the poured cement due to it’s age and condition.  I’d like to put a radiant floor in the bottom floor (even in the garage) and at the same time, with the bottom ceiling being redone anyway, run the water tubes underneath the floor of the first level.  I have plenty of space for a big storage tank in the back yard or garage.  I’m thinking the top level probably wouldn’t need much heating and can use the existing furnace if it was needed.  I wanted to use solar as primary with a high-efficiency gas water heater as the backup for the radiant flooring. The bottom floor would then be a radiant cement slab of about 1500 sq ft, along with the radiant tubing running under about another 1500 sq ft of wood flooring on the first floor. Any pointers, even hypothetical ones, on such a project would be great.

Response:

>…I’ve noticed many days where solar heating would work great (warm >south-facing front, cold back) and wanted to try and store the sun’s >heat to warm the rest of the house.

How would you collect the heat? >The house was built in 1890 and is a stick victorian, three stories >tall, about 3500 sq ft, lots of 8 ft tall windows, hardwood floors, >currently with two furnaces.

Sounds like it has lots of air leaks and little insulation. And it’s probably "cute," so you won’t want to modify the facade. You might gut the inside, insulate, airseal, and make an internal sunspace… >The roof is flat and gets full sun (25 ft by 75 ft).

…75′ EW? January’s the worst-case month for solar house heating in SF, when 1050 Btu/ft^2 falls on a south wall on an average 48.7 F day with a 55.6 average daily max. >…I’d like to put a radiant floor in the bottom floor… I have plenty >of space for a big storage tank in the back yard or garage… I wanted >to use solar as primary with a high-efficiency gas water heater as the >backup for the radiant flooring.

Solar heating can work fine in SF, but this sounds like trying to bail a bottomless boat. You might sell the house and start from scratch, or build a solar penthouse from scratch and live up there. Nick

Response:

> >…I’ve noticed many days where solar heating would work great (warm >south-facing front, cold back) and wanted to try and store the sun’s >heat to warm the rest of the house. > How would you collect the heat?

Thanks for responding. I was thinking of using solar panels, either the flat panel or evacuated tubes, but this is the least of my issues at this point! Finding an architect and engineer that knows something of the area seems primary. >The house was built in 1890 and is a stick victorian, three stories >tall, about 3500 sq ft, lots of 8 ft tall windows, hardwood floors, >currently with two furnaces. > Sounds like it has lots of air leaks and little insulation. And it’s > probably "cute," so you won’t want to modify the facade. You might > gut the inside, insulate, airseal, and make an internal sunspace…

The ceiling is insulated and the leaks have been addressed.  The windows are just really big, and I was hoping to get some info on the percentage difference between the single-pane windows and good double-pane to see whether I should replace them all.  The walls butt against the houses against me.  I already have plenty of sun in the front of the house and a sky light. >The roof is flat and gets full sun (25 ft by 75 ft). > …75′ EW? January’s the worst-case month for solar house heating in SF, > when 1050 Btu/ft^2 falls on a south wall on an average 48.7 F day with > a 55.6 average daily max.

NS.  The front faces south.   In SF, the stick victorians are built narrow and long.  The coldest month "seems" to be June, when the fog comes in over most of the city.  January is cold but sunny. >…I’d like to put a radiant floor in the bottom floor… I have plenty >of space for a big storage tank in the back yard or garage… I wanted >to use solar as primary with a high-efficiency gas water heater as the >backup for the radiant flooring. > Solar heating can work fine in SF, but this sounds like trying to bail > a bottomless boat. You might sell the house and start from scratch, or > build a solar penthouse from scratch and live up there.

Hope not.  Thanks for the input, maybe I’ll try over at alt.architecture to see if anyone has actually seen such a project work… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Nick

Response:

Question:

Thanks for the info. The contractors that I have talked to so far already know that I am not hiring them to do finish work, so whoever I hire may give me a few leads for sources. rudy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> no1 – > I have been trying to research some ‘wholesale’ type outlets, even if they > are 100 miles away from me. I am kind of out in the middle of nowhere, so > there’s not a whole lot of competition. How did you find out that the > Daltile warehouse would sell to you, for example? I know that Daltile has > some showrooms within a couple of hours driving distance, and I think a > warehouse, also. Do you think they have the same arrangement at all of their > warehouses? > I have also tracked down a few wood flooring fabricators- many of them sell > over the Net, but with very high freight costs.  I hope to be able to > eliminate that by picking the flooring up. > Thanks > rudy >  The way I found to do it was to get to know some of the contractors, > and find out where they get their supplies. Don’t know if this is a > regional thing or not with Dal. > Many wholesalers have restrictions; i.e. no returns of leftover > material etc. Make sure you know exactly what you want, and quantity. > For wood flooring (was looking for Bruce D4 oak strip), I got a quote > from a large scale distributor (that also dealt with the public), took > it to HD, got them to drop their price to 10% less than that of the > quote (store policy), and then opened an HD charge card, for another > 10% (they have since limited the total savings on the charge card to a > fairly low limit ), and then bought 177 bundles of flooring. Price > came out to about $29/bundle ($1.52 per ft^2), about half the normal > store price. > As an aside, big-box stores can afford to have a policy like this, as > less than 5% of the population takes advantage of it, and most of > those that do tend to do so, at other times, spend large sums in their > stores anyway…

Response:

no1 – I have been trying to research some ‘wholesale’ type outlets, even if they are 100 miles away from me. I am kind of out in the middle of nowhere, so there’s not a whole lot of competition. How did you find out that the Daltile warehouse would sell to you, for example? I know that Daltile has some showrooms within a couple of hours driving distance, and I think a warehouse, also. Do you think they have the same arrangement at all of their warehouses? I have also tracked down a few wood flooring fabricators- many of them sell over the Net, but with very high freight costs.  I hope to be able to eliminate that by picking the flooring up. Thanks rudy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Basic standard-grade wall tiles should run about $1/square foot. For > > $5/foot you can buy granite or marble. > Not in Boston, where I live. Believe me, I’ve looked ad nauseum. But > you’re right, I can find basic tiles for $1.00 square foot. Not very > attractive ones, but I’m sure they’d work. >   .. Joann > Hmm… > I too live close to Boston (within 35 miles), and as an avid > do-it-yourselfer,  buy a fair amount of construction materials. The > trick is to never buy retail: 1). determine exactly what you want in > terms of style, 2). identify the manufacturer(s), and 3). research and > locate the local suppliers of the materials 4). buy your supplies > where the contractors do. For example, there is a wholesale tile > supply house in Derry, NH on route 28. Dal-tile has a wholesale > warehouse in Londonderry. Both these places sell to the general public > (though you need to know exactly what you want). > In my last house, I got lumber (oak flooring, trim, crown molding etc) > at such good prices that the local finish carpenters wanted to buy > from me > A little bit of research will provide huge savings. > Previously, I went to  the high-end specialty stores to determine > steps #1 and #2 above. There is sufficient information on the internet > now that all but step #4 (and even that, in some cases) can be done > without leaving home…

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > no1 – > I have been trying to research some ‘wholesale’ type outlets, even if they > are 100 miles away from me. I am kind of out in the middle of nowhere, so > there’s not a whole lot of competition. How did you find out that the > Daltile warehouse would sell to you, for example? I know that Daltile has > some showrooms within a couple of hours driving distance, and I think a > warehouse, also. Do you think they have the same arrangement at all of their > warehouses? > I have also tracked down a few wood flooring fabricators- many of them sell > over the Net, but with very high freight costs.  I hope to be able to > eliminate that by picking the flooring up. > Thanks > rudy

 The way I found to do it was to get to know some of the contractors, and find out where they get their supplies. Don’t know if this is a regional thing or not with Dal. Many wholesalers have restrictions; i.e. no returns of leftover material etc. Make sure you know exactly what you want, and quantity. For wood flooring (was looking for Bruce D4 oak strip), I got a quote from a large scale distributor (that also dealt with the public), took it to HD, got them to drop their price to 10% less than that of the quote (store policy), and then opened an HD charge card, for another 10% (they have since limited the total savings on the charge card to a fairly low limit ), and then bought 177 bundles of flooring. Price came out to about $29/bundle ($1.52 per ft^2), about half the normal store price. As an aside, big-box stores can afford to have a policy like this, as less than 5% of the population takes advantage of it, and most of those that do tend to do so, at other times, spend large sums in their stores anyway…

Response:

I am looking to remodel my bathroom.  Where can I find cheap bathroom wall tiles? Shelly

Response:

> I am looking to remodel my bathroom.  Where can I find cheap bathroom wall > tiles?

What’s cheap? What style of tiles? What size? Look in your local phone book under tiles. Just about every store that sells tiles has many choices in the range that hovers around $5.00 per square foot. You might also look in your local trading paper. These are the things where people list all sorts of stuff for sale. I see significant amounts of tile in there all the time.   .. Joann

Response:

Check a local tile store and asked about "odd lot" tiles. These are tiles which aren’t close to the right color, but if matching other lots isn’t a requirement for you (you can tile your entire bathroom from just this one odd lot), then you can save a LOT of money. I don’t mean they are a weird color or something, just that they might not be the right shade of, for example, blue.  However, you might find this shade of blue perfectly acceptable. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I am looking to remodel my bathroom.  Where can I find cheap bathroom wall > tiles?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am looking to remodel my bathroom.  Where can I find cheap bathroom wall > tiles? > What’s cheap? What style of tiles? What size? > Look in your local phone book under tiles. Just about every store that > sells tiles has many choices in the range that hovers around $5.00 per > square foot. > You might also look in your local trading paper. These are the things > where people list all sorts of stuff for sale. I see significant amounts > of tile in there all the time. >   .. Joann

Basic standard-grade wall tiles should run about $1/square foot. For $5/foot you can buy granite or marble.

Response:

> Basic standard-grade wall tiles should run about $1/square foot. For > $5/foot you can buy granite or marble.

Not in Boston, where I live. Believe me, I’ve looked ad nauseum. But you’re right, I can find basic tiles for $1.00 square foot. Not very attractive ones, but I’m sure they’d work.   .. Joann

Response:

> > Basic standard-grade wall tiles should run about $1/square foot. For > $5/foot you can buy granite or marble. > Not in Boston, where I live. Believe me, I’ve looked ad nauseum. But > you’re right, I can find basic tiles for $1.00 square foot. Not very > attractive ones, but I’m sure they’d work. >   .. Joann

Hmm… I too live close to Boston (within 35 miles), and as an avid do-it-yourselfer,  buy a fair amount of construction materials. The trick is to never buy retail: 1). determine exactly what you want in terms of style, 2). identify the manufacturer(s), and 3). research and locate the local suppliers of the materials 4). buy your supplies where the contractors do. For example, there is a wholesale tile supply house in Derry, NH on route 28. Dal-tile has a wholesale warehouse in Londonderry. Both these places sell to the general public (though you need to know exactly what you want). In my last house, I got lumber (oak flooring, trim, crown molding etc) at such good prices that the local finish carpenters wanted to buy from me A little bit of research will provide huge savings. Previously, I went to  the high-end specialty stores to determine steps #1 and #2 above. There is sufficient information on the internet now that all but step #4 (and even that, in some cases) can be done without leaving home…

Response:

The tiles that look like hell in a box, many times look fine when installed. Kind of like a lot of men’s ties.  On the rack they look like hell, but when displayed properly with a fine suit and shirt, presto, they look great. Another idea is to buy discontinued tiles and a mixture of them and install them mixed/matched in no particular sequence.  I’ve done it with tiles leftover from certain jobs and had wonderful results. — C h a r l e s   H e s t e r General Contractor/Homebuilding Consultant Hester Homes/Build a Little, Inc. www.build-a-little.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Basic standard-grade wall tiles should run about $1/square foot. For > $5/foot you can buy granite or marble. > Not in Boston, where I live. Believe me, I’ve looked ad nauseum. But > you’re right, I can find basic tiles for $1.00 square foot. Not very > attractive ones, but I’m sure they’d work. >   .. Joann

Response:

Question:

I am preparing to install a hydronic floor heating system in an upstairs bedroom and would like to use a lightweight concrete to embed the tubing in. Can someone suggest a lightweight, readily available aggregate to mix in with the concrete that will give good heat transfer? And what should the mixing proportions be? I have heard of vermiculite or pearlite being used in lightweight concrete but I do not know how well these materials transfer heat.

Response:

> I am preparing to install a hydronic floor heating system in an > upstairs bedroom and would like to use a lightweight concrete to embed > the tubing in. Can someone suggest a lightweight, readily available > aggregate to mix in with the concrete that will give good heat > transfer? And what should the mixing proportions be? I have heard of > vermiculite or pearlite being used in lightweight concrete but I do > not know how well these materials transfer heat.

