Consumer Homes.

Question:

I have a new house in texas which takes more than 30 minutes for each degree of heating. When I leave I set the temperature at 66 and change to 72 when I come back. It takes 3 hours to rise 6 degrees. Is this normal? Is there any standard on how long it should take to heat up a residential house?

Response:

digital set back thermostats allow TWO hours. as far as I know there is no standard. the codes relate to holding a temperature in the presence of a certain outside temperature.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a new house in texas which takes more than 30 minutes for each > degree of heating. When I leave I set the temperature at 66 and change > to 72 when I come back. It takes 3 hours to rise 6 degrees. Is this > normal? > Is there any standard on how long it should take to heat up a > residential house?

Response:

>I have a new house in texas which takes more than 30 minutes for each >degree of heating. When I leave I set the temperature at 66 and change >to 72 when I come back. It takes 3 hours to rise 6 degrees. Is this >normal?

Sounds slowish. Seems to me this mostly depends on the furnace power and thermal mass of the house. Lower outdoor temps and less insulation would also slow warming. A 100K Btu/h furnace might initially warm a 10K Btu/F house at 100K Btu/h/(10K Btu/F) = 10 F/h. Concrete has about 25 Btu/F-ft^3, 1/2" drywall has about 1 Btu/F-ft^2, wood is about the same as water by weight, 1 Btu/F-lb… Baseboard or forced air seems better than hydronic slabs, since you can feel fairly warm in the warm air, even before the house surfaces warm up. Nick

Response:

This might be normal for a heat-pump system in cold weather.  What type of heat is it?  What is the BTU rating? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I have a new house in texas which takes more than 30 minutes for each > degree of heating. When I leave I set the temperature at 66 and change > to 72 when I come back. It takes 3 hours to rise 6 degrees. Is this > normal? > Is there any standard on how long it should take to heat up a > residential house?

Response:

That delay is not only normal,but the reason maintenace does a double take on last minute meetings in large buildings.As a side note…the dome in Houston back in the 60’s when they first turned on the air conditioning not only had the time delay.But hot air holds more water than cool air and domes have lots of  air,so it showered in the dome.Later years dome and skyscraper designers step instead of going directly to temperature to correct  humidity problems. That problem of your’s can be an asset in terms of heat/cold storage if you go at it properly.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> digital set back thermostats allow TWO hours. > as far as I know there is no standard. the codes > relate to holding a temperature in the presence > of a certain outside temperature. > I have a new house in texas which takes more than 30 minutes for each > degree of heating. When I leave I set the temperature at 66 and change > to 72 when I come back. It takes 3 hours to rise 6 degrees. Is this > normal? > Is there any standard on how long it should take to heat up a > residential house?

Response:

>I have a new house in texas which takes more than 30 minutes for each >degree of heating. When I leave I set the temperature at 66 and change >to 72 when I come back. It takes 3 hours to rise 6 degrees. Is this >normal?

This could be quite normal for your situation.  I have a ground-source heat pump that I just got installed in Michigan, and I have experienced 2.5 to 3 degrees per hour warm-up rate. Frankly, the warm-up rate is a measure of excess heating capacity. Your heating plant is probably sized to handle the worst-case conditions – very cold and high blowing winds.  Under these conditions, you may have no excess capacity.  You can just barely maintain a given temperature and there is nothing left over for an increase in temperature.  On the other hand, if the outside air temperature is only a little chilly and the winds are calm, your heating plant has more excess capacity and you can expect a much faster rise in temperature. Before the days of well-insulated houses, the total heat loss of the house was high compared to the specific heat of the contents (building materials and air).  Therefore it took a lot more heat to maintain a steady state condition.  But now that some houses are super-insulated, that has opened the door to downsizing the heating plant capacity.  The specific heat of the contents remains the same, so the warm-up rate is reduced.  It makes it harder to benefit from set-back thermostats, but then a super-insulated house benefits all the time from being super-insulated, so the loss is not really a loss. -Robert Scott  Ypsilanti, Michigan (Reply through newsgroups, not by direct e-mail.  Automatic reply address is fake to prevent SPAM.)

Response:

>…now that some houses are super-insulated, that has opened the door >to downsizing the heating plant capacity.  The specific heat of the >contents remains the same, so the warm-up rate is reduced.

We might try to reduce the heat capacity of a new house. A typical 2,400 ft^2 house might have 4,000 ft^2 of 1/2" drywall with 2K Btu/F of thermal capacitance as well as 2,400 ft^2 of flooring. We might substitute SIPs or thin wood paneling or foil-faced foamboard or thin sheet metal with foamboard underneath. Might have a Japanese feel. What’s left? A few thousand pounds of furniture and appliances? Selected for low heat capacity, or insulated from room air. Furniture-Lite ™? Hanging chairs and beanbags and futons would be fine. Waterbeds would be OK, if well-insulated, with lots of padding above and foamboard below. A house with 6,400ft^2 of R32 external surfaces and thermal conductance G = 200 Btu/h-F and a 2-hour time constant needs C = 2G = 400 Btu/F, max, like a single 55 gallon drum full of water. Doesn’t sound easy. >It makes it harder to benefit from set-back thermostats, but then >a super-insulated house benefits all the time from being super-insulated, >so the loss is not really a loss.

It’s a real loss, IMO. Another way to reduce it, theoretically-speaking, would be to air-condition a house on a winter night, pumping the stored heat into a tank (heating say 2,000 gallons of water 40 F) and pumping the heat back into the house in the morning… Nick

Response:

Question:

Thanks Derek on the info and e-mail.   This is something that is going to take me some time deciding on now that I realize that I have just scratched the surface.  I really thought that there was not too much difference in the stoves but oh was I wrong. It is to bad that they did not give brand names on the stoves that they had the trouble with in the articles below. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Very interesting reports on an outdoor boiler! >http://www.woodheat.org/technology/outbobpen.htm >http://www.woodheat.org/technology/outbobpen2.htm >Consider these: >http://www.pacificwesterninc.com/beforeyoubuy/energymodel.html >http://hearth.com/tarm/hs.html > I am looking to install a hotwater woodfurnace.   It will attatch to > my  forced air furnace and also heat my water for washing. I am > looking at the centralboiler brand now. Any suggestions as to better > brands, what to look out for and shuch??? > Thanks > Ray

Response:

Very interesting reports on an outdoor boiler! http://www.woodheat.org/technology/outbobpen.htm http://www.woodheat.org/technology/outbobpen2.htm Consider these: http://www.pacificwesterninc.com/beforeyoubuy/energymodel.html http://hearth.com/tarm/hs.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am looking to install a hotwater woodfurnace.   It will attatch to > my  forced air furnace and also heat my water for washing. I am > looking at the centralboiler brand now. Any suggestions as to better > brands, what to look out for and shuch??? > Thanks > Ray

Response:

my personal favorite is the HAHSA and the Central Boiler. http://www.webconx.com/wood_heat.htm — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport – http://24.190.106.81:8383/2000/humanpower.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Very interesting reports on an outdoor boiler! > http://www.woodheat.org/technology/outbobpen.htm > http://www.woodheat.org/technology/outbobpen2.htm > Consider these: > http://www.pacificwesterninc.com/beforeyoubuy/energymodel.html > http://hearth.com/tarm/hs.html > I am looking to install a hotwater woodfurnace.   It will attatch to > my  forced air furnace and also heat my water for washing. I am > looking at the centralboiler brand now. Any suggestions as to better > brands, what to look out for and shuch??? > Thanks > Ray

Response:

Firetube boiler. But I haven’t tested it yet.. http://lakeweb.net/images/boiler1.jpg Heavenly view http://lakeweb.net/images/boiler2.jpg Best, Dan. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Has no one had any experiance with these? >I am looking to install a hotwater woodfurnace.   It will attatch to >my  forced air furnace and also heat my water for washing. I am >looking at the centralboiler brand now. Any suggestions as to better >brands, what to look out for and shuch??? >Thanks >Ray

Response:

Greetings,     Just curious on what you used for the tubes and did you roll them in place before seal welding them. It looks like a good job…  Better than what I see in the field in some places. Bob Hauser Jr.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Firetube boiler. > But I haven’t tested it yet.. > http://lakeweb.net/images/boiler1.jpg > Heavenly view > http://lakeweb.net/images/boiler2.jpg > Best, Dan.

Response:

Hi Bob, The complement should go to my son. He is shop manager at: http://predatorsandcars.com/Pages/homepage.html He has also started his own business. This was stock tubing, seem welded. As it is used in compression, I couldn’t see using stronger. I don’t plan on running this over 200 lbs/inch^2. It has the equivalent cross section of a four inch flu. I plane to hang the whole thing in the firebox so the full surface area will collect heat. My outside shop is 1200 feet but I’m figuring I can warm it quickly. I’ll use a surplus evaporator from a walk in refrigerator. The preliminary test, by running hot water through it told me it would move some serious heat. I’ll be putting thermal solar on the house using phase change storage. The boiler can supplement that also. I’ll put it across the drive between the house and shop. My test collector: http://lakeweb.net/images/solar.jpg Looks like I can build it for about $8 a square foot. Best, Dan. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Greetings, >     Just curious on what you used for the tubes and did you roll them in > place before seal welding them. > It looks like a good job…  Better than what I see in the field in some > places. > Bob Hauser Jr. >Firetube boiler. >But I haven’t tested it yet.. >http://lakeweb.net/images/boiler1.jpg >Heavenly view >http://lakeweb.net/images/boiler2.jpg >Best, Dan.

Response:

I am looking to install a hotwater woodfurnace.   It will attatch to my  forced air furnace and also heat my water for washing. I am looking at the centralboiler brand now. Any suggestions as to better brands, what to look out for and shuch??? Thanks Ray

Response:

Has no one had any experiance with these? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I am looking to install a hotwater woodfurnace.   It will attatch to >my  forced air furnace and also heat my water for washing. I am >looking at the centralboiler brand now. Any suggestions as to better >brands, what to look out for and shuch??? >Thanks >Ray

Response:

Question:

I am interested in using solar methods to heat my home. I am looking into the Solarwall at this point. I am thinking of installing some kind of mass storage in the basement of my home but don’t know if it’s practical. Then again "practical" is not the highest priority, fun is. But, then again, practical is a consideration. Solarwall suggests not doing mass storage with small applications but I wonder if storage might be more practical given my rather mild climate. I have Nick Pine’s plan and am studying it. I have a wood frame home with 850 sq. foot on the main floor and an approximately 650 foot below grade basement. My thought is to vent the Solarwall into basement space since it is (unintentionally – that’s where the furnace is) heated. I can only fit 4 panels comfortably on my south-south/east facing wall. (Any more than that and I’d have to get my wife’s permission to move a window. Now, that’s NOT practical.) Is this a somewhat feasible setup?  Any feedback would be appreciated. — Carl Levin Portland, Or.

Response:

Hi Carl, The reason Solarwall doesn’t make their heating systems for homes is because of the large amount of south facing exterior wall square footage that’s needed to generate enough heat. Nearly all their installations are for very large buildings, and they aren’t cheap. They tried home heating but found it was not practical unless the home had very large southern walls. A much cheaper and more practical solar air heater would be a solar forced air heating panel like these: http://www.cleardomesolar.com We’ve found that a well-insultated home that does not have a massive amount of windows can retain a lot of the heat generated on a sunny day with a solar air heater. Thermal storage with moving hot air is better than passive solar, when most of the storage takes place only on surfaces touched by the sun. When you raise the room temps to the low 70’s, it will still be in the mid 60’s by bed time, when the conventional heat can provide overnight lower rooms temperatures at a lower cost. -Deris

Response:

According to the Solarwall website, they do sell their panels for homes….. and at considerably lower price than cleardomesolar. DOE website claims high efficiency with improved air circulation. I’d sure like to get a diversity of opinion about this. I am shooting in the dark. I am not an engineer, I am a social worker.

Response:

Engineering ly the idea is sound.  Course it is so simple that you could probably make one from stuff you buy from home depot for even less. Bill Roosa

Response:

>The reason Solarwall doesn’t make their heating systems for homes is >because of the large amount of south facing exterior wall square >footage that’s needed to generate enough heat.

That might work better with "a transparent collector" with a dark window screen mesh under exterior glazing that dims but doesn’t obscure the view through the windows. >They tried home heating but found it was not practical unless the home >had very large southern walls.

And their standard systems use 100% outdoor air, with no glazing, so the collected air is cooler than a collector with glazing and recirculated air. >A much cheaper and more practical solar air heater would be a solar >forced air heating panel like these: http://www.cleardomesolar.com

Derris, you are an ignorant arrogant turd with your spam, spam, spam… >We’ve found that a well-insultated home that does not have a massive >amount of windows can retain a lot of the heat generated on a sunny >day with a solar air heater…

Only if the home is unusually well-insultated, with an unusually large amount of thermal mass and thermal mass surface. Nick

Response:

>A much cheaper and more practical solar air heater would be a solar >forced air heating panel like these: http://www.cleardomesolar.com >-Deris

Ya know,    I built 4 solar air heaters measuring 4×8 in size, dimpled aluminum absorber panels, aluminum external skin, 110 F snap disc fan switches, 495 cfm fans, polycarbonate glazing for each set of panels and mounted them on my south wall, genarating approx 130-140 F output over a 7 hour period. And to think, all this for less than the cost of one of your large solar air heaters. Makes me wonder. M Russon

Response:

Carl- You might try to go ahead and contact Conserval directly about the Solarwall – they’re friendly.  Competitors are not always perfectly candid. Conserval can fabricate home systems.  In Japan, we are selling residential Solarwall systems using as little as 2 sq. m., (these will effectively heat one room) generating heat of up to 60 degrees celsius at the duct with outdoor temperatures around zero – room temps are maintained around 20 deg. C.  The key is that for these high heat/low air speed systems, you have to glaze them in order to prevent wind from taking the heat off the surface of the panel (the glass has no heating function otherwise – high air volume systems need no glazing because the heat is moved into the building too quickly).  The systems are relatively inexpensive (paybacks faster than any other solar system I’ve ever heard of), simple and require little or no maintenance.  You even get fresh air in the house. The Solarwall panel absorbs heat like no other method we’ve ever seen, and it’s patented.  You can’t get it from any other source (we import from Conserval’s plant in Buffalo, NY) -Kurt Vogel By the way, Solarwall is an active solar system, not passive.  It comes equipped with a fan to move the heat inside. In Japan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> According to the Solarwall website, they do sell their panels for homes….. > and at considerably lower price than cleardomesolar. DOE website claims high > efficiency with improved air circulation. I’d sure like to get a diversity > of opinion about this. I am shooting in the dark. I am not an engineer, I am > a social worker.