What you have to worry about is the strength of the floor and structure you are going to put the concrete on….i would check with a licensed and INSURED building engineer. its gonna cost you, but then you know you

Response:

Since Both materials are frequently added to concrete to increase their insulating qualities, my guess would be: Not well. (see: http://www.schundler.com/vermcon.htm) the website at http://www.radiantcompany.com/details/joists.shtml shows a floor-joist installation that doesn’t appear to use concrete at all, just pins the tubing to the underside of the decking with what looks like flashing, but might be specially reflective. It also shows in a separate space, a "suspended slab" setup, where the tubing is just embedded in sand.  I conclude from this that there’s no reason not to use a sand-depth that’s barely adequate to cover the tubing, as long as you have some other floor decking over the top… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am preparing to install a hydronic floor heating system in an > upstairs bedroom and would like to use a lightweight concrete to embed > the tubing in. Can someone suggest a lightweight, readily available > aggregate to mix in with the concrete that will give good heat > transfer? And what should the mixing proportions be? I have heard of > vermiculite or pearlite being used in lightweight concrete but I do > not know how well these materials transfer heat.

Response:

>What you have to worry about is the strength of the floor and structure >you are going to put the concrete on….

I guess that’s why he wants LIGHTWEIGHT concrete. -v.

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I don’t know how helpful this will be, but here goes… A few years ago, when I was appraising machinery for a living, I looked at a cellular concrete generator.  Cellular concrete uses "air" as an aggregate.  Think of it as air-entrained concrete, taken to the extreme. The equipment generates a foam that looks a lot like shaving cream and injects it into a slurry of wet mortar, no sand added.  They use it for concrete roofs, so it must be very light.  As another poster has said, you probably can’t count on great heat x-fer. I have also seen a product in some trade rag that is polyisocyanurate board, with a foil back and groves for tubing.  To me, that would be the way to go with your project. Of course, I have no leads on where to look for either of these products, but that’s why we have Google. JK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I am preparing to install a hydronic floor heating system in an > upstairs bedroom and would like to use a lightweight concrete to embed > the tubing in. Can someone suggest a lightweight, readily available > aggregate to mix in with the concrete that will give good heat > transfer? And what should the mixing proportions be? I have heard of > vermiculite or pearlite being used in lightweight concrete but I do > not know how well these materials transfer heat.

Response:

> I am preparing to install a hydronic floor heating system in an > upstairs bedroom and would like to use a lightweight concrete to embed > the tubing in. Can someone suggest a lightweight, readily available > aggregate to mix in with the concrete that will give good heat > transfer? And what should the mixing proportions be? I have heard of > vermiculite or pearlite being used in lightweight concrete but I do > not know how well these materials transfer heat.

Vermiculite and styrofoam are insulators, and would slow down the heat transfer. Whether or not this would be critical to your installation depends on the heat load, and desired surface finish.         We use expanded shale as a lightweight aggregate. This brings the weight per square foot to 15#, rather than 18# with standard concrete, for a ‘typical’ 1 1/2" overpour. ‘Typical’ being 5/8" tubing (3/4" O.D.) with an equal thickness over the tubing. If the concrete cracks and moves away from the tubing, the heat transfer will be reduced, thus the recommendation of twice the tubing depth. Fibermesh is a good idea as well.         If wood flooring will be used, sleepers laid between the tubing as nailers will reduce the amount of concrete, and thus the weight.         What this means is that your joists should be engineered for a 60 psf live load, leaving you the required 40# after the overpour. If your bedroom was framed for this, great, if not, you would be loading the floor beyond what code calls for, i.e adding 15psf would give you a 25psf live load.         Using smaller tubing, say 1/2" or even 3/8" would reduce the thickness of cementitous material required. It would also reduce the heat output potential of the panel. Depending on the heat load, this may be an option.         As another poster has suggested, the use of aluminum heat transfer plates, set between sleepers, may be the best option. If there is to be carpet over the floor, I’d suggest using double grooved plates, with the tubing centers at 8". With hardwood, you could drop back to single grooves, at 1′ O.C.         If the ceiling below needs replacement, you could always install this system from below, and avoid the changing of floor heights involved with overpouring.

Response:

Question:

There’s a couple of items you can use depending on the amount the object is moved. For the more or less stationary objects where the feet don’t show, you can use rubber crutch feet. These work on upholstered couches, etc. For something like a highboy, you could use the adhesive pieces of felt since you don’t want to nail anything into the bottom of a queen anne or ball and claw foot. Or you can use the plastic or rubber cups that the feet sit into but this may not look so good. For dining room chairs which move around a lot, I found that the nail on teflon-embedded plastic feet work the best. Don’t get the self adhesive ones since they tend to come off after a few months. -al sung Rapid Realm Technology, Inc. Hopkinton, MA

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> New hardwood will be installed next month: > but we are undecided how to guard against > future marking by furniture, mainly: > — heavy things on extended bases, e.g. a highboy > — things moved in use e.g. dining room chairs > — metal legs of heavy glass coffee table > — wood feet of couch, tub chairs etc. > Experienced advice would be welcomed with thanks. > Donald Phillipson > Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > 613 822 0734

Response:

For the larger feet, I cut pieces of the carpet we removed, and put it pile side down.  For the smaller ones, stick-on felt pads are OK, although they do shift around on little skinny round chair feet. Wendy W. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > There’s a couple of items you can use depending on the amount the object is > moved. For the more or less stationary objects where the feet don’t show, > you can use rubber crutch feet. These work on upholstered couches, etc. > For something like a highboy, you could use the adhesive pieces of felt > since you don’t want to nail anything into the bottom of a queen anne or > ball and claw foot. Or you can use the plastic or rubber cups that the feet > sit into but this may not look so good. > For dining room chairs which move around a lot, I found that the nail on > teflon-embedded plastic feet work the best. Don’t get the self adhesive ones > since they tend to come off after a few months. > -al sung > Rapid Realm Technology, Inc. > Hopkinton, MA > New hardwood will be installed next month: > but we are undecided how to guard against > future marking by furniture, mainly: > — heavy things on extended bases, e.g. a highboy > — things moved in use e.g. dining room chairs > — metal legs of heavy glass coffee table > — wood feet of couch, tub chairs etc. > Experienced advice would be welcomed with thanks. > Donald Phillipson > Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > 613 822 0734

Response:

You have gotten some pretty good advice from the others. I’ll add my 2 cents by saying that you have to really stand over and watch anybody moving a piece of furniture with repeated yelling "Watch these hardwood floors. DO NOT scratch the floor." It takes a lot of repetition as movers, refrigerator men and children just don’t get it the first time. Dust is the biggest enemy as it acts like fine sandpaper. The new swifter thing works really well. My 2 cents, Sterling

Response:

not to sound like a jerk or anything, but have you considered laminate flooring? *nothing* you do will prevent your wood flooring from getting scratched up within six months. i installed wilsonart laminate maple finished flooring. looks 100% like wood, and is almost impossible to damage.  i drag heavy furniture around all the time (wife keeps redecorating), with zero scratches. the trick is to stick with wilsonart or formica.  avoid pergo, which looks fake. just a thought. > New hardwood will be installed next month: > but we are undecided how to guard against > future marking by furniture, mainly: > — heavy things on extended bases, e.g. a highboy > — things moved in use e.g. dining room chairs > — metal legs of heavy glass coffee table > — wood feet of couch, tub chairs etc. > Experienced advice would be welcomed with thanks. > Donald Phillipson > Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > 613 822 0734

–

Response:

New hardwood will be installed next month: but we are undecided how to guard against future marking by furniture, mainly: — heavy things on extended bases, e.g. a highboy — things moved in use e.g. dining room chairs — metal legs of heavy glass coffee table — wood feet of couch, tub chairs etc. Experienced advice would be welcomed with thanks. Donald Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) 613 822 0734

Response:

Get some stick-on felt from the hardware store.  You can get packages of circular felt pads, square, or just sheets of the stuff.  I got the sheets and cut it to fit all my furniture legs. This is very, very important, especially for dining room chairs that constantly scrape back & forth on the floor.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > New hardwood will be installed next month: > but we are undecided how to guard against > future marking by furniture, mainly: > — heavy things on extended bases, e.g. a highboy > — things moved in use e.g. dining room chairs > — metal legs of heavy glass coffee table > — wood feet of couch, tub chairs etc. > Experienced advice would be welcomed with thanks.

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Question:

The real answer is to divide the footprint of the house into rectangles and triangles.  Then calculate the area of each part and add them to get the total.  The area of a triangle is 1/2 of the base times the height.  The area of a rectangle is the base times the height.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> All I asked was a simple question. I didn’t insult anyone nor did I make > accusations. I don’t care what you intelligence level is. I do wish someone > would give me the formula for computing square feet. Unlike most of the > people on the net, I’m not a newbie. I have been around awhile, which > explains why I don’t remember the formula for square feet on a shape with > odd sizes. I’m not in 7th grade and honestly don’t remember what the formula > is. If you do, please share it with me. If not, you are not the person the > question was directed to. > Just looking for a helping hand, > Dak

Response:

Really wanna know? Compute the vertex coordinates of each corner of the house.  Unless there is an odd angle, this is easy to do.  If there is an odd angle, the delta y and delta x are computed by applying the cosine and sine of the departure angle to the hypoteneuse to generate the opposite and adjacent distances.. Arrange the coordinates in a list, like so: y                         x 100                 100 110                 105 110                 120 118                 120 etc. and add the first coordinate AGAIN to the end of the list.  Then, "cross multiply" by multiplying the first y value by the second x, add this to the product of the second y by the third x, added to the product the third x by the fourth y and finally to the product of the last y by the first x.  You now have a value representing the summation of all the y numbers multiplied by the x.  Save this. Now, start with the first x and multiply by the second y.  Add this to the second x multiplied by the third y, keep on multiplying and adding until you have multiplied the last x by the first y.   Subtract the second summation from the first, divide by two, and you have the area contained in any polygon with any number of sides. For most people, computing the coordinates of the vertex is the tough part, and does depend on knowledge of very basic high school trig. Yes, I am a professional Land Surveyor and this is how we do it, although it has been computerized for the last thirty years and it’s been that long since I did one by hand.  But this is the way it’s done. Another method is via Double Meridian Distances, but don’t even ask about that one. Jim

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Are you sure it’s 7 sides . I think your pulling our chain with a diagonal wall. Traditional homes have even # of external walls. Regardless, the geometry you talk about cannot be a simple box geometry because of the 7th wall. Probably better to use some ASCII drawing to convey the real layout. –Chad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >How do you figure the sq. ft. of a house seven sides? >Ex. 10×15x15×20x20×10x8 >(Not true measurements) >Thanks, >Dak

Response:

geometry for getting the square footage of anything. Measure the area as a square or rectangle. Don’t worry about those little alcoves and closets. If the area is 10 feet X 15 feet, you have 150 square feet. Nor look at the small areas that wern’t covered by your square foot measurment and add them. It’s that easy. I don’t care if you’re working with carpet, wood flooring, or tile, add a couple square feet to cover waste and you’ll be just fine Larry

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I rest my case.  A "simple formula" that its author >cannot remember is not really a simple formula. >Are you really such an ass or do you just play one on TV?  Yes, it’s a >simple formula.  No, I am NOT the author of the formula.  No, I don’t >remember it exactly.  So freakin’ sue me.  I’m telling the OP that >there is a solution to the problem if he’s willing to do a bit of >research, but I’m not going to research it for him.  So what’s *your* >problem? >Were you under the impression that your post added something to this >thread?

Seems to me it added at least as much as yours did. <plonk> * 2 — alphageek/at/milmac/dot/com Stop Partial-birth Abortion NOW! Ted Kennedy’s car has killed more people than my gun.

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>>I rest my case.  A "simple formula" that its author >cannot remember is not really a simple formula. >Are you really such an ass or do you just play one on TV?  Yes, it’s a >simple formula.  

Gawd, you’re a prickly prick!  The problem with your simple formula is that you (as you stated) need to know the coordinates of the vertices. If he knew that, he could have had the house calculated the old fashioned primitive way, long ago.  It might be more trouble to calc the coordinates so as to be able to use the simple formula, than to section it off into rectangles and triangles and do it in numerous (easy) steps. -v.

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Just wanted to thank everyone that actually tried to HELP me. I do appreciate your time. Thanks, Dak

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How do you figure the sq. ft. of a house seven sides? Ex. 10×15x15×20x20×10x8 (Not true measurements) Thanks, Dak

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> How do you figure the sq. ft. of a house seven sides? > Ex. 10×15x15×20x20×10x8 > (Not true measurements) > Thanks, > Dak

I would make a measurement of the length by the width like a square or rectange, larger then the house, if you have an odd sided house and then just take away the parts that are not the house, might get a 7 or 8 th grade math book, had one laying around when doing some planning on a garage and it helpd, man it been a long time since I had to use some of those figures, geometry?????

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>How do you figure the sq. ft. of a house seven sides? >Ex. 10×15x15×20x20×10x8 >(Not true measurements) >Thanks,

Get an 8th grader to do it if you can’t.  We’re not gonna teach you elementary geometry on the ‘net. Anyway. impossible to tell you without knowing how the 7 sides are layed out (obviously).  There is no universal formula for 7 irregular sides that we can give you to plug in.  And why won’t you give the "true" measurements???? Is this a troll or what, huh? -v.

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> How do you figure the sq. ft. of a house seven sides? > Ex. 10×15x15×20x20×10x8 > (Not true measurements) > Thanks, > Dak

If you don’t have a planimeter handy and the shape is quite irregular (i.e., you can’t divide it easily into a set shapes whose areas can be easily calculated), then you can estimate the area, to any desired level of precision: Do a SEGMENT-BY-SEGMENT layout TO SCALE on graph paper and count the squares filled by the shape. For partially filled squares, count anything half-filled or more as a full square and anything less than half-filled as zero. The finer the gauge of the graph paper the more precise the estimate.