Response:

Hi Nick, Temper, temper, temper! Can we pleeeze stick to the subject at hand? I thought this was an "alt.solar.thermal" group, not a "nasty.name.calling" group.  I always appreciate your responses because they always give me and others something to laugh about. If you’re not providing a three page list of confusing calculations for what should be a simple one sentence answer, your’re calling someone nasty, vindictive names that seem more fitting for yourself! Grow up! I discovered long ago that you always call other people names that match your own personality best.  I’m choosing not to be angry at your response and expect to laugh even louder when you rant and rave at the next unknowing person that doesn’t seem to agree with your style of thinking. As many other people before me have suggested, please double your dose of anti-stress pills and start taking some anger management training. Maybe you should consider canning some of your anger energy and selling it to the grid. We could all save a lot on our utilities and not have to read your negative, demeaning dribble any more! Please take a deep breath and have a nice day. Deris

Response:

I’m glad you wondered how you can build 4 of your heating panels for the price of one of our Exterior ClearDome Solar forced air panels. Here’s a short answer: Labor, taxes, design, materials, performance, testing, consultants, quality control, durability, research and development, marketing, sales, and numerous other costs of running a business. We are running a business, producing solar forced air heaters and solar cooking reflectors that you’ll eventually find in large stores and catalogs. (you can find them now in the Jade Mountain catalog). We aren’t making these as a hobby or a science project. They are top quality, well-built heating appliances that are made to last a lifetime. They are presently hand made by professionals, not mass-produced on an assembly line. We are planning to mass produce them when the market indicates there are enough customers that will solar heat their home. That’s when the price will drop and more people will be able to afford more than one. And, you get what you pay for. Compare the price of a Volkwagen to the price of a Rolls Royce. Both cars have four wheels, an engine and a frame. They’ll both get you where you want to go. After that, there is a considerable difference in quality, design, materials, feel, dependability, speed, and on and on. Our panels are made with custom extruded, very strong aluminum frames that are not painted, so they will probably outlast their owners. They have 8 mm double-walled polycarbonate panels front and back, guaranteed for at least 10 years. The interior design is very important and different from most other air heating panels. I won’t tell you why they are different because it’s taken many years to find the best combination of insulation, air flows, air volume, vent sizes and positions, heat levels and other important factors that make our panels perform better than most of the very few that are professionally built and sold in the world. They are only half the weight of most other panels and generate more heat and air volume, so they are more efficient and made to easily move without causing damage. They can also be used as solar hot water panels. Our first attempt at "affordable solar heating" is our new 2×4 interior window mounted solar forced air heater that only costs $199. Mass produced, the price could drop by 1/3. They are the first of their type anywhere. When you consider the price of all other solar related products such as solar PV and solar water heating panels, solar thermal air is by far the lease expensive, least complicated and most efficient.   One of our $500, 2×4 exterior heating panels will generate as much usable hot forced air as 8-10 PV panels costing $8,000-$10,000, installed. Solar thermal air is the least promoted, used or even understood of the three major solar energy products. We’re planning to change that and make solar air heating more usable for everyone, not just rich people. All that takes money and lots of energy and promotion. I admire those like yourself that have the ability to design, aquire the right parts and assemble their own hot air panels.  You’ve discoved the joy of pure solar energy just as we have. We need more individuals like yourself to "spread the word" about anything that uses renewable energy. It helps everyone and our earth. The more ideas shared and compared, the faster the world will learn of our passion, and the quicker we will all benefit. Keep up the good work! -Deris

Response:

Hi Deris, Just a few notes here from a Canadian self-appointed mediator: – Please quote the message (or at least portions) you’re commenting on. Makes it much easier for the rest of us to know just what you’re talking about. – I agree that name-calling is not helpful for having a constructive conversation, which is what we all want this newsgroup for.  Calling Nick’s frequent and freely given help a "three page list of confusing calculations" does not seem much different from name-calling. – Since you run a business and have commercial interest, i think you should be careful to tread lightly.  Some people will mistrust you no matter what, but all of us have legitimate reservations about accepting advice from a person with a financial interest. I’m pretty sure that leading by example works better than leading through aggravation.  If you need to vent, talk to your wife, find a friend, or even send me an e-mail, but don’t post it on the newsgroup. Greetings from Ontario, where I sure wish we had some sun in our cold months! Regards, Bert Menkveld

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Nick, > Temper, temper, temper! Can we pleeeze stick to the subject at hand? I > thought this was an "alt.solar.thermal" group, not a > "nasty.name.calling" group.  I always appreciate your responses > because they always give me and others something to laugh about. If > you’re not providing a three page list of confusing calculations for > what should be a simple one sentence answer, your’re calling someone > nasty, vindictive names that seem more fitting for yourself! > Grow up! > I discovered long ago that you always call other people names that > match your own personality best.  I’m choosing not to be angry at your > response and expect to laugh even louder when you rant and rave at the > next unknowing person that doesn’t seem to agree with your style of > thinking. As many other people before me have suggested, please double > your dose of anti-stress pills and start taking some anger management > training. > Maybe you should consider canning some of your anger energy and > selling it to the grid. We could all save a lot on our utilities and > not have to read your negative, demeaning dribble any more! > Please take a deep breath and have a nice day. > Deris

Response:

>Here’s a short answer: >Labor, taxes, design, materials, performance, testing, consultants, >quality control, durability, research and development, marketing, >sales, and numerous other costs of running a business.

I’m no stranger to these items since we market and sell products we manufacture and started to manufacture 24 years ago. We currently test with underwriters labratories and warnock hersey. The average cost to certify and test one appliance we make cost between 100,000 to 125,000 dollars U.S.. We spend an average of 100,000 to 125,000 per year in marketing costs. Our "costs" to run this business must generate 300,000 per month to stay afloat. As you can see, i understand your point. >We are running a business, producing solar forced air heaters and >solar cooking reflectors that you’ll eventually find in large stores >and catalogs. (you can find them now in the Jade Mountain catalog).

We also market nationwide, east to west coast. >We aren’t making these as a hobby or a science project. They are top >quality, well-built heating appliances that are made to last a >lifetime. They are presently hand made by professionals, >not mass-produced on an assembly line.

I would consider myself a professional at what i do. We also market top quality products built by "professionals". >And, you get what you pay for. Compare the price of a Volkwagen to the >price of a Rolls Royce. Both cars have four wheels, an engine and a >frame. They’ll both get you where you want to go. After that, there is >a considerable difference in quality, design, materials, feel, >dependability, speed, and on and on.

Perhaps we buy from the same suppliers? ) >Our panels are made with custom extruded, very strong aluminum frames >that are not painted, so they will probably outlast their owners.

As will mine. > The interior design is very >important and different from most other air heating panels.

Filament absorbers i guess. >Our first attempt at "affordable solar heating" is our new 2×4 >interior window mounted solar forced air heater that only costs $199. >Mass produced, the price could drop by 1/3. They are the first of >their type anywhere.

Marketing again…. >Solar thermal air is the least promoted, used or even understood of >the three major solar energy products. We’re planning to change that >and make solar air heating more usable for everyone, not just rich >people. All that takes money and lots of energy and promotion.

Been there…..still do it. >I admire those like yourself that have the ability to design, aquire >the right parts and assemble their own hot air panels.

Like i said…..we probably buy from the same suppliers…:o) >The more ideas >shared and compared, the faster the world will learn of our passion, >and the quicker we will all benefit.

some more than others i suppose…..but marketing in a news group with a specific financial interest is still something that might have a backlash effect if you keep it up long enough. I admire your efforts in marketing and selling a product, since i do it too. But i’m not going to plug it here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->-Deris

Response:

Question:

I have posted two messages in the last month and got the best answers!  Thanks for the help. My new question is something that sounds like a no-brainer but I thought I should ask it anyway.  Situation – the same 30+ year old house.  When we bought it, the carpet was around 20+ years old.  No kidding.  Anyway, we tore it up and found raw hardwoods underneath that we sanded, and refinished.  Now the floors are great but boy are they cold!  There is crawlspace underneath the area.  Is the solution to go under the crawlspace and tack up insulation?  If so, what type insulation?  Should I just use a staple gun?  Any other advice would of course be appreciated! Thanks, Tom

Response:

Now you know why they carpeted…. But seriously- 1. Close the crawlspace vents in winter (making sure the furnace and water heater have somewhere to draw from, if they are in an adjoining basement or something.) 2. Install vapor barrier, if not present. Make sure to fix any damp (or formerly damp) spots first, or you will get things growing under there. 3. Insulate inside of  foundation walls, all the way down to the footer, with 2" or 3" rigid foam. Also do the inside of the rim joist above the plate- a spot often missed. 4. All of the above is cheap, and may be enough. If not, insulate between the joists, using whatever looks cheapest/least painful to install from the insulation place. Although it looks wrong, vapor barrier on insulation goes on top side, just like it faces the inside of the walls upstairs. They sell these cute little pointy rods that poke into the joists to hold the batts in place. They also sell fully wrapped batts that are a lot less nasty to handle on your back in the dirt or sliding around on the plastic. Dealer can tell you the recommended R value for your area, and probably provide a how-to pamphlet. It ain’t rocket science. 5. Before going through the above, get an estimate on having it installed. If you have good crawlspace access, it could be cheaper than you think. Only you can decide your budget/misery equation. It ain’t fun work, and pros make it look easy. They’ll knock it out in a day or so, while it will take you several, to get the hang of it. aem sends…

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have posted two messages in the last month and got the best answers! >  Thanks for the help. > My new question is something that sounds like a no-brainer but I > thought I should ask it anyway.  Situation – the same 30+ year old > house.  When we bought it, the carpet was around 20+ years old.  No > kidding.  Anyway, we tore it up and found raw hardwoods underneath > that we sanded, and refinished.  Now the floors are great but boy are > they cold!  There is crawlspace underneath the area.  Is the solution > to go under the crawlspace and tack up insulation?  If so, what type > insulation?  Should I just use a staple gun?  Any other advice would > of course be appreciated! > Thanks, Tom

Response:

Question:

Ok, here is what I have… A 8ftx10ft elevated (8ft) generator shed with a 48inch porch that I need to sound dampen as much as economically possible. It has a 3×4 plywood floor unfinished and 5/8 RBB plywood siding. I have 8 inch I beams in the ceiling with a trolley that allows raising and lowering the genset to the ground by pushing it along the trolley to the outside and using a chainfall. I want to support the generator at a comfortable working height on a wooden platform.The roof is 3×4 plywood with metal roofing fastened to the top with screws. The diesel generator has a1/2 inch steel plate platform. I need ideas about what to place between the steel base of the generator and the wooden platform to dampen vibration/noise transmission. I also need suggestions about the insulation, sound dampening, etc for the walls,ceiling and subfloor. I have not finished the inside walls, subfloor bottom or ceiling yet so I am open to wonderful ideas from the group. The generator is water cooled and I will cut a opening away from the cabin for the radiator to vent to the outside through. I will install a furnace fan below the generator shed to bring cooling air into the shed via a wooden duct. I will also have a exhaust gas heat exchanger I found a used marine heat exchanger that only needs a couple of ells welded to it to route the exhaust gas through. It will be easy to brush clean and really easy to connect. I will replace the rubber gashets with durabla gaskets in it. This will provide a secondary method of  heating the hot water for the cabin. A battery box, inverter,and propane hot water heater will be located inside the shed. I know a block building would have been better but I live in a flood area and it would be underwater sometime and I really did not want to deal with seeing my pet diesel generator underwater. I have not decided on how much I want to spend so don’t hammer me about it. I will spend what it takes, it will just take longer. Thanks Offgridman

Response:

Back in my radio engineering days, I had to soundproof, as much as possible, some new studios. One way is through the use of two separate walls, each framed with normal 2×4 lumber, and constructed with a product called Homosote. It’s similar to drywall (gypsum board) material but made from paper and cardboard. Usually it’s a gray color, not quite as heavy as drywall material, and installs, cuts, and tapes up the same way. Build the two walls so the studs are interleaved (i.e. on 8 inch centers from one wall to the other) and separate the walls by an inch or so. Put fiberglass insulation in the space between the walls, weaving it between the offset studs. Use some sort of rubber membrane between the walls at the floor and ceiling joints. You can buy some foam soundproofing material and line the inside walls with that. My little 12kw Onan genset has 1 inch thick foam throughout the inside of the enclosure. It seems to have some sort of shiny paper or plastic layer on the inside. Every possible surface is covered by this foam. The unit is very quiet. Your biggest problem is likely going to be vibration from the generator to any piece of plywood. This will act as a loudspeaker and will be difficult to eliminate. Isolating the floor from the generator any way you can will be a big help. Obviously you need something springy yet strong enough to support the weight. What about hanging it from several pieces of rubber tires, or making legs from the floor that can raise the support position and cradle the generator? You may be able to use several pieces folded together under the generator between it and the floor. The more you have, the better, but obviously if you get it too high and movable, it could walk off the supports, so you may need to strap it into place in all directions. Even though it’s up in the air, surrounding it with some evergreen trees or shrubs will also offer some soundproofing to the rest of the neighborhood, as will some sort of fence. Let us know what you end up with. Bob M. ======

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ok, here is what I have… A 8ftx10ft elevated (8ft) generator shed with a > 48inch porch that I need to sound dampen as much as economically possible. > It has a 3×4 plywood floor unfinished and 5/8 RBB plywood siding. I have 8 > inch I beams in the ceiling with a trolley that allows raising and lowering > the genset to the ground by pushing it along the trolley to the outside and > using a chainfall. I want to support the generator at a comfortable working > height on a wooden platform.The roof is 3×4 plywood with metal roofing > fastened to the top with screws. > The diesel generator has a1/2 inch steel plate platform. I need ideas about > what to place between the steel base of the generator and the wooden > platform to dampen vibration/noise transmission. I also need suggestions > about the insulation, sound dampening, etc for the walls,ceiling and > subfloor. I have not finished the inside walls, subfloor bottom or ceiling > yet so I am open to wonderful ideas from the group. > The generator is water cooled and I will cut a opening away from the cabin > for the radiator to vent to the outside through. I will install a furnace > fan below the generator shed to bring cooling air into the shed via a wooden > duct. I will also have a exhaust gas heat exchanger I found a used marine > heat exchanger that only needs a couple of ells welded to it to route the > exhaust gas through. It will be easy to brush clean and really easy to > connect. I will replace the rubber gashets with durabla gaskets in it. This > will provide a secondary method of  heating the hot water for the cabin. A > battery box, inverter,and propane hot water heater will be located inside > the shed. > I know a block building would have been better but I live in a flood area > and it would be underwater sometime and I really did not want to deal with > seeing my pet diesel generator underwater. > I have not decided on how much I want to spend so don’t hammer me about it. > I will spend what it takes, it will just take longer. > Thanks > Offgridman

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Back in my radio engineering days, I had to soundproof, as much as possible, >some new studios. One way is through the use of two separate walls, each >framed with normal 2×4 lumber, and constructed with a product called >Homosote. It’s similar to drywall (gypsum board) material but made from >paper and cardboard. Usually it’s a gray color, not quite as heavy as >drywall material, and installs, cuts, and tapes up the same way. Build the >two walls so the studs are interleaved (i.e. on 8 inch centers from one wall >to the other) and separate the walls by an inch or so. Put fiberglass >insulation in the space between the walls, weaving it between the offset >studs. >Use some sort of rubber membrane between the walls at the floor and ceiling >joints. >You can buy some foam soundproofing material and line the inside walls with >that. >My little 12kw Onan genset has 1 inch thick foam throughout the inside of >the enclosure. It seems to have some sort of shiny paper or plastic layer on >the inside. Every possible surface is covered by this foam. The unit is very >quiet. >Your biggest problem is likely going to be vibration from the generator to >any piece of plywood. This will act as a loudspeaker and will be difficult >to eliminate. Isolating the floor from the generator any way you can will be >a big help. Obviously you need something springy yet strong enough to >support the weight. What about hanging it from several pieces of rubber >tires, or making legs from the floor that can raise the support position and >cradle the generator? You may be able to use several pieces folded together >under the generator between it and the floor. The more you have, the better, >but obviously if you get it too high and movable, it could walk off the >supports, so you may need to strap it into place in all directions. >Even though it’s up in the air, surrounding it with some evergreen trees or >shrubs will also offer some soundproofing to the rest of the neighborhood, >as will some sort of fence. >Let us know what you end up with. >Bob M.