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I would find someone who knows something about geometry. This is pretty basic stuff. Try a grade 7 math teacher. djb In article > How do you figure the sq. ft. of a house seven sides? > Ex. 10×15x15×20x20×10x8 > (Not true measurements) > Thanks, > Dak

–

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Okay, so he is math-challenged…… Take a piece of graph paper- the kind with all the little squares like you play battleship with. Draw a map of the house, one foot per square. Count all the squares inside the lines. :^/ aem sends….

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I would find someone who knows something about geometry. This is pretty > basic stuff. > Try a grade 7 math teacher. > djb > In article > How do you figure the sq. ft. of a house seven sides? > Ex. 10×15x15×20x20×10x8 > (Not true measurements) > Thanks, > Dak > —

Response:

Oh, sure… Make it easy for him. > Okay, so he is math-challenged…… > Take a piece of graph paper- the kind with all the little squares like you > play battleship with. > Draw a map of the house, one foot per square. > Count all the squares inside the lines.

–

Response:

All I asked was a simple question. I didn’t insult anyone nor did I make accusations. I don’t care what you intelligence level is. I do wish someone would give me the formula for computing square feet. Unlike most of the people on the net, I’m not a newbie. I have been around awhile, which explains why I don’t remember the formula for square feet on a shape with odd sizes. I’m not in 7th grade and honestly don’t remember what the formula is. If you do, please share it with me. If not, you are not the person the question was directed to. Just looking for a helping hand, Dak

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> All I asked was a simple question. I didn’t insult anyone nor did I make > accusations. I don’t care what you intelligence level is. I do wish someone > would give me the formula for computing square feet. Unlike most of the > people on the net, I’m not a newbie. I have been around awhile, which > explains why I don’t remember the formula for square feet on a shape with > odd sizes. I’m not in 7th grade and honestly don’t remember what the formula

1.  For squares and rectangles, area = base times height. 2.  For triangles, area = half base times height. 3.  There is no simple formula for calculating the area of a seven-sided figure. 4.  But for real estate purposes you do not need to be more accurate than 5 to 10 per cent. — |        Carlsbad Springs, Ottawa, Canada        |

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> 1.  For squares and rectangles, area = base times height. > 2.  For triangles, area = half base times height. > 3.  There is no simple formula for calculating the > area of a seven-sided figure. > 4.  But for real estate purposes you do not need > to be more accurate than 5 to 10 per cent.

Also for the seven=sided figure (3), you break it down into rectangles and triangles and sum all the areas. Don

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>… I don’t remember the formula for square feet on a shape with >odd sizes.

I TOLD you… there is no universal formula in any pactical sense. Just break the irregular shape down into rectangles and triangles. Surely you do know the formula for a rectangle?  Triangles are not that hard either. -v..

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>All I asked was a simple question. I do wish someone >would give me the formula for computing square feet. I don’t remember >the formula for square feet on a shape with >odd sizes. I’m not in 7th grade and honestly don’t remember what the formula >is. If you do, please share it with me.

Here’s the simple way, in three easy steps: First, draw out your odd-size seven-sided shape, preferably on graph paper. Measure in inches for more accuracy. Next, you’ll have to describe the outline of your shape as an equation: some regression or inverse Fourier transforms might do nicely. It will help if you pick a convenient origin — the area won’t change if you pick something more difficult, though. Finally, integrate your shape! If you were lucky in step two, then your equation will only vary in X. Otherwise, you’ll have have to integrate in both X and Y. If you have lots of curves, you might try polar coordinates. Don’t forget to divide your result by (12^2 =) 144 to get square feet! If this is too "mathematical" for you, then I suggest the following: First, go to an office supply store, and buy a box of photocopy paper. Letter size works best, but legal will do in a pinch. Next, go home and open a package, and start laying the paper out around the house. The outside, I mean. It helps if it’s not too windy, and probably more comfortable if it’s not raining. Keep laying paper until all the area of your lot that is not your house is covered. A stapler or a whole bunch of rocks may help. Count the sheets of paper along the long edge of your lot, and the sheets along the short edge. Multiply these numbers. This is the area of your lot, in sheets of paper. Now, count the actual number of sheets of paper on your lot. This number will be smaller than the number you calculated; find the difference (this can be done with "subtraction.") This is the area of your odd-sized seven-sided shape, in sheets of paper. Now, multiply by the handy-dandy factor of 0.64930555, which is the square footage of a letter-sized sheet of paper. The result is the area of your odd-sized seven-sided shape, in square feet! If that’s too much like work, then you could try this approximation: Get a piece of string. A nice *long* piece of string! Measure off the perimeter of your shape (presumably a house?) with the string. The "perimeter" is the distance all the way around the shape, following each side closely. Once you have that length, measure the length of the string. Now multiply that length by itself (that’s called "squaring" the number!) Your shape will have an area no larger than 0.07958 times the result; in fact, it will be quite a bit smaller (unless your odd-sized seven-sided shape is actually a circle, or approximates one). I still think method one is probably your best bet… but please don’t bother me for any more help: I’ve "been around a while," and can’t remember how those pesky Fourier transforms work!

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>3.  There is no simple formula for calculating the >area of a seven-sided figure.

Actually, there is a surprisingly simple formula for calculating the area enclosed in a n-sided closed shape, provided you know the coordinates of each vertex.  It was the basis of the very first computer program I wrote many moons ago.  For seven sides it would be easy to calculate by hand.  Unfortunately, I no longer remember the formula because of too many intervening moons.  However, knowing that something exists to solve the problem gets you 80% of the way to solving it. SteveR s.r.r.2 a.t w.i.n.s.o.c.k.e.t d.o.t c.o.m

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>>3.  There is no simple formula for calculating the >area of a seven-sided figure.

SteveR ( s.r.r.2 a.t w.i.n.s.o.c.k.e.t d.o.t c.o.m ) writes: > Actually, there is a surprisingly simple formula for calculating the > area enclosed in a n-sided closed shape, provided you know the > coordinates of each vertex.  It was the basis of the very first > computer program I wrote many moons ago.  For seven sides it would be > easy to calculate by hand.  Unfortunately, I no longer remember the > formula because of too many intervening moons.  However, knowing that

I rest my case.  A "simple formula" that its author cannot remember is not really a simple formula. — |        Carlsbad Springs, Ottawa, Canada        |

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>I rest my case.  A "simple formula" that its author >cannot remember is not really a simple formula.

Are you really such an ass or do you just play one on TV?  Yes, it’s a simple formula.  No, I am NOT the author of the formula.  No, I don’t remember it exactly.  So freakin’ sue me.  I’m telling the OP that there is a solution to the problem if he’s willing to do a bit of research, but I’m not going to research it for him.  So what’s *your* problem? Were you under the impression that your post added something to this thread? <plonk> SteveR s.r.r.2 a.t w.i.n.s.o.c.k.e.t d.o.t c.o.m

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http://forum.swarthmore.edu/dr.math/problems/bachmann.8.20.99.html Area of Polygon Dr. Math, I found it stated in a popular little paperback on math that a surveyor can calculate the area of a polygon this way: 1. Lay out and measure a line of any length within the polygon (the    "base line"). 2. Measure the angle to each vertex of the polygon from each end of    the line. The resulting length of the single line and the angles supposedly contain sufficient information to compute the area. In trying to solve this I’ve been able to compute the areas of triangles that have as one of their sides the base line, and I’ve been able to solve some, but not all, of the other triangles. I’m stuck on a few peripheral triangles for which I can’t seem to get enough information to solve. Is there a general algorithm to solve this problem for polygons of any number of sides; convex, concave, or when you do not have the lengths of any sides? If I can ever figure this out, I want to write a program to do the calculations. Thanks very much, Ed —— Hi, Ed. It’s obvious that there is enough information in the angles and the baseline, because they are sufficient to draw the figure (using ASA repeatedly), and therefore the area is determined by these numbers. What you want to know, of course, is HOW? I’m not familiar with any traditional method used by surveyors, but I can at least come up with a method that will work. It takes two steps. First, if we choose a coordinate system with one end of the baseline as the origin and the other as point (d,0), we can find the coordinates of each vertex. I used this figure:              P              +             /|            / |             /  |              /   |y               /    |                /     |                 /a     |            b      A   x        d-x        B to write two equations          y/x = tan(a)      y/(d-x) = tan(b) from which I got the formulas              d                        d         tan(a)                   1        1         —— + 1             —— + ——         tan(b)                 tan(a)   tan(b) You can check those; I did it pretty quickly, but it gives the idea. The cases where the tangents are 0 or infinite can be handled easily. The second step is to use these coordinates for each point (x_n,y_n) to find the area. There is a standard formula for this:      A = [(x1y2 + x2y3 + ... + xny1) - (y1x2 + y2x3 + ... + ynx1)]/2 I think that should be enough – maybe not as elegant as it could be, but pretty straightforward. – Doctor Peterson, The Math Forum   http://forum.swarthmore.edu/dr.math/

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Question:

I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter.  They are quite active and seem to respond to light.  The first time I saw this I though it was a fluke (no pun intended) and simply flushed them, adding some bleach.  But a few weeks later when I went to do some more work on the house, they were back.  These are earthworm-pink in color and stay under water.  I have read about horse hair worms but these seem thicker than implied by that description.  Any idea what these might be or who I might go to with a sample I captured?  Our local agricultural school is no longer funded to provide county-extension services to the public and exterminators have never heard of such a thing.  The house is on septic (soon to switch to sewer), but it seems unlikely that the worms crawl up the vertical main stack to get to the second floor toilet, bypassing the one on the first floor.  My thought is that something is entering through the vent stack and laying eggs in the toilet trap.                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

Response:

[following up to my own posting]

| I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms | appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do | flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple | of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. Actually, make that 1/8" diameter…                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

Response:

Long shot possibility: The wax seal has failed.  The worms are living in the rotting wood flooring and are able to negotiate the tiny opening in the seal in search of water. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [following up to my own posting] > | I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms > | appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do > | flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple > | of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. > Actually, make that 1/8" diameter… >                                 Dan Lanciani >                                 .*com

Response:

Quite possible.  With the toilet out of use the area around the toilet is drying up, so all the bugs will come out looking for water. If this is the case then likely the flooring under the toilet is getting pretty spongy and some repair work may be needed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Long shot possibility: > The wax seal has failed.  The worms are living > in the rotting wood flooring and are able to > negotiate the tiny opening in the seal in search > of water. > Jim > [following up to my own posting] > | I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms > | appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do > | flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple > | of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. > Actually, make that 1/8" diameter… >                                 Dan Lanciani >                                 .*com

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Got a computer flatbed scanner?  Catch a worm or two or more, put ‘em into a baggie.  Set it on the flatbed and SCAN US A PICTURE of them! They may also be one of the parasitic worms which infest small animals (dogs cats squirrels etc).   I’d bet there’s a usenet forum for worms or parasites (no, not the one for lawyers) where they’d jump all over your worms!  

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| Got a computer flatbed scanner? In fact, I just got one.  Amazing how cheap they have become… | Catch a worm or two or more, put ‘em | into a baggie.  Set it on the flatbed and SCAN US A PICTURE of them! Ok.  The one I captured previously died and I think it may have started to decompose; however, I scanned it.  The pictures can be viewed at: http://www.danlan.com/worm.html I think it stretched a little as a result of my skewering it out of the paper cup of water where I had it stored.  The worms seem to remain completely submerged in the toilet but this one died in a cup of water.  One interesting thing that doesn’t show up in the picture: where the worm was damaged by my handling it glows green in the illumination of the scanner’s tube.                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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— READ AND POST EVERYDAY, ITS A COMMITMENT! rosie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – (Winifred Carbunkle) writes: > | Got a computer flatbed scanner? > In fact, I just got one.  Amazing how cheap they have become… > | Catch a worm or two or more, put ‘em > | into a baggie.  Set it on the flatbed and SCAN US A PICTURE of them! > Ok.  The one I captured previously died and I think it may have started to > decompose; however, I scanned it.  The pictures can be viewed at: > http://www.danlan.com/worm.html > I think it stretched a little as a result of my skewering it out of the paper > cup of water where I had it stored.  The worms seem to remain completely > submerged in the toilet but this one died in a cup of water.  One interesting > thing that doesn’t show up in the picture: where the worm was damaged by my > handling it glows green in the illumination of the scanner’s tube. > Dan Lanciani > .*com

Response:

It does, doesn’t it?  However, the earthworms I see here in the earth are considerably fatter.  Maybe being under water has some effect…                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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I would be concerned that you have some major rot somewhere, or a broken sewer line.  Worms that used to be perfectly happy elsewhere are coming inside to look for water since the toilet isn’t being used. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > | Got a computer flatbed scanner? > In fact, I just got one.  Amazing how cheap they have become… > | Catch a worm or two or more, put ‘em > | into a baggie.  Set it on the flatbed and SCAN US A PICTURE of them! > Ok.  The one I captured previously died and I think it may have started to > decompose; however, I scanned it.  The pictures can be viewed at: > http://www.danlan.com/worm.html > I think it stretched a little as a result of my skewering it out of the paper > cup of water where I had it stored.  The worms seem to remain completely > submerged in the toilet but this one died in a cup of water.  One interesting > thing that doesn’t show up in the picture: where the worm was damaged by my > handling it glows green in the illumination of the scanner’s tube. >                                 Dan Lanciani >                                 .*com

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Are you a fisherman?  Hell, you have your own supply of worms! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Ok.  The one I captured previously died and I think it may have > started to > decompose; however, I scanned it.  The pictures can be viewed at: > http://www.danlan.com/worm.html > I think it stretched a little as a result of my skewering it out of > the paper > cup of water where I had it stored.  The worms seem to remain > completely > submerged in the toilet but this one died in a cup of water.  One > interesting > thing that doesn’t show up in the picture: where the worm was damaged > by my > handling it glows green in the illumination of the scanner’s tube.

Dan, what you have here is an aquatic version of the earthworm. They are very common and are not harmful in themselves however their presence in your home indicates to me that you probably have a non- chlorinated well with extreme surface influence and should have your water tested for Coliform bacteria. I’m guessing that eggs rather than adults are entering your home system and you would see them in other areas if they were given a chance to hatch and grow. Treating just the toilet won’t cure your problem. You may want to shock chlorinate the entire well whenever these critters show up or consider a more permanent treatment option such as filtration to remove the eggs and/or UV. You can learn more about aquatic earthworms here: http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Science/SWCS/xxv.html (The site even has a photo very similar to the one you took.) — David (Remove "NO." spam protection) Opinions expressed are my own.

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| Dan, what you have here is an aquatic version of the earthworm. They | are very common and are not harmful in themselves however their | presence in your home indicates to me that you probably have a non- | chlorinated well with extreme surface influence and should have your | water tested for Coliform bacteria. | | I’m guessing that eggs rather than adults are entering your home system | and you would see them in other areas if they were given a chance to | hatch and grow. Treating just the toilet won’t cure your problem. You | may want to shock chlorinate the entire well whenever these critters | show up or consider a more permanent treatment option such as | filtration to remove the eggs and/or UV. The house is on city water.  Granted the water can be pretty bad, but they do dump loads of chlorine in it I think.                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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| One other thing to consider. | Do YOU have tapeworms? | I’d see a doctor if you think it’s possible. While undoubtedly good advise in general, it’s not really relevant since I’ve never used the toilet (or for that matter, any toilet in the house)… Now I have seen tapeworms and to me they don’t look anything like what I scanned.  Does it appear to be a tapeworm to you?                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ok.  The one I captured previously died and I think it may have > started to > decompose; however, I scanned it.  The pictures can be viewed at: > http://www.danlan.com/worm.html > I think it stretched a little as a result of my skewering it out of > the paper > cup of water where I had it stored.  The worms seem to remain > completely > submerged in the toilet but this one died in a cup of water.  One > interesting > thing that doesn’t show up in the picture: where the worm was damaged > by my > handling it glows green in the illumination of the scanner’s tube. > Dan, what you have here is an aquatic version of the earthworm. They > are very common and are not harmful in themselves however their > presence in your home indicates to me that you probably have a non- > chlorinated well with extreme surface influence and should have your > water tested for Coliform bacteria.

If they’re coming in via the domestic water supply then they’ll be in the toilet tank as well as in the bowl.

Response:

Seems to me you have a break in the line between the septic tank and the house.  For some reason the worms can’t enter the toilet I think you mentioned was downstairs.  I’d bet the two toliets were different in design. I’d also bet where ever the house is located it rains a lot or thr soil around the house is very wet. Tom W. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Ok.  The one I captured previously died and I think it may have > > started to > > decompose; however, I scanned it.  The pictures can be viewed at: > > http://www.danlan.com/worm.html > > I think it stretched a little as a result of my skewering it out of > > the paper > > cup of water where I had it stored.  The worms seem to remain > > completely > > submerged in the toilet but this one died in a cup of water.  One > > interesting > > thing that doesn’t show up in the picture: where the worm was damaged > > by my > > handling it glows green in the illumination of the scanner’s tube. > Dan, what you have here is an aquatic version of the earthworm. They > are very common and are not harmful in themselves however their > presence in your home indicates to me that you probably have a non- > chlorinated well with extreme surface influence and should have your > water tested for Coliform bacteria. > If they’re coming in via the domestic water supply then they’ll be in > the toilet tank as well as in the bowl.

Response:

> > Dan, what you have here is an aquatic version of the earthworm. They > are very common and are not harmful in themselves however their > presence in your home indicates to me that you probably have a non- > chlorinated well with extreme surface influence and should have your > water tested for Coliform bacteria. > If they’re coming in via the domestic water supply then they’ll be in > the toilet tank as well as in the bowl.

Only if there were enough organic material in the tank for the hatchlings to eat and grow to a size where they would be noticable. Organic material in the bowel is conceivable. Organic material in the tank is less likely. All that aside, the owners says he is on a chlorinated city sytem so my theroy falls flat anyway. — David (Remove "NO." spam protection) Opinions expressed are my own.

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Author: Dan Lanciani <.*com> Dan, I tried to reply to this thread directly but you had some sort of restriction on it to only reply by e-mail. I will e-mail this response to you, however I think it is the function of this newsgroup to share all responses publicly so that we may all learn from these experiences. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > (David Thomas) writes: >| Dan, what you have here is an aquatic version of the earthworm. They >| are very common and are not harmful in themselves however their >| presence in your home indicates to me that you probably have a non- >| chlorinated well with extreme surface influence and should have your >| water tested for Coliform bacteria. >| >| I’m guessing that eggs rather than adults are entering your home >  system >| and you would see them in other areas if they were given a chance to >| hatch and grow. Treating just the toilet won’t cure your problem. You >| may want to shock chlorinate the entire well whenever these critters >| show up or consider a more permanent treatment option such as >| filtration to remove the eggs and/or UV. >The house is on city water.  Granted the water can be pretty bad, but >they do dump loads of chlorine in it I think.

I don’t recall if you mentioned where you hail from or the name of your water supplier. Any information you can give can certainly help. Does your supplier use ground water or surface water? If the supplier uses chlorine continuously then chances are good the worms aren’t coming from the domestic supply. If they use chlorine kinda hit and miss then its another matter. Is your home located near any rivers, lakes or swamps? (Here’s an age-old question) Do you leave the stool lid up or down? I’ve forwarded your photo to a university with a request for a better identification of the worm than I can do. If you want to go to extremes you can pickle a few of the worms in rubbing alcohol and send them to me. (Clean glass baby food jar work very well.) Armed with that information, we stand a better chance at determining how the things are getting into your home. From your description and photo, I feel these are truly aquatic Oligochaetes and not just earthworms that entered your sewage system through a crack in the pipe and crawled up the stack to get to your upstairs toilet bowel. If you are curious you could try a little experiment. Flush any worms down and then after the bowel refills, dip a quart of the bowel water into an open glass bowel (or jar) and set it on the bathroom counter. (Flush the stool again so the water level is back where it should be.) Now fill two more similar bowels from your kitchen tap and place them next to the first after covering one with cellophane wrap. Wait until the worms reappear in the toilet and then check the three bowels for similar occupants. Let us know the results. If the worms are only in the toilet bowel, that would point a finger at your sewage system. — David (Remove "NO." spam protection) Opinions expressed are my own.

Response:

| | > | >| One other thing to consider. | >| Do YOU have tapeworms? | >| I’d see a doctor if you think it’s possible. | > | >While undoubtedly good advise in general, it’s not really relevant since | >I’ve never used the toilet (or for that matter, any toilet in the house)… | >Now I have seen tapeworms and to me they don’t look anything like what I | >scanned.  Does it appear to be a tapeworm to you? | > | >                          Dan Lanciani | >                          .*com | | I didnt see your scan.  Where is it? http://www.danlan.com/worm.html | I didnt get all of this thread. | I never seen a human tape worm either, but my cats had them once. | (gross) ! I’ve seen dog and cat versions; I assumed human-inhabiting ones likely looked similar… | Just curious, well, probably none of my business, but where DO you | use the toilet <grin> ? In the house where I live…  The house with the toilet with the worms is unoccupied.                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

Response:

> http://www.danlan.com/worm.html > | I didnt get all of this thread. > | I never seen a human tape worm either, but my cats had them once. > | (gross) ! > I’ve seen dog and cat versions; I assumed human-inhabiting ones likely > looked similar… > | Just curious, well, probably none of my business, but where DO you > | use the toilet <grin> ? > In the house where I live…  The house with the toilet with the worms > is unoccupied.

Could it be a starved earthworm which has come up some time ago from a cracked sewer pipe or been dropped down a vent by a bird? —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

>|Dan, I tried to reply to this thread directly but you had some sort of >|restriction on it to only reply by e-mail. >I’m sorry about that.  My news reader has a "feature" that inserts a >reply-to line on any posting which goes to more than one group.  (I >guess it’s supposed to discourage cross-posting).  Sometimes I forget >to delete it.  Please feel free (even encouraged!) to post the reply >you emailed me.

The worst thing for me in participating in these newsgroups is also the pesky quirks of my reader. >|I don’t recall if you mentioned where you hail from or the name of >|your water >|supplier. >Gloucester, MA (and the city is the supplier)  Our city is known for >having some of the strictest environmental regulations in a state >known for same.  I’m about to spend $150k to connect this house to a >sewer.  Gloucester doesn’t install sewers any more, leaving it to >individuals.  After you install the sewer you get to pay the city an >additional 40% and then 5 years later they take ownership if they like >the maintenance records.  Unfortunately, most of the environmental >regulations apply only to the residents and not to the city itself.

I found one community system in MA on EPA’s web site for such things (http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw/dwinfo.htm) with the name you indicated: GLOUCESTER DPW WATER DEPT. in Essex county serving a population of 39,000 with surface water as it primary source. EPA’s site shows one health violation of the Coliform rule on JUN-30- 1997 (failure to report) and another violation between OCT-01-1998 and DEC-31-1998 for failure to complete all required samples in a timely manner for monitoring nitrates. As is typical of most EPA violations (see next paragraph), these are both "red-tape" violations rather than "bad-water" violations. In both cases the water system complied with EPA’s follow up actions in a timely manner, public notification on JUL- 10-1997 for the former and a response (an explanation of why they failed to comply) to the formal Notice Of Violation on FEB-05-1999 for the latter. For comparisons, in 1998 (the last year for which EPA has complete data), based on information reported to EPA by the states, 0.75 percent of all systems violated a treatment technique, 5 percent of all systems violated an MCL, and 17.6 percent of all systems had a reporting/monitoring violation. That is, almost one in five systems had a "red-tape" violation of some kind. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->|Any information you can give can certainly help. Does your supplier >|use ground water or surface water? >As far as I know it’s all surface. >|If the supplier uses chlorine continuously >|then chances are good the worms aren’t coming from the domestic >|supply. If they >|use chlorine kinda hit and miss then its another matter. >Well, the whole water supply is kind of hit-or-miss.  For two years we >were on water restrictions not because there was a lack of water but >because the main pump was broken and the city was unwilling to hire an >engineer to fix it. The pipes in the street are very old and from time >to time the city backflushes them for our enjoyment.  This results in >lots of solid matter in the supply for the following day.  However, >all that said, I currently live in a house near the subject house and >connected to exactly the same water supply line. (And I mean exactly: >the connection to the main is probably within a few feet.)  There is a >seldom-used toilet in this house as well and it has never shown any >signs of worms.  Moreover, I’ve had tap water standing in tanks, snow >globes (don’t laugh) and the like for months without any worms >appearing.

OK, my idea of eggs in the water hatching was all wet. I also found out that these critters have a life-cycle of one or two years, so the idea that they could hatch and grow to the size of the one you scanned in just weeks is just more cold water on that theory. I’ll lean with the majority that these worms are crawling into the tiolet from the sewer system, although I have to wonder why they haven’t shown up in other areas of the house. >|Is your home located >|near any rivers, lakes or swamps? >Just the ocean.

I was just over in Beverly back in early Dec. Nice area, bad drivers. >|(Here’s an age-old question) Do you leave the >|stool lid up or down? >I don’t really remember because I didn’t actually use the that >bathroom.  Since I noticed the worms I’ve been leaving it down.

Although the women-folk may not approve, try leaving the lid up. These type of worms are usually photophobic and will avoid direct light if they can, hopefully there is a window in the bathroom. I’m not sure its worth leaving a light on if there isn’t a window but that could also be a "treatment" option (as in directing a spotlight onto the bowel if there is tracked lighting available). "Green" treatments are the rage these days and I think fresh walnut hulls left in the toilet bowel might repel the worms too. (Unfortunately it might also leave a brown stain in the bowel.) Perhaps grind up a slurry of walnut hulls and pour it down one of the stack vents closest to the second story bathroom? (Its not the best time of year to find fresh walnut hulls, I admit.) >|I’ve forwarded your photo to a university with a request for a better >|identification of the worm than I can do. >Thanks!