Good ideas, but homosote wouldn’t be the best choice in a flood area. Sound is dampened by isolation, mass, and avoiding resonance. Suspending the generator is good, perhaps different length straps or attaching lead to near the midpoints would help reduce resonance in the straps. Staggered stud walls with snaking fiberglas insulation is an amazingly good sound insulation, especially if the plates aren’t linked to a common floor.  The walls can be covered with homosote or corkboard but a double layer of 5/8 gypsum board, taped and mudded both layers is more common.  The four layer total reduces even bass notes to a whimper. The gypsum board has mass which dampens the energy of the sound, but the material doesn’t react well to water or dampness much better than homosote.  Concrete board (used in tub and shower enclosures) would work but would be expensive.  Stucco over foamboard might be another alternative.  I’ve seen exterior walls made of this. That metal roof will probably need some damping.  Even the undercoating used on cars would help some, but fiberglas batting pressed against the metal would be better. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->====== > Ok, here is what I have… A 8ftx10ft elevated (8ft) generator shed with a > 48inch porch that I need to sound dampen as much as economically possible. > It has a 3×4 plywood floor unfinished and 5/8 RBB plywood siding. I have 8 > inch I beams in the ceiling with a trolley that allows raising and >lowering > the genset to the ground by pushing it along the trolley to the outside >and > using a chainfall. I want to support the generator at a comfortable >working > height on a wooden platform.The roof is 3×4 plywood with metal roofing > fastened to the top with screws. > The diesel generator has a1/2 inch steel plate platform. I need ideas >about > what to place between the steel base of the generator and the wooden > platform to dampen vibration/noise transmission. I also need suggestions > about the insulation, sound dampening, etc for the walls,ceiling and > subfloor. I have not finished the inside walls, subfloor bottom or ceiling > yet so I am open to wonderful ideas from the group. > The generator is water cooled and I will cut a opening away from the cabin > for the radiator to vent to the outside through. I will install a furnace > fan below the generator shed to bring cooling air into the shed via a >wooden > duct. I will also have a exhaust gas heat exchanger I found a used marine > heat exchanger that only needs a couple of ells welded to it to route the > exhaust gas through. It will be easy to brush clean and really easy to > connect. I will replace the rubber gashets with durabla gaskets in it. >This > will provide a secondary method of  heating the hot water for the cabin. A > battery box, inverter,and propane hot water heater will be located inside > the shed. > I know a block building would have been better but I live in a flood area > and it would be underwater sometime and I really did not want to deal with > seeing my pet diesel generator underwater. > I have not decided on how much I want to spend so don’t hammer me about >it. > I will spend what it takes, it will just take longer. > Thanks > Offgridman

Response:

I dunno if this will help or not. Pix of sound dampening chambers. http://images.google.com/images?q=anechoic+chamber&hl=en – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Ok, here is what I have… A 8ftx10ft elevated (8ft) generator shed with a > 48inch porch that I need to sound dampen as much as economically possible. > It has a 3×4 plywood floor unfinished and 5/8 RBB plywood siding. I have 8 > inch I beams in the ceiling with a trolley that allows raising and lowering > the genset to the ground by pushing it along the trolley to the outside and > using a chainfall. I want to support the generator at a comfortable working > height on a wooden platform.The roof is 3×4 plywood with metal roofing > fastened to the top with screws. > The diesel generator has a1/2 inch steel plate platform. I need ideas about > what to place between the steel base of the generator and the wooden > platform to dampen vibration/noise transmission. I also need suggestions > about the insulation, sound dampening, etc for the walls,ceiling and > subfloor. I have not finished the inside walls, subfloor bottom or ceiling > yet so I am open to wonderful ideas from the group. > The generator is water cooled and I will cut a opening away from the cabin > for the radiator to vent to the outside through. I will install a furnace > fan below the generator shed to bring cooling air into the shed via a wooden > duct. I will also have a exhaust gas heat exchanger I found a used marine > heat exchanger that only needs a couple of ells welded to it to route the > exhaust gas through. It will be easy to brush clean and really easy to > connect. I will replace the rubber gashets with durabla gaskets in it. This > will provide a secondary method of  heating the hot water for the cabin. A > battery box, inverter,and propane hot water heater will be located inside > the shed. > I know a block building would have been better but I live in a flood area > and it would be underwater sometime and I really did not want to deal with > seeing my pet diesel generator underwater. > I have not decided on how much I want to spend so don’t hammer me about it. > I will spend what it takes, it will just take longer. > Thanks > Offgridman

– I don’t like spam. Remove it to contact me. Somewhere in Wisconsin.

Response:

I once worked in a yard that built motor yachts, and we insulated the engine room with sheets of 1" thick stiff fiberglass insulation, covered with thin (about 1/16") sheet lead. Sheet lead is wonderful for damping out resonance. You can buy a wide variety of shock-absorbing mounts for equipment. Small air-inflated rubber mounts would be a good choice for a generator, I think. Check with a company that makes mounting racks for electronic gear. That’s where I have seen such stuff used. Volvo cars used to achieve some sound deadening with heavy rubber matting beneath the carpets in the engine-transmission area of the interior floor. These mats are heavy in that they weigh a lot for their size (i.e. high specific gravity). I think the rubber is filled with barite. Barite is a naturally-occurring mineral composed of barium sulfate, and it has a specific gravity of 4.5, if I remember correctly. I wonder if it would be possible to make "heavy" sound-deadening wallboard with a high barite content. Barite is quite cheap, readily available, and safe. I don’t even know how easy it is to get sheet lead these days, but it takes relatively little to get a good degree of sound deadening. Because it is very soft, it doesn’t resonate like sheet steel or aluminum is wont to do, and its mass tends to damp out resonace in the surface to which it is attached. It’s worth looking into. Simply stapling it to the walls of your generator shack should help a bit. Gordon Richmond – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Back in my radio engineering days, I had to soundproof, as much as possible, > some new studios. One way is through the use of two separate walls, each > framed with normal 2×4 lumber, and constructed with a product called > Homosote. It’s similar to drywall (gypsum board) material but made from > paper and cardboard. Usually it’s a gray color, not quite as heavy as > drywall material, and installs, cuts, and tapes up the same way. Build the > two walls so the studs are interleaved (i.e. on 8 inch centers from one wall > to the other) and separate the walls by an inch or so. Put fiberglass > insulation in the space between the walls, weaving it between the offset > studs. > Use some sort of rubber membrane between the walls at the floor and ceiling > joints. > You can buy some foam soundproofing material and line the inside walls with > that. > My little 12kw Onan genset has 1 inch thick foam throughout the inside of > the enclosure. It seems to have some sort of shiny paper or plastic layer on > the inside. Every possible surface is covered by this foam. The unit is very > quiet. > Your biggest problem is likely going to be vibration from the generator to > any piece of plywood. This will act as a loudspeaker and will be difficult > to eliminate. Isolating the floor from the generator any way you can will be > a big help. Obviously you need something springy yet strong enough to > support the weight. What about hanging it from several pieces of rubber > tires, or making legs from the floor that can raise the support position and > cradle the generator? You may be able to use several pieces folded together > under the generator between it and the floor. The more you have, the better, > but obviously if you get it too high and movable, it could walk off the > supports, so you may need to strap it into place in all directions. > Even though it’s up in the air, surrounding it with some evergreen trees or > shrubs will also offer some soundproofing to the rest of the neighborhood, > as will some sort of fence. > Let us know what you end up with. > Bob M. > ====== > Ok, here is what I have… A 8ftx10ft elevated (8ft) generator shed with a > 48inch porch that I need to sound dampen as much as economically possible. > It has a 3×4 plywood floor unfinished and 5/8 RBB plywood siding. I have 8 > inch I beams in the ceiling with a trolley that allows raising and > lowering > the genset to the ground by pushing it along the trolley to the outside > and > using a chainfall. I want to support the generator at a comfortable > working > height on a wooden platform.The roof is 3×4 plywood with metal roofing > fastened to the top with screws. > The diesel generator has a1/2 inch steel plate platform. I need ideas > about > what to place between the steel base of the generator and the wooden > platform to dampen vibration/noise transmission. I also need suggestions > about the insulation, sound dampening, etc for the walls,ceiling and > subfloor. I have not finished the inside walls, subfloor bottom or ceiling > yet so I am open to wonderful ideas from the group. > The generator is water cooled and I will cut a opening away from the cabin > for the radiator to vent to the outside through. I will install a furnace > fan below the generator shed to bring cooling air into the shed via a > wooden > duct. I will also have a exhaust gas heat exchanger I found a used marine > heat exchanger that only needs a couple of ells welded to it to route the > exhaust gas through. It will be easy to brush clean and really easy to > connect. I will replace the rubber gashets with durabla gaskets in it. > This > will provide a secondary method of  heating the hot water for the cabin. A > battery box, inverter,and propane hot water heater will be located inside > the shed. > I know a block building would have been better but I live in a flood area > and it would be underwater sometime and I really did not want to deal with > seeing my pet diesel generator underwater. > I have not decided on how much I want to spend so don’t hammer me about > it. > I will spend what it takes, it will just take longer. > Thanks > Offgridman

Response:

So far good sugestions… The only thing I would add, is to make a platform that the generator sits on. Do not let this platform touch the shed, have it anchored to the ground directly. So what you end up with is a platform that is 8′ off the ground, and a separate shed building that is ‘around’ the generator, but not supporting it. so all the sound that you have to get rid of is acoustic to the building, not mechanical of the building shaking. CAP – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Ok, here is what I have… A 8ftx10ft elevated (8ft) generator shed with a > 48inch porch that I need to sound dampen as much as economically possible. > It has a 3×4 plywood floor unfinished and 5/8 RBB plywood siding. I have 8 > inch I beams in the ceiling with a trolley that allows raising and lowering > the genset to the ground by pushing it along the trolley to the outside and > using a chainfall. I want to support the generator at a comfortable working > height on a wooden platform.The roof is 3×4 plywood with metal roofing > fastened to the top with screws. > The diesel generator has a1/2 inch steel plate platform. I need ideas about > what to place between the steel base of the generator and the wooden > platform to dampen vibration/noise transmission. I also need suggestions > about the insulation, sound dampening, etc for the walls,ceiling and > subfloor. I have not finished the inside walls, subfloor bottom or ceiling > yet so I am open to wonderful ideas from the group. > The generator is water cooled and I will cut a opening away from the cabin > for the radiator to vent to the outside through. I will install a furnace > fan below the generator shed to bring cooling air into the shed via a wooden > duct. I will also have a exhaust gas heat exchanger I found a used marine > heat exchanger that only needs a couple of ells welded to it to route the > exhaust gas through. It will be easy to brush clean and really easy to > connect. I will replace the rubber gashets with durabla gaskets in it. This > will provide a secondary method of  heating the hot water for the cabin. A > battery box, inverter,and propane hot water heater will be located inside > the shed. > I know a block building would have been better but I live in a flood area > and it would be underwater sometime and I really did not want to deal with > seeing my pet diesel generator underwater. > I have not decided on how much I want to spend so don’t hammer me about it. > I will spend what it takes, it will just take longer. > Thanks > Offgridman

Response:

I have some rather strange suggestions…more based around stereo equipment than anything else… a buddy of mine loved records…old vinyl records problem was with his picky batlike hearing he could hear the shake of the speakers in the needle of the turntable he placed his speakers on sharp metal cones that were filled with lead shot points down to the floor…I think a rubber sheet was involved as well…this solved his shaking floor problem. as for the sound itself I once wired some car speakers wrong….or one of a pair was wired wrong…the net effect was a muffled din as one speaker pushed the other pulled and they got nowhere.all it took was switch + and – on one of the two speakers… it seems that if you have a microphone feeding an amp and you reverse the polarity of the speaker(s)and put the speakers in your gen shed you could get the same effect…an adjustable capacitor would let you tune the lag so the effect could be maximized something similar is used on the headsets used in airplanes to cancel out the engine noise if you want to hear the in-flight movie strange but true,good luck Peter

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So far good sugestions… The only thing I would add, is to make a platform > that the generator sits on. Do not let this platform touch the shed, have it > anchored to the ground directly. So what you end up with is a platform that is > 8′ off the ground, and a separate shed building that is ‘around’ the generator, > but not supporting it. so all the sound that you have to get rid of is acoustic > to the building, not mechanical of the building shaking. > CAP > Ok, here is what I have… A 8ftx10ft elevated (8ft) generator shed with a > 48inch porch that I need to sound dampen as much as economically possible. > It has a 3×4 plywood floor unfinished and 5/8 RBB plywood siding. I have 8 > inch I beams in the ceiling with a trolley that allows raising and lowering > the genset to the ground by pushing it along the trolley to the outside and > using a chainfall. I want to support the generator at a comfortable working > height on a wooden platform.The roof is 3×4 plywood with metal roofing > fastened to the top with screws. > The diesel generator has a1/2 inch steel plate platform. I need ideas about > what to place between the steel base of the generator and the wooden > platform to dampen vibration/noise transmission. I also need suggestions > about the insulation, sound dampening, etc for the walls,ceiling and > subfloor. I have not finished the inside walls, subfloor bottom or ceiling > yet so I am open to wonderful ideas from the group. > The generator is water cooled and I will cut a opening away from the cabin > for the radiator to vent to the outside through. I will install a furnace > fan below the generator shed to bring cooling air into the shed via a wooden > duct. I will also have a exhaust gas heat exchanger I found a used marine > heat exchanger that only needs a couple of ells welded to it to route the > exhaust gas through. It will be easy to brush clean and really easy to > connect. I will replace the rubber gashets with durabla gaskets in it. This > will provide a secondary method of  heating the hot water for the cabin. A > battery box, inverter,and propane hot water heater will be located inside > the shed. > I know a block building would have been better but I live in a flood area > and it would be underwater sometime and I really did not want to deal with > seeing my pet diesel generator underwater. > I have not decided on how much I want to spend so don’t hammer me about it. > I will spend what it takes, it will just take longer. > Thanks > Offgridman

Response:

It’s important to distinguish between an attempt to prevent sound energy from reflecting back to the inside of a space (e.g. recording studio) and an attempt to prevent sound energy from escaping a space. For example, lining the walls with egg crates (as we did in the early days of budget home recording) may help slightly to reduce internal reflections in the mid/upper end of the spectrum, but won’t do a darn thing to keep the thump from the kick drum from leaking into the rest of the house. This isn’t to say that a some treatments don’t help with both issues, just that the distinction is important. -smw > I dunno if this will help or not. Pix of sound dampening chambers. > http://images.google.com/images?q=anechoic+chamber&hl=en > Ok, here is what I have… A 8ftx10ft elevated (8ft)

generator shed with a > 48inch porch that I need to sound dampen as much as

economically possible. > It has a 3×4 plywood floor unfinished and 5/8 RBB

plywood siding. I have 8 > inch I beams in the ceiling with a trolley that allows

raising and lowering – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> the genset to the ground by pushing it along the trolley to the outside and > using a chainfall. I want to support the generator at a comfortable working > height on a wooden platform.The roof is 3×4 plywood with metal roofing > fastened to the top with screws. > The diesel generator has a1/2 inch steel plate platform. I need ideas about > what to place between the steel base of the generator and the wooden > platform to dampen vibration/noise transmission. I also need suggestions > about the insulation, sound dampening, etc for the walls,ceiling and > subfloor. I have not finished the inside walls, subfloor bottom or ceiling > yet so I am open to wonderful ideas from the group. > The generator is water cooled and I will cut a opening away from the cabin > for the radiator to vent to the outside through. I will install a furnace > fan below the generator shed to bring cooling air into

the shed via a wooden > duct. I will also have a exhaust gas heat exchanger I found a used marine > heat exchanger that only needs a couple of ells welded to it to route the > exhaust gas through. It will be easy to brush clean and really easy to > connect. I will replace the rubber gashets with durabla gaskets in it. This > will provide a secondary method of  heating the hot

water for the cabin. A > battery box, inverter,and propane hot water heater will be located inside > the shed. > I know a block building would have been better but I

live in a flood area – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> and it would be underwater sometime and I really did not want to deal with > seeing my pet diesel generator underwater. > I have not decided on how much I want to spend so don’t hammer me about it. > I will spend what it takes, it will just take longer. > Thanks > Offgridman > — > I don’t like spam. > Remove it to contact me. > Somewhere in Wisconsin.

Response:

There are three types of noise that you will need to deal with. Here are my thoughts on what "might" work. 1. Vibrations directly coupled to the structure where the generator is mounted. A previous post had a good idea of supporting the generator by a separate set of legs all the way to the ground. While that would be very effective, it sounds like a lot of work to accomplish, especially since you already have the building in place. A less effective, but probably easier method would be to use rubber motor mounts to isolate the vibration from the floor (or table). I’d look for the softer types of rubber motor mounts like they use to mount generators to their metal frames. Perhaps rubber motor mounts for a motorcycle or ATV could be found inexpensively as well. Another thought is the foam (not Styrofoam) that is sometimes used in industrial (mostly electronics) pallets. My guess is that the direct coupled vibration will be amplified by the structure unless you can isolate it effectively. I’d put most of my effort into eliminating direct coupled vibrations. I think I’d eliminate the table because it would seem to make it more likely to induce additional vibrations. If it is something that you would really prefer, then build a very heavy and solid table, perhaps with 4×4’s and use more rubber motor mounts to mount it firmly to the floor. Those would be in addition to mounts between the table and the generator base. 2. Vibrations radiated to the inside walls floor and ceiling of the structure. I would try something simple, like hanging remnants of scrap carpeting from the ceiling. You could use some tie-wire or tie-wraps to hang multiple pieces from the ceiling to the floor as with a foot or two of each side of the generator. Nail a couple of sections to the ceiling over the generator. On any side that you need access for maintenance, you could hang the carpeting from a track, of a type that is used for a sliding door and which is available at hardware and building supplies. One or two layers of heavy c arpet should deaden most of the air radiated noise. 3. Exhaust noise. You will want to run your exhaust outside of the building for safety reasons and to avoid heat buildup in the building. One idea from another poster was to run the output from a lengthened exhaust pipe into a larger stack pipe that exits vertically from the roof. That sounded like it would work quite well. Perhaps a 12′ section of 4" galvanized vent  pipe with a cap on top would serve this purpose. Whatever you do, please report back on how it worked. Generator noise is a common problem that many readers of this noise group are interested in.