It was easy to do but not as easy to get information back. So far not a word in response. >|If you want to go to extremes you can >|pickle a few of the worms in rubbing alcohol and send them to me. >I think the chlorine in the toilet has really been discouraging them, >but when it dissipates I’ll bet they will reappear and I’ll capture a >few more. By rubbing alcohol do you mean isopropyl or ethyl/denatured?

Any alcohol will do (even vodka) as long as it is 70% (140 proof) or more. >|I feel these are truly aquatic Oligochaetes and not just >|earthworms that entered your sewage system through a crack in the >|pipe and >|crawled up the stack to get to your upstairs toilet bowel. >They certainly didn’t act like they were drowning, so I think you must >be right.  They couldn’t be leeches, could they?  The mouth on one end >looked pretty big and they waved those ends in a threatening way.

No, these worms are not leeches. Leeches are relatively smooth-skinned flatworms with a very apparent sucker on both ends. Try http://www.gondar.co.uk/abe/leeches.html "Leeches – Hirundinea" for more information on leeches (I’m currently having trouble with my browser and wasn’t able to preview this site but it sounded like a good one from the directory I used.) In the photo you provided, IMO the mouth was located on the lower right of the critter (the end closest to the ruler). The other end (which was not as easy to see in the photo) appeared to be flattened with respect to the rest of the body and is either used in locomotion or as a breathing gill which would require waving around in either case. The clincher that the critter you scanned is a member of the earthworm family is the slightly thicker segment about an inch behind the head (called a clitellum). It isn’t as obvious as on the typical earthworm we all know and love but that is often the case in the true aquatic species. — David (Remove "NO." spam protection) Opinions expressed are my own.

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> No, it’s not a typo.  In fact, it’s probably on the conservative side.  The > run is about 1300 feet at $100/foot for trenching and installation of PVC > pressure pipe.

$100 a foot?  What are they digging through, granite? — Tony

Response:

[...] | As is typical of most EPA violations | (see next paragraph), these are both "red-tape" violations rather than | "bad-water" violations. Of course, nobody has ever come to sample the water from our taps, so all the EPA’s monitoring requirements tend to ignore the state of the ~100 year old pipes in the road.  Not that I think there are worm eggs there, but all the black and brown solid material that appears after each back-flush makes for bad water in my book.  (It also plugs up the toilet fill valves, sink & tub flow restrictors, etc.) | I also found out | that these critters have a life-cycle of one or two years, so the idea | that they could hatch and grow to the size of the one you scanned in | just weeks is just more cold water on that theory. Years?  Hmm, I know it can be extremely misleading to extrapolate from so few samples, but I really had the feeling that they were growing there. On one occasion after a few days there was one small worm.  Later after more time there was the large one I scanned.  Prior to all that I had left the house alone for more weeks and there were lots of large ones. But I suppose it’s equally possible that they just enter with some fixed probability, so the longer you wait the more there are and the more likely it is that there are large ones. | I’ll lean with the | majority that these worms are crawling into the tiolet from the sewer | system, although I have to wonder why they haven’t shown up in other | areas of the house. Especially the toilet on the first floor…  I just find it hard to believe that they are crawling all the way up the main stack (which was probably dry until I started worrying about this) to find water when they could simply go down to the septic tank (which has always had water in it). I was up on the roof a few months ago and I did inspect the stack.  No obvious blockage, birds, deposits of organic matter, etc. | Although the women-folk may not approve, try leaving the lid up. These | type of worms are usually photophobic and will avoid direct light if | they can, hopefully there is a window in the bathroom. They certainly react to light, though I’d say they are attracted to it. That’s how I baited the one I captured up from the bottom of the bowl, and after it was in the cup I could get it to stick its head up by shining a flashlight. | "Green" treatments are the rage | these days and I think fresh walnut hulls left in the toilet bowel | might repel the worms too. I’m happy with the un-green chlorine tablets.  If chlorine is good enough for potable water & pools, it’s good enough for the toilet. | >|I’ve forwarded your photo to a university with a request for a better | >|identification of the worm than I can do. | | >Thanks! | | It was easy to do but not as easy to get information back. So far not a | word in response. They probably don’t want to panic the public. | In the photo you provided, IMO the mouth was located on the lower right | of the critter (the end closest to the ruler). The other end (which was | not as easy to see in the photo) appeared to be flattened with respect | to the rest of the body and is either used in locomotion or as a | breathing gill which would require waving around in either case. Or maybe I just damaged it…  I don’t think it looked flat at that end while it was alive. | The | clincher that the critter you scanned is a member of the earthworm | family is the slightly thicker segment about an inch behind the head | (called a clitellum). Now that feature was very obvious when it was alive.  Just like the picture in a book.  Unfortunately, the book was concerned with what to feed lizards, so it didn’t say much about the worm itself…                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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| | >Or you could put in a pretty fancy composting system with dual heated | >bucket seats and full dolby surround ice dispensers. Seriously | >though… I’d be looking at just about every other option. 150K is | >nuts! | | I’m pretty sure, unless the guy is running a multi-story apartment building, | it’s a typo. No, it’s not a typo.  In fact, it’s probably on the conservative side.  The run is about 1300 feet at $100/foot for trenching and installation of PVC pressure pipe.  There are additional costs for manholes and stub connections for other houses (even if they don’t want to connect).  The tank and grinder pump cost about $20k exclusive of electrical work.  (That’s per-house, so it doesn’t help anybody else who wants to connect.)  Then there is a sewer privilege fee (in lieu of betterment) to the city equal to 40% of what the city would have charged had they installed the sewer.  This fee is a wildcard as I can’t really find out what it will be until it’s too late.  Finally there is a 5 year bond of 25% of the total project cost.  I’m not sure what the carrying cost of that will be.  Oh, and that ignores all the engineering and permit fees, advertising, etc. And yes, I have considered every other option.  And no, I’m not running a multi-story apartment building.  Just a three-bedroom house.                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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>Gloucester, MA (and the city is the supplier)  Our city is known for >having some of the strictest environmental regulations in a state >known for same.  I’m about to spend $150k to connect this house to a

                                                                    ^^^^^^^ >sewer.  Gloucester doesn’t install sewers any more, leaving it to >individuals.  After you install the sewer you get to pay the city an >additional 40% and then 5 years later they take ownership if they like >the maintenance records.  Unfortunately, most of the environmental >regulations apply only to the residents and not to the city itself.

Dude,  For that kind of money, i’d be using a bucket and outhouse. pat

Response:

>Or you could put in a pretty fancy composting system with dual heated >bucket seats and full dolby surround ice dispensers. Seriously >though… I’d be looking at just about every other option. 150K is >nuts!

I’m pretty sure, unless the guy is running a multi-story apartment building, it’s a typo. J

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > | Suggestion…. > | > | Putting the bleach in the bowl is transient, and does nothing about the water > | in the tank, or the rim of the bowl… wonderful spot for these guys to hang > | out. > | > | Try putting a chlorine tablet (ask a friend who has a swimming pool) in th > | tank… that’ll take care of water from the tank, from the rim, in the bowl and > | out to the sewers. > Funny you should mention that.  The other day I put some more bleach in the > tank, flushed, re-bleached the tank and then put one of those tablets in the > bowl.  Today I found a (small) worm next to the tablet, seemingly dead.  So > I guess they are not hatching in the bowl but climbing in live.  The reason > I didn’t put a tablet in the tank at the time is that I was concerned it > would get caught in the flapper or other mechanism.  I may make a little cage > to hold the tablet until it dissolves.

Yeah, I suspect that they’re looking for water.  Probably they’re coming out of rotting wood in the area.

Response:

Got a computer flatbed scanner?  Catch a worm or two or more, put ‘em into a baggie.  Set it on the flatbed and SCAN US A PICTURE of them! They may also be one of the parasitic worms which infest small animals (dogs cats squirrels etc).   I’d bet there’s a usenet forum for worms or parasites (no, not the one for lawyers) where they’d jump all over your worms!  

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| Suggestion…. | | Putting the bleach in the bowl is transient, and does nothing about the water | in the tank, or the rim of the bowl… wonderful spot for these guys to hang | out. | | Try putting a chlorine tablet (ask a friend who has a swimming pool) in th | tank… that’ll take care of water from the tank, from the rim, in the bowl and | out to the sewers.   Funny you should mention that.  The other day I put some more bleach in the tank, flushed, re-bleached the tank and then put one of those tablets in the bowl.  Today I found a (small) worm next to the tablet, seemingly dead.  So I guess they are not hatching in the bowl but climbing in live.  The reason I didn’t put a tablet in the tank at the time is that I was concerned it would get caught in the flapper or other mechanism.  I may make a little cage to hold the tablet until it dissolves.                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

Response:

Do you have a university near you?  Contact the biology department and see if anyone would take a shot at identifying your worms.  If you can provide a big enough live sample, there might be a class that would like them for practice.

Response:

>(Bo Williams) writes: >| Got a county agent?  S/he could likely identify the worm for you. >The local agricultural college used to provide county-agent services, >but they say they are no longer funded to answer questions from the >public.  No luck yet finding a replacement…

Despite that line, I’d suggest taking a sample to a biologist there.  All the faculty I work with would be more than happy to answer a question like this (probably intruiged) and I’m sure would be able to help you out. Call up the biology department and ask the secretary to give you the name of someone you could visit late in the afternoon or over lunch. -Derek — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University        Dept. of History  "Let me go on record as stating that Mountain Dew, although a refreshing   and enjoyable beverage, is NOT A CONTRACEPTIVE."  -Ann Landers

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Have you seen any flies or other insects? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Dan Lanciani" <.*com> wrote > | >| I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house. Worms > | >| appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do > | >| flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple > | >| of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. > | > > | >Actually, make that 1/8" diameter… > | > | Pour a cup of bleach in the unused bowl and place the lid down. > Did that; they came back… > Dan Lanciani > .*com

Response:

>I’d like >to understand the infiltration mechanism.

They are likely hatching from eggs of flying critters, either from the top side or in the sewer line.

Response:

| >Did that; they came back… | | How soon? Weeks… | Was the toilet flushed inbetween the time the bleach went in and the | bugs came back? No. | The chlorine will evaporate out of the water over time and | retreatment may need to be done weekly. Yes, the chlorine smell was certainly gone.  However, I was hoping the bleach would somehow kill off the source (eggs somewhere?).  I’d like to understand the infiltration mechanism.                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

Response:

Suggestion…. Putting the bleach in the bowl is transient, and does nothing about the water in the tank, or the rim of the bowl… wonderful spot for these guys to hang out. Try putting a chlorine tablet (ask a friend who has a swimming pool) in th tank… that’ll take care of water from the tank, from the rim, in the bowl and out to the sewers.   The tablet may well last a week or so. The bathroom will smell of chlorine for a while, so you may want to leave a window opened.  One idea to limit the smells in the bathroom while you go through this process (especially as the bathroom is not normally used) is to cover the bowl, AND the tank with plastic wrap… that should contain the smell. BTW… if you do smell the chlorine despite sealing off the bowl and the tank, then its likely that you’ve got the leak under the toilet that other writers wrote about.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >[following up to my own posting] >writes: >| I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms >| appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do >| flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple >| of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. >Actually, make that 1/8" diameter… >                            Dan Lanciani >                            .*com

Maybe you should try stocking your toilet bowl with fish, to eat the worms…

Response:

>Did that; they came back…

How soon? Was the toilet flushed inbetween the time the bleach went in and the bugs came back? The chlorine will evaporate out of the water over time and retreatment may need to be done weekly.

Response:

neighbor, in florida… would go to vermont for three or four summer months i used to start her car monthly or so & roll the tires a tad. …a week or so before she returned –I’d get her fridge running, air the place out, etc. Her toilet evaporation was nil… she would saran wrap the bowl & tank too.

: >Did that; they came back… : : How soon? Was the toilet flushed inbetween the time the bleach went in and the : bugs came back? The chlorine will evaporate out of the water over time and : retreatment may need to be done weekly.

Response:

| Got a county agent?  S/he could likely identify the worm for you. The local agricultural college used to provide county-agent services, but they say they are no longer funded to answer questions from the public.  No luck yet finding a replacement…                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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| >| I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms | >| appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do | >| flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple | >| of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. | > | >Actually, make that 1/8" diameter… | | Pour a cup of bleach in the unused bowl and place the lid down. Did that; they came back…                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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| Have you looked in the tank? Yes, it looks clean.  I put some bleach in there as well just in case. (Yes, I know what it will do to the flapper.)  I’d really like to get the sample worm identified just in case it is something obnoxious…                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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> | Just a thought.  They may be tubifex  worms.  These worms, reddish > | in color,  live in streams, brooks, ditches or ponds and often get > | into sewers or drain traps where they multiply. often stopping up > | plumbing.  When disturbed, they retract as if the several hundred > | behave as one individual. > Do they pose any threat to humans or pets?

No, but if you have a freshwater aquarium, its inhabitants would gobble them up.  I doubt they’re Tubifex worms anyway–a toilet bowl is an unusually clean place for Tubifex to be found.  They like *seriously* nasty places. Got a county agent?  S/he could likely identify the worm for you. — "That’s nitpicking, isn’t it?" – Nigel Tufnel

Response:

Quite possible.  With the toilet out of use the area around the toilet is drying up, so all the bugs will come out looking for water. If this is the case then likely the flooring under the toilet is getting pretty spongy and some repair work may be needed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Long shot possibility: > The wax seal has failed.  The worms are living > in the rotting wood flooring and are able to > negotiate the tiny opening in the seal in search > of water. > Jim > [following up to my own posting] > | I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms > | appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do > | flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple > | of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. > Actually, make that 1/8" diameter… >                                 Dan Lanciani >                                 .*com

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I think I saw on TV or read somewhere that rats come up the toilets from the sewer in NY or somewhere. Maybe the rats are looking for worms?

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>| I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms >| appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do >| flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple >| of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. >Actually, make that 1/8" diameter…

Pour a cup of bleach in the unused bowl and place the lid down.

Response:

| Just a thought.  They may be tubifex  worms.  These worms, reddish | in color,  live in streams, brooks, ditches or ponds and often get | into sewers or drain traps where they multiply. often stopping up | plumbing.  When disturbed, they retract as if the several hundred | behave as one individual. Do they pose any threat to humans or pets? | The worms would probably live only a | hour or so in salt solution, but I am not certain the effects of | salt in a septic system. It doesn’t matter.  The sewer will be connected (at great expense ) before anyone lives there.                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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Long shot possibility: The wax seal has failed.  The worms are living in the rotting wood flooring and are able to negotiate the tiny opening in the seal in search of water. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [following up to my own posting] > | I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms > | appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do > | flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple > | of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. > Actually, make that 1/8" diameter… >                                 Dan Lanciani >                                 .*com

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Have you looked in the tank? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Long shot possibility: > The wax seal has failed.  The worms are living > in the rotting wood flooring and are able to > negotiate the tiny opening in the seal in search > of water. > Jim > [following up to my own posting] > | I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms > | appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do > | flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple > | of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. > Actually, make that 1/8" diameter… >                                 Dan Lanciani >                                 .*com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms > appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do > flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple > of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter.  They are quite active and seem > to respond to light.  The first time I saw this I though it was a fluke (no > pun intended) and simply flushed them, adding some bleach.  But a few weeks > later when I went to do some more work on the house, they were back.  These > are earthworm-pink in color and stay under water.  I have read about horse > hair worms but these seem thicker than implied by that description.  Any idea > what these might be or who I might go to with a sample I captured?  Our local > agricultural school is no longer funded to provide county-extension services > to the public and exterminators have never heard of such a thing.  The house > is on septic (soon to switch to sewer), but it seems unlikely that the worms > crawl up the vertical main stack to get to the second floor toilet, bypassing > the one on the first floor.  My thought is that something is entering through > the vent stack and laying eggs in the toilet trap.

It’s not at all unlikely that they’re coming down a vent if you have a tree branch over the roof.  Other than that I can’t say.

Response:

[following up to my own posting]

| I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms | appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do | flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple | of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. Actually, make that 1/8" diameter…                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter.  They are quite active and seem to respond to light.  The first time I saw this I though it was a fluke (no pun intended) and simply flushed them, adding some bleach.  But a few weeks later when I went to do some more work on the house, they were back.  These are earthworm-pink in color and stay under water.  I have read about horse hair worms but these seem thicker than implied by that description.  Any idea what these might be or who I might go to with a sample I captured?  Our local agricultural school is no longer funded to provide county-extension services to the public and exterminators have never heard of such a thing.  The house is on septic (soon to switch to sewer), but it seems unlikely that the worms crawl up the vertical main stack to get to the second floor toilet, bypassing the one on the first floor.  My thought is that something is entering through the vent stack and laying eggs in the toilet trap.                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > | Suggestion…. > | > | Putting the bleach in the bowl is transient, and does nothing about the water > | in the tank, or the rim of the bowl… wonderful spot for these guys to hang > | out. > | > | Try putting a chlorine tablet (ask a friend who has a swimming pool) in th > | tank… that’ll take care of water from the tank, from the rim, in the bowl and > | out to the sewers. > Funny you should mention that.  The other day I put some more bleach in the > tank, flushed, re-bleached the tank and then put one of those tablets in the > bowl.  Today I found a (small) worm next to the tablet, seemingly dead.  So > I guess they are not hatching in the bowl but climbing in live.  The reason > I didn’t put a tablet in the tank at the time is that I was concerned it > would get caught in the flapper or other mechanism.  I may make a little cage > to hold the tablet until it dissolves.

Yeah, I suspect that they’re looking for water.  Probably they’re coming out of rotting wood in the area.

Response:

Got a computer flatbed scanner?  Catch a worm or two or more, put ‘em into a baggie.  Set it on the flatbed and SCAN US A PICTURE of them! They may also be one of the parasitic worms which infest small animals (dogs cats squirrels etc).   I’d bet there’s a usenet forum for worms or parasites (no, not the one for lawyers) where they’d jump all over your worms!  

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| Suggestion…. | | Putting the bleach in the bowl is transient, and does nothing about the water | in the tank, or the rim of the bowl… wonderful spot for these guys to hang | out. | | Try putting a chlorine tablet (ask a friend who has a swimming pool) in th | tank… that’ll take care of water from the tank, from the rim, in the bowl and | out to the sewers.   Funny you should mention that.  The other day I put some more bleach in the tank, flushed, re-bleached the tank and then put one of those tablets in the bowl.  Today I found a (small) worm next to the tablet, seemingly dead.  So I guess they are not hatching in the bowl but climbing in live.  The reason I didn’t put a tablet in the tank at the time is that I was concerned it would get caught in the flapper or other mechanism.  I may make a little cage to hold the tablet until it dissolves.                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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Do you have a university near you?  Contact the biology department and see if anyone would take a shot at identifying your worms.  If you can provide a big enough live sample, there might be a class that would like them for practice.

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>(Bo Williams) writes: >| Got a county agent?  S/he could likely identify the worm for you. >The local agricultural college used to provide county-agent services, >but they say they are no longer funded to answer questions from the >public.  No luck yet finding a replacement…

Despite that line, I’d suggest taking a sample to a biologist there.  All the faculty I work with would be more than happy to answer a question like this (probably intruiged) and I’m sure would be able to help you out. Call up the biology department and ask the secretary to give you the name of someone you could visit late in the afternoon or over lunch. -Derek — Derek R. Larson           Indiana University        Dept. of History  "Let me go on record as stating that Mountain Dew, although a refreshing   and enjoyable beverage, is NOT A CONTRACEPTIVE."  -Ann Landers

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Have you seen any flies or other insects? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Dan Lanciani" <.*com> wrote > | >| I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house. Worms > | >| appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do > | >| flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple > | >| of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. > | > > | >Actually, make that 1/8" diameter… > | > | Pour a cup of bleach in the unused bowl and place the lid down. > Did that; they came back… > Dan Lanciani > .*com

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>I’d like >to understand the infiltration mechanism.

They are likely hatching from eggs of flying critters, either from the top side or in the sewer line.

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| >Did that; they came back… | | How soon? Weeks… | Was the toilet flushed inbetween the time the bleach went in and the | bugs came back? No. | The chlorine will evaporate out of the water over time and | retreatment may need to be done weekly. Yes, the chlorine smell was certainly gone.  However, I was hoping the bleach would somehow kill off the source (eggs somewhere?).  I’d like to understand the infiltration mechanism.                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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Suggestion…. Putting the bleach in the bowl is transient, and does nothing about the water in the tank, or the rim of the bowl… wonderful spot for these guys to hang out. Try putting a chlorine tablet (ask a friend who has a swimming pool) in th tank… that’ll take care of water from the tank, from the rim, in the bowl and out to the sewers.   The tablet may well last a week or so. The bathroom will smell of chlorine for a while, so you may want to leave a window opened.  One idea to limit the smells in the bathroom while you go through this process (especially as the bathroom is not normally used) is to cover the bowl, AND the tank with plastic wrap… that should contain the smell. BTW… if you do smell the chlorine despite sealing off the bowl and the tank, then its likely that you’ve got the leak under the toilet that other writers wrote about.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >[following up to my own posting] >writes: >| I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms >| appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do >| flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple >| of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. >Actually, make that 1/8" diameter… >                            Dan Lanciani >                            .*com

Maybe you should try stocking your toilet bowl with fish, to eat the worms…

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>Did that; they came back…

How soon? Was the toilet flushed inbetween the time the bleach went in and the bugs came back? The chlorine will evaporate out of the water over time and retreatment may need to be done weekly.

Response:

neighbor, in florida… would go to vermont for three or four summer months i used to start her car monthly or so & roll the tires a tad. …a week or so before she returned –I’d get her fridge running, air the place out, etc. Her toilet evaporation was nil… she would saran wrap the bowl & tank too.

: >Did that; they came back… : : How soon? Was the toilet flushed inbetween the time the bleach went in and the : bugs came back? The chlorine will evaporate out of the water over time and : retreatment may need to be done weekly.

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| Got a county agent?  S/he could likely identify the worm for you. The local agricultural college used to provide county-agent services, but they say they are no longer funded to answer questions from the public.  No luck yet finding a replacement…                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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| >| I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms | >| appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do | >| flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple | >| of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. | > | >Actually, make that 1/8" diameter… | | Pour a cup of bleach in the unused bowl and place the lid down. Did that; they came back…                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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| Have you looked in the tank? Yes, it looks clean.  I put some bleach in there as well just in case. (Yes, I know what it will do to the flapper.)  I’d really like to get the sample worm identified just in case it is something obnoxious…                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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> | Just a thought.  They may be tubifex  worms.  These worms, reddish > | in color,  live in streams, brooks, ditches or ponds and often get > | into sewers or drain traps where they multiply. often stopping up > | plumbing.  When disturbed, they retract as if the several hundred > | behave as one individual. > Do they pose any threat to humans or pets?

No, but if you have a freshwater aquarium, its inhabitants would gobble them up.  I doubt they’re Tubifex worms anyway–a toilet bowl is an unusually clean place for Tubifex to be found.  They like *seriously* nasty places. Got a county agent?  S/he could likely identify the worm for you. — "That’s nitpicking, isn’t it?" – Nigel Tufnel

Response:

Quite possible.  With the toilet out of use the area around the toilet is drying up, so all the bugs will come out looking for water. If this is the case then likely the flooring under the toilet is getting pretty spongy and some repair work may be needed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Long shot possibility: > The wax seal has failed.  The worms are living > in the rotting wood flooring and are able to > negotiate the tiny opening in the seal in search > of water. > Jim > [following up to my own posting] > | I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms > | appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do > | flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple > | of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. > Actually, make that 1/8" diameter… >                                 Dan Lanciani >                                 .*com

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I think I saw on TV or read somewhere that rats come up the toilets from the sewer in NY or somewhere. Maybe the rats are looking for worms?

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>| I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms >| appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do >| flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple >| of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. >Actually, make that 1/8" diameter…

Pour a cup of bleach in the unused bowl and place the lid down.

Response:

| Just a thought.  They may be tubifex  worms.  These worms, reddish | in color,  live in streams, brooks, ditches or ponds and often get | into sewers or drain traps where they multiply. often stopping up | plumbing.  When disturbed, they retract as if the several hundred | behave as one individual. Do they pose any threat to humans or pets? | The worms would probably live only a | hour or so in salt solution, but I am not certain the effects of | salt in a septic system. It doesn’t matter.  The sewer will be connected (at great expense ) before anyone lives there.                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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Long shot possibility: The wax seal has failed.  The worms are living in the rotting wood flooring and are able to negotiate the tiny opening in the seal in search of water. Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > [following up to my own posting] > | I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms > | appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do > | flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple > | of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. > Actually, make that 1/8" diameter… >                                 Dan Lanciani >                                 .*com

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Have you looked in the tank? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Long shot possibility: > The wax seal has failed.  The worms are living > in the rotting wood flooring and are able to > negotiate the tiny opening in the seal in search > of water. > Jim > [following up to my own posting] > | I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms > | appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do > | flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple > | of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. > Actually, make that 1/8" diameter… >                                 Dan Lanciani >                                 .*com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms > appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do > flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple > of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter.  They are quite active and seem > to respond to light.  The first time I saw this I though it was a fluke (no > pun intended) and simply flushed them, adding some bleach.  But a few weeks > later when I went to do some more work on the house, they were back.  These > are earthworm-pink in color and stay under water.  I have read about horse > hair worms but these seem thicker than implied by that description.  Any idea > what these might be or who I might go to with a sample I captured?  Our local > agricultural school is no longer funded to provide county-extension services > to the public and exterminators have never heard of such a thing.  The house > is on septic (soon to switch to sewer), but it seems unlikely that the worms > crawl up the vertical main stack to get to the second floor toilet, bypassing > the one on the first floor.  My thought is that something is entering through > the vent stack and laying eggs in the toilet trap.

It’s not at all unlikely that they’re coming down a vent if you have a tree branch over the roof.  Other than that I can’t say.