Response:

Thanks for all the ideas. I will post my results just as soon as I finish and test run the system. The weather has me held up as it is cooold and wet now. I hope to see it warm up soon. Thanks again, offgridman

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There are three types of noise that you will need to deal with. Here are my > thoughts on what "might" work. > 1. Vibrations directly coupled to the structure where the generator is > mounted. > A previous post had a good idea of supporting the generator by a separate > set of legs all the way to the ground. While that would be very effective, > it sounds like a lot of work to accomplish, especially since you already > have the building in place. A less effective, but probably easier method > would be to use rubber motor mounts to isolate the vibration from the floor > (or table). I’d look for the softer types of rubber motor mounts like they > use to mount generators to their metal frames. Perhaps rubber motor mounts > for a motorcycle or ATV could be found inexpensively as well. Another > thought is the foam (not Styrofoam) that is sometimes used in industrial > (mostly electronics) pallets. My guess is that the direct coupled vibration > will be amplified by the structure unless you can isolate it effectively. > I’d put most of my effort into eliminating direct coupled vibrations. > I think I’d eliminate the table because it would seem to make it more likely > to induce additional vibrations. If it is something that you would really > prefer, then build a very heavy and solid table, perhaps with 4×4’s and use > more rubber motor mounts to mount it firmly to the floor. Those would be in > addition to mounts between the table and the generator base. > 2. Vibrations radiated to the inside walls floor and ceiling of the > structure. > I would try something simple, like hanging remnants of scrap carpeting from > the ceiling. You could use some tie-wire or tie-wraps to hang multiple > pieces from the ceiling to the floor as with a foot or two of each side of > the generator. Nail a couple of sections to the ceiling over the generator. > On any side that you need access for maintenance, you could hang the > carpeting from a track, of a type that is used for a sliding door and which > is available at hardware and building supplies. One or two layers of heavy c > arpet should deaden most of the air radiated noise. > 3. Exhaust noise. > You will want to run your exhaust outside of the building for safety reasons > and to avoid heat buildup in the building. One idea from another poster was > to run the output from a lengthened exhaust pipe into a larger stack pipe > that exits vertically from the roof. That sounded like it would work quite > well. Perhaps a 12′ section of 4" galvanized vent  pipe with a cap on top > would serve this purpose. > Whatever you do, please report back on how it worked. Generator noise is a > common problem that many readers of this noise group are interested in.

Response:

http://avtinc.net/outline.asp

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It’s important to distinguish between an attempt to prevent > sound energy from reflecting back to the inside of a space > (e.g. recording studio) and an attempt to prevent sound > energy from escaping a space. > For example, lining the walls with egg crates (as we did in > the early days of budget home recording) may help slightly > to reduce internal reflections in the mid/upper end of the > spectrum, but won’t do a darn thing to keep the thump from > the kick drum from leaking into the rest of the house. > This isn’t to say that a some treatments don’t help with > both issues, just that the distinction is important. > -smw > I dunno if this will help or not. Pix of sound dampening > chambers. > http://images.google.com/images?q=anechoic+chamber&hl=en > > Ok, here is what I have… A 8ftx10ft elevated (8ft) > generator shed with a > > 48inch porch that I need to sound dampen as much as > economically possible. > > It has a 3×4 plywood floor unfinished and 5/8 RBB > plywood siding. I have 8 > > inch I beams in the ceiling with a trolley that allows > raising and lowering > > the genset to the ground by pushing it along the trolley > to the outside and > > using a chainfall. I want to support the generator at a > comfortable working > > height on a wooden platform.The roof is 3×4 plywood with > metal roofing > > fastened to the top with screws. > > The diesel generator has a1/2 inch steel plate platform. > I need ideas about > > what to place between the steel base of the generator > and the wooden > > platform to dampen vibration/noise transmission. I also > need suggestions > > about the insulation, sound dampening, etc for the > walls,ceiling and > > subfloor. I have not finished the inside walls, subfloor > bottom or ceiling > > yet so I am open to wonderful ideas from the group. > > The generator is water cooled and I will cut a opening > away from the cabin > > for the radiator to vent to the outside through. I will > install a furnace > > fan below the generator shed to bring cooling air into > the shed via a wooden > > duct. I will also have a exhaust gas heat exchanger I > found a used marine > > heat exchanger that only needs a couple of ells welded > to it to route the > > exhaust gas through. It will be easy to brush clean and > really easy to > > connect. I will replace the rubber gashets with durabla > gaskets in it. This > > will provide a secondary method of  heating the hot > water for the cabin. A > > battery box, inverter,and propane hot water heater will > be located inside > > the shed. > > I know a block building would have been better but I > live in a flood area > > and it would be underwater sometime and I really did not > want to deal with > > seeing my pet diesel generator underwater. > > I have not decided on how much I want to spend so don’t > hammer me about it. > > I will spend what it takes, it will just take longer. > > Thanks > > Offgridman > — > I don’t like spam. > Remove it to contact me. > Somewhere in Wisconsin.

Response:

offgridman, Great. By the way, where is your place located where you have to place the generator up so high to avoid flooding? Just curious. bughunter

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks for all the ideas. > I will post my results just as soon as I finish and test run the system. The > weather has me held up as it is cooold and wet now. I hope to see it warm up > soon. > Thanks again, > offgridman

Response:

Maybe to break your paradyme… When I was in the Army, we had to bury our generator set underground at every setup.  Once you lower the noise level below the ground, it kills the sound totally.  Quite a cheap, solid method.  I have used it at the bluegrass festival and people cannot even hear it until they stand over the hole. Dig a big hole and build up a concrete wall. (maybe a septic tank would be quicker)  Extend the walls up higher than any flood level.  At the bottom of the hole put in a sump with a battery sump pump.  Take your shack and put it over the hole for weather coverage.  Cut out the floor of the shack.  When you need the generator, start up the pump and pump out any standing water. Now lower the generator into the hole with your tracks and start it up. If you wish to guarantee your generator won’t get wet, then put it on pontoons.  A couple of plastic barrels would do the job.  If not, then buy raft floation. Carl

Response:

Mon Louis island  in Theodore Alabama when get some real hurricanes down here. I am about a mile south from Bellingrath Gardens if you know where that is.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> offgridman, > Great. By the way, where is your place located where you have to place the > generator up so high to avoid flooding? Just curious. > bughunter > Thanks for all the ideas. > I will post my results just as soon as I finish and test run the system. > The > weather has me held up as it is cooold and wet now. I hope to see it warm > up > soon. > Thanks again, > offgridman

Response:

At a previous company, we used to ship machinery with air-filled isolators underneath. They were heavy-duty inflatable donuts about the same size and shape of inner-tubes for a small tire. I would think you could find them looking around shipping supplies companies. Alternatively, I would maybe try some partially inflated inner-tubes arranged under the platform and filled to give about an inch of cushion. I also once saw a picture where an inertial mass was isolated by sitting on *lots* of little erasers (the kind kids get for school). – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The diesel generator has a1/2 inch steel plate platform. I need ideas about > what to place between the steel base of the generator and the wooden > platform to dampen vibration/noise transmission. I also need suggestions

Response:

> At a previous company, we used to ship machinery with air-filled isolators > underneath. They were heavy-duty inflatable donuts about the same size > and shape of inner-tubes for a small tire. I would think you could find them > looking around shipping supplies companies. Alternatively, I would maybe > try some partially inflated inner-tubes arranged under the platform and filled > to give about an inch of cushion.

We used these in high school to isolate an optical-bench we were making holographs on.  Basically whoopee-cushions.  Isolated the table-top from the floor very well. If you think about it, that’s not real different from what motor mounts do in a car – isolate the noise of vibration from the engine, from transmitting to the structure of the car. Dave

Response:

Question:

Hi Michelle, Patch did have a dry hacking cough as you describe.  The honking really didn’t happen until he was later diagnosed with some inoperable lung disease (and died within a month).  I believe that was a separate issue from the trachea.  Yes, it’s as if they have a piece of hair caught in their throat. Patch lived to be 13 years old, about 5 years with the trachea problem.  You probably need an x-ray.  Good luck. Robin

Response:

Your dog should be seen by a vet.  In the mean time, find some way of increasing the humidity inside the house — I’m a little surprised you haven’t already done this.  Also, try to keep the animal away from the fireplace, which may be downdrafting smoke, and where there are bound to be mold spores floating around from the firewood brought into the house. Marcus in Vermont

Response:

Thanks for the reply Marcus. Yes, we do have a humidfier on our furnace and I have it up to a pretty high level. Also, the fireplace is a gas model so no wood/smoke problems. We will be taking her to the vet within the week. Thanks. Michelle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Your dog should be seen by a vet.  In the mean time, find some way of > increasing the humidity inside the house — I’m a little surprised you > haven’t already done this.  Also, try to keep the animal away from the > fireplace, which may be downdrafting smoke, and where there are bound to be > mold spores floating around from the firewood brought into the house. > Marcus in Vermont

Response:

Rat Terriers are small breeds, smaller but somewhat tall and long legged. She weighs about 18 lbs. I had found some info about the collapsed trachea thing through a search of the archives but it seemed that one thing that went along with that was a "honking" sound to the cough. Could you tell me if your dogs cough sounded honking with this? I’m sorry to hear your dog had this condition. This cough is very dry, sometimes sounding even a little hoarse. Imagine if you felt a hair in the back of your throat and the kind of "hack" you might do to get it out. Hate to sound so corny in my description, but that it was it is like. Not honky, nor phlemy and mucusy at all, just a big, dry burst of exhale of breath. By the way, the medication she had taken for her allergies was Prednisone which seemed to help great with her allergies from a couple years ago with a draining nose and sneezing, but it does not help this cough. I will bring this up to the vet though, thanks again. Michelle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’m not familiar with Rat Terriers, but is that kind of small?  If so, we > had a mixed breed that developed a cough which was due to a collapsing > trachea.  He did well for years on a medication called theophyllin (sp). > His cough got worse in the very warm weather and he slowed down then too. > This was diagnosed with an x-ray.  Apparently, this condition is quite > common in the smaller dog.  Good luck to you. > Robin

Response:

I’m not familiar with Rat Terriers, but is that kind of small?  If so, we had a mixed breed that developed a cough which was due to a collapsing trachea.  He did well for years on a medication called theophyllin (sp). His cough got worse in the very warm weather and he slowed down then too. This was diagnosed with an x-ray.  Apparently, this condition is quite common in the smaller dog.  Good luck to you. Robin

Response:

I’ve done some reaearch of dog caughs on the net already but not really sure if my dog actually has a "cough." My dog is a Rat Terrier and is 4.5 years old. When she was about 1 she developed allergies and had kind of a snotty drainage from her nose with a lot of sneezing. We went through several prescriptions from the vet and finally found one that somewhat helped. She hasn’t really had too much problem with allergies since but then all of the sudden this past summer and fall she has developed this kind of "cough." We thought at first that it was just her allergies acting up but the medicine didn’t seem to help at all. She is having no drainage from her nose whatsoever and has no symtoms like weakness, sickness, lack of eating, etc. She simply has this cough. It’s not a deep "hooping" cough, there is not any kind of mucus or phlem she is coughing up or clearing out, it’s a very dry type of thing. It has got worse late this fall when it started getting cold out and the heat is on, so the air in our home is drier. When she sits near our fireplace it gets really bad for her. So the cough is just kind of a dry exhale of breath, like she wants to get a hair out of her throat or something, and it’s got to a point where she is doing it non stop. We plan to take her to the vet but I wanted to ask some pet forums about this to gain more knowledge. We have found some information on coughs on the internet which might indicate she has a bronchial inflamation thing. She has always taken a heart worm preventative, she does not have kennel cough as she has not been near dogs other than our other dog who has no symptoms of a cough, and of course she was vaccinated against Distemper. If anyone has any information, suggestions, diagnosis, whatever, we would appreciate it. Thanks, Michelle

Response:

My brother’s dog had a cough – they took him to a vet (he was approx. 12 yrs. old) and was diganosed with cancer of the lung.  They had him put down – which was very hard on both of them. (This happened within the past month.)                                           Jim Lounsbury – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’ve done some reaearch of dog caughs on the net already but not > really sure if my dog actually has a "cough." > My dog is a Rat Terrier and is 4.5 years old. When she was about 1 she > developed allergies and had kind of a snotty drainage from her nose > with a lot of sneezing. We went through several prescriptions from the > vet and finally found one that somewhat helped. She hasn’t really had > too much problem with allergies since but then all of the sudden this > past summer and fall she has developed this kind of "cough." > We thought at first that it was just her allergies acting up but the > medicine didn’t seem to help at all. She is having no drainage from > her nose whatsoever and has no symtoms like weakness, sickness, lack > of eating, etc. She simply has this cough. It’s not a deep "hooping" > cough, there is not any kind of mucus or phlem she is coughing up or > clearing out, it’s a very dry type of thing. It has got worse late > this fall when it started getting cold out and the heat is on, so the > air in our home is drier. When she sits near our fireplace it gets > really bad for her. So the cough is just kind of a dry exhale of > breath, like she wants to get a hair out of her throat or something, > and it’s got to a point where she is doing it non stop. > We plan to take her to the vet but I wanted to ask some pet forums > about this to gain more knowledge. We have found some information on > coughs on the internet which might indicate she has a bronchial > inflamation thing. She has always taken a heart worm preventative, she > does not have kennel cough as she has not been near dogs other than > our other dog who has no symptoms of a cough, and of course she was > vaccinated against Distemper. If anyone has any information, > suggestions, diagnosis, whatever, we would appreciate it. > Thanks, > Michelle

Response:

Question:

A million years ago the Mother Earth news had plans available for a solar heat grabber that is attached to your window. I have scoured my back copies with no  luck. If any of  you have these plans I would be interested in purchasing a copy of same. Thanks.              *     ,MMM8&&&.            *                   MMMM88&&&&&    .                  MMMM88&&&&&&&      *           MMM88&&&&&&&&                  MMM88&&&&&&&&                  ’MMM88&&&&&&’                    ’MMM8&&&’      *           |___/|           )     (             .              ’          =     /=            )===(       *           /               |     |          /                       /   |  |  |  |( (  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   |  |  |  | ) ) |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   |  |  |  |(_(  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |   |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |                  Calico Moon

Response:

Almost all the light and heat reaching a window will be converted to heat in the house anyway. Putting a black thing by the window won’t achieve anything. prrrrrr.

Response:

These things hang outside and below at an angle to the window.  Kinda like a mini solar hot air panel for the window.  Construction is basic thermosiphon stuff.  They can increase the solar gain on a south facing window by a factor of 2! Bill Roosa

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Almost all the light and heat reaching a window will be converted to > heat in the house anyway. Putting a black thing by the window won’t > achieve anything. > prrrrrr.

Response:

Go to the library and look up solar heating.  There where three in my library with these thing in them.  Construction is basic let me know I you want a concept to go from. Bill Roosa – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A million years ago the Mother Earth news had plans available for a > solar heat grabber that is attached to your window. > I have scoured my back copies with no  luck. > If any of  you have these plans I would be interested in purchasing a > copy of same. > Thanks. >              *     ,MMM8&&&.            * >                   MMMM88&&&&&    . >                  MMMM88&&&&&&& >      *           MMM88&&&&&&&& >                  MMM88&&&&&&&& >                  ’MMM88&&&&&&’ >                    ’MMM8&&&’      * >           |___/| >           )     (             .              ’ >          =     /= >            )===(       * >           /     >           |     | >          /       >                 / >   |  |  |  |( (  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | >   |  |  |  | ) ) |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | >   |  |  |  |(_(  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | >   |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | >   |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | >                  Calico Moon

Response:

Sounds a bit like the thornton mirror, only more complex. I use a Thornton mirror here, it nearly doubles the heat and light coming into the window. It is a near horizontal mirror outside the window at sill level. It provides a little free winter heat, not a great deal, and pays for itself many times over. I calculated what such mirrors saved on bills over their lifetime, and it added up very nicely. Have to dig out the figures.

Response:

> A million years ago the Mother Earth news had plans available for a > solar heat grabber that is attached to your window.

See William A. Shurcliff, "New inventions in low-cost solar heating", Brick House Publishing Company, 1979, out of print, but sometimes available at <www.ababooks.com> and in libraries. Shurcliff describes many "solar heat grabbers" (he doesn’t call them that), including cheap reflectors to increase the sunlight coming through the window.  One interesting device augments the solar cross section of the window without blocking or augmenting sunlight coming through it. The device consists of a black area on the exterior wall around the window, and an exterior plastic film over the window extending past the edges of the window to the edges of the blackened area.  Convection, or a blower, transfers hot air from the small sunspace thus created into the house.  Shurcliff describes many arrangements for getting the air into the house.

Response:

> > A million years ago the Mother Earth news had plans available for a > solar heat grabber that is attached to your window. > See William A. Shurcliff, "New inventions in low-cost solar heating", Brick > House Publishing Company, 1979, out of print, but sometimes available at > <www.ababooks.com> and in libraries.

Correction: – that is  <www.abebooks.com>. If you don’t find it there search ‘used books’ through Google, but whatever you do, don’t buy from Alibris. They relist other people’s books at 50% to 100% markup, plus shipping. If you order from them, they then buy the book, and several weeks later, you get it. Bob

Response:

> A million years ago the Mother Earth news had plans available for a > solar heat grabber that is attached to your window. > I have scoured my back copies with no  luck. > If any of  you have these plans I would be interested in purchasing a > copy of same.

… (snip incredibly large sig block) … Could this be what you are looking for? http://www.jrwhipple.com/sr/solheater.html Anthony

Response:

The JR Whipple design looks very much like an early Mother Earth News design… I would suggest that Bill Kreamer’s Sol-Air design is only a little more complicated to build, a little more expensive, but far more effective. At present I can’t find his site, but you can e-mail him Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A million years ago the Mother Earth news had plans available for a > solar heat grabber that is attached to your window. > I have scoured my back copies with no  luck. > If any of  you have these plans I would be interested in purchasing a > copy of same. > … (snip incredibly large sig block) … > Could this be what you are looking for? > http://www.jrwhipple.com/sr/solheater.html > Anthony

Response:

Hello all, At night, an active solar collector loses virtually no energy, without manual intervention.  That’s the essential difference between a solar collector and a window.  People with "passive" solar (lots of windows) inevitably take an "active" role in reducing the nighttime losses of their homes. An active solar collector is, in effect, a large window with a virtual, insulated window-plug that self-installs as the collector shuts down.  To do this, it must be designed so there’s no nighttime anti-thermosyphoning, or backdraft.  See the instructions below. Gain from a hot air solar collector is comparable to gain from a window, and is directly proportional to glazed area.  The gain occurs for 5-6 hours on sunny days, during which time, both a window and a solar collector "leak" some of the energy taken in.  During collecting hours, there is a net gain. But a window leaks energy 24 hours a day, while the solar collector leaks energy only during collecting hours. To produce "additional" energy, a solar collector can’t be installed behind the window glazing; it must be located so as not to obstruct the window; that is, to one side of it. — Bill Kreamer Sol-Air Company 129 Miller St. Belfast, ME   04915 Tel  207-338-9513 Fax  603-853-9339 ——-

> Sounds a bit like the thornton mirror, only more complex. I use a > Thornton mirror here, it nearly doubles the heat and light coming into > the window. > It is a near horizontal mirror outside the window at sill level. It > provides a little free winter heat, not a great deal, and pays for > itself many times over. > I calculated what such mirrors saved on bills over their lifetime, and > it added up very nicely. Have to dig out the figures.

—— Hello, Please let me know if you have any questions about any of the following information.  You can email me for a .pdf illustration of the collector construction. Bill Kreamer, President Sol-Air Company 129 Miller St. Belfast, ME  04915 tel 207-338-9513 fax 603-853-9339 —- ADVANCED HOMEBUILT AIR-BASED SOLAR COLLECTOR INSTRUCTIONS OVERVIEW INTRODUCTION The instructions below are for a homebuilt version of Sol-Air Company’s air-based SHVC (Solar Heating and Ventilation Cooling) system (description at bottom). Our commercial version differs from the homebuilt in having an internal air-handler (the AutoVent automatic mode-switching control), and a proprietary absorber material that has somewhat higher surface area and selective properties. Homebuilt Solar Collector Output Like its commercial cousin, this homebuilt unit produces more energy for the money by far than other forms of solar utilization, including PV and solar DHW systems. The output for a 20 square foot unit is approximately 5,000,000 Btu per year, equal to approx. 50 gallons of heating oil (or 50 Therms of natural gas). This output is produced primarily in the spring and fall, with a decided dead spot in the middle of a cold winter. Mounting The collector is mounted vertically on the outside wall (the rule that tilt = latitude is for another type – DHW collectors, which need year-round input). The lower sun angle in winter reduces the performance penalty, and the avoidance of summertime sun is an important factor in increasing system life. Another advantage gained is ease of installation. House connection Air passes into and out of the collector through a manifold, which connects it to the inside of the house. Instead of using the collector to replace a window, plan to install your homebuilt collector with the manifold passing through a hole in the wall, (you can install it beneath a window, or with the manifold passing across the window sill of a slider-type of window). That way, you will have two solar devices, the collector and the window. WINDOW COMPARISON At night, an active solar collector loses virtually no energy, without manual intervention.  That’s the essential difference between a solar collector and a window.  People with "passive" solar (lots of windows) inevitably take an "active" role in reducing the nighttime losses of their homes. An active solar collector is, in effect, a large window with a virtual, insulated window-plug that self-installs as the collector shuts down.  To do this, it must be designed so there’s no nighttime anti-thermosyphoning, or backdraft.  See the instructions below. Gain from a hot air solar collector is comparable to gain from a window, and is directly proportional to glazed area.  The gain occurs for 5-6 hours on sunny days, during which time, both a window and a solar collector "leak" some of the energy taken in.  During collecting hours, there is a net gain. But a window leaks energy 24 hours a day, while the solar collector leaks energy only during collecting hours. To produce "additional" energy, a solar collector can’t be installed behind the window glazing; it must be located so as not to obstruct the window; that is, to one side of it. What’s a Window Plug? While a window has greater losses than an active collector, this can be reduced if you manually insulate the window at night, with a "window plug" that you make from 1" blue Styrofoam, edged with wood strips (3/4" x 1", ripped from a 1×4). Each night, or right when you come home from work, you plug your windows. When you put a window plug in, you feel warmer immediately, because the radiant loss in the window direction stops, and the surface of the styrofoam is much warmer. You can put window plugs behind a couch or door during the day. Plug north windows all winter if you like; if you do this, prevent condensation by caulking around the window plug with re-usable "Mor-Tite" caulking.  Use "Mor-Tite" on all your windows. Build a Window Plug: The monetary payback period for window plugs varies from instant (if you have spare time and materials) to six months. In winter, they have an immediate effect on room comfort. To make one, tack together a rectangular frame of the 3/4" x 1" wood, to fit the inside of your window frame. Use one nail at each corner, through the end of one piece into the end grain of the next. Brace the frame with diagonal pieces of wood while it’s in the window. Remove it, lay it on top of the Styrofoam on the floor, and mark inside the wood with a pointy marker pen. Leave 1/16" clearance all the way around (1/8" overall). Use a very sharp, very thin knife to cut the foam on the line. Double 6" long fabric strips into loops to aid removal from the window. Slip the foam into the frame, with a loop in the joint at each side near the top. First use dots of hot glue to stabilize the foam inside the wood, then fill the joint with sawdust-thickened wood glue. Cover one or both sides with Contac shelf paper, muslin (attach with spray glue), wallpaper, etc. For all-winter window plugs, prevent condensation by installing 3M V-seal on the edges: Make the plugs 1/8" undersize (insert corrugated cardboard underneath and on one side of the frame as you first fit it in the window frame (see above). Sand and prime the wood edges with shellac before you apply the V-seal. Use a sharp knife to cut the ends of the V-seal strips so they meet nicely at the corners. Now is the time to fix drafts around the window trim with "Mor-Tite". COLLECTOR FEATURES THE ABSORBER The most important characteristic for an air-cooled absorber is super-high surface area. For your home-built unit, a good solar absorber is 1" thick furnace filter media, painted flat black; or you can use black polyester felt and avoid the painting chore. This absorber material is mounted on a suitable mounting rail, in a collector having reflective-foil interior surfaces – a reflective cavity. Note: Because of high surface area, this filament matrix absorber runs at a very low temperature with no outgassing. There is literally no more outgassing than from a polyester wall-to-wall carpet in a sunny room. High Surface Area Both furnace filter media and polyester felt present a surface area to the airflow that is about 50 times the absorber’s face area. This surface area is higher, by an order of magnitude, than the surface area of conventional metal absorbers, whether finned, rippled, dimpled, or screen type. The sun shines on the fibers, which get very hot. As air passes through the filament matrix, it has intimate contact with the fibers, and extremely good turbulence. The turbulence reduces the thickness of the boundary layer of air next to each fiber, increasing heat transfer to the air. Low Cost Material A virtual tripling of the heat transfer surface area is presented via a conduction path length of one fiber diameter. Because this "tripled-area path length" is extremely short, a non-metallic material may be used without a significant performance penalty, resulting in a savings in material cost. In the outer-surface, "inside out" heat exchange used by this "filament matrix" type of absorber, sun-lit fibers transfer their heat directly at the sites at which the heat is generated, or immediately adjacent to them. The absorber’s mass being finely divided and dispersed results in the length of the internal heat-conducting path (through the fiber material from directly sunlit fiber site to an adjacent shaded portion of the same fiber), is made extremely short. In effect, a tripling of the available heat transfer surface area is located a single fiber-diameter away from the primary sunlit fiber site (heat travels each way along a fiber from the primary sunlit site). Material note: I have used both glass fiber and polyester fiber furnace filter media as a solar collector absorber for 18 years without observing significant material degradation. Polyester felt should do just as well. As a pro-active precaution, observe the "Operation Caveat" stated below. Low Cost Design A liquid-cooled … read more »

Response:

> Hello all, > What’s a Window Plug? > While a window has greater losses than an active collector, this can be > reduced if you manually insulate the window at night, with a "window plug" > that you make from 1" blue Styrofoam, edged with wood strips (3/4" x 1",

there is lot’s of cool info in the post (which i printed out to take home and study), but i wanted to point out that styrofoam isn’t supposed to be used indoors without a fire rated cover. it burns very hot and very fast, especially when it’s in a vertical position. last winter i made an all winter window cover by putting a piece of foam in the window and screwing a sheet of plywood over it. it worked great. i’ve been trying to figgure out a way to use foam insulation to plug windows but most of my ideas are either too difficult to make, or too difficult to use. comfort is good, but death sucks. bob south carolina

Response:

Hmmm.  I hear you loud and clear.  There’s a goodly list of household danger items in that category (curtains near candles, towels near electric heaters).  We must be careful with all such, especially with any normally curious children in the home.  I usually put a layer of printed muslin or burlap over the styrofoam for appearance.  I don’t know if that reduces the chances of ignition.  Please all take care, and thank you. Bill Kreamer Sol-Air Company 129 Miller St. Belfast, ME   04915 Tel  207-338-9513 Fax  603-853-9339

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello all, > What’s a Window Plug? > While a window has greater losses than an active collector, this can be > reduced if you manually insulate the window at night, with a "window plug" > that you make from 1" blue Styrofoam, edged with wood strips (3/4" x 1", > there is lot’s of cool info in the post (which i printed out to take home > and study), but i wanted to point out that styrofoam isn’t supposed to be > used indoors without a fire rated cover. it burns very hot and very fast, > especially when it’s in a vertical position. last winter i made an all > winter window cover by putting a piece of foam in the window and screwing a > sheet of plywood over it. it worked great. i’ve been trying to figgure out a > way to use foam insulation to plug windows but most of my ideas are either > too difficult to make, or too difficult to use. comfort is good, but death > sucks. > bob > south carolina

Response:

Do you have any further info on this mirror. This is the 3rd time I have asked after you mentioned it.  I am really interested in what it looks like and how it works. Ron

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sounds a bit like the thornton mirror, only more complex. I use a > Thornton mirror here, it nearly doubles the heat and light coming into > the window. > It is a near horizontal mirror outside the window at sill level. It > provides a little free winter heat, not a great deal, and pays for > itself many times over. > I calculated what such mirrors saved on bills over their lifetime, and > it added up very nicely. Have to dig out the figures.

Response:

… > It is a near horizontal mirror outside the window at sill level. It > provides a little free winter heat, not a great deal, and pays for > itself many times over. … > Do you have any further info on this mirror. This is the 3rd time I have > asked after you mentioned it.  I am really interested in what it looks like > and how it works.

… I’m not the original author but I could hazard a few guesses. a) Since the author is ‘N. Thornton’ and they refer to it as a ‘Thornton mirror’ I would assume that it’s not a description in common use outside of their family. b) Sounds like they are using a large mirror under a south facing window to reflect sunlight through it and increase the amount of light and heat they collect. Assuming (b) then all you need to do is buy any kind of reflective, mirror-like, stuff and place it under your south facing windows. Generally, the more the mirror extends away from the house (if it’s angled right) the more sunlight it’ll reflect into the window. The more the mirror extends past the window east and west the longer during the day it’ll reflect into the window. With the help of a sun angle chart for your location and some graph paper you should be able to figure out the best size and angles. It should be shadowed or covered in the summer months to decrease heat gain through the windows. http://solardat.uoregon.edu/SunChartProgram.html Windows not facing south would require heliostats. Anthony

Response:

> > > It is a near horizontal mirror outside the window at sill level. It > > provides a little free winter heat, not a great deal, and pays for > > itself many times over. > Do you have any further info on this mirror. This is the 3rd time I have > asked after you mentioned it.  I am really interested in what it looks like > and how it works.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m not the original author but I could hazard a few guesses. > a) Since the author is ‘N. Thornton’ and they refer to it as a > ‘Thornton mirror’ I would assume that it’s not a description in > common use outside of their family. > b) Sounds like they are using a large mirror under a south facing > window to reflect sunlight through it and increase the amount of > light and heat they collect. > Assuming (b) then all you need to do is buy any kind of reflective, > mirror-like, stuff and place it under your south facing windows. > Generally, the more the mirror extends away from the house (if > it’s angled right) the more sunlight it’ll reflect into the window. > The more the mirror extends past the window east and west the longer > during the day it’ll reflect into the window. With the help of a > sun angle chart for your location and some graph paper you should be > able to figure out the best size and angles. It should be shadowed > or covered in the summer months to decrease heat gain through the > windows. http://solardat.uoregon.edu/SunChartProgram.html

Ah, zis Inspecteur Anthony is clever, non? (Add Clouseau accent) I did say I would post info at some point, just too busy. As said, it is a near horizontal mirror which reflectrs in extra heat and light through the year. It pays back its cost several times over, though the size of the payback is unremarkable. The light gain is as important as the heat gain. It makes  a big improvement to the feel of a room. When these mirros are built into the design of the house they permit the use of smaller eindows, which further improves heat gain. They are yet another small beneficial concept in energy efficient building technology. The name Thornton mirror is used elsewhere, though not very well known. You can not use any kind of reflective mirror like stuff. Many types of reflectors produce unpleasant glare. Glass mirror is the one to use. In some situations plastic mirror may be preferred, but does not last so well. USed glass mirrors pay back well, new ones dont have especially good payback. Reflective surface mustr be p[rotected against corrosion with durable paint. The mirror is not shaded in summer. This is not satisfactory. The use of a white blind or thin curtain is recommended on the window. This not only cancels the mirror’s heating but redces direct sun heating too, resulting in a cooler house. A very thin white curtain, like a thin sheet, will let lots of light in.