Response:

[following up to my own posting]

| I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms | appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do | flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple | of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter. Actually, make that 1/8" diameter…                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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I have an odd problem with a (currently) unoccupied 1960s house.  Worms appear in the upstairs toilet bowl.  The toilet is never used, but I do flush it occasionally to keep to water level up.  The worms are a couple of inches long and about 1/4" in diameter.  They are quite active and seem to respond to light.  The first time I saw this I though it was a fluke (no pun intended) and simply flushed them, adding some bleach.  But a few weeks later when I went to do some more work on the house, they were back.  These are earthworm-pink in color and stay under water.  I have read about horse hair worms but these seem thicker than implied by that description.  Any idea what these might be or who I might go to with a sample I captured?  Our local agricultural school is no longer funded to provide county-extension services to the public and exterminators have never heard of such a thing.  The house is on septic (soon to switch to sewer), but it seems unlikely that the worms crawl up the vertical main stack to get to the second floor toilet, bypassing the one on the first floor.  My thought is that something is entering through the vent stack and laying eggs in the toilet trap.                                 Dan Lanciani                                 .*com

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Question:

How about when sibe mushers call them affectionately our slowberians? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Yes, that may be true but I was rooting for them all the way during the > Iditarod. I definately would like to see all Siberain racing. >  I had one that placed 10th out of 80 qualifiers. > This calls for big congratulations. Especially for your patience. >  I even let Dziwa run loose with the team after she was retired from harness, > as were several others in that line. And it continues a few generations later. > This I can understand. She wants to be with the pack and I think it must break > her heart to see the other dogs harnessing up and she gets left behind in the > kennel. > When I was discussing the breed as a pet I aways asked "if they wanted a 50 > pound siamese cat?" > Again, right on!

Clare and Bandit, Dictator of the World for Life

Response:

> How about when sibe mushers call them affectionately our slowberians? > Yes, that may be true but I was rooting for them all the way during the > Iditarod. I definately would like to see all Siberain racing.

I do not think it matters. Racing in open competition keeps you honest. =) Purebred awards are good, purebred races are good. The ISHC awards program worked well. The SD titles came after I was out of it. As for the Iditarod my ex husband ran it and finished in 1977 and I also bred several dogs that finished in Terry Hinesly’s team in 1990. Pictures of my dogs (if you don’t think I am making this up as I go along) are at: http://www.harborside.com/~laurelt >  I had one that placed 10th out of 80 qualifiers. > This calls for big congratulations. Especially for your patience.

Not at all with that dog. he learned so fast I said he was reading books at night. He was co-owned later with a pro obedience trainer and she says to this day he was the most consistant healing dog she has shown. I did produce the usual covy of sibe clowns in obedience before my Echohawk came along… =) >  I even let Dziwa run loose with the team after she was retired from harness, > as were several others in that line. And it continues a few generations later. > This I can understand. She wants to be with the pack and I think it must break > her heart to see the other dogs harnessing up and she gets left behind in the > kennel.

She had  been a good leader and she would run along with the lead for awhile, but then she would take off on some side road and catch up when she was done looking around. Her brother Dmitri I could let chase birds on the beach and then put him in harness and he would run though the birds and never look at them. Going on walks he would circle back to make sure he did not lose me like a herding dog. Even my Borders don’t do that.  Their two brothers Deska and Dekko I could never have let off leash as they were typical. — Laurel T Terraholm Border Terriers The Oregon Beach Bums http://www.harborside.com/~laurelt

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I agree totally.    Siberians are beautiful, intelligent, loving, affectionate dogs with wanderlust.   They can never be trusted off leash–though they MAY come home eventually, they will not follow along with you and your crowd. we have ours home during the day alone and she’s fine.  we also have an electric fence system and it has been a great answer to the problem of our Spirit running loose all over the neighborhood.

Response:

my husky is home all day and doesn’t get as much exercise as many of you are suggesting.   she’s a real couch potato.

Response:

> Some of the best advice on owning a "Siberian" (the parent club frowns on > them being called sibes!)

Geesh do you get suspended? =) How about when sibe mushers call them affectionately our slowberians? is located at the SHCA site at http://www.shca.org > After 28 years of owning and showing Siberians, trust me……they CANNOT be > let off leash. > You may think yours will be different, IT WON’T!

But the rare individual is OK off leash. Certainly can not plan on it or expect to train it in. I had one that placed 10th out of 80 qualifiers at the gaines obedience clasic (long before they changed the name to Cycle) in Novice and he earned a dog world award from open class obedience. BUT, If he got loose it took a pan of food and the truck to catch him. But one of his brothers, his dam and one out of 3 uncles were trustworthy off leash anywhere, I even let Dziwa run loose with the team after she was retired from harness, as were several others in that line. And it continues a few generations later. > The instinct to run in a Siberian is not because the breed is "wild" and > needs to "run free" as someone stated.  Their desire and ability to run has > been developed to function as a working dog.  Just as some breeds have been > developed to herd, to guard, etc. Siberians have been developed to run. And > this is a fundamental trait of the breed that should not be changed.  You > can’t turn a Chihuahua into a Rottweiler!  Accept the breed as they are and > ask yourself whether or not you can live with that, if not, don’t get a > Siberian.  Good luck!

When I was discussing the breed as a pet I aways asked "if they wanted a 50 pound siamese cat?" — Laurel Terraholm Border Terriers The Oregon Beach Bums

Response:

Some of the best advice on owning a "Siberian" (the parent club frowns on them being called sibes!) is located at the SHCA site at http://www.shca.org After 28 years of owning and showing Siberians, trust me……they CANNOT be let off leash. You may think yours will be different, IT WON’T! The instinct to run in a Siberian is not because the breed is "wild" and needs to "run free" as someone stated.  Their desire and ability to run has been developed to function as a working dog.  Just as some breeds have been developed to herd, to guard, etc. Siberians have been developed to run.  And this is a fundamental trait of the breed that should not be changed.  You can’t turn a Chihuahua into a Rottweiler!  Accept the breed as they are and ask yourself whether or not you can live with that, if not, don’t get a Siberian.  Good luck! Andrea KIVALINA . . . Quality Siberian Huskies http://www.pawtown.com/kivalina RSVP AKC Museum of the Dog Reception http://www.pawtown.com/kivalina/shca.htm No part of the enclosed message may be copied without consent – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > Is there anyone in the the group who give me some info on Siberian Huskies? > I am 20 years old and for many years have always dreamed of owning at least > one (but hopefully a few *smiles*) sibes. I think it is a gorgeous breed and > from what I have read they are wonderful animals. However I’ve also read > that they aren’t suited to everyone. Dogs have always been a part of my life > and my family. I have grown up surrounded by dogs (and a menagerie of other > animals!).  My family has owned a number of mongrels, a Golden retreiver, > and we currently have two miniature smooth haired dachshunds who I love to > bits. But we miss not having a big dog. We are hoping to get a big dog some > time in the near future. We have fallen in love with the liver flat coated > retrievers ( my mums dream dog) and she is hoping that soon we will have a > lovely liver addition to our family. But I am still addicted to Sibes and > hope that in the future I will own this beautiful breed. > One of the main questions I’d like to ask about the breed is with regards to > its tendency to wander. I have read this in a number of books and advice > always seems to suggest that you cannot and should not allow these dogs of > the leash. Is this right or is this just treading carefully? One of the > things I love is being able to let dogs of the leash and see them running > and playing together. All our dogs are allowed of the leash. We are very > careful with them and obviously there are many situations where we do keep > them on the lead i.e at roads, busy traffic, where it is prohibited etc. > Should all sibes be kept on the leash? > Also, I have read some info saying that they shouldn’t be left alone for > long amounts of time as they can get destructive. Obviously this can be true > of any dog but is it more so with sibes? The dog would be left in during the > day as we would all be working full time, although we wouldn’t just have one > dog alone. It would definitely have at least one other dog in the house. I > have been told by a few people that I definitely shouldn’t purchase a dog as > it would be unfair to have it in the house while we are out, but surely > everyone has to work. > I have read all the books, looked up different sites on the net but I would > desperately love to hear from people on the group who have info/advice and > from owners/breeders etc. You can be sure that any dog or animal with me and > my family will be loved and cared for beyond belief. > Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. > Laura

Response:

I have a Siberian husky.  I love her to death.  She was my husband’s and mine first pet.  She thinks that she is human.  I grew up with german shepards. Chelsea is smarter than any GSD I ever owned. This is bad in some ways because although she is incrediable easy to train, she is too smart for her own good.  (Some people find huskey hard to train, because the will chose to not follow your commands!!)  From what I have read, I believe that the wild in huskeys hasn’t been breed out.  (Hopefully never will be, because this is who they are.)  The huskey natural instrict is to be wild and run/roam free.  This makes it extremely difficult to keep fenced in.  Check out different animal adoption webpages.  About 1/3 are at least part huskey.   Chelsea is a small huskey.  She weighs about 40 lbs.  That is all muscle.  She will dig holes under the fence, eat wood pickets.  Jump on the pickets, to loosen the nails, so she can push the picket aside and get out.  She will squeeze through a whole in the fence with just ONE picket loose!!  The have been known to jump/climb over 8 foot fences, with the wire ontop facing into the backyard.  (like around prisons, to keep the prisoners in).   Inside destruction:  If I leave her inside I must raise all the blinds up, so she has a 2′ viewing space, or she will break them, trying to get out.  One time when we were only gone from 2 hours, she ripped on the carpet my our front door.  Then she ripped out the the wood flooring, all the way down to the concrete.  This was all ripped up, 3ft X 4 ft. One time when she got loose, I was trying in vain to catch her.  She loves to play tag.  She would let you get close and then take off again.  I was in the truck, following her, at 70 mph, and she just looked back at me and smiled.  To look at her – to her it was an easy gallop.   Who knows how fast she can really run. I absolutley love her to death.  She woke me up one morning when I was having an allergic reaction.  Saved my life.  A very smart dog. I do have a friend who kept his penned up, in a large pen.  Every morning they would go jogging for an hour.  He didn’t use a leash.  The dog was strickly outside.  He never had any troubles.  Unfortunatly someone posioned his huskey.  I cann’t job, and so we go for an hour walk – about 4.25 miles.  That is not enough work to keep Chelsea out of trouble. If you run then this may be a good dog for you, if not you are in for a lot of headaches.  Try and find a dog that does good off the leash if you are planning on letting play loose.  I often see people with labs, great pyr (I have one and would highly recommend), neffies in the park playing frisbie.   Good luck, Jennifer

Response:

>One of the main questions I’d like to ask about the breed is with regards to >its tendency to wander. I have read this in a number of books and advice >always seems to suggest that you cannot and should not allow these dogs of >the leash. Is this right or is this just treading carefully?

Yes, this is right. > One of the >things I love is being able to let dogs of the leash and see them running >and playing together. All our dogs are allowed of the leash.

You can do this with Sibes, if you have a fenced yard.  Most folks recommend 6′ high, as they are escape artists.  Bury the fence 6" if possible, as they are great diggers.  Some will still be able to climb over, in which case you’ll need an overhang of some sort on the top of the fence.  Mine dig under but don’t climb. > We are very >careful with them and obviously there are many situations where we do keep >them on the lead i.e at roads, busy traffic, where it is prohibited etc. >Should all sibes be kept on the leash?

Again, yes.  You had best not get a Siberian if you are hoping to take it on walks off leash.  There are some Siberians that can be reliable off-leash, *after* months and months of obedience training.  But most Sibe people strongly recommend no off-leash, ever. >Also, I have read some info saying that they shouldn’t be left alone for >long amounts of time as they can get destructive. Obviously this can be true >of any dog but is it more so with sibes? The dog would be left in during the >day as we would all be working full time, although we wouldn’t just have one >dog alone. It would definitely have at least one other dog in the house. I >have been told by a few people that I definitely shouldn’t purchase a dog as >it would be unfair to have it in the house while we are out, but surely >everyone has to work.

Sibes are very social dogs, and they can be destructive.  The answer would be to crate the dog until it is trustworthy in the house alone. Sibes are happier with at least one other dog. >I have read all the books, looked up different sites on the net but I would >desperately love to hear from people on the group who have info/advice and >from owners/breeders etc. You can be sure that any dog or animal with me and >my family will be loved and cared for beyond belief.

Loved and cared for isn’t always enough.  If you don’t intend to keep the dog on leash, don’t get a Siberian Husky. Sally Hennessey

Response:

> Hi, > Is there anyone in the the group who give me some info on Siberian Huskies? > One of the main questions I’d like to ask about the breed is with regards to > its tendency to wander. I have read this in a number of books and advice > always seems to suggest that you cannot and should not allow these dogs of > the leash. Is this right or is this just treading carefully? > Should all sibes be kept on the leash?

My parents own a Husky, and she is one of the sweetest dogs I have ever met, but if she gets half a chance, she’ll be gone before you know it. She bolted once and was found later that day almost five mile away.  So It would be my oppinion that yes, they should always be on a leash if not in a fenced yard or dog park. > Also, I have read some info saying that they shouldn’t be left alone for > long amounts of time as they can get destructive. Obviously this can be true > of any dog but is it more so with sibes?

I don’t know if more so, but Nicky, when not getting enough attention, would chew through the telephone and cable tv wires going into my parents house. > The dog <snipped remainder>

Others in this group are more qualified than me to advise you on the rest of your concerns. My replies are from my own personal experiences and only my oppinions. Hope it helped John Blair Before you buy.

Response:

>Hi,

I think it is a gorgeous breed and >from what I have read they are wonderful animals. However I’ve also read >that they aren’t suited to everyone. But I am still addicted to Sibes and >hope that in the future I will own this beautiful breed. >One of the main questions I’d like to ask about the breed is with regards to >its tendency to wander. I have read this in a number of books and advice >always seems to suggest that you cannot and should not allow these dogs of >the leash. Is this right or is this just treading carefully? One of the >things I love is being able to let dogs of the leash and see them running >and playing together.

 yes, they are very beautiful dogs .. and that is part of the problem .. people get them because of their looks and are not prepared to take care of them .. they run .. do not kid yourself .. they were bred to run .. they love to run .. nothing is more beautiful than a sibe at full steam plowing through snow (quite unlike watching my rottie run) .. they can never be let off leash unless in an enclosed area .. there are always exceptions but do not count on your sibe to be the one .. >Also, I have read some info saying that they shouldn’t be left alone for >long amounts of time as they can get destructive. Obviously this can be true >of any dog but is it more so with sibes

the destruction comes from that fact that bored/ underexercised dogs will find something to amuse themselves with .. sibes being bred to basically run all day need ALOT of exercise .. much more so than many breeds .. so yes, they may be more destructive because they need more exercise and bore more easily than say my "very happy only to run 3 miles a day and then to the couch to sleep" rottie ..

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Hi, Is there anyone in the the group who give me some info on Siberian Huskies? I am 20 years old and for many years have always dreamed of owning at least one (but hopefully a few *smiles*) sibes. I think it is a gorgeous breed and from what I have read they are wonderful animals. However I’ve also read that they aren’t suited to everyone. Dogs have always been a part of my life and my family. I have grown up surrounded by dogs (and a menagerie of other animals!).  My family has owned a number of mongrels, a Golden retreiver, and we currently have two miniature smooth haired dachshunds who I love to bits. But we miss not having a big dog. We are hoping to get a big dog some time in the near future. We have fallen in love with the liver flat coated retrievers ( my mums dream dog) and she is hoping that soon we will have a lovely liver addition to our family. But I am still addicted to Sibes and hope that in the future I will own this beautiful breed. One of the main questions I’d like to ask about the breed is with regards to its tendency to wander. I have read this in a number of books and advice always seems to suggest that you cannot and should not allow these dogs of the leash. Is this right or is this just treading carefully? One of the things I love is being able to let dogs of the leash and see them running and playing together. All our dogs are allowed of the leash. We are very careful with them and obviously there are many situations where we do keep them on the lead i.e at roads, busy traffic, where it is prohibited etc. Should all sibes be kept on the leash? Also, I have read some info saying that they shouldn’t be left alone for long amounts of time as they can get destructive. Obviously this can be true of any dog but is it more so with sibes? The dog would be left in during the day as we would all be working full time, although we wouldn’t just have one dog alone. It would definitely have at least one other dog in the house. I have been told by a few people that I definitely shouldn’t purchase a dog as it would be unfair to have it in the house while we are out, but surely everyone has to work. I have read all the books, looked up different sites on the net but I would desperately love to hear from people on the group who have info/advice and from owners/breeders etc. You can be sure that any dog or animal with me and my family will be loved and cared for beyond belief. Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. Laura

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Question:

Can I put a glue-down wood floor on Gypcrete underlayment?  I know nails can’t be used, but I see glue-down wood flooring in Home Depot and the glue instructions say it it can be used on concrete. Second question:  I notice that products like Pergo (‘floating floor’ system) can have a layer of firm foam put down first to soften one’s step and provide a little sound or noise reduction.  I assume that these dampening materials can’t be used with a glue-down floor (it’d need gluing both sides of the dampening layer).  True?  Or maybe the glue and wood itself already provide dampening like that, so I should even bother with this thought? Thanks, Craig

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A "floating floor" (like Pergo) is prone to having the "snare drum effect". Every little step causes it to rattle against the minor imperfections of the subfloor. The foam pad under it significantly reduces/eliminates this problem. This problem should not exist in a "glue down" floor installation. There really isn’t a need to "pad" wood floors, even the hardest floor will flex quite a bit, but if you are putting a hard surface in where there formely was carpet it will be MUCH louder. You should really look closely at the total cost of the floating floor vs. the glue down. Unless you really must have the glue down I would think the floating floor might offer some real advantages on prices and speed of install. * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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> Can I put a glue-down wood floor on Gypcrete underlayment?  I know > nails can’t be used, but I see glue-down wood flooring in Home Depot > and the glue instructions say it it can be used on concrete.

  I am not a tradesman, just made some research before laying down laminate on my gypcrete floor.   Somehow, people in the trade seem very reluctant to glue anything to gypcrete, which I find strange since Maxxon (the people who make gypcrete, http://www.maxxon.com ) say it can be done, and parts of my condo with gypcrete floor has tiles on it (the laundry, the bathroom). I suppose it can be done, with care.   The main difficulty might be that you want a flat uncracked surface, so you will have to prepare the floor first. i dug out taht Mapei ( http://www.mapei.com ) makes a floor preparation product called Planitex UNS, specially for gypsum based floors. To my chagrin, it is not available in Canada.   So, since I am not gluing anything to the floor, and am putting the Ikea’s equivalent of SilentStep and the 3 mm foam under the laminate, I figured I could use a standard leveling mix, Mapei’s Plani/Patch. It seems to be OK in the limited area I am testing right now.   By the way, Ikea’s Tundra flooring is Can$1.95 sq/ft these days. It seems to be the equivalent of Pergo Classic in finish choices, but only 7mm thick like Pergo Living. But the price is almost 1/3 less. > Second question:  I notice that products like Pergo (‘floating floor’ > system) can have a layer of firm foam put down first to soften one’s > step and provide a little sound or noise reduction.  I assume that > these dampening materials can’t be used with a glue-down floor (it’d > need gluing both sides of the dampening layer).  True?  Or maybe the > glue and wood itself already provide dampening like that, so I should > even bother with this thought?

  Again, I was afraid to glue wood planks over the gypcrete. I was concerned that any floor movement or crack that develops in the gypcrete would show in the flooring. And if I had to remove the wood, I could not do so without ripping the Gypcrete apart.   One place said they could glue a foam first to the gypcrete, then the wood on top of that. Another solution suggested to me was to first lay 1/2" plywood on the gypcrete (how to attach it though?), then glue the wood planks on that … About Can$9.00 sq/ft   Maxxon has something called DuraCap, which puts a hard finish on top of the gypcrete. They could also redo the whole floor, adding their soundproofing carpet, would add about Can$5.00 a square foot to my project. But I would have to move out first, this needs to dry out.   At any rate, I figured the laminate was not much more expensive than a good quality carpet, which I am replacing, and that if worst came to worst, I could remove it without damaging the subfloor and put carpet back in.   By the way, remember than in a condo, the gypcrete is there to meet condo regulations and fire regulations also. If you remove it, make sure you replace it with something that is approved by both.   Good luck!

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> >>  By the way, remember than in a condo, the gypcrete is there to >> meet condo regulations and fire regulations also. > Not necessarily.  Gypcrete is used as a topping to level uneven > existing floors in renovation work.  Also to level out rough or > cambered floors in new work using precast plank.  May not have > anything to do with fire, etc.

  Things will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. My condo has a wood structure, the gypcrete cannot be removed without the directors approval, and anything replacing it must meet soundproofing requirements and fire regulations.   The 1.5" of gypcrete adds mass to the floor, and reduces sound transmission as well as impact sound. Put a plush carpet on top, a well designed ceiling below, and you can almost shout without anyone hearing in other appartments.   The fire regulations I understand less well, but they are there. I’d rather not mess with that. Seems to be that the fire will propagate slower, so you have a better chance of evacuating, plus the firemen have a better chance of limiting the damage.   The Canadian Mortgage And Housing Corporation has a whole slew of litterature about that, at http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca   Hope this helps

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Question:

I am going to be changing the floors in my kitchen and living room which butt up against each other.  I will not be able to do both projects at the same time and I was wondering which one should come first.  I was planning to use ceramic tile in the kitchen and a prefinished engineered wood floor in the living room. Currently I have linoleum in the kitchen and carpet in the living room.  I don’t know if it matters but there is a concrete slab underneath. Thanks! Keith

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My basic rule in scheduling remodels for clients is the messiest stuff as early in th project as possible. Ceramic installs are far messier than wood flooring. In addition ceramic is more durable than wood and I’d hate to have a less durable surface getting traked on my workers… Good Luck! * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

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Question:

I have some pecan lumber that I am considering using for kitchen & hall flooring.  Does anyone have pecan flooring or know how it holds up?

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I don’t know how it would hold up as a floor but it would be beautiful as long as it lasted.  My question to you where did you get it?  I’m in Auburn all the time and would love to get some if you bought it locally.   thanks, mit > I have some pecan lumber that I am considering using for kitchen & hall > flooring.  Does anyone have pecan flooring or know how it holds up?

–

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> I have some pecan lumber that I am considering using for kitchen & hall > flooring.  Does anyone have pecan flooring or know how it holds up?

While fairly expensive, pecan is sold in wood flooring, usually as an "engineered" wood strip(3/8").. You can also buy 3/4" solid but prices will be up there with cherry… That’s awful pretty wood for a floor….

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-> I have some pecan lumber that I am considering using for kitchen & hall -> flooring.  Does anyone have pecan flooring or know how it holds up? Consider yourself quite lucky.  Pecan is up there with hickory in terms of hardness – it practically makes maple look like yellow pine.  It is *MUCH* harder than oak.  It may be tough to install though, due to the the toughness of the wood.  I would consider myself quite fortunate to have enough pecan to do some serious flooring with.  About the only semi-common wood I know that is used for flooring sometimes and is also tougher is the Brazilian cherry. — John S. Cronin                             phone: (404) 894-6164 Office of Information Technology Operations and Engineering 0715 Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, Georgia, 30332-0715

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Pecan is a tremendous wood to use for a floor.  Back in the old days of the early 1900s pecan was used extensively throughout Texas and Louisiana (and probably throughout the South in pecan’s natural range) as the choice floor for gym floors in schools.  they took tremendous abuse and still held up. I know of one school in East Texas that has played on the same pecan floor for more than 40 years. Ken Brazos Mesquite Company > I have some pecan lumber that I am considering using for kitchen & hall > flooring.  Does anyone have pecan flooring or know how it holds up?

– Brazos Mesquite Company is the source of everything on the mesquite— mesquite and pecan cooking woods, finely figured mesquite burls, bbq smoking woods and barbecue woods, logs, wholesale and retail sales , chunks, chips, sawdust, and smoking wheels, lumber, sculpture blocks, turning blanks, and osage orange lumber and  blocks.  We are also the source of the only book on the mesquite, The Magnificent Mesquite and also have available a small mesquite cookbook, "Where There’s Smoke" written by Jean Craig.  Brazos is also the place to share barbequing and camping experiences, your best barbeque sauce or favorite restaurant, or for just telling others about your mesquite experiences. Get answers to your mesquite questions from a mesquite expert with 27 years experience in mesquite utilization assistance and research. Home – Http://www.brazosmesquite.com The Magnificent Mesquite Http://www.brazosmesquite.com/TheMagnificentMesquite.htm Mesquite burls Http://www.brazosmesquite.com/mesquiteburls.htm Tele:  409-229-7868 P.O. Box 9009, College Station, Texas 77842

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-> I don’t know how it would hold up as a floor but it would be beautiful as -> long as it lasted. It would last a LONG time.  Pecan is literally is tough as hickory, which means it is MUCH tougher than oak or even maple.  My dream hardwood floor would probably be pecan, if cost were no object, and I approach this kind of thing as much from an engineering point of view as from an aesthetic point of view.  Pecan fills both needs quite well when it comes to flooring. — John S. Cronin                             phone: (404) 894-6164 Office of Information Technology Operations and Engineering 0715 Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, Georgia, 30332-0715

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->> ->> I have some pecan lumber that I am considering using for kitchen & hall ->> flooring.  Does anyone have pecan flooring or know how it holds up? -> While fairly expensive, pecan is sold in wood flooring, usually as an -> "engineered" wood strip(3/8").. You can also buy 3/4" solid but prices -> will be up there with cherry… That’s awful pretty wood for a floor…. It would be much better than cherry for a floor though – much tougher than oak or maple. — John S. Cronin                             phone: (404) 894-6164 Office of Information Technology Operations and Engineering 0715 Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, Georgia, 30332-0715

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True, the denser woods have more tendency to move given everything else being equal, but the old gyms that I was referring to were never air-conditioned, even to this day.  Annual ranges from 8 degrees with 15% humidity to 100 degrees with 80% humidity never seemed to give the pecan floors any appreciable gaps. Condition the wood to your areas outside EMC and there is enough give in the wood to take most all conditional changes. Ken > Isn’t hickory (and therefore, I assume, pecan) a rather unstable wood? > Moves a lot with humidity changes, I mean?  One consideration to keep in > mind.  If you’re not controlling the humidity levels in your home year > ’round, you may see substantial gaps opening between boards in the dry > seasons?  –Steve

– Brazos Mesquite Company-mesquite and pecan cooking woods, finely figured mesquite burls, and the source of the only book on the mesquite, The Magnificent Mesquite. Home – Http://www.brazosmesquite.com

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