Response:

Hey guys, I make one of these that uses a piece of NiTi ("memory wire") to open a damper when the collector gets hot, then closes it when it cools down. Mine are 33" wide (the CLEAR opening required of the window it’s placed in) and extend about 40" below the window sill… These are really easy to make…I have some CAD drawings and a parts list, but no assembly instructions yet….I think I can turn the drawings into JPEG or GIF’s…. ..contact me if anybody wants more info… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A million years ago the Mother Earth news had plans available for a > solar heat grabber that is attached to your window. > I have scoured my back copies with no  luck. > If any of  you have these plans I would be interested in purchasing a > copy of same. > Thanks. >              *     ,MMM8&&&.            * >                   MMMM88&&&&&    . >                  MMMM88&&&&&&& >      *           MMM88&&&&&&&& >                  MMM88&&&&&&&& >                  ’MMM88&&&&&&’ >                    ’MMM8&&&’      * >           |___/| >           )     (             .              ’ >          =     /= >            )===(       * >           /     >           |     | >          /       >                 / >   |  |  |  |( (  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | >   |  |  |  | ) ) |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | >   |  |  |  |(_(  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | >   |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | >   |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  | >                  Calico Moon

Response:

Question:

Hello, I am new to the whole central heating thing as I come from Tropical Australia and now find myself in Yorkshire UK (not the best place to get into Solar energy). I have just purchased a house with central heating radiators in every room run by a combi boiler.  I have checked the alignment of the house and the roof lines are any way but facing the sun.  (three flat surfaces facing approx West, North, East)  My neighbour has the roof that faces the sun. I have looked in the loft and there seems to be 1-2 inches of insulation with a slate roof (no felt) above.  I have a small yard which has a 6 foot fence which faces the sun.  I could possibly have solar collectors along it but it would be separated from the house and could be shadowed by the house in winter. My dilemma is Insulate the house first then look for solar solutions? Where can I get insulation that is not fibreglass and horrible to work with?  What is the proper way to board out a loft with insulation under the boards? Finally I hate mould and cold drafts so I am interested in Mechanical ventilation.  Can this be incorporated into Solar heat systems. If I expecting savings I need to calculate on 4 year pay back.  I plan on renting the house after that.  Comfort and environment are more important that cost. I also would rather spend a little more knowing I am not wasting as much energy. This is a little of topic but my news feed doesn’t seem to have a better news topic. Well if you get this far Thanks for you time any thoughts or comments will be happily received. DnA

Response:

> Hello, > I am new to the whole central heating thing as I come from Tropical > Australia and now find myself in Yorkshire UK (not the best place to get > into Solar energy). . > My dilemma is Insulate the house first then look for solar solutions? > Where can I get insulation that is not fibreglass and horrible to work > with?  What is the proper way to board out a loft with insulation under the > boards?

Fiberglass is ok really you just need to psyche yourself to do the job and be well covered including respiritory mask and gloves, otherwise use Rockwool or vermiculite granules.  Look in the Yellow pages for suppliers. Sheffield Insulations are very good and are countrwide.(sorry can’t find the catalogue).  You will need to increase the depth of the cieling joists to allow for more insulation under the flooring.  As the loft will now be colder youo will need to add some ventilation grilles in the soffits otherwise you will have condensation in the loft. > Finally I hate mould and cold drafts so I am interested in Mechanical > ventilation.  Can this be incorporated into Solar heat systems.

I have just installed some centrifugal fans to evacuate the bathrooms. Talk to an industrial suppliers and obtain fans with an output around 150m3 / Hr. No dampness at all. You could also build / buy a heat recovery system to conserve heat from vent outlets.  This could then be passed through the collector to warm the air being fed into the house on bright days. I intend to install a solar air heater and thought it could be used for venting to the atmosphere when not required as a heater.  This would give passive ventilation. Air heaters are better hung on the walls to capture low winter sun and not much high summer sun. You may need planning permission for solar collectors, especially on the front of the house.  Talk to the Council re. this. Cheers Will

Response:

You are almost certainly much better off to add insulation first.  That 1 or 2 inches of insulation is not likely to yield more than R5 in insulation value.  Here in Ontario Canada house ceilings are commonly insulated to R40. Your weather won’t be as cold as ours, but going from R5 to R20 or so will make a *big* difference in heat loss through the ceiling. Putting up solar panels is a lot more exciting than adding insulation, but trying to heat a poorly insulated house with solar energy is a lot like pouring water into a sieve. Regards, Bert Menkveld

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello, > I am new to the whole central heating thing as I come from Tropical > Australia and now find myself in Yorkshire UK (not the best place to get > into Solar energy). > I have just purchased a house with central heating radiators in every room > run by a combi boiler.  I have checked the alignment of the house and the > roof lines are any way but facing the sun.  (three flat surfaces facing > approx West, North, East)  My neighbour has the roof that faces the sun. I > have looked in the loft and there seems to be 1-2 inches of insulation with > a slate roof (no felt) above.  I have a small yard which has a 6 foot fence > which faces the sun.  I could possibly have solar collectors along it but it > would be separated from the house and could be shadowed by the house in > winter. > My dilemma is Insulate the house first then look for solar solutions? > Where can I get insulation that is not fibreglass and horrible to work > with?  What is the proper way to board out a loft with insulation under the > boards? > Finally I hate mould and cold drafts so I am interested in Mechanical > ventilation.  Can this be incorporated into Solar heat systems. > If I expecting savings I need to calculate on 4 year pay back.  I plan on > renting > the house after that.  Comfort and environment are more important that cost. > I also would rather spend a little more knowing I am not wasting as much > energy. > This is a little of topic but my news feed doesn’t seem to have a better > news topic. > Well if you get this far Thanks for you time any thoughts or comments will > be happily received. > DnA

Response:

Clearly you need to insulate first. > Where can I get insulation that is not fibreglass and horrible to work > with?

You can buy a recycled paper based insulation, at a price.   What is the proper way to board out a loft with insulation under the > boards?

If you use the loft you insulate the roof, not the floor. If you sont, then floor insulation. There should be enough depth to allow reasonable insulation under the loft floor, 4". 8" is rather better. 2" is not good. > If I expecting savings I need to calculate on 4 year pay back.

You will have to design very carefully indeed to get that sort of figure! The only option which can payback so well is a home made heliostat to heat your  house. Thornton mirrors will payback as well.

Response:

Can you give details on the Thornton mirror. I have seen you mention them a couple of times. I did a check on goggle and hotbot the last time I saw it and didn’t find anything. Ron

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If I expecting savings I need to calculate on 4 year pay back. > You will have to design very carefully indeed to get that sort of > figure! > The only option which can payback so well is a home made heliostat to > heat your  house. > Thornton mirrors will payback as well.

Response:

there is another type of insulation – similar to fiberglass but not nearly as dusty and itchy – I think it is called rockwool. I have used it because fibreglass bothers me, and this stuff was much better. Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hello, > I am new to the whole central heating thing as I come from Tropical > Australia and now find myself in Yorkshire UK (not the best place to get > into Solar energy). > I have just purchased a house with central heating radiators in every room > run by a combi boiler.  I have checked the alignment of the house and the > roof lines are any way but facing the sun.  (three flat surfaces facing > approx West, North, East)  My neighbour has the roof that faces the sun. I > have looked in the loft and there seems to be 1-2 inches of insulation with > a slate roof (no felt) above.  I have a small yard which has a 6 foot fence > which faces the sun.  I could possibly have solar collectors along it but it > would be separated from the house and could be shadowed by the house in > winter. > My dilemma is Insulate the house first then look for solar solutions? > Where can I get insulation that is not fibreglass and horrible to work > with?  What is the proper way to board out a loft with insulation under the > boards? > Finally I hate mould and cold drafts so I am interested in Mechanical > ventilation.  Can this be incorporated into Solar heat systems. > If I expecting savings I need to calculate on 4 year pay back.  I plan on > renting > the house after that.  Comfort and environment are more important that cost. > I also would rather spend a little more knowing I am not wasting as much > energy. > This is a little of topic but my news feed doesn’t seem to have a better > news topic. > Well if you get this far Thanks for you time any thoughts or comments will > be happily received. > DnA

Response:

miriflex (spelled something like that anyway) from dow corning is fiberglas that doesn’t itch. i installed it in part of our crawlspace between the joists. it really doesn’t itch. i built a heat loss model of our house and found that roughly half our heating was going out through the uninsulated floor. heat *radiates* in all directions equally! we put rigid foam under the floor (R4) and it made a HUGE difference. Now the sun coming through the windows has been enough to keep the house warm. it’s been getting down to the 30s (0C) at night and the 50s and 60s (10C to 16C) in the days. i need to work on infiltration (the breeze blowing through the windows and around the doors) and we still need some more insulation, but i expect that before too long most of our heat will come from the sun. bob south carolina

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello, > I am new to the whole central heating thing as I come from Tropical > Australia and now find myself in Yorkshire UK (not the best place to get > into Solar energy). > I have just purchased a house with central heating radiators in every room > run by a combi boiler.  I have checked the alignment of the house and the > roof lines are any way but facing the sun.  (three flat surfaces facing > approx West, North, East)  My neighbour has the roof that faces the sun. I > have looked in the loft and there seems to be 1-2 inches of insulation with > a slate roof (no felt) above.  I have a small yard which has a 6 foot fence > which faces the sun.  I could possibly have solar collectors along it but it > would be separated from the house and could be shadowed by the house in > winter. > My dilemma is Insulate the house first then look for solar solutions? > Where can I get insulation that is not fibreglass and horrible to work > with?  What is the proper way to board out a loft with insulation under the > boards? > Finally I hate mould and cold drafts so I am interested in Mechanical > ventilation.  Can this be incorporated into Solar heat systems. > If I expecting savings I need to calculate on 4 year pay back.  I plan on > renting > the house after that.  Comfort and environment are more important that cost. > I also would rather spend a little more knowing I am not wasting as much > energy. > This is a little of topic but my news feed doesn’t seem to have a better > news topic. > Well if you get this far Thanks for you time any thoughts or comments will > be happily received. > DnA

Response:

If you have moved to a thinly insulated house with a combi boiler then in addition to insulation I would check out the location of your heating thermostat and its accuracy/quality.  Chances are on your system it is too high & beside an external door!  Beware thermostats that have a lengthy dealy between switching on/off. I suspect you have one of those dial jobs and when you turn it you will see what I mean!!!! Regards, Michael Gilmore www.winsfordwalledgarden.co.uk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello, > I am new to the whole central heating thing as I come from Tropical > Australia and now find myself in Yorkshire UK (not the best place to get > into Solar energy). > I have just purchased a house with central heating radiators in every room > run by a combi boiler.  I have checked the alignment of the house and the > roof lines are any way but facing the sun.  (three flat surfaces facing > approx West, North, East)  My neighbour has the roof that faces the sun. I > have looked in the loft and there seems to be 1-2 inches of insulation with > a slate roof (no felt) above.  I have a small yard which has a 6 foot fence > which faces the sun.  I could possibly have solar collectors along it but it > would be separated from the house and could be shadowed by the house in > winter. > My dilemma is Insulate the house first then look for solar solutions? > Where can I get insulation that is not fibreglass and horrible to work > with?  What is the proper way to board out a loft with insulation under the > boards? > Finally I hate mould and cold drafts so I am interested in Mechanical > ventilation.  Can this be incorporated into Solar heat systems. > If I expecting savings I need to calculate on 4 year pay back.  I plan on > renting > the house after that.  Comfort and environment are more important that cost. > I also would rather spend a little more knowing I am not wasting as much > energy. > This is a little of topic but my news feed doesn’t seem to have a better > news topic. > Well if you get this far Thanks for you time any thoughts or comments will > be happily received. > DnA

Response:

Hey its not even that clever. There is a simple time that has two on and two offs per day and a manual override.  Most of the radiators have thermostats that restrict the water flow.  Except for one in the Sun room of all places.  I can feel my hard earned money every time I walk in there. Anyway I would like to get a better timer type controller with a few temperature sensors.  Perhaps one in the lounge and one in the master bedroom (upstairs / downstairs)  Would also like to have two zones.  Would also like to get into the home automation thing.  I know this isn’t the place but most of the chaps here know more about high efficiency heating then anywhere else I have access to. Back to the Solar bit.  I imagine that most of the stuff to manage the combi would also help manage the Solar heat and use the combi as backup. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If you have moved to a thinly insulated house with a combi boiler then in > addition to insulation I would check out the location of your heating > thermostat and its accuracy/quality.  Chances are on your system it is too > high & beside an external door!  Beware thermostats that have a lengthy > dealy between switching on/off. I suspect you have one of those dial jobs > and when you turn it you will see what I mean!!!! > Regards, > Michael Gilmore > www.winsfordwalledgarden.co.uk > Hello, > I am new to the whole central heating thing as I come from Tropical > Australia and now find myself in Yorkshire UK (not the best place to get > into Solar energy). > I have just purchased a house with central heating radiators in every room > run by a combi boiler.  I have checked the alignment of the house and the > roof lines are any way but facing the sun.  (three flat surfaces facing > approx West, North, East)  My neighbour has the roof that faces the sun. I > have looked in the loft and there seems to be 1-2 inches of insulation > with > a slate roof (no felt) above.  I have a small yard which has a 6 foot > fence > which faces the sun.  I could possibly have solar collectors along it but > it > would be separated from the house and could be shadowed by the house in > winter. > My dilemma is Insulate the house first then look for solar solutions? > Where can I get insulation that is not fibreglass and horrible to work > with?  What is the proper way to board out a loft with insulation under > the > boards? > Finally I hate mould and cold drafts so I am interested in Mechanical > ventilation.  Can this be incorporated into Solar heat systems. > If I expecting savings I need to calculate on 4 year pay back.  I plan on > renting > the house after that.  Comfort and environment are more important that > cost. > I also would rather spend a little more knowing I am not wasting as much > energy. > This is a little of topic but my news feed doesn’t seem to have a better > news topic. > Well if you get this far Thanks for you time any thoughts or comments will > be happily received. > DnA

Response:

Beware do not confuse programmer with thermostat. Regarding zoning are you looking to have say a summer vs winter set up?  In which case  some carefull thought to pipe runs and a manual or electric flow valve at the right location is really all you need. When adding insulation do beware of  interstitial condensation or your house will go from cold and dry to warm and wet! Regards, Michael Gilmore www.winsfordwalledgarden.co.uk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hey its not even that clever. > There is a simple time that has two on and two offs per day and a manual > override.  Most of the radiators have thermostats that restrict the water > flow.  Except for one in the Sun room of all places.  I can feel my hard > earned money every time I walk in there. > Anyway I would like to get a better timer type controller with a few > temperature sensors.  Perhaps one in the lounge and one in the master > bedroom (upstairs / downstairs)  Would also like to have two zones.  Would > also like to get into the home automation thing.  I know this isn’t the > place but most of the chaps here know more about high efficiency heating > then anywhere else I have access to. > Back to the Solar bit.  I imagine that most of the stuff to manage the combi > would also help manage the Solar heat and use the combi as backup. in > If you have moved to a thinly insulated house with a combi boiler then in > addition to insulation I would check out the location of your heating > thermostat and its accuracy/quality.  Chances are on your system it is too > high & beside an external door!  Beware thermostats that have a lengthy > dealy between switching on/off. I suspect you have one of those dial jobs > and when you turn it you will see what I mean!!!! > Regards, > Michael Gilmore > www.winsfordwalledgarden.co.uk > > Hello, > > I am new to the whole central heating thing as I come from Tropical > > Australia and now find myself in Yorkshire UK (not the best place to get > > into Solar energy). > > I have just purchased a house with central heating radiators in every > room > > run by a combi boiler.  I have checked the alignment of the house and > the > > roof lines are any way but facing the sun.  (three flat surfaces facing > > approx West, North, East)  My neighbour has the roof that faces the sun. > I > > have looked in the loft and there seems to be 1-2 inches of insulation > with > > a slate roof (no felt) above.  I have a small yard which has a 6 foot > fence > > which faces the sun.  I could possibly have solar collectors along it > but > it > > would be separated from the house and could be shadowed by the house in > > winter. > > My dilemma is Insulate the house first then look for solar solutions? > > Where can I get insulation that is not fibreglass and horrible to work > > with?  What is the proper way to board out a loft with insulation under > the > > boards? > > Finally I hate mould and cold drafts so I am interested in Mechanical > > ventilation.  Can this be incorporated into Solar heat systems. > > If I expecting savings I need to calculate on 4 year pay back.  I plan > on > > renting > > the house after that.  Comfort and environment are more important that > cost. > > I also would rather spend a little more knowing I am not wasting as much > > energy. > > This is a little of topic but my news feed doesn’t seem to have a better > > news topic. > > Well if you get this far Thanks for you time any thoughts or comments > will > > be happily received. > > DnA

Response:

I grew up in Northern Canada, and had an uncle who was a research scientist, dealing with this sort of stuff. He drew me a set of plans for  a house, to be built in that climate, which wouldn’t require any furnace….just lots of insulation. According to him, the two top items were insulation and vapor barrier. Solar heat is nice, but too expensive to collect. Basically, if you can keep the air from moving through the house, carrying heat away with it, and if you can keep heat from radiating away from the house, then the heat from warm bodies, light bulbs, cooking and bathing will keep the house warm. There are several challenges along the way…. 1) retrofitting 2) moisture 3) types of insulation 4) amount of insulation Retrofitting is putting insulation in the house after it is built. You can tear walls out and install insulation, blow insulation in through holes that you have to repair, or build "dummy" walls on the outside, and install insulation between the real wall and the dummy. In the attic (loft), the easiest thing to do is blow insulation into the attic, followed by laying batts of fiberglass on the floor, followed by insulating between the rafters. Insulating under the floor is one of the most difficult, unless you can just blow the entire crawl space full. If you have a basement, you can insulate the basement walls, or insulate the floor above the basement, and leave the basement cold. If your house is built on a concrete slab, you can dig a trench and install a rigid foam heat barrier, which won’t insulate the floor, but will trap much of the heat in the ground under the house. Moisture is a problem in two ways. The first problem is moisture build-up in attic, walls and floor. Escaping air carries moisture, and that moisture condenses on the first cool surface it finds, which is often the underside of the roof and the outer third of the insulation. When it condenses on the roof, it drips back into the insulation, or it freezes there until spring, and then drips back on the insulation in large quantities. When it condenses in the insulation, it destroys the ability of the insulation to keep the house warm. The solution is to make the house as tight as possible, using a vapor barrier on the warm side of the insulation. Then, to prevent moisture build-up inside the home, see the next paragraph. You get a moisture build-up in the home from people breathing, cooking, etc, and you get condensation from the moisture in the home onto cooler surfaces, like windows, walls and ceilings. This is especially true when you make the home tighter, reducing the amount of air flow through a home. You can make or purchase an air-to-air heat exchanger, made of coroplast (looks like corrogated cardboard, but is made of plastic). Layers of coroplast are glued together with alternating layers in opposite directions (so half the little tunnels run one way, and half at a 90-degree angle), and then sealed in a box, which is built into a wall. When warm, moist air is pushed out of the house (by a fan) through one set of cores, it draws cool, dry air through the other set, and the warm air warms up the cool air as they pass. Sounds complicated. Isn’t really. Take several squares of corrugated cardboard and stick them together, and you will see how it will work. Types of insulation: 1) Fiberglass, also known as rock wool…This comes in batts and rolls and is sometimes ground up for blowing. In some areas, you can get it in batts with kraft paper backing and in rolls with kraft paper backing or with a plastic sheath (i.e., vapor barrier…also keeps it from making you itchy). 2) Cellulose fiber, also known as ground up newsprint (treated with borax to make it insect-proof and fire-retardant). Usually blown into attics, crawl spaces and the hollow parts of walls. MUCH cheeper than anything else, at least where I live, and just as effective, but not very risistant to water. 3) Some new stuff that looks like fiberglass, but doesn’t make you itchy…more expensive. Sorry, I don’t know what it is called. 4) Rigid foam insulation (i.e., styrofoam and its cousins). Much more expensive than other forms, but sometimes the only thing to use. 5) There are a variety of other things out there…from wood shavings (common about 1920) and a sort of thick cardboard to recycled plastic bottles stacked up like bricks (for the excentric inventor/recycler type). You make your decisions, based on what you can afford and what’s available/what you like. Now, about amounts…. In Northern Canada, you should plan on arriving at R20-R80 in the walls and R40-R100 in the attic and floor. In warmer climates, it doesn’t make sense to spend as much on insulation, but the point is that most people don’t put enough insulation in their homes. If you go for higher amounts than required, it takes longer to get your money back. My cousin built his house in Southern Saskatchewan with r-factors on the high end of this scale. With temperatures running in the minus 40 degree range, his heating bill was running less than $20/month (Canadian dollars). The utility company changed the meters 4 times, figuring something had to be wrong! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hello, > I am new to the whole central heating thing as I come from Tropical > Australia and now find myself in Yorkshire UK (not the best place to get > into Solar energy). > I have just purchased a house with central heating radiators in every room > run by a combi boiler.  I have checked the alignment of the house and the > roof lines are any way but facing the sun.  (three flat surfaces facing > approx West, North, East)  My neighbour has the roof that faces the sun. I > have looked in the loft and there seems to be 1-2 inches of insulation with > a slate roof (no felt) above.  I have a small yard which has a 6 foot fence > which faces the sun.  I could possibly have solar collectors along it but it > would be separated from the house and could be shadowed by the house in > winter. > My dilemma is Insulate the house first then look for solar solutions? > Where can I get insulation that is not fibreglass and horrible to work > with?  What is the proper way to board out a loft with insulation under the > boards? > Finally I hate mould and cold drafts so I am interested in Mechanical > ventilation.  Can this be incorporated into Solar heat systems. > If I expecting savings I need to calculate on 4 year pay back.  I plan on > renting > the house after that.  Comfort and environment are more important that cost. > I also would rather spend a little more knowing I am not wasting as much > energy. > This is a little of topic but my news feed doesn’t seem to have a better > news topic. > Well if you get this far Thanks for you time any thoughts or comments will > be happily received. > DnA

Response:

1    No windows right. 2    The high amount of air exchange to keep the moisture level down and fresh air in would require an air heat exchanger and you would still lose a lot of heat. My air out was still very warm most only recover 40% or less.  Warm bodies, cooking, house plants and bathing add alot of H2O. You would need a major dehumidifier  $$$ and power!   Mold is a really big problem.   The first Solar house I built needed to be openned up after I noticed fog on the windows all the time . . . . . 3    Solar heating is the cheapest form of energy out there – storing it might be a little more costly because of it’s low concentration but still . . . . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I grew up in Northern Canada, and had an uncle who was a research > scientist, dealing with this sort of stuff. He drew me a set of plans > for  a house, to be built in that climate, which wouldn’t require any > furnace….just lots of insulation. > According to him, the two top items were insulation and vapor barrier. > Solar heat is nice, but too expensive to collect. Basically, if you > can keep the air from moving through the house, carrying heat away > with it, and if you can keep heat from radiating away from the house, > then the heat from warm bodies, light bulbs, cooking and bathing will > keep the house warm. > There are several challenges along the way…. > 1) retrofitting > 2) moisture > 3) types of insulation > 4) amount of insulation > Retrofitting is putting insulation in the house after it is built. You > can tear walls out and install insulation, blow insulation in through > holes that you have to repair, or build "dummy" walls on the outside, > and install insulation between the real wall and the dummy. In the > attic (loft), the easiest thing to do is blow insulation into the > attic, followed by laying batts of fiberglass on the floor, followed > by insulating between the rafters. Insulating under the floor is one > of the most difficult, unless you can just blow the entire crawl space > full. If you have a basement, you can insulate the basement walls, or > insulate the floor above the basement, and leave the basement cold. If > your house is built on a concrete slab, you can dig a trench and > install a rigid foam heat barrier, which won’t insulate the floor, but > will trap much of the heat in the ground under the house. > Moisture is a problem in two ways. The first problem is moisture > build-up in attic, walls and floor. Escaping air carries moisture, and > that moisture condenses on the first cool surface it finds, which is > often the underside of the roof and the outer third of the insulation. > When it condenses on the roof, it drips back into the insulation, or > it freezes there until spring, and then drips back on the insulation > in large quantities. When it condenses in the insulation, it destroys > the ability of the insulation to keep the house warm. The solution is > to make the house as tight as possible, using a vapor barrier on the > warm side of the insulation. Then, to prevent moisture build-up inside > the home, see the next paragraph. > You get a moisture build-up in the home from people breathing, > cooking, etc, and you get condensation from the moisture in the home > onto cooler surfaces, like windows, walls and ceilings. This is > especially true when you make the home tighter, reducing the amount of > air flow through a home. You can make or purchase an air-to-air heat > exchanger, made of coroplast (looks like corrogated cardboard, but is > made of plastic). Layers of coroplast are glued together with > alternating layers in opposite directions (so half the little tunnels > run one way, and half at a 90-degree angle), and then sealed in a box, > which is built into a wall. When warm, moist air is pushed out of the > house (by a fan) through one set of cores, it draws cool, dry air > through the other set, and the warm air warms up the cool air as they > pass. Sounds complicated. Isn’t really. Take several squares of > corrugated cardboard and stick them together, and you will see how it > will work. > Types of insulation: > 1) Fiberglass, also known as rock wool…This comes in batts and rolls > and is sometimes ground up for blowing. In some areas, you can get it > in batts with kraft paper backing and in rolls with kraft paper > backing or with a plastic sheath (i.e., vapor barrier…also keeps it > from making you itchy). > 2) Cellulose fiber, also known as ground up newsprint (treated with > borax to make it insect-proof and fire-retardant). Usually blown into > attics, crawl spaces and the hollow parts of walls. MUCH cheeper than > anything else, at least where I live, and just as effective, but not > very risistant to water. > 3) Some new stuff that looks like fiberglass, but doesn’t make you > itchy…more expensive. Sorry, I don’t know what it is called. > 4) Rigid foam insulation (i.e., styrofoam and its cousins). Much more > expensive than other forms, but sometimes the only thing to use. > 5) There are a variety of other things out there…from wood shavings > (common about 1920) and a sort of thick cardboard to recycled plastic > bottles stacked up like bricks (for the excentric inventor/recycler > type). > You make your decisions, based on what you can afford and what’s > available/what you like. Now, about amounts…. > In Northern Canada, you should plan on arriving at R20-R80 in the > walls and R40-R100 in the attic and floor. In warmer climates, it > doesn’t make sense to spend as much on insulation, but the point is > that most people don’t put enough insulation in their homes. If you go > for higher amounts than required, it takes longer to get your money > back. > My cousin built his house in Southern Saskatchewan with r-factors on > the high end of this scale. With temperatures running in the minus 40 > degree range, his heating bill was running less than $20/month > (Canadian dollars). The utility company changed the meters 4 times, > figuring something had to be wrong! > Hello, > I am new to the whole central heating thing as I come from Tropical > Australia and now find myself in Yorkshire UK (not the best place to get > into Solar energy). > I have just purchased a house with central heating radiators in every room > run by a combi boiler.  I have checked the alignment of the house and the > roof lines are any way but facing the sun.  (three flat surfaces facing > approx West, North, East)  My neighbour has the roof that faces the sun. I > have looked in the loft and there seems to be 1-2 inches of insulation with > a slate roof (no felt) above.  I have a small yard which has a 6 foot fence > which faces the sun.  I could possibly have solar collectors along it but it > would be separated from the house and could be shadowed by the house in > winter. > My dilemma is Insulate the house first then look for solar solutions? > Where can I get insulation that is not fibreglass and horrible to work > with?  What is the proper way to board out a loft with insulation under the > boards? > Finally I hate mould and cold drafts so I am interested in Mechanical > ventilation.  Can this be incorporated into Solar heat systems. > If I expecting savings I need to calculate on 4 year pay back.  I plan on > renting > the house after that.  Comfort and environment are more important that cost. > I also would rather spend a little more knowing I am not wasting as much > energy. > This is a little of topic but my news feed doesn’t seem to have a better > news topic. > Well if you get this far Thanks for you time any thoughts or comments will > be happily received. > DnA

Response:

>Warm bodies, cooking, house plants and bathing add alot of H2O.

About 4 pounds of water vapor per person per day. >You would need a major dehumidifier $$$ and power!

You might be surprised if you try some numbers. Nick

Response:

>Warm bodies, cooking, house plants and bathing add alot of H2O. > About 4 pounds of water vapor per person per day. >You would need a major dehumidifier $$$ and power! > You might be surprised if you try some numbers. > Nick

do you mean suprised by how expensive, or how cheap? thanks bob

Response:

> by insulating between the rafters. Insulating under the floor is one > of the most difficult, unless you can just blow the entire crawl space > full. If you have a basement, you can insulate the basement walls, or

actually insulating under the floor isn’t too bad. i’ve used two methods on our house: 1) where there is plenty of room, i took miraflex (ichless fiberglass), cut it to length, and put it up with string and a staple gun 2) where there was less room, my wife and i measured the width of the joists (at both ends), cut rigid foam to size and nailed it up with button cap nails. we did most of the house in two afternoons. now the sun shines through the windows and warms the house up. it stays warm longer when the sun goes down. if your floor doesn’t have insulation, that’s probably where most of your heating bill is going. in my case, computer models indicate roughly 1/2 our heat was exiting through the floor. bob south carolina

Response:

>> >Warm bodies, cooking, house plants and bathing add alot of H2O. > About 4 pounds of water vapor per person per day. > >You would need a major dehumidifier $$$ and power! > You might be surprised if you try some numbers. >do you mean suprised by how expensive, or how cheap?

Try a few numbers. Nick

Response:

Hi Insulation is vital in Yorkshire, as in my part of the world (Ireland). It’s worth putting in plenty of insulation, current reccommendations are of the order of 225mm of fibreglass in the attic, 150mm in the walls, 40mm + in the floor, draught proof, etc. It’s worth taking a look outside too, and if you are exposed to the prevailing wind planting a few trees as a windbreak. In response to your question re. insulation two places for ideas on alternatives to fibreglass are: www.kingspan.com www.actis-insulation.com (In French, & I’m not sure if it’s agreement compliant = if you can get it’s use certified) Both are more expensive than fibreglass, but both (claim) that vapour protection is included. Vincent Hussey

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> by insulating between the rafters. Insulating under the floor is one > of the most difficult, unless you can just blow the entire crawl space > full. If you have a basement, you can insulate the basement walls, or > actually insulating under the floor isn’t too bad. i’ve used two methods on > our house: > 1) where there is plenty of room, i took miraflex (ichless fiberglass), cut > it to length, and put it up with string and a staple gun > 2) where there was less room, my wife and i measured the width of the joists > (at both ends), cut rigid foam to size and nailed it up with button cap > nails. > we did most of the house in two afternoons. > now the sun shines through the windows and warms the house up. it stays warm > longer when the sun goes down. if your floor doesn’t have insulation, that’s > probably where most of your heating bill is going. in my case, computer > models indicate roughly 1/2 our heat was exiting through the floor. > bob > south carolina

Response:

I wouldn’t be surprised at all…one of the problems we had with air-to-air exchangers was that (at -40 degrees) we had a problem with them icing up and tearing a hole in the wall when they got so heavy they fell out….the last numbers I saw was that a 1" hole in the vapor barrier would leak about 5 gallons of water a day into the insulation. Of course, most of that escapes, but some remains trapped in the wall, especially when you are dealing with sub-ero temps. Vapor is definitely the big problem with a tight house.

Response:

> I wouldn’t be surprised at all…one of the problems we had with > air-to-air exchangers was that (at -40 degrees) we had a problem with > them icing up and tearing a hole in the wall when they got so heavy > they fell out….the last numbers I saw was that a 1" hole in the > vapor barrier would leak about 5 gallons of water a day into the > insulation. Of course, most of that escapes, but some remains trapped > in the wall, especially when you are dealing with sub-ero temps. Vapor > is definitely the big problem with a tight house.

Are you sure that wasn’t 5 gallons per winter?  I know those American gallons aren’t as big as the Imperial ones, but I didn’t think the difference was that big….   — Bert Menkveld

Response:

Question:

>I hope to add a Solar panel to heat water for my house, because of the house >design the top of the panel would be 2.1 meters below the hot water inlet of >my tank and 1.2 meters below my cold water outlet, the panel would be about >9 meters (horizontal distance) from the tank. >Meaning that the hot water "return distance" would be 9 meters slightly >inclined then 2.1 meters vertically.

So the total loop length is about 22 meters (72 feet)? >If the hot water pipe was well insulated would thermosiphoning work over >this sort of distance and set up?

Maybe. Say the tank is 150 F and you want to keep the panel 160 F max and it collects 68K Btu/h (2 kW) of sun power. Then you need a water flow Q, where 3600s/hx64Btu/F-ft^3Q(10F) = 68K, so Q = 0.0294 ft^3/s, or 14 gpm.   Water weighs about 63.74 – 0.0158T lb/ft^3, with T in degrees F. The density difference between up and down pipes causes a pressure difference proportional to the height of the water column. With 2.1 m (7 feet) of height and a 10 F temperature difference, dP = 1.09 lb/ft^2. Here’s a formula for laminar flow in a pipe with radius r and length L in feet and pressure difference dP: Q = Pir^4dP/8MuL ft^3/s. Mu is the viscosity, about 8.17×10^-6 lb-s/ft^2 for 150 F water. If L = 72′, Q = 0.0294 = Pir^4(1.09)/(8×8.17×10^-6×72′) makes r = 0.08′ or 0.96", eg a 50 mm pipe (or larger, with some fitting head losses.) The pipe would hold about 100 pounds of water. With 1" foam insulation (US R5, with k = 0.0167 Btu/h-F-ft), R = ln(4"/2")/(2xPix0.0167×72) = 0.092 F-h/Btu and RC = 9.2 hours. Over 18 hours in 70 F air, the pipe would cool to 70+(160-70)exp(-18/9.2) = 82.7 F. Warming it to 160 F every day would take 7.7K Btu (2.3 kWh), a significant part of the collector’s daily output… Nick

Response:

>> The pipe would hold about 100 pounds of water. With 1" foam insulation > (US R5, with k = 0.0167 Btu/h-F-ft), R = ln(4"/2")/(2xPix0.0167×72) = > 0.092 F-h/Btu and RC = 9.2 hours. Over 18 hours in 70 F air, the pipe > would cool to 70+(160-70)exp(-18/9.2) = 82.7 F. Warming it to 160 F > every day would take 7.7K Btu (2.3 kWh), a significant part of the > collector’s daily output… >So unless I misunderstand it would be far more effective to circulate the >water by pump rather than rely on thermosiphon?

Well, it looks like heating the water in that big long pipe would waste lots of solar energy every morning. A 2 kW peak collector might make 10 kWh on a good day, and 2.3 would go for pipe water heating. Reducing the pipe diameter would lower the storage loss but also raise the collection temp more than 10 F above the tank temp and lower collection efficiency. But I just made up these numbers. You’d want to refigure things using the actual loop length (is it all in 70 F air?) and collector size and height. Using a smaller pipe and a DC pump makes sense to me. Nick

Response:

> Yes, and very simply. Some use a DC pump, and connect the output of > the PV panel directly to the pump. That way it only pumps when the > sun is shining

I was thinking about this in relation to a garden fountain pump. What happens when the PV output voltage drops below what is required to run the pump, yet it still puts out current?  Would the current to a stalled pump damage anything?  How do you size the PV panel to a pump to minimize problems? And, does anyone offer a pond kit that is solar powered? Rex Burkheimer

Response:

http://www.voltscommissar.net/minimax/minimax.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I hope to add a Solar panel to heat water for my house, because of the house > design the top of the panel would be 2.1 meters below the hot water inlet of > my tank and 1.2 meters below my cold water outlet, the panel would be about > 9 meters (horizontal distance) from the tank. > Meaning that the hot water "return distance" would be 9 meters slightly > inclined then 2.1 meters vertically. > If the hot water pipe was well insulated would thermosiphoning work over > this sort of distance and set up? > if not would a small solar powered pump work? > TIA.

Response:

http://www.voltscommissar.net/K4/kernkraft.htm http://www.voltscommissar.net/minimax/minimax.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I hope to add a Solar panel to heat water for my house, because of the house > design the top of the panel would be 2.1 meters below the hot water inlet of > my tank and 1.2 meters below my cold water outlet, the panel would be about > 9 meters (horizontal distance) from the tank. > Meaning that the hot water "return distance" would be 9 meters slightly > inclined then 2.1 meters vertically. > If the hot water pipe was well insulated would thermosiphoning work over > this sort of distance and set up? > if not would a small solar powered pump work? > TIA.

Response:

I sell this solar pump and controller. Automatically changes speed depending on the sun intensity and has anti stall characteristics. They aint cheap though….400USD including controller. 70GPH. 12V PV panel input. use A 20w PANEL. I have these too – 337USD. THis is the coolest and most reliable solution. I have bigger models and all the specifications somewhere. Let me know–

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There is a German company, the name of which escapes me but I can tell you > tomorrow if you are interested, that makes a pump controller.  Takes the > output from the pv panel and controls the pump.  This eliminates any > problems that might occur with a stalled pump. The one we have on it is a > Grundfoss 12v dc central heating pump.  Been running for years without > problems.  Its also a differential controller but normally if there is > enough power to run the pump the water in the panels is hotter than the > storage tank. > Regards, > Stuart Hudson > > Yes, and very simply. Some use a DC pump, and connect the output of > > the PV panel directly to the pump. That way it only pumps when the > > sun is shining > I was thinking about this in relation to a garden fountain pump. > What happens when the PV output voltage drops below what is required to > run > the pump, yet it still puts out current?  Would the current to a stalled > pump damage anything?  How do you size the PV panel to a pump to minimize > problems? > And, does anyone offer a pond kit that is solar powered? > Rex Burkheimer

Response:

20w for $337 US? ROFLMAO — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages – http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation – http://www.webconx.com/x10 (212) 894-3704 x3154 – voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I sell this solar pump and controller. Automatically changes speed depending > on the sun intensity and has anti stall characteristics. They aint cheap > though….400USD including controller. 70GPH. 12V PV panel input. use A 20w > PANEL. I have these too – 337USD. THis is the coolest and most reliable > solution. I have bigger models and all the specifications somewhere. > Let me know– > There is a German company, the name of which escapes me but I can tell you > tomorrow if you are interested, that makes a pump controller.  Takes the > output from the pv panel and controls the pump.  This eliminates any > problems that might occur with a stalled pump. The one we have on it is a > Grundfoss 12v dc central heating pump.  Been running for years without > problems.  Its also a differential controller but normally if there is > enough power to run the pump the water in the panels is hotter than the > storage tank. > Regards, > Stuart Hudson > > > Yes, and very simply. Some use a DC pump, and connect the output of > > > the PV panel directly to the pump. That way it only pumps when the > > > sun is shining > > I was thinking about this in relation to a garden fountain pump. > > What happens when the PV output voltage drops below what is required to > run > > the pump, yet it still puts out current?  Would the current to a stalled > > pump damage anything?  How do you size the PV panel to a pump to > minimize > > problems? > > And, does anyone offer a pond kit that is solar powered? > > Rex Burkheimer

Response:

> > Using a smaller pipe and a DC pump makes sense to me.

So can anybody enlighten me — what’s the deal with smaller vs. bigger pipe? I built an expermental thermo-siphoning heater this summer, and it’s up there on the roof full of hot water, waiting for me to install a pressure pump in the house so I can actually use it. I have a ten-gallon tank from a little electric water heater, packed in styrofoam, and a roughly 4X2 ft panel made of 1/2" rigid copper pipe running back and forth under an old window I had laying around. One solid tidbit of useful information I’d picked up before (probably in this newsgroup), was about the placement of the top pipe, the one that returns hot water to the tank, being down a ways from the top. This tank conveniently had threaded fittings in the side in just about the right spots, where the TPR valve and drain plug used to be. ** I thought about the pipe size for a bit, didn’t come up with a solid rationalization, and just went ahead with 1/2" as a nice in-between size. I had considerend, hmm, smaller would heat up faster but more water would run through bigger and the water from the tank would get cycled through the sun more times. But I couldn’t make up my mind and I felt more like soldering than thinking. It seems to work as it is. I also wondered if there might be something useful about making the top pipe bigger or smaller than the bottom, because the water on the return trip has expanded or something…? ** For the pipes going to and from the panel, I have short lengths of 1/2" flexible copper, bent into big "U"s, because the panel is leaning against the front of the tank. After I monkeyed around with relative heights a bit, getting the panel low enough that there was enough of an up-slope to the tank, it started circulating splendidly (I started with clear hose for the connections, so I could watch for movement). The water gets pretty danged hot in there — much hotter than my black plastic tank batch-heaters of previous summers — making me wish I’d hurry up and get a way to actually *use* that water! Here’s another thing I’m wondering, though: would it be more effective with a steeper slant from the panel up to the tank? It seems like this would require a greater temperature difference between the high and low pipes, so maybe the water in the panel would "wait" longer and get hotter before climbing up? (times like these I realize how messed up and spotty my whole basic science education is) So maybe the question is whether it’s more effective to have the water circulate quickly — and get more of the total volume through the whole loop more times in a day, gradually heating it. Or to have it move more slowly, through smaller pipe or up a steeper grade — and have it get much hotter before being dumped back into the tank. Which way would be quicker, which way would end up with a higher temperature? I dunno. — David

Response:

>…what’s the deal with smaller vs. bigger pipe?

Bigger pipe has less resistance to water flow, so more water flows when the collector is warmer than the tank above, so the collector temp is closer to the tank temp, ie the collector is cooler when operating and it and loses less heat to the outdoors, so the solar collection is more efficient and the rate of solar heat transfer into the tank is higher. But, if the pipe is too big or the collector holds too much water, system efficiency suffers because lots of water cools off overnight and needs to be reheated to the tank temp the next morning before thermosyphoning flow starts again. >I built an expermental thermo-siphoning heater this summer, and >it’s up there on the roof full of hot water, waiting for me to install a >pressure pump in the house so I can actually use it. I have a ten-gallon >tank from a little electric water heater, packed in styrofoam, and a >roughly 4X2 ft panel made of 1/2" rigid copper pipe running back and >forth under an old window I had laying around.

With 8 ft^2, you might collect about 4K Btu/day in wintertime, enough to heat 4K/(8lb/gx(110F-60 F)) = 10 gallons of water from 60-110 F, enough for a 3 minute 3 gpm shower, but it sounds like the copper pipe may not have a good thermal connection to a conductive absorber plate. If so, it would only absorb heat from the sun that shines on its small surface, and a little more from the hot air inside the box. >…would it be more effective with a steeper slant from the panel up >to the tank?

Maybe "yes," because that might mean less overall pipe length, hence less resistance to flow. The only pressure driving the flow is the temp difference times the vertical height difference (the horizontal distance just adds flow resistance.) >…maybe the question is whether it’s more effective to have the water >circulate quickly — and get more of the total volume through the whole >loop more times in a day, gradually heating it. Or to have it move more >slowly, through smaller pipe or up a steeper grade — and have it get >much hotter before being dumped back into the tank.

The first way seems better. Hotter water loses more heat to the outdoors through the collector and piping. Bigger pipe keeps the collector and pipe temps lower and maximizes the daily solar energy collection and tank temp. Nick

Response:

> Bigger pipe has less resistance to water flow, so more water flows > when the collector is warmer than the tank above, so the collector > temp is closer to the tank temp, ie the collector is cooler when > operating and it and loses less heat to the outdoors, so the solar > collection is more efficient and the rate of solar heat transfer > into the tank is higher. > But, if the pipe is too big or the collector holds too much water, > system efficiency suffers because lots of water cools off overnight > and needs to be reheated to the tank temp the next morning before > thermosyphoning flow starts again.

Thank you! > [....] but it sounds like the copper pipe may not have a good thermal > connection to a conductive absorber plate. If so, it would only absorb > heat from the sun that shines on its small surface, and a little more from > the hot air inside the box.

I made a bit of an effort in this direction: the backing in the box is a piece of pretty heavy-gauge sheet steel, and I used a bunch of those little copper strap doohickeys and rivets to hold the pipe down to it fairly tight. There’s still space, though, so I don’t know how effective it is. I wonder if there’s some kind of goo I could glurp into those gaps… (Whole works is painted black together, of course.) > [....] The only pressure driving the flow is the temp difference times the > vertical height difference (the horizontal distance just adds flow > resistance.) > [....] Hotter water loses more heat to the outdoors through the collector > and piping. Bigger pipe keeps the collector and pipe temps lower and > maximizes the daily solar energy collection and tank temp.

Again, thanks for the useful explanations. — David

Response:

>…the backing in the box is a piece of pretty heavy-gauge sheet steel,

Steel isn’t a great heat conductor. For good solar collection efficiency, you might (arbitrarily) try making the back plate thick enough that the thermal resistance from the plate to the air in the box is ten times the resistance between the plate and a tube, measured from the line halfway between the tubes. If the resistance from plate to still air is US R0.7, with a perfect thermal connection between the tubes and the plate and a 1′ tube spacing, the plate needs R0.07 max across a 6" width with a 1′ length and a d inch thickness, ie a d/12 ft^2 cross sectional area. Steel has a 26 Btu/h-F-ft thermal conductance, ie R0.0032 per inch, ie R0.019 for a square foot 6" thick, so we need 0.07 = 0.019/A or A = 0.27 ft^2 = d/12, ie d = 3.25", ie a steel plate 3.25" thick… Remember that thermal mass problem? Steel has about the same specific heat by volume as water. Reheating a square foot of steel 3" thick from 40 to 120 F every morning takes about 1×3/12ft^3×64Btu/F-ft^3(120-40) = 1280 Btu, ie about 5 hours of full sun before the collector starts to supply useful heat. Copper has a 226 Btu/h-F-ft conductance, so a copper plate would only have to be 26/226×3.25 = 0.37" thick. Of course you could decrease the tube spacing. >I used a bunch of those little copper strap doohickeys and rivets >to hold the pipe down to it fairly tight. There’s still space, though, >so I don’t know how effective it is. I wonder if there’s some kind >of goo I could glurp into those gaps…

Solder it down? Or maybe use some of that hard black high temp furnace cement, vs the kind with fibers. Or maybe some mortar, or sand and "water glass" (sodium silicate.) Anything’s better than air. Or make your collector a flat shallow water trough under a Mylar film concentrating parabolic reflector Nick

Response:

>me: >I used a bunch of those little copper strap doohickeys and rivets >to hold the pipe down to it fairly tight. There’s still space, though, >so I don’t know how effective it is. I wonder if there’s some kind >of goo I could glurp into those gaps… > Solder it down? Or maybe use some of that hard black high temp furnace > cement, vs the kind with fibers.

Good idea. That stuff that comes in a caulking tube and hardens into a sort of brittle ceramic crust – at least on the woodstove it does, maybe hitting it with a torch would set it up nicely? – I’ll try that next time I take the thing all apart. (When I said my backing was pretty heavy steel, I meant sheet metal of a pretty stiff gauge – not some kind of heavy plate. It was just the thing closest to the right size, that offered a bit of structural rigidity, that I had laying in my boneyard.) — David

Response:

> [....] but it sounds like the copper pipe may not have a good thermal > connection to a conductive absorber plate. If so, it would only absorb > heat from the sun that shines on its small surface, and a little more from > the hot air inside the box. > I made a bit of an effort in this direction: the backing in the box is a > piece of pretty heavy-gauge sheet steel, and I used a bunch of those > little copper strap doohickeys and rivets to hold the pipe down to it > fairly tight. There’s still space, though, so I don’t know how effective > it is. I wonder if there’s some kind of goo I could glurp into those > gaps… (Whole works is painted black together, of course.)

        There is a "Goo" specifically made for this! It’s called "heat transfer compound" and is used extensively in the plastics industry for improving the heat transfer between heater bands and extrusion machine flanges.           http://www.nphheaters.com/products/products.htm These guys should have what you are looking for or be able to point you in the right direction. David W. Beard

Response:

Question:

I am considering putting a wood stove or pellet stove in my basement to cut down on my natural gas bill. I have a free flue in my chimney and figure to cut a vent in the floor above the stove.Any pointers or comments would be appreciated. Thanks Jim

Response:

Radiant heaters in basements do not heat upper floors very well; the best place is on the first floor.  Or consider a pellet furnace, connected to ductwork. Bill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am considering putting a wood stove or pellet stove in my basement to cut > down on my natural gas bill. I have a free flue in my chimney and figure to cut > a vent in the floor above the stove.Any pointers or comments would be > appreciated. > Thanks > Jim

Response:

how does the price of wood/pellets compare to natural gas in your area? If you have your own woodlot, wood is a great fuel. If you have to pay someone else to cut, split, deliver, stack, well, the difference is not that great. — Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages – http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages – http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation – http://www.webconx.com/x10 (212) 894-3704 x3154 – voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am considering putting a wood stove or pellet stove in my basement to cut > down on my natural gas bill. I have a free flue in my chimney and figure to cut > a vent in the floor above the stove.Any pointers or comments would be > appreciated. > Thanks > Jim

Response